Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Griff

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Griff. Griff is a U.K. singer-songwriter who cites Jack Antonoff, Imogen Heap, and James Blake as influences. She played only one show supporting her 2019 EP, Mirror Talk, then created the 2021 LP One Foot In Front of The Other in her bedroom during pandemic lockdowns, which shot her to fame. Now, she’s readying the release of her latest single, “miss me too,” which was written in between tours. “I booked a little Airbnb and sent my location to Lostboy and Siba, who I co-wrote ‘Black Hole’ with,” she says. “We converted the living room of the cottage into a studio and wrote ‘miss me too.’ I had been trying to write a song for a while about losing yourself, and missing a past version of yourself that wasn’t so broken.” ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden and this is artist friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to singer, songwriter, and producer Griff. Let's go. I don't want to bad times. I don't want to have bad. Sometimes it's like there's not enough space for a conversation to breathe a little bit. And like what I think is interesting is like if we met at a festival.

Yeah. And we were both playing, we would likely have this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. If we got the time. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And, like, I think artists have a lot to share.

And the people listening are likely either aspiring artists, artists themselves, or people trying to do things in the world. I think that artists, we have one of the hardest paths to success. It's so hard. Yeah. You know, it just is. Yeah. You're like, make it.

Yeah, I know. And then when you make it, it's kind of like one of those, you're one of one. Yeah, yeah. Even though it feels like there's tons of artists out there, there's way more people trying to be artists, trying to make it than people succeeding at it. Yeah, yeah. And that's just the reality of how hard it is to make it with art. I know.

Because when did you start? Sorry, I know this is supposed to be. No, no, this is the vibe. I started in 1996. Wow. 95. Yeah. But I started my band in 96.

Yeah. And then started my, what I would say is like the second chapter of my career has been like building music focused companies. Okay, yeah. So we have a music company, we have a music media company. So we have a few businesses that are all around music. That was in like 2014. Okay, okay. So I kind of stopped touring the way we were for so many years and started like focusing on

Yeah, I see. working with artists. Yeah, I see. Which I really enjoy. Yeah, definitely a different landscape now. Yeah. But you know, for me it was more like I got, I had kids. How many do you have? I have two kids, 14 and 16. Damn, you're nearly there. Yeah. You got like four more years and then you can, oh yeah. And I saw, I think from like zero to five I was still touring and it was really hard to like create like a family, a functional family that like, like, felt like it was better for them. And I didn't have like a real solid familial foundation.

So I was like, I'm only really going to get to do this once in life to try to be a good dad, build a family type thing. Not to say you can't do that on the road. I couldn't. I don't know. It's hard. It's too conflicted. I think now the whole you can have everything thing is like nice.

And I like the ambition of it. But there is also just like real sacrifice to it. Real sacrifice. I miss things like first steps. in first words. Yeah. And I was like, I can't get that back. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that I can be there for.

So that was the whole shift was just like, let's go, try to be in one place and build a life there. Because you know how it is. You have to tour. Yeah. Yeah. If you really want to make it with this, you've got to be all in. Yeah. And it's a real sacrifice.

Yeah. Yeah. Because how many years of touring would that have been for you? 15 years. That's mental. And you know, like back then when it was in the late 90s, things didn't travel. So it wasn't like social media, everyone saw what you were doing. So you were just touring all the time.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. You really couldn't be in a few places at once. You couldn't take content, distribute it out. But still even now, you still have to tour like that. That's just how it is. You just have to, it's a sacrifice. Yeah.

How many birthdays have you missed? Too many. Your friends. How many weddings? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like you just miss everything. I know.

You're just gone. I know. It's mad. Where should we start? I don't know. With you. Do you want to start where you started? How old are you?

23. Just turned 23. Very young. Thanks. It feels like I'm getting on in pop terms. But yeah. Listen, in the music business, if you say, oh, very young, you're like a 16-year-old pop star. Yeah.

But that to me is like very dangerous. When you think about it, if you said, oh, the music I was making when I was 16, that's not the music you want everyone to like get to know you for now yeah it's true so the the the the pop success is dangerous sometimes yeah it's true when you get older and you're like i wish everyone would just listen to what i'm making now because yeah fucking seasoned and i have yeah but 23 is still super young to have accomplished what you have thanks because think about it i mean i meet 23 year olds 23 year olds all the time that are still trying to figure out

what they want to do and they went to college and maybe they thought they had a plan. Yeah. When I hear your music it feels very focused it feels very definite.

That's cool to hear. You know? Thank you. Yeah. I like that. I was listening to Astronaut. Oh yeah. I love it.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Like made me teary. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm really proud of how that one came out. I could have an hour-long conversation. about that song.

We can do that. I don't want to get into it yet because I went on a whole, my mind was going on that. Yeah. Because I was thinking about relationships when I was listening to that song. Is it about a relationship? Yeah. Yeah. Feels like that.

And I was thinking like, does anyone get out of a relationship without getting hurt ever? And yeah, probably, no, I don't think it's possible. I just think it's just human nature. Yeah. I think it's part of what comes with the deal, yeah. That's what that was making me think. about yeah that's cool yeah i like that song because it's i try and not write too specifically about romance either i think it can to me that song can be both like platonic romantic about family you know

any relationship that's what i'm saying yeah exactly it's like is there any relationship in your life that you have that doesn't come with pain no no it doesn't matter who it doesn't matter how close you are with your mom or your dad or your friend or or you you know you fall in love with someone or you build a life with someone. Yeah. They all just come with layers and layers of different kinds of emotional. Yeah. Because there's give and take and either can hurt at different stages for sure.

Growth is pain. Yeah. You can be in a long relationship. It still can be painful. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's so complex.

Yeah, I know. Every day I guess a relationship is like showing up and choosing someone. And in doing that, there's, yeah. But even like that song when I was listening to it, I was thinking with Astero's not you could be talking about a relationship you're still in yeah you could be talking about a moment in the relationship you could be talking there's so many ways you could take that yeah and apply it to the way you feel sometimes in a relationship definitely um and in any relationship it's really crazy I was I was listening to that it hit me that song hit me felt like you really you really

captured a feeling that everybody feels at some point in every relationship that's so cool to hear great that's the aim that's the aim that's the aim when I write songs, you know, that everyone can kind of listen and relate. How'd you write it? I was by myself in the English countryside in between touring, in this kind of log cabin thing. And I started writing it on piano, and I had that lyric just kind of came to me, the chorus lyric of you said you needed space gone and astronaut.

And then I guess, I guess I've always been a bit afraid of ballads, because in my head, the greatest ballads are so hard to, like, compete with. So my natural instinct is to then produce it up and like put loads of production around it. And so the version that lived that I had for a while and was going to put out is a very different version. It was like heavy drums and spacey synths and stuff. And then it was when I toured with Coldplay and I played it to Chris Martin and then he was like, you should strip that one back and slow it down. And I think what happens especially with me and when I'm doing the production and the writing as well,

when I live with the song for so long, you just add and add and add and you almost over-wreck the pudding. and I think, thank God that that's what Chris heard with it. And then I just kind of asked if you wouldn't mind helping me finish it off and play the piano. And I think he definitely has a very charisma and flair of playing the piano, which is beautiful and I think really suited the song. Yeah, he's got like a feel. He does, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what happened. It's great. Thanks. It's hard to get that. It's hard to get ballads. And you got it on that. It's really hard.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, my favorite ballads from like, you know, Adele to Sam to Ed, you know, like, it's the best. So I think that's why I've always, I think my initial instinct was not to keep it on piano because it's easier to hide in other gimmicks and things. But yeah. Yeah, sometimes those gimmicks are fun too, like in the right spots. Totally. But like that song, I fucking love it, man. I love it.

I really think that like also you can let that one go. Yeah. You can just let it live. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that's when you get a recording like that where you have a song that like doesn't matter what year it is.

It doesn't matter. Just let it live. Yeah. Because those are the songs that find their way in really cool ways. Yeah. Like of course you can promote it. You can do what you can do to push it out to the world. But I would say like those are ones you can trust.

That's cool to hear. Let it live. When songs have been such like a labor of love and they're so close to your heart, you feel you always feel like have I done enough to put it out there in the world and I guess actually Chris said something very similar when we were writing it was like good music will just find its way so let it live it'll be okay yeah it'll surprise you yeah I hope so yeah we also live in a real instant gratification time almost like we put something out and then we start watching the metrics yeah I know and it's like watching fucking paint dry or water drop in a bucket I know it's crazy it'll drive you nuts yeah it does

Well, some songs feel like you have to because they're like, again, like there's, there may be like a, what feels like a time sensitive gimmick. Yeah, yeah, it has to be now. I don't want to say a gimmick in a bad way. No, there's a time and place. And then there's sometimes just a song that you just put out, let it live. And it might be 10 years from now or it might be 20 years or it might be two years or it might be two months. Yeah. You can count on it living and breathing.

Yeah, those ones just require patience and peace with whatever they do, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like hippie-dippy. No, I think it's good. It's true. Because right now, especially in the pop sphere, you are so chasing the language around everything that it is to be a new artist right now is so. It's hard.

It's so counter what you're saying. It's like, what are the stats now and how are we growing now? And yeah, it's a lot. How do you like manage that? I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. I don't know if I'm managing it very well. I guess I have to, I'm so grateful that I am so close and first and foremost a songwriter. Yeah. Because I think it means that I can actually, I actually don't have it in my like, I don't have it in me to be the stat influencer kid.

Yeah. So, you know, even at my best, I can't, you know, you'd have to look somewhere else or sign something else if you really really. want that. So I think I think probably in my bones I actually just can't can't be your internet kid that you need me to be. So I think that's probably how I manage it. It's like well, there's only so far we can go here in terms of like chasing something viral because what I do is write songs. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's still hard. It's hard. Yeah, it's really hard. It's overwhelming. It's the pressure now, you know, and it's like, yeah, it's like no one knows how to define success now either. it's like is it i feel like the modern music career or what it means to have or to choose this as a

lifestyle and a job it culturally kind of like ebbs and flows and changes so i've seen like you know when streaming came along yeah that must have been mad for you guys crazy yeah it was like everything died you up for it or were you like what the fuck is this that's a good question yeah i don't know if i was emotionally equipped to think, I feel like I was at a different time emotionally, like with my own, like, personal growth. And so I think like, I just remember being like everyone said that like the world was ending. And I think we're raised as a species to think of like doom and gloom as like everyone's always been fascinated with like the end of the world.

So I think we all have a core belief in us that it's possible. Yeah. but the world's going to end yeah and it's it's not i know we love catastrophize right because we catastrophize everything and everything so when you're predisposed for this idea that that the world can end and that things end abruptly and that it's like and that it's not a cause and effect world and that also that we don't just soldier on and life goes on yeah so when it was all happening at the time and everyone was like music industry's dead yeah we felt it too like Like everything just went like over a short period of time.

Everything just went. Yeah, I imagine so. And then social media comes and there's this new crop of people speaking to the world. And you're like, how do I do that? What do I do there? Yeah. Were you angry at the new kids coming through like on social media and stuff? Or was it like they still can't tour like us?

Like, you know, her tickets and everything is still where the power is. Like did it feel like a power shift or no? I wasn't in a place where I felt powerful. Really? So I didn't feel like, I've always been curious and interested in people. And so when someone knew comes along, I was more likely to be like, oh, wow, that's cool. I wonder if I could do that. That's cool.

You know what I mean? I've never felt like I sat in a position where I thought I was the one. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I always felt like I was participating in like a theme park. That's cool.

And it was a big fun world full of like different kinds of. rides you know and everyone had their own that's a great way of looking at it I guess being in a band is also a good way of keeping that headspace yeah you're in with all these other people and there's there's a lot of people you it's like a marriage with five people yeah and everyone has equity so they're all so at the time when the music industry really changed over it was like 2010 11 12 yeah 13 those years yeah and before that was like the early days of streaming but when it really just all went there and it felt like it felt like everything was dead. You really did at the time. You kind of felt like and you were told that too. So it felt like is this the end? But that kind of

them was like coming to the end for you because that was when you said you moved on to doing more business stuff. That was part of it. Yeah. Probably. Maybe yeah. But the real music cuts through when I heard your music I was like, oh, a songwriter. Good. I like that. You can hear this songwriting in there. I can hear the musicality of it. Great. Thank you. It's hard to fake that. Can't do that. Thanks. I'm glad you can hear that. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's nice to hear. So I think it might take a look. It's, it's, it can feel like a longer war winding road, but it's worth going on. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think, I think it's, it's really worthwhile, what you're doing, what you're, what you're, what the music you're putting. out and what you're doing is it's a it's a good path okay i'll stay on it you know yeah yeah thanks

we just think about cold play you obviously like cold play yeah i mean cold play like this huge thing that is so big and have soundtracked our lives that it's almost like i don't know i don't i don't think i was i feel like we're all subconscious fans yeah and then you only go it's only when you go to the show and you go oh my god there are so many songs here yeah and you're like these guys are in insane. Yeah, it's the best show I've ever been to because you see humanity on that scale experiencing so much joy and I think it is like it's the most powerful. You can see it's the most powerful two hours that everyone in that room is experiencing and has experience for a really long time because like collective joy on that scale is so hard to find and see.

So yeah, it was a real like privilege to be a part of it for like a month or two. It's like those moments when you realize like when the songs are all put together. Yeah. And you realize how many moments of our collective lives we've shared in different ways with these songs. Yeah. And then you also realize like a really good song, a guy could sit down at a piano and sing the song, regardless of how it was recorded. Exactly. Yeah. To me, that's a through line through all music for a good song. Yeah, I agree. Someone could be in a hotel lobby playing a song, you know, and it's nice. I agree. Whether the version of the song, whatever, but like you can hear it and just, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's nice. It's nice. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's, it's. It's. It's It's soothing because there's these songs that live throughout time.

Yeah. We don't even remember which Coldplay song was the biggest. No, exactly, yeah. Or which moment of our life that song was around living in the ethos. Yeah. It's like a soothing old friend. Exactly. And it's these like really universal melodies.

And actually their lyrics are quite unconventional. But it's only when you zoom in also to some of the things Chris writes and you're like, that's wild. Yeah. Like, what is he talking about in Viva La Vida? Like, here, Jerusalem bells are ringing. Like, it's... But the melody is almost just so euphoric and, like, universal that they just feel right and classic,

which is a hard thing to do. If you look out there and you see, like, a career that you love, who would you say has, like, from the outside a career that you really, like, admire that if you could, in some way, shape or form have a similar path? Who would that be? Oh, that's hard. I think Lord right now is doing something really cool where it's like she walks the line of pop

in such a beautiful way. And it's such a cult following and almost, yeah, doesn't have to really tap into all of the like fads of now because it's just like it's Lord. Like I think Frank Ocean seems to have the most ideal life. It's like he can just come in and come out again with demand never leaving.

That to me seems super ideal. And obviously I admire my Taylor and her career just in how consistent she's been and how she's managed to reach such scale over and over again and also stay so close to the songwriting process. But I also look at the size of her career now and I'm like, wow, girl, that's a lot. The special person that can handle that. That's a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm trying to think who else I really. I'm a big Taylor fan. Yeah. you big swiftly yeah yeah she's i just love what she i like how fearless she is and how she rolls she's just fucking doing it she is yeah and she's bet it feels like someone who who truly just bets on themselves 100% yeah um i i think of adele yeah yeah i agree like she's had yeah totally just like real like from the heart songs that just from the heart true artist

Yeah. Does what she feels. Yeah. When she feels it and she's patient. Yeah. She'll wait until she feels like it's right. Yeah. Like it feels very true.

Yeah. You know, as big as she is, it doesn't feel like that's the thing she's trying to maintain. No. It feels like she's searching for the next record. Yeah, exactly. And when that's where it becomes. When you can, when you can, when you can, when you can hold what's the what's the word when you can resist the pressure of the size yeah and stay

focused on the art is when I think you can stay yeah an artist that's true and that's really hard it's really hard and I think you also earn your your right to get to that point to be able to disappear and then come back it's like feeling it yeah it's like it's like it's like it's funny because I guess from the outside, I'll probably look at all of those artists and go like, wow, you guys can just come in and come out when the art is ready and go and back yourselves 100%. But I'm sure when you zoom in that there were a lot of early years of hustle weight. Yeah, I guess they've earned that right to be able to do that, which is cool. Yeah, I think it's something like you work so hard to get noticed.

Yeah. And then you work so hard to have success. Yeah. And then you're battling against fear the whole time. Like, will this just go away? Because it does feel like magic. Yeah, 100%. It's not magic.

No, it does. It's trying, trying, trying. Yeah. But it can feel like, is this just going to be gone? Especially with music, because music is like not tangible. Yeah. So it's like we're all revolving around this product that is not even a physical, tangible thing. It's just like, you know, it didn't, the song didn't exist two hours ago.

Now I've made a song. And now that song could be the one. Like, we're chasing. after this such an intangible thing so it really does feel like magic in a way yeah yeah like let's say adele when you get to the size of those records and the all around the world people to have to hold out that pressure so that you can go and make another record that you love yeah that you want to share with people yeah that to me is like if an artist can do that that's what i think she does yeah i think she i think she's with each record because i'm a huge fan of adele

I think she pushes back all of that pressure of being Adele and makes a record, sits down and writes a song and digs and it isn't done until it's done. Yeah, I agree. You know? I agree, which I guess when you admire, and I've grown up on artists like Adele, to me that was always how it was. To me, it was like that was a given. And then it was just funny, I guess, coming into this and almost starting to write my first album now and stuff and being like, oh, no. To me, it was always like, yeah, when it's ready, you'll be ready. But there are so many other factors where everyone's like,

yoo-hoo, come now, like now. And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, there's a real treadmill that you're having to find. Or you get a great song and everyone's like, let's go. Yeah, you're like, oh, no, but it's not ready yet. The body of work isn't complete. Yeah, exactly. I think that's something to look at. Yeah.

And maybe you'll never feel like it's, you know, as an artist, you'll always, if you stare too long, you'll start to rip it apart. but like there's a feeling of like I think this is done yeah I think I think that's really hard to do yeah really hard yeah but you strike me as one of those when I hear your music it strikes me as like art artistic songwriting like I said I don't think there's a time clock ticking especially when you're putting out songs like astronaut I think it's like trust that yeah yeah totally yeah I'll try it's it's hard it's like a daily thing isn't it to know yeah no one to holiday out, no one something's finished.

Like, it's basically all an exercise of, like, understanding your own gut. And, like, it's a tricky thing to learn. But, yeah. It is. It's crazy. Yeah. When did you start? I probably started writing songs around, like, 12-ish.

I always loved music. Grew up in church. And then, yeah, I think I started, like, teaching myself how to produce kind of when I was, like, maybe, yeah, 14, 15. You started producing? Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah.

I well made my dad got my brother logic and so I'd just jump on it when he wasn't using it and try and produce my own songs and I just love the idea that I could yeah bounce out a song and listen to it on my way to school and then go home and work on it and realize the snare was too loud and like that was a really fun process for me that's my favorite part yeah so good listening to the song when it's done yeah there was so much joy in that and it was only it was really only for me and like between me and my own headphones um so I did that for like pretty much a of my like secondary school, what we would call secondary school years. Yeah, making music. Did you grow up in London? Just outside, like a tiny suburb, just outside. So it's very much so countryside village. There's like 5,000 people in my village. It's not a lot. Okay. That's like where I grew up. Yeah, exactly. So it was definitely very, yeah, quiet and quintessentially British and, yeah, country. Lovely British countryside. Lovely British country. Where near? Like, what's it called? It's called? It's called. It's called. Kings Langley, it's nearest town as Watford and Watford's nearest, yeah, Watford's maybe like

40 minutes drive into London. Okay. Yeah, just outside the M25, the big motorway. Yeah. And your parents were like musical? Mom, no. Um, dad musical. Never, never pursued it, like, as a career. Right. But like very much, he, dad's Jamaican very much to grow up and like, um, Brixton, like South London, West Indian scene, which was so much about music. And yeah, he's got an amazing voice. I mean, he's an amazing gospel singer, but only ever sung in church and didn't really pursue it. He works in like IT now.

But I guess that was probably the foundations for there being so much music in the house. It's funny how a lot of musicians grow up singing like in church. Yeah. It was the same like I was around. I went to church a lot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the first guitar and bass that me and my brother got were a guy in church

from like the musical whatever gave them to us yeah i don't know i think there's something i do think there's something i think there's a few reasons for that like i think there's something just about practically hearing music every week and being exposed to live music all the time um i think there's something about a community experiencing music on a spiritual level which i think plants seeds in a lot of kids and creatives and then on maybe a fluffier deeper level i think the church and and and If God is our creator and as an ultimate, that he is the ultimate creator, then creativity should flow from that.

And so I think there may be is something divine in the fact that the church has planted seeds of so many creatives and musicians. So, yeah, that's my theory. I think, like, half of all musicians started somewhere in like a religious space. Definitely. And I think those who probably haven't

have been impacted without even realizing it. Yeah. So, yeah, it's interesting. So I think religion gets miskind of construed or something. And it's not in an intentional way where I think people are people, right? So no matter any of our intentions, like going back to like, in no relationship is without pain, including the relationship you have with any group of people, any, wherever you're interfacing with people on a deeper level and building relationships, there's going to be misunderstandings and there's going to be miscommunication and there's going to be

some kind of pain right and so i think in faith we're like following we're trying to follow god or of a higher power but we tend to end up following people and then that's where it gets broken because exactly people we disappoint one another yeah um inevitably a messy affair yeah if you take that away though and you go like okay the the basis of faith is like this optimistic view of the future There's a lot of good things there. And then when you bring music in, because it's such a core part of that experience, it makes sense to me that artists would be born out of that. Because I find most artists, even though we may struggle with our interpersonal relationship with ourselves.

Or, you know, like artists, we can be mooney and we can be emotional and we can be all the things. We're optimistic people. Yeah. We're aiming up. We're making art and looking upwards, trying to make the world a prettier place. So definitely a better place. Definitely. When there's a problem in the world, artists come and they all try to.

Definitely. I was watching that documentary, the We Are the World documentary. I've been told I need to watch this. So good. It's only just come out, right? Just came out. It's on Netflix. I need to watch it, yeah.

It's like a 24-hour peek into that real moment. Yeah. When all these incredible artists came together. Yeah, insane. And they were all, it was all like very last minute thrown together. They all just showed up. Yeah. It's amazing.

But then seeing that, getting, a glimpse into that real life, all these artists are together. You see what artists really are. Definitely, yeah. And it's like a bunch of kids. Yeah. Having fun. And trying to make the world a better place. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And yeah, there's so much, I think, power in numbers as well. What kind of music did you grow up with outside of church? You said your dad's Jamaican, a lot of reggae and stuff? No, he hated reggae. My dad always says, I don't know whether, this is what my dad says he's like with with like definitely in that scene um with Jamaicans especially in London there was kind of a choice whether to go whether you were like a reggae head or whether you were

like a soul and like a soul train head and I don't know right I don't know if other uh if ever everyone else would say that is the way it is but that's always what my dad said to me and he was like I think also he grew up on reggae and maybe that was his church music that was his church music exactly and I think he he he was all regained out by the time he had me so I think he was all reggaeed out by the time he had me. So I think it was, what spoke to him was like soul and R&B. And so that's kind of what was like, good soul in England, like that northern soul. Yeah. There's such good soul music. Yeah. So he, he, he, he only had like a few CDs lying around, but it was a mix of like, you know, Stevie Wonder. And I had like a Whitney Houston CD that I loved. I love Whitney Houston.

But then there was also gospel like Kirk Franklin and Mary Mary. Wow. Michael Jackson was very big to my dad. So yeah. Yeah, it's a mix. I grew up with Stevie Wonder too. Yeah. And I love Whitney. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you got a real kind of R&B and soul. Yeah. But good pop. Good pop still. Yeah. I think without realizing it, I'd always resonate with the most poppy bits as well. Yeah. So yeah, that was kind of what I was growing up around. Yeah. Do you live in London now? Yeah, I just moved in. That's good. Yeah. Do you like it? Yeah, I love it. I always wanted to because where I grew up was so, it was so small town. And then it was only when I, it was small things like just getting on the tube, I realized

like, oh, there are people that look like me. And this is a whole different universe suddenly just stepping on a train. I ended a whole new world, which was London. And that was really inspiring for me. So, yeah, I've been wanting to move in for a very long time. So as opposed to where you lived, was it not as? Super white. Yeah.

Right. Super white. Yeah. We stood out like a sore thumb. Yeah. I mean, it's rare that you ever even see, like, I mean, now I guess it's getting more multicultural, but especially, I don't know why I'm saying back then, like I'm an old woman, but. But it's kind of back then.

Back then, yeah, especially for my parents' generation. Early 2000s? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Late 90s? Early 2000s, yeah. But even for my parents when they were getting together, like to see a Jamaican and a Chinese woman together was pretty unheard of. So then taking that and plopping it in a very, very white middle class village was like, it's a funny sight, yeah.

Yeah. What's that like growing up? I don't know. You don't know any different, do you? So it's funny almost reflecting on it now, but growing up, I guess I guess I just was very used to, I didn't know anything else but being very different and being completely on the outside. And I think, also I think the mixed race experience is, it's quite a universal thing where you

don't belong in any group either. So I think if I was to summarize it, it's probably that we were always just very, very, very different and so I was just very used to that feeling of never quite fitting in in any way yeah whether that was just cultural the way mom disciplined us beauty you know standards right the whole the whole shebang it was just like okay well I don't fit into any anything so you'd go to school and very much so just like play along but you knew that you weren't really you couldn't really yeah fit into to what all the other kids were how they were growing up so yeah but this is the

interesting thing. This is why I think about it because you're an artist and you've you've got this you've you've had this experience where you've become you. You were always you but you grew into this it feels like anyways someone who like knows themselves they're writing songs they're putting it out you to put your art out into the world takes a lot of self-confidence regardless of you have to force yourself almost to be confident enough. I think So I don't know. I think about it now and I'm like, some days I'm like, yeah, it's self-confidence. And some days I'm like, and it's kind of what you were talking about. It's like, or is it just a whole, you know, 20-something years worth of really wanting approval? And that maybe it's how it's all formed into this weird career that I'm pursuing where it's like, yeah, I'm super confident in my ideas. But also that maybe there's a fraction of me that will always really want a sense of approval because that that was something that I craved and could never ever satisfy. I don't know. I'd have to speak to a psychologist about it. But it's all the things that make you, you that are why you're, why you stand out in the world and why you, it feels like it's special.

Right. When you tell me about your family, I'm like, oh, that's cool. Yeah. But growing up, I could see how. Yeah, it was not cool. I mean, there was so many layers to it. It was the cultural thing. It was the Christian thing. That was not cool. Right. And then we started fostering. And then that was not that wasn't cool. But then that was also chaos because it's like, okay, now. my family really does not look like everyone else is. So your parents fostered kids? Yeah, so from about eight years old, different kids in care came to live with us. Wow. Yeah, our family really did not look like a postcard.

Yeah. And that comes with a whole lot of different challenges, right? Yeah, definitely. It was fun. It was like, I mean, we still do it. It's a lively household. How many kids would you say your parents fostered over the course of your life? Definitely 20 plus 20 to 30 kids.

That's a lot. A lot of kids, yeah, definitely. And they'd stay for different amounts of time. But a lot of them for a year plus, three years for some, four years for some. So, yeah. That's like really God's work. Yeah, yeah. Mum's really the good, faithful steward.

Yeah. Yeah. The big deal. Yeah, I think she had through a revelation that that was her kind of, her God nudge that she. Her calling. Yeah, I can't remember what scripture it is. but it's like that we need to, you know, love, you know, the orphans and take in the fatherless. Yeah.

So that was kind of her real conviction, right at all. That's amazing. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Was that a big responsibility on you? Are you the- I think I'm the youngest. You're the youngest.

But I'm the only girl. So, yeah, I think it was without realizing it. How many siblings do you have? I've got two older brothers. Okay. So then I'm the youngest girl and then foster kids came in. Yeah, yeah, I think it did feel like a responsibility. I felt the responsibility to, like, help mom as well, because her plate was full.

So I think I did step up to the big sister. Also, being the girl, you do just grow up. You're mentally a bit more emotionally aware than the boys. So I think there was a sense of, like, stepping up and, like, looking after the kids. Yeah, exactly. And because there was so much a mom's plate at that time, you do just pick up where things need to be picked up. You know, so it's like you just fend for yourself, I think, a bit earlier. But you're not a selfish person.

Yeah, I mean, we all are, but I don't come across it. I don't think you could possibly be. Yeah. Whether you want to be or not, if you're living in an environment where over time you're a being of service to people, regardless of like if you're helping with this or that, you're helping somewhere because you're functioning in a family. If you actually doesn't matter, every family, everyone has their function in the, if you're really together and you're a family and you're in a house together.

It's true. No, yeah. You can't afford. Yeah, you can't afford to be in. individualistic at all, which is why actually I think that I sometimes struggle with the artist thing. And I always gravitated more towards the idea of being a songwriter. I always thought I'd just write songs. But not put yourself out there as an artist.

No, I always loved the idea of, well, I don't know, it's funny because I love Julia Michaels and Sia. And I guess the thing in common is that they really started their careers and service to other people. And then to me, it looked like there were the odd songs that they would just sing and put them out and they were successful. but really their identity was being a songwriter and I always thought that was what I would first and foremost do. But I guess it hasn't happened that way yet. I think it's too early to call. Yeah.

I think that you're, I see your music from my, I feel like I'm a pretty good. My experience gives me kind of a different view, but I'm pretty good at like looking at artists and saying you're going to be a star. See, well, you know what? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, go on. Yeah. No, I think it's more like identifying real talent.

People who are talented. Because there's a lot of ways we can get there. We don't have to have the talent as a songwriter. Yeah. We can have songwriters. Yeah, totally. We don't have to have talent as a performer. If we're not a good performer, there's other ways to put together your, you know,

how you present the music. And then you go see someone live and it's not great because they haven't put the time in or whatever. When you sat at the piano and you sang a song Hundreds of times, thousand times You're going to be able to do that in front of people If you want to Yeah, I suppose, yeah, it's true

So that's the gut check as do I want to Yeah And then go do it Yeah Especially if you wrote the song If you sat down at the piano And you wrote the song There's connectivity there that you can't buy that

Totally, yeah But talent is a real thing It's what is someone's talent Some people just their talent is being charismatic magnetic stars. You just can't, when they walk in the room, you're like, who's that? Yeah, definitely. There's something about, you know.

So there's all these different aspects of what does it mean to be an artist and then a star for lack of the better, you know, like someone that we all want to watch. Yeah, yeah. It's really cool and interesting to hear how you grew up because then it makes sense to me that I would listen to that song and feel some depth. Yeah. And then also someone who's had to go through life and figure out how to be themselves against the odds of this larger group.

I guess so, yeah. Right? Yeah, exactly. And you could say statistically we're all against some odds in some way, shape, or form, right? I always try to pull out things that help people kind of like do more of that, learn how to be yourself. You only get to be you. You don't get to be, you know, that's the thing is I don't get to be Chris Martin.

I wish I wrote those songs. Oh, I know. Wouldn't it be good? God, it looks fun. It looks like that. Like a great time. That career looks amazing to me. Yeah, I know.

And I look around at all these careers, especially at Grammy time, right? It's such an interesting time. I know. I know. Being here around the Grammys really makes yourself reflect. It's all kinds of things. It's really great when you watch and you're like, that's aspirational. And then part of it's kind of dark.

Yes, it's so much mixed up. I couldn't watch it. I'm such a loser. I know. I know. I can watch it on TV. Yeah, like it's hard for artists to sit because we all want to be at the party. At the core, I think we do.

Yeah, 100%. I think we all want to be on stage and sing our song. But I kind of like analyze always. I'm just analyzing like, how does that feel? What does that feel like? And then how to, I wonder how everyone else is feeling and I wonder how it feels to be them. And I think about like careers, right?

You see all these amazing careers and it's inspirational. That's why we started. we saw it and we're like I think I could do that yeah the key though is for everyone whether it's it's you and your music career me and my career or someone listening who's starting a t-shirt company is you have to follow your real feelings and you only get to be you so you don't get to have anyone else's career yeah you can only kind of aspire to that size or something or you know the metrics for success we look at yeah but like the real real you know the real Real power is learning how to do what you do and be the best at doing what you do, which is you.

Yeah. Which is why it's so important that you're from where you're from, your family, like growing up with your parents in a house fostering kids. That's crazy to me. Yeah. In like a great way. Yeah, yeah. Because I can only imagine the amount, what you don't even think about it. The amount of problems, challenges, emotions, emotions.

emotions, life moments, real life moments where you can feel that you're alive. Yeah, definitely. Or that someone's in pain or someone's happy or some, all the spectrum of things you could feel when you're in a large group of people that are all having their own experience and sharing it together. Yeah. You'll write songs forever. So I'm gonna, and like my music, my hair can't change with me and has to be

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Because it's such a deep well. I think so. Yeah, definitely. High threshold of pain

definitely growing up. But in a good way, yeah. Well, that's also why I think a lot of artists we come from poverty. Yeah. So that was probably my biggest challenge was money always. $20 felt like impossible. Yeah, yeah.

So there was a deep need. But then it's also my, that could be my weakness too. It could be my strength that I come from that and then I made it out. But it could also be my weakness because I can behave still like I need. Yeah. And that's the thing I have to watch out for. Yeah, interesting. If all of this pain births really good artists, then like what does that then look like for us in letting ourselves also be happy and stuff?

Then does suddenly the art become less exciting? And can you, do we allow ourselves that or do we just, you know, self-employed for the sake of digging deeper? Everybody asks that. Every artist, nine out of ten artists I talk to you go, I'm worried that if I'm happy, I won't be able to make. Yeah. Good art. I think that's a lie. You do.

I do. I think that artists have the ability to feel in touch with the emotion. Yeah. So because we come from a lot of places of pain, that's the one we know. Yeah. I think that joy, happiness, contentment are new experiences for a lot of artists. And I think that's why a lot of artists do drugs. This is what I think.

Tell me. I could be wrong. I think they struggle to be happy. because they fear what happiness, that happiness comes with almost like a loss of talent. I worry that it comes with complacency. Or complacency, like the need that I feel. Yeah.

But I don't think that's true. I think that you have to give yourself the opportunity to build a relationship with contentment, joy, happiness, the same way you have a relationship with sadness, loss, all the things and I think that that will open up a new room in the house that like your art has never been in before and I think that you have to give yourself like that's why I think time and space are and living your real life and making the music and the art in relationship to that are important but it's part of being like a artist yeah I think just feeling deeply and

coming from any kind of like you absolutely have a role relationship with suffering and pain if you were fostering kids because they all come from pain. Yeah. That's crazy to me. That to me is like the most interesting thing is like, wow. So you as a kid had to share people's pain and they're suffering and you had to empathize. Big time, big time, especially when you go to share your own mom, you know. Yeah.

And you're supporting your mom in her mission. Yeah. And your dad, you're watching all these people take on this work that is selfless and important. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it was interesting. That's crazy. I know. When you're a kid, you just put, that's also the beauty of kids as well.

They're so robust. You learn that with fostering. And I guess I see that in myself and in all the kids that come. That doesn't matter how, like, yeah, how much pain there has been that you become such as, kids are such a sponge to love and stability. that once that's there, you do just get on with it and they find, they bounce back very quickly. And I probably see that myself and in the kids who looked after. That's very English to, to, uh, what?

There's like a very English thing about like, bounce back. Come on. Let's go. Come on. No time for mess. No time for inconvenience. Yeah. It's strong.

Yeah. Keep up appearances. No, no. There wasn't so much sense. But that, yeah, I guess that is quite a British thing. but also very like I guess also life you have to life yeah I think also from again this is becoming all about my childhood but yeah my my mom and I guess her upbringing with with being an immigrant the Vietnamese war everything it's like she jumped classes and so I guess I also saw that but it was just

like you just keep going you survive you know there's a lot of layers that's cool yeah that's cool there is something about success though about the people who can get back up fastest yeah tend to succeed. Yeah. People who can recover quickly. Yeah, definitely. I think about that a lot. I got better at that in my 30s.

Yeah. And moving through things quickly. Yeah. And what could be perceived as failures aren't really, it's just information. I like that. And kind of moving quickly through it. Yeah, I like that. Taking the information in, filing it in the either we deal with it now or we'll deal with

it later. 100%. Maybe this is good. We'll see. Yeah. And kind of just getting back up quick. Yeah. There's something about that.

Definitely. There's like a resilience about it. When are you going to be done the record? When's it done? Yeah. Is it done now? I'm handing in like kind of, I don't know, I keep pushing the deadline, but it's being done now. Feels done?

Pretty much. Yeah. It's done, yeah. Feel good about it? I don't know. Yeah, I do. I do. I feel like I've lived with it for a long time.

It's been a really hard, it's been a harder process than I ever thought it would be. I'm excited almost to make the next one because I think I've learned a lot in this process but yeah it feels it feels good it feels done did you collaborate with anyone I did I mean a very small amount of people there's Lost Boy who's a producer in London and a guy called Siba who I wrote Black Hole with

I produced called Conjie who I wrote Walk with that's pretty much it I mean I don't know when this is coming out but I'll say it, Muramasa produced on one of the songs, which is a real dream come true. Yeah. You feel right, though? Say that again? Does it feel right?

Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. It feels like, I mean, the process of it was just so interesting because I'd never written an album. And then, all I know how to write a lot of songs, but then also going on the road was like, from COVID, going on the road was a real, real, like, gear shift for me. Yeah.

And I know what it is to, like, just find my corner of, the room and write my own song in solitude and I've done that for years but then being on the road is like a different muscle that I was suddenly taken away from that process and so I had a lot of these start unfinished ideas that like before you knew I had like a hundred in this like jobbox folder of just like ideas that were never finished chorus yeah you know how it is and I think in this process I really those are great those are great but then you get you get lost in like how to choose because everything has potential yeah if you give it the right amount of hours and And so this was a real exercise of just like, yeah, kind of separating the wheat from the chaff and figuring that out and and letting in the right opinions and essentially leaning on my own and and building record from there.

So yeah. Exciting. I think so. Are you going on tour now? Yeah. So it's weird. I've done a lot of touring, but not a lot of my own touring. So my actual first European tour in March.

That's great. And then from there, I'm pretty sure I'm doing more touring that I should know about. That's how it is. It'll come. Yeah. That's how it is. Just focus on the week. And then, you know.

Our first tours, I mean in the 90s, but we were opening for anyone. Yeah, what are you? Anyone. That's cool. And I remember, like, all of our first tours were just opening, opening, opening. Did you like that? Did you mind it? At the time, I loved it.

Yeah. Because no one knew who we were. So we were just. Yeah, there's a fun, there's a funness about opening because the pressure is kind of not on you. They're not like your hard tickets, but you get to go out and just kind of go for it and see who you can win over. And I think there's like, yeah, there's a fun challenge in there. On the scale that I've been very fortunate to do it on, it's pretty a lot as well. Yeah, it's, you've done it on a big scale. But yeah, but to me, that actually just speaks to the size of your songs.

That's cool. That's cool. So just because maybe people don't know your songs yet, at the the scale that I think they will, doesn't mean they're small. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I hear that. So, like, when I hear a song that's big, yeah. I'm not talking about how high it's going to chart. Yeah, yeah.

I'm talking about a song that fills a space. Yeah, sure, yeah. And when I think about the touring you've done opening for big people, right? Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah, that's cool. You know? Yeah, I don't know if it.

Time is a thing. offer I was like oh my god cool like but it's not that you should do every offer no you know like it's got to be right definitely a lot of people could offer you to come on tour and I find anyways and I didn't have this when I was younger where I could go oh like what kind of artist am I or where should it be I was I'll do anything because I thought that was good that's not actually good yeah like making a thoughtful decision about where you think what stage you should be on is a thing yeah every artist should have the right to do that, right? Like, like, so when I look at what you've done touring-wise, so fine, it makes sense to me.

Now, yeah, you have to go build your own touring thing and, and what is your show and all that is like, you can imagine it and then you can put it together and then you go do it. And then by doing it, it grows. Yeah, you just kind of go up, play and hope for the best and yeah, yeah. You and some people over, but it always, it always felt right. It actually was a fun, almost A&R experience playing songs in those venues. You quickly learn what's going to work and what doesn't. And now I can kind of go, we're doing a festival, this is a set.

We're doing my show, this is a set. We're doing an opening crowd. These songs will work. And it fine tunes kind of what you know will work in those rooms. I always thought that touring made our records better because you almost start writing for moments live. Yeah, definitely. The choruses get bigger sometimes or this.

Yeah. It's really important. I feel that with all of the new stuff that's about to come. Because I think all the early stuff I wrote was very bedroomy and I actually never went to any live shows either growing up.

Right. No big arena shows? No, I didn't go to, literally didn't go to any live shows. I only started to go to live shows when I started doing music. Why was that? It was just not part of our

of what we did. Right, that's something you guys did. Well, I guess I was the youngest, so it's not, and I was the only girl, so it's not like I'd bring my brothers along. Yeah. Also money, it wasn't like. It's expensive. It's expensive.

My parents didn't value, I mean, recreational activities as a whole weren't a thing growing up because of money as well. Right. Cinema, film, you know, all that stuff. Totally. My parents valued music, luckily, because I think that was a skill. And that was almost part of the education thing that a lot of, of immigrant parents have.

Yeah, like you do piano lessons, violin. Yeah, it's part of upskilling, and it's part of opening doors and opportunity, but it still is always coming back to kind of, yeah, your survival in the world and your skill, but then actual just recreational stuff had not much value. So going to concerts just wasn't a thing. So I only started going when I started doing music.

And so I think, yeah, now being around the live experience, I think it's definitely shaped the new music for sure. Cool. We were the same. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's funny. We didn't go on vacation.

Exactly, yeah. So it's weird. We didn't do any of that stuff. No, I know. It's just, just a generational thing. Yeah, I think it's an economic thing. Yeah.

I think it's like, I also think now we live in a time of recreation. Definitely. Like social media and all that is just made recreation a big part of our lives. So we see other people doing it all the time. So true. It's also more accessible to do things. So true.

It's not as expensive or before. when you couldn't go on like TikTok and watch a how to video you didn't know how to do it definitely yeah so everything was kind of inaccessible to you unless you definitely unless it was like on a platter yeah and even then like you didn't know if all the other kids had been on these crazy holidays or anything you didn't know everyone else was was not doing that I guess yeah like whether they were or they weren't you didn't know yeah exactly now whether they are or they aren't you know yeah yeah yeah yeah a lot of it's not even really happening no it's so true it's all fabricated but yeah yeah you can rent i know you can rent a jet i knew you're gonna say that yeah set i know it's crazy can go take pictures i know it's crazy can rent i need to do

that you can rent cars i know by the hour yeah it's so true i know take some content shoot shoot for the day 100% be anyone you want i know what life i don't hate it I think it's fun. I don't know how I feel about it. I think if you're going to go for it, go for it. It's not something I'm going to be spending my time doing, but I enjoy whatever you're making or whatever buzz you're getting from it. I think everyone deserves to be happy.

If your idea of happy is creating yourself as a brand of this or that or that or whatever it is, everybody deserves the opportunity to do whatever the fuck they want and be happy. where it gets messy is if they're deceiving people for some gains of some kind that all different kinds that gets messy totally but it's messy thing being a human it is yeah but you know timeless to hire a private jet I guess go for it yeah yeah yeah um what does success you think feel like to you what if you look at the next like two years you're putting the record out you're going on tour give me the good version oh yeah I don't know I mean, we always, I always feel a bit uncontent, but I don't know.

I think it's my, my version of success is changing all the time. I think genuinely what gives me a kick is knowing that my peers respect and like it and like people that I respect really like it. And so I guess, I guess in that sense I've had a, I've had a small insight of what that is, you know, to be on tour with these artists and even when someone like you comes in and says, no, the songwriting's great. Like to me, I get a real kick out of just people that I respect, respecting me. So I guess it would be nice to put out a record that I know people really, that I love, really love it.

And I would love to be able to tour it. You know, I haven't done, again, I haven't done my own tours. I'd love to do big theatres and up from that, you know, from this record. Yeah, the metric stuff, I don't know, we'll see. It happens. But yeah, I think genuinely what gives me like a buzz of like, yes is knowing that like yeah people I rate rate what I do that's great it's all going to go up yeah you're not in a spot where I can tell you right now the energy is going up it's not it's not

going down okay hopefully next time we talk yeah yeah it went crazy it was so successful I think what you've done really well is um found yourself okay thank you in the songs and in the music and I think you just got to keep doing that thanks yeah You know, everybody that comes on this show, we look at every, it's not that I'm not, I'm like a hypercritical person, but I'm a vibe person. Yeah, yeah. And so I look at everyone's, everybody that's come on the show is like, for me, there's some reason. Like I see something and I'm like, I want to like connect with that. Yeah, yeah.

If I look at everyone so far that's been on the show, it's like 50 some people. Yeah. They all have different things that make them special. And I think that's what we have to lean into. because like I said we like we only get to be ourselves I'm not the most accomplished musician right I have a knack with some stuff yeah yeah I found a way to be myself in my world and build out yeah you know what I do and so it's like I'm in my shop every day working on my thing yeah and I really enjoy it yeah and I think that's kind of the idea that we all have to find yeah is like all of our shops are

different yeah and some people find it quicker than others and some people are better at it than others, but I think we're all on that same journey of trying to find our niche. I agree. Yeah. And I think that is in itself is something like I feel like I have to remember and not fight for, but just like you grapple with it every day. It's very easy, especially in like, I guess with pop and female pop to slip into music that sounds quite interchangeable with anyone else. And so it's like it's, you've got to stay really focused in trying to make sure this. I guess what I'm I've intentionally tried to keep something that feels like it's unique to me. So it's nice to hear that you're hearing that.

Yeah, just keep trusting it. Yeah, thanks. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Great to meet you. Great to meet you.

I'm a big fan. I'm a huge fan of this. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support. and we'll see you next time.