Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Grace Potter

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Grace Potter. Potter is a Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter whose bluesy approach takes inspiration from the ’60s and ’70s, when singers like Janis Joplin and Aretha Franklin reigned. Last year, she released her fifth studio album, Mother Road, which was produced by her husband Eric Valentine. Recorded across Nashville, Topanga, and Hollywood, Potter was motivated to write the LP after returning from a road trip, and in a few days, she’ll head out on a tour in support that runs until the fall. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter and filmmaker Grace Potter. Let's go. I don't want to bettimes. I don't want to have bad. I'm not an expert on... Beat building. On gear. No, we're not going to talk about... If we're talking about gear, I should have had my husband be here. Well, I do want to talk about your husband. You can talk about my husband. I was really hoping he would sandbag both of us and just show up.

I was hoping that too. In the middle of the interview. Just be like, hey. You know, I, your husband, Eric Valentine, for people listening, one of the greatest record makers of all time, in my opinion. And a lot of people would agree with me. I'm not like, it's not obscure for me to say that. It's not obscure.

Everybody knows somebody. Yeah. Or, listen, I don't mean to not just jump right into a good Charlotte song, but that would be embarrassing for you, so I'm not going to do it. Yeah, no, it's not embarrassing. But also, there's, we've been around the world and there's just no place we've been where people don't know, you know.

You have been touched by a sound from Eric Valentine, whether you know it or not. Yes. Oh, God, that's so sexy. Yeah. Oh, that just got me all kinds of heartburn. And by the way, okay, so, so I luckily we have as much time as we need

as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. But so what I have to say is not only before I finish saying what I want to say about Eric Valentine, because he's been a very important person in my life, I've then discovered recently, just recently, that he's on Instagram. Oh, yeah. That was me. Nerd, nerd and time.

Nerd and time. That was me. Which is like the best Instagram name ever. It fits him perfectly. It is him. Yeah. And he has a fucking very Devonair haircut. I know.

That was me too. And he is. is like great to follow on Instagram. He has like he's rare, but his posts are so random and nerdy. But that's. That's why it's so fun. Why you, that's when you get to know Eric and you get the opportunity to spend any amount of time around him, you learn very quickly like he's the best kind of nerd there is.

There's no one. Yes. He's not of judgmental intellect. No. Because he is intellectual. But he doesn't condescend on people. He's not condescending. He's very grace.

with his ability to receive that you really don't have a clue what you're talking about or what he's talking about. Right. But you want to engage when he's, when you step into his world and he's figuring out these like math problems of music. Because the man can figure out and deconstruct a sound better than anyone I've ever experienced in the world. I've never met a brain that can hear something.

And the first thing they jump to is how did they get the sound versus. like, wow, that's a great lyric or that's me. Like, that melody is out of control. He's hearing the sounds. He's hearing the layers. He's hearing, you know, there's something very scientific about the way his brain hears music, but he's still a musician. See, I think it's sexual. Like, that was why I got so in, I fell in love with him by watching his fingers on the faders. Yeah. I really, what you said about how he's been touched, like whether you know it or not, you've been touched by an Eric Valentine record, I think that might be his intention. I think that he gets off on making something that you've never heard before.

Special. So special that you are, you cannot explain it. It's almost like a Pavlovian reaction to a thing that you don't understand. And I think that maybe you're probably a little more empirical of a thinker than I am. I'm definitely like, I'm all like sacral, just like, where's the fire? All instincts. What's burning? Yeah, all feeling.

Yes. What's, yeah. And as we always say when we're telling stories, I remember how it felt. He remembers how it happened. Right. So maybe you're a little more like Eric. I feel like I'm, I probably relate to Eric in the sense of like I could see him in the struggle when he's trying to figure something out.

Oh yeah. And relate to it in my own way, even though we weren't having the same struggle. It's the chase though, right? It's the chase of the thing. And it's a, there's an authenticity. to wanting to achieve it for real yourself. Yes. Not phone it in and just take the copy.

No. And I also learned a lot from Eric. I say on the list of people who have influenced or affected my life the most over the course of 45 years, if there was a five, Eric Valentine is one of those five. And I wouldn't actually say that many other people in the music industry, I would put on that list because, you know, as artists, we're always going to have a complicated and complicated and conflicted relationship with the business of art. Yeah.

And he figured that out too. I mean, he tried to have a record company, and he and Tony Berg launched the sort of the artist's way approach to record making. And you can't take to creatives like Eric and Tony Berg and expect that anything but chaos is going to come out of it. And I believe that all of the artists and people, I mean, they're very, they love each other and they still talk all the time, but some people should. should not be on the record-making side as NR people, managers,

and the people who are also making the records. I think Arif Mardine is the only one I can think of who like really kind of, and maybe, you know, I mean, Quincy Jones a little, but he was never a manager. I think there's something about the trial and error, what you're talking about, about the chase and watching Eric just want it to be an authentic arrival at a thing that feels true. Yeah.

time. He did it every time. He would figure it out. And if it's a fail, then that's also something he's learning, you know. Yeah. I also learned not to judge my failures as failures too quickly. Yes. Because I'll discover later on what they really were. Yeah. And so I've learned how to like put that into practice more. Yeah. Because I tend to get caught up if I'm not careful on the instant gratification of like the result of something too fast where I need to let go and go like, okay, actually I need to focus on the thing that I'm making that I care about. And then I need to like move on once I feel that's complete.

Yeah. And let the results be whatever they are. And then I'll judge it later. But if you're working with someone you don't trust and if you have a producer with you that is not going to give you a well-rounded understanding. It can take you offline. It'll take you offline. And then you get protective.

You get into a place of you're, you're protecting your brand because someone else doesn't have you in mind. Yeah. And I think that Eric is always. always thinking about the mindset of an artist in the moment, more than the mindset of the overarching career of an artist. Yes. Which is why, you know, when I made my record, I came in with my rock band and he was stoked

because he's like, this band is already great. Like, we're just going to get a killer live record. It's going to be really fast. A year and a half later, I had broken up with my band in front of him in the studio, by the way, very, very dramatic events, you know, that, of course, he'd seen before. many times. But also, he was like, wait, so you just now decided that you want to like just delve into disco? Like, why do you want to make a disco record? You're a blues, like you're a Southern Rock blues chick. Yeah, I see you as like a jam band, you know,

I see you as almost like a true country blues, southern rock. Yeah. It's the world of like, like, I couldn't say I love this. I'm so in. But I'd say it's like country leaning rock. blues. So you fit in the country category to me. Like I've always heard you as a country artist. Yeah. And it's like the Americana country that like exists all over America. Like yeah. I like outlaw country. Yeah, yeah. You know like like. Wayland Dennings and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You fit in that world. Like like the the Stapleton tour is perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Because you guys are in the same world to me. Yeah. Like good songs, really good performances of the vocals. But it's, it's not overdone.

Like when you hear the song, it's like true blue rock and roll. You can hear the guitar being played. You can hear the instruments. And like you can get that wrong if you're trying to do that. But if you just live and breathe that, you do it really right. And you've always done that just like perfectly. You have to be in step with what you're. It has to be you.

It's just got to be you. Well, that's why in the record making process, I had made records with people who I didn't trust. I didn't understand what they wanted from me. And ultimately, I tried to become whatever they wanted, but they weren't making it clear what that was. It was just sort of, you know, the gecko or the chameleon chasing the color. Yeah, when you're young, you're just trying to please everybody because I got this opportunity.

And I don't want to let anyone down. Oh, yeah. I mean, and I was a really ugly duckling. So when Disney came asking to, you know, to take me and my band and, like, elevate things up to a Linda Ronstat, Eagles level. It was Bob Cavallo's Swan Song at Hollywood Records, and he signed us. It was like one of those last million dollar contracts, early 2000s. Yeah, yeah. And all I remember is thinking, yes, I'm so lucky, but boy, what have I just teed myself up for? Like, what course am I on? Yeah. And I'm grateful for. I had 10 years at Disney where I got to do

everything I ever wanted with scoring, you know, film, film was always my passion before the band. And I started making little, like, short films in college. And I would, my musicianship, I felt, would just lend itself because I wouldn't have to hire someone to score the movie. And then I met the band and that, you know, all changed. And suddenly the filmmaking and the storytelling and also just the collaboration of a, of a whole project of people. got lost and the singular focus on playing festivals and getting out there in front of more and more audiences opening for people like Dave Matthews and Taj Mahal and Mavis Staples. Like that felt just as good.

And it felt like we were a part of something bigger than just me trying to be a big old star. And so it felt genuine, but I really missed the chance to, I wanted to be like a cartoon voice. You know? Right. So I got to do that. And I got to do a lot of other things at Disney that were really fun. I'mena. And, like my music, my hair changes with me and has to be able to keep my rhythm.

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your period of Provea for an euro al-mess in Shopify.combe, barrage. What cartoon voice for you? I was the bartender in the Christmas special. It was basically just like where the elves that set up for Santa. Yeah, yeah.

You know, prep and landing. I love that. Prep and landing. And that's where I first worked with Michael Jack. You know, that was the moment where I realized that I wanted to get back into film. And leaving, for me, leaving behind the feeling of like being isolated by a record, you know, like where the end. expectations of the ANR people.

The label's all there. The pressure's on. They're waiting for you to knock it out of the park. Yeah. I never didn't feel that pressure. It always felt like brain surgery until I met Eric. Yeah. Eric brings it back to the actual thing we're there to do, which is make a record.

And love making that record. Yeah. And I think we all experience that. You get in there and everything's so big. and like the A&R guys, oh, he must know what he's talking about because look at all those records on his wall. Yeah. You have no idea how the guy was involved in those records, right?

Also, you can just buy records. I didn't know this, but you can just go buy records that you were not a part of. Yeah, call up Jewel. I'm really upset about this. Yeah, Jewel, the company. Yeah. There's a plot, but. It makes me really scared.

But what I realized in my older age was the kid who was 15 and said, I think I can do that. I'm going to try, had to validate himself every step of the way because me and my brother were just trying and no one give a fuck. Yeah. I'm like, good luck kids. Yeah. They're really going for it. And you're like, no, no, I'm serious.

This is what I want to do. Okay. Good job. That's pretty good. Maybe you can be like them. And you're like, no, no, no. Take this seriously. I'm going to do this.

And then you get there. and then you do it. And then you have a new set of people. And that's not the end either. And then you have a new set of people who are like, well, see, if you listen to me, kid, you might make it. And I'm like, as an older guy, I'm like, I wouldn't let you pick out my shoes.

Yeah. No, I know. I really. Let alone a song on my record. That's exactly why I didn't understand what A&R was. And when I heard that Eric and Tony had tried to have a record company, I was like, but why? Like what is that job?

What is your job? What do you do? Why? Because they want to fix something. And that's a noble. It is. Then they realize that they may not want to go through what you have to go through to be a part of that process. And I think that like, I wouldn't say that that's a failure.

I would say that they, because the truth of the matter is, is if they decided to continue on, they would likely be still doing it and very successful at it because successful people, they replicate success. It just takes time. So it's like if I stay in here long enough, I'm going to figure out this game and I'm going to win this game too. Right. It's a video game. But it's a long.

Is the whole world just Fortnite? The whole world is Fortnite. I wish it was sometimes, to be honest with you. It's a really magical place to go out of everybody. I see a little silhouette off of you. We have a hit record. Yeah. I always wonder what like whatever the shield is.

It would actually make you feel. Is that like alcohol or mushroom? Or a shield or I don't know. It's like splash. I wouldn't know. Slurp. Shug jug. Chug jug?

Chug. Yeah, it gives you shield. I had no, okay, that's a fucking made up thing. That's not a real thing. No, it's a real thing. Okay, okay. So all I'm saying is that they, very probably early, in the early stages of what would have been a long period of development, realized this is not a game I want to play. I'm going to go back to what I like to do because quality of life versus.

Yeah. So you made that choice when? old were you when you figured that out? I'd say I learned how to choose quality of life, those kinds of decisions, in the last 10 years. Right. Me too. 35 to 45. Yeah. I mean, I'm 40 and I think there's been eras of my life where I really thought I had it all figured out, but I was still people please. You're very young 40. Well, thank you. I am wearing sunglasses. Yeah. I can't tell if I'm an old 45 or a young 45, but I feel in the middle. I think your experience is different than most people, so it's hard to compare you to anyone,

except that you do have a twin. It's like the astronauts, Scott Kelly and his brother, you know, where they're like, okay, y'all have both been to space for a long-ass time. Let's go to space. What's your bones like? Yeah. You know? Yeah.

I don't know. But really, I think having a companion in the journey is something that I really missed. The superpower. But I really, I wish I'd had that. And I am a Gemini, so I think there's always been two of me. But you're a Gemini. I'm a Pisces. Well, that's my, that's my mom is a Pisces. And that's the sign that I've always connected the most with because it feels like a balancing power. Yeah. And for me, I'm not like, I don't want to get too woo-woo about it, but there's two of me for sure. Right. You have two

sides. So both of them had to get wise. Right. And I'm one of them still definitely not. Definitely not. Definitely not. Definitely. My brother's wiser than me. Yeah, really? Yeah, big time. He does speak more like a guru, but not like a creepy guru. No, no, he's like very wise. Yeah, he has like a soft. And he's got a toughness to him.

Yeah. He's got a real, there's a quiet confidence. There's a quiet confidence. There's a heavy reality to him. Like he'll say something and you'll be like, yeah, damn, that is the reality. Yeah. But I like, I'm a little more dreamy. Yeah, I can tell because we met and I feel like I've known.

you guys forever. Yeah. I'm going to tell you a little story. And I'm sure that Eric has told it, but he doesn't really do a lot of press around records. Do you know about why he brought you to Cambria to write songs? No. Okay.

So this is one of my favorites, good Charlotte stories. So Eric, you know, hearing the adults as he refers to the record company, he always refers to the record company, mainly the people that are ringing their hands who have a job to do. And they're like, ah. Yeah. So you had just met Nicole. I believe Benji was with Paris at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And y'all were just like on your phones all the time. Yeah, we were just texting, texting, texting, text. Yeah. We were just out in fucking la la la land. Well, like, by the way, the best thing in the world and the birth of all great songs comes from that feeling. Sometimes. Right. So then he's like, I got to find a place that has no cell reception. Yeah. I hate to tell the story. I was holding.

No, I love to tell the story. And tell it himself. Yeah. But seeing as he's not here, I feel like I get to experience your face at this. Because really, he knew that songs were already there. He knew that this lively understanding and camaraderie between the two of you existed. And it only came down to focusing. Focus.

And I don't think the record company said any, they didn't pick up on that. They didn't realize, like, what the cause out. You know what I mean? They had no evidence as to what would actually. we get the record done? Yeah, at that point, too, we were unmanageable. Wow. You're never going to man. I still am. And he married me. Yeah, like the no record company at that point was going to tell us. Right. Like, we were off the rails. Which is also one of the things I love about Eric when he was first like, well, let's see what the adults say. You know, he's not one of them. Yeah. And he talks sense to you.

Yeah. Yeah. And if Eric told me something, I always heard it. Yes. I always listened. I know. Whether I agreed or whether I didn't or whether I understood. There's something to glean from it, even if you don't agree. But he wouldn't say things he didn't mean. Never. And he always said it from the heart. And he always had a way of delivering it with like a real gravity of his own truth. But it wasn't like heavy handed.

No. It was very much just him. And you would listen. And whether you agreed or you understood, you would listen. And there was room for him to like, for that idea to live in your brain and take root. And a lot of times later on, I'd be like, Eric said that. He was right. Well, I always like it when he says something and then he takes his bare feet and he kind of slaps him on the ground.

I call it the beaver tail slap where he sort of pronounces the end of a sentence with his little. Yeah. You know, he'll do that, especially the word, all right. So that's the thing of like, it's time to move on. Yeah. And he'll do this little slap with his feet that is just, I think that might have been it for me. That was when I was like, okay, I am a beach ball. Like, he's a Mac computer and I am the beach ball.

Like, I am the thing that is slowing this down. Yeah, yeah. And he's moving, he's got 700 steps ahead already planned out. Yeah. But also he's open to changing them based on what happens in this moment. And that is a very hard thing to achieve as a creative and as a administrator of creative people. So the band back then, their resistance to working with a producer like Eric is I look out for that when I see it in early artist development. Because at MDD and we've developed a lot of artists.

We really actually do spend the first year of a relationship trying to figure out if there's a relationship because we all have to share a certain amount of values. And then we all have to have our own self-reliance. Yeah. So I can't tell you what to do. No. If you come to me with what you're doing. And a big idea. I might be able to help you figure out how to make it a little better, how to get there a little faster.

But I'm not, we all have to have our own drive. Yeah. And then when we find good partners, it works really well together. So we all have strengths. One of the best ways to have success is work with successful people. Yeah. But again, now we're returning to this thing of proven. It's like the proof is in the pudding.

What if the pudding is shit the second time you try? That's why you got to keep trying. Because, you know, Eric is one of these people who he made the record with you. He made a record with Nickel Creek. He made songs for the death. Nickel Creek was one of my favorites. I just love Michael Creek. Yeah.

What a dive, like a complete seagull going for the wedding cake in the middle. Did he do Queens of the Stone Age? Queens of the Stone Age. Songs to the Deaf. Yep. He did. I mean, Smash Mouse, Third Eye Blind. Yep.

All-American rejects. All-American. But also before all that, this rapper, Paris, who had truly, I think Eric, if Eric hadn't started with rappers. he wouldn't have built, and T-Ride, he wouldn't have built to this person with the ethereal patience that he has. Right. Because that is a real tribe of like the people he was working with, they would, you know, there was a very large group of people who didn't respect him. They just, he was the slug that took too long when they had a great beat and an idea and it was time for it to be done.

So he learned how to work fast by being in the, in a very modular setup of like, I. need to arrive quickly because I might get shot if I don't, you know, and I don't know. I don't want to quote him on that, but I think it was something to that effect. There was always firearms in the building and things got robbed from him a lot. But the next day, you'd be like, can I have that back? We kind of need it for this track. And they're like, oh, okay, sorry. You know, and I think there was a disarming quality to his willingness to keep going

and his willingness to learn what it is to. to work with any kind of artist. Because, I mean, I'm sorry, but from me to you to Nickel Creek, like, that's a very wide. It's a spectrum. Yeah, it's a spectrum. That's a sex party I want to go to. Oh, yeah. So, like, sign me up.

Yeah. Pick a safe word. We're good. Let's do this, you know. Yeah. But in that setting, I'm not comfortable. Right. You know, and I think that I had come up in a world where no was a much safer word.

That's funny. I cannot see you being uncomfortable. I just couldn't believe anybody wanted to be my friend. I was a real ugly duckling and legally blind. Me too. Yeah. And I had braces and dreadlocks. Wow.

Picture to that. Wow. Yeah. I don't know. Vermont. That's cool. Yeah. That is very Vermont.

It is. Yeah. Because I mean, it was fish concerts. Yeah. And by the way, interestingly, music, I was so musical, music came out of my bones, but I got kicked out of band. Really? I got kicked out of band for.

Trouble focusing? Pretending to sight read. Oh, wow. I still can't read me. I can't either. You know, but I, I didn't care what people thought I was. I knew what I was. And I knew that it was a burden.

I knew that there was a talent in me that was bigger than sheet music. Yeah, we didn't fit in. No. Until we went out there and we did our thing and then we fit in. That's why all the chaperones hated me. But that's why I always tell people like, find out what it means to be you, not someone else. It's great to be inspired by other people. But the minute I start trying to imitate someone.

I've got to find out what it means, however long it takes, I have to go down the road and figure out who I am, what I like, and trust it. Do you remember what age you were when you first said that to yourself? I think I unconsciously did it out of forced necessity at 15. I think because life was so bad, I think we started the band out of the necessity we needed something. And it really did save us from a... a lot of other things.

Yeah. So I think the first five years was all unconscious, full steam ahead effort. The chase. Just running away from that and getting to that. Yeah. It must be better there. Let's go. Wow.

Like, let's get that record deal. Let's get that money. Let's get that thing. Let's get after that thing. Let's be something. And then we get on the other side of that and we were something. Yeah. That's when all the problems started where I was like, who am I?

Yeah. Then you ask yourself that question. And in late 20s, early 30s is all. already that, who am I? What is this? Zoolander in the puddle moment. But you don't... Zoolander in the puddle. Who am I? My man. I don't know. I don't know. If this is a school for ants? And then you realize that maybe you are running a school for ants. For real though. Like I think that realizing that I was an artist in and of myself and that the nocturnals, the name, the band, the identity, the support, the village that I had built, um,

didn't believe in the same things or care about the same things I cared about. Yeah. It was a really scary moment in my life. And it was traumatizing for everyone. But then you did it and you're, yes. And you're fine. Yeah. But I'm still triggered every single time.

Someone's like, man, we can go back to do the nocturnal stuff. Like, well, the nocturnal stuff is me because I wrote all those songs. Right. Then I feel myself compelled to become defensive. Right. You know what I mean? That's something with you. Yeah.

I think the cataclysm inside of every artist is that. where is that firing point? I have that too around certain things. Yeah. What's your big firing point? What pisses you off? What is the thing that makes me feel defensive? Because I want you to think I'm this.

Right. Right? Instead of just like. Your new identity. Instead of just receiving it as yeah, look, hey, I'm never doing that again, but I love that you love it. Yeah. Right?

Like that should be my attitude, but I'm so caught up in my thinking that actually a stranger can say something to me and it affects me. Yeah. That's when I know. know that I have an insecurity around something that I need to work on and love myself more and work on myself more. Yeah.

When I feel, listen, if I ever feel insecure or jealous of my wife, with like, with like, she's always doing some beautiful photo shoot. She's like glamorous or she's on set with someone or she's doing a TV show and she has to kiss someone. If I get insecure about it, I have to check with myself. I have to check in with myself. It's not her job to make you feel good. Not her job at all.

Yeah. And I shouldn't make her feel bad about going. into the world and doing what she wants. Yeah. She should feel free to go and live her best life. Yeah. And so if ever I get insecure or jealous, which I struggled with when I was younger because I had a low self-esteem.

Of course. So every relationship I was just. We all did. I was just like, I was not good enough. Yeah. And so everyone was better than me. Then I got older. I worked on myself, started going to therapy.

Yeah. And age also gives you wisdom, experience and you get some confidence there. Now I would say I don't have a jealousy problem. But every now and then, that little old voice comes back up. Yeah. And I'll go to be mad at her. Mm-hmm. And then I'll stop myself and go, wait, where are you tripping about?

Like, what's wrong with, like, stop and look at what you're upset about and figure out why you feel so insecure. And it always comes down to, I'm afraid she'll, she won't love me or someone's better than me. Well, that's you. You're afraid that you're not good enough. Yeah. It's not her. It's not her problem. Yeah.

And then however long you need, go for a drive, call your brother, admit it to someone. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever I need to do, I do it. Admitting it to someone is a really good piece of advice, Joel. And I think that's something that if you have your trusted people, not your yes people. No, no, like your guy, your guy. Your guy.

Drew's my guy. And the other day, I was on Instagram. I never read comments. In fact, they're like hidden. All the comments are hidden. Yeah, but every now and then. It was a quick one that came up. So it's like the first one in the thing.

It's like the first blurb. You saw it. And it really was just this. It was such a like selfless post that I had done about I didn't, I was so not thinking about owning or pivoting the conversation or controlling conversation. I was just sharing a piece of my history. Someone just threw an egg at it. And I thought, I feel so bad.

And of course, the worst part was I thought I was so smart. I said and I never write in the. comment section, but I wrote back to this person, I feel so sorry for you that you can't see a powerful woman who stepped out from the shadow of potentially abusive, codependent, really, really destructive relationships with multiple band members that you couldn't see that. I'm like, why am I putting all that? And then, of course, I'm deleting, delete, delete, delete, delete. Like, I had all this stuff I had to say, but we all do that. I've written back a comment. Yeah. And then deleted it. Thank God. I I very rarely post comments.

Your edit button is a strong one as you get older. Always wait. Yeah. See how you feel later. If you still want to write it, I always give that advice. But we all do that. But I think there's a thing about it that's beautiful.

Social media is a very destructive force. It's also a very addictive force. And it's something. And that's why the comments are not helpful. I don't care the good or the bad, what people think of me. I want to continue to expand. And I want to continue.

And when I say I don't care, of course I care. What I know is that if I spend my time putting my attention and my very small little dot, my raindrop in the bucket of time on that instead of making and creating the next thing and being curious and failing and stumbling and bumbling and bumbling and hiring musicians, not because they're the best ones that are at the top tier of their performance, but like go find the green girl from fucking Greensboro, you know, North Carolina, who definitely did not ever submit herself for a gig and be like, I don't know if she's

going to be. He's from Greensboro? No, India, one of my guitar players is from India. From India. She's from Greensboro. She's incredible. She was very young. She was very green.

I auditioned her. But it was everyone in my whole management crew team, everybody was like, it's not her. That's the problem. It's that you are. you're at this level. Right. And we don't even know if she wants to tour.

Right. I thought, no, no, this is a new beginning. I want to feel that green energy again. But also I don't want to be a vampire. So you start being curious again and you go reach out to those people. She is an unbelievable presence on stage and she has come into her own. It took a year of us working, rehearsing, playing together for her to come and step into her wisdom and her brilliance.

But she's like me. She's from no time. What's her name? India Bratton. Okay. And I mean... Sick guitar player. Sick guitar player.

Check her out, y'all. She's got... It's India from elsewhere. And I told her when we first met, I was like, you and I are both from elsewhere. And so she changed her little tag to... That's dope. India from elsewhere. But she is a good example of what I think I was chasing at the beginning.

The unknown and the potential for failure is much more interesting to me than knowing that there's a tried and true answer. So Mother Road, which I love. Thank you. What's the difference between Mother Road and Road Trip? So if you go on Spotify, there's a road trip like an album. Oh, Road Trip being the playlist, I think. Right.

So it's a playlist. That's actually, that was made by Spotify. I didn't make that playlist. It's in your like releases. It's because when that record came out. I didn't understand that. I didn't either because I've never been put at the top of a Spotify playlist. So the road trip playlist got, it came out the day of my record, which is confusing.

It's a good playlist. It's a great playlist. And also something that I think codified for me, the reality that maybe I am in the like, like you, you know, that there's times where people don't even know they've heard one of your songs, but they have. Yeah, you're just in the zeitgeist. Yeah, I'm in there a little bit. You are absolutely.

I'm in the taint. I'm in the taint. Yeah, you're right on the, just right there. Yeah. But interestingly, road trip, because it happened. at the same time as Mother Road, and it has so many more plays than my whole record does, because people didn't know it was a different thing.

Right. And you don't have to buy it. You know, it's great because you're not like, no one's making a choice. It's just available. Yeah. And it really does capture the essence of what Mother Road was. And I think that is a sign that, me...

Mother Road is like a road trip album. That's an album that I made after driving across the country during clinical depression era, COVID times. I drove across the country by myself four times. That's awesome. But it was like this, what are you doing? Terrible that might have been for you at the time? It wasn't terrible.

It was amazing. It was amazing for me. It felt true. Right. And it felt honest. And the, yeah, the words that came from those like scribbling down in every little motel room, you know, notepad that I could find or even one time, you know, they always have a Bible in the drawer.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes like these shitty motels don't have a notepad available for you. Write it in the Bible. So I wrote it in the bibble. I found my own Bibble and I just You know Edit the Bible

Yeah a little bit Little bits Little last test You know Some Testament shit and Old Testament That was another whole thing Was God doesn't actually mind that

God doesn't mind Because it's all It's all right there for you If you just Stop and breathe And one of the things about Being a touring musician Since I was a teenager

Is that I don't know how to stop and breathe Unless I'm moving Right It's the moving That's where you can stop. me stillness. It's riding in the car where you're actually stopping and thinking.

We're going somewhere, but I am still. Yes. That's, hence the car. That car that I'm driving right now today that I pulled in, 1985 AMC Eagle, found it on the side of the road in Gallup, New Mexico, wrote a note and asked the person, whoever the owner was, I'm like, hello, whoever you are, I know your car broke down on the side of the road. That's just the car for me, you know, and then it fell off the windshield, blew away, blew up

against a fence of someone who found the note and called my number. I signed it as me. Signed Grace Potter and dude didn't give a fuck who I was. He just like ran a, you know, a ranch nearby. I was like, well, I don't know whose note this was for, but it sounds like you want to buy a car. I still have the voicemail. It's so funny. That's crazy. But he kind of put it together that maybe it was a car that belonged to someone who had been going to get it upholstered and long story short, finally tracked the car down. It was in Texas. And you bought it. I bought it. I bought it. I bought. bought it, drove it back here, and now it's finally, and it's, it was it, it was $4,000. Great.

And then another $11,000 to fix it and make it drive. That's how old cars work. Yeah, super cute. It's so funny that we casually throw out numbers like $11,000 and $4,000, like no big deal, because I remember when that was not just a big deal, but all of my money and also my entire band's paychecks. And I think that's what I wanted to feel again. I wanted to remember it.

and honor it and feel the gratitude and the longevity of how much work I've done, but also how much more work I have to do in order to earn that $11,000 to casually buy a stupid broken down fucking AMC Eagle on the side of the road. I actually don't think there's anything casual about it. I think that you're absolutely decisive. Yeah. And you knew you wanted it. So I understand if someone's listening and they hear me throw a number around.

Yeah. It sounds casual. It's not casual. every single one of my dollars is my favorite one. It's my favorite dollar. But when I buy something, I'm thoughtful about it. I don't just fucking buy whatever. And I'm happy to pay the other person for their thing.

Whenever, if it's an old car, like your car, I have a couple old cars that I love. I'll never sell them. They're emotional to me. They're valuable. They all have a reason. There's something more valuable than the money. That's why I'll spend $10,000 getting the car fixed or whatever. I'm not casual about the $10,000, but I'm also honest about how much I spent fixing it.

And I think that's the thing. I wanted to be honest with you about what I spent on it because you can't just, it's romantic to buy a $4,000 car. It is not romantic to fix that $4,000 car. Every old car you're going to spend money. The rest of it, as long as you own it, you're spending money on it, however much. That's another whole, I mean, dude, we could just do a podcast just on cars. But there's something about the willingness to spend the money to bring it to its former glory.

Yeah. For me, it's part of what I love antiques as well. Yeah. I don't just blow money on antiques, but every now and then I'll find something. And I have to have it because I'm holding a piece of history. Yeah. And if someone doesn't take care of it, it will be lost in the trash heap. So you know what's interesting about what you just said?

It's like humans. I think that meeting an object is like meeting a human. We are animated or we seem to be these, you know, conscious creatures moving around in the world. but what if all the cells in our bodies are exactly the same as that bench you just have to kick your foot up on? Because it's a relationship. I'm hitting a tender spot for any hoarders out there because I'm one of them. I'm a hoarder too.

Spoken, truth. I got to say it like. You don't want to see my special room. Yeah. Storage space. My special room in the house. I call it the everything room. Daddy's room.

Oh, God. Because all my mess is contained to that room. Mine is the jungle basement. Because my kids and my wife know that I have like a. That's your special space. It's a little spot in me that hasn't fully been worked out yet. You've compartmentalized those. I can't let go of stuff.

No. So it's emotional. And I think there is a thing about records. So the reason why I always have compassion and non-judgment for those fans that come to me and say, like, I just really miss it when you make that record. That record was everything to me. That record saved my life. I'm sure you have the same thing. Yeah.

Why can't you just make that record again? I wish I could. Over and over again. So check it out. It's not that they want you to make that record again. They want to feel the feeling they felt when they first heard your record. Yeah. They want to be the person that you made them feel like when they heard your voice and they heard that baseline and they heard a thing that they could attach to and feel like they belonged inside of.

Yeah. So for me, it's never been about music like that, even with Bowie or, you know, Edda James. Like I can live in, yeah, I can live in some songs a little bit, but I don't live for songs. I don't have my desert island records because, you know, what I say to people when they ask me for my desert island records, I'm like, put me on a desert island with anything but a record player, and I'll make something of it and myself. If I'm just sitting there with the old records, how sad is that? How sad would it be to already have all the creativity done? Yeah, you'd rather have the recording gear on the island. But that's why you're you. Yeah, I hope so. That's the difference between a maker and someone who enjoys

what the maker makes. But we need those people as well. There's a place for all of it. I'm grateful for the people that can just appreciate a record. Yeah, I love it for it. Boy, please stop asking if the nocturnals are going to get back together. That's my thing is like, I don't ever want to be on a desert island stuck with any old record because I know what pain goes into every moment, every session,

those record company executives ringing their hands, and how much insecurity and intolerant. and misjudgment and misguidance probably led to that thing that someone loves. So I never attach myself to any one thing an artist puts out. I attach myself to a creative entity that feels true for me, like House of Harlow, for example. It's just like a thing where it's like, if it's repeatedly speaking to me and tracking that many times,

I'll make sure she gets you. There's probably something going on there and you should probably explore that, you know? And same with movies. I feel like I could live in a lot of movies, I think, more than albums. Yeah. Because it's more. It's a community that feels a little bit better than me, maybe?

I don't know. Well, there's still magic there because you're not completely fully immersed in how it's made. Whereas with records, you probably hear a record more like I hear a record where we can kind of hear how it's made. Yeah. And we immediately go into like our critical thinking, our critical ear. How'd he do that? How to do that?

And we all have that when we've made records. But there's things like movies, TV that still have magic. So we can dream a little still and be lost in the art where music, even though I still love to hear a song, I still listen to it with a more critical ear than the average person probably. It's hard for me to listen to pop music. Yeah. I like, you know, Falakuti and like Turkish disco. I like weird music from the 70s that's from like Israel. Like, I go into like, okay, there's this one studio in Jordan that made like six disco records.

And it sucks when the singer starts singing. Sometimes it's amazing, but most of the time it's like, oh, this is a religious, this is probably a religious album that I might be offending half the people in the room. But God damn, does that bass sound fucking incredible. And it's probably newspaper stuffed into an amplifier that lit on fire later that day. Yeah. But that's better for me. Magic. Because it's not a story that I relate to.

It's a story that I'm observing like, yeah, just being present in the moment. Which is, by the way, I just want to point out something else about your whole space here, which I just realize that all your album covers and all your posters feel like movie posters. Yeah. They all read like a Tarantino movie poster. Sort of. Yeah. We like, we're just like little dreamers.

Yeah, but it's really cool. The aesthetic is more cinematic than I was expecting. And this is what my brain feels like. Yeah. Yeah. So your room that's just yours. It's kind of like this, but with piles of stuff. I mean,

and boxes and shit. Drew spends more time in the jungle basement than me these days because I'm not allowed down there because I get lost for days. I get embarrassed when people come in. I don't let anyone in that room because it's like really, it's actually me. Like that's what my brain feels like. You should let me in that room. I bet you I know what to do with it.

I could deal with it. You know what's funny. Last thing, because I have one more question. I was talking to Nicole and Paris are getting back together and doing this like reunion show for The Simple Life and they were she was at the house they were talking about or whatever somehow Nicole was like oh jolly could put that up in your room like a little joke and I was like and she's like what's your room and I was like I have a room where I just keep like everything and she's like I have a warehouse where I keep everything that's and I was like you do and she's like

yeah I have a golf cart I drive around in the golf cart and it's all organized. And I was like, that sounds like my dream. No, it is. It's like in the movie Clueless when she sits down. And, you know, there's like an entire lore. I got into this thing where people get their things, their objects that they're attached to. But it's really about how you care for them.

Are you a custodian of something that you care about? Yes. Or are you mistreating it by leaving it unappreciated? Yeah. So the fact that she gets in a golf cart drives around speaks volumes to how much those. That means. that they're really treasures and not something that she finds a burden. And I think that's, you know, for the hoarders out there that are listening, there's no judgment here. It's just like,

find a way to organize if you can. And over time, you can try and you can do it. You can really do it. I'm selling all of my stuff for my foundation. That's not bad. Yeah. What I love is that like some of the antiques, a lot of the antiques I find are actually really good. Yeah. So Nicole likes those and she puts those around the house. That makes me feel really good. So she's allowed in. She's allowed in. Yeah.

Well, there you go. See, now that's why you guys are still married. But I don't like people touching anything. Right. Right. I actually, that's why I'm like,

I want to do. So for my festival this year, because I've got my big festival coming up, Grand Point North. So Grand Point Foundation is part of Grand Point North. That's coming up January, July 25th through the 28th. Okay. It's the first time since COVID.

Oh, wow. 20 was supposed to be our 10th annual. And, you know, there's not that many female around music festivals. 10th annual is real. It is. It's a real thing. And it's been, I've had incredible acts come through bringing in friends who are doing me a huge favor and taking a lower fee to come to a small market, you know. Everybody's chipping in.

And it is that feeling of taking creative people and putting them throwing it against the wall, spitballing it against the wall. Because that's what I think Vermont has always been for me is a place to go back to the drawing board. not fall asleep in the middle of the woods like fucking Goldilocks and wake up with rumble stilts get inside me. You know what I mean? Like, no thank you. I don't want to go through that journey. I want to have my own power and my own narrative, but also... You do.

If I want to free myself from some of the things that I feel guilt about or shame about or fear about for the future, it probably is my acquisition of too many items. Right. The car is not one of those things. Oddly enough, but clothing... No, you curate and you edit. Yeah. And you really, it makes you actually, it forces you to decide.

Yes. What you actually care about. Yeah. And you, it also creates space. I'm ready for that. If you're ready to let go of some things. Yeah. Like, it doesn't mean you don't care about them.

No. But you have to decide. Like, I only have so many hours in the day. I only have so many, so much space in my brain. I'm going to hold on to this and I'm going to let that go. Nicole's helped me with that. Yeah. A little bit.

Yeah. A lot. Yes. And I'm getting there. You're probably more. You're probably further in your development on that. No, I just throw things away so I can make more room for new things. Yeah.

But that's different now because I think there's an intention and a purpose behind it. I've never sold any of my shit. But it makes you feel good if you're selling it for a good cause. Yeah. And that's the thing is now I have a place to put the value. And you have a purpose. Yeah. It's replacing the piggy bank that is things with a piggy bank that is purpose.

Yeah, exactly. I really now understand what I've been doing this whole time. That's good. I've been hoarding for the rest of the rest of. right reasons, I think. It was worth it. Or I reverse engine. I was right.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. I'm excited. You have to come to my jungle basement. It's an incredible thing. I will, I'm going to share, I'm going to share a video clip of the jungle basement that you can throw in as an insert later because it's fucking wild down there. And everyone who's been there's like, oh dear.

And it is like you're sharing the inside of your brain. Because we'll put it in the social clip. Yeah. So besides the festival, which is awesome, what are you? the most excited about for the next 12 months? Making my movie and becoming more involved in the film, the process. I executive produced a movie that just got the audience award at South by Southwest. Sick.

Yeah, it's called Resonator. Awesome. And that is a 10-year project that I did with my former Drew, Alison Tavill, the director. And it's about her discovering her late father who died when she was three weeks old through the synthesizer that he invented. Wow. And so it comes off initially as like a synth nerd. movie. Yeah. And we got some incredible people to participate in it, you know, food fighters and

and Peter Gabriel and LCD sound system and Gautier. I mean, there's amazing people that got deeply in, and Fred Armisen, who makes a great appearance. Amazing. But it was the 10-year process. Wow. And when we went to South by Southwest, it was my favorite week of my life because I got to be in support of somebody else's dream. And my only job as executive producer was really like, introduce her to musicians, put her in the right rooms with the right people, but mainly just talk her out of quitting, like over and over and over again. It's worth it. Keep going. Yeah.

Keep going. So now that I've had the pleasure of being a part of something that is bigger than myself, that I'm not the star of, that I'm not at the center of, I realize that returning to my film school days and going back to some of those really great ideas I had when I was 1920 isn't golden age thinking anymore. It's not glory days. it's not sad. I used to think it was sad. Right.

Now it's like, no, there's universes inside of there that I would love to explore. And so, yeah, it's like a frontier. I'd never had an agent before. I have an agent. I have an acting agent, a lit agent. I've got IP, baby, you know, and it's called Mother Road. The movie's called Mother Road. It's a neo-noy thriller.

I'll send you the pitch deck. It's fantastic. Awesome. But it's also a journey that I don't need it to be a success. Yeah, you need it for something else. I just want to make it. Right. And the AMC Eagle is actually the star of the movie.

So, again, it's all going into the piggy bank of purpose. Yeah, it was actually, yeah, that is. When you see the car, it looks like the star of a movie. Yeah. Because it is. It's special that car. Yeah. Yeah, I got a lot of looks today.

And you have some touring coming up. A huge tour. So Stapleton tour is going to take me through the summer. Just like Hollywood Bowl or whatever. Two nights at Hollywood Bowl. And then those sold out so fast that we actually added a pop-up show. at the Trubodore, which I'm just as excited about the Trubodore. That's going to be the sickest show.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, and that's sold out in a day. So there's things about touring that I love the big moments. Carnegie Hall on Friday, this past Friday, I played. So I said, you know, at the beginning, Times Square, you know, playing in the little Howard Johnson Lounge eating pancakes as our payment for the gig, felt huge. It felt like Carnegie Hall. And then I played Carnegie Hall on Friday.

That's pretty sick. And those are moments where you use. start to realize like I can't wait for what's next but I also cannot help but like stop for a second and breathe and be with my son and my amazing fucking husband yeah and realize that's the whole life wow what an embarrassment of riches what a wonderful wild drop in the bucket I am you have a very cool you're building a very cool legacy you have a really cool family yeah um and you're at the beginning of a very exciting chapter of a really, really great career. And I think that it's the lucky ones who realize what they have when they have it while they go towards the next thing,

the next thing, which is always going to be the dream. And we have to do it. Oh, yeah. But to be able to stop and be a mom and have a family is something that I think some people miss out on. And we can have it all. Yeah. It is a lot of work. And it's also no sleep. And no sleep and it's hard. Which is a bummer. Yeah. But. Because apparently I need sleep. Yeah. So do I. But you'll figure it out. But congratulations. Really cool. Well done. I say they take a drag of my vape. Yeah. Vap it up. Oh my God. I mean, let me just exhale with VAP and I'll give you my final sweet, real reaction to what you just said. Because sometimes when people are paying me compliments, I get really uncomfortable. And it's the only time I've been uncomfortable in this whole podcast is just now as you were

saying really great things about me. So received. Thank you. Joel, thank you for, I don't know, creating a place to bear witness to someone who's as crazy as you. Yeah. Eric was right about you. Yeah, I think he might have been. I hope so.

I'm going to stick around. Even when he turns 157, he's still going to be a 14-year-old. kid. So thank you for sharing your history. I'm sorry that you couldn't steal him away and marry him. I would have. You found a pretty good guy. I did all right. You did. You did great. You did great. I'm happy. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support. And we'll see you next time.

Thank you.