Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Daya

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Daya. During Daya’s first show, she played a trio of covers —  “Ironic” by Alanis Morissette, “Clocks” by Coldplay, and “Good Riddance (Time of Your Life)” by Green Day. In the years since, she’s branched out into a Grammy-winning singer-songwriter who excavates heartbreak with an alt-pop touch, particularly on her new album, Til Every Petal Drops (out Oct. 10). She recently stopped by the Artist Friendly office, sitting down with Joel to reflect on her journey from breakout hit “Hide Away” at 16 to her latest record. She opens up about finding artistic freedom, navigating early fame, and what’s next as she prepares to bring her music back to the stage. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So I actually remember I was asked to play in Times Square for New Year's Eve at the Dick Clark stage. And this was, yeah, it was nine months after Hideaway had been released. So this was still 2015. And I remember I played the show. And then 20 minutes later was at a hotel nearby using the Wi-Fi to turn in my application, my college application. Do your friends, do they say Dea or Daya? Daya. Daya.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. Daya. But, like, everyone in Stockholm calls, says Daya. Daya. Yeah. Okay.

Like, everyone in Europe is, it just calls me Dias. I'm like, that's fine. What's your time split between New York and L.A.? I'm still figuring it out. I just got a place there in December. So it's like, yeah, I'm like, how long can I last through the fall? I don't really know at this point, but I would love. I mean, I grew up.

in Pittsburgh, so I'm like, East Coast Falls are very familiar to me. But I, yeah, we'll see how much L.A. has taken that away from me. How sensitive I am to the cold weather. Yeah. Is it your first kind of time spending like extended, extended, extended time in New York? Yeah. I've always visited. My family has lived there and like my sisters have lived there over the past few years. But it was always my dream to have roots there. And I, I've been here for eight years now. I feel like. Which is like a lifetime. Yeah.

So long. And I was just like, I feel like I should live some of my 20s in New York. This is what your 20s is for. Yeah, exactly. Like go live places. Yeah. So that was, this is like the first like more permanent move. That's great.

Yeah. Congrats. Thanks. You happy? Yeah. I love it. Good. Yeah.

It's great. And now do you still have a place here? I do. Yeah. It's good to be bi-coastal. Yeah. I've had you. I'm sure you have.

some point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my brother lives in New York right now and who's my best friend, Ben, she's like, we're twins. And they have a place there though. So his wife is making a movie. So they're there until January, which is cool. We miss each other, but they love New York and they have a place and they like love their life there. And so they love when they have an excuse to be in New York, but they generally live in California. Okay. Unless something, you know, they need to be in New York, but she's there now making this movie. So, like, they're there for, like, four or five months. And he, he loves it. He's loving it. Yeah. It's his first, his first, like, extended stay there. More than, like, a month. Yeah. Usually they would do a month

there, come back, you know, so, like, it's cool. It's cool to see that. Yeah. And New York's cool. I love, I love the pacing of it. I love the energy. It just feels like you walk out the door. There's so many things to do so many people walking around. Yeah. I live there when I was 21. Okay. Yeah. But not for long. Like the better part of a year, I bought a place and like was all about it. Yeah. And then ended up in California and then ended up meeting my wife when I was going to go back to New York. And then I met her and I was like, I'll hang around. And then I ended up staying because obviously we like had kids and stuff. So we stayed. But we love New York. I actually think we are talking. talking about like our kids are teenagers. So like as soon as they're like out in the world,

like maybe we go to New York for like and live there half the time. Be cool. Yeah. Yeah. Good vibes. And right now especially. It's a good balance for me so far. It's like I have like I also have like a new appreciation for LA when I come back. I'm like, yes. Oh, this is what it's I'm supposed to come here and like relax. Yes. And just have space and like be surrounded by nature and like that those parts of it I feel like really just. jump. I took them for granted, probably too much when I was just living here before. Yeah, we all do. Yeah. But also LA's been through some weird times too. So like, yeah, it's good to get out and come back to it and remember why you liked it.

It's true. Yeah. That's good. Good for you. Do you want to talk about your new record? I would love to. Because it's release week. Congratulations. Thank you. How do you feel? I feel great. I feel like it's exactly what it needs to be. And I'm exactly where I need to be right now in my career. And it just feels like the perfect timing. And yeah, it feels really good. How long did you work on the record?

The oldest song on the album is probably like early 2022. Oh, wow. So, yeah. But most of it was made within the last two years. Okay. Yeah. I didn't really, this wasn't really an album that I like set out with this idea in mind and kind of made it that way.

It was... me like combing through songs that I've written over the last three years. Yeah, that I never got to finish. That I always felt like had something. Yeah, you love them. Yeah. And then like I feel like it was kind of incredible to see them all like come together in this very cohesive way, even though they weren't written as to be part of like a larger

hole when I was working on it. I think that's cool. Yeah. Not many people get a chance to do that. It is cool. And I feel like it also gave me freedom as I was writing it because I was. I wasn't like, this has to be sound this way or tie into these other songs. Like it was, it was a song that I loved that kind of represented like a point of time in my life.

And then later just like stood the test of time. And each song felt important and special to you for some reason. And then you were like, I'm going to finish that one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then when I was finishing it, like I would bring in some producers from the other song. to kind of like help with everything feeling more connected. Prohesive.

Yeah. So that's been the last four or so months was like putting the final touches on it and kind of having everyone who's part of the project like listened to the other stuff and make it all work together. That's cool. Yeah. That's a cool way to work. Yeah.

It wasn't really like intentionally that way. I think it just kind of happened that way. And I think I've reached a point. where I've been releasing like singles and EPs for the last like nine years total since my first album. Yeah. And so, yeah, in that in between period, I've been releasing projects still. But it just didn't feel like I was fully ready to like put a full body of work together in an album sense. And yeah.

It's interesting, though, because when I look at your career, because you, it's interesting because you're, and I say this with like in it as a compliment. you're so young to have accomplished what you've accomplished. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So like, and you probably feel old because of what you've accomplished and what you've had to do to accomplish that. There is this like lived experience that we have from when you're 16 trying to make it, you don't feel like you're any younger or older than anyone else that you look out there

and you see and you go, no, I want to do that. I don't fucking care how old I am. Yeah. I feel like I can do that. And then you do it. Yeah. And you say you win a Grammy or you have a platinum song or you have whatever experience of success that we could measure the success of something because we do have to measure it somehow.

Right. Doesn't mean that a song that wasn't platinum isn't more important to you than one that was because it could mean something more to you and it could be a different kind of success, which I believe in. But if we looked at you on paper and said, this is what she's accomplished, people are going to point out this award the amount of sales or streams or whatever and you've done a lot and you've maintained a large audience right when you do that from a young age to now where you're still young you can sometimes feel old yeah because of the experience yeah you know what I mean totally

and also people don't treat you like a 16 year old yeah when you're starting out they're like oh you're 25 just like everyone because you have to be mature to be in those rooms and be in those places. And it's like playing in the league. Yeah. Like when you get that opportunity, whether you're 16 or 18, you're not on the kiddie stage. You are on the adult. You're in the fucking world.

You're talking to adults. They're telling you stuff. You grow up real fast and you have to be real serious to stay in. You could have had a hit at 16, 17, 18 and be gone by now because you couldn't handle it. So you're like, I'm just going to go over and do these drugs and zonk out because because and pretend I'm partying, but really I just can't handle this. This is too much. It takes a certain person. This is why I would bet on you long term. Oh, thanks.

Because not only are you talented, because I know I've seen your like musical abilities out there. Like you play stuff, you play instruments. You write songs. You have a presence, right? You make, you make compelling art, videos, pictures. You can go on stage. You can sing top line on someone else's song. You can do a lot of things. Thanks. And you may early on get pigeonholed for a little bit to a big song or some moment, right? If you just stay the course as an artist and trust your feeling, trust your excitement, trust your joy, trust your creative force. Yeah. You can live outlive good and bad, right? Like any moment that you think is bigger than what you want people, like that happens to all of us. You just have to just continue to go back to the core of you, which is I want to

make art and I want to have, I want to like that makes me excited. I don't know why, but I like that or like that feeling of when you get excited. Right. That is like what I feel when I look through your like catalog. Yeah. And I think that like at a young age you get thrown into this business and you have some success. And then it's almost like you're wrestling two things. You're wrestling. You're wrestling the success to stay alive in it and stay yourself in it. And you're wrestling with the dream that you're still climbing this mountain that's your dream. Like I want to be an artist that makes classic music and sing for people and be happy. Totally. Yeah. And that was, I think the reason this album worked out the way that it did. It was because I, it really took me a while to like let

all of that other stuff go. And I think that that's like, I was so young. I was so young. And I was so young. My brain wasn't fully developed when all this stuff was happening. And so I think I was like, oh, people like this for me. Like that's, let's just keep doing that or I have to give them something that they're expecting for me. And that was kind of the narrative that I had in my head for a long time. Even though I was like, when I was younger, I played a bunch of instruments and I was very, I like loved, I listened to so much different stuff. And I, I wouldn't say like my goal, my like, end goal. was to be a pop singer. You're a good pop singer, though.

Thank you. Maybe it comes easy. But I think like the musical part of it was so interesting to me. And I loved writing. And I wanted to write my own songs. And I guess the trajectory that it all took, like I was just in these rooms. And then people weren't really expecting me to write. And it was just, I was kind of like just felt like this thing.

Well, it can get away from you. Yeah, and it's not a good or bad thing. Like, I don't regret any of that. But I think it did take me a while to, like, go back into myself and find what really excites me in music and what really, what I'm artistically and visually interested in and kind of marry all these things. And I feel like for the first time, like, feel really confident in the stuff that I'm making. it feels like it does take a lot of these elements of like pop and some of my earlier stuff, but it also incorporates like some weirdness and some just like... Yeah, artistic.

Just more exploration. I feel like I felt very free making a lot of this. So it's... I'm gonna'amena. And like my music, my hair can't with me and has to be able to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine of Sebastian Professional, has all what my hair needs.

Nutrition Profunda, Protection Contraxed against the Encrepado, 99% less of rotura and Puntas Abirtas Bajo New Motion 9 of Sebastian The Secreto Professional, of who not seeinceding tendances, but of who those create.

Artistic freedom. Yeah, exactly. It's real. I see it. It's really interesting because I don't really do a lot of preparing for these conversations, but I like to try and get a sense of someone before I sit with them.

and then I try to make sense of them when I sit with them and then I see where those match up. And it's like something I just like to do. It's just I enjoy that, right? And I was thinking about your career. And so to hear you say it makes so much sense because I was thinking, okay, success at a young age is a really, it can be a really bad thing and it can be a really good thing. generally it can lead to a lot of bad experiences i think and and that's just the nature of like i had success at a young age too but not that quite that young but like at 20 21 i you're my i my growth got stunted and i'll tell you why i was from a small town i had no idea what fame

meant what really meant like what the forget about the idea of fame but like what it the the the lived experience of it and like what you have to manage when you're dealing with like success of any kind yeah and different levels of like infamy right or or notoriety or attention and then people's perception of what you're experiencing versus what you're experiencing then there's money learning about how money works and what how does money make me feel and how do i relate to it then there's drugs and alcohol yeah how do i relate to drugs and alcohol all these things that are suddenly put in front of in this world of adults and people and people that have been doing it a long time and they know everything and they're so important and you're just you and what do you know and you're just in

there from little wherever town America and like these are the industry experts and it's just this big bag yeah totally you get all of it and it's important you're like oh my god everything's important and more important than me yeah because I just kind of hit the lottery here right but that's not true you're talented you work hard you saw an opportunity you tried you saw the chance you took it and you're actually coming from an authentic genuine place where people are trying to do what you do authentically they're trying to recreate it when they're in these rooms and like you come in and you just spit out some fucking lyrics and some melodies and they're like genius and because it is because you're not thinking is this a hit is this a that

if you're just being you yeah and you're painting you know it's hard it's so hard to get back to that. Back to that. Yeah, exactly. I feel like that's what everyone's trying to do is just like get back to. That's what we actually try to do once we have a success and everyone takes that success and makes it something else. Yeah.

And then we're like suddenly tasked to chase it. But not by our. It's like we're not even the one saying we should chase it. We have all the experts around. They're like, you should do another one like that. And you're like, well, I don't even know how I did that one. I just. Yeah.

No. Yeah. Like TikTok's going to love. what it loves. Yeah. It's always so rare. It's, you can't predict that stuff.

But I say all, I say that to say that and now when I sit with you and I get a sense of you, I go, oh, I would bet on that person because I feel I see talent in what you do out in the world. And then I sit with a person who's actually feels like grounded in what they're doing now, which is the most important thing you could be is like, forget about the results.

I like this record. This is how I made it. You're not bullshitting about how you made it. You're telling me exactly how you made it. And I go, oh, that makes sense. I actually wish I could do that. There's, like, probably about 30 songs I have out of hundreds that I always go back to and listen to. And I'm like, why do I fucking love that song so much?

Right. No one will ever hear it. Yeah. And then I'm like, well, why are they not going to hear it? Because of me? They totally could. Yeah. Yeah.

Also, like, they're not completely random and all over. Like, it does make sense to me. Like, there's a, it feels like there's a theme and all this stuff. But I. But maybe you. were writing that album without knowing you were writing that album. Yeah. Maybe your subconscious artist was writing that album the whole time and was like, nope, we're going to put this aside. This is an album. And like it came to your consciousness when it was time when you were ready. Yeah. When like I really

truly believe our subconscious writes most of our good songs. Yeah. And like it also guides us when we get a feeling like or oh, you know, like we get good and bad feelings. Agree. And I think like the pressure of like like you need to make this like I feel like I faced a lot of that like just you have to put this song out at this time and whatever like just all like and you can't really put deadlines on these types of things I mean I think it's probably good like for me I'm very much a perfectionist and I like um or like I grew up that way I feel like now I'm way less but um yeah I think it's always just it puts so much more weight into the and then you just start overthinking it and it's just like not helpful to the creative process.

So I'm lucky that I was completely without restraints or anything. I was just like, yeah, I think that that's like my subconscious just came, like that was the only way that it was going to happen really. I feel like that. Yeah. I think that's really cool. Yeah. I also think that you've been, and all things being what they are, and again,

is a compliment to everyone. You've been lending your artistic special sauce, right? Your sauce. We all have our own. to other people's brands. And if you don't think that that has affected and made their brands better, more credible, more interesting, more fun to interact with, you have to take some credit, as well as them taking some credit in helping you develop your confidence, develop your craft,

develop your audience, all the things we develop as artists. like there's a mutual experience there there is this idea that like we all win together we succeed together and if you do well that is good for me yeah some people choose to see it a different way like yeah but it's not the truth the truth is is like every time an artist wins another fucking angel gets their wings right like every time a new artist it breaks out and becomes solidified and has a life and has a career and has a platform and can make more art, the world is a better place. I believe that.

That's why I'm in the business of trying anyways to help artists get there because I love the story. I love the, this is where I'm from and this is how I did it. Because most of us, we didn't have an uncle in the business. And it's okay if we did. Like, I hope I'm some, I hope one of my nephews is. like, I want to be in the music business. I'll be so happy. But most of us didn't have that. So we navigated these weird winding roads and we were just trying to make it. And at the time, we would have done anything. Right. I would have gone on. When I was 16, 17 and I was with my

band, I was trying to make it. I think of like American Idol call, I'd go on there. If they called, I'd go on there. I would have just done anything to make it. Yeah. Because I wanted it so bad. Yeah, you guys spent some time like going to radio and like that's kind of how you guys got started too. Yeah, we were like doing everything. We had early on did like MTV stuff. So back when like TRL was a thing. Yeah. And it was like the MTV days cable TV. We were like on our first record by the end of the first record some guy at MTV. I was like you guys are you guys are cool. We should give you a late night show. We did this like weird late night video show. We just played music videos. Oh, that's cool. It was a good experience.

I don't know. It wasn't very big, but like it was like, it was a great experience. But also it got us in the MTV ecosystem of like they played our videos a little bit more. And then we were on TRL. And then like that was a huge part of how we had success. And that was just our story. It wasn't like it wasn't our corporate strategy. Yeah.

It was just like we literally person to person. and we would go everywhere. We meet everyone. We were like, you know. Totally. I loved that. Because I thought that really, like I feel like my path was very similar when I first started. Yeah.

Just like going to radio stations and begging them to play my song. Yeah. And doing all the interviews and like being like really nice. Yeah. Because sometimes, you know, like most of them are nice. But every now and then you're like someone who is like just maybe it's character. I don't know. Maybe it's like integrity.

I don't know. you're going to end up running into people that lack integrity or respect or character. Yeah. You know? I think it's also like. And you're eating shit a little bit. Yeah. The station, like, I had to like really earn my spot.

I was doing like the lounges and like the radio winner stuff and, um, where it's like 15 people in a room and it's hard. I was just singing to track and I had never really performed like without an instrument before. And so it was just like. And that was someone else's idea. I'm sure because it's cheaper and it's. Oh, yeah. And I was like doing my hair and makeup.

I never did that before. Like all of this stuff. It was very DIY. My mom was like driving me around to all of these stations. Wow. But I think it honestly made me a better performer. It makes you tougher. Yeah.

Because when you're eating shit like that, because that's really what it is sometimes. It's not to say that some of those stations didn't give you an opportunity and didn't support you because they did. And some of them probably didn't. Some of them probably didn't even think twice. And there's a little bit of everything. And I don't even look at anyone as, I'm not saying this to say any of them are bad.

Like everyone's just being what they are. But when you're going and trying to make it and you're showing up to that radio lounge and you're playing for those 20 people. And you can feel when people care and you can feel when they don't, you're eating shit. Yeah. Yeah. And you just get up every day. It's a tough crowd.

Yeah. But you could have quit. Yeah. You could have said like, but I'll tell you what I think. I think that you love music. And I think you love singing. That's true. And I think you love that more than you hate being uncomfortable.

Yeah. That's a great assessment. Pretty simple. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, this is what I have to do. So I'm going to do it. And to me it was more interesting than like being in high, being in class in high school.

So I was like, I'll take it. Did you like homeschool? I took my last, my senior year online. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I don't, somehow they let me do that.

And I was still able to graduate and everything. And your mom was really supportive? So supportive. Yeah. She was like, yeah, if I didn't have heard that none of this would have happened, she was really like. That's really cool. Yeah. She was awesome.

And she's always like, she's a great business person. That's great. Yeah. She was always looking up for me. So she's helped you manage things. Totally. That's great. Yeah.

That's really nice. Yeah. I had sisters. I've, I come from a big family. I'm from like four sisters. And so three of them were. Yeah.

Wow. So three of them were at home at the time. So it was like really a sacrifice for her to be touring. Because we basically did that for like seven months straight just toward the U.S. Yeah. For radio stations like over and over again. Yeah. It's really hardcore.

Yeah. And it's not like it's paying you. It doesn't pay you. No. So you're not out there making like money. You're spending money to be out there. Mm-hmm. And you're risking, you know, actually risking a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. At the time, that's everything that you have. Yeah. No. It really was. Yeah. I thought it was exciting, but also stressful and also like really, it was, yeah, it was

really hard for me to, like, adapt to that lifestyle. But then I, I mean, yeah, we made it work. Was that on your first record? So I released my first single hideaway. when I was in high school, when I was 16, so it was April of 2015. And then kind of after that, I, it was just meant to be, like, I had written it at this writing camp, and it was just like, this guy who was in radio, was interested, wants to be my manager, wants to also be my label.

I met him through this songwriter who worked with me on the song. And so that just kind of the pieces just like randomly were falling into place. And so I was like, okay, I'll release this and put it out and on street. Like, because I'd never released anything before and see how it goes. And then we did that. And then it just, yeah, some like smaller town stations because he would pitch it that, the guy who worked in radio. And he was like a radio promo guy. Yeah.

He would pitch it and some like smaller stations. stations would pick it up. And then at that point, we were like, okay, this is kind of cool. Like, people are hearing this song and thinking that there's something to it. So, and then probably like a few months after that was when my mom and I were like, okay, we should try to take a shot at this. Yeah. Get organized. Yeah. And really get after this. Yeah. What would you say was the moment where things tipped and broke in the favor of like, oh, I think I'm going to do this. I think this is working. Yeah, I'm going full time with this.

This is like, this is breaking in the direction we needed to break. The momentum was starting. Yeah, there were a few moments like that. I think I was kind of like always still like, maybe I'll go to college and maybe I'll do something. I mean, I loved music and that was my dream. I always wanted to do it full time. But I think just like the logical side of me was like, worst case, this doesn't work out. So I actually remember I was asked to play in Times Square for New Year's Eve at the Dick Clark stage.

And this was, yeah, it was nine months after Hideaway had been released. So this was still 2015. And I remember I played the show. And then 20 minutes later was at a hotel nearby using the Wi-Fi to turn in my application, my college application. Okay. Which college? To NYU. you. Okay. Did you get in? I did. Okay. I deferred. But yeah. Impressive. But yeah, no, that was

kind of like the double life I was still living at that point. I'm very glad I didn't go. You could always go back. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. I always thought maybe I could go to college. I still haven't. But yeah. It's there. Yeah. It's always going to be there. More education. Yeah. You've learned a lot in the last 10 years, though. I'll tell you. that. Yeah, I wouldn't, I think I wouldn't trade that in for anything. Well, I think it's important to actually call it out though and like recognize. And I wish someone would have with me at an earlier age, because I think I started to kind of understand what I was really doing in my 30s, you know? So my 20s was largely unconscious and just trying to survive and go and go and go, go, go, go. You know, I was so

afraid of like losing it and not having this like dream that I you know wanted to achieve so bad but I didn't realize that actually you don't lose it you make moves towards success or you make moves away right and there's like things we could call moves away which are like bad habits or you know bad behavior or all kinds of things and then there's moves towards success which is trying putting out music promoting your music music, taking opportunities versus overcomplicating them and making them go away. You know what I mean? So there's like behavioral patterns, right? But what you've done in the last 10 years, if you step back, you could say, I have a master's degree in likely like three or four categories in business,

building a business, building a brand. In marketing, marketing and promotion, there's these categories that if you really looked at it from like an intellectual place, you could say, like, I actually have the hours and the experience. Yeah. And more than someone with a master's from Harvard Business School, you know, which again, when I think of the best business school, if I could think of one, I go, oh, I'm probably like Harvard, maybe. And then I go like, but someone who's gotten a master's there in business, have they done what I've done? Yeah. It's all about the experience. It is. Yeah. And even like songwriting too like I was in the room with like some of the best songwriter pop songwriters at the time like six years ago or seven years ago and that was like a huge masterclass in songwriting and like

also just trying ideas and then getting some of them getting rejected and some of them um sticking like just like and seeing what works and how people work and how the session got put together and that's another thing like if you think about it at 27th. Are you 26? I am, yeah. Okay. 26, you could go teach a class at USC on songwriting if you wanted. And you'd be probably more competent and experience than likely whoever's teaching that class.

I mean, I'm not, I don't know who's teaching that class, but like there's a good chance. Yeah. That your resume is pretty stacked. Yeah. It's a cool thing that I have gained all of this through literally just like. Being yourself. Being myself and also like living out my dream. Like I don't know.

It's so cool. I feel so lucky. Yeah. Well, there's a little luck. But I think hard work and optimism and trying really hard is the key. And I think what you see the difference between someone like you and and someone who hasn't made it, there is a difference in the amount of times you're willing to be rejected. The amount of times you're willing to fail. The amount of times you're willing to go to be optimistic and go, yeah, I don't.

know like it's not the result i wanted but i got to keep trying and um and then also being able to go to an opportunity right so-and-so calls and they're like we have this song we want you to sing on it and you sing on it and you don't get in your own way yeah because i see that a lot sometimes where there's an artist and they have an opportunity and something like it's something like anxiety maybe or something or maybe it's like trauma from some bad musical relationship or some maybe it's like a bad manager or a bad label person. There are some bad actors, obviously, in the business that we've all dealt with. There's also a ton of good people and building a good team takes time.

You're just like finding your people. But that trauma can also like stunt people's ability to like see an opportunity and just do it. Don't get in your own way. Don't overcomplicate it. don't be a bad time. Yeah, that's a really good point. You know what I mean? Yeah, that was, yeah.

Takes good instincts though for that. Yeah. And that's something that I, I think anyone is going to make assumptions and build narratives and what, like, I feel like that's like a natural thing for us to do. And I definitely would get like caught up in that. And I think it's hard. Yeah, it's hard not to.

And you want to like just say, oh, like, I don't know. just the industry as a whole, like, yeah. Like, I think there were definitely points where I was like, do I even, like, want to do this anymore? Just because of people that I'd met and experiences that I'd had. But I actually think that makes me think that you're sane. Yeah. Thanks.

Because, like, I feel the same way. Yeah. And you probably, yeah. At the end of the day, I go, nope, still love music. Yeah. And still worth any pain that's still worth it. Yeah. That I have to go through every now and then.

But also, as I get older, just. take my emotion out of it sometimes and go like this feels right for me that doesn't feel right for me it's not personal so i can a no can feel like a yes i can tell someone like i love you this right now this isn't for me but i but i really feel like there's something we could do in the future or whatever and because a no doesn't have to feel like a fuck you it can feel like like this just in me right now and like when we learn out to navigate that way without the emotion without all the like extra i think we we can navigate a career a little. It took me a long time to learn it because I was the same.

I was like beat up by a couple things. What do you mean by that? You know? And also like your identity is so tied to like your work. So I feel like it's different from other jobs where you can just be like, have distance from it naturally. I think you're just like you do take. Like I took so many things so personally,

which in hindsight, like it wasn't really about me all the time. So on the other side of a decade. Yeah. How do you feel? I feel good. I feel like I am in the best place with, like, especially with the people that I work with. Like, I just feel like there has been so much creative freedom.

And I just feel like, yeah, I just feel great. And it's just, it feels like it's all coming very naturally, which is like the thing that I was, I think, working towards for so long. And now that it's here, it's just like, that's awesome. This is what it feels like. That's great. I think that's how it should feel. Yeah. Yeah. It's great.

I mean, I'm working a lot. I've been traveling, like, more than I have in, like, the last few years this year, doing shows and finishing up the album. And I've been writing a lot of it in Stockholm, actually. That's cool. Yeah. I really just have found, like, my people there. So.

Who do you like over there, someone you're working with? Robin Sternberg. He did a lot of. the album. He actually like came in and off after the fact and kind of like. Yeah, he's a little bit of a finisher. Yeah, he's a little bit finisher. So he's been great. And then this guy, Sebastian Fierre, we've done a few things together and he's amazing. I feel like there's just so much talent over there. It's awesome. Cool to be in Europe too. Yeah. Different vibe. Yeah. It's good vibe. They have a good sense of like work and play there.

I feel like when they're off, they're like pretty much the whole summer. They are just like see a yeah. Yeah. They go to the like summer houses. Yeah. Like we're going to the lake for two months. Yeah. Yeah.

It's great. Cool. I don't know what that. Like it couldn't be America, but. Yeah. That's kind of amazing. Yeah. That's probably why they're so prolific.

They shut off and then they come back and they're charged up. Totally. I know that's what happens. So that's been great. Are you going to tour with this record? I hope to. I haven't actually done like a proper tour tour since my first album, which I was 17 when I toured it.

So that would have been, yeah, almost, also almost nine years ago. And yeah, I think like since then I've been doing a lot of like one-off shows and festivals and stuff like that. Yeah. So I think it'll be an adjustment. But I. Well, you've got to build it. Yeah. And I love, I would love to have like my audience again because I feel like all.

of these other dates are kind of like college shows and it's a very diverse audiences, which is really fun. But I think it would be really nice to have a sense of like community within my own audience. I think it's, I know exactly what you're saying. I think it's really important. What I would do, because here's the thing, you have put so much time, effort, energy into recording and releasing music and now you have this record. The touring part, because you haven't paid as you haven't spent as much time building it you have to kind of look at that as like another startup and the first part of it will feel really hard but once you do it even if you go out and you're like I don't even know how many tickets I sell right like you have to find out so that first

time around I would just encourage you to give yourself the room to like be frustrated and figure you're out like, okay, where are we at even with touring? And then once you do that, though, and you establish that base, it gets easier because you're stacking on and you're really like, you're seeing like, oh, in this city, I do. Because you might go and in one city you're doing this many thousand. And in this city, you're like, I'm only doing 500 tickets. Why is that? Well, you find out why.

But you have to go do it. Yeah. And if you just embrace the process and you make it less. tied up in the overall success, it'll happen fast. Where I see people that have, and I mean this in like a, I don't know how I'm trying to say it, but like uneven levels of success in different areas, right? Where like they have this huge recording career, but they didn't write anything. And so their publishing and their writing career isn't what they want it to be. But that's because they didn't spend the time in the hours in the studio, but then, but they should. They can. But it's almost like,

you're not starting from the same place that someone who is just starting and just starting a tour is. You're not. You're starting in a place with an incredible career, but touring is the one last missing piece, right? Yeah. So that's going to feel like you're breaking ground. Yeah, exactly. And as long as you just are open and you wrap your head around that with optimism, you're going to do it fast.

If you get in there and you wrestle with it, you might slow yourself down because you're too frustrated with what you want versus what exists. That's a great point. Because I've been touring for 30 years and touring is something that we've always done here. Like it's a specialty of ours, but that's just because we grew up in it. And where we see people sometimes get in their own way is when they want what they don't have, but they don't realize in order to get it, all they have to do is step forward and

not judge too harshly. Yeah. just put the time in the varying ticket sales and like it's and just embrace it yeah and you'll have a good time doing it and you'll be surprised by the results probably yeah like you'll be like you'll have favorite cities because some song popped off there and like and and the tickets were really exciting because they flew and yeah that's a great night yeah I'm excited yeah I think it is going to be like kind of going back to the early stages of yeah what's your favorite city I have probably like a list. And it would be like countries maybe. I would say like top of my list, Brazil. Amazing.

I've always wanted to play there. Like incredible shows. Energy can't explain it. I feel like the crowds are just nuts. And then Argentina, Chile. South America is amazing. And when you go, if you give them love, if you go and you're plugged in and it's not, who cares how many it's sold. If you just pour your heart out, you go back and it's 10 times bigger because there's something about the people there and the culture there. They want to connect with the music. Amazing. So I would say that. And then the UK is amazing, like amazing shows. Just people who love music and will stay with you for decades. Australia, we've always like killed. Amazing shows. Same. Like, if you go to Australia and you are and you're not just grabbing a check if you go and you just like you give it

you're all those are the places I feel like we were born to play because for us money was an amazing things we didn't have it but it wasn't why we were doing it when we wrote the song we wanted someone to like believe in us and there was something about like someone when they when you go to these certain places you can feel they believe in you like you feel like someone's like saying you can do it. That's awesome. And like that's what I always struggled with was like, can I do this? Should I even be here? Yeah. Like they look so much cooler than me. Totally. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it is like a hard thing to gauge also when you're just like I have just like I have been like releasing stuff and not really seeing the real life impact. There's nothing better. Yeah. When you when you like hear people singing with you. Yeah. It's unbelievable. That's still my favorite feeling in the world. And also me to

them like you do meet and greets and you're out in the city or wherever and you meet people and they share stories and they i found that those stories were a part of all those stories were always a part of the next thing we did like people would share with me and i would bring that back with me and then somehow it would make its way into like the music and the songs oh it's amazing it's pretty cool yeah it is this like reciprocal relationship yeah yeah i love that But that's awesome. I'm excited for you. Thanks.

The record, the tour when it happens. Yeah, when it happens. Yeah. Well, I'll have to let you know. Yeah. Would you open for someone first or would you just go do your own tour and then? Yeah, I would love to open for someone if it's right. Right.

I love. Right vibe. I love, yeah. It's awesome to like tap it to someone else's audience and feel the support from that. Are there any live shows you've seen late like in the last year or two that you really loved? Yeah, I feel like this has been a big year for me just going as a fan to concerts, which has been really fun. I saw Catrielle I Paco Amaroso. I don't know if that's how you say their names.

They're from Argentina. And I feel like that resonates what you were saying about those crowds because I went in New York and it just seemed like there's a very big South American presence there. And it was just like such a fun energy. It was like one of the best. It was just like a show where I just like forgot where I like what it was like able to be very present. And there's such good performers like such good musicians and have a great live band. And yeah, they like really blew me away. That's cool.

Maybe you should start in South America. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I've never. That's the one because I've been, I've done some stuff in Europe, done Australia, Asia. Which I love touring Asia. Yeah. It's so fun.

And everywhere is so different there too. It has such a different personality. Indonesia is really fun. Yeah. Philippines too. Those would actually go on my top 10. Indonesia and the Philippines, both the shows are wild. Yeah.

People go nuts. Yeah, Philippines was one of my favorite shows for sure. But yeah, South America I haven't done yet. So I love to do that. But yeah, I love opening. I opened for Cindy Lopper on her, like, return tour for girls just want to have fun this past year. and that was like so much fun. And she's just such a force and such an amazing presence.

Like, just the fact that she is like putting on the show that she is now and people are still showing up dressed like her like 30 years ago from when she was releasing in the 80s, yeah, 50 years ago. It's crazy to think about that. Yeah, it's so cool. It's so cool to see her legacy in that way. and just how long she has been a part of these people's lives. And she's such an awesome person.

She's so funny. So those shows were really, we played the Intuit Dome in L.A., which was awesome. And then she invited me up on stage for girls just want to have fun. That's cool. For the finale moment, which was really fun. Where would you say you interact with your fans the most? Like online? Like Instagram or TikTok or what?

I would say Instagram, probably. Maybe a little bit of TikTok. I'm not always on social media. Yeah. I mean, your social media is cool, though. Thanks. The stuff you put out is cool. Yeah. It feels authentic. It doesn't feel like, I don't know, like I'm not even judging anyone, but sometimes I see people that I get it. We're all trying to figure out. We know we have to do it. I'm included. I'm trying to figure out like who am I. Yeah. I want to keep up as much as I can. So it's tough. I see people that I go, oh, they seem like they have a pretty easy time with it. Yeah. You seem to like know what you do on social and you do it well. Yeah. So that's cool. I like it. I like that it connects me with people from all the all around the world.

Yeah. Yeah. It feels like a fun way to like as an extension of the art that I make and the visuals that I make. Like it feels like a fun way to connect in that way. I think it's like I don't personally love to like spend a ton of my time on social media. But I do really see like how amazing it is when it when it is great.

Yeah. like we have to find our the way that we do it so that because when someone is when someone hears your song or they hear your name or they want to they go to your instagram page or your ticot and they look you up and then that's how they they go oh okay oh i got i got a pretty good idea you know without bending over backwards and tying yourself into a pretzel to try and make everybody happy and keep up with every trend and do everything i get that from you and actually think that's a really sane way to live. Yeah.

Hello. Yeah. It's just like, I think it's like, it's a great tool. It's great that we have it. I also like when I started like I, like you guys, I was just going up to places and like these radio stations and stuff. And I was just like there wasn't really the social media aspect of it wasn't as important. And I didn't even have like social media in high school. Like I was.

Well, my friends made like a joke Instagram for me. And so I was like, it was fully new for me to to get into the world of it. But it is a great tool. That's good for your sanity. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm very impressed. Yeah, this is great. You've accomplished a lot. I hope that you stop and take it in and hold it. And I'm sure you do. But if you haven't heard it from anyone, it's such a vast landscape that we're in with so many artists and so much going on. And it's very fast moving. but what you've accomplished is really hard to deal.

And I know the hours. I know I can feel it. Yeah. And your resume, if we just put it on the table and read it, right? Anybody that has that resume had to put the hours and all the good and the bad and the, and everything in between. I hope that you feel as accomplished as you are.

Thank you. And I hope that the next 10 years, I think you're really going to do a lot of damage. You're going to fuck shit up if you just continue to like, you do exactly where you're doing, which is be yourself, lean into how you feel, and keep singing and making songs you love.

And I love to see people succeed. And I love it when I get to sit with someone and I get to put the two together because you have really such an accomplished career. Thank you. At a young age. Thank you. And I think it's going to be exciting to watch you

over the next 10 years. I hope you come back on the next record or whenever they're launching something. This was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, or when you launch the tour or whatever, anytime you want to come back. But I'm excited to see what like the next few years are. Thank you so much.

Congrats on the album. Coming from you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, congrats on the album and I can't wait to see the tour dates go up. Yeah. I will definitely let you know. Yeah.

And I would love to go back anytime. Yeah, please. Thanks. Thanks. All right. Thank you for listening to artist friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow.

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