Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Cleo Wade

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

New York Times Bestselling Author, philosopher, poet, public speaker and culture mover Cleo Wade joins Joel Madden on the latest episode of Artist Friendly. Following her books What the Road Said, Heart Talk, and Where to Begin, which turned Wade into a New York Times bestselling author, she has returned with Remember Love: Words for Tender Times. The stirring collection of poetry and prose, which arrives on shelves Oct. 17, urges readers that love is an essential feeling — and one that they should embrace when challenged by change.  Wade will also embark on a short book tour on Oct. 13, hitting major cities like LA, Brooklyn, and New Orleans, among others. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to New York Times best-selling author, poet, co-host of the Goop podcast, and my very good friend, Cleo Wade, her new book, Remember Love, is out now. We'll be talking about that and a whole lot more. Let's go. first of all, I was Starstruck coming in this office. Why? Seeing all of the good Charlotte stuff and then seeing like, I don't know, just I haven't been, I think in a post-COVID world, I just don't go into the energy of other environments that are like have nothing to do with what I do at all anymore. And so for me, I was like, oh my God. Like I haven't been to a studio or like where there's just like musicians and this and that.

And it's just such a kind of creative hub here. like you're really live it when you're here and I think that's really cool. I think we forget all the time how like lucky we are to just be in this like environment full of creative people and to be a part of so many other people's different creative success and journey and also as an older guy you always look at success is different than maybe the younger people will. So they may even not feel like they're successful yet, but they are successful. just knowing what you know and how hard it is to make it, like you get to watch people on their journey and like trying every day.

Yeah. And like failing and winning. And so for me, it's like every little win matters because it's like it's almost like with kids. They don't know how like dangerous life is and they do wild shit. And you're like, God damn, you don't even realize like how you're walking a tight road. Yeah. That's kind of like I feel like artists don't. don't realize how hard it is to make it. And when they do have these little wins, you're like,

wow. Yeah. And I think if enthusiasm is something you could bottle, it would be the most valuable thing for any creative space. And so it's actually like the enthusiasm that comes with youth is really the most kind of unfuck withable energy because it really has the ability to shift an entire room. And there's so many people who like, you know, as performers, I feel like it's their, you know, enthusiasm to me is kind of, it's like an exclamation point on gratitude. And so to be in witness of that, I think you always notice that when you're, as someone who's not the person who's ever on a stage, I'm the viewer, when you're the witnesser, the thing I think that really kind of inspires you or fills you up or kind of gives you the enthusiasm. You know, the

enthusiasm too is that high, high key enthusiasm, which is really just gratitude. And I think that's what's really cool. And there's just really specific forms of that when you're young. And then it shifts and changes so much as you get older because you have different types of things you're grateful for. Well put. You must be a writer. Poet in the house.

I say that all the time here. Then energy and then like what you could say is naive. kind of the naivete or whatever of like a young person, young artist with that optimism and enthusiasm, I'll take that all day over a bunch of other things. If they, I think you've got to have some talent, right? So there are definitely like cases of people that are enthusiastic

that could still make it too, by the way, even if they lack kind of some of the talent. But some talent, I think, is necessary hard work is super necessary, but that powers the hard work, the enthusiasm, the, the, the, I'm going to make it attitude. Well, and there's something in that where someone's taking a responsibility for their mood, and that's really important in a workspace. So like when I was a kid, I remember watching, and it truly impacted me in such a way.

I watched Say Anything. And there's a scene where John Cusack is talking to Joan Cusack. And I don't know if you remember this movie well, but he has like an overwhelmed sister who I think is like a single mother and she's really just like, ah, ha, ha. And at one point in the movie goes, hey, can you just get in a good mood? How hard is it to decide to be in a good mood and then just be in that mood? Just make the decision get in a good mood. And that actually, even though I was so young when I watched that, that's been a part of my personal work ethic, my entire life, which is that like, if I'm going to work, yeah, because I do think that it's like

my mood is my responsibility. Like the energy I bring to the room is something I have to take responsibility for. So like I don't care of like right before I walked in here, I'm on the phone being like, my fucking nanny canceled at 3 a.m. last night. And like I'm trying to figure I got like two people trying to watch my kids. But the second I walk in here, that's no one else's problem. Right. You know, you have to take responsibility.

And like there's whether you need the kind of ritual in yourself to be like, I'm going to take three deep breaths. and then I'm going to go in there and like be the person I tell the world I am when I go to work. And I think that's important. It's definitely like a persona that we have to like, we all have a persona. That's a real part of us. Like there is the best version of me. Hopefully like I bring that when I do this.

I bring the best version to me, the optimistic version. But there's definitely a version of me that's overwhelmed or like. like scared, anxious, whatever. Yeah, the human being. Yes. And as a human being, when we decide that we create spaces and groups of people with whom we, you know, either care for, you know, are responsible to because of whether it's financial agreements or relational agreements, we have to take responsibility for who we are when we enter community. So like we can be, we should, we can, we can, should and always have the right to be and feel however we need to feel wherever we are when we are to ourselves.

Right. But I think if we want community to work, if we want work spaces to be high functioning in ways that actually feel good, you just can't be a dick. Like you have to say like, and I think that that is actually a lot of the energy we feel now in work spaces where like we're really kind of reexamining what a boss looks like and what of this looks like and why this whole wave of people who are the heads of company are out and these new waves are in. It's actually, I think, people who are like, you know what, you can't, like, the whole room shouldn't be determined by your mood or your whim because you're not being responsible

to the group and that's important. Like the old days of like the Darth Vader boss coming in are like kind of over most in a lot of places. Because also I think like there's like the intersection of like social media in real life and work life, they all blend together now. So people like are exposed those types of behaviors. 20 years ago, it was totally accepted if there was like a Darth Vader boss who walks in and is like just like, shh. Yeah. Well, now our water cooler talk is public.

Right. So, you know, I was just saying this about someone the other day who like, someone did something and they kind of like, re kind of they did something that I think the public was uncomfortable with and then they kind of did something else that kind of like kept their their conversation going and I said I was like you know people are so afraid of getting like what they think is canceled which is really actually just the public being you know the public disliking something they did and they are uncomfortable they are uncomfortable being uncomfortable in that because most people who have public lives have a really kind of

tense relationship with being disliked. Right. And so the thing is, is that a lot of the times this, like, idea of being canceled is not happening. You're just uncomfortable because people did not like the decision you made. And what you have to spiritually do is let go of trying to make everybody okay with what you do and live in your own integrity, regardless of what this public water cooler conversation is.

That's, that is probably advice that like so many people should hear. because I see it all the time. We're in entertainment, so we have tons of friends who, everybody, it's weird in entertainment because for 20 years or so, you're in this space and you get to watch so many people and how they handle all the aspects of like, the balance of like, this is a entertainment brand to the world, even though it's a human. And then there's a real human who's living a real life,

and those things cross sometimes. Some people have really good ways of, I think, containing certain things or, like, balancing certain things. But, like, the world we live in now is it's all meshed up. But you, I feel like someone like you has a really great kind of bandwidth for people being uncomfortable with what they do because you kind of came up and out at a time where people were like, was that sticker they used to slap on the CDs? That was like.

A parental advice. Yeah. Like, when you came up, like, that's a thing. That was not saying that always existed. So, you know, that came out during your era. Yeah. And so when you lived in the time of parental advisory, like, you knew you were pissing people off. And by the way, like, to find your kind of tribe and like you're kind of, which is different than a fan base, you knew that you had to like just know you spoke to them and not like trying to make everybody happy.

But it also was easier because you couldn't hear everybody. Yes, you could hear the like one loud mom at Walmart who is like mad. But like you just didn't have to hear the whole conversation. And so more than more often than not, you were in person with your real kind of like tribe of people who love what you do and in what you say really speaks to them. And so I think, and you always knew you pissed those people off. It didn't matter. And but I think with now I feel like we really have this discomfort of like having to hear that

people are mad. Yeah, we do. We have to hear it. It's in our face. Yeah. And so I think that. And constantly, right, all day. Like your entire algorithm could be filled with like,

I don't like this about this person or, and I think that that's a real, I think that's like the real struggle for people. And I think that's where they kind of get the nuance of like cancel, canceled wrong. Do you know what I mean? Right. I guess I feel lucky that I was somewhere in this like weird space of like having the mainstream success in a way that.

you could experience what that maybe that pop sense of success would feel like. But then also coming from kind of a grassroots kind of subculturally kind of place. I think we, I don't know, I think we got lucky. And also those of the time. But certainly, like, it was always a conversation if what we were doing was good or bad or or that. And so like I and we also I think came up with lots of different people that were like misfits and outcast in their own way. And so I think we always chalked it up to feeling like we were just outcast or misfits. Well yeah. And there's always like the rebels that rise in popularity,

right? Like whether you're James Dean or whether you're you know, whomever. But because if your popularity comes via rebellion, you just don't overthink. what the people who will become popular because they're so palatable have to deal with. So I think a lot of the time what we struggle with in this like where people live in fear of what to say or what not to say, it's because actually they're popular because they've been palatable. They were never popular because they like rebelled against this idea or had something to say that was like fuck the system or turn it upside down or something, you know, in the vein of anarchy or this system isn't working or like these people are disenfranchised.

So I think, you know, whether it's you guys, whether it's hip hop, it was always saying like it was all species of like we're rebellion rose to the top. Yeah. You're a little bit of a rebel. I feel more of a, like a random than a rebel. No, you're not a random. You're, you're, you're, it's, it's, I was so excited to talk to you because, I don't know, you're like the, you're, you're, we've, we've, we've become friends over. the last like, I don't know, probably decade or so. You're definitely a rebel.

To me, you're like my friend that's like really in touch with like what's going on in the world in a way that like you, and I think it might be like your intellectual side. There's definitely like a lot of intellect behind all the things you do. Did you go to college? No. That's interesting. I thought maybe you went to college like Ivy League or something. I was to find you to be.

Yeah, I think you're really smart. Your brother went to college. Yeah, my brother is currently in Indiana getting his master's. He's a really cool guy. He's so great. He's cool. I love whenever we get to hang out. I know.

He's so soulful. But both you guys have like a similar vibe. I always wonder like, what were they like growing up? But you are this like New York Times bestselling poet, writer, artist. But you're also like, I don't even know how to categorize it. Because if I use the word woke, it would be the wrong. But like you are really in touch with like what's going on in the world, what people are going through. You care about, you care about all that stuff enough, but you don't inundate, you know, I don't find, so sometimes I definitely, we have friends in like politics or in like social causes. And it's great. I mean, the world needs

all of it, I think. But I sit in the middle usually and I listen to everyone and I kind of hear everyone arguing. And, and I feel like some people have taken that on in a way where they've, It occupies their, every thought, everything they say is kind of a mission to, that's fine. You know, for me, it's like everybody has their mission in life and their passion. Yeah. But then you're one of those people that I find to be really up to speed and educated in a way that's real. And that, but you're also like a real person. You can sit down and have a conversation and we could not agree also and like talk about it.

And like it doesn't feel like uncomfortable. Feels. Well, you know, I think everything is, you know, I think, and I know you'll agree with this. It's like, you know, as you, you know, when people say like as you get older, it's not about age. But what happens when you get older is that you have different types of relationships. Maybe you have children. Maybe you have different types of family structures. Maybe like the, you know, your.

parents are, you know, feeling more like your own children than your parents. Like when they say we get older, I think a lot of times people like to just say that it's say that as like a number, but really what we mean is the deaths and complications of our interpersonal relationships change so much as you age. And so I think for me, I, you know, as you get older, I feel like kind of how you get to where you get is more important than where you get. And I think in that, because like the how to me is always the connection to intention, right? Like, you know, if I'm, I was actually just writing about this the other day, it's like if we're trying to be efficient and we're trying to kind of sit here and say like, oh, I should have this app that will help me

be here and do this and do, da, da, and I can order this and I can save time here. It's like, okay, but like what are you like with all this time gained? What are you doing and why are you still exhausted, right? Yeah. And so I think for me, I really think about like how do we get to where we want to go much more than even like where we're going. So whether it's in a conversation and we're talking about something important, whether it's, you know, like the top 10 hip hop albums of all time or women's rights, which like all of these things are important and exciting to kind of dig into and understand and, you know, I want to kind of think about how are, how am I helpful in this conversation? And that doesn't mean passive and that doesn't mean that like, oh, I'm just trying

to be a peacekeeper wherever I am. But like, you know, when you come from places like where we're from, like, you know, where we live now, no one from my childhood is like the people I know now. And so I never really take for, and, and we go home too. So when you go home to Maryland or I go home to Louisiana, and those places still feel like home, although it's not where we would want to live full time now. It's like this kind of the like, whether it's like coastal energy or even just having the ability to surround yourself by like-minded people. And like work and family, to be able to functionally work at what you want to do and have a family,

you have to live in a place that you can do it. Yeah. And so I think when you have that. kind of one community is so different than the other, you just, you, I know at least, and I actually do feel like I can speak for you when I say this. It's like, we sit here being like, well, not everybody thinks that way. So like, I don't think we sit at a conversation. Because you know it. Yeah. And you were there and you like love those people. Yeah. And it, and I don't think you're quick to turn anyone into a villain. Like I think that, you know,

I, before I call someone a villain, I want to know their villain origin story. Yeah. Because like there's always a reason why someone went left instead of right. And I think that that's actually how we find empathy. And like, you know, when someone like a John Lewis or something said, you know, you know, when he was fighting in the civil rights movement that he just would envision all these people that were like spitting on him, kicking him, like beating him as babies. Like that was what he did. He was like his own meditation was, I envision you as a baby before like any of these belief systems like

caused you to be a be this way and that's how he like was able to kind of send them the kind of magical power that is love you know and so I think when you have these really you know like I of course we can sit and have this like really sophisticated conversation with all these people that believe all the same things about like gay rights or women's rights or you know civil rights or you know race relations whatever you still got an uncle like and you still got an aunt and you still got your whole family that is like struggles to be on the same page or really understand it or really get it and also have not, you know, whether you feel like they're spiritually right or wrong. Like they have valid stories for how they ended up with that conclusion. Do you know,

they have really valid reasons for like. To them anyways. To them, you know, because valid doesn't mean universally correct. No, it means. But it means that like if you went to school every day and this is who you were bullied by or these are your parents who didn't do this. And then you had no belonging, but the only place you found belonging was at this one job you had. And everyone at your job was this kind of political affiliate or whatever. That's, that's real. That like, if the only space you felt belonging was in this kind of club of like kind of sad ideals, that's real. Yeah. And like to dismiss that is to do a disservice to, I think, someone's humanity and our ability to find any type of common ground.

Yeah, and I think something like the amount of therapy we have to do to come to terms with the idea that like our family wasn't all the way right and they weren't all the way wrong. There was probably some things that were that were that they gave me that were good. Yeah. And there were probably some things that they gave me that weren't right. And sometimes you can see people a mile away that aren't functioning in that way where they're recognizing like it is. actually some of this is just a function of like I was raised in this family and this is how I was this is what my parents told me and this is like how I feel well in my first book I wrote and I might butcher it's like I wrote if you are grateful for where you are you have to respect the road that got

you there totally and like respect does not mean like it respect does not mean like that you're not going to struggle with like forgiving those who did not know how to love you well like you know that respect is still like you know there's there's there's deep like human stories and complications in respect, but like, and it's not joy and it's not like, you know, praise. But respect is a really, really important thing that we have to have for our journey and ourselves. And I feel like respect is that way that you actually do have that love that isn't like romantic love and isn't like, oh, I love you because I like you so much. But that love that's like in that wound, I can send love there as a healing.

energy. Right. And so I feel like, you know, when you think about that, like, if you are grateful for and where you are, and I know how grateful you are for your life and your kids and your family that like, and if you have true gratitude, that really deep spiritual gratitude for where you are, you have to respect that one thing that could have changed one different parent, one parent's different decision could have changed that road that got you to where you are. I totally agree. Yeah, I feel like that. I would say that in like everything that I went through, every bad thing, every mistake I made,

whatever it, you know, whatever the culmination of all that that got me to the place where I met Nicole, then we like in our own way, found our, found our way into like a family. And then we ended, you know, 17 years almost later, here we are. not perfect, but it's us. Yeah. And you're grateful. Totally. And gratitude kind of, I think, is like supersedes like a good or a bad day.

Do you know what I mean? And that's why I always say that gratitude is a spiritual energy because it's something that is like, no matter what's going on with the body, the soul is still there and always intact. Like, you know, whatever is going on in your mind, like the soul has to still be there. And so that's where I feel like gratitude lives. And it doesn't mean that you are bribing yourself from allowing like your worst day to be not that bad because you don't have leukemia. Do you know what I mean?

So you can still assess that like a bad day is a bad day and this sucked and I can, you know, you can give yourself kind of compassion and grace to move through it. But you're kind of underlying tone that like you know that in your, like you in your soul feel like fundamentally I'm okay. and for that, like, even being able to assess and, like, problem solve my problems is amazing. And so I think, I think a lot of the times people think that things have to show up for gratitude to be present when really, if you walk in with gratitude, it actually makes everything more manageable. And you likely will notice things showing up where if you're not in gratitude, you won't see them

showing up. So, and they're still there. Or you're creating problems because you aren't able to acknowledge gratitude. I was listening to something the other day, though, that there was like this, I think it was a Harvard study on like happiness. And like gratitude is like one of the main through lines of like personal happiness over time. And the lady that was talking about it was like, and she's a teacher somewhere too. They're basically like teaching people like the science of happiness. Yeah.

Which I also think that is the science of success and it's all wrapped up. But gratitude is like one of the number one of the number one mind frames of like personal happiness and success and teaching kids how to like grow up and have a happy life. Gratitude, the state of gratitude is like was like the main kind of theme. Yeah, it's crazy because they've made a pie chart of that before around happiness. And they say that basically like 50% of your happiness is your genetic set point. So, you know, some people do, you know, if you're prone to depression, it's there and you have to deal, right? Yeah, you got to work through it. And what's really astonishing is that only 10% of happiness is circumstance.

So like we often think as long as circumstances, like, you know, creates kind of this like fundamental safety, right? Like you're not really worried about your next meal. like you're not living in a great kind of like fear, harm violence, right? Basically to stuff. Yes. So, but the difference between like, oh, I make $80,000 a year and if I just made 90, I'd be happier, like that isn't real, like that in circumstance, right? It's a perception.

And so the other 40% is things you go out of your way to do to be happy. Right. And so in that I think people forget that whether they're like, okay, so find, I find flow state, right, which means I might try to like climb a mountain. because I just think I'm like, I'm not competing with anyone and I feel like, or I do my yoga or whatever it is that people do to get kind of out of their minds to flow, that's in that things that you do to be happy. But what I think people forget is your belief system is also what lives in the things that

you do to be happy, like that you go out of your way to have. So when you have a belief system that is like rooted in gratitude, which is that like I start my day feeling so grateful and like for what I have. and giving respect to all things around me. That is a huge part of it. And I think sometimes we don't understand how much our belief systems are standing in the way of us in our goals or us in happiness or us in the right relationships. Yeah.

I was thinking about why you were talking about one of the things that I really admire about you and that I learn from. and that I don't know if I'll ever have it. But I'm okay with that. You know, like, I think that's why you have, like, that's why friendships are so important because you have all these people around you that are influencing you and that you cooperate with each other to, like, have this, like, kind of like village of people. And that's why choosing friends is important, I think, in who you like, because you influence

each other. And breaking up with friends is important. Yeah, like the time might have passed, right? Like you grow and all that. But you are so good at sitting. I feel like anyways, you could go have a conversation with the, in the world we live in now, mostly we perceive it as being divided by like politics. I don't think that's true in real life.

I think it's true in our like digital life. Yeah. Right? Because that, but you could go and sit and hold your own in any conversation with someone on the far, far left, on the far, far right, and anything that they're where in between and they could have, I'm terrified of all of them. Like, I don't get, I avoid. But anyone living in a, you know, with zero moderation and how they're kind of perceiving

or moving in the world, that is scary because, you know, it's, there's not really room for anyone to be anything other than them. Exactly. There's no room for any of us to be there. this like this mixed bag, this mixed version of like of things, right? I come from a place with with people that feel a certain way. I live in a place with people that live over here. And I'm like in the middle and I'm trying to like live. I try to be in a reality where I'm interacting with real people every day and finding good in the world every day. And if we get into

any of these conversations that I've become, I think, dominant. in like our culture. And it's all entertainment, in my opinion. It's all people putting things out and testing them. And this, oh, this got a little spike in interaction. Okay, I'm going to go hard on this. And then they just start going hard on this thing. And then if you could almost track it back through people's timelines and see what

they're talking about in the moments. And they're just picking a hard, hard line on it to gain eyeballs and attention. And all of that is just the way of the world. I don't care about it. But like I am terrified of those conversations because I don't really like conflict. I will certainly stand up for something that I think is right or wrong in real time. I think someone's. I think also something I definitely notice about you is like you want the freedom to live in contradiction.

Like we all do. We all want the freedom. to not have to look at the world in black and white and see it in color. Like we all want the freedom to say, like, I like this genre of music, and that doesn't stop me from liking this one song by this one artist that I would never probably like that is an direct kind of conflict culturally with this other artist. Like we all want to be able to say, like, I typically eat this way, but if I'm in this person's house, I'm definitely going to have a slice of that.

Like, you know, we want to be able to live in our contradictions. That's freedom. And I think culturally, like, what's really interesting is that we just don't tend to orient towards freedom. So we don't tend to think about, you know, I was at a, I was sitting at a table full of women recently at a conference. And there was like, they were doing like those icebreaker questions. And somebody, the icebreaker was, you know, what's your guilty pleasure?

And to me, I just wrote like a really, like really bad movies. And every single other person had put a food. And I remember thinking, like I remember asking the table, like what does it look like for us to have like freedom, like psychological freedom from overthinking food to the point of it being like something we even attach guilt to or love to or comfort to or whatever? Like what does it look like to release that? because wouldn't we want to be free to just be like, this apple on the tree, amazing. I'm going to take a bite great.

Like that tastes delicious, like moving on. It doesn't not to diminish it, you know, and to really enjoy it in special occasions and with special people and all these things. But what does it look like to be free from that? And I was the only black woman at the table, I think. And I was saying that, I was like, you know, for black people and women in our culture, because, you know, slavery is so near. You know, it's, it's a, it's just, it's not that far away.

Yeah, so it wasn't like a thousand years ago. Yes. And there, exactly. And so there's still these like ways that, you know, for us, like this idea of like freedom being in the culture all the time of like, I just want to be free from this thing. And I'd say that in like people who come from poverty like or, you know, like, you know, or any type of like lower socioeconomic space, like regardless of your race. It's like you really think about freedom.

And I think, you know, for you coming from where you come from, you. I, what I feel the most when we're in community with our friends or in conversations with our friends is that we both just want to be free. Like, we want to be free to be like, you know, you don't like, you're not free when you can't, when you don't have enough money for food and bills and you're worrying, you're, you're so worried about your siblings and like how everyone's going to get by and how everybody's going to get out. And then when you do get out, like you want the freedom to like live a life, you know, and not have to be, come a robot or always live in that like churning of worry. And, and so I think part of why, because I actually don't

think you're that afraid of conflict controversially. I think you're, because you're so. There's certain conflicts I'm not afraid of. You know, well, because you're very like, I feel like you know yourself so well. So I feel like I always admire the way that you're like, doesn't, you could, you'll say to a group of eight who are all saying like, yeah, yeah, yeah, agree, agree, and you'll be like, I don't if I can agree with that. Dada, da, da, da, da. And I think that. In a safe space for sure, I'll be like, what are you guys fucking talking about? That's not reality. I always like your colleagues are laughing.

They're like, they're like, we are the safe space. Yeah. Well, yes, this is a safe space. This is a safe space for sure. I think it's like something like this. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings that I don't know. I know that if I know someone, we respect each other. So I don't think I'm going to hurt your feelings.

I think we're going to like disagree. Yeah. And, and love each other in it, right? Like, yeah, man, you're a fucking crazy. Well, and I think fundamentally you don't want to shame anybody. And I think that's a really, yeah, and I think that it's really hard in the kind of culture we have today to say like, you know, I don't agree with that and I don't like that. And you're still a good person. I think it's, and because shame is saying like, you're a bad person for thinking that.

If it's someone who doesn't have a platform, that's how I feel. If it's someone that has a platform, I only kind of have two speeds. And I think I lack sometimes the processing speed to be able to talk and express myself in certain spots where if someone's saying something that is shaming a whole group of people on either side. If it's like some super liberal person or some super conservative person, I really feel like I'm somewhere in the middle of both of them because there are sides, there are little details to arguments that I'll agree with. But in general, I disagree with the like whole conversation, sometimes the way it's now accepted how to talk to each other.

And I know exactly why they do it. And I know it's entertainment. And they're just like, like, but at the end of the day, I'll go to my other speed, which is just like C-red, punch somebody in the face. kind of that's how I feel like I just get I don't know what to do right now you're pissing up and it isn't even their viewpoint yeah it's the way that they're talking to the other yeah group of people but it's someone who's not taking responsibility for the way that they're in community whether it's with that exact group of people they're talking to or the effect that

what that their words have on a greater larger community online or on TV screens I don't like mean at all I'm really not down with mean mean spirited bully any bully vibe on any side. I get really, so it's tough for me. So for the most part, I stay out of it. But I agree with you, like in a sitting where we're all actually like expressing ourselves freely, I'll definitely be like the one guy who's sitting in a group of. And here, and I only say in LA, it tends to be extreme liberal, which I find myself to be super liberal.

but I don't agree a lot of times with sometimes that at all costs. Well, I think it's also, I feel like what rubs you the wrong way is when your viewpoints of being extremely one way allow for you or make you feel that you have the right to condescend to the other because like condescension is like one of the greatest like ruptures of people. So you just know that it's like, believe what you want, but you're actually taking away how helpful it is for whatever you want by like completely condescending the other because like you know there's nowhere to meet in that. And then I think also what ends up happening in places like New York or L.A. is people truly act like the other people don't exist. So like erasing,

diminishing, condescending the other side is, is honestly like is infuriating because you're like, okay, you guys, like, you know, I remember once. I can't remember what it was, but someone was saying something or something happened in the news where it was someone, maybe something around like, you know, a police officer, you know, killing an unarmed black man. I don't remember what is. And someone that's just like, I'm in New York and this like, I'm like kind of walking down the street with this like group and it's like maybe like some kind of like surfery,

downtowny, whatever. Yeah. And they're like, oh my God, I just like, that's so crazy. I don't know anyone like that. Like, where does that even? happen. And I was like, first of all, it's happening in the Bronx. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. But this idea that like you have, you are creating these kind of like bulletproof bubbles that you live in and then like ignore that like the other people exist is so deeply

unhelpful. And I think that can be really frustrating. Yes, it can be infuriating for someone like me where I'm like, what do you? But we all live in our own bubbles. We all. We all. all do. So we all have to just acknowledge that. Like, oh, you live in a bubble I don't know about but I want to know about it. I'm open to knowing about it. And I don't act like my bubble is the world and that is critical. So like yes to the bubbles, of course, everyone does no matter where you are, where you live or how much money you have or don't have or the color of your skin, your background, your religion. It's all, it all exists. Like we're all kind of, we're like nest builders as people. So we all have our own little nest. But to believe that your nest, your life,

yourself is the world is like a special form of narcissism that translates to violence inevitably at some point. You really have a way of putting things into words that I really understand and learn from. It is like when I go home and, you know, these, certainly I'm surrounded by people that are different from where I live now, and they'll say things about Hollywood. Yeah. Right. I get the idea when everyone says Hollywood, right? I get it.

I understand. But it's to group people together that you can't actually group together. Like, you can't do that. Like, it doesn't actually, it's a nice way of putting it, but like it doesn't actually make sense. Yeah. But I go, hold on a minute. I live there.

I don't live in Hollywood, but you would consider that I do because you say it every time I'm here. You say like out there in Hollywood, right? So I go, okay. So I understand. think I live there. But you don't know those people. You've never sat with any of the people that I certainly have spent the last 20 years getting to know. So now you're wrong. That's wrong. That's a blanket statement. That's not fair. And they'll hear me. The same way when I'm sitting

in, I'm here socially in L.A. and they're like the religious fanatics. I'm like, hold on a minute. That's not right. You don't know who you're talking about. You're grouping them all together. So like I do really actually feel like I understand when someone's representing a group to make a point in the conversation. But in reality, it's not true. In reality, like people are different. And it's not even true based on their experience. Because the thing is, like, you can, something can be true based on your experience. But if you have no experience with the group you're talking about, then you don't know. You know, you can't have just like Reddit and an Atlantic article or in the New York or wherever you're reading, like you just can't, that's not real.

And so I think that like, you know, you can't say like, oh, I just read about these people who did it. And I'm like, unless you know them, you really can't allow yourself to use them as a point for your argument to me. Right. And I think like Maryland gave me such a, it's such a unique place. They always say like Maryland is like this microcosm of the country because we have every extreme and we have all these little pockets that are the extreme version of something you have you have

the cities like baltimore you have dc you have so the whole dmv really if we say maryland virginia and dc right the whole area like people from there we all really have a real pride in it love for it we love meeting each other out in the world yeah um super proud of anyone in and they're doing anything but like there's so many different cultures there's so many different uh economic standings they're so diverse in so many ways and it's also like one of those states a blue state that had a republican governor for eight years very purple it's yes it is it's back and forth with like politics and everybody there can't agree but they can agree like it's interesting Like there is room.

There's room for all of us to have problems with one another, to have problems with the system, to have, and to want to express ourselves. But at the same time, we all live there together. I'm gonna'amena. And like my music, my hair can be changed with me and has to be able to be my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine,

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but I bet you this true I bet you when you were a kid you weren't aware

of like you were probably aware of like you know where people went to church or

whatever yeah but you probably weren't you probably can sit there and be like, go through your whole neighborhood and say, like, this was a Democrat, this was a Republican, and this was this. Like, you know, that is not, like, because ultimately when you do have spaces like, you know, that kind of northeast kind of corner of America, you're really reliant on your

neighbors and neighborliness. Like, you know, to me, I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, my babysitter canceled. I have to call my assistant. Like, but if I lived in, if I was in Louisiana, I'd be knocking on my neighbor's door. Just go and say, hey, real. Like, yeah, like, and you just would. And so, and that is just a different in the South is like that too. So I think also when you have limited resources and you don't have this industry of, you know, like it's so easy to pay to play.

Like you actually need favors. So you need like you need to ask your neighbor to do this thing for you. Like there's not just like some service you can call and like they're not, you know, places like New York, L.A. Or like, you got to owe people. You know, really wealthy places. Texas or whatever, you can just be like, call this service, have them did it out. It's just not like that there. I don't care what anyone does. I care about them not hurting anyone. I care about them getting to live a life they want to live. And most of the conversations when it comes down to like

issues or politics or of the moment, whatever the thing is and the things we all talk about in real time, whatever's trending in the world. That's usually my stance is like, to both sides. I'm like, what do you care? What do you care? You know, I wrote about this and remember love is like one thing I was wondering about is because we're obviously like on our devices more than we're anywhere else in the world. Yeah, that's our little world.

I was saying that like I was wondering aloud in the book, you know, is, you know, I was talking about how we're really hard on each other. And I was like, I wonder if we believe that everything deserves an opinion because we have a comment box under everything. Yeah. So like do we think, like it's just, there's just something inherent in that like we see that like leave a comment like that we can't just look at something and be like or like it or whatever that like actually this has needs requires

no opinion from me and no thought for me like this is truly none of my business and like wish you well happy like happy you're happy if you like it I love it like whatever but we really if you really felt that way you would turn the comments off right because even the people that are like like fighting against the comments, well, you asked for someone to say what they thought. Yeah. And you are not open now to hear that they don't agree with you.

Or what you've decided is that you're outweighing the cost benefits of the comments. You'd rather be like railed in your comments than not have someone have the ability to have comments because maybe that takes away from people being able to like it or share it or do it or whatever. So you are bargaining for that. But I do think that culturally we feel this need to comment on everything or have an opinion on everything because now our life is telling us there's a comment box that comes with everything you view. So it's like, should I have a comment about this camera? Should I have a comment about this art?

Because if I was viewing this. And then we measure in comments, like just by sheer number. We measure the success of something by the amount of people that interacted with it. And then the level of interaction is they just liked it or they commented. And then if they really like it, they reshare it. Yeah. And so you're like in that, do I look at every little thing and see a comment? box underneath instead of just being like, that's cool. And that's my only thought about it.

I'd have to, you know, so like am I being asked to have constant commentary when I don't even actually have real opinions or haven't even had time to contemplate on the things I would have an opinion on? You know, it's it's kind of like a toxic, non-sustainable. You're the best kind. I really, like, I really do have friends in like lots of different walks, right and and I love it I love where I sit I feel really so lucky to be where I'm from and then to be where I'm at and to have had all these experiences that like have shown me the world to and to travel the world and see like we're all the same everywhere you go people are seeking out the same things yeah but when I think of like a super because you're in my mind right when I think of you I

think of like this really creative or artist who's also a feminist in her own way, an activist, outspoken in really great ways. And you give a super modern liberal perspective when I say, when I'm, and when I say liberal, I'm just saying that in terms of like on the issues that matter, someone needs to share one one perspective. Yeah. And there needs to be perspective shared like with integrity and and with experience. And then to be able to share elegantly is a is a real talent. And you embody that in a way that I think is unique. And that's why I think you are successful.

And so like remember love your book, which I'm excited to talk about. I've been holding it the whole time. Oh my gosh. Do you think it'll be a New York Times bestseller? I think so. Yeah, I do too. I think, you know. It's a good book.

Thank you. I told you were my first male reader besides Simon who's read it. Because it's not. Shout out to Simon. Shout out to Sci, sorry. It's a great guy. Oh my God.

You guys are a cool couple. To me, all your writing is good. And I think it's like a lost art form. Poetry and writing in general. It continues to kind of be this like lost art. To think like I'm with a modern poet who, likely will create over the span of your life a body of work that'll be remembered for hundreds of years it has its place in in the like world of poets and writers.

I hope so. I know so. I just have I just know what I know, right? You're living in modern times. So you're giving, you're putting it in people are reading your poetry and I don't think they understand what they're experiencing because only history tells when we, look back on the philosophers and the poets of different times in the world. But I think it's really important. And there's just, in my mind, not a ton of people doing that art form, breaking through

to the modern audience, and also sharing philosophy that I think will live past and beyond. So that's such a strange space. You know, I think, I mean, I feel like my goal whenever I'm writing is to just be a friend. I think that like, you know, especially when I was writing this book, something that was, I was really deeply feeling culturally and in my own bubbles of our friends and people we know is that, you know, people are really grappling with change, like whether that was the change of going indoors to outdoors to things being, things, the world does feel very different. I think a lot of people kind of fell off track with like their goals or what they thought that their life would look like because, you know, the world.

They felt that they were three years taken away from them. And I think that even before that we were feeling really exhausted, really fatigued, like kind of just too exhausted to kind of care about anything. And so for me, I thought about, you know, the struggles that we're all having with change. And change is a funny thing because the act of change is easy, right? You know, it's really easy to sign your name to a piece of paper. It's really hard when that piece of paper represents. represents your divorce, right?

And then you're flooded with the feelings you have after like writing, after that symbol, that gesture, right? And I think that the thing about when you're feeling what happens when change occurs, not just the change, right? But when you're having to feel it, maybe you're lucky and you have a living room full of people who will sit with you and hear you and da-da-da. But, you know, as a night goes on, one by one they leave. And then you're kind of alone.

and no one escapes aloneness. I don't care if you sleep next to somebody every night or you live alone. No one escapes moments of aloneness. And if Nicole's mad at you? Woo. You are alone. You are alone. And so just like her and the cats.

Yeah. And so it's. They all are laying up on you. And so I think to me, I just wanted to write, you know, what I always hope to do. And even it kind of makes even touring difficult for me because I feel like I really write for people's most intimate moments of aloneness, like where you're just like there is no one else there and it'd be inappropriate to kind of try to call your shrink at midnight or try to have a friend come over or whatever.

It's like I try to create books that are your companions through life's challenges or tender moments so that you really aren't alone. And when I'm writing, I really just try to be, you know, who I am in this conversation. And like the highest compliment I ever feel like I get from my friends who read my work is like, oh my God, I felt like it was just you talking. And I always hope to not have that barrier for my readers where there's like a writer me who writes something and a actual me who says something, you know, in the living room with my friends. And so remember love, I think, is really just a book where it's like, if you feel alone, if you're in a challenging time,

just keep it nearby. Like, and there's something in there for you. Yeah, you are that friend though. You're like the, it's cool. You're one of the friends that you could have one-on-one conversations with in a group, but you can also hang out with one-on-one. And like not every friend is a one-on-one friend. Some friends are like better in the group and they're like really good in the group. Yeah.

And I also like I knew this conversation would feel like this because of the conversations we have in general. but also your books. That is, that it's really funny how you, how you, I never really thought about that, but it really does feel like you. But I will say also,

writers can sometimes be intimidating when they're, because they're generally pretty intellectual. And I think, and it probably goes to the, it speaks to like you didn't go to college, which I thought, I assumed you did. You know,

it's interesting. like writers can be really intimidating and especially me like intellects and people with the Ivy League experience which I think is really valuable and admirable and I if I could say I went to Harvard or I went to Yale I would love to be able to say that I went to Stanford I would love to be able to say that but I can't I didn't go to college barely finished high school so I get intimidated and most of the time want to enter into a conversation with them about anything that I'm interested in or because I'm intimidated with the intellect they bring to the conversation and they have experience in articulating that information they have. And I don't. And you're not like that though.

You're one of those ones that are like, you're so easy to talk to. We could talk about anything. I could be completely uninformed and there's room there for me to learn something. You know, it's so interesting. It's like, you know, because in my work I've, you know, spoken at like a, you know, public middle school in Brooklyn. And I've spoken at Georgetown and Harvard and all these different places. And, you know, Grace went to Georgetown. I didn't know that, but that's, that's cool. Boy, yes.

And so what I feel like I noticed from being in, you know, the time I've spent, you know, living part-time in D.C. or wherever I've been in my life, you know, it truly comes down to a difference of, like, who wants to connect and who doesn't want to connect. Like, if you want to connect, like, you're not going to allow your insecurities that make you, like, make it so that you need the room to know you're smart, be present. You're actually going to override that because you'd rather connect than be looked at as intelligent or smart or, you know, kind of have all of your wearing all of your honors on you. And so I think that ultimately what I would say the energy you're probably reacting to is someone who doesn't want to connect and actually wants to show off.

And so I think that it's not because I do, you know, you have so many friends from so many different backgrounds that are so unbelievably successful or specific or intellectual. And I think that like what I know is when I've been in conversations with you when we are sitting with somebody who's gone to Yale and Stanford, but has a desire to connect, like, that isn't present. But I think that what ends up happening a lot of the time is most people try to achieve certain goals because they, you know, or for example, Simon, who, you know, went to Brown and, you know, like, has never gotten an A-minus in his life. I'm not surprised.

But Simon wants to connect. Like, he doesn't feel the need to kind of show you. that he's like show you who he is by his accolades. And I think that that's just like a real point of disconnection for most people. And I think that that just tends to happen a lot with people who have, who really kind of like rooted themselves in higher education or in or their job or deeply identified with those things. Kind of defines them.

Because if without those things, maybe they wonder who they are. So those things have to constantly be centered. But I think they don't realize that, you know, what you do or what you do. did or what you've accomplished isn't who you are and people can really only connect with who you are. Like they just can't connect with like the degree you have. Yeah, but it says a lot about Simon that I didn't know that about him. I know. He's so smart. But that's cool because at the end of the day, he didn't lead with that over all these years. He hasn't led with that ever. And we always connect. We always have a connected kind of conversation and one on one when we're together always feels

connected. But it's interesting because I'm like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. But I'm not surprised because he's, you know, he's smart guy. On the other end of the spectrum, if you have a guy like me who always, I've in the past probably led with I came from nothing a little too much because it's like a badge of honor. But I wouldn't say that's the most important thing about me. Yeah. The same way, someone who, who had the Ivy League experience should be proud of it because it's hard work, and it is really valuable. And there's a lot of value that can bring to a conversation at the same token, the lived life experience of coming from one place and going all the way to another is also

valuable. And it's a different kind of education. And when you're providing contacts, you're usually doing it to connect. And so you just have to ask yourself why you're saying what you're saying for the context to connect or is it not? So I think that you could say like, oh, you know, when I live, the years I lived in Cambridge and didda-da-da-da, like what I really learned was this or this or this and that's giving you or I met this person there who did-da-da-da-da-da-da-da and it really changed how I viewed this politically or socially or whatever. That is someone giving context about their life experience to connect. But I think to kind of a lot of the times I think what happens is people want to like yield their like, you know, like a reel their opinions around. act like they're the most important opinions in the room because of their background. Whereas no matter what your background is, whether you're saying it because you're rich

or your dad was this person, you're this was that person or you went to this school or you did that. Like those are just, that's a really disconnecting way to communicate. Yeah. So. Is remember love your third book? Second book? My fifth book.

Fifth book. Because, you know, I have the kids book. I have a journal version of Heart Talk. and then I have my book Where to Begin, which was my TED Talk, that was a book. Do you feel like it's your favorite book? You know, Heart Talk, my first book, I remember thinking, I'm so proud that someone who came from where I came from and I'd been through what I'd been through wrote a book. And it was just that I wrote a book.

I never, that wasn't my dream for myself as a kid. And even if it was, I probably buried it because I didn't think it was possible. So I really couldn't believe that I could have a book. that I even could like gather my thoughts and someone would want to like go into a bookstore and buy it. That's kind of how I felt about our first record. Yeah. And so and then I think the other books that came after that, you know, my kid's book came like kind of flowed from this original thought.

But, you know, the other thing was like, you know, they were slightly derivative of heart talk the other two books because where to begin was my TED Talk and then a couple of essays. So it was not new. And then Heart Talk, there's like a journal version of that book. So this book is the first book I feel like I've written where I'm like, I am so proud of my, of everything I wrote in this book. I'm proud of what I wrote in Heart Talk, but it is just a little different. Whereas this, you know, A, this is a book where none of it's ever been seen before.

So when I wrote Hard Talk, a lot of it, people had already started to follow my work online. And so we kind of took things we knew people really liked and I kind of explored them more deeply. and what I'd also felt when I was writing Heart Talk is that I could tell that people were going to start to feel like they could only have kind of self-care offline. So I wanted to create a book that gave people the same experience of like kind of going to my Instagram page where they're like, oh, I find such relief there. I wanted to give them the space to do that and not be on their phone. So a lot of the desire to create Heart Talk was, this is for your bathtub. You know, this is for like I'm unplugging to reconnect to myself and I'm going to help you do that. in that space.

Yeah. Whereas remember love is, you know, also for that. But, you know, I wrote it kind of like none of it's been online before. None of it's been even now having people read it like you and Nicole. Only like my closest friends are starting to read it before it comes out next month. I'm nervous every time someone's reading it because I didn't have that. I mean, even when I was writing hard talk, I'd send things to Nicole. And she'd be like, love that.

Like no one really saw this book. And so this, remember. love for me feels like the very, very best I felt like I could do on anything. Like, and I really, like, even when it first came in, like, the copy you're holding, like is the first copy I'd gotten in the mail. Really? And I remember holding it and being like, wow, you know, I'm so, like, I'm so proud of every word in this. And it really took everything I had in me to write it. So it's just a different. It's so great. Honestly, too, for me, who I'm, I'm not a very good reader.

I'm not a strong reader. It's such a good book to jump around. And it's my kind of book. Yeah. And it really does apply to everyone. I mean, you could be anyone from any walk of life and anywhere. And the ideas in here are, to me, like universal philosophical ideas. If you can grasp them, it's a.

it will give, it's a, it's that gratitude idea. It can get you, one page in this book can get you on track for a day that you maybe like, there's this up, to love ourselves is to continuously reclaim ourselves no matter what, right? If you, if you read that in any moment in your day, it will shift you towards a more optimistic approach and, that to me is the key to success is optimism, is to go into something thinking I can do it and believing it's worth it. And we need that every day. So this is like one of those books you keep on the desk and you have a minute, flip it open, read a page. There's stuff in there that's going to shift you back towards the optimistic view. Well, and I think part of kind of

finding or connecting to optimism is in knowing that you have challenged. So it's like even when I wrote that thing of, you know, to love yourself is to continuously reclaim yourself no matter what. It's because we get hijacked. And I, and so there's actually the, in that I say like this is the thing that happens. I don't act like the world is like I don't, you know, I don't write. You can love yourself no matter what. I say like how we love ourselves is by reclaiming. ourselves. So, like, if I can person cut you off in the road and you're just like, damn it, and you're running late and you spill the coffee and did it out, like, there is a way to kind of reclaim yourself and say, like, I'm going to take a breath. I'm going to like kind of,

I'm going to give that person grace. I don't know what the fact they're going through, but like, bless you. I'm going to pull myself together. I'm thankfully I have another shirt like where I'm going or I have time to go back or whatever it is. But you can reclaim peace of mind. And in reality, like, that's an incredibly important skill set to have if you're going to be resilient and achieve truly anything. Is this ability to reclaim a moment, to reclaim a breath, to reclaim like a sense of self and a relationship, to reclaim like a positive thought about yourself when you're in a negative spiral.

Like, and so the idea of like to reclaim and reclaim and reclaim is, I think, critical to you know, survival that leads to a joyful kind of existence. Yeah, and we only get to be ourselves. So we're only living this one life. We don't, we can, we can try to escape it. And there's lots of ways to do that. But like when you come back to your real life every day in the body you're living in, this is what you got.

And so it is, it's a worthwhile project and endeavor to be the, best version of yourself to actually accept that you only get to be you and then to learn how to love yourself. That was the process for me. But then I think about it and I go, okay, for anyone out there listening that wants to be a writer, anyone out there that is trying to build something or trying to be better themselves, if their dream is to be healthier, if their dream is to be in a great relationship, or if their dream is to build a business or be an artist, whatever they're after, this all applies. But let's just say for a writer. So who, told this girl from Louisiana who didn't go to college that she could go out into the world

and become a writer and then also go to the top of her game, interact with people at the top of all these other categories in place from politics to arts to entertainment to all the teachers and all the experience I know you have. Well, no one told you you could do it. you had to just somewhere in you think, I think I might be able to do that. I'm interested in it. And then you lived your real life and did it over decades, which is, again, like likely when someone says, how did you do it? You're like, well, a lot of time and a lot of work and a lot of trying and a lot of failing

and a lot of not giving up. And a lot of the work that's done beneath the soil, right? So it's like, did you read that book to the kids, the one that's like, Harold and the carrot? They're like, his mom said it wouldn't come up. He watered, but he still watered the carrot every day. So-and-so said it wouldn't come up. His brother said it wouldn't come up. But he watered it every day.

And then like the book is like, it's a board book. So it's really short. And he's like, and then one day a carrot came up. And it's like, but it's actually like, and it seems like the dumbest book ever, to be honest. But it's been around for a hundred years. It's like a 90-year-old book. Yeah.

But, and he pulls out this job. giant carrot. And you realize that like so much of like dream work is done beneath the soil. And they're actually these like kind of root vegetables. So everyone who thinks that there's like an overnight success, they like don't see the like watering, the tending, the hard work, they're like wondering like what is going on beneath. Like will it come up? Will it come to fruition? And then, you know, like a potato, like a carrot. They all grow. I mean, I know I don't have to explain fruits and vegetables to Nikki Fresh's husband. But, you know, the, you know, the, you know, they all come up.

And then so this overnight success is actually people who like, the world only paid attention when you pulled the carrot out of the soil. Right. Because it grew beneath the sun, like with no light, with no visibility at all. And so I think that people... And it was really boring. Yes. And everyone said it wouldn't come up.

Right. And that didn't mean that they didn't love you. I didn't say like his mom and dad left him because it wouldn't come up. It was like they just said it wouldn't come up. And I think about that book all the time because for two reasons. one, it reminds you that like, if you want to succeed at anything, like, you have to be the one who determines your potential. You have to believe in yourself even more than the people who believe in you. Like, so I want you to take the person who in your life who believes in you the most,

and you have to outmatch them and outwork whatever that is. And I think that that is the only thing that will get you through to that, like, maybe I could do this. Like, that is the only mindset that will do that. Like, if you only believe in yourself as much as the people, who believe in you, like your potential is always in the hands of somebody else. And it's great to have the people who believe in you. But like your timelines will never be wholly belong to you. Your, like, your achievements will like always be like capped by somebody else. Yeah.

Even if they have the best biggest dream for you. Do you know what I mean? It's got to come from you. Even a, like, and you'll see that in like the, you know, the biggest areas of life where it's like a, you know, Mariah Carey meets a Tommy Motola or like you'll see these people who are there like, you know, they get to the point where they're capped and then you see the point in which someone's like, I believed in myself more than the person who believed in me the most. And that's when they break out and they actually just become wholly their own thing.

Even though they were still radically successful and amazing and whatever, but you do see the shift of when they own the dream themselves. Yeah. Yeah, and you can kind of point to that in every field. But I'm going to get you that carrot book. You have a really good way of putting it. Because I believe that. I think it's just the fact of people's success.

It's built over time. It's not overnight. And it can appear that. I get why it looks like it's overnight. I really do. Yeah, yeah. And when you like look at the carrot book and you're like the whole book, the care does not come to the last page of the book.

Right. And it's all about like they said it wouldn't come up. But he watered it anyway. Funny, I've never read that book. It's so crazy. You might just not remember reading it. There's no way someone didn't. It's like one of those like, you know, but for you, it would be like,

15 years ago. Yeah. But, I mean, it's a true baby book, like it's Biopi's favorite book, and it's a crazy book. I love kids' books. When does Remember Love come out? October 17th. It's exciting. I'm really excited.

And Nicole's coming on my tour. Nicole's coming on your tour. I wish you could come, but it's like right before you have a show. Yeah. So she's going to go with you and do it in Louisiana, New Orleans. More importantly, I wish I could come to your show in Vegas. I wish you could come too. so depressed that I can't go.

Because I actually, when it first came out, the flyer first came out, I sent it to Nicole and I said, if you don't take, because you know, sometimes Nicole will be like, I'm doing this thing and she doesn't tell anyone. And then you're like, I actually, like, you needed to have invited me to that. But I know it's your family. So you're like just like, oh, whatever. But actually like I needed that invite. It's funny with work and things around things that everyone else would be excited about.

she doesn't even tell anyone. Yeah. I'm doing this thing or can, like, and yet she will invite everyone to her birthday, which is like, I've learned a lot about Virgo's. Over this past seven years. I didn't even know Virgo was a thing, and then I met Nicole, and then I knew.

I'm wearing a Virgo necklace right now. Yeah. So you're a Virgo, she's a Virgo, Sparrow's a Virgo, Cameron's a Virgo. Amy's a Virgo Amy's a Virgo Josh's a Virgo

You're surrounded There's a lot of You and Benge Poor you and Benj And we're Pisces Which I didn't know What any of that was You're like all

You're truly surrounded Your most inner circle You're so lucky Just surrounded by Virgo's It's a great thing To be surrounded by But then you There are

Like I didn't even really realize these Virgo Things until I just like How do you know Someone's a Virgo? Yeah They tell you all the time.

Yeah. It's like, how do you know someone's a vegan? Well, they talk about it and they tell you. Constantly. They'll be like,

I eat this and I don't eat this and do, and da-da. And people that are Virgoes are, it's a real part of their personality. You guys had a great Virgo birthday. I'm still reliving it.

Yeah, that was a good party. That was so fun. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. This was so fun. It was really great.

It's hard because I really could, A, I could stay in this office all day. Well, do a part two after the book. Great. On the next book. I'll come on, you know, I'll come on the pod anytime. You know, I love this pod. Look at my sticker I took. Thanks, Cleo. Thank you. I love you.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Artist Friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support and we'll see you next time.