Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Franklin Jonas

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

Listen in as Franklin Jonas joins Joel Madden on the latest episode of Artist Friendly.  Earlier this year, the youngest member of the Jonas family shared his debut EP, Sewer Rat, which chronicles growing up across five songs.  It’s a feat that he calls a “labor of love,” one that he worked on for years as he discovered his voice as a working artist. Franklin will be on tour supporting Dope Lemon starting October 6th. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Video Editor: Ryan Schaefer Sound Engineer/Audio Production: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On today's episode, I'm talking to Franklin Jonas. Let's go. That's my kind. I don't want no bad times. I don't want to have bad. When was your first time out on the road, like on a tour?

I don't even, I was like hanging. I was so young. Their first, like, tour that I was, like, a part of was like an assembly tour in Jersey. Right. And I would have been. Of, like, schools? Yeah. schools. So they were just traveling.

Their brothers, your brothers were. Yeah, yeah. And you were the little, you were the little brother. Four or five. My dad was driving. It was. Right. So it's like a family ordeal. Yeah. Like Osmond vibes. Because they were also like, they were young too at the time. So how much younger are you than your brothers? So I'm eight years younger than Nick. Okay. And Nick's the youngest.

Nick's the youngest. And then I'm like 13 years younger than Kevin, who's the oldest. 13 years younger. That's a gap. It's super, yeah. Also, you're like with these, like, guys at your young age who are becoming, like, teenagers and are teenagers and are going through all that. So you're just getting all the information from all different angles. You're with the tour manager in between, like, the fucking stage time and they're going to do a radio interview or whatever.

And you're, like, backstage running around with roadies and tour managers and, like, production. which is a whole like totally different way world yeah and like you're not at a certain point you know very quickly uh you're not going to like school public school anymore you're not going elementary school and you're you're on tour and you're filming and you're doing all sorts of shit that's wild it's a very different way of life it's cool it's really cool it's and it's you know it's taken me it took me a long time uh and a lot of like therapy to like get to a place where i like I'm so grateful for how unique of an experience I had. Right, but also acknowledge the like experiences you didn't get to have.

There's a give and take with everything. Good or bad. Duality, right? Therapy for me is the same. Like I had to come to terms with my experience with my own career, which I thought I wanted. I did want it. Yeah. Because we're artists, so we want to create things.

But I think we think we want a different thing when we start because we want the people like for me. I wanted people to like me. I wanted a validation. I wanted to feel like valuable or special. So the drive of making my music was to get people to clap for me essentially, right? Like to get people to like it and then feel like I was, you know, special. And then I realized like after having a career, having success and going through that thing. and there's always like a there's always like a duality to her right there's always a good and bad to

everything so there was a great part of the career but there's also a bad part of the career and and i think um i went to therapy just to work out like i never processed what part of my career was good and what part was bad also could i reimagine why i want to do it instead of getting instead of validation can i validate myself can i just be feel can i feel just good enough to be me. And you have the space to have both. Right. And can and like from the start could I have had I been like had I had a different childhood right, which we can't control also like where we're born, how we're how we're brought along. You know, it's like you're just going to roll along with the family that you're born in and like you're just going to like acquire the baggage you acquire over the over your over your like childhood.

And then all the way through your adolescence. And then you get to adulthood and you have to kind of dump the bag out and start sorting through it. and figuring out what do I want to keep? What do I want to lose? I never processed that. I never dealt with that, right? Mm-hmm. I got to a point, I mean, because I had sort of just, like, lived life as best as I could,

given the unique circumstances until I was about 19 and or about it turned 19. And I kind of came to a head where, like, I was just sort of realized that I needed to to address how my life has affected me and how I have affected my life as a result of that. And I mean, it took to a couple pop, being a basis in a couple pop punk bands for me to realize that I needed to. The therapeutic side of music. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I was a screamer.

I was a screamer back in my day. And it got to a point where I needed to like really address some stuff. And I got really, son got real low. But it's because of all that that like, I'm able to do music now, right? And I'm able to... Your music's good, too, now. I mean, not to say your music before it wasn't good.

Your music's good, dude. Thank you, man. It's really good. Thank you so much. I was struck by it. I didn't even know about it. I did not know you were doing music. And then when I heard you were coming on here or that you were interested,

I was like, oh, like, let me check the music out. And straight up, that's... Of course, I'm interested to talk to you. But, like, I feel like, this shows a musical show. Yeah. And like, everybody that's on here, I feel connected to their music. Like, I feel like something about the music speaks to me or whatever.

And I'm telling you, dude, your music is good, dude. It's really like. You don't know how much that means coming. It's really good. Like, truly, like, when I say that I got my start in pop punk bands, like, I got my start in pop punk fans. And so that truly is a really... The music's real, man.

It's real. And I think that I can feel the... I can feel a lot of things in the music and I always listen to music differently. I'm not just kind of, I'm a very critical listener, you know, and I always analyze. Like, I think I've just been like listening to music for so long. I can analyze it in real time and really like take something from it. Anyways, I listen to your music and I can hear all of that. And, you know, of course, your life has been super interesting.

Right. So I expect to hear, but not many people can open up in a song and share in a way that's not only pleasant to listen to or, or makes you feel something, right? Whether it's happy or sad or whatever, it makes you feel something. But also do it in a way where they can actually, they can tell a story in a way that we can listen to. And it's just a, it's a, it's a. very hard thing to do. Thank you. Right. And so I was, I really like it. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. You know, I think that going into this, we knew that regardless, people were going to have their expectations or their anticipations. And so it really was like an understanding that we had to big dick it as much as possible. And people were going to have their assumptions and their associations no matter what. Always. Of course. And I'm lucky that I get opportunities as a result of my,

association and my brothers you know i guy i your family exactly i get um but like but i definitely we had to figure out how we could tell these stories from as personal and as vulnerable uh of a perspective as possible that's what i took away from it that was like dude is the world to be he's sharing in a way that feels personal but it also like you you you got there the thing i like the most about the music is it feels uniquely it feels like, oh, this is an artist. Who is this artist? When I heard it, it's cool, man.

I mean, I personally, like, take it for whatever you want. I thought the music is why I wanted to talk to you. Right? Because our show, like, this show, this show is not a, God, it's not like a, this is a very personal show. Yeah. This is only people that want to be here, here. And the people listening to, like, they are, they're not.

interested in the same stuff that I think like pop culture today or the internet today goes after anything that'll trend for the day or anything that'll just like click get people to click for the day like we're running at a different lane with this like with these conversations but like man I thought that the the music was good and then of course you know um your life is super interesting and your family where you come from of course that's interesting to people but that could make the music worse that could make the music like if you're not being honest and you're trying to do something for a different reason like i think it's a very hard it's a very fine line that you have to like be honest and like and and make the music you want to make and then but you're really

incentivized to do the latter option, right? You're incentivized to do the, to in some way, if the shadow is that big, to some way, like, fall into it in your own sort of sense, right? Or just, like, make the shadow bigger and be a part of it then. And I think that it was definitely, that's part of why I wrestled with, like, not doing it for so long. And all this music I wrote therapeutically over the course of many years and never expected to show it to anyone. never expected to do anything with it. In fact, I, like, showed it to people who run my label and they signed me. And then I, like, ghosted them for like a year because I just, I just, yeah, I was terrified, right? And I was so, I think there was so many, there was so much that to wrestle

with in regards to showing the music to an audience beyond, like, three people in a car, right? And so but to be received for that is is really special. So thank you, man. It's real. I'm dead serious. No, and it means the world to me. Truly, like I, I, this whole journey of showing it to the world has been both super surprising and super devastating and super, you know, confusing at times.

and because naturally because of the massive incredible success that I've been able to be around for a lot of my life, I can look at like what I've always wanted to do, which is like being an artist and being someone who makes music that's not for everybody. But for myself that then people might resonate with and might enjoy. And I can do that and release it and have it be exactly what I experience. or wanted of my musical career and then still be like confused or disappointed as to why it's not it doesn't look like something else and I have to remind myself I'm like oh wait no like I I intended for this to be like a very personal and intimate thing that uh may not be for everybody and uh oh it's for you exactly exactly I think that you have grown up in a family that is super serving a lot of

people they are super serving like a like I mean you think about like like the Jonas brothers super serving their fans, right? Like they're known to whatever, but like you've grown up around a family that's doing a lot for a lot of people. Even before that, my dad was a pastor and a gospel musician. Well, there you go.

That makes a lot of sense, actually. Oh, yeah, all about serving. So it's like a certain, there is like a super serving attitude towards like fans and this and that. And you grew up in that. This is my perspective. Yeah.

I'm just going to tell you. So, it would make sense you'd be conflicted about what you think people want from you and you and maybe why I love the music is it does feel like you made it for yourself like I hear something that someone just did because they wanted to do it and it's cool and so like it's like someone tinkering in the garage making something and then coming and showing you like look this little thing I made and you go like that's fucking dope dude you should make another one right like a guy doing a little sculpture that's just cool.

You can't do a thousand of them. You can only do one. There is something about doing something for yourself that is, especially in music and art. And then there's something about doing something for other people. And there is like this thing we straddle with as artists. Like we make it for ourselves. And then sometimes we make it for them. And sometimes it starts with yourself and it grows beyond and it grows into something else.

And like, I think for me, like, the Jonas Brothers first record was like a pop punk record. Yeah, yeah. And like that first, it's about time, I think it was called. It's like, you know, they're wearing Ed Hardy and it's 2000 whatever. And then I, that was for them. And then it became, it was like just like they were trying to make an MXPX record. I just had MXPX on the show. So sick.

That's so tight. Legendary. For the sake of this. Just had them on the show last week. Yeah. But yeah, I just talked to Mike and Tom yesterday. Dude, I grew up on that. That's funny.

And I grew up on them in the house. It was like them and Kirk Franklin. It was very weird duality. But like Christian music is a world. Even though MXPX will tell you like they're not, they were never like defined themselves as like a Christian band. Yeah. They just were, they were just owned by that audience because they were.

making music that like at the time when they were young teenagers they were like 14 15 16 making his records and Mike was like going to youth group and he was singing about what was his life at the time what he was thinking about at the time yeah and like and they're good guy I mean they're very like Christian like guys I guess yeah think about like what is a Christian I don't know like maybe someone who's a moral ethical person they want to be treated yeah yeah although like we could we could go to We're at a hole of like what Christians are today and how they're, how they're labeled, which I don't subscribe to any of that. Yes.

When I say like good Christian, it's like treat your neighbor as you want, treat yourself and, you know, do you live your life based on you, there's religious Christians and then there's like, just a good ethical Christian guy. Like that's what I think. Duality. He's doing like. There's a duality to do it. He's like trying to be like Jesus, you know, which is a good thing.

Yeah. Like, that's a revolutionary idea. Anyways, in XPX, they, they, they had this big Christian audience. And we went on tour with them early on. And we got a lot of that audience, too. So we were always kind of associated a little bit there. Anyways, so. But knowing that your dad was a preacher.

That's a whole other, like, we could do an hour on just what that's like to grow up in a, like, super. I mean, I would grow up in a super church house. too. Yeah. Like my mom was like the religion is the answer. This is how I'm raising my kids. I think that was the blueprint for, you know, how she wanted to raise her kids. And so a lot of challenges there. But like we went to church in the height of our of our childhood, Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Friday night service. Sometimes. Yeah. And then Sunday was twice, Sunday afternoon, Sunday night. Oof. All right. That's legit. Yeah. You were there all the time.

Dude. Yeah. No, I, um, yeah, I mean, I mean, it's, I'm lucky that my dad was like, my dad was a cool pastor. Cool pastor. He was a cool pastor and he liked stuff that wasn't. Little song type cool? No, no, no. Cool here.

I wouldn't even, I would not call that cool anymore. No, but, like, you know, I know, I know you mean. I know, I know, I know you mean. He doesn't like in. No, not like that. No, he's definitely not that. He's not, he's not on preacher sneakers. Yeah, that's for sure.

No, he's like, no, but he was like one of the first guys to put like electric guitar on goth music type of guy. Cool, cool, cool. Okay. And a nice guy in general. A good guy and understanding guy and like not going to condemn someone because of their life choices. Right. In fact, like going to love them. Which is like what you said of like a good Christian guy. Like walking in that Jesus step. Just be cool, man. Yeah, yeah. And accepting and loving of everybody. And hate, hate hate hate. Exactly. Just hate, hate. And he was just like, we grew up in a household that was loving and accepting and always, always one of the best for us and each other and the world around us.

You guys close? Me and my dad? Oh, he's like my best friend. That's cool. That's what I hope for. He's incredible. He's such a good person. And I am so grateful that I get to call him every day and ask him for advice.

And also just like check in on him and see how he's doing, you know, and have a relationship that I thrive from and always have and I think always will, luckily. Where does he live? So half time in North Carolina and half time in Vegas. He's got a restaurant chain that he started a couple years ago and started in his hometown in Charlotte. What's it called?

Nelly's Southern Kitchen. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen that. It's amazing. I think I've had it actually. Oh, really? Okay. Because there's now one in the MGM Grand in Vegas. And I worked in the kitchen and the one in Charlotte for like a year or two.

And then he opened up a second one now at the MGM and like crushing it. Absolutely. It's the best. Brandising it. Yeah. I mean like it's or just one of them. It's like just crushing the sales in MGM grant. Like they're doing so well. And like and even the one in Charlotte now is like totally self-sufficient doing its own thing. And looking at expanding and doing their other options. And it's like, it's just the best food. And it's very representative, Nellie is my great-grandmother. That's nice. And, you know, she worked in like a cotton mill her whole life. And so there's like a big mural of her with like a crown of cotton and stuff.

That's cool. It's really, it's very much our family or like his side of the family and trying to honor that. So I'm an amena. And like my music, my cabello can't with me. capable of my rhythm. For so, potion nine of

Sebastian Professional has all what my hair needs. Nutrition Profound. Protection contraughts

against the encrespaid. 99% less of rotura and puttas abjirtas under control.

New potion Nine of Sebastian Professional, the secret professional of who who don't see

tendencies, but of who people. Convient your passion in a business

with Shopify and batte records of the form of the form of

the You know, the best conversion of the world. The incredible system of of the website,

facilita the website on your website, in the website, and in whatever that's music

for your eyes. No, let's more about, your business will be

a great idea for a year of a month on Shopify dotes bar records.

Where's he from, North Carolina? He's from outside of Charlotte. Oh wow. And this

little mill town. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, uh, he like essentially like ran away from home to go Does he still preach? No.

Oh, that's cool. Right when my brothers got big he sort of took over more management. Okay, cool. And then, but he's still like, you know, he still tries to be a good guy every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably, yeah. I mean, preaching is a lot of, it's a lot of work. Yeah, but you'd be surprised how much of a carryover there is from like that, from preaching to like being an artist manager, right?

Yeah. I'm like trying to be that guy too, but it makes a good manager out of someone, I think, and like rather than some manager that you've heard stories of, I'm sure. I mean, there's more bad managers than good managers. There's definitely like some great managers out there. I think it's like a low percentage. I think that it just because, you know, because the music business is, is anyone can be anything.

You can come into the business and print a business card and say, here's my label. This is, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, record label. Yeah. And that's how most people get their start, which is great. There's a democratization of it, which is an aspect of it that's great. But some really untalented, bad actors can come in and create and have, you know, fluke success with an artist and then, you know, so and then there's everything in between. But I think there are some really great managers and great management is a key part of like a great business and and there's fits so there's managers that could be a fit for this guy but not that guy whatever so i mean we could talk about that for a whole episode of of this just about

management but um a good manager it can change people's lives it's good good management and an organized business you can really build momentum and have you know success that you build on over time you can really have like a long great career with a great organized. My dad was my manager my whole life up until I started doing like TikTok stuff during quarantine and sort of went on the path that then has given me the opportunity to be where I'm at now and finally be You know a musician if you will and and He brought me to a guy went to him and was like listen. I love you dad. I want you to be a part of my life as much as possible, but I think I need someone who's not you to manage me and I'm

Yeah. And just because I want you to be my dad. He'll always advise you though. Exactly. No, he's a consultant, right? He's a consultant for me. But he's, I was like, I need you to be my dad more than I need you to be my manager right now. And he brought me to his friend who's like, I love you, Barb.

She has changed my life and like been like a fairy godmother to me and to the point where she's like a second mother that has adopted me fully and is there all the time for me, no matter what and uh that's great has yeah really totally and like has been not just a business side but like a personal side and like been a mentor and uh a role model for me to strive towards what's her name barb cool yeah yeah but she like started in music originally and so was doing influencer stuff and then now is like back into the music thing because of me and because of all this other stuff that we've been doing so that's dope but you grew up around the business So you know, you have instincts.

Like, you know what's up. I think, yeah, but it's definitely different going into it yourself. And like growing up in the business, you really think about like all the ways in which you could be the antithesis of like what is and is not. The things that work are the things that like, how do you do it that's so different that no one could ever see it coming and da-da-da-da-da. And I've spent and, you know, I've only performed a handful of times. but because I've spent my entire life watching people perform, there was less of a hump to get over of like, how do I get on stage and do this?

I very quickly was able to like drop into myself and be able to like really push to this image that I had dreamed about of performing, right? And same with the music of it was, it took a long time for me to get the balls to, to work on it and finish it, but I had known what the sound was gonna be my whole life. You could hear it in your head.

Yeah, exactly. And it's, and but I think that you get into the situation too, if you're around it so much your whole life and you grow up in it that you speak into overanalyze. Analysis paralysis. Yeah, man, you get so caught in the dream of what it could or could not be. and all the different ways.

I've watched people come and go my whole life. Yeah, you've seen, that's the thing. That's what I'm saying is like, great manager is important. Yeah. Great people around you. A support system. Yeah.

Support system. Key. We win in groups. We don't win alone. We win in groups. But you've been around it your whole life. You know what this shit is, whether or not you felt you were ready to go after it and do what you wanted to do,

like that's a personal journey that you're on of believing in yourself and making sense of what the world's been telling you. Because what you're actually doing is you're growing up in a family that's unique, right? And you could say like, my brother's success or I see all of it. The dad's a pastor, the brothers start off, right? You're this little kid. You're in the car with everybody going along, right? I'm sitting in, if you know, the white van type beat, I'm on the wheel. Like, that's where I was sleeping while we're driving back from wherever they were playing a show from. And you're going along and metaphorically and physically going along in the van with the family. The world's telling us how great.

great this is, and it is, right? Success is great. In any form to a family, it can, it can help a lot and it can hurt a lot, right? And that's just the facts, right? I mean, my family, when we, you know, we grew up with not a lot, we had our success. It affected the whole family, right? Not in a good way, certainly in a good way, but also in a tough way. It's like my brother who looks kind of like me, my older brother is a year and a half older than me how many years did he walk around and get called good charlotte and how long did like and how did he handle that every fucking day when he's a when he's a mid 20s guy in new york trying to build a life yeah and we're like one of the biggest bands in the world at the time and people are like on the street saying hey good charlotte to my

brother right like i talked to him about that and like what is that like and he's like you know I love you guys. It was annoying sometimes. I learned how to deal with it. And we talked about it. And we actually went to therapy a couple times and we worked through some stuff because like you're going to resent some things. Like my sister.

Yeah. She stayed back in Maryland. She didn't want to leave. She was back in D.C. And that's where we were from. So it was a big ass. So there was a big deal there like sometimes. And everybody.

And what the world will tell you is like, it's all, everything's so good. It's so good. It's so good. What do you have to complain about? Not only you or your mom or your dad or your brothers. Why? Like, can we all agree this is good? But it's also kind of like fucked up sometimes.

Yeah. Because the whole world is like telling us something and not letting us kind of make our own judgment of like the perception and the image and like what you have in your family, it gets, it gets out of your control. Out of your control. And like that was a whole thing. And our family at a certain point with me, it was like, I grew up being called the bonus Jonas.

And like, then in a certain point in my life, I was like, yeah, like, I don't love to be called the bonus Jonas. Like, it just sort of is. Yeah, like, if you're asking me, do I want to be called that? Not really, but you're calling me. So what am I going to do? Tell everyone all the time not to call me that? Exactly.

And then, but then they, my brothers were nice enough and kind enough to like take me saying that and really go on a thing and be like, he does not like to be called that. That da da da da da. And now that I'm a bit older, it's definitely in a place. where it's like there's always like in the comments right there's like the debate of like he doesn't like to be someone says like oh the bonus jonathan he's like oh he doesn't like to be called that and at the end of the day it's like i get i don't care i guy it's like i you're like i don't care i don't want to be called it but i don't care like yeah exactly exactly it's like out of my

control right and it's and so and it's the back and forth of that where yeah like obviously it's not my favorite thing in the world however i'm not like i'm not sitting there being like crying. Yeah, you're like, who cares? It's like, it's annoying that your entire fan base

knows me is that. Right. So why would I? But also like, it separates people though, right? If somebody comes up to, it's like,

it separates people. It puts people where you go, oh, you're a fan. I can't actually have a real conversation with you. You don't see me as a real person. You see me as Gumby.

You see me as Mickey Mouse. So, So if you're not talking to me like a real person, what is there to talk about? I'm just going to smile, give you a hug, say nice to meet you. That's what's been really interesting about going on this journey of myself has been the way because even like my brother, like a big fan of my brothers will come to my shows. And like, and it's, I'm doing like a club tour. Like I'm like hanging out or I just got off a tour with Hobo Johnson.

And like, you know, it's like smaller five, six, seven hundred person bars. rooms. Yeah, you're with people. You're like saying hi at the merch table. Yeah, dude, after my show, I'm like hanging out at the bar and like I'm like and talking to people and having conversations. And I think that it's it's definitely, you know, once you get to a certain level, you can't do that anymore. Right. Yeah, it's impossible. Yeah, you can't physically impossible because the amount of people. But like, but that's the real band experience. Like we play 500 to a thousand cap rooms. We play the set. We go down to the merch table. We go to the bar.

We hang out, whatever. But people are going to separate themselves to you. You either see me as a real person and you ask me real questions and we have a real conversation. Or you see me as this idea of this like Mickey Mouse character that's not real that you like, you quote back movie lines to me. You know what I mean? Like essentially. I find that what's crazy is like my brothers, the Jonas Brothers fans, right? that have come to my shows,

my interactions with them are a lot of times more intimate and like personal and like they know me or want to know me. That's cool. Better than say people who like on the street. Yeah, like or like at like a party or like at a bar will come and be like, oh like you're that guy. And it's like.

Right. And oh, you know, sorry. I've never listened to your brother. Like I don't care. You know, I don't care. You're the one that's making a thing. out of this. And I think that they, it's been really interesting to me to get to know them and in a certain level. It's like, we had someone come to our show here in LA at the Troubadour

who like growing up, like she was always at like the radio Disney shows way back. Like you knew her from around. And she was like a super fan. She was surprised that I knew, knew her and I remembered her name. And I was like, are you kidding? Like I've known you my entire life. Like, and so, but there was something really intimate about that and something so personal and being able to be on this, you know, I grew up in other people's come up and now to be separately having my own come up and be supported by the people who were at that come up is something that's really special and really unique. And it's like, I see that though.

The family is really big. I would say like the interaction I have with a good Charlotte fan, like a real one, is so intimate and different. And like they, it's a different thing. They, versus some guy at, like, at a party, like you're saying, like, never listen to your music, but, um, what are you guys doing now? I saw, you know, you married, uh, Nicole. How's that? Like, and you're like, but that's the thing is like, that that's real. That's like a real, like, that's the more common interaction. That is the more common, like, that's the headline interaction. Yeah. Where someone who just saw the headlines over the last 15 years and or 10 years and they know the headlines right and by the way they're like they're the

people who are like in the corner like Googling your name right like google imaging and and the truth is is is that somebody was with him and said oh that's the guy from good charlotte yeah and they're just who's good who oh yeah remember remember the song and then they come over to you because they just want to have their interaction and the truth is is you i want to be like look dude if you just want to say hi you can just say hi yeah you don't have to like if i can make all these weird awkward comments about my wife who you don't know my band that you don't really know my friend that you know whatever whatever and like i definitely have had that experience also around like being in l.A. for 20 years yeah i'm friends with all different kinds of entertainers that have had different levels of success and that are known

for different things and also kids of entertainers right yeah i'm married to one right so imagine Nicole comes up as Lionel Richie's daughter and then has to make sense of the world that way. And then goes into her adolescent and teenage years with all eyes on her. Every fucking mistake she makes gets turned into a storyline of how bad she is and how mess she is. And the truth is, she was pretty fucking normal for the kid who wants to go. and go to have that college. Like I definitely wasn't like a big partier, but definitely I'm friends with a lot of people

who were like had that phase where they went to college or went to whatever and did it all. Yeah. They wanted to do it all. And especially like, so with her, she has to go through all that

somehow lands with pretty intact. Yeah. And pretty not angry at the world. Like I always go like, I would hate the world a lot more if I were you. I almost kind of hate the world for you because it doesn't seem fair that the only thing people talk to her about are these bullshit headlines that got written about her and she

never fought them because she's like, what am I going to do? I'm going to tell everyone like. And then you just put attention to it. Yeah. Make it bigger. Yeah. What I'm talking about, I always use an analogy. I always used to, I have an analogy about the blue skin.

Right? And it's it's I you know at a certain point in my life I tried to be like a more of like a hometown sort of body and I like got out of the LA scene and whatever and I did this and where was your hometown? We lived in Texas at the time and then I went to college in a couple different places. But I always explain it like listen like there's always you know if someone in your town like does something right and if in people were gossiping about it or they're saying something about it. Right. Say this person I don't know. got caught smoking weed. Yeah. Oh man, you hear like da-da-da got caught smoking weed. And you're either going to say like hope they're okay or like whatever. You're in high school, right?

Or maybe you got to check in on them. Something like that. Oh, that sucks. Then there's the kid who has blue skin who does it, who gets caught smoking weed. And then it's like, oh, you hear the kid with blue skin got caught smoking weed.

And then it's very much a different, the emotional because of it's, you know, more interesting or there's something else, some other factor about these people that makes it. And listen, I'm very grateful for my nepotism. I am very, very lucky to be my situation. But it does make you a target to be, to have lack of empathy to, right? And there's an emotional connection. There's an emotional connection that gets lost because of the fact that you Because you're lucky. Blue skin, right?

You're lucky. Like, hey, what's he got to fucking cry about? Oh, I wish I had blue skin because then everyone would look at me. No, no, no. Then you're the guy who everyone looks at. And so it's, there's definitely a, it's, it totally changes the human interaction that happens and how you interact with the world around you and you have to, and I used to be really angry.

And I used to be like, so. I think you're fucking really aware. I am now and that's because I chose to I had that moment we talked about the very beginning. I think your I think your music is super cool and I hear all of that. I hear somebody who's lived a fucking adult life for a long time who's had to process shit and maybe or didn't know they had to. And then like I hear in your music, I just hear if someone that's really mature has lived a lot of life knows people whether whether you want to admit it or not can clock people because you've

been watching them for a long as time. And I just see a smart guy. I also think you, man. I also think it's funny, like, how we've been trained to make sure we say we're lucky. Like, even you just saying, I feel lucky for my nepotism. I have to. You have to because people are going to beat you up if you don't. And I have to say the same thing. Listen, I feel lucky I had my success. And I know that it lives and dies with the people that chose to like my music. I appreciate that. But only to a degree because I'll fucking give it all up to protect my kids. Of course.

I'll give it all up to have my own self-respect. And so you don't own me. And so I love everybody that supports me. Every fucking day, and I'm sure you have the same experience, you come in contact with one person who has a genuine interaction with you that, they appreciate something about you or your music or who you are, whatever, that feels genuine. Or you go, you know what? You're fucking cool, man.

That conversation made my day. I have that every single day at a coffee shop or a fucking restaurant or wherever I'm at. One person a day, always, it's been this way since our first record. I'll have a genuine interaction with them about the music or what it helped. They help them with something, like their life. Like there's a song that they really help them. And that shit makes my day. Yeah.

But that's different than a person who just recognizes the brand and wants to interact with the brand in a positive or negative way. In a positive or negative way, it's just their perception of what they want to get out of it. Some people want to leave a bad review. So they want to come up and knock and go. Fuck you. Right. Who do you think you are?

And I was expecting mostly that from the music. And the fact, and I was expecting pitchforks and like Frankensteinian mobs just for the fact that like and because I spent my entire life wondering. But like I'll never forget the moment that we were walking down the street and we were, I was in the rat costume. We were in New York because I perform in a rat costume and we have like all the canvas, all the videos that we we have behind like the different spots. Spotify songs is me in the in the rat costume doing something. Cool. Yeah. And because it's the, I love rats.

A sewer rat. That's the vibe. And rats, we'll get to rats in a second. I love rats. But I remember in cocaine and Hoboken had just come out. And I'll never forget it because we were walking down the street and this person stops us and goes, hey, you're Franklin. And it was the first time anyone had called me Franklin because I've been going by Frankie my whole life. And I hadn't been like, I'm Franklin.

I never did like some like press. You know what I mean? I never did announce for anything like that. I just started releasing music under Franklin. And I, it was so crazy that somebody, it was like, and it clicked. I said, and I looked at my friend who was helping me film the videos. Great moment. I was like, dude, they know it from the music.

Not from anything else. And it was so vivid. And it was so surreal that like every day I think about that where it's like just that one person was able to. know me from that thing, right? Yeah. And I'm so grateful, too, that I got, my first tour was with Hobo Johnson.

And, like, his audience is the most loving and accepting people I've ever met in my entire life. That's cool. Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen him, but... Dude, he puts on a show. He's an incredible... I learned so much from him. You know, I like...

And that's something that my family's impart on me is, like, you know, you just pick up everything from everyone that you interact with, especially, like, musicians, if you see a live performance, like, pay attention and learn. It's a, it's a lesson. right no matter what it is how we that's how we get better yeah and i grew up watching

the biggest of the big and the most like truly like perfected performers in their style yeah super polished but it'd been a long time since i was up close and personal on a regular basis with someone who is having intimate moments with 700 people for a night right it's a different vibe for sure totally different experience so unique right and But that was such a moment where like the first couple shows, that was really shaky. And then by the time we got to like the Trubador, like four or five shows in, it was, I learned so much from him that like people were then coming up to me after the show a lot. And having like really, even before that, even like when I was in my eyes, like not doing well

the first two nights, like there was still these really intimate interactions that made, me who I've been terrified to do this my entire life. Right. Made me be like, oh, like maybe like... But you wanted to do it. Oh, it's my dream. But you were scared. I was terrified. Right.

Absolutely terrified. And it was having those moments where having someone come up and be like, wow, that was really cool, right? I think it's cool. Thank you. But it's those intimate moments that like made me in some way because I didn't know after the EP if I was going to keep doing it. I didn't know because it was an album and then it got down to EP and then we have a bunch of songs left over and it's like we could keep working on more songs.

We can keep whatever, we can keep looking for tours. We don't know if this is experiment, what this is going to be and how it's going to go. Where does it feel like it's going? I hope it's going for the rest of my life, whether people listen to it or not. I'm working a lot. There's like some songs because it was an album originally. We have a bunch of songs left over that are not on the EP. So there's a world in which we have to get those out, right?

And like a lot of them are, we would know from tour, like, those were fan favorites. Like those were songs that really, we have this one song that we ended on, which is like a super sad depressing song that I wrote like right before I needed therapy. What's it called? It's spaceship. Cool. And it's dark and it's sad, but it's, and it's intimate. There's like a two, or so there's like a minute long jazz.

breakdown where like I recite Ginsburg and like it's it's heady but we end on that and it's a weird song to end on but in our set that's the most intimate moment right and like to harken back again to your thing of every day I still have people that reach out to me from the shows who ask me about that song right and that keeps me going and that makes me want to keep releasing more music and keep doing this and keep wanting to to go on this path and have the courage and the bravery to keep being that guy. I mean for me as an outsider who I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of music for like like just thing I yeah you've been around man so I can always gauge what I feel is real and then I can always gauge what I feel is like good and

then I can always gauge, I don't know, I just have a good gauge on shit that works and shit that doesn't. And I'm usually right. Like I can call stuff. And like when I saw it, heard it. And I wasn't aware. I had no idea. So then I checked it out and really checked it out.

And I was like, yep, this is cool. This is the real deal. And that was it. Like that for me was just the final judgment. It was just like, like, that's my gauge. and it's cool and you should do it because you're good at it and it's good so um it shouldn't even be in my it shouldn't even be in question if the question is just when and how always right like when do i want to do it how do i want to do it and is this like for me that's even like where we're at

as a band it's not about if we're a band we've been a band since high school yeah uh it's more about when and how if that feels right to us we'll do it and it's i think for me it's been the testing of it and having it not be like the worst possible experience right the worst possible scenario that i've dreamt up having it not be that and having it be as intimate as it is it's really good that's why it's funny to me that you would even be like if like can i do this i'm like no whoever did this can do it if it's really you doing it and it's not some other person doing it it's then you can do it me and one other guy but i mean it's is that the connection with miniature tigers yeah yes okay yeah so miniatur tiger's legend charlie brand i love you i adore you uh he helped you with the music and

you guys made it together so yeah we met uh so i signed to my label pizza slime and what's a cool label Super sick label and they're an imprint of Mad Deason Diplo's label. Yeah. And I kind of came in with like demos. And they were very like samplopedia inspired. Like all the song, like the song Hoboken was a youth lagoon sample that got flipped. And then like cocaine is still the closest to the original EP of what it was. But it was like grow up was like a four horseman sample.

into like a Dean Martin sample. Like it was like all this stuff happening. And I kind of went to them and was like, I want someone that can come in and help me finish this. Because I have a degree in audio engineering, but I'm not musically trained in the way. And these are unfinished. These are not.

I get it. I can't be the guy. There's demos. I'm not going to finish them. I'm the same way. I can make a demo, but I can't make an album. Yeah, I can't make, I can't finish it.

I need a partner to help me. I think, one day I might be able to. I think I but I don't think I'm there yet. And I but I was like really excited. I grew up around a lot of kids who nepotism their way into being able to be musicians and be make music. And so I was so excited to like, you know, like date producers and and like have like going a lot of experiences and do a lot of writing sessions. And the first guy I meet, we sit down and it's, Charlie and we're talking and he's and I'm like yeah man like probably like I guess really what made me want to make music was Pinkerton like I listened to that I really young.

I love Pinkerton that album. Perfect. I remember when the album came out and I saw Weezer at the 930 club in DC which was like 1500 people. Yeah. Legendary. Legendary dude on Pinkerton saw them went got in the front at the barricade like I was a Weezer fan. I love Weezer and Pinkerton was an album that just changed my life like the guy who introduced me to pizza slime introduced me to pinkerton when i was like eight or nine amazing and uh great album incredible incredible incredible and it's perfect in every way uh we could just talk about that i'm i could why bother and that's and that's like what i'm you know that's back to what we talked about the beginning too of like it's pink triangle oh my god um but of they made it for themselves yeah they did they made it for themselves

Yeah, they did. They made it for themselves. They got... They got... Beat up on that. And now it is revered. Classic. It is revered as one of their most complete projects.

Yeah. Right? If not the most complete project. It's the rawest, realist. Like, that, the first album and that, to me, were, like, perfect. And the green album, too, I think is just, like... I think... Incredible.

I think that... Pinkerton is just legendary. Yeah. I think that Pinkerton, for me, it was... And like, you know, people have in like comments and stuff, then like, this is, your music is not Pinkerton inspired. It is in theory, right? It is to you?

It is to me. And it is in the way that they treated Pinkerton. And it was like, here's my dick. You know, I'm going to put it on the table and you can like it or you can dislike it. Yeah, that's right. And like, I mean, like, that is what tired of sex is, right? That is that. The first song on the album is just this.

insane. It is so different than their other tracks they've put out thus far, but it is also at the same time, it's their style, but they're parodying their own style in a way. It's just, it's like a, it's, you're alienating yourself and your fans. Yeah, there's so many levels. There's so many things to it. But it's like, I, in that same way, I wanted the first song we released to be cocaine, right? And just be completely juxtapositional to anything that's,

they've heard associated with my name. Yeah. And I think that's what I mean. Drop him in the face a little. Yeah, dude. But so Charlie said that he had, he had, I told him that it was inspired by Pinkerton and he goes, oh, like I was, I was just working with them. Da-da-da-da-da-da. Just working with Weezer.

And of course, I get home after that, like, I'm talking to my girlfriend. I'm so pissed because I can't meet with anybody else now. Right. I can't go and talk to other producers. I met the guy. You just like this guy. Yeah, exactly. That's how it works sometimes.

And I tried to meet one other guy and it just was like, no, like, damn. Yeah. Love at first sight. It's Charlie. Like, and so then we met together and I sent them all my stems for cocaine. And we met two afternoons over the course of a week. And we finished the song. And that's what's out now.

Yeah. Is that song pretty much done. And it's the closest to what we had of the original samples. or the original demos. But it was just like we just knew it was going to work. And we've worked together ever since. And now it's been crazy that we've sort of finished the sewer rat saga, right? To like be writing with more people now too and be like, oh, like, what would, and

in my head, I'm like, what would Charlie do in the situation? Like I'll show him stuff and be like, all right, like, how do we make this? How do we bring it into the sewer? How do we make this the rat? Right. And so it's cool. Minter Tigers, man. It sounds like.

real to me like it just that to me is like real true artist development it's just living the life living your life and developing as an artist is these creative relationships you build with people going on tour developing that's the artist development side of your real music and your real life is going to be what it develops into so I think that sounds but I knew I liked it so it sounds it sounds about right to me when I hear it I'm like yeah that sounds about right It sounds like someone who's finding their creative way. And like all of us, like we just have to like be real with how we feel.

And from such a young age, you've been dealing with other people's comments and opinions for so long. I think you're probably like a fucking karate master, probably whether you realize it or not. And at the same time, like super aware. And in some way, so I think there's.

Tai Chi, redirect the energy. Yeah, but like I think like what I realize this reinforces our conversation. Because I think like about myself, I think about my wife and my her sister, right, who I'm really close with. I think about our whole family. Like people are always going to have an opinion on someone in the family. I'm either Nicole's husband to someone.

the guy who just married her or she is the girl who married me to people that in my little universe it's like multiverse right yeah yeah and then but I'm also like the guy who married Lionel's daughter to some people yeah right and then my sister-in-law

or my brother-in-law who are like my brother and sister I've been with them for I've been 17 years I've known them since they were like little eight-year-old like talking about the age you're talking about like everybody has their experience and their relationship to the world as the world views them. Right? Like it's, I can't choose how the world views me. I cannot choose how that group of people look at me because I married Nicole and or that

my brother married his wife, right? Cameron, who's a fucking one of the biggest actions of all time. Like we can't control how people look at us based on our relationship with two people we love right our family and our family is not perfect our family we have shit we got it we all we're always working on right always all i can choose is how i see myself right all i can choose is like am i am i listening to the world and their opinion of me at any given moment depending on what's going on with any of these probably like 10 people i'm associated with that all are like bigger than me to be honest, like in their own ways.

Like if I look at like all these people around me, I'm like, they're like way bigger than me. So who am I? Right. And I wonder like like I realize as you say it, right? And as I think about my, I'm like more like listening to you talk and going in my head going like, how do I feel about how I, how like how do I feel about like my association to like my family and the way that I deal with it? I think that you have a very like solid, like grounded stance, which is, which I'm taking from. Thank you. Right.

So I go like, how do I feel about like how I'm associated to all these people, right, in my family and my life? And I feel like pretty solid, you know, but I do think that I'm a little insecure about what people think of me sometimes when I walk in a certain room, right? if I'm walking in with her to this fashion room, I don't get the fuck about my band. I don't give you the fuck. I'm not like Mr.

Fashion. I'm not like whatever in my mind anyways. Right. And like I wonder. That's what makes you fashion though. Well, I think so. It doesn't make you fashion.

But I'm analyzing it kind of going like, how do I feel about how people look at me? And like, I think that the key is my own relationship to myself and just being like, and I do also think that like, I always say, our weakness that we think is our weakness, that we think is the thing that makes us that we're shy about actually usually is our strength. Yeah, no, 100%.

I think that for me, I have to tow that line so much of like, how do I – because the last thing I ever want to do is in any way, use my family, use my name, you know, that for my success. But I also know that a part of that I can't help. Can't help it. I can't help it. I can't think about it. So I want to also, and I'm the first guy to be like, not judgmental, but like cognizant of like other people who do the same thing, right, or can't help it or choose to go even

further down that rabbit hole. So I try and be as like the perfect version of my situation as possible, knowing that there is none, right? And there is no way to treat this unique. association as you put it with the respect that it deserves to the people who work their fucking asses off for years to become the level have the level success they have while also respecting my drive and my what I now understand is a pretty similar purpose which is to make music and have it be received hopefully by people I think it is being received I love your

music. I really like it. Thank you, man. Buttering me up. I appreciate it. I think, yeah, I think that you're, like, it's, I'm not surprised. Yeah. But I was surprised. But I don't know why. But of course, that's because we just, we judge people, right? Like, we all make our judgments, our early, our early. It's not even a bad word when I say judgment. Like, like, we just kind of like perceive people. And we go, I want to. And I also think the natural side of, of, like, human nature is that's just what we all do. I do think that like in order to cut through that it has to be good. And I think that you made really good music. And I think like it's the merit of the music.

It's not anything else. I think like you just and that's why I would encourage you to keep focusing on like making records you care about. Yeah. And just making good music and like folk. And it's not about if. Cause you've already proven you can do it. You did the, you did the tour.

It's not an easy tour to go on by the way. Like like that fan base is much as loving as you say they are. They can be just as fucking bored and indifferent and not loving. If you're not genuine, if you're not yourself, too. It's like that's the thing is like they're going to be as accepting as they possibly can be as long as you're as much of you as you possibly can be. And trust me when I say coming out in a fucking rat costume as me, like that is coming out and like sweating balls for 45 minutes.

Yeah, that's fucking hot. In a fur suit. Yeah. That's me. It's like it's and that's putting it. on the line, putting it out there for people to accept or to appreciate it, at least in some way, and have it be an experiential moment, right, and not let it be. I've seen thousands, thousands and thousands and thousands of live shows in my life. And I want to make something

that's different to me. That's something that, like, if I saw when I was the whole point of this, the whole point of doing this music, the whole point going into it all and what we wanted to achieve was if I was 16 and I heard it and I saw it, my life would have been changed. I would have picked up music sooner than I did. Yeah. Right? And have the belief that that is a way in which I can therapeutically get out these emotions that I had to later in life that exploded out of me in a way that are on the record,

right? Yeah. And so I think that it's they accepted me on that tour and they continue to accept me. And like I could do the same bit on a different tour. and I hope to and I plan to. What's your dream tour? Dream tour? I don't know.

Or like what's your ideal? I want to keep opening. If you could pick your next tour, like who would it be with? There was a couple options. I mean, of like, like anybody ever? Like, I don't know. In the modern world, the people that are touring and that you know of, if there was a band you could go after and go tour open for,

like who would that band be? that would like fit me too i think like honestly like i feel like i'm like would never like stack up to them but like broken social scene like that sort of like vibe yeah that's super cool or like um like and that's like the musicianship i would never be able to in any way come close to but like that's that if we did that maybe i don't know we could bring out like because we sometimes have like a children's choir that we perform with right and we have like a classical violinist that we play with and like that's when it comes and there's like a lot of different players that we like to bring out and have with us

and give moments to. Like someone like that would be really special. Obviously, Weezer is the dream. Weezer's amazing. Weezer's incredible. Then, you know, then there's like the complicated, like weird, I mean like, there's the obvious radio heads, there's the, there was a talk of like,

Cold War Kids. Oh, cool. Next year. That'd be really cool. Please. Please. That would be awesome. I actually could see that going really well. That would be so sick, right? Bulldozer dude, like that sensitive kid. That was my song, bro. There's a lot. I think that what's

cool about what we're doing is that it could work with because we're so genuinely us on stage. It works in a lot of different places. We can work in a lot of different places and we can work with Hobo Johnson and we could also work with like, you know, whoever. Weezer with these guys with whoever else, broken, social scene because we give our all and I'm dead dropping in a rat costume, right? And like my, our violinist comes and sings the most beautiful song you've ever heard in the world. And like, it's, there's a lot to it that I think makes it unique and it's just about, what's great is that we're not trying to do anything that we've seen before and just trying to, we're, it's so natural and it's like, oh, like, we were in Atlanta and one of

of our guitarist is from Atlanta. And I was like, hey, like, you should sing that song that I love of yours tonight, please. Oh, if you're gonna do that, then Craig, our other guitar should also sing one of his songs. And then for the rest of the tour, we played their songs every night.

Because it worked so well, and it felt so genuine. And so then it became a thing of like, anytime someone else plays with us, now they sing one of their songs. Yeah. Right? And it's in, and that's like a part of our experiment that we have.

When are you going to drop those extra songs you were talking about? Hopefully soon. Cool. You should. I want to. I want to do it. Yeah. And that's,

don't overthink it. Yeah. I'm telling you, don't ever think it. They're already mixed. So just put them on the schedule, man. Yeah. I'm telling you,

you should drop them. That's the hard part about working with a label, but also I'm really lucky that I have such an incredible label. It's so. Yeah. That if I was like, if I was like, yo, let's do this. then they'd be like, okay, cool.

But we're also still promoting this EP. Right. And so. So you don't have any dates yet on the books for the next tour? I have a couple dates, just like sporadically with a couple different artists and a couple different things. We're waiting to hear back. It was looking like potentially Doe Plymen would want to have us.

Cool. You should do a show with Zeph. You know Zeph? Sounds super familiar. You check her out. dope. Yeah, hell yeah.

She's in your like indie pop. I'm a listener. I'm a listener. Rock. It's like in, to me it's like all indie alt music. It's like all alternative indie vibe-ish music. Like right.

So like it all works together. My friends in a band called Winecta Bowling League. So they're really good too. Yeah. Like I see you guys like there's a bunch of bands you probably don't even really like you don't even know yet that are like. all tour like and do well. Like that would all like compliment like it's the the music that you make.

I think there's like a world, a whole world of like artists that are touring and that would it would work really well together. I want to get more. I think it's like it's hard to break in unless you're like touring a lot. It's hard to break into the scene of like who's out there doing what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah.

It is. It's really hard to find a lot of. at your level wherever you are. You guys would, you do well with Carly Hansen too. She's super cool. There's a whole world of these like new all indie like artists that like make cool music and have like it's very in that like that like I don't know. It's like a cool music fan.

They like a lot of stuff but they're like your Sanjobo's crowd is super nice. Yeah. I feel like that it's a nice crowd. but it's all that indie alt stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like you guys are in that world for me. I love that. Thank you.

Yeah, I think that that's the thing is like, I just want to keep doing this. Like I love winning over someone else's audience. Yeah. And like convincing them to, to hear it. And I think it's,

oh, I've heard many people say that the live shows are, um, can be more enjoyable than listening to the music itself. Yeah, live is a thing, man. Of course. And especially if you're doing something experiential and you're doing something that's like you're putting your whole dick on that stage, then, of course, obviously it's different and it's more enjoyable,

but I love convincing people the first time seeing or hearing of me to want to come and hear and see me again somewhere else, right? I think that that's been... Painting fans, man. It's a thing. It's good. Yeah, dude. And like getting to talk to them. We used to love that, dude.

We used to love. That was some of my favorite years was opening and... We would open or we would put together. like a tour where we all shared like we all brought our own kind of our own fan bases but then we all discovered like I remember we were touring way back in the day we did one of our early tours was us in some 41 in vans the venues were like 150 cap rooms 200 cap rooms 300 if they were like the big show um and we were we did didn't know each other. We knew of each other, but like we didn't really know each other.

And that was the first time we met. And we were right, we were running around in these vans, playing these little rooms all over the country and sharing fans. And some nights, 100, like, it wasn't even sold out. Like some nights, like, there was like a hundred people there out of 150. The shows started getting bigger and bigger. Like on that tour, I remember, like, the labels were kind of working the song, were early going to radio or like, promoting. the records at colleges or whatever. And so it was before either one of us really had like a radio song or whatever. But like we would go to them all during the day and pass out flyers for whatever city we

were in. And we were always kind of getting into stuff because we were all just kind of fucking around. Yeah. They were 21 running around in a van 20, 21 running around in vans playing these like shitty bars with these shitty promoters. Some nights they were like wouldn't pay us all. Like it was always like something in those like little. Of course.

Early tours, man. But it was unforgettable. And then after that tour, we had us, this band Phoenix TX, Newfound Glory. Nice. Band called Lefty. I know I'm forgetting one. There was a couple. But there was like four bands at least on that bill.

And it was just like these little pop punk shows. And like the venues were slightly bigger. They'd be somewhere from like 500. a thousand cap rooms and we would jam in like some of the shows were selling out at that point because we had toured you know we had done some warp tour stuff we had done that some tour we had done our own touring and we were just like piecing together like these super group band bases yeah to like try to sell out a club some would some didn't and like gain fans that would come back and see us the next time we were in that city and it was like such a exciting time

because every show mattered and we just hadn't done that many shows we had maybe done 100 200 shows max and like I've grown up on both sides whether it's the big side or the little side right and but then once the life that my family lived got to the bigger side that's when I was like in high school right and so then I was like moshing and at neck deep concerts and like going to warp tour and getting my like face kicked in you know what I mean and like and so to now be in a situation, be in a position where I'm getting to do that in a way. Not obviously not, I'm not, I'm not like starting a pit at my shows, although as much as I want to.

People are probably getting into it. Oh, I want to, man. I want to. But, you know, it's like there's like a, there's something there of like, it's just so special to be in that position and like, and the opportunities that I'm getting are like, dude, if we're playing in October this like Made in Jersey festival right

and it's cool yeah it's so sick and like my friends the happy fits are headlining but then dude like I there's this band called Vanderbar I don't know you know dude I've seen them live several times and like and like moshed their shows

and so it's like it's for me to be able to be like have that opportunity to play on the same stage the same day as them is insane. And like that's like for me the oh my god like I made it right is like playing with Wunderbar and uh and so this experience is just like it's so unique and it's so profound to be able to to sort of live in the in between of the two worlds. Yeah I think it's cool kind of own the two is really really special and and um yeah man I just want to keep doing it.

It's cool man. You should. I hope to. Did you keep making records? That's the plan. Regardless as long as you like them, I can't, I will never stop making music. Yeah. That's for sure. I mean, they can always come out.

Yeah, exactly. Because you can always put them out. Yeah. And there's nothing. I think as long as you make records you like, it's going to be cool. Cool, man. Oh, great having you. Thank you so much for having me, man.

Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode of Artist Friendly. I hope you enjoyed today's show. If you really like Artist Friendly, you can like and Follow us anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, anywhere else you listen to the show. We really appreciate the support.

We'll see you next time.