Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Elliot Grainge - Part 1

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Elliot Grainge. As the CEO of Atlantic Records, Grainge embodies the very ethos of “Artist Friendly,” promoting a hands-off approach and trusting the process. Before stepping into that role, though, he was releasing independent music through his label 10K Projects, founded shortly after graduating from Northeastern University (using money earned from flipping an apartment in Boston). Over the years, he’s signed a slew of talent, including Ice Spice, iann dior, and Trippie Redd. During the episode, Madden sits down with his brother-in-law for a rare and personal conversation. They dive into family, fatherhood, and the music business while reflecting on love, loss, resilience, and what it takes to build a lasting legacy. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly on this episode. I'm talking family, life, business, and the music industry with the founder of 10K projects and the CEO of Atlantic Records and my brother-in-law and one of my best friends, Elliot Grange. Let's go. Well, I'm honored to be on it. Dude, I love that you're here. My brother-in-law.

Where should we start? Should we... So I was standing in the shower today. You were thinking about me. I was thinking, okay, I'm excited. I always wanted you to come on the show, but I didn't know when that would be because there's no like, you know, we're easy.

Like, there's no pressure. If you asked me to come somewhere, it's an invitation of like, I'd love for you to be there. If you really need me somewhere, you'll go, hey, I need you to come. Other than that, it's like, we're easy. It's like, we could not see each other for six months

and be fine. Or we could see each other every day for six months and enjoy that. Do you know what, though? I was saying this to, I was saying this to Sophia today about this with you and I. There's not one day that goes by where it's not a TikTok or a real or a text or a fortnight. It's we're constantly in each other's lives. Every day.

Yeah. It's really nice. It's a true beyond friendship. It's like, I met my best friend. Yeah. And my brother through my wife. Yeah.

That's what I was going to say is I was standing in the shower thinking about you. Yeah. Nice. And I was like, we're going to talk to Elliot today. What am I going to talk to him about? There's so much that I want to talk to you about. On one hand, you're someone that I admire, right? You're a killer.

You're fucking great at what you do. You're ambitious. You're hardworking. You're smart. And you're someone in the music business, which is the business I love, that has built a very dynamic and impressive. career. So there's that aspect of you that I fucking love. But then there's your, my brother-in-law, and we met through my little sister, who is, you know, on the list of people that I love.

It's like Sophia, my kids, Nicole, it's this group of people that are my, my heart and soul. And I met Sophia at a time when, you know, she's seven or eight years old and I have always felt responsible for her. And so I've always had this like very special view of her because I feel responsible for her. And I've got to watch her grow up into this is an amazing woman who's fucking fierce. Yeah. He's super dynamic, very strong and impossible not to love. Yeah. If you know Sophia, you love her. Anyone listening or talking about Sophia Ritchie, obviously a big star in her own right. But to us, she's, she's my little sister, she's your wife. The real special about Sophia is the person you know. She's funny. She's smart. She's quick. She's very strong,

fiercely loyal to who she loves and calls for that as well. She's a strong, in my opinion, like a strong, fierce little woman. And Nicole's the same way. I see it. It's tough. Puff. A strong. They're strong women. Smart, strong, very specific. They know what they like. Maybe integrity is the word.

You can't sway Sophia with things that might sway most people. She's very, she's very to herself. She's more impressed by the quality of a person. Anyways, you guys get together and that's how we bet. That's how our love is. therapy can. Well, actually, do you know what? So I was very, her and I, we'd been dating for a long time. We'd been dating for almost like, I think, about eight or nine months. And with you and with Nicole, you know, I sort of, as a kid in growing up in Great Britain, we grew up on Good Charlotte. There was

the show. There was Nicole in Paris' show. I didn't watch too much of that, but obviously everyone knew it. But you knew it. Same. I didn't watch much of it, but I knew it. Pretty good show. You and Benj and I mean, good Charlotte, that was my, that was my childhood, that sound, that moment in time. And so I remember meeting you for the first time. I remember driving, we drove up to your home. And I was, I don't get nervous when I meet people for the first time. I don't really get that starstruck. I was pretty nervous about meeting you.

And Sophia was like, look, he's very, you know, he's very protective of me. I've got this great bond with him and you know, you're going to love Nicole Nicole's going to love you. Joel's tricky. Joel's tricky. So just, you know, don't, if you guys don't connect immediately, just it's okay, you've got nothing to worry about.

And so she sort of, I was kind of nervous. I was intimidated going into your home. She did a good job prepping you though. She prepped me and do you know what happened? I never forget you opened the door and it was like, I don't know how you feel. For me, it was almost as though we had been friends all of our life.

That's genuinely how I felt. Yeah. Because you look like this intimidating guy, right? You're this like tough. I'm being serious. You're this tough. You're very handsome, by the way, but you're this tough guy. Ruggedly handsome.

Rugged. You've got the beard. You've got these incredible tattoos. And it's sort of like, you know, I wouldn't mess with you. If I saw you, I wouldn't mess with you. And so you give off this intimidating aura. But at the same time, you have this very soulful aura. And you have this aura of, I see you.

And we got on. Immediately, it was a very, very, it was quite a bizarre experience. It was bizarre, but it's how all my great friendships have started. When I think about all my great friendships over my life, all my best friends. Chemistry, isn't it? It's chemistry, and it's honesty. If you don't have your guard up, I don't have my guard up. Like, we're dogs, you know what I mean?

Like, you and me are dogs. I'll meet you where you're at. If you have your guard up, I have my guard up. If you have a gun in your pocket, I have a gun in my pocket. You know what I mean? That's exactly what it was. And I think we were just open. We were open because we love this woman.

And we both have the best intentions for her, me as a brother going like, I just want her to be with someone who sees her, who loves her, who knows what she's actually worth and values the right thing. Right. And I think that I saw it a mile away with you right when you walked up. Because I was like, okay, what I would do with any guy was I'd say, let's go for a drive. And we ended up going to Pinkberry. So I said, you want to go for a drive? And you said, sure. And I was like, well, there was no hesitation there.

I like his confidence. But immediately, there was no guard up. So we got in the car and we just started fucking talking. And we get to Pinkberry. We get all this frozen yogurt. And then we eat it all on the way back. and we take the long way and like we end up by the time we get home we're best friends. Yeah.

And that was it. And then from that point on, I actually was just like, God, I hope she marries this guy. You know what I mean? Because also, Sophia is not one to be told what you want her to do. So I was very careful because once I met you, I was like, oh my God. Leading up to meeting you, Nicole was like at about four months in or five months in, Nicole's like, you need to meet Elliot. And I was like, eh, let's see.

if this is real. And then finally it was like, yeah, eight months or something. And she's like, Joel, this is getting ridiculous. You have to meet Elliot. And I was like, okay. She's like, they're coming on Sunday.

And I was like, okay. And she was nervous too. Nicole was. She was nervous. Everyone, it's weird. I don't know why they get so nervous about me meeting someone like I'm like some kind of pit bull. Because I'm not.

I'm just, I can't hide my feelings maybe. I'll tell you what it is. You're very protective. You're very, to the people that you love, you have this very paternal, strong, protective...

Nicole says it's like a silent growl. Yeah, I think that's probably right. Look, you're very protective to the people that you love. It shows your loyalty. It shows your heart. So, I was very happy when I met you, and then we went on that drive.

I'll never forget it. And we were best friends ever since. And we've been best friends ever since. Yeah. It didn't take long. That was a medium's chemistry. And in fact, I think that when a, Marriage is good. It brings the whole family together. And I think what you and Sophia's marriage has

expanded on is what I think me and Nicole, we've been together for 19 years. We've been married for 15 years. And I think our marriage has built this kind of like this family center, right? And I think that you and Sophia's marriage has expanded that. And I think we have this really lovely family. that we've built together because we all participate. And that's actually what it takes. Yeah. It's participation. It takes communication.

Me and you talk about it a lot. Like we all come from different family dynamics. Nicole and Sophia obviously grew up with Lionel, who was on the road a lot. And they grew up in a much different environment than me, which was more of like a broken home. My home was like truly broken. And then you have this other family dynamic, which I love, which we can get into with your dad and your mom and your family. But I think all those different family dynamics meet in the middle with this group of young people, me and Nicole, you and Sophia, a generation below us, that want to have a nuclear family that like participates. We love our kids.

We actually just want our kids to have these like nice lives with memories. memories, family, holidays, and it feels like that. You know, when he came to your guy's house for Christmas, and your dad's dressed up like Santa Claus. Yes, he was. Which is insane to think about, right? But that's the only dynamic you want for your kid. 100% is granddad dressed up like Santa Claus.

He would dress up as Santa, Santa. We called him Father Christmas at the UK when I was very, very young. He was very good. He was a great Santa. And, you know, it's about tradition. You want to continue those traditions. It's all about the picture. Yeah.

You see the picture every year. But for Elieuiz, it was like the perfect time to tell him to get the Santa Claus costume out again. Back in action. He was a great Santa Claus. And C.G. was a great Mama Claus as well. They were great. She had a few too many drinks at one point. And so she forgot to take her, what was it, Mama Claus?

Yeah. Yeah. Costum off. And she's just passed out on the couch. The red of it, the white is amazing. It's very sweet, and it says everything about, you know, your family and what now we all get to share, which is these, like, these family dynamics that I think are really, for me, very healing and very sweet. And it's all I could have ever hoped for.

And between Benj and Cameron, me and Nicole, you and Sophia, I think we have this really, like, super, sweet, loving core group of people that all are there for each other when they need it. But also, it's a really interesting, super dynamic like family tree when you think about it, which is where this started, this family tree. I don't know. When I step back and look at it and try to observe it as like not inside of it, I think it's really special and interesting. So of course, people are going to be interested in it. I think we're all so different as well. Your background, Sophia. Nicole's background, my background, I think it shows you that you can come from any walk of life, any background, broken, non-broken, and if you respect someone, if you connect with someone,

there's chemistry, it just doesn't matter. Yeah, you can, love is love. 100%. With you and Benj, you know, we talk about it all the time. You guys, you know, you're sort of like the brothers that, you know, I've got two sisters. I'm a middle child, so I've got a younger sister and an older sister. and an older sister who I'm very close with. I love them.

And I had quite a complicated childhood. My upbringing was sort of quite odd. Your like Genesis story is very interesting. And also I always wonder, because I know it, and you can obviously share it. But it's extremely hard to imagine. When I think about your story, how you started when you were born,

the story with your mother, right? I can, it's, it's, it's very hard for me to imagine how someone can go through that, make sense of that in a way where I, because I know you so well, come out of that, such a balanced person with the attitude you have. Thank you for saying that. Look, it's a very tragic story. It's a story I don't think I could have shared on this platform. I think obviously our relationship and we talk.

I think Sophia and Eloise, our daughter, I think, has been very healing for me. Yeah. Gives a very different kind of perspective. But it's a very sad story. My birth mother, Samantha, she was giving birth to me. She suffered complications and it left her comatose for 13 years. So she, during your birth, went into a coma. Correct.

And for 13 years was in a coma. Yeah, she passed when I was 13. Wow. So she didn't make it. And so my... But she was in a coma your whole life. Correct. Until you were 13.

Until I was 13. So sad, confusing. I would visit. It was very tough. She couldn't communicate. Tough. You know, I was the only person that I knew that with that circumstance. And so I remember very young when you're sort of, when you're conscious of it, you know,

you go on play dates at school with friends and they're talking about their mommy and their daddy. And, you know, I'm very. lucky because you're meeting their mom correct and you're going on play dates well to 13 that's a lot that's your formative years that's zero to 13 is everything but when i think about i didn't know 13 i didn't know it was that long yeah that's really hard to wrap my head around it's very very sad but you know in all the sadness look the relationship that i have with my dad is very unique right he's my dad he's at times been my he's had to been both parents yeah that's also a side i think people know your dad as one figure in the world and that, you know, obviously Lucian's had so much success.

And so again, like when we talk about who the world sees Sophia as, they only see the headline of the work. And most of the time, that headline defines the man that the world sees. And certainly your dad is a fucking, I mean, I don't even know the word for it. He's, he's definitely one of my heroes. Me too. but certainly he became that when I got to know him because of the relationship you guys have. He's a family man.

Yeah, he loves his family. It's funny, you're 100% right. People get the headline from whether it's media coverage or industry coverage. He, well, he's accomplished so much. But at the end of the day, what I would see what you love about your father actually has nothing to do with that. That's a byproduct of the man, right? and how he works. But actually what I see the relationship I've seen you guys have now when I hear the story

about your mother, which I actually didn't know it was 13 years, when I think about the dynamics of that and what each of you had to be for each other, because I bet he would say that that 13 years was hard for him in a different way, right? But he's sitting there trying to comfort you. And you're in a way also helping him through it. And so together, I think you guys probably had to become such a team and so much more than a team. I mean, I can only imagine when you go through something like that, how close you become. Well, his background's quite interesting.

There wasn't a lot of money there. I think my grandmother, his mother, Marion, I think at times she was the breadwinner in the house, she was a chartered accountant. I think she was the first female chartered accountant in the UK at the time. So she was great with numbers. And there wasn't that much, there wasn't that much financial security there. So I think he was 24 or 20,

I think it was 24 or 25 when his father passed. He was very, very, very close with his dad. That's a young age to lose your dad. You know, Cecil, which is what my middle name is. So my middle name is named after him to honor him. And my daughter, Eloise, her middle name is Samantha to honor my mother. That's really sweet. So he was very close with his dad.

He loses his dad and he then loses his job. And then he, a few years later, he meets my mother. They become soulmates. They get married very quickly. They have me. Then the tragedy happens. And he loses his wife. And then about six, seven months later, he loses his mother.

So it was quite, it would have been a complete, complete. Yeah. It would have been very, very, very tough for anyone for him in particular. That kind of loss, a lot of people don't come back from that loss. It devastates them. He's a tough guy. He's a resilient guy. He's the tough, one of the toughest guys I've ever met.

It's funny. I respect tough, strong people. He's one of the toughest. Sophia's one of the toughest. And Bond is just, it's unbreakable. It's total, it's completely unbreakable. There wasn't that much money when I was born. My aunt became this sort of this, this mother figure in my life for the first four years.

She still is. And her sons, who are my cousins, Mitchell and Nikki, they were my brothers. Right. You're very close to them. I know. I've met them. Yeah. They're in the 40s.

They've got kids. They're the best. We speak a lot. And it was a sort of my aunt became a maternal figure to me. My cousins sort of became who were in their teens at the time when I was born. they became my siblings. And then when I was four, my dad met Caroline, who is my stepmother, who is basically my mother.

Yeah. So we were alone from zero to four, and then four to now, I've had CG, who is currently in the process of adopting me as a 31-year-old. Well, that's really sweet, though. Yeah, she's, I mean, she's also my best friend. She's amazing. I call her, I think I drive her nuts. I call her multiple times a day.

She's the most wonderful grandmother. I noticed that about your family. You're like very much like my family. Me and Benj, me and Josh and me and Nicole, Benj and Cameron, we call each other all day long, text each other all day long.

We have a similar shorthand because I think when you've lost someone, there's an anxiety around the people that you love that you need to. know they're okay. And so a lot of times I'm checking in about this, but I'm really just reaching out to tap you because I need to feel you there. And I find myself doing that a lot. And it was really comforting when I got to know you and when we got so close to see the way you relate to your dad is a lot like how me and Benj relate. Yeah. We call each other about everything.

Big, little, small, should I do this? Should I get this thing? Should I like, or some whatever. and it's interesting because like a lot of people have trouble understanding that because there's a vulnerability there. I don't know if it's spiritual or not, but you know, you and Benj, and your whole family, but you and Benj in particular from what I've seen,

you were meant to be on this realm together at this time. That's how I see you and your dad. That's exactly, because that's how I feel. And he'd say the same. Yeah. Whether it was past lives, you know,

people use the term soulmates. Yeah. And they use that about their partner, but I think it can be, It could be so brothers or so parents, but not to get too deep into the spirituality of it. You and Benj were meant to be here together. That's how I feel about my dad. Yeah.

I feel that way about everyone that I love and certainly Benj and me were very close. I feel that way about Nicole, though. After 19 years, I see a similarity in our relationship that I have. It took some time to get there because I don't think she was ever, I don't know if she ever had a soulmate. She was always kind of alone. And I do feel like we have that connection. I think that way about you and Sophia. I think as I see you guys growing together more,

you go to the next level, the next level of life. And of like discovering what life is all about. I do think, and like me and you, we've talked about it. I was like, I don't know if I believe in past lives or not, but if there was a feeling of a past life of someone that you've somehow been through some shit with, I always think of you as one of those guys where I'm like. I feel like we were like, if it was a past life, we were on some battlefield together or we were in some. We were in the front line.

You know what I mean? Like I always feel that way about me and you because we have. You had mine. Exactly. Like unsaid. Hard to find in the world. But I think it's the relationship I see you have with your dad that comforts me. And that makes me go, I can trust that guy.

Because Benj and Josh, I've never had a question. It's never about work. It's never about money. it's never about whatever. There's just a sole understanding of I'm there for you. Yeah. And I also believe in you. And I know whatever you're doing is for a reason.

So I have your back. You know what I mean? And I see that with you and your dad. And I also think going back to your childhood was I don't want to stay too long on because I feel protective of you. And so to share something so intimate and deep, I know people know that. information, but it's your experience of it that I'm protective of because no one had to go through that, but you and your dad, as it pertains to your family, to your nuclear family, to what you come from,

your origin, right? And your origin story, though, I've always thought it's one of the most interesting ones I've ever, I've ever heard. And so I also think that, flash forward to now, you're one of the youngest, maybe the youngest CEO of a major record company. If you're not the youngest, you're one of them. So what does that say? Well, you're an ambitious, smart guy who works hard. You don't get there. I don't care who you are.

You do not get there unless you work your ass off and you're fucking smart. And you have, the proof is always in the pudding. These billion dollar businesses are not handing over the keys of leadership to people who don't have a track record that's proven, and the arrow's got to be pointed up, right? So you're this young, ambitious guy who's got to be tough in the world. Well, you had a good example of that with your dad,

but that doesn't always mean shit. We see plenty of cases of people who had a great example and don't have the grit to stay in this business. I'm Anna Mena. And, like my music, my baby is a bit of and has to be able to be able to

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It's funny. So first of all, for some reason, my whole family has always been in the record business, in the music industry. Yeah, it's interesting, right? In my grandfather, Cecil, he owned a record store. So he sold vinyl. He sold vinyl. Okay. Love it. And, I mean, we're talking mid to late 50s, early 60s in London. Right. Before the Beatles, you know, he was, you know, you only do that if you love records and you love music. So it sort of started with him. And my late uncle Nigel, he was a very, very successful, independent label entrepreneur. His company, Ensign.

They had some incredible artists. He signed Thin Lizzie, NCC, The Water Boys. One of the first records that he broke was... Was he your dad's older brother? Older brother. Okay. So your dad obviously looked up to his father. Yeah.

And then obviously his older brother. I think, so yeah, I think, I think that's right. His older brother would take him to a lot of the shows. Right. So your dad admired him and looked up to him. Absolutely. They were close. Yeah, he was, he was a great character. I mean, if he loved something, it was the greatest thing ever of all time. It was, you had to love it. Yeah. But it was everything. It wasn't just with music. It could have been with food or it could have been with TV or a movie. Yeah, he was just an enthusiastic. Oh, he was a critique, but if he loved something, it was the greatest thing of all time. And if he didn't like something, thing. He hated it. It was absolutely repulsive. I love those types, though. Yeah. He was so passionate.

Oh, he was a great character. And he had great success in the 70s, great 60s and 80s with his company. He sold it to, he sold it to Chrysalis. Yeah. That ended up part of EMI that now, funny enough, full circles, now part of that, that part of EMI is now with Warner Music Group. And so, all, all kind of full circle. Yeah. That's right. At a sort of,

you know, the parent company that owns Atlantic. Yep. I've been very lucky that I've had since I was born these models.

Yeah. My uncle. My father, of course, my cousins, they were in the music industry. My cousin Nikki, when he was 1617,

he discovered Amy Winehouse at the Brits school. He managed her for, for many years. So I've had... So you grew up with all this music business and music industry and music happening all around you all the time and you're just watching it all.

So, you know, look, it's a funny thing. When I was very young, I remember going into the office to see my dad. He's a single father. There's not that much disposable income. And what was he doing at the time? He was A&R. He was an A&R. Okay.

He was an A&R at a company called Polydor. job actually. Very tough job. Like finding your way as an A&R is so hard because you're playing kind of in a company where you need to deliver results. And you're also trying to find real music and talent. Well, he was juggling as well. He was a single father.

So he was juggling being, you know, essentially he'd lost his wife. He'd lost his mother. And he was juggling being a single father and also trying to put food on the table. Where would you say in that time he was getting his like emotional support from his dad and his brother, you think? So his father had passed about 10 years prior. Oh, that's right. You said when he was 24. Yeah.

So he was, he's very close with his. So he's got. So then he lost his mother. He lost his mother. So he's got three siblings, one my late uncle who passed. He's got one older sister and one younger brother. And they're very, very, very close. They're incredibly close.

both live in the UK. So I think that was a big part of his support system. Do you imagine that? So think about it, 24 you lose your dad. It would have been inside of maybe 10 years that he met your mom. They have you. She goes into a coma. He loses his mother all inside of 10 years.

You know now. It's a blip. It goes fast. Inside of a decade would absolutely crush people. In fact, I don't know if I have, I like to think I have the stuff to get through anything, but I don't know. I lost my father in 2019. We had been in each other's life for 10 years and I was devastated.

I think there was a lot of hope wrapped up in the relationship that I'd always wanted. I always, I'm a guy's guy. I've always wanted a father. You know, like I love that relationship. I love that like camaraderie. What I get to have with Sparrow. with my son. Like a lot of what I model is what I see with you and your dad. I see the closeness and I see the- But you guys have always been close. You and Sparrow, you know, and Kate, you've been a

great, since the day I met you. But to think about, to think about what that time period would have felt like, it's amazing that- I think he went through hell. I think it was an incredibly, well, obviously, it was an impossible, very, very, very tough time for him to be. And he survived. He had his siblings. He had some great friends. And I think, you know, now I've got this bond with Eloise. Right. Our one-year-old.

And she, for me, she's incredibly healing. I think I get, between her and Sophia, I think I get, I think it's been very healing. I get some of the relationship with them, some of the love that I wasn't able to get from my mother. Right. And so knowing that, that exists, that bond, that healing bond exists. I think my dad would have probably had that from me as a baby. Also, he would bring me into the office. So my experiences around music were from birth, where he took time off when I was born

to sort of just get his life together. Then he had to go back to work because he didn't have any money. So we had to, you know, he had to take care of a family, a sort of family, real life. And on some of the days where my aunt couldn't take me or we weren't able to have a babysitter, I would go and sit with him in the office. So I listened to mixes. He was an A&R guy. I listened to mixes all day.

And you'd hear conversations and you were just clocking everything. Yep. That was my upbringing. So that's what I actually think, first of all, you guys are just fucking a couple of Gs. Right? You had to stick together. Yeah. That's what I love about family, what I hoped for, was people that we could just stick together.

Right? Because life is full of pain, loss, suffering. for everyone, for all of us at some point. I don't care who's listening. Some people listening are going, yeah, I just lost someone. All they've known is loss. There are people who are listening

who haven't known loss yet. They will. It's the truth of life. To know that we have people that we get through it with is the only comfort, because there's no other comfort sometimes with loss. Shit happens and tragedy can happen. If you've got, if you're lucky enough,

to have people that you are bonded with, they help you through very, very tough times. There's always light in the tunnel, and obviously you can't see it. You know, pain and heartbreak, it's a journey. And the morning is a journey. Loss is a journey. It doesn't just happen and you're okay the next day.

There's a process. And if you can find people, family or friends that are with you from that during the darkest days, you will get through it. And I think that's one of the lessons. But, you know, to go back to the story,

So I would go to the office with him. And I remember, as you say, listening to meetings, picking, picking mixes, going, listening to AB mixes. You're like, I like that one. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But that was, that was what it was. I used to go to meetings.

I used to go for lunch and dinner meetings with him and other executives or people he was doing business with artists. And so I kind of grew up around it. And so I watched him go from, you know, sort of an ANR executive to running the business affairs to managing director. So I watched him as sort of a young conscious child, but sort of almost a young adult. You watched the arc of his career. I watched him work his way.

Yep. Through the world and navigate this fucking crazy business we're in where it's like a deceivingly tough business. It looks sexy to everyone else. When you get in it, you realize it's all coming at you from every angle. And you have to navigate through all kinds of. I don't want to put a negative spin on it because I do feel like the music industry gets a bad rap. There are certainly bad actors in any business, though. Like anywhere, you can find fraud anywhere.

I find it to be a place full of creative thinkers and hardworking people. And when you find the right people, you do really good people. business to think about you as this kid watching your dad build his career and you're in the front seat with him because that's where he keeps you right because you all are best friends i think about i always bring back the floyd mayweather right floyd mayweather grew up in the gym around boxers that's where he grew up so he was clocking everything and what does he become the greatest fighter undefeated greatest fighter of all time our conversation continues in part two I don't