Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - GAYLE

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

GRAMMY® Award-nominated, multi-platinum artist GAYLE joins Joel Madden on this week's episode of Artist Friendly. GAYLE's been having a big year. The rising pop star opened for Taylor Swift’s Eras tour in the spring — a massive accomplishment for any artist — and called the experience “some of the most exciting and terrifying moments of my life.” Now, she’s in the midst of completing her own headliner called the Scared But Trying tour. The run wraps Nov. 15 at Basement East in Nashville, and you can grab tickets here. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to 19-year-old Grammy Award nominated, multi-platinum certified singer-songwriter from Nashville, Tennessee. Gail, let's go. Gail. Hello. Hi. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited to talk to you. I'm very excited to talk to you. Where should we start? Oh gosh. Where are you from? Maryland. Maryland.

How was it like growing up in Maryland? I was from a very small place. So it was very far away from everything. So I think that was really nice because I was really disconnected from like generally from like pop culture, even though in the 90s, 80s and 90s it wasn't like today. But I think it definitely like put us in our own little world where we were. always imagining things and like i think that's how we became artists but maryland where did you grow up i grew up in dallas texas okay but i moved to nashon i was 12

so i like a lot of my childhood i associate with kind of being in texas and then becoming a person i kind of associate with like nashville why did you move into nashville i i just wanted to do music and i was like so so persistent about it i was just like one of those kids who started singing when they were seven and like I heard Aretha Franklin sing and I was just like I want to be Ruth Franklin when I grow up. It is just not I. I am not Aretha Franklin whatsoever. Well, you know, there can only be one.

There truly can only be one. And there can only be one you. That is also fair. She like, yeah, she's my icon and that's why I started singing and then my mom like, my mom played sports when she was younger and she was like she went to college for soccer. Okay. And she, like, was a female athlete in the 80s trying to do it, like, semi-professionally. And that wasn't necessarily a conventional career choice.

Yeah. And her parents really supported her in that. And so she kind of took the mentality that her parents took with her in soccer and went with that and music. And so she kind of, like, made her own, like, club sports was kind of, like, the way she was thinking about it when she was, like, taking me to vocal lessons or, like, I would play the most random gigs. Like I would play like rodeos and like sheep sellers convention. Yeah. I once auditioned. There's this thing called role,

rural American Idol. I drove like five hours somewhere. Rural? Yeah, I can't say rural, the rural jurors. Rural American Idol. Can you say rural jurors? Oh no.

I can't. Why am I having such a struggle? Rural jurors is a joke in 30 Rock, I believe. Really? Or maybe, I think it was a Tina Feja, but it's funny. Rural. The word rural is hard to say. Yeah,

it's a hard one. So your mom had a real idea of, I think what that is, is like a process for building success and progress. So that sounds pretty cool because I think a lot of parents look at the arts and they don't really understand like that there is actually a place for, to build a career in the arts. And that, you know, even if you start painting, but it leads you down a road where you have all these options as an artist, whether you become a painter or you become something in and around design.

Like I think that a lot of parents don't understand art as a job. Yeah. And it feels like your mom coming from sports was less focused on the result of like what you become, but more like let's build a process and a strategy. around like going after it. So at 12, would you say you were going for it? Yeah. So it was the mission you were on at that. Yeah, like I, at seven, I think I had career day or something at school recently.

So I was kind of thinking like, what do I want to do for the rest of my life? I was like, I take everything very literally and very seriously. Amazing. So do I. I saw Ruth of Franklin saying, you know, I was like, I want to be Ruthie Franklin when I grow up. And everything I've ever done has just been to do that since. And I would say I've been doing music professionally for the past like two years. Right.

Would that be when you got your record deal? I would say it's kind of when I started like touring. Right. And started like really like meeting people in the business, was able to get a deal, kind of got signed to an agency. Yeah. Working with like signed writers for the first time. Like I, that was like the first time I think I was like being set up with like published sessions and like shaking hands and like really meeting people.

I came up in the like writers round circuit in Nashville. Yeah. Like and I used to do I still, I mean, I still can't but I used to do like some of the like Broadway gigs. I wasn't even old enough to get in. I would have like a big X basically on my forehead to be able to play half of those venues. And I. And so a lot of my life and time. in Nashville was like going to writers rounds meeting random strangers and then writing songs with them

and then I would just perform the songs that I wrote with the people I met at writers rounds I'm more writers rounds and then meet more people and just kept and I kept writing with them kept performing it but I would say when I was like in the business of the music industry was kind of when I put out ABC because that was my first song yeah through a label and that was just like kind of me shooting in the dark like I was just kind of like I don't know what to do. So I'm just going to put this out and see what happens. I think that's what we all do. I don't know if any of us come into it with a real understanding of how the plant. We think we know at a young age how it's going to work. But then you get into it and you know, I mean, in two years at your age, you're 19. Yes.

So goddamn that is so young to have accomplished what you've accomplished. from you that's like you probably don't realize like you probably don't realize how accomplished you are most of us don't i think we don't walk around with like our resume all the time and look at it you're grammy nominated right yes i am yeah so confirm that that's not a lie that's not a lie okay um you have a multi platinum single i think it's like four times platinum the last time i checked Yes. So there you go. You've toured multiple tours.

I don't think I was on my first real tour until I was your age. And even that was young by standard of like what I've experienced over the last 25 years and seeing all the different ways artists make it. Some people don't get their first tour until they're in their mid-20s, late-20s. I mean, really it takes all types, right? Yeah. I mean, not just that you toured with Taylor or Swift. Taylor, Taitay.

Taylor, Tiswisle. Yeah, we're Swifties in our house. Yes. But the tours before that, so all the touring you've accomplished at the level you have, you've written songs for other people. So you're a songwriter and an artist. You likely produce. Do you produce things?

I do, yes. Yeah, so I suspected you were a producer too, so it doesn't seem like you'd be satisfied with just knowing how to do one. thing. All of that says to me, here's a person who is extremely driven to figure this thing out and refuses to quit because I know how I know how much rejections probably weaved in there in that experience, especially if you started at a young age. It hurts more when you're the younger you are, the more it hurts. Still hurts when you're older, but you get a little bit more. You just understand it more. You understand it more. It says,

to me that you have almost the kind of drive it would take like an athlete to make it at their sport, which kind of goes back to your mom. Are you guys close? Yes. She's like, she's a single mom. And so like, she's my rock. She's my world. She's everything. And one thing I really appreciate about her that I feel like I don't give her enough credit for is she knew that music was more than just singing on stage. And I feel like for her to see that and to seek that and to try her best to understand that for her kid and to try and teach me everything that she could possibly learn about the music industry, I really appreciate that insight that she had because I even like with Taylor Swift, like she saw Taylor Swift on stage and she was like, this is more than her just singing pretty. It's what she's saying and it's like what she's singing about. And it's the way she's presenting herself on stage. It's the way she's connecting with the audience.

That is the important part of music. And then she kind of was like, I will work as hard as you work. So she kept doing things for me to kind of like casually, consistently prove that I wanted to do music. Like my first guitar was like a toy guitar. It was like 25 bucks. And until I learned how to play it, she bought me a real guitar. And then after I learned how to write songs, I was writing songs for a year. and then she took me to Nashville to write a song, you know.

And not a lot of parents would do that. Not a lot of parents would also just have like the freedom or time to do it. She worked from home and, you know, and she really like believed in me, which not a lot of kids get to have their parents believe in them so deeply. Take them seriously. She really did take me seriously. And I also put on a really big responsibility on myself. Like after we moved to Nashville, like I was like, well,

time to make it. I was like, yo. Moving our life here. Like I live or die. Like I got to make it. Like I felt this responsibility like for my family. I was like we moved to Nashville for this shit. Like I got to do it.

We got to fucking do it. Like there's no other choice. Like I have to do it. Don't you feel like though that pressure is what we need? It's like do or die? I think a little bit. I don't think there's sometimes like I try my best to not always go into this like I need to have the scarce mentality to like keep my work ethic. Like I like to believe I can be like happy and still like work hard.

Yeah. I think for me like I have this drive to kind of have the freedom to do whatever I want in my life. And that's like the biggest thing I always go to is like in music I just want to do. whatever I want to do in life, in my life and for my family and everything. And so that's also the like main motivator that I always go to is that I'm really like working for freedom in, in my job and in my life and trying to hopefully give freedom to other people in my family as well. But yeah, I do think it is a big, especially when you're younger and you haven't like

had any true success. I do think that's a really big motivator for me and for, and for a lot of people. I think it's incredibly special what you just told me and what you, you know, I know it's not the sum of your story in your relationship with your mom, but it's a great description of the top line of it is she had her own experience, right? Was obviously driven. Obviously, you have to be to make it at any level of sports past, you know, being a kid, playing in high school and then going beyond that and going beyond that and going for after a career in sports, you have to be really disciplined and really driven as well as talented.

But then to take all the information that you've gained, which is I think actually like a little bit how I try to parent my kids is take all the information you've gained from your own personal successes and failures and then apply that. And I'm going to be all over the place here because you have my brain going. Because this is the first time I've ever actually talked to anyone on this show that is coming into music that it feels like they had a support system that was as engaged as they were in the process with them. And then actually applying like strategies for success. And for people listening, I always try to underscore things that I think they can use in their own life, right, whether they're a parent or they're building their own dream of whatever kind

that could be. And in order to have success, we do have to have a strategy. We have to be. We have to be conscious of our strategy as much as we can be. Some people are just so, they have such good instincts. They, they tornado through and they have success. But if you could, but if you could track it and put it on paper, we could identify the things they did to have success. And then we could replicate those things across a bunch of other people. That's what I believe. Yeah. So I believe that success is part talent, part work, ethic, and effort, and then strategy. How are we going to do this? And I think that when you tell me the relationship that you had your mom. It's such a blessing when you think about this person lived their whole life,

had you, and then started applying information they had done all the research and development that they could in their own category. And then they brought it over here to your category and your dream. And they started trying to implement those things. It's not all perfect, right? I know there's lots of other, I'm sure there's tons of stories you have of things that didn't work and all that. But in general, it feels like the relationship you guys had was a foundational part of you sitting here as a Grammy-nominated multi-platinum, singer-songwriter,

touring 19-year-old. When you say it like that, it's so crazy. It's crazy because think about this, you've accomplished in a few years of your adolescent young life, right? You're certainly an adult now, but if you summed up even the last five years, just call it five. You've accomplished what takes other people 15, sometimes 20, sometimes 10. Easily could be 10 to 20 years of work that you've accomplished in five.

If we trust our experience and our instincts and what got us here, we can continue to make decisions in line with our success. And you have just more awareness to everything. And when I look back at my life and my career, I really think about when love, And when you're talking about, like when luck meets opportunity meets preparedness, you know, like you're always going to be, you know, if you're trying to do the thing, like you're going to be prepared. You know, you're always going to practice. You're going to be on top of your shit.

If you're trying. And then there's times you're going to be lucky. But you have to be good or even great to be able to meet that luck and to meet that opportunity. And you have to be prepared for that as well. And that combination is what I believe bring success. Absolutely. And we could call luck a lot of things. So many things.

There's so many things that can be. Right. We could perceive something as luck. I believe that I always say the harder, I tell my kids, the harder you work, the luck here you get. But it's when hard work and preparation meet opportunity, that's luck, right? It feels like we stepped into a pile of shit and we're like, whoa, how did I get this? But no, no, we had to go down the road.

Had we not gone down the road, someone else, there's a bunch of people running the race with us. We're all in a pack of people. You know, music isn't a competition. It's more of like we're all on this marathon together. Yeah. It's an endless marathon because at some point, some people are like, I'm out. Yeah. You can stop whenever you want.

And you can take a break and you can come back in 10 years and get back into the marathon. It's the beautiful thing about art. But if you don't go down the road yourself and meet those opportunities, you'll never be lucky. And entitlement is believing that I can. sit here and then I should be handed things versus I'm going to get up every day and go look for my opportunities and then assess the ones I think I can really do well and try. People who are inspired and driven get up every day and go forward. And my advice always when I sit with, like, say, a young person who's just starting out, they're in the first five years of their

career and they're like, what should I do? And I'm like exactly what you're doing. Get up every day and go forward and talk to anyone you can talk to and look for any opportunity and then have integrity take that opportunity do your best own your shit be responsible and those opportunities start to turn into things that's the other thing is results aren't something we can actually judge at face value because we don't know the implications long term of something we're doing right now you could be writing a song right now that lays on the floor for 10 years and someone you play a demo for someone and they're like, I love that song. I want to cut it and it could be the biggest song in your career. Right. So we don't know the results. We can't judge the results. We have to leave those up to time. Yeah. But it is drive. I feel like that's also like I heard this phrase and I really, it really spoke to me a little bit because it was like you don't have to be crazy to like be in music, but you have to be crazy to stay in music. And that was. You know, it was. You don't have to be crazy to stay in music. And that was. You know, something that I kind of thought was interesting. Feels crazy.

Because there's something in you to like stay in music takes a very particular type of person because you're not always going to get the validation that you want. You're not always going to be happy with everything you do. You're not always going to be satisfied and you can stop whenever you want. And within reason, you can kind of do the things that you want. You just have to be able to work for it and like see the future and see your goals. You know, and I think that's also the beautiful thing about music. is another phrase I always think of is you only are as good as you are the day you are.

You know, like you wake up and not as good as you're going to be. You know, so you have to push yourself every single day to be the best you're going to be because that in that moment, that will just be the best you're going to be. Yeah. So you really have to push yourself every single day because you have to hit a new standard every single day. And it's beautiful and the worst thing ever for perfectionists. And for not only perfectionists, but I know for me, I got a new. to music because I felt like I didn't fit in anywhere. And I had a really low self-esteem and I was

looking for self-worth. I wanted people to class. I mean, you know, literally wanted people to like me. Yeah. I realized music wasn't the answer. It was a great. It led me to music and music became a healing process, a healing journey. I had to go work on myself and take responsibility for my, you know it didn't matter that the injuries that happened to me and the trauma that happened to me I didn't choose it but it was mine and at some point in life we have to to take responsibility for that and we have to go and work on ourselves and heal do you go to therapy I love therapy how long have you been going to therapy for uh that's a great question um I've been going to therapy now for about about I got started late in my opinion in my early 30s so I've been going for about 12 years

Wow. That's amazing. Religiously. What made you like sit and kind of realize like, okay, it's time for me to go to therapy? Honestly, my wife. Iconic. Yeah. She's iconic. But she's such a, she's such a special person.

And the world sees this one side of her that's gorgeous. It's beautiful. She's gorgeous. Yeah. And she's funny and she's all these things that like, that really are her. but the sweet, thoughtful, smart woman and strong woman that she is who's been through a lot. People say, how have you been together for 17 years or married for 13 years or whatever? And I'm always like, I don't know.

I mean, she's amazing and I just feel lucky. We like each other. But it's really her ability to, she's the least judgmental person I've ever met. So if you came to her with the most shocking problem, you nothing shocks her she's just like i i think you should do this or i think you need to go and anyways we were at a point where she was like i think you really need to go and work on the old stuff you haven't dealt with she's like you really need to go and uh you know i was depressed and didn't know it anxious and didn't know it i had i had zero understanding of my emotional life and i was

dealing with anxiety depression all those things and i didn't really know it And I was acting it out in my music, which was, I think, the ship that carried me to that point. So it was like a different kind of therapy. At that point, probably 12 or 13 years of artistic therapy. But I had never really thought, oh, I need to go and like talk to someone. Our band, Good Charlotte, we had a really unique relationship with those things, mental health, depression, anxiety. A lot of people that listened to our music got a lot out of it. And I didn't realize it was just me and them.

I was writing songs not knowing I was just a stream of consciousness confessing all the stuff. Yeah. And they were, so the audience, the fans of Good Charlotte, we had a very tight relationship because it felt like that. It felt like we were sharing our deepest traumas with each other, you know? And but I didn't realize like I was completely undeveloped emotionally. I had a lot of work to do. And then I went in and I started working on it.

on it and I wouldn't say I got addicted to it, but I came, I became dependent on that process. And now today, I would say I've worked a ton of stuff out. That's likely why I'm still married and I can be super present. Yeah. But I also really enjoy analyzing and processing and trying to understand, like, why do I feel this way? Yeah. Have you stayed with the same therapist or have you like changed therapists? I started with one or two different. And, I ended up with a guy who I've been with now for 10 years. Oh, my God, amazing. And he's amazing.

He changed my life. Yeah, I go to, I go to therapy. I'm going to therapy for like about a year. Amazing. Now my therapist had a baby. Okay. And she, like, decided to like her baby or whatever. So she disappeared for like a few months or whatever, but she came back.

Did you fill in the gap with anyone else? I didn't actually. You know, I was actually on Torth Pink when I was in Europe. And so I just, like, wrote in my journal and was just kind of like, you know what? like to the gods please. Right, you picked up enough tools to like keep it going while you figure out when you can. Yeah, for me, I've realized in my life, I've really needed help finding peace and my comfort. And I think I, when I feel things, I always, in my life, I've really noticed that I need to have a reason for everything.

And so for my emotions, there needs to be a reason for everything. And I just started feeling resentment in my life. And I didn't particularly know where it came from. So I started going to therapy to kind of like help me understand my emotions better. And also I was just dealing with a lot of internet bullshit. And I was like, I just want to talk to somebody about this and talk about how it's affecting me. As a real person, the thing that no one talks about is now we live in a culture of immediate feedback loops that we didn't ask for. But they're there.

And you can't get away from it. You can say, oh, I'm just not going to look. No, if people are talking bad about you or making fun of you, let's call it what it is. It's not even an opinion on your music. They're fucking being mean and they're making fun of you, right? Like you have to take that whether you like it or not. And that really tests your self-esteem and your self-worth and yourself love

and all the things that I think everyone needs to be happy. I think we need enough self-esteem and our feeling of self. Like we have to feel like we matter and that we're special. And I believe like every single person on the planet deserves to have their own unique relationship with themselves, to love themselves, to feel special, to feel like one of one. And we don't live in a world that really supports that all the time. In fact, if you step out and say, I'm one of one, I'm special. Like a loser.

Most of you are going to go, fuck off, dude, you're such a loser. So a lot of people would roll their eyes when they hear me say that, but that's how I feel. And I think if we can't love ourselves, we can't love anyone else. But at the end of the day, when you go online to do anything to interact with the world and all these different places where you have to, you're going to be met. If you're an artist and you're making art and you're putting things into the world, you're putting yourself out there. you are going to be met.

Someone's going to make fun of you. Yep. It's going to happen. Someone's going to hate you. And they've now given you that. You didn't ask for it, but they gave it to you. And now you have to decide, what do I do with this? I didn't ask for this thing.

And that's where we have to figure out how we deal with that. I think something that I also notice that I don't always feel like artists talk about, is that the bigger you get, the worse it gets. Which I think some people think it's the opposite. No. which was something that I really, really had to come to peace with and to terms with is like, the more successful you are and the bigger you get, the ruder people are going to be in the meaner it's going to be and the harsher it's all going to feel because like, one, people are

just going to be jealous. They're not going to understand it and they're going to want to take it away from you. So when I'm like wanting like the simplest way I can explain it is like if I want a video to just like do well, like I post a TikTok and I'm like, I hope this video gets a million views. Like if it gets like, you know, like if it gets like 20,000 views, people are pretty nice. Like, I'll just say maybe there's one comment telling me to brush my teeth or something. Yeah. If it gets a million views, you know, like the meaner and the rooter, I know it.

I know a video is getting more views when the comments start to get ruder, when it starts to get harsher, when people start being cruel. And that was something I had to come to terms with when I'm wanting myself to like be more successful. I'm opening myself up also to more negativity and more positivity at the same time. But that was something like when I was so blessed to have the Taylor Tour and the Grammy nom, I believe that kind of came out within two months of each other. I should have been on top of the world and on top of the moon. But I couldn't even like go on Twitter without like crying, you know, for a little bit. For a very particular, for a specific moment of time that was like hard for my dreams to be coming true.

but then like people are tearing me down for it. Personal growth is all about us discovering what our potential is and owning it and taking it to the limit as far as we can. And that is something that you can grow. You can grow your capabilities. You can grow your capacity. And you're at 19. I'm telling you right now from my experience, you have a high capacity and a high, a lot

of capabilities already at a young age. So that part, I'm like, that way outweighs the bullshit that comes with it. Everybody else's opinion. And another thing I go back to is like, obviously if I, with music, like, I still get to like live my life. Like I'm fine. Yeah. Like, oh, one 12 year old in their basement gets, like calls me a loser.

It's like you're still like in your house. You have somewhere to sleep. You have food to eat. Like you are fine. because sometimes I get in this mentality like, it's like you still can live your life, you know, like music feels like everything and it is everything to me, but it's like, you know, it is everything, but it doesn't always have to be everything at the same time. There can be more to you, the real person that's living inside of the career.

Music, because sometimes I felt like if music was gone, then I'm just gone. And it's like, you're a little dramatic. Okay. Well, we're artists. Yeah, I know. I'm like, we're dramatic. No music. There's no me.

And I mean, yeah, like without music, like music has saved my life in so many ways. Me too. I don't even, I can't even like imagine where I would be without music. I can't even like, I don't even know where I would be. Also, are you wearing like the little wristband thing that tells you like you're like like everything? You know it. Oh my God. It's a whoop.

Are you like my manager has one of, a few of my friends have been having them. Checks your steps. Your heart. Your heart rate. strain, what's your stress is just going to be all peaking during this whole interview. Stress. Yeah. Well, also stress is when you're focused, you're higher, there's a higher stress. It's like, almost like hunting. Oh, I'm looking at my manager. She's stressed out all the time. I'm so sorry. She's focused. I look at it and I feel so super focused. I'm like,

I'm so sorry. Yeah, whenever you're focused, your stress is up. And when you're, when you're, when you're focused on, on, so likely your stress levels are high when you're in a really focused conversation. but also like one thing that I like it measures is strain which is actually like the same effort it takes when you're doing cardio or working out you exert that effort in other places in the day and as long as you hit a certain level of strain during the day your body got enough physical exercise so I always kind of struggled with working out so I had a weird relationship with sports and physicality because I wasn't a very like physically fit it, whatever that is, a kid.

And so I found that my relationship with working out was not necessarily healthy. I either went all out and got super, but it was also kind of aggressive, like it was like fighting and boxing and stuff, which also makes me feel bad inside for some reason. Yeah. It's not a good, me and MMA and boxing and training was my brother did it and like he had a great experience with it. it like really fucked with my emotional like you're such an emotionally aware human it's so cool you talk about yourself in your brain though like it's so well i learned it ever met a man is

like emotionally aware as you this is such a i have conversation thank you well i learned it because i wasn't i was the opposite and i was going through life completely confused yeah and i was in the middle of a career. So like the experience I had in my career was incredible in a lot of ways, but also terrible in other ways. And I think I met my wife at the right time. And Nicole was like, whoa, you're like a tornado. And she's like, I think you need to like go talk to someone and just see. And that's when I actually started to go in and actually process. All my emotional processing happened in songs, which is amazing for the art. Definitely. But like I think you have to live in your real life every day. I think that's more important. I wouldn't trade my real life for that life ever. I think people would say, oh, that's easy to say you had it. Yes. But I'm also trying to tell you your real life is more important than that as well. And that what you think you want, you actually, I don't know if you want it or not. But we have to make, we have to find a way to integrate all the parts of our life. So they work together.

so that we can be happy in all of them. Yep. And anyways, I found with working out, fighting when I was training, and I, and I certainly, like, there are other kinds of martial arts that I do like now, but, like, fighting really disturbed a part of me that made me feel really, like, angry and bad. And it didn't affect my brother the same way, and we're twins, so that's weird. So then I stopped working out, and I had this whole roller coaster with, like, my own physical, you know, physicality.

Yeah. it measures like your strain every day and that's kind of what I watch. So if I get home and I'm only at 12 and I need to be at 18, I'll just jump rope for like five minutes, six minutes. Oh, cool. See where it got me. If it gets me all the way there, it just keeps me moving in ways that are like healthy without having to like go every day and like work with like a trainer who's yelling at me.

And I don't do good there. I still, I'll go to the gym like once, twice a month. Yeah. I just started working out because like I was opening up for pink in Europe and I was out of breath within like 10, 15 minutes. And I was like, guys, like I'm opening up for pink. Like I can't be sitting here like, hey guys. Hitting those notes.

Hey, like, she's about to be fucking upside down doing a plank doing a backflip. And I'm like, I can't be like, welcome up pink to the to the stage. Like I was like, I can't be doing that. So I started hiking. Oh, that's sick. And that's like really, I started hiking and like listening to like podcasts and albums. And anytime I'm listening to someone's album or I want to listen to something, I'll do it on my hike. And it's like just enough physical effort that I'm out of breath, half the hike because it is a good hike.

But like I don't feel like I can't do it and I don't feel like a failure because that's the thing. It was like me and like if I'm at the gym and someone's yelling at me one more rep, I'll be like, fuck you. I'm done. I'm out of. And I'll leave. I'm leaving. I just am too sensitive for someone to like tell me, I don't know what it is. Coaches, maybe it was mean coaches or something.

I just have a real chip on my shoulder with coaches. Pretty bullied when you're younger. Yeah. Maybe that could be it. Yeah. A little bit. Absolutely is. I got, I was homeschooled, so the bullying, bullying stopped for me.

But elementary school is a rough time. It's tough. It's tough time. Tough time. And then my brother actually is like the complete opposite of me in all the funniest ways ever like he has sensory processing disorder okay and I say will you explain that to me a little bit so basically like he the simplest way to put it is he just processes senses like a little bit different and it's kind of different for every person that has it in different sense senses can kind of like

overwhelm somebody it can cause them to be like mute at times just because like for him he basically processes things at times like somebody can like be attacking him so like if I I liked your shirt and I was like, hey, I really like, like this shirt's really cool. He would take me, like, grabbing his shirt as me trying to, like, hit him or something. Or sometimes if there's really loud noises, like, it just, like, oversimulates him and he just needs to leave. And it used to be worse when he was younger. So I obviously did what any little sister do. And I started playing drums at, like, nine.

And I'd be like, hey! And he actually couldn't go to concerts for, like, a really long time. And now he can. You wouldn't even, like, notice. but we like he hates like loud noises right any music like anything loud he would read like he um is just such a smart kid he has like a semi like photographic memory and he would read he was like nine reading like a thousand page books a day and i had dyslexia and i just could not read like i could not read to save my life and it like but then i would write everything down my brother

had dysgraphia so he couldn't really like write anything down like anything like i excelled in in any way, he wasn't the opposite in. But anything, he excelled in, like, I was the complete opposite in. Isn't it interesting, though, that, like, when nature gives us a, say, a weakness or a deficient part of us that doesn't have, like, maybe what other people have, it also gives us some strength. So, Anna Mena.

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analytical person It's really interesting He's like He is going to be a lawyer He's going

to Alabama He's He's so proud of him He is a full scholarship to Alabama That's awesome

He's an economics and finance major with a minor in like Excel spreadsheets or whatever the fuck that bullshit is I don't fucking know and then he's yeah he's studying to be a lawyer and he started going to college at like 17 during what a great resource in your support system like my mom like she's the fucking best like she like she can't also like she's so proud of us like she can't take it like yeah like when she saw me open up for Taylor like I think she had a heart attack like Which show did she come to? She went to the first show in the whole, so one with the tour, just the luckiest, happiest thing in the whole entire world.

Like I just felt like I was just so lucky with that tour in general, but we had the first show on the whole entire tour. And so it was in Arizona and it was the State Farm Stadium. And so I had my mom and my brother come out. And so I've been writing songs with my best friend since I was 12 and she was 15. We moved to Nashville. What's her name? time her name's Sarah Davis I wrote ABC with her you're just horny like a lot of my like some of my most popular songs like I've written with her like she's just my best friend and she

grew up across the street from the stadium and so I used to visit her and her family for Christmas and we'd ride bikes around the stadium and we'd be like one day we're gonna have one of our songs like play at the stadium and people are going to sing along like they she would always have me up because she's a writer and she wasn't really an artist so she was like one day like you're gonna play that stadium and we it was kind of like this joke like oh one day and then the first show with taylor was playing that stadium and so my mom came and my brother came in my best friend and her family was there and we literally like basically like walked back from the stadium after the show was done and there's this that's awesome there's this

famous video in my family now where like my best friend's videotaping my mom and she's crying during a bc which is just such a funny song to cry too like you're just like fuck you like she's just like singing along like a proud mom like she can't take it my brother watching it dead face does not give a fuck like he's literally like and then he's just like cool and my my favorite thing is i didn't tell my brother that i was opening up for her because like i didn't tell anybody that was like the biggest secret i've ever kept in my whole entire life and there wasn't that much of a turnaround like it wasn't like that long that i kept it a secret how long did you know before the first show i can't even like, oh gosh, it was, it was probably about like a month, month and a half.

Okay. It was a pretty quick turnaround. It was pretty, it was shocking. Like the whole experience like Taylor saw me play. Wow. And then where did she see you play? So we played it. So I grew up in Nashville and she's from the Nashville scene and they're throwing the NSAI

Awards, which stands for Nashville Songwriters Association International. And I was performing and she was getting honored as writer slash artists of the decade. And she saw me play and she was backstage. and I walked off stage, like I went backstage and she was there and she literally was just like, what are you doing next year? And I was like, oh, like I don't know what I'm doing next year. Like I'm trying to figure it out because it was like October, kind of around this time last year. And I was like, I don't really like know what I'm like doing, but I'm trying to figure it out right now.

And she's like, oh my God, do you tour? And I was like, yes, ma'am. Like, yes, ma'am, I tour. And she was like, well, do you open up for people? And I was like, I open up for people. I open up for people who ask me to open up for them. She was like, okay, I'll call you. And I was like, oh my God.

So I didn't tell my brother like anything. And he's in a frat. And he goes to Alabama. So like it's the most like Greek life, whatever. And literally sorority girls, I think woke him up that morning. They're like banging on his door. And they're like, so you're a little sister. And he was like, no.

What? And then he saw, he called me. And he literally was like, women are insane. And I was like, what? And he was like, nobody's left me the fuck alone today. And I was like, sorry. But he was like, hey, hey, so like, he was trying to get girls like into the show. Yeah, of course.

So like, hey, so like, do you do. But like. He's the plug now. Yeah, you got anybody like, hey. Got any extra spots on the guest list? Yeah. So like first date. So I need 20 spots.

It's on the guest list. Yes, like all of a sudden I invite a whole sorority. I hope you don't mind. That's awesome. And stressful in the moment. Managing your guest list can be stressful. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Yeah. I also like, I mean, I knew that tour was going to be crazy. Yeah. I also like, I didn't know anything. Like I didn't know it was going to be the Eres tour. So when I like saw the poster, I didn't know the direct support. I didn't know any of the other first of three. So like I saw the poster and it was like first day you get so.

enough for Paramore and Taylor Swift. And I was like, that's ridiculous. And Taylor is awesome. She's like the best fucking person. She is a really good person. She's really, God, she, it makes a lot of sense to me when I see her doing well. I remember meeting her back in the day and being struck by how classy she is. Like when people kind of talk about like, you've mentioned a couple times, like just talking to

everybody being as nice to everybody as you can and like just meeting as many people as you can that's exactly what she did and she can really show for it you know a lot of people in this industry have like met her and have beautiful things to say about her because she's such a nice person anywhere you go but she's smart she's talented she's driven and unfortunately like i'm going back to the music industry if you're that and a woman you're going to be met with people pushing back on that because you're supposed to be whatever you're supposed to be. Yeah. You're not supposed to be ambitious, driven.

And I say that broadly. I know that there are tons of smart, driven, focused women. It's being changed by you women, right? So, I mean, we always have to challenge everything, right? But she is one of a kind. Especially like. And so is Haley from Paramount. Oh, my.

Similar personality. First of all. Very smart. Very, very kind, really focused, I mean, insanely talented. But the same kind of person where you go, like, she's a winner. I've never been more scared. I don't think ever before in my life when it's like you have to sing before Haley Williams. Yes, tall order.

Yo. What a cool. What a cool. It was the why I'm never going to let that down. I mean like I mean in that night at your age I think it's just it goes it goes to say though that like you're certainly at least in a place where you were trying to get to on your way to another place you're trying to get to right but it is kind of confirmation that you're on the right path not the wrong one. It's interesting for me because like yeah it definitely like yesterday I played a headlining show and it really was like it was the most people I've ever gotten to like. show up at one of my shows before. And I really had me think like, wow, like this is, I was kind of like, this is kind of working a little bit.

Well, this is what I do. Weird. Like, this is like, wow, like I'm, I'm like doing music. Like, I'm not going to college. Like I'm, like, I'm just like doing music. Like, wow, this is the thing I've been wanting to do my whole entire life. But I also still don't think I'm good, which I think is interesting. You know, like I can feel like I'm on the right path.

to some extent and like feel like I'm like doing music, then I can still think I suck. Like I can like like like I feel the same way. I don't. I truly believe Taylor wouldn't just let somebody that she thinks sucks on her tour. No way. I don't think she would do that. No. But I can still be on that tour and think I suck at the same time, you know.

There's a healthy part of us that thinks we suck. Yes. If we manage it, you know, I think because I still feel that way. But I think every artist feels that way because we want to keep creating relevant art. You know, it's definitely confirmation. I think someone like Haley, Taylor, they take themselves seriously as they should and they care about their music, their brand, their show. And they wouldn't thoughtlessly put anyone on that stage. I think they think every detail through because I think great artists think all the details through.

And it's not done until they feel like it's done. And I don't think they're just throwing people out there. And with Taylor, too, like something I also think about is to be where she is in her career. And I was 18 at the time. And so to see this like 18 year old sing for three minutes. And within those three minutes, decide to put her on your stadium tour. That is so kind. Because I was not like slated to play stadiums. Like I like last year or like literally when I just turned 17, I. just put on ABC.

I was on tour with this band, Winneka Bowling League, like Matthew Coma was like the lead singer. Matt plays with... Oh, yo, yeah. Dude, I was on tour with Matthew Coma. He's one of my best friends. That, first of all, that tour,

I thought I was so fucking cool being on that tour. Yeah. Oh my God. I didn't know you toured with them. He was my first tour ever. When I was 17, he offered me his tour. and my manager and I were in a van together and my manager drove me everywhere

and I was 17 and my mom signed over like temporary custody to my manager so like we had this big joke that she could legally tell me to go to bed. And like yeah I opened up for Weneca and I had a little keyboard and I had tracks and it was me and my guitar and we had this sandwich board with my name on it.

Yeah. And on that tour, tour is when ABC, like, started, like, I started that tour and I would say ABC, I believe, had around 5 million streams. And I ended that tour. The tour is about a month long and it had 105 million streams. That's crazy. And I had no, like, I remember, like, when it hits 69 million streams, I, like, walked around.

I was like, my song had 69 million streams. Like, I thought, but somebody was like, wait, how long is it been out? I was like, oh, it's been out for like five months. They're like, yeah, yeah, but like, what did that, what streams did it have like three weeks ago? And I was like, oh, it's like, I don't know. It was probably at like 10 million or something. And they're like, you're about to have the craziest fucking year of your life. And I was like, I don't know.

Like, they're like, no. Like, I've gone on tour with bands where their biggest song has like 70 million streams and they can fill out like big theaters. Yeah. That's a big. It's a big deal. You are about to have the craziest year of your life. And I just like did not. understand and like I was terrified opening up for Matthew and that was like clubs that's crazy

and within less than a year I booked the Taylor tour that's crazy so I was like and then about two months later I kind of ripped Weneca's tour I literally like did the tour that they did I was able to headline oh great three or four months later and I kind of played the same menu that's the point that's the point of touring is you go out with the band and you share fans and then you go and do hopefully the same venues you did opening. I was so jealous of Matthew. He was a hit songwriter and I was like, I just, I wanted to be a hit songwriter more than anything in my whole entire.

He's so talented. He's such a good songwriter and all I wanted was to be like, I was too nervous to like ask him to write with me. I was, I could barely talk to him. Oh my God, he's. I could barely. Obviously you know he's like, you could write with him now. I, we're gonna write for my album. Okay, because he, I think personally of all the years I've worked with songwriters,

producers and I met Matt when he was 16 in his band when he was 16 he was in a band they got signed and we were working with him writing songs we became friends and to this day and we just wrote a few months ago together he's going to work on some new good charlotte music with us and um I think he's one of the most complete and talented producer songwriters I've ever met because he can write a song he can record the song he can play anything he's just a freak he's so good he's written big hits he's but he's also humble you don't know he's written big hits most of the time super smart you can tell in his lyricism like yeah he's too smart like oh my god i like i like i saw him open up for sasha sloan and then when i opened up for him i was like i was like my first tour ever and like yeah once i

started touring with him. I just never stopped touring. I never stopped. But that led you, so it's doing those shows and then playing that and playing that and you run into Taylor and you've run into 20 other people that you don't even know it mattered, but you will find out later. Like that's how it works. It's you're just, you're going out there, you're doing the thing. And then these opportunities come. And because you're willing to go forward and meet them, you continue to perpetuate this positive abundance in your life of opportunity versus like, you know, the opposite of that, which is people who don't trust opportunity. And in my life and my career, I will never forget Matthew, like, letting me open up for him.

That's awesome. He kind of had no reason. I don't, I didn't help him sell one ticket. Like, I had no ticket history. I had never toured before. Yeah, but I'll say this, though, because I, know Matt really well. He doesn't give a fuck. He's an instinct guy. So he just sees something that he likes and he goes, I like that. I fuck with that. And it really meant a lot, especially 17.

He's got good instincts. And it was post COVID too. So I was just like, am I ever going to tour? Like, I don't know. Like I, an ABC took about probably I would say solid four or five months before it did anything. So there's also and I wrote ABC and put it out a year later after I wrote it. So there's a year and a half where this song existed in my life and like was just on my phone that's just confirmation though to me because i've always thought matt was a was a great i mean he's written big hits and he calls things all the time he's like hey check that out they're going to be big and you'll be like okay and then sure enough that band's big or that song's big so he's got great instincts and it's not for any other reason than he's a music music fan he's just a music god he i just and he'll see something and he'll be like

Oh yeah, I like that. Yeah. You should play with us. He's not thinking ticket sales. He's not thinking. That's just not how his brain organizes. I think he's literally just a true artist, musician, producer. He's doing things that he likes.

And that's also why he's not in that like, I'm going to write another hit song race. Even though he's got all the capable. If he wanted to be in that carousel of with all those kind of career hit songwriter type people, it is kind of a character in our business. He could be running that race. It's just not him. He's an artist. He's making stuff.

He's like an art maker. Like, oh my gosh, yes. I have such a high respect for him. That's dope. He was backstage at one of the last Taylor show. I saw him and I didn't see him since I last opened up for him. And I saw him backstage at one of the Taylor shows. And I almost started crying because I was like, Matthew.

Like, I haven't seen you since I opened up for you. like a year and a half ago almost about to be two years ago now and like I'm a completely different person than I was on that tour like I just have had so much life experience

I hadn't even like left the US when I went on that tour I hadn't been to anywhere anywhere is my first time going to like Idaho my first time ever was on with Winneca I know the first time I ever went to Colorado

was because of Winnega Salt Lake City Utah was because I literally I have this tattoo because it was the pulp tour. And it was like one of my first tattoos was because of Matthew Coma letting me on his Pulp Tour. Like that's so cool.

Yeah, it was a really monumental thing for like me and touring and like in my career was like going on tour with him. That's that's a great tour. So what's what's the tour now? So I'm on the Scarebet Trying Tour, which is my own tour. Basically like, yeah. So I was kind of going to put out an album. this year was kind of like my goal and then Taylor and Pink came into my life and I never played stadiums before and I've never made an album and I'm a perfectionist and I try and do everything

the best that I possibly can because I know I can't do things perfectly so like my coping mechanism for it is just like doing everything that I possibly can and knowing that and I felt like I couldn't like be the best that I could be at making an album for the first time and playing stadiums for the first time. So I personally made the decision to kind of just like put out singles that I don't think are going to go on the album. I'm writing for the album like next year late this year. Just kind of seeing what's going to happen with that. But I just felt like I couldn't be great at both. And so I put out singles and went to rehearsals and toured for the beginning half this year. And when it came to putting a headlining show post-pandemic and everything touring is really hard, especially as a new

artist building your hard ticket, especially going on. two of some of the biggest tours in the world. Like it's super intimidating putting up your club tour being like, what if nobody comes? Like what if I'm on literally one of the biggest tours in the world? And then like I can't even sell tickets to like my own show. Like I'm setting myself up for embarrassment. And I think due to virality of things like there's some people who just like knock

everything out of the park. And it's like I'm in a build and a career. And I try my best to tour like a rock act. And when it comes to that, you truly have to build that hard ticket sale for years and years and years and years. And so I was really intimidating opening myself up to the possibility of like nobody showing up. And I found that people were consistently telling me about how confident I was. And it was frustrating me because people are like, you're so confident.

You're like, no, I'm not. And I'm like, I'm fucking not. Like, I'm not. Or people are like, I wish I was as confident as you. And it's like, I care about my craft. and I try as hard as I can. And like me like trying to be a performer might like come off as like confidence. But I'm just trying to like give you a good show.

You know, like me being like, I am so confident. It's like me just trying to like. I am questioning everything until the minute I step on that stage. I'm like, did I wear the right thing? Did I? And then I get on the stage and it's like you jump into the deep end. And then you just swim. So then you don't have time to think about.

But I'm the same. way. I'm questioning everything about myself to the second I step on that stage and then I'm fighting the dragon. And so then I wanted to be more open about the way that I was feeling kind of over these past two years. Like I the biggest thing that like sometimes I feel like people don't talk about is that there's no like rule book. Like you get signed a label and like shout out to Atlantic. Love UX OXO. Hugs and kisses. But like they don't have like a book in the back to be like, Okay, so this, this is your career path. This is what we're going to do for you.

We're going to press the button right here. And then it's going to go here. And then this is how you're going to have a number one. Like nobody knows what they're doing. So once you figure that out, it's fucking terrifying. And I've been like really scared over the past two years because I just have no clue what I'm doing. And I'm just kind of making everything up.

And so I called it the scared but trying tour because I've learned over the past two years. And no matter how scared I can be in spite of those. feelings I can still try. And, you know, I have kids that are my age that follow me, people that are older, people that are younger than me. And that was like a theme that I was trying to bring into other people's lives and really try and bring into my life is like, you can be scared and you can acknowledge that. But if you can like go out there and try, like, that's the shit that's powerful. And like, I really also realize that like proving to yourself that you can do something is such a big

deal because once you prove to yourself that you can do it, that sticks with you in life and like sleeps into different parts of your life in ways that you don't even know it. And so that's what I was just trying to do with my headlining tour. And a lot of the shows like sold out. And like it's been so fun. And I was, you know, that was something that like. They'll likely all be sold out. If they're not sold out before the day of the show, the walk up will probably be great.

I wonder, do you think that everybody's scared and that if we weren't doing this, we'd be scared of the other thing we were doing? I think everybody is a little scared. I do think there's some people who, like, mask it so hard that they don't even realize that the thing they're feeling is like fear. Yeah. You know? Because I think something that people don't always talk about is like when your dreams

come true, it's terrifying. It is. Because, like, I think for me, I thought that, like, if my music was successful, I would be happy all the time. Like I think I thought it was going to like fill me and it and it does. Like it brings me so much joy. But I thought I was going to be just like happy all the time like all the time 24-7. So then when your dreams come true and then it's not everything you thought it was.

Yeah. What do you do with that? You know? And like I never want to come to this place where I like seem ungrateful or like I'm not happy for the things that I have. I don't think those are related at all. But it's like yeah, that was something that like I was kind of like dealing. with when it was like, whoa, like, I have success and I'm still like, I really like, especially music where music in the industry is now, like, I don't have a guaranteed career for myself

in five years, you know, like that's the thing I'm working towards in my life is like stability. Like that is my biggest thing. And like, I'm not concerned about something happening overnight. I'm trying to stay here and like stick, like put my feet in the ground and like be here and like be here for a long time. And that's also something I really love saying about like even like Paramore and Taylor Swift being on tour with each other. They have been, they both have been in the music industry for such a long time, but they have stood their ground and have been able to like consistently build off of their music for years. And they're both successful in their crafts in really stunning ways. And it's really, really cool seeing their growth because there are times where

it's hard for an artist to maintain a build for 15 years. Yeah. Most of the time people either drop off, give up, get canceled or do something terrible or something, you know? So to really like stay in the industry and like hold your ground. Like that is the shit that I'm trying to do in my life.

Yeah, I think it's one song at a time, one tour at a time. Mm-hmm. And just keep that same effort. and care and integrity with each song, with each tour. And I think that's all all careers are built on like one moment at a time, one song at a time.

And I think you're way ahead of the curve. Yeah. Also, I didn't answer your question. I do think everybody's scared. Also, I realize that I like totally segued. Well, that's the thing is I think we'd be scared no matter what. Yeah. The stakes get higher when we're in this like what we perceive as this dream.

career, even though it's not. I think that adds a fear to it because it all seems impossible. So then you're just scared it's not going to happen all the time. And you have more to lose. You're perceiving you have more to lose. Yeah. If you were at college, you'd be scared in a different way. Yeah.

If you were in a new job. Once it gets real, that's terrifying. Once you are in the public eye in any way and people are looking at you, you're like, oh shit. Like, oh shit, I'm scared. And the idea that like life is. scary there's parts of there's aspects of it that can feel overwhelming or scary um i do think that we attach our fear to things so i think like if it wasn't our career it'd be something else and our

relationship with that fear is what we have to work on i think you're going to have success in your career as long as you show up you work hard you try your best um you stay off drugs things those those those kinds of things. I know people don't want to hear that from the 44-year-old father of two. But like, it is a major kind of cautionary tale. If you start doing drugs, it's not great for your career. But go ahead and try, kid. Like, that's how I feel when I tell a new artist and I see him kind of fucking around

and I'm like, look, I'm not your parent. I'll tell you the drugs aren't helping you. But maybe you'll be the first guy who can do drugs in the rest of his life and live a long, healthy. life and not have problems. I don't think so. If you treat people with respect and you work hard and you're honest, I think you can build a really great career and be happy, which to me is my version of success, my idea of success is to work and be happy. And so if I can have success at work and have success with my family and find the balance, I can be happy. And my version of happiness is

that. Some people's version of happiness is be the biggest artist in the world. Great. Like, everybody has their own version, right? Yeah. So you have to kind of almost like figure out as you go here, you have to keep imagining what I think a happy, successful life looks and feels like. And then I think you'll naturally kind of like align with it and keep walking towards that if that's what you're dreaming up. Because you got here by dreaming this up may not be the exact version, but it might be better than the version you thought. I mean, I did not. Somebody was somebody, sorry I to interrupt,

but somebody once was like, did you ever think, have you wanted to open up for Taylor Swift your whole entire life? I was like, if I knew I could have done that. I would have dreamed of it. I would have wanted a dream to have done that, but I didn't fucking know I was ever going to do that.

I didn't think it was. I didn't know that was on the list. I didn't know that was a fucking possibility. Like, hello? But think about that. Like, like you're discovering rooms in the house you didn't know we're there. You're discovering items on the menu you didn't know were there.

So like that's how I look at life is like, I know if I go forward and I try my best, I'm going to discover something. I had no idea was there. I didn't even know it was in my realm of possibility. This show is a great example of it. A bunch of stuff I do is literally I just was walking down the road. And I kept being open to the ideas and the possibilities. And with each one, they continue to be successful in their own rights.

and it's not necessarily the career I thought I'd have when I was 19. It's better, though. Because I also didn't know I'd be married for a long time and have kids and have a life like I have. For some reason, I thought, oh, I'll just always be on the road, which is also great. I have friends who are lifelong touring. How long did you tour for? Like, how long were you on the road until you, like, stopped? I mean, we were on the road until we were probably like 18 when we started really going out.

We're going hard in the van. And then we stopped around 33. I mean, that's a long time to be on the road. And we were just on the road all year. Yeah. Eight, nine months a year. Yeah. Like hundreds of shows a year.

But then I had met this person and had these kids and I was like the first couple years of their lives. We were still on the road. And I was like, I'm missing so much. And also the band had never took a break. We did, but it's really hard. I can't even imagine, like, taking little ones, like, with the Pink Tour. Like, she had her kids with her and, like.

At this age now, it would be easier. How old are they? They're 14 and 15. Oh, my God. So, yeah. Tell me. The little shits of an age. I was such a little shit at 14 and 15.

Yeah. Oh, my God. They're good. Do they want to do music? In their own ways. Really? Yeah, like my daughter dances. Do they like your music?

Like, or they won't give it to you yet. Like, they can't, they can't admit that they like it yet. They, they, they, they, they. It's not that they don't like it. They don't listen to it. I mean, that probably, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I would listen to like my mom's music. But they respect it. Yeah.

Like, they think it's cool that I did what I did. Yeah. I mean, if you were my dad, I'd be like, yo, it's fucking crazy. Well, I tell them all the time. I'm like, yeah, that was cool that you did that. And I'm like, well, I still do it. You're like, it's still happening. Still a thing.

Like, still playing shows. You're like, yeah, you were so cool. Yeah. What do you feel like the next three? years of your career looks like feels like what are you excited about i'm so excited to make an album i'm so excited i've never made an album before it'd be my first album debut and i'm really really really excited about making it for some reason right now i'm fixating on having an album and pressing it on vinyl and like i'm like obsessing over like getting my album and just like listening to it on a vinyl player and um i kind of i don't know how

I'm going to do it, but I want, I think I want all the songs to like go into each other. Yeah. Roll into each other. You can do that. I already know the concept. And I'm, I'm excited about it because it sets it up to be very experimental in genres, which I'm really excited about. We have a vinyl plant.

We can press the vinyl for you. My God, that would be so cool. Yeah, we do really good packaging and stuff. I'd be so fucking done. We do like limited 500 to 1,000 piece runs of vinyl for people. I would fucking love that. Like it'd be, I would, yeah, I would die. That would be fucking awesome.

Yeah. I love vinyl. Yeah. And yeah, I've, like, I've had my EPs on vinyl before, but I really started, like, just, like, fixating on making that record. I want to, like, collaborate with some bands or whatever. Like, you know, I'd be like, hmm, I wonder. I wonder who if there's a band that I could collaborate with. That'd be like so. Oh, would they? That's crazy.

We would. We absolutely would. caught it caught the fish us in Winnika that would be I would be fucking now Matthew's in good Charlotte so yeah yeah he's in two bands that you know now now I would fucking die yeah just you know try to collaborate yeah more um with with bands or something you know bands are band touring and the live thing and and the rock band thing it is a thing and it is really uh it's it's it's it's really great it the live culture and touring and stuff is is great it's really what I'm trying to get into and like kind of finding my spot in alternative music and in pop music,

you know, because I'll do it. I feel like you're already doing that. Maybe you're you're analyzing it as artists do. But from my perspective, you're doing. That's where it feels like that's the, it feels like you're already there. You're just growing. It means a lot coming from you. So thank you.

Yeah. I, so for me like I write for other artists as well. So like just kind of like. You have a song with Kelly Clarkson? I do. It's awesome. Yes. Yes. I actually wrote that before I wrote ABC when I was 16. I wrote me when I was 15. Wow. Like my friend on like a Sunday and like that's crazy. I wrote about my mom's divorce because my mom got a divorce and I knew Kelly was like ending a marriage and I was thinking about what everybody would write for her. And I was thinking like people would probably go angry or sad. So let's go with empowerment. And so I was like what my, my, my favorite thing when watching my mom go through divorce.

And it was with my stepdad. So like, because it wasn't like my biological father, there wasn't like custody things. Like I, I just like- Do you have a relationship with your biological father? Not particularly.

And it's more just the fact that he really struggles with like his mental health. And he really just like has to focus on him and can't really like. I had a very complicated relationship with my dad. Yeah. And for a lot of the same reasons. So I really understand. understand that. Yeah, it's like, and I feel like with therapy, I've been able to have like so much more peace with it. Like I'm so like, I still am processing the emotions of truly

understanding like what it means to not have that type of father figure in my life. Yes. I also like have never really like had like a true father figure in my life that hasn't disappointed me or disappeared in some sense. So like I don't necessarily like know what I'm missing. It's not like I had a great dad and then they got divorced and then like I never saw him again. I never had this like great thing to miss. So I think that is something where I wasn't always able to acknowledge the emotions that I had because I'm like, well, I'm not missing anything. I don't know what I'm missing. So I'm fine. It's like, well, there's still other emotions you're going to have just because you don't have something to compare it to. It doesn't mean that there's not like a longing.

And I think there is something driving me because I've been like left or abandoned. And not in that particular way, but I processed it like that where it's like, I'm going to work so hard to like prove you wrong to like show you that I don't need you and like I don't need anything from anybody. And like I think that's probably why I'm so driven in such an intense way sometimes. Because I'm like, I'm going to have all the freedoms and I'm going to like do everything for myself that you never did for me. I will say that if I could give you any piece of information that I think helped me, and I wish I would have learned it earlier, so I'm happy to share it with you at your age.

If you can take that and contain that and put it in a box and put it on the shelf with all the stuff that you deal with, so it's not in a back in a closet, it's on the shelf and you know it's there, but you contain it. You can really look at it and deal with it over time and have a relationship with the loss of or the absence of this relationship that you never got to experience that other people did because we are all different and none of us chose our families and what we were born into. Like I said, it is our responsibility to at some point understand it and process it and heal where we need to.

But when I separated that out of my emotional experience and put it on the shelf and looked at it all the time, but I felt separate enough from it that I felt kind of safe from it. Over time, I developed a relationship with it that I thought was really healthy, where just like you're saying, I think you're really mature. I started to look at my relationship with my dad with this other guy who was just like me, went through a life and was a kid and then grew up, went through a bunch of stuff. Doesn't excuse some things. But I think when I started having that, kind of separation from it and I could analyze it and I could look at it when I wanted to and I didn't always have to be happy about it but I also didn't always have to be sad about it.

I started to acknowledge strengths it gave me and then I also started to find that I had relationships with other people in my life that were similar to a father figure but that relationship really did make me resilient and it made me independent in a lot of ways. And I also think I was able to, and this is why I feel super grateful for it, I don't think I would be having the full experience that I'm having as a father if I didn't want it so bad. Yeah. And I think that relationship gave me a deep need to like have the dad experience. And I think I have this really great relationship with my kids. I don't think I'm a perfect dad.

But I think I have this like really fulfilling relationship because of that relationship. so I'm super grateful that all the things I didn't get, there's a lot of healing that happens later on. Yeah, because it's like you almost get to like, in some sense, is like heal your inner child by like giving your kids to things that you never got to like get. Big time. And the fact that you even know that relationship with like your inner child at 19 is a huge, huge emotional advantage. Because I think emotional intelligence is a big part of success in life. and being able to like be in a room and know how to be in the room. That is emotional intelligence.

And I think that's the number one thing we can learn from it. The sooner you can learn more emotional intelligence, the sooner you'll have more success. And I think that like you're way ahead of the game on that. That's probably why you could be articulate in your songs. I'm going to be so therapists in five years. I'm so excited. Yeah. I feel like in five years of my career.

You could be a therapist. a fucking stone wall. You'll have a therapy. Nobody can fuck with me. I'll be almost like 24, 25. Gosh, I want a headline in Europe. I've never done that before. Headline in Europe in the UK.

I bet really good money that you'll do that. Because with my album, I want to start in Europe and the UK and then maybe go to North America. And I've never been to like South America, never been to Asia. I've never been to Australia. So I really want to like play shows there. And I want to write for other artists and like collab for the I want to make a soundtrack Also at some point you're already writing for other artists that's only just going to keep growing

And you're going to go to Europe and south america and australia and asia that's only a matter of time Thank you my goal is to be like a waiter in some fucking movie or like a tv show or something you should do it just like I just pop up for like five seconds i think that should be so funny but you can do that i think i i want to do something like that. I feel like that would be silly. Like my like my pipe dream it's like in five years to do with like one, I really want to work with Labyrinth one day. I think that like. Labyrinth the producer. Yeah. Like oh my God. I think he's one of the most like talented producers ever. And like I would die if I ever got to do what he did was like make a soundtrack for a TV show like that. That's a very rare thing to happen. Like not every not people really get to do that. Honestly though like I think you put it out

there. It's completely obtainable. It's just a matter of people knowing you want to do it. And then they go, oh, I'll have her in mind for that. I did a song for the Barbie album. And that was, that was really fun. That was really fun. That was really fun to do. It was fucking terrifying. Sending songs to Mark Ronson. Yeah. That was ridiculous. He's a really nice guy. He's so nice. I was so scared though. I called him Daddy Mark Ronson. I was back to make him seem less intimidating. It's like, okay, guys, we got to please Daddy Mark He is a daddy. Yeah. Like any man who can produce like that is daddy.

Yeah, he's really talented. 100%. And really nice. He's so funny. Nice, classy guy. He's fucking terrified me. Terrified me. I was rehearsing for Taylor and trying to make a song for the Barbie movie.

And I would cry all the time because I would cry on my way to the studio because I'd be like, I don't know what he wants from me. Like, what is he want? Was he sending you notes and stuff? Yeah, he was. Because here's what I was told. It was so basically it was like, hey, you get a shot to try and write a song for the Barbie movie. Right.

It's not a given. No, you just get an audition. Because I was like, I was just like begging just a, I was like, it was a shot to get a shot, you know? And so then they're like, we'll connect you with Mark and he'll kind of tell you what he wants. And so he. Did you guys talk on the phone? Yeah, he called me. Okay.

And I was freaking the fuck out. Like I was like, he's got a great English accent. Yeah, he was like talking. And I was like, oh my fucking. God. And so then he was like, I love the sound of your records. And I was like, that's insane. I was like, that's insane for like Mark to be like, I love the sound of your records. I was like, wow. And he was like, I want you to make a bedroom pop punk version of Butterfly by Crazy Town. Oh, cool. And I was like, yo, I have no fucking clue how to do that. But like, it sounds like you nailed it because I

listened to it and was like, yeah. It sounds like a pop. It sounds like a pop. Pop punk bedroom pop-punk. That nails it actually. What I did was like, I did that. And then he was kind of like, I didn't sing in any of it though. Like the first version I sent, I sang and none of it. And he was kind of like, you're a singer. Can you please sing?

And I was like, that's fair. But then he asked me to kind of make it more like the original. So I kind of did this like TLC, like no scrubs type type thing. And then he was like, actually I kind of miss what you did before. So that I sent him a combo of the two And then I didn't hear anything for weeks And then I kind of heard he texted me And he was like, hey, we just put it to the scene

And Greta and I like really liked it And I heard nothing. So weeks later I was like, okay, like, I don't know Because I was like here's the rough demo Let me know if you like it I'll change everything and update it For the movie and he was like sick, sick, sick Never hear anything. I get a call

They're like, it's in the movie And I was like, okay sick let me like go in and like record the things. They're like, no, no, no, no. Locked into screen. Like, it's in the movie. That is the version. And I was like, you're fucking kidding me.

And they were like, no, you put your demo in the movie. But actually, the song, literally, I think it's in there for like less than 10 seconds. So it's important 10 seconds. It was a beautiful 10 seconds. It's a beautiful. That's how movies work. And I was like, shout out to those 10 seconds. And then I retracted everything for the album.

Like for the soundtrack, I retracted it. but for the movie, they just like put in the rough demo. And just my friend and I did it. Reed Barron, I produced a lot of my stuff out with him. And it was just the two of us who like wrote and produced it together. That's confirmation though. Those are the moments that confirm that like you're doing good work and that your brand of music is and you have a place in the world

amongst these big pop cultural, these big cultural moments. You could argue Barbie was one of the bigger cultural. moments of the year and you were a part of making that that diverse cultural moment happen was all these parts it's it's mark looking across the music it's you contributing your songs and all the other artists that were probably doing the same thing right and then they're taking that and they're trying to fit it in so that the movie has its moments right congrats thank you that was a very mind-blowing time i wanted that more than i wanted something in like a really long time yeah i mean it's a iconic. I wanted that really, really bad thing. It's iconic. It was so wild. I was with my brother

and he's obsessed with books. So we read a book. He brought me to a fucking library at a bookstore. And I bought the Barbie album at like Barnes & Noble. And I was like, yo, that's crazy. Like that's crazy. And my name was on it. And I was just like, whoa. You want to hear a funny story? Yes. I would love to hear a funny story. Mark's sister, Samantha. Yes. Introduced me and Nicole. Stop. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. Samantha is, and it used to be in the band with my friend Pete Nappy who produced out ABC. So small world. It's such a small world.

That's so, how long? I've been friends with Mark for many years, but Samantha introduced me and Nicole. She was the matchmaker. Wow. So we always forever and ever feel like. I was very close to Samantha as well. Like I, and they're like childhood friends. Yeah.

We met through her. But that's the Ronson connection. Wow. That's amazing. No, he like, yeah, my friend and I. And he's just one of the greats. He's iconic. We were making, we made this song in his basement and like we were just stressing the

fuck out. But his basement sound, I will, I would literally like, I would die for that basement sound and SM7 in that basement. Yeah. The crowds, like the tone of like the sound of the room really added to a lot of the like bedroom style part of the song but I had no clue what I was doing but it was a lot of fun but sometimes our art the stuff that we think took no effort and we didn't really know sometimes it's our best stuff and then sometimes our best stuff is like over complicated and we spend yeah so much time

on it go back to it go back to it go back to it but like you never know which way you're going to get there when you make this thing yeah and then you put it in the world and you never know how people are going to relate to it and where it lives and why that's the out of our control part of art focus on when you're making it just does it feel good do you like it how does it make you feel and then when you feel like it's done you put it out or you send it to the movie or you know give it to the artist kelly clark's into record or and then you never know what's going to happen where the life of that song's going to go because songs are like these living breathing things. You go on the road and they change form when you play them live and they evolve

over time to become these other things. We have a song, people would likely say it's our biggest song, the song, the anthem. At the time, it wasn't our biggest song. It was a song that we actually did for a movie that got rejected. Oh, wow. And we finished it and we put it on the album. And it was probably my least favorite song. And now it's one of my favorite songs because it's taken on a different life. Yeah. So it's cool how that works. That's really cool. With the Kelly Clarkson song that I feel like is the most songwriter's story that song was on hold for about like three years which like I feel like that I used to like I used to not understand when somebody was like they say I have the single but I don't believe it until the song's out right but I have literally like changed songs the

week they're supposed to come out like especially being my own artist I understand it but like yeah like that song was on hold for about one thing I also love is she rewrote the second verse in the course there's no second verse. My friend Josh Ronan and I just wrote verse pre-chorus and just submitted it. And we had like this little post thing. And then she wrote the second verse. And like she didn't bring anybody else in on to write it. Like she wrote the second verse, rewrote parts of the chorus.

Like there's one line in the chorus where it's like I wrote, I'm put together. I'm not broken. I let go of the pain that I'm holding is kind of what it said. And she like rewrote it to be like, I put together my broken. like she did some like cool like flips that I thought was like really really sick um and then she also started covering ABC and like once Kelly Clarkson sings your song like it's not your song anymore nobody else can sing it other than her um and yeah she she switched some of the lyrics and that's just the most iconic shit I've ever heard you're just a uh you're just an icon surrounded by icons

I feel like the one thing that I think about all these different icons I think about the Kevin Bacon game I think that's his name when you're like the actor who knows all the actors the 1% yes like one degree yes the one degree game the one degree yeah that's it sometimes I think about like yeah you're one degree for sure from anyone that you've ever dreamed of being in the company of you are absolutely at 19 years old already one degree of separation away from any iconic musician that's ever guaranteed i guarantee it if you sat down and tried to chart it out you you are one degree who allowed that how did that happen i think you will i think you will it you've at 19 had an amazing career to this point and you're on track to go and do whatever you want and the key is

going to be you just showing up and being you and if you don't let anyone talk you out of being yourself and you trust your gut and you make things you're proud of, you're going to be on track. And that's the coolest thing is when you meet someone that's comfortable in their own skin and that loves what they do and inspired when I meet other people like that. Because that's who at my best I've wanted to be and at my worst I've struggled to be. Right. And so I think you're doing great. Congrats on the tour. Thank you. And good luck with the album. Thank you. I'm so excited. Maybe we can like write together or something for it or something like that. And maybe we could get together with Matt and yeah, do that.

That'd be so fucking. We can write a song. That'd be so fun. Hang, write a song. That'd be so excited. That'd be so same. Thanks for coming here. Thank you.

It's great talking about. For having me here. This is so fun. We can come back. We'll come back and, you know, and we'll do it again. Oh my God, I'd love that. And I'll come to a show. Please do.

It'd be so fun. And we'll get with Matt and we'll write. Yeah, we're right. Yeah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Artist Friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, like, subscribe. to the show anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support, and we'll see you next time.