Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Hit-Boy - Part 1

Episode Date: August 27, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by ⁠⁠Hit-Boy⁠⁠. Hit-Boy has been the producer behind many immortal songs, straddling the worlds of hip-hop, R&B, pop, and beyond. His career began with an ⁠early placement⁠ on Lil Wayne’s Rebirth and quickly gained momentum when he produced “⁠Ni**as in Paris⁠,” a defining moment from 2011’s Watch the Throne. In the newest episode, Hit-Boy joins Joel Madden for a raw and revealing conversation about legacy, therapy, fatherhood, and finally reclaiming his power after nearly two decades in the industry. From producing hits for Jay-Z, Nas, and Travis Scott to carving out his own lane as a solo artist, Hit-Boy opens up about the pain, purpose, and persistence behind the music. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with Grammy award-winning producer, rapper, and songwriter, Hit Boy. Let's go. We have so much shit going on in music and in the music business, and the only thing actually we want to do is make music. No, for real. Or talk about music with other people that we, like, respect and like share information or share shortcuts around this thing or information of how to do that better. And it's funny because it's like such a wild business. No, it is, man. It'd be like for me, bro, I don't even want to, when I'm in a zone, I'd be like annoyed if I got to go use the bathroom.

Yeah. If I got to go eat, like I'm like, man, I know I need to do this, but like I'm just in that zone. Like a video game. It is. That's exactly what this is really always been, especially the production aspect. I looked at FL studio like my replacement for video games when I was a teenager. And I'm glad I did because it worked out, you know. It worked out really well for you. Yeah, it did. Really well.

Yeah, for sure. It's important, though, to say, like, it's not luck. You show up for opportunity. Yeah. And if you show up and you work hard, you get what looks like really lucky. But luck is... Countless hours that no one saw. No one paid you for.

and you didn't get a paycheck for all those hours. Yeah, all that. I always got to kind of remind myself that what we do isn't like a paycheck job. So when I go put 50 hours, 100 hours, 200 hours, a thousand hours into something, I'm not getting a paycheck for it. But then when I do get that big check from the hit song that I do have, out of the 100 I put out and the one is a hit, pays for the rest. It's like the accumulation of the money. like I always remind myself, say, I'll do this for money, but I, but when, once you get past 30. Yeah. And you're like a grown ass man. It's not cute anymore to like have in a hobby.

It's either you get a, you get a job to take care of your family or this shit better be a job. Yeah, you got to create that structure. Right. For sure. Right. But what age were you, do you think when you like knew that this is it? I'm doing this. Man, really like I always was like into it. because I grew up living with my uncle who had a successful R&B group. So I was into it, but by 13, I made that full decision. Like, I'm out to, like, write songs and I'm out to just, like, start from where I'm at and figure it out. Then I had the opportunity of talking to my uncle Rodney, and he was just like, you know,

you could take this time from now until, you know, 19, 18 years old, and you can go hard at school or you can, like, do this music thing. And when you get to where you want to be, you're going to be truly happy. And I just really took that in, man. like took it serious and it was like, I make that decision. Like, you know, so by 15, when I started messing around with the beats, I was like full flesged like this, there's no other way around it. You know what I mean?

I'm doing this. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You could say that your uncle and his success gave you a picture of like what was possible. Definitely. Right. That was the blueprint. That was the foundation.

That was me hearing the, you know, the big pop chords and R&B chords and just crazy production from high-level producers. like hearing all that going through my ears at two, three, four years old. It was just, I was just soaking it in. It's in my DNA at this point. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I think that's really important is like having a model of like what's possible. It's hard when a kid doesn't have anything around them.

Yeah. Like I grew up in Maryland across the country from where you grew up. You're from California. Pasadena. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So where I was from, there was.

wasn't really any music except for there was this local band that made it onto the radio and then they had like a platinum record. And they were called Jimmy's Chicken Jack, right? The rock band. It's like Steve's Lava Chicken. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the first, that was the first thing near me that I saw it and I was like, oh, they did it. I could do that. And then it kind of became the model for me so much as to where I moved to where they were from because I thought that had something to do with it. Yeah. And then went on the on the journey. But like I do think that like we have to actually call it out because someone listening right now might be listening to you as a big fan and they may not be able to find that anywhere around them. And I think that like it's important

to look for someone in your life that's doing something positive. Yeah. That you see that for yourself. You could go, I could do that or I could do that. One million percent. You know what I mean? Well, that's crazy because I really had the duality. That was like my reality. You know what I mean? Just my dad was in prison when I was three and my uncle was in a successful R&B group. And me and my mom lived with my uncle. So I was go visit my dad in prison and see the lowest level of life and then go stay with my uncle.

And he got nice cars and he got cribs and throwing parties. So I really seen best of both worlds. That's why I kind of keep it humble. You know what I keep in people. A lot of people be like, man, you're too humble. But this is just me. I know this shit. be up and down and it's like any minute you know things could go down it could be like a different

situation so you know that's crazy stay level-headed that's crazy have you ever really like I mean I guess you have because you just said it like unpacking that is a real thing like when you think about the two life paths you saw growing up making sense of that as a kid is one is one thing like growing up if your dad's in prison at three you said so was he there your whole life yeah until I was about to get out of school. Wow. And then ever since then he still has not been out for more than a year since since he was 19 years. Wow. So he's been in and out. It's struggled struggled to stay out. Yeah. That's tough. That's super tough especially like we was just on the run like we was just putting out music and you know people like Kendrick Lamar was embracing them YG, Thai dollar sign just a lot of

people was rocking with him and just to see him back in that position it's like man you know it also let me to the point I'm at in life right now where it's like, man, I love my homies, I love my family, I love everybody, but for once in my career, I got to really buckle down and focus and invest in myself on a level that I should have been doing years ago, you know what I mean? So now I'm at that point and I don't feel no way about nothing. Like, this is all about shaping the hit boy legacy into what I really see it being. Yeah. I do think that the journey you're on, though, coming to that conclusion is a process.

Definitely. Because we all go on the ride at first and we got to process all of it along the way. And we're up against a lot of things all in our own way. Successful, talented people tend to make things look easy. And they don't ham and hallow over the details of how they got there. So the thousands and thousands of hours you put in alone where no one was there telling you to. No one was encouraging you when the shit wasn't happening. And also, that's a whole lifetime of,

work to unpack that you either have or you will. Somewhere you will. Like there's a bill, right? Like when I always say, like I was telling my son, like, my dad left me with a check, a bill to pay, not a check, a bill to pay. And he was either going to pay it or I was going to pay it or you're going to pay it. Because that's the family legacy, right? And some families, like there's called generational wealth, right?

That's what we want to build. We want to build wealth so that our family is. good and our kids are good and their kids are good and that's the american dream yeah right and like but there's also generational debt straight up and that's trauma sometimes that's mistakes sometimes and like karma coming back and karma and whatever the reason is right we were born in this body to this family we didn't choose it we just were and then i think our journey and our like whole point of life is to figure that out what it means to be us and how to pay the debts

so that our kids don't have to if we can, right? Man, bro, I was like last week, maybe like Thursday, I was like up early and then my son like woke up but then he like laid on me and went back to sleep it's like early in the morning. I was like, bro, this is like heaven. Like this is like no check,

no amount of nothing that can come into my world is like feels better than this. You know what I mean? I really like I just had that moment where I'm like, yo, this is where it's at, making sure like that he's happy and he's safe and, you know, comfortable in life, man, like, that's the best feeling. And it's something that you get to experience. And the sad part is I had the same, but a different experience with my dad, but similar.

Well, he left when I was young. But the last 10 years of his life before he passed away, we were very close. So I got a lot of wisdom out of that because we were peers. It felt like he was free from the mistakes he made. that always haunted all of us to where like we got to this place where we were like just peers we were we were friends yeah and he would say things to me like everything i lost you don't have to lose i can be the one to lose it and you don't have to do that and just like be there for your kids and like be if you can right um your dad was in prison so it wasn't necessarily it wasn't his choice

to be there like he didn't want to be there right right so that's the part of like that's the part of life that's hard to understand too sometimes when you're in a situation that like you're completely powerless over you're sitting there but the thing that you get to that you felt the other day when your son was was laying on you was exactly that it was the reward of whatever life is giving you that you almost lost because your dad didn't get to 100 like anything i get to do with my son i'm looking at it like damn because i mean he looked like a little light skin version of me anyway so it's like i'm raising and myself and it's like all the stuff I wanted like he'd get everything

like he just break me down quick like he want this he want that he want ice cream like go he want to go shopping at Target like man we're there because I'm like I didn't get none of this you know what I mean that's the part that I experienced with my son and he gets it actually which is kind of cool because he knows my relationship with my dad I've never like hid anything from him

so he has a real wise understanding of like part of this is me loving him and like having just a really good father-son relationship. And actually part of it is me healing. One million percent. Because I didn't get to have my dad at my game. I didn't get to have, like I didn't collect cards with my dad. Like me and my son collect like baseball cards and shit.

And like we still do. And we're like hustlers in it. We're like, we're looking. You know, so he's in music. He makes music. And like we're, we are father's son, but we're also like best friends. And that's what I always dreamed of. Because every kid, no matter what they say, your dad's your hero.

And you want to believe that they are your hero. And actually my dad was, and I'm sure your dad is, my dad was a good guy who had bad, some bad ways. So I'm notamena. And like my music, my hair changed with me and has to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine of Sebastian Professional has all what my hair needs.

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My dad he's like a super likable person But some people be scared of them for no reason

You know what I mean It's just like The wildest thing But yeah I get what you Say man But I saw When you guys

were rolling out His music And I thought it was really special. I thought I saw you guys really like doing some healing and some bonding and some making up for lost time. And I actually feel like everyone watching was happy for you. Yeah, I felt that. I sense that. I seen the messages of people motivated because of their

relationship with their dad or their parents. And I've seen the impact that was making for sure. That's why I just hurt to see him back in that position again. But like you said, man, people it's like they could be great people but it's like they just find itself in these best up situations man yeah it's like they can't get away from it yeah we've all known those guys too and it's like no matter what like it's like man my pops made a lot of money he made a lot of progress he was on stage with Kendrick at the pop-out he was like doing songs with YG a snoop dog Todd Dulleson all these people were embracing him so it's not like he didn't have a path but it's just

like he's so deep in the other side that it just like trickles down and it's like it just hitty man you know yeah every time down there yeah it's hard man it's hard to make sense of like he was winning you were why we were all watching it we were watching him I say that to say like no matter what you do you cannot change a person and you cannot like sway like what they really feel deep down inside you know what I mean no matter how much money you spend how much time how much progress like you put them on to it's ultimately up to them to see the whole light. Yeah, and it's hard when, I think it's hard when the past is so,

when you spent more time in one cycle and then you get into another cycle, that's say a positive one and you're heading towards what more of what you want, the past can still be, there's a debt there that sometimes is too great. That is the word. For sure. You know what I mean? And it's, it's hard to understand though, and it's hard. And more than anything, when I sit with you, and we've gotten to spend some time together,

and I respect and admire you. For sure. Same. Because I see somebody who is, you know, it's crazy when you meet someone who's got so much talent and a success, like straight up, undeniable, good old-fashioned success to be able to actually just talk. And, I mean, you know, you know some humble guys in the business we're in. And then you also know the guys who aren't humble.

And like, you come to appreciate people who could be in the room. And just be cool. Just be in the room. Yeah. You know, so. Like, I ain't never had to be like the center of attention. I just do what I do. And it comes to me, you know what I mean?

Yeah. The attention, the love, the money, whatever it may be. Like, I'm, you know, obviously you want to make the bread, but it's like, I just make so much music. I have really no choice but to win in some capacity, you know? Yeah. But you also understand that the person that's generating all that. is a guy who would also go work at Home Depot if he had to take care of his family or go do whatever he had to do to take care of his family and that the things you've earned,

you earned them, but you also can enjoy them as a blessing like the time with your son. You're the one showing up for your son, but you're also a richer man because you understand what you're showing up for, whereas some guys are missing it completely. Yeah, missed the point. They're missing the whole point. and the loss that you had to suffer as a kid with your dad in prison and I'm sure all of the the moments missed is why you get such a rich full experience in relationship with your own son and I feel the same way about my kids I feel like a rich man yeah because I know what I could

be missing if I wasn't aware another day that's the richest I ever felt you know what I mean it's like I didn't make some bread, but it's nothing that can compare to that, that piece, like that real love. It's like it's straight genuine with him, you know what I mean? I always say my kids make the money and the success matter because we could have money from success. It feels great. It's like an amusement park ride. You can get on it sometimes. But the kids make it actually mean something where you go, oh, okay, now I see why I'm doing this.

Make no mistake. Your son is going to follow in your footsteps success-wise, whatever he decides to do. Because the model is there. It's so strong. You know what I mean? That's what I think about, too, is you and me both probably could say there was a good chance. Actually, I bet if a bunch of statistics people got together and they made a list of everything we experienced in our life. Right?

They would tell us our odds. Like the statistics would say, I was more likely to be a drug addict. that was more likely to be all the things, right? And so to be a success story against the odds of all the things, I think is like, it's something we can be proud of. Yeah, for sure. We should be. For sure, man.

I mean, bro, like, literally the house I made the beat for niggas in Paris and we was on, me and my mom was on Section 8, you know what I mean? Like, I had a little bread from like selling beats, but like we were still doing bad. We were still fucking, like, when I started making beats, we were standing in the Wick line to get free milk like i literally went through this shit you know i mean as soon as i got bread like i got a check from polo when i was like 18 years old he gave me like a check and i went and cashed it and put it in my sweater like the whole bank row i went and bought my mom a little purple ford escort i'm 18 years old but it's like all like that's what that's what making matter man

being able to like change my family's trajectory that's right yeah that's crazy though that's also too when anyone thinks when you have your first hit or your second hit they think all the sudden rich. That's not how it works. There's a delay. You got to keep having hits. And then you start to realize like, you got to balance relationships. You got to be able to work the rooms. You got to be able to like just get yourself in that position at the right time, man. For sure. And we have to stay out of trouble. Yeah. And what happens when we get a little bit of money? Trouble find people find us. The worst kind to. People suck. For real. I've learned that, especially like getting more bread and just like,

understanding how life work it's like it's some crazy people out there there's crazy desperate whatever you want to call it entitled it's all coming from a place of i want what you have how do i get it without having to do anything and that's the difference between an artist wants to create yeah an entrepreneur wants to build all of those things are positive the money is a byproduct the money it comes with the success of the thing coming to life that's a byproduct so you're not actually measuring the money when you make the thing you're just going this is dope i want to do this this is great or i want to work with conier or this person or that person like this is cool yeah i want to work with jz that's the dream right i want to work with legitimate artists yeah that have been around right

that when you're getting started by you're inspired by yeah the money's a byproduct all the stuff the fame the money the success people don't look at it like that they look at it like that's the driver i'm about to hopscotch in and i'm good i'm about to get this bread it's like man it's easy I went through every phase, like going broke multiple times, like fucking making it back. And all over again, man, it's like I had to bump my head a million times before I, like, got to this position where I'm, like, empowering myself and got the right nucleus around me, the right people to just, like, literally, like, trying to line every piece of my life up. Because I feel like if one thing is out of whack, everything else is going to fall down. So, like, now that I got that perspective, I'm trying to line up and just align with only the right people, man. That sounds right, though.

It sounds to me like someone who's had the actual experience. That's the only way you gain it. You could talk to any guy who's been in this business a long time. We've all had to do the same thing. So it's like only earned by you, by that pain, the heartbreak of someone betraying you, the heartbreak of finding out someone only fucking cared about the money, the heartbreak of failure, the heartbreak of loss, even just life loss, the experience you had with your dad.

was another, you know, when I see it and I go, I think an older man can handle it better. So you're older now. So I think that you probably weathered it better than you would have when you were young. But to have that experience where you guys were flying. Yeah. And then he has to go back to jail. That's heartbreaking. No, it is.

It literally was like heartbreaking. And it's like every time we go through this, I kind of, I don't know, mentally like it takes me back to being an abandoned kid. You know what I mean? It's like it's not a little You're like, oh man, you're 38 But it's like, bro, like that's real trauma That's real times I missed out on And I still

It's in the back of my head So it's like for this to happen Like when he got locked up in 2014 And then nine years That hurt just as much And then this time we was actually Really making real progress We really was doing shit

So nah bro I was out of commission For a minute I couldn't even fucking focus Enough to make music I remember I came to rock with y'all Like yeah It's like I wasn't in my right mind right there, you know what I mean.

You were working on it, but it's hard. It's tough. And it's important that you, sometimes in this music thing, we forget that we're watching real people and their real lives. That's why I never, I really don't judge anyone. Yeah. Until I get the chance to sit with them myself. And it's hard to expose when there's a heartbreaking situation, you know, because we're

supposed to just keep it moving, keep it. Or like, we're supposed to act like everything. things great because we have this successful career or whatever. But like for me, when I when I saw that with you, I felt heartbroken. And I didn't even know what happened. I knew your dad went back to jail. It was disappointing because I was so excited for you guys. Because as a kid who didn't have a great relationship with his father, it almost felt like it was me. Like when I watch it, I go, oh, there's like, I didn't get to do that with my dad. But I did get to be friends of them. But we didn't get to like experience the joy of making music or making anything together and so I was rooting

for you guys I was I was so when it when your dad went back to prison I felt disappointed and I felt really heartbroken for you because it was like oh man like I think everybody was actually excited yeah no I see I still see people on the street I mean I'll be outside whatever go to Vegas anywhere I'm at people be like man that's shit you're doing with your pops man that's ill like I've had execs in the business be like bro you did a bunch of dope shit but the illest thing I've seen you do was like trying to you know turn your dad up like that was an ill situation so I see I see strangers man they'd be like some people who won't even know he's locked back up right man when a big hit dropping some old shit I love big hit like I hear that

all the time man so it'd be like you know it's it's like it's like it's two sides it's empowering to know that we made an impact but then it's this is heartbreaking to be like damn like we was really on that track. We was really on that road about to make this happy. But it's a good story, man. Honestly, to see people try is a good story. That's all that was, man. You know what I mean? And it was a lot of that was paranoia because I know him and I know how quick chick could go left. I was like, let's just mash. Let's like whatever type of bread I got to spend, whatever type of traveling we got to do. Like, we're about to just go max out until something go down. You know what I mean? And it's like, I don't want to say it's inevitable, but it has been.

That's the pattern I've seen my whole life. So it is what it is. I just did the best I could with what we had in that moment. That's why you're successful because you try to take things into your own hands. Yeah. That's what you were doing. That's why you're a good dad. Straight up.

Yeah. And that's why you're successful in this business. The business will eat you up and spit you out and it'll either kill you, literally kill you, or you'll be a shell of a person. I know. Or you'll be a once was sad case. Sad, I've seen it. You've seen it, I guarantee you've seen it. Crazy.

I mean, brother, the kid that taught me how to make beats, he was my age 15. He was already advanced. He, like, knew how to work NFL and they had to program Acid Pro back in the day where, you know, that was our pro tools. We recorded our vocals in there. He was like, I used to be like, man, I would never be like ill as this kid. He ended up not doing shit, but he was the first one to tell me when he was 15. He was like, brother, the only way we're not going to make it. as if we stop.

And it's like, I took that to heart. He didn't even take his own advice. He ended up, like, a few months ago, he overdosed on fit and all. He's like, and it's like, I think he was on his porch for like two days before people found him. But just to see somebody I looked up to and used to really be like, bro, I don't even know how I can even get as good as him. And just like, I did all this shit in the industry.

He didn't do nothing. It's just like perspective. Like, damn, like, you really got to, you really got to dive in and you got to, like, believe. Like, you got to really like. It's, I don't know. I guess I just had something else in me, man. Well, I'll tell you. That pushed me to go to it. It's heart.

Yeah. It's something about having heart. Mm-hmm. And when I say heart, it's not just mental toughness. It's just not, it's not just the will to go forward, but also to feel things. Yeah. And be able to deal with it. Be able to deal with it.

That's why you can work. That's why you can be an artist and work with artists. Mm-hmm. Because that also takes humility. if you're only thinking about yourself and you're the lead singer all the time then you can't go work with all these other artists that are the lead singer of their thing right but a guy who's actually humble enough to be alone and work his ass off when no one's watching to go in and actually work with the lead singer or someone else's thing whether it's a jz

or a conier or a kendrick or whoever and then go and be his own artist as well yeah but then also go and try to put his dad up or put his, I'm telling you, man, the only reason I'm saying this is because you're making me realize some stuff. But like what I realize is like sometimes what I think is my weakness, what I'm the most afraid of people to see is actually my strength. I just have to be, I got to have enough heart to be myself.

And actually sometimes the front people put up is, that's the weakness. All the loudest guy. the tough that's all a front it expires at some point when you like faking it so yeah i try and i realize that too like my most pure like artistry moments when i'm being like completely myself doing what i want to do how i want to do it that'd be the most successful shit i do anyway you know i mean most of my hits was all just like i said i made the beat for goadie for niggas and for backseat freestyle in a crib or section eight crib you know what i mean that me and my mom

was staying at you know it's like, bro, this shit is possible. And then you have a moment, you know, and I think about the moment you have with your son, all the moments you have with them is actually not even about the music or anything else. It's actually the purest thing. It's two people that depend on each other and love each other. And you come back to music with that and you're unstoppable. Yeah.

But some people miss it. Some people miss the whole point. I know. Man, I've been like doing therapy. for the first time in my life. How's that? Most people in my upbringing, as far as I knew, they'll probably be like,

yo, why would you pay to talk to somebody? You know what I mean? That's the type of thinking of, like, people I grew up and came up around. So I never got to experience it. But for like the last six months, man, it's helped me articulate myself better. It helped me get lyrically better, you know what I mean? Just more tapped in.

And I realized a lot of stuff about myself. That's why I'm able to talk freely and be able to say the shit to you. Like, I never created boundaries in my life. Like with my women, with my homies with like, I just like, boom, I got it. We all got it. Let's move. Yeah. I go get a crib.

Everybody come move with me. I'm going to dinner, all 20 of us. I'm paying for the whole shit. Like I just like my life was everybody else's life. And it just don't work like that. You know what I mean? Like I really put the grind into, you know, it's nothing wrong with fucking with your people who's helping them out.

Well, generosity is one thing. Yeah. That's one thing. That expectation get crazy. But expectation in creating habits. Yeah. It's interesting because I had the same experience. And I didn't have therapy either for until I was probably in my 30s.

And then once I started having, once I started therapy and I realized how much more powerful it made me to actually understand myself and then also process emotion quickly. So one of the things that we do what they say like even in like, okay, so I was listening to this guy talking about being in like Afghanistan. And he was serving. And he was saying how did he become the like leader of his. unit. Well, they got hit on the road by like some IEDs or whatever. And he was the only person to keep his head on and stay calm and that he stayed calm under pressure. And then from that day, everybody followed him. And they were like, well, how did you do that? And he was like, well, I've always been, he was saying how he had always been raised and taught. And I don't know if it was

therapy. I can't remember what he said. But he said he was always taught to process situations and in motion so he could do it very quickly. So in a high intense situation, he could keep his head on straight because he was able, the game was still slow for him. And then I realized that a lot of my childhood trauma and shit like that had caused me to be like my head was always spinning. So I'd lose my temper really fast. And I would start acting out really fast when there was ever any pressure. And the minute I started going to therapy, I started realizing that what I was learning how to do was actually process information really quickly. Exactly.

And process like how I felt. Why is this happening and all that type of, yeah. And stay calm so that I don't make any mistakes. And then sure enough, as I stay in therapy, I've probably been in therapy now for like 14 years, I'm 46, there's probably 32 or 33 when I started. So long enough, I started after about five or six years of therapy, I turned a corner where I was always calm. And I could process any good. news, bad news, I was always calm.

Unless I was excited about art or something. And then I started leading people. I started companies and I started having and I realized there was a real correlation with leadership and the relationship with self. How do I feel? Self awareness. And then you can start to see other people. You can start to see people that are anxious.

You can see people who are traumatized. You can see people. Straight up. You can actually start to see the board. and you can see people's weaknesses. You can see it's interesting. It makes you better in life, in business, in work out in the world when you're moving through the world, when you're on the street.

You can see the guy who's agitated. You can see the guy who's anxious. You can see your instincts become stronger. And so, like, it's interesting because what I thought was negative has actually been the most positive thing I've ever done. I thought it was negative that I had to go to therapy. I look down on myself I feel you

that I had to go because I was messed up and I couldn't I mean it could be like a stigma you know what I mean like I said like some people would be like man especially in the hood

whatever like why are you paying to talk to somebody you know what I mean that'll make you feel uncomfortable that'll make you feel like you might not be doing

the right thing but like all that's bullshit like you know what I mean you could really like dig deep and really like get to the

the real reason why shit is happening like by embracing like the real Our conversation continues in part two.