Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Darius Rucker

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Darius Rucker. With Hootie & the Blowfish, Rucker has lived an unexpected life by turning a college party band into a fruitful, chart-smashing career. Over the years, though, his Southern upbringing in Charleston, South Carolina called, leading him to ride out to Nashville and land a record deal as a country artist. It’s given him new possibilities, yielding anthemic hits (“Wagon Wheel,” “Don’t Think I Don’t Think About It”) and allowing him to share stages with his heroes. Rucker ended up documenting his country fame and accidental journey with Hootie, as well as exploring the music that shaped him, in his recently released memoir, Life’s Too Short. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to a singer-songwriter who's had multiple number one songs and albums in country music. He's the lead singer and rhythm guitarist of the multi-multiplatinum band, Hootie and the Blowfish. He's also written a book called Life's Too Short, Darius Rucker. Let's go. We like it when we do it, we like it. Yeah. Trying to figure out how to do it again, how to get ourselves cranking again. Yeah. It's hard to figure out how to tour, how to make records. Yeah, like, you know, hooty, we're going out this year. And it was, it's just hard to get that shit back on, you know?

Yeah, how do you coordinate everybody's families, everybody's lives? I actually think it's healthy, to be honest. Yeah. Like, to have things that you care about. Yeah. More than going out. there, even though it's important to go out there. Yeah.

I think there's a balance and I think, man, trying to figure that out. Like, we just literally started yesterday making music and it's a whole, I mean, we haven't really made music in six years. Yeah. That's what you mean. It's crazy. Like when we went out in 2009, we hadn't made a record. We hadn't been together in 15 years.

Wow. And then we all of a sudden we're going to go out on the road again. And, you know, before we went out on the road, it was just, the party was just us. Yeah. You know, and this, that nine, it was everybody had their families and their own buses. It was the first time we had done anything. But that's, when you get to our age and when you got family and stuff, that's the way to do it, you know. If you want to, if kids are young enough, take them all out with you, man.

Yeah. That's how we did it. Yeah. And especially if you want the family to work. Yeah. You know what I mean? I said, I remember when we took a break from touring, it was straight up because it was not working. And we brought the kids.

We were doing that, but it was hard. And my wife, she grew up on the road with her dad. So she wasn't, it wasn't like an exciting new thing for her. She was like, oh, God, here we go again. Here we go again, exactly. Yeah, I know what you mean. But I think it's good. I think on the other side of figuring it all out and everybody's different,

it forces us to figure it out. Yeah. And the great problem we have is that we have that luxury. Yeah. You know, you guys and us, we've had careers and we've been playing so long that now we have the luxury to figure out we're going to do it, and if you do it, let's do it great,

but if you're not going to do it, that's okay too. You can stay home and we're with the family. Yeah. That's a good thing. Yeah, there's a calmness sometimes when you trust the real thing. Like, let's do the real thing. If we're going to make a record, let's do the real thing.

Yeah. And if we're not going to do the real thing, let's just not do it. Exactly. I think that's why we didn't make a record for this tour. You know, this is the 30th anniversary through the first record. And, you know, there's always somebody in the band

who goes, let's make a record, let's make a record. Nobody feels like making a record. Right. We feel like going out and play some music, but I don't feel like making a record, you know. And when we made that decision, I thought, that was when I was like, okay, if we're not, if we're going to go play, let's go play. Yeah.

We can do, that's real. That's what we do. Let's go out and play some music. But, you know, like I said, we have that luxury, you know, and that's a good thing. Yeah, I mean, 30-year anniversary is a huge deal. so it is important. If you can do it, you should,

something about going out and celebrating this part of your entire, if I look at you as your entire catalog of music that you've made, there's all these moments that I think are important. And I feel like the Hootie and the Blowfish, the band and the records, they really had an impact on me. So I was listening to the radio when I was a kid. That's the only place I could get music.

And those songs taught me how to write songs. Yeah. I would put those in a, in a group of songs that I think really like in my early discovery of like rock music they really informed good songwriting yeah and then you just continue to write great songs that's just what you do for me i just think the songs are what it's about yeah you know what what the a lot of there's a lot of people out there that make it with with the sound and they have these songs that are okay songs but they they sound great but you know the songs are what lasts you know people still sing and let a cry you know that

That's the kind of thing that lasts. A good song is a great song. Classic. Yeah. Me and my brother have always said, if you can't sit down with an acoustic guitar and sing a song and it's a good song, then you should not record it.

You and your brother say the same thing I believe in my heart. Yeah. If I can't sit on the stage and play the song with just my guitar and not just for the arts, for me, and go, that's a good song that I don't want to put on a record. I don't want to put any... I made a vow to myself.

I wouldn't put any song in a record that I don't want to play for the rest of my life. I love that. Actually, never heard it that way. Actually, starting to record music, yesterday was our first day,

so it spun my head a little bit because me and my brother got together and we haven't written a song together in five years, four years. Yeah. Which is kind of crazy. That is. We do everything together.

Yeah. We're very close. But we got in yesterday and was a little bit of an arm wrestling match at first. Sure. Because we've written on our own. And just, you know, every now and then I'll write a song or he'll write a song.

But that's actually the mantra I'm going to take in with us over the next few weeks is if I don't want to play it forever, then we shouldn't record it. Yeah, I mean, because that was, that's, even when I record stuff, like, I remember I was recording a song and the producer was like, man, come on, hit this high note, hit this high note. And I kept going, no. And he was like, and he was like, dude, it sounds so cool. I was like, no. And he's like, why do you want to hit it? I was like, because I don't have to do that on stage every day. Yeah.

You know, and on that fifth night in a row, I'm not going to be able to do it. Yeah. And so I'm not going to hit it. But for me, that's really, that's been my, if I don't want to play it every night, I'm not going to cut it. That's why you're such a badass.

Well, you might have to play it for the rest of your life. Yeah. But it takes real self, I don't know if it's self-confidence, self-love, or just a fuck-it attitude of like, yo, I'm not doing that for the rest of my life, singing that note every night on that part.

losing my voice. We have a couple songs that I have to do that. Sure. We made it when I was young, and certainly someone got me to sing higher than I should have. Yep. We have to play the song half a step or a whole step down just for me to sing the song. Yeah. It's so funny how that works. Once again, that's a great luxury for us to have. Yeah. But we're going to be playing, like, we're musicians. We're going to be doing this. Hopefully when we're 70, we're still play music. You know, hopefully we're like Mick Jagger, 80 years old, still making me go, holy shit, every time he walks on the stage, you know, and if you're doing that, the songs, you're going to have to play forever. Yeah, one of the accomplishments, I think,

of your music is, is the timelessness of the songs. It's hard to say there's some bands you hear and you don't want to see that. You only want to see that with where it was at, what it was at. And I think we have a little bit of that. We tried to age. Oh, I think you guys definitely have. You know, and the songs that stand up, stand up. And then there are songs we don't play anymore. They do not stand up. Oh, we have that too. We're lucky enough.

Yeah. You know? Songs that like when we were doing a set list for this tour and I'm like, that's just one, I don't want to play that. This doesn't work. Didn't age well for me. No. Yeah.

You know, and it sucks when you say, I'm just too old to play that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to play that song. I'm just too old to play that. I feel that. Yeah. I'm not there anymore.

But then you have some songs that last forever and you want to play them. You can't wait until you get there in the set. You know, and you've been playing it for 40 years. Yeah. And you still can't wait until you get to that moment, it's that. Like people always, like somebody else with, people always ask, you know, what song do you hate playing? Or do you play, you know, especially the hits.

Yeah. And I say, none of them. I was like, when you start, when you, you know this feeling, when you hit the first chord of that, you, you played a million Gs all night. Yep. You played, but you, for some reason, you hit the G in that, you know, hit the G in that, and let her cry.

And the crowd shits their pants. That's it. And that's worth it every time. Every time. Every time. Every time. Every time. In fact, if it doesn't happen, something's wrong.

Exactly. What's unplugged? Exactly. We need to go home. You're like, what's wrong? Who pushed the wrong button? Because we just did. That's funny because I had the same thing.

There isn't one hit that I don't like to play because I see not only their reaction. people are happy. Yes. It's a great feeling when you see a collective smile that's 10,000 people or 15,000 people big or bigger, you know, or 2,000. It doesn't matter how big the crowd is. When you play those songs and those moments in those songs,

you can feel the collective joy, sometimes the collective pain, whatever it is. You can feel it. And there's nothing that replaces that feeling, that rush you get when you play that. I never get tired of playing the hits. I'll tell you, one of the great days of my life, we were making our second record,

and we did the Neil Young, the benefit he does. Brit School. Bridge School, benefit. We did that. And we were recording our new second record, and we went out, and I think we played, like, two songs off the first record that weren't hits, and then we played, like, five new songs.

And after the show, I'm sitting there, and I'm hanging out with Chrissy Hyne. And I'm a huge pretend. I just think she's the shit. Yeah. And I'm hanging out with Chrissy Hynde and a couple of fans come up and ask my autograph because before cameras, you know, pick the answer for my autograph. Before iPhones.

Before iPhones and everything. And so I give my autograph and one of the girls goes, you know, welcome you guys in play, you know, let her cry and we want to be with you. I was like, ah, we were just trying out some new songs whenever they walked away. And Chrissy Hyne turned to me and she said, did you guys write those songs? I said, yeah, we wrote them all. And she's in a very colorful way. You know, why the fuck would you not want to play them?

It's like you wait, you work your whole life to get a hit. To have a hit. And then you get to a place and you don't want to play your hit. What the fuck is wrong with you? And that day just was like a light to me. It was like, I will never get on the stage and not play a hit ever again. I feel the same way. I won't ever do it again.

It's a youthful mistake. Exactly. It's a youthful mistake to reject. Maybe it's the initial reason. Maybe it's the first. it doesn't matter. The first thing you did that people liked, you usually at some point in your youth, in your growth, you reject it. Yeah. No, no, but this is really me. And you're like, well, that's actually you. Yeah, you wrote it. And you were actually being honest there.

Yeah. You were trying your best. And the part of us that is naive, that we could see it as naive, or just young or full of it, and we tried really hard. And we were like, notice me, listen to my song, we would have done anything to get on that stage and have people just listen to our song. And then we make it with the song or the record. We get the, and then we reject it. And it's almost like we're rejecting a part of ourselves that was the best part of us. Like the part that was like honestly just trying to make it. Yeah.

Hungry. Desperate. Would do anything. Writing 50 songs a day. Yeah. As many songs you can just to get that one song. Playing any show. Any show.

With anyone. Man, you can. You know how it is. Those early shows, man, playing, you know, these frat parties and all this stuff. With anybody. They asked us to play. We will play.

Exactly. We'll open up for anybody and you only have to give us free beer. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get there and you said it's so perfect and the youthfulness of thinking, okay, yeah, we have those hits, but now, look at me now. Now I'm important. Yeah.

So I'm going to do this. Yeah. I'm not going to play any hits. And you're like, no, that was important. But that is, I had to learn that as well. Yeah. And I had to go the long way around. But then I realized, like, play the hits.

I mean, I've seen bands, and I'm not, you know, you don't want to call anybody out, but I've seen bands where I watched the whole show and they didn't play the hit that I wanted to play. And you're, and you know, I had made it when this happened. And you're so disappointed. Yeah. You're like, I loved everything you played, but you're really not going to play that song. You're really going to, you're really not going to play that song. That's your biggest hit, and you're not going to play it.

And that's just crazy to be. You have a lot of hits. I've done all right. You have a lot of hits. It's been a crazy run. You have a lot of hits. You probably, you probably have more hits than anyone that sat in that chair. I would say your top three hit makers that have sat in that chair.

I would say you, Lil Wayne, Southside has produced a ton of hits. We've had some people with it. You have a lot of hits that you wrote, that you sing. I mean, you have a lot of hits. Like I said, I've been lucky. I'm a pretty good songwriter, and I've written songs with some cool people. It's so funny to sit there to talk. I don't know why I'm bringing this up again,

but CNN did a show on the 90s music. It was produced by Gary Getsman and Tom Hanks produced. And they did three hours on the 90s and did not mention Houdy the Blowfish. That's crazy. To say that is crazy. And I said to some reporter, I was like, fuck Tom angst, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course.

And so I meet Tom, you know, and he's like, well, we only had a certain amount of time. And I went, it's the fucking best-selling record of the decade. In the decade. Of the decade. It's the best selling a record of the decade. And you didn't mention it. It was like double diamond in a half or something. Yeah, we sold 22 million cars.

It's crazy. Yeah. But, you know, that's, that's here or there. But it's just, for me, I've been lucky. And even after us, when I was, when I was. went to country music and you know i've been a huge country music fan my whole life i've always said i was going to do it someday and you know it was about songs yeah and that's what that's what hits are about you need the song first of all then you need a whole bunch of luck and people behind you but that's what

hits are songs great songs there's just something about you the way you sing and the the way you deliver you have our casual honesty about your songs all they all hit From the Hootie Records to now, they all just hit in a way that feels honest. And I think that that's a big part of why I think you are successful. People believe you. I mean, when I hear you sing, I know you're singing. I know that you want to be there. You want to sing.

And you're saying something that you mean. Oh, yeah. However, little or big of an idea it is. If it's about chilling, if it's about something deeper, I always feel like there's an honesty to you, which is hard to find sometimes in popular music it can be you know we all have our own taste or whatever but i've always kind of been like a guy in a guitar singing i want to i know when i believe him and i know when i don't i always believe you and i think that comes from what we were talking about earlier me you know not doing a song i don't want to sing for the rest of my life yeah because if i if i put a song on a record

even songs that i haven't written if i pick a song i believe it it's it's me you know even if i believe it's born and i love it and i love it and that's why i love it and that's why So when I get in the studio to sing it, I'm giving everything. I'm doing everything to make you believe it because I believe it. Yeah. And that's, I think all the great singers do that. All the people who I listen to, you know, Al Green and, you know, Michael Stipe and all these people that were important to me, you believe it when they're saying it. And that's, that's what makes hits.

I feel very lucky to be sitting with you. I've been a fan a long time. But I could see why you would be protective of Hootie, especially being, you know, in the decade of the 90s to be one of the most important things that happened musically. And then not only that, a lot of things in the 90s stayed in the 90s and not, I wouldn't say they're less important. Yeah. I would say that they were, they were kind of locked in a time, but to have a catalog of music that was born out of something so great, I don't know why you wouldn't include that in every, especially in CNN, but I could see why you care so much about, it's like

me with, I really believe that everything that I have is because of Good Charlotte. Everything that I am is because of that vehicle that got me there. And it was in the 90s when we started and it was a special time. It was a special time to be around music and be discovering music. But everything that I've achieved in my life is because that thing that I got to be a part of and then I'm still a part of. And so I'm protective of it. Absolutely. I respect it. Absolutely. I mean, the word you says, I'm protective of. it and you know even through the whole whole career and everything happened you know you know a lot of people traced the end of grunge to when hooty started and then you know you see all

those bands that came out you know bashbox and sister hayes and all those bands that came out of who did he get in the record deal and having success and i'm very protective of that because i you know i think in the whole world although in the whole critical world we've never gotten what i think we deserved as a band. I agree. You know, and we live with that every day. Like, even now, you know, it's been six years since we've been eligible

and we've never been on a ballot for the Rock and Rolls for the Rock and Rolls. That's crazy. And, you know, we look at that, go, wow. Wait a minute. I did not know that Goody and the Bloofish wasn't in the Rock and Rolls Fame.

I never thought about it. We've never even been on the ballot. I assumed you guys were. Never been on the ballot. That's crazy. Yeah, crazy. You know, and we look at, we, we laugh about it. You know, but it's like,

that is the people who, think where the rock critics still dismiss us instead of really looking at what we did for music like one of one of the greatest moments of our career early career was at american music awards where uh garth brooks won it we were up for it and goth works won it and he wouldn't accept it wouldn't accept it then he went backstage and he told him the reason accept it because those guys deserve it you know we were putting but we were putting people back in the record stores you know it was it was a crazy time but we look at that and it just goes on to the today. I mean, for me, I know it's not for me to say, and I'm not saying we would

get in, but it's shocking. You would absolutely get in. You will get in. I'll bet any amount of money you'll get in. These things culturally happen because these conversations happen. The greatest thing about these conversations and why I love this show is we're just being honest. We're not attacking anyone. We don't take sides. I don't have, I don't pick sides on most arguments. I'm a picking side. I'm a musician. I see the world in the middle because I've been able to travel and meet so many different people. I'm 100% with you. You know, so I see all the sides and I think most of the time I'm like, yo, don't pull me into your political arguments, your religious arguments. Don't pull me in because I've been around the world. People are people. Everybody wants to be happy.

Some people get pulled this way and they have a view that they don't even realize that they would get along with this person over here if they weren't being pitted against one another. And so I love this show for that because we don't have an agenda other than like people getting to actually sit in the chair and be themselves so that everybody listening who actually wants to know what it would be like to have a coffee with you or have a beer with you or go, you know, get a minute of your time. because it's impossible for us to hang out with everybody. But that's what this show's about. It's like, what would it be like to have dinner with that guy? Yeah. And just shoot the shit and be free enough to be honest about how we feel. The fact that Hootie is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,

I'm actually blown away by that. I had no idea. I thought, I assumed. I just kind of assumed. You just assumed. Oh, I know what you mean. But like seriously, they never even been on the ballot. That's crazy.

And it's been six years, never been on the ballot. That's interesting, isn't it? The biggest record of the decade in the 90s, especially for rock music, and any person in my generation would absolutely say that record affected their musical landscape in some way. You were touched by that record somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, it was one of those records that was everywhere.

And for us, we just, you know, of course, we were in it, living it. And so, you know, we sit back and just do it. But it was just, I just thought, I just think it was an important record. And it was important time. It was an important time for music. It was a, it was just, it was such a switch from, you know, Pearl Jam, you know, Nirvana. It was such a switch to all of a sudden, what is this? what is this little record coming out?

But one of my favorite stories to tell is we finished Cracked Review and this very important vice president at Atlantic Records went and told Danny Goldberg that if you put this record out, we will be the laughing stock of music. That was his exact line

about Cracked Review. How did that feel when you heard that, though? Oh, it broke our hearts. Right. Because for a second, we thought, they were going to put it out you thought they were going to shelf it yeah but danny was like you know you're crazy you know dani was like you're crazy to put the record out and because at first they didn't no nope they didn't work it and it was some people in the south trying to get on records you know get on the radio

in charleston and columbia and raleigh where we were from maybe get on the radio there and then letterman happened and life changed yeah yeah i remember that life changed like in a weekend our lives changed. For me, country music has become a place where anything can happen now. Yes. And that's been over the last two decades. And I would say you're a big part of showing artists that they can go do whatever they want, especially, I mean, to me, the Hooty Records, I come from, from Maryland. So we're a, southern leaning. We have a lot of southern rock, a lot of country. Like, my dad loved you. I always felt hooty in a soul, like a soulful southern rock way. Yeah.

So it always made sense to me. Your music makes sense to me. Yeah. Like you were always kind of a country singer to me. I was. I've always thought that. Yeah. And then a lot of the southern rock bands,

it's a rock band that has a country influence. So the singer is a country singer, you know. But in the 90s, everything was genreified and divided by genres and separated. So if you were that, you can't be that. Now it doesn't matter. Yeah. You just write songs and you are whatever you want to be. Exactly.

But I think you were a big part of that. I mean, country was a, you know, going over the country, we're in the bus one day and our drummer says he doesn't want to be a touring band anymore. And so we're like, wow. And I had been thinking about making country music since, you know, Radney Foster, listening to all those records and stuff like that. It's like, I was like, I'm going to go to Nashville. And the thing that really got me when I first started,

after I finished my record, I was going around, I went to 110 radio stage. And the thing that really got me was when I was told I don't think my audience would accept a black country singer and I'm telling you three four folks Looked me in the eye and told me that and that was like wow You know I mean I mean I know that had been a black country singer in 25 years I have a hit, but I didn't know it was like that Yeah, and then when we made it it then when you know we had our first hit and then the second it and It was really like I felt like you know I'm opening the door not just for me Yeah, you're blazing a trail.

You know, but just for these other artists that would have never even gotten to listen to them, maybe now somebody will listen to them and listen to them and give them a shot. You know, and you've seen everything that's happened with, with Beyonce now. And, you know, it's like Beyonce and Kane Brown and all these folks that are having. I mean, they didn't have to hear that. And the reason they'd have to hear that is because of what I did. Yeah. You know, what we did with Capitol, we went out and proved that whole myth of that what these countries, white folks won't listen to black music wrong.

They just want good, they're like everybody else. They want good songs. You got a great song and a great singer. They want to hear it. It's actually the people playing their records who were deciding what the audience, what they wanted the audience to listen to. A lot like the record executive that said, you can't put this hooty record out. Yeah.

You got the important radio people saying, we're not going to put a black guy out in country music. It's not going to work. Yep. You did it anyways. Yep. But you really are just a trailblazer. And if you look at where country music is today,

it wasn't like that when you came in. Oh, goodness now. 17 years ago, was not like it is now. You had to get after it. And you had to face. I mean, I can only imagine how old it got in the beginning there for you when you were putting records out. Yeah. You said it was just hearing it was old.

Yeah. You know, and the stupid stuff, like some people did at shows and stuff. You're like, do you really think, like we're playing ups and stuff? upstate New York once in this local clan group decides to come out and they're walking around with these dry, you know, rebel flags. And I'm like, and I'm thinking myself, do you think that's going to make me stop playing? Yeah, it's going to make me play more. Yeah, it's going to make me play more and louder. You know, it's just, it was a whole,

like you said, it was the gatekeepers that didn't want to open the gate. It wasn't the people behind the gate that weren't, that weren't, didn't want to hear it. It was the people that didn't want me to come through. That's crazy, though. It was, it's been crazy. I mean, the death threats and all the stuff, it was crazy. You've had death threats? Goodness, yeah.

Oh, my God. Oh, goodness, yeah. Especially at the beginning. At the beginning, it was, yeah, people wanted me out. But it feels like you connect with the people you're singing for. They want to see you. It's just always these, like, these select groups of assholes that are almost like just there to, like, kill the whole party for everybody. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I'm not going to sit here and say it's just, you know, it's also, you know, as an African-American having to put up with the black folks saying, oh, what are you doing? Right. What are you doing? Like one of the, one of the, one of the, one of, a moment that just blew my world apart this day up. Me and Charlie Pride are hanging out at the Opry one day.

Oh my God. And we're just, and, you know, we're just shoot the shit. And Charlie Pride is, everybody knows that name. I don't care who you are. know how important Charlie Pride was. He's incredible. Incredible. And he said to me one day, he was like, you know, I had all these hits.

I broke down. I did something that somebody that looked at me had never done. He's like, I won, I won entertainer of the year in 1972. And he said, I'd never been on, I've never been on the cover of Ebony and Jet. Wow. And I thought, me neither. That's crazy. And I was like, that's crazy.

You want entertainer. the year in country music and they didn't put you in the cover of Avenue Jet. And me, you know, I was selling records hand and fists and never been on the cover of Ebony of Jet. And that was a thing that was, you know, you expect it from this side, but when you're getting it from both sides. And where do you actually fit? And it bothers you.

You try to act like it doesn't, but it bothers you. Yeah. You know, even today, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure like, you know, now that Beyonce's done thing. You know, the BT was going to have all of a sudden to have a country category. There's going to be country for sure. Why wasn't there a country category 16 years ago when I'm making it, you know, but that's just when you choose to do something that you're not supposed to do, that's the kind of stuff that happens because we're not, you know, we're not supposed to do it. My father-in-law, Lionel had the Commodores and then he went on to his solo career and he was a very,

people could say it was one kind of genre, but it was a lot of different things. It was rock and it was all these different things but they try to box you in and label you as something especially the people that are trying to market it to the to the broader audiences yes which are predominantly white audiences in popular music it's like that's traditionally that's what they were trying to market so how are we going to sell this yes and good music is good music that's what I think good music is going to make it but you're just being you yeah and everybody else is arguing about what you are exactly exactly it's like that That's the one thing that that just been, for me, has been crazy.

I didn't think that, I'm going to go play rock or roll, but I just want to play music. Just being yourself. And I'm just writing the songs that I write. And the songs you write comes from what you listen to, and I was listening to everything. I mean, everything. I remember as a kid, you know, sitting in the front of that AM radio,

just twisting a knob until I heard a song I liked. And then you listen to it and you can't wait to hear it again. You know, listen to the cheap trick and Buck Owens and Al Green. and, you know, the Beatles and all these bands, all these different genres that were there. But for me, it was never genres. It was music. I say this all the time.

We all use the same chords and the same words. You know, it's just music. Yeah. And it'll always be that way for me. It's just music. As hard as it can be to have to, what I can imagine is to have to just be in the middle of all that and accept that that's everybody.

Like, you can't control, any side or what who's saying what and you're literally sitting in the middle and you're just like you want to make your music put it out you have traversed two decades three decades of what it means to be you in music country rock and roll all of it and come out on the other side this like successful grounded guy who's i can still just see you've been the same guy that's that's one the things I'm most proud of is I haven't, I'm just still who I was. Like, and all my friends, like, I still have friends that I've known since I was, you know, five.

Yeah. That I still hang out and talk to every week. And they'll tell you, you're still just darius. One of the, a statement, a saying that I just always believe is true as much as, and don't get me wrong, there's times when, when that stuff hurts, you know, and you can be angry. And you're sitting at home by yourself and you're mad or you're hurt and you're like, but then the best revenge is success, man. Mm-hmm.

You know? And I'm out here playing shows. Like, I just got back from Europe playing a sold-out tour, you know, playing 10,000 people in London, you know, it's like, that's the best, that's the best revenge is doing that. And getting to do the only thing I've wanted to do since I was five years old, just play music. It's all I've ever wanted to do. Would you say you're happy with where you landed?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Totally. I mean, as growing up as a kid, I just wanted to be a solo artist. I really did. I just wanted to get my guitar and write songs, and then Purple Ring came out. And this, I'll never forget this as long as the Purple Ring comes out, and I go see it in the theater. And the time hit the stage.

And I remember thinking, I want to be in a band. If that's what being in the band is about, I wanted to be in a band. And so. Magical. Magical, magical. You know, and then so Hootie happens and I have this great career with Hootie. And then I go to Nashville and I get to do it by myself. Yeah.

Pretty badass. I'm sitting here. I'm happy with my. You got to do both. I got to do both. And you still get to do both. Yeah. And that's the thing is, it's been 30 years and I still matter.

Yeah. I just had a hit, you know, last year. Yeah. You know, it's, you still matter. And that's a pretty cool feeling. I'm 58, man. Bears and Sunshine. Yeah, that was a great song.

Big hit. A shocking good hit. It's a great song, dude. You know? Yeah. You know? And I think it's like one in your biggest hits. It is.

Just last year. I think that was my fastest moving song ever. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. The only kind of BS I like. Yeah, dude, we didn't think they'd play that, but they did. Yeah, I like it.

I love that song. It's great. Yeah, I love that song. It's really good. One of the reasons I wanted to have you here was your book. Oh, yeah. Your book, which is out now. Yeah.

I feel like we just covered a lot of it, but what's the main idea of writing that book? Oh, goodness. You know how it is. I'm sure you get, everybody's always asking you write a book, And I always said I wouldn't write it until my kids were old enough to write it. Right. Until they were adults. How old are your kids?

My youngest is 19 and 23 and 29. Amazing. And for me, it was just time to tell the story. And the book is really, you know, there's a lot about the music, but it's more about the stuff that shaped me there. You know, it's about my relationship or non-relationship with my dad. It's about my relationship with my mom. It's about my brothers and sisters and all growing up and all that stuff.

That was the stuff that really, you know, everybody's going to talk about, you know, I talked about the party. I think that's the thing that people are going to be a little surprised about. It's a hard duty way. I'm gonna, and like my music, my hair changed with me and has to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian Professional, has all what my hair needs.

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for your ears No let's more Wiltas Your negotiation Your Neoccio It's a super-exit with Shopify Empia to

your period of a month in Shopify dotes Barre Records Yeah, I actually assume that Yeah

So you like that But I always can smell it a little bit Because I know myself Exactly, you know I don't know if people expected good Charlotte To go hard or not I'm not

I'm not sure I did But we had our moments Where it led me to the predominantly healthy lifestyle I live now, but I had to go through that. Oh, absolutely.

And I realized when I was going through that, what I was actually medicating was all my childhood shit and all my bad relationships and all my family shit. That was something that really, so the therapy of writing the book. So I really realized like all that was because of my childhood. And once we got there and what I was doing, I was just trying to escape. Yeah. I was just trying to escape me, trying to escape all the shit I'd just gone through and all this. And all, you know, all the shit that was happening,

I was just trying to escape. And like, I'm like you now, I live a relatively healthy lifestyle, you know. Still have a couple of drinks with you and everything. I like to drink. Yeah, I like to, yeah. But it's not, we're not putting a mound over there for us to go through, which would have been happening in the 98, you know.

But all that stuff was to escape. It wasn't for anything else. It was to escape all the childhood trauma and all the stuff that you went through growing up. And I don't, like I said, but I don't regret any of it. You know, it was what it was. I didn't kill anybody and I didn't die.

Thank God. Even the four of us now, when the four of us, when we get together and we're honest with each other, somebody always says, thank God we all made it out there. Because one of us could not be here real easy or more of us. And especially from the 90s, the early 2000s, we saw so many people die. We all know someone from our world of music that is not here. Yes. And it was absolutely drugs.

That's every time. It was drinking maybe, but drugs. It was all drugs. And that's why I tell my kids, I'm like, guys, you think I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm like, you're boring dad. Trust me. Drugs, they're going to get you one way or another. Yes.

So be very careful. I want you to make your own decisions, but be very careful because drugs, I don't know anyone yet that has beaten the drugs. The only way to beat them is quit. Quit. They always win. They will win. And in today's world, you know, when in the 90s, you didn't have to worry about getting a bag

with fentanyl. Yeah, you didn't, that wasn't a thing back then. That wasn't even something you thought about, you know, and now. People were still dying. Yeah, exactly. And so now I say the same thing to my kids, you know, it's not worth it. I mean, you might think it is. And at the moment, it's just, it's not worth it.

Yeah. Was there any part of writing the book that made you feel nervous about sharing? Like I had this moment yesterday where we were we were starting to write and I couldn't, spent three hours, nothing was coming out. And I was usually at three hours, I quit. I'm like, I'll try again tomorrow. I know myself well enough. And my brother was like, let's try one more time, but like actually talk about something

you care about. Stop trying to write a song. And then I start writing and I get a little embarrassed. You know that embarrassed feeling when you're being honest? Sure. What parts of the book do you feel like or the most bearing, the most of the one that you were the most nervous to like let people have probably the most nervous was how awful of a husband I was that was that was that was black's wife was awesome she was awesome all she wanted to do is keep

our family together and all I wanted to do was go up party right you know and she was there with the kids and I came home and tried to be a good dad but I was only home for four or five days before I was back on the road and that whole thing was it just really and from me an apology to her because that was embarrassing that after growing up without a dad the way I did that that's how I chose to live in that that was pretty good that was hard to write and that was hard to put in the book but I always said if I wrote the book I was going to be honest that's pretty amazing what I hear is because I have the same complicated relationship with my father we were estranged my whole life yeah and then I reunited with him actually didn't share this forever. Everyone always assumed I hated my dad because I did for a long time and most of my records. A lot of them were about him. Yeah. And then I reunited with him after I had kids and we made peace with one another and it was nice. I mean, we were never going to be the storybook father's son.

But he was, there was up, there were parts of him that were like me. There was parts of him that I saw. I was like straight up got from my dad. And what I realized and when he, he, when he passed away, was I got to do something he didn't get to do, which was like make amends and make things right. Yeah. And what I hear in that love letter to your wife in the book is something like a man who's going back and being honest about his mistakes and facing a painful thing, which is we didn't have a model, we didn't know how to be husbands,

we didn't know how to be fathers, and we rejected it for a long time by partying or running away or doesn't mean we was okay we did it but we did it yeah the hero's story is at any point and this is more maybe for people listening and people reading your book is at any given point if we can actually come to terms with the truth about ourselves however painful it is and go back and actually face it accept it own it and try to make it right you know some people will accept that from us some people might not yeah Yeah.

We can't control that. Yeah. But to actually own it is the growing part. I agree. I agree. It's like with my dad, we didn't see each other for 15 years, which is an amazing thing. And from the time I was 12 to 27, I didn't see him. Same.

He lived 10 minutes from where I was. Wow. 10 minutes from where I was. And we did Letterman, and we were, you know, we had played those. these clubs for so long. We did letterment, everything was taken off, but we said all these clubs that we got booked were keeping them. You know, the booky age was like,

we got to cancel these clubs. Well, fuck that. Yeah. We're going to play these clubs one last time and give them a huge send-off. They're going to make a fortune that night. And we're playing a club in Charleston, and he walks in to the club. We and Dean, our base player,

he walks into the club, we're having dinner, and he just walks in like he saw me yesterday. And so I decided I'm going to be the bigger man. Yeah. Hey man. All right. Absolutely, man.

Here's my number. I'm about to go. I'm going on the road. Call me. We'll get together when I get back. So you go on the road and I get back and I check my answer machine. And I haven't seen him in 15 years. It's crazy.

I check my answer machine and his first message is asking me for $50,000. That's disappointing. Crushed me. I was like, really? You have to be. kidding me. Yeah. That's going to be your first message to me after 15 years that you need me to give you

money and not a little bit of money. No, $50,000 in 1990, whatever was more like $200,000. That's real money. And that's real money. And especially when you just first got money. I didn't have that. We would just. You didn't have it.

No, we were just, you know, later than it just happened. We were living. Don't get me wrong. We were doing well in the clubs to where we had a, we could pay rent and everything. You were making a little. a rich. Yeah. And I was just like blown away.

And that was constantly after that. Anytime I saw him, that's all it was. Like my favorite story to tell, this is, I'm walking down King Street, which the street in Charleston. And I see him in the car driving towards me. And he pulls over, pulls over. He gets out and he goes, oh, my God. Thank God.

He's driving the Cadillac. So a white guy sitting in the pastor seat. Oh, thank God. Thank God. I was like, hey, well, good to see you. Thank God for what. He was like, I'm test driving this car. I was like, if you think God sent me to you to buy you this goal,

your God's lying to you. But that's what it was. And we never, you know, I was, like when you said you guys developed a relationship, that's all I wanted. I just wanted a friendship. But it was never, I could never out one because every time I saw him, it was just about money. That's really.

I'm like, dude, I'm not giving you any money. It's really hard when you have to go through that while navigating a career in entertainment. Because everyone's making you question. Am I real enough? Am I staying grounded? Have I become an asshole? Absolutely. Just when you're from a place, a small place.

You know, if you're from a smaller place, I'm not from L.A. I've learned how to live out here. I can navigate this place just fine. It was a little overwhelming at first, but I'm from a small place. So I was always questioning, am I still a good person? Because I was taught money is evil and fame is evil and Hollywood is evil and everything's evil. So I must be evil now. Yep.

And you're asking yourself all the time. Am I still that same humble, nice guy that I will go up being? Yeah. And if your self-esteem is not in check, if you don't have a healthy relationship with yourself, which is I had to go to therapy. I had to go work it out and figure out what parts was real, what parts was not, and find my own version of health because I would overcompensate all the time in every direction. I would be way too nice to someone.

I would go way too out of my way. So I would be used by people. and then on the other way on the other side i would be a dick because i was because i just got used oh yeah yeah and so you could never find the true middle where you just have your the same instincts that got you to your first hit those were the instincts you needed all along yes and then when you get the success you don't believe that you actually did it so then you start second guessing everything and and then you're just swirling and then you try to be honest try to get married try to have kids without actually unpacking all the things and being ready for it.

So it's almost like getting thrown out of an airplane with no parachute and you're just free falling and trying to figure it out. And then in front of everybody. Yeah, in front of the world. And then I want to appear as perfect, to be honest, if I'm being really honest, I want everyone to think I'm the great guy. You and I are talking this, we're preaching the choir. Right.

Absolutely. I don't want you to think that I have my problems I have. If I drink too much, I might get a little crazy in any direction. I might get, you know, but that was always my problem was I was medicating this deep need for, I think, love, acceptance, self-esteem, and just overwhelmed by the success that I maybe didn't believe I'd ever have. And then you have the dad thing, the mom thing, relationships, all of it gets thrown into this big bag and then you're carrying it around while you're going out and trying to do what you

love and what you're actually good at what you have to do if you hadn't put out the music you put out think about the hole in the world this is what we were just talking about think about the road you've paved for so many artists to be able to do this and make a living and be in country music rock music. Yeah. This is not just hard for a black man to be the lead singer in country. It's in rock, too. It's just as hard.

I agree. In the 90s. Absolutely. And still today. Absolutely. Like, think about how many artists don't get picked. Yeah. So what you've actually done, if we're really honest about it and we give you credit,

is blaze this trail while. carrying these suitcases of real shit that everybody has to work out. Absolutely. And I mean, you said a little while ago, therapy, it was, it's a, it, it brought me to a level to where I always say that it made me have to deal with me. Yeah. Because up until that, I just didn't deal with me. Yeah.

I dealt with everything else and all the other BS around, but therapy got me to deal with me. Me too. It made me a better person. and made me okay with just being me. Yes. I'm going to make my music when I make it. I'm going to do the things I do. And then that's okay.

Yeah. Whatever the result is, I'll judge it later. I'm going to be me to you. I'm going to be me to you. Then I can be closer with my kids. Yes. So it took me. I was lucky.

I feel the same way you feel about your ex-wife. She's an incredible person who I got into therapy just in time. I feel like we've made it to where we've made it because I got into therapy just in time. It wasn't her. Yeah. It was absolutely me. Oh, 100%.

And she's an entertainer. So people pin this idea of like this person they think she is is like she was wild and she was this. It's actually not. Yeah. She's very calm, very smart. Yep. Was raised really well. Like classy woman.

Yeah. Has integrity and makes good choices. And I was the one who had the low self-esteem, most, If anyone was anyone making mistakes, it was me. Yes. You know, I was the messier one. Always. But I presented well to the world.

I could get on stage and be the lead singer. Yeah. Say the right stuff. Yes. You know what I mean? Yep, and I was the nice guy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

He's so nice. He's so nice. Yeah. But I had some messes. And I was lucky enough that she saw me through that part. And I would say my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, very supportive people who have their shit together. Yeah. And they're just like classy people.

they have integrity. So I had a family around me suddenly that was like, hey, maybe you should like go talk to somebody. Yeah. It helps. And then, because I'd never thought about that. I was kind of looked at therapy. Me too.

I was against it. I was like, well, you know, what I'm going to talk to some stranger about? Go to talk to us and what am I crazy? Yeah, exactly. You crazy. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm not, you know.

Yeah. But I'm just a big advocate for it because I know what it did for me. I know what it did for me. And it just really got me to a really good place in life. I'm for the first time, probably, you know, last few years for the first of my life, I've really been happy. Yeah, I feel that way too.

And to get that is the point of life. Yes. To get that. And think about to get that at our age, there are some people who will never get it. They'll never achieve that happiness. Yeah. Well, I feel like it's a victory.

It's a big win. Yeah. Everything else is icing. Yeah, because when we start off, we think getting a record deal is going to make me happy. Yeah. Then you think, oh, having a hit's going to make me happy. Oh, then having another hit that, let's make another record.

Let's have a big tour. Playing stadium is going to make you happy. That stuff just makes it harder. And then all of a sudden, you're trying to medicate to compensate for what? But, you know. Yeah, the God-size hole in us just gets bigger when the life gets bigger. Yes. And we try to fill it with more and more.

One thing I always try to tell my kids, and they're teenagers now, so they kind of get it now, is I'm like, I'm just like you. I'm just trying to figure life out. Yeah. I don't have all the answers. I'm going to try to tell you what I think. Yeah. But I try to be as honest as possible because I didn't have a lot of that as a kid.

I didn't have an adult around that was just telling me the truth about life. It's so funny. It's so great talking to you because that's, I think that was for me what it was too. Because my mom was great, but she wasn't really telling me the truth. Right. You know, she was, she was working the butt off and telling me I could do anything I want to do. You could be anything going to be all the great positive stuff. But there's nobody sitting down telling me to look out for drugs or, you know, or look out for this or this life's going to be hard.

Or how a credit card works. Yeah, exactly. Or like how to buy a house? Yeah. Or how to buy a car. Or to save money. Yeah, put the money away. Put the money away.

You know, because we didn't have any money to put away. So no one was telling me. No one was teaching me anything like that. You know, and that's the kind of things, I'm sure, you try to teach a kids now. It's like life is a big thing. There's a lot of things we need to talk about. Take your time, take care of yourself,

and find something you love. Love, exactly. And get after it. Exactly. But everything that is worth doing is hard. And it's the hard parts are hard. I had this talk with my daughter the other day. She's a really big dancer.

She's a really, like, she's achieved a lot as a dancer. She's 16. She works really hard. It's one of the reasons why I don't worry about her at all. And the other day, she was all stressed out because she was going to Seattle with her mom for this dance competition

and she was kind of yelling at me. And I was like, hey, calm down. What's up? And she's like, I'm just stressed. This is really hard. And I was like, hey, listen, it's really hard because it's hard. Yeah.

Because you're doing something that not a lot of people want to take the time and put the effort in. Just like making it with music. So the hard parts are hard. Just know that and know that it's not permanent. Yeah.

Because this will get easier and then you're going to pick something harder. Yeah. And get comfortable in that uncomfortable hard spot so you can keep going forward and know that it makes you a little anxious, makes you stressed out. And she calmed down. No one told me that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely not.

And also no one told us that anything great is going to be hard. It's going to be hard work. And if it's easy, in the long run, it's not going to be great. You know, and that's just, like you said, there was nobody telling me that growing up. It was nobody, it just wasn't there. Well, if anybody today asks you, how do you have your career? I mean, I think I can't even count the number ones, number one records, number one songs, let's say even just top tens.

If you stack them all up, and then you also stack up all the achievements, those are just one measurement, right? All the achievements, the tours, the amount of tickets, the amount of whatever, if we just stacked them all up, they would be sitting in piles around us in this room. If we were sitting in your success, it would be piles of shit around us in this room, right?

If it was physical, right? Because it's, yeah. And someone said, how did you do it? You would likely say, I kept getting back up. Yes. I kept trying. Yes. And I didn't listen to anyone.

I didn't listen to anybody. I couldn't. Exactly. Anybody that said you can't do this. Anytime somebody said, you can't do this. made me want to do it more. The thing that's interesting to me is when there's someone who has something that someone

has told them that's a non-starter, right? If I went into country music, they would say, it might be hard, but yeah, give it a try. You go in and they say, it's not going to happen, dude. Like, people... I mean, just like that, not going to happen. And here we are, 20 years later. Yeah. And you're sitting in this success.

and so when asked you how'd you do it and you would have to say the very basic I got back up every time I worked harder worked harder yep when I got knocked down I worked harder

that's really how what it is it just not accepting not accepting what anybody says any of the negative stuff anybody says to you and just get back up everybody gets knocked

out you just got to get back up get back on that horse and start riding it again yeah you'll likely be a new If you're not already, I don't know if you've written any other books, but you'll likely be a New York Times bestseller. I'll bet that. I'll bet some money on that.

That'd be nice. Yeah, that'd be nice. That'd be nice. A nice little thing to add to the piles of achievements. Absolutely. That'd be nice. Do you feel good about the book? Yes.

Very, very, you know, I think there's one story in the book that we put two stories together that kind of still bothers me, but we just told the truth. Right. And that's what I love about the book. The truth is awkward sometimes. We just told the truth. It's uncomfortable sometimes. Yeah, very.

What I, you know, I did, I did the, uh, the audiobook. Oh, you read it? Yeah, I read it. That's great. And there were moments where, you know, I got really choked up. I mean, there was one moment that I really cried because it was like, it was so honest. And in the, those are times that you don't think about. But then when you're reading the back, you're just like, wow, that was crazy.

That was crazy. I don't think the world is a place where the, it's not that I want to say the world. is an ugly, mean place, but it is sometimes. I don't think it's a place where we're encouraged to love ourselves and to actually embrace and celebrate our own existence, and our own life and our own story. Wow, that's a great way to put it. Absolutely.

You know? Yeah. And it's sad to think about unless we do it, and then other people will do it for themselves. Yeah. You have to have the audacity to love. love yourself and celebrate everything you are and everything you aren't. Yes.

Right? I don't prop myself up as a guy who's figured it all out. That's not why I have a show or podcast or whatever you want to call this. I'm a guy who's trying to figure it out. And so I want to talk to successful people that I admire and see why it is they're so special because I think they're special. I suspect they figured some stuff out. And I always get something out of sharing.

But the world doesn't actually celebrate that idea. If anything, they'll try to poke holes in it or make fun of it or whatever. But there is something about someone telling the truth and accepting themselves to move forward that leads other people to do the same. That's why I think people listen. I think people want to find something they share with you. I think that's something my whole career that's been important. I mean, even in the songs, you know, like I remember when I wrote Let a Cry and we were cutting it.

And my A&R, there's a line that I ran my hand through her dark hair. Yeah. And my producer and my A&R guy were begging me to change it to a blonde hair to make it obvious that, you know, he was a white girl. Right. And I kept going, no, but the girl I wrote the song about has got dark black hair. I'm not going to change it. For me, it's just always about honesty, especially in songwriting.

When I'm writing a song about anybody, you know, that's how I write songs. That's how they come to me. I decided to come to write about this, and then the song just comes. It just flows. You just write about your memory or whatever you do. And that was just, they begged me to change that. I just kept going, no. You know, and when we won the Grammy for it, I was like, see?

Yeah. It's because it was an honest song. Yeah, it's one of the best lines of the song, too. It's great. It was that song that I, like, Tom Petty once said that God has written all the great songs and just decides who the funnel them through. Yeah.

And I always say one night he sent me that one. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that song. You like Tom Petty? Love Tom Petty. Yeah. Huge Tom Petty fan.

Did you meet him? Once. I never heard to meet him once. Just in a passing thing, got to meet him. Got to sit with Charlie Pride. Several times. That was Charlie, several times. Charlie, I became really good friends.

That's really cool. Yeah. He was an awesome human being. Unreal. Awesome human being. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just happy, really, really, he was one of those people.

We were saying he knew exactly who he was and what he was. And when you meet people in our business that they're so few and far between. And when you meet somebody who knew exactly who was like Charlie was, our conversations were, you know, awesome. It's inspiring. It's comforting. It's calming. Yes.

It reminds you that the work is never done. But to be more you, I always have to remind myself that. Is this, does this make me more me or does it make me less me when I'm trying to make a decision or whatever? And I always try to remind artists that too, like be more you every day. You only get to be yourself. Yeah. If you're looking at someone else's career trying to have that. Yeah.

You're going in the wrong direction. Exactly. You've got to have your own, whatever that means. Comparing, comparing is killing. You're killing yourself when you're comparing yourself to other people. And then Charlie was something I said to myself because I knew going into country music, it wasn't going to be easy. Like, we've talked about something like,

it wasn't going to be easy for black men of the country music. And I said to myself, for the shit that Charlie Pride had to go through, I could think, there's nothing I can't think. Yeah.

He told me a story about leaving a club one night, and George Jones had, with a key, had written nigger on his car. Really? Yeah.

I was like, wow. Had he told that story anywhere else? Yeah, it's a known story in country music. And I went, wow. I was like, wow. But, you know, and I always said anything Charlie went through, all the stuff he went through I could go through.

There's nothing that's going to happen to me. It's anywhere near what happened to him. That's crazy. Crazy. To keep your composure. Yeah, to keep, because he had to. Yeah. You know, he knew that if he, anything,

it was just not going to help him. And so he just kept the composure. And he was just a strong, great guy. There's a lot of wisdom. And I actually have gotten to sit with Lionel in here so many stories about what it was like to be in Alabama in the Commodores touring in a band, trying to make it. Can't imagine. Trying to make it in, you know, they wanted to be big. Yeah.

They wanted to be global. Sure. That was the dream. Yeah. And to hear the stories, to hear the wisdom and experience, especially a man that I admire, that I just look up to so much because he was, Beyond music, obviously, he's a legend. Yes. But as a person to know him so personally, I feel very lucky because I feel like I'm a small

group of people that get to have this intrepersonal relationship with a father figure. Sure. Who's also a legend. Absolutely. And has seen decades and decades of the world change. Yeah. And I've lived through all of it. There's a really special guy.

Oh, yeah. Very. And a really good father. He's just a great human being. Yeah. Do you know, Lionel? I met him a few times. I sang on that Tuskegee record.

Yeah, yeah. Great record. One of the great moments of my life, I'm getting chills thinking about it. I go in, we're doing stuck on you. And I go in this studio. First of all, I freak out when I walk in the studio because Tony Brown's there, you know, one of the famous, you know, he produced Elvis, you know, Tony Brown's in there. And I walk in, and we meet Lion and I, we're having a great conversation.

And we're sitting in the booth together. And so Tony goes, you know, in this booth, it's a lot of. every session, every great session musician in Nashville that's playing on this record. I'm looking around

and I'm seeing everybody that's four, they're four or five scales. These guys are this shit in Nashville. And Tony says, hey guys, let's just run the beginning of it.

And he said, Lionel and Derry, do you guys don't have to sing what's going to run the song. They start playing it. And Lionel just just leans over to his mic and says,

you know, sing, stuck on you? And every musician in there just went, you can see their body's just like Oh my God, I'm playing with Lana Richie. It was just a great, great moment.

Yeah, he's amazing. He's an amazing person. I get a lot of wisdom from my father-in-law and other men around me that are older than me, that have lived some more life down the road than me, that I see the guys who have made mistakes and owned them and then taking steps towards continuing to live as honest of life as we can. Yes. Are the ones who I want to be like? because I don't want to sell perfect to people.

I want people, because no one's perfect. No. The guys who sell perfect and that are good at it, there's all these gurus and people like that, good for them. I'm not knocking their business or whatever, their business model or perfection. But it's the guys who I see that I've lived honestly and that I want to be like because what we do with music,

with our lives, whether you like it or not, your life is on front street. Everybody's looking at it. Anytime we make a mistake, anytime we say something we didn't even mean, we were just off the cuff, whatever, the world's going to try to take it

and make it something bigger than it actually is instead of just a moment of whatever. Yeah. But the people that actually more people, 99.9% of people don't care. And they'll actually support and love the guy who's honest. Yes. You'll get the credit you deserve

when it's all said and done. It's too important. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, all the things. Like that stuff is all just a matter of time. Because the world, sometimes it takes people time to catch up. Yeah. But we're having this conversation because of that. Yeah.

Exactly. I mean, the records you make from here, I just think that you've carved out a timeless space in music that's not easy to do. Not many people can be making these relevant, important, you know, whether it's a fun song like Beer and Sunshine or whether it's a deeper song. You sit in a space in music where you can do whatever you want, but that's harder and that's decades of being yourself. And that's the one thing.

It's a long road. It is a long road. And that's the one thing that for me, you know, sure, you know, you want that, those accolades, but the fact that we could go out and tour the summer and play the places we're playing, says more than anything else. Yep. People still want to see us play.

Yeah, the tickets always talking. That's what's talking. That's what's talking. Okay, you don't have to put us on the Battle of the Rock, all for him, but what other band, name four other bands that are out, you know, that came out the 90s that are out this summer, selling tickets we're selling. Selling more tickets than ever. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, definitely selling more tickets than we were when we stopped playing. Yep. You know, and so there's people still, the people know. They know and they're showing up by putting asses in the seats. But that's to me is why the people always talk first. And then the critics and the industry and the boards. the boards of trustees that vote and all the things like they're slow they're slow moving but

it always comes it goes around and comes around and i think the long road is the the long road's the one i realized i wanted to take yeah i think in my youth i was trying to find the tricks yep so i thought it was like magic tricks or and then i realized like now the songs we wrote were not tricks they were just good songs get back to be yourself write songs mean it and let it be. Yeah. And I think you've done that your whole career, whether you realize you were doing it or not.

I think now you could look back on it and go, yeah, I was being myself as hard as it was sometimes, maybe as lonely as it was sometimes. I think it's incredible. Me and my brother, who's my best friend and my partner and everything, he listens to every episode. Like he's the guy I always check with,

hey, what did you think of that episode? What did you think of that conversation? And he always tells me, this is one we were really excited about. so thank you for coming. Thank you for having, man. It's a great conversation. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly.

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