Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - ILLENIUM

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by ILLENIUM. Though ILLENIUM (aka Nick Miller) produces Grammy-nominated EDM, he spent his younger days entrenched in the worlds of alternative rock, metalcore, and pop punk. That influence still surrounds his music, paying homage to those roots through collaborations with Avril Lavigne, Travis Barker, and Spiritbox. He’s also partnered up with End Overdose after getting addicted to opiates in the late 2000s, providing education and safety training through tours and livestreams. In a conversation with Joel, they talk marriage, sobriety, and his upcoming album, Odyssey, which coincides with a six-show residency at the Sphere in Las Vegas. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

That's rare that people get to do that. I know. That's why I feel. Or have the balls to do it. I mean, it's both, you know. It's like been such a gamble. That's why like my anxiety going up to this release and like announcement and on sale was just like, oh my God.

I put all of my fucking eggs in one basket. Were you anxious? Oh, yeah. Do you friends call you Nick? Yeah. Okay. Keep it easy. We'll call you Nick.

Yes, sir. Nice to meet you. You too, dude. Thanks for coming. Stoked. How's things going? Good, really good. Just had a nice little like two and a half week vacation in Europe, which is rare. Oh, that's cool. You just went to hang. Yeah, just to hang. Didn't have a show or anything. So went

out there with my wife and had some relaxing time. Oh, you're married. Yes. Great. Yeah, two years just now. Two years. Yeah, we've been together like eight. So we've been married too. How you like marriage life? It's good. Yeah. She's like such a badass. She's like my art director and an artist and awesome. And yeah, it's good. So you guys are like partners. Yeah. She like is kind of. the boss in some works. I'm partners with my wife as well. We work together. Didn't start that way, but we've been together for 19 years now. Oh, wow. And you think like, oh, is it going to get old? It doesn't get old. Yeah. It actually gets better. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I feel like, you know, especially in my realm, like DJ, like a lot of people are like, oh, how do you do?

I mean, I'm also sober. So it's like, I don't know. I just love like my social life is playing shows and, making music and I love that. And then when I'm home, like, I love just chilling with my wife and doing, like, relaxing things. I'm very much like homebody golfing. Me too. Yeah, like video games. How long sober are you? 13 years. Oh, that's great. Yeah. It's crazy. Lifetime ago. Yeah. Yeah. Was that easy? No, it was shitty. I like, uh, it was pretty much when I was like in high school, I got into opiates really bad. And then, you know, like back then it was like oxies were super bad. and then early 2000s yeah uh it was like i got sober in 2012 but early 2000s is probably when you would i started getting into it in like 2000 when was it 2007 2008 i was young that was the time

dude it was yeah it was at first it was peak yeah first it was awesome epidemic yeah 2006 2007 was like it was like the screeching peak yeah that's when i saw everyone die in the 2000s i would say 99 to 2009 yeah was like we were torn 12 months a year, nonstop. We'd come home for four weeks, make a record, go right back out. And, like, everybody was on pills. Dude, it's crazy. It was, like, the access to it was insane.

Yeah, it was crazy. Like, I lived in San Francisco at the time, and it was, like, the easiest shit to get off all time. Yeah. Yeah. So I saw that firsthand. Not only did I have family members who were, like, straight up became junkies and stuff off of that,

but I saw so many people die in music around, like, and I'm not even talking about. about like singers you would know i'm talking about guys on the crew guys on the tour we all had friends that all died yeah i've had so many probably crazy 10 to 20 like close homies that have just like either that i was trying to get sober with that found out like two years later fucking odied especially when you know if people were sober for a while and then went back out that's it that was always it and it's always like especially in the past 10 years with fentanyl like it's just everyone's just immediately out. Yeah. Yeah. Not really even 10 years, eight years. Yeah, it's fucked. It's fucked.

That's why I tell my kids. I'm like, yo, all I know is everyone I've seen die before too young. Yeah. It was, it was like three things. It was drugs. Yep. Pills. So drugs, pills, anything, pills and powders. Right? Guns. Yeah. All these like want to be gangsters and and real gangsters because the real ones always die. Yeah. And then motorcycles. Yeah, that's for sure. Motorcycle.

Yeah. Everyone, I've known so many people. And at this, at this age, I'm 46. So I'm like a dad. Yeah. So I'm not like cool anymore with like just like, oh, that's cool. You're doing that? Did you ever ride?

I did. Yeah. I did. I did dirt bike, but I never got on the road, dude. I would die so fast. Dirt bikes, you get hurt. So, but if you're off road, you don't have to worry about other. drivers. You just have to be safe, smart, whatever. But your chances on our dirt bike, you can get

seriously hurt. Yeah. But a dirt bike, I don't put in the category of like going out on a motorcycle and like riding with other, because it's the other drivers. Yep. And doing crazy stuff on the freeway and all that. But I've known so many. So I always tell my kids that, I'm like, look, from my experience, these are the ways you die young. Yeah. Drugs number one, period. 100%. I've seen in the 20, 20 plus people that I knew that died is a pretty traumatic thing. Guns and motorcycles. I'm sure there's a bunch of other ways. No, those are the definitely, I agree.

Those are really dangerous. And as a 40 middle age guy, it's weird how you think in your middle age. You're young. I'm older than you by a lot. Not that much, bro. I think, wow, I've gotten old because I think that way. Because when I see, you know, my son will talk to me. about something or some 20-something year old singer of a band will talk to me about something and I'm like

well that sounds really dangerous man here here's what I would do so yeah I get scared the crap out of me the only thing that I still like mess around with and the danger territory is snowmobiling like I'm really into that's dangerous like in the backcountry I love it though it's just the best but still it's dangerous yeah but it's still kind of controlled in the way where you're not out on the freeway on a motorcycle yeah yeah that's all it is is it's the best quiet though You're doing it sober. Oh, yeah. That would be a bad idea.

Yeah. But people do. And with homies always, never alone. You're never alone. That's the dangerous thing. It's like you hit a bank or something. I mean, you also get stuck like every day. Like getting out by yourself would be horrendous.

Yeah, it would be not fun. You're in Colorado? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a house here too. So whenever I'm like writing, I come out here. And then whenever I just like kind of want to kick it, I produce out there's two. But I love writing here and like working here.

That's good. It's not too far. No, it's not bad. No, I'm on the road so much anyways. It's not bad. Yeah. I'm very happy that your marriage is going good. It's a fire. It's a really cool thing. Yeah, it's great. I'm super happy. Like I was saying, though, when I think about that, me and my wife work together now, which is amazing. Yeah. For our relationship. Really? I was always afraid if we work together, it would be bad for our relationship. Yeah. But then I was like, I'm really good at what I'm good at, which is figuring things out.

And I've always worked with my brother. Yeah. Why would it be any different if I work with my wife and take what I do really well and apply it to what she does, which is she's creatively. She's really good with like fashion and stuff. Yeah. So I started working more and more in her business.

And now like we work together like every day. Oh, sick. Filling in the gaps, you know, is just the best. That's what you should do. Totally. Like I'm like not, when it comes to like looking at a piece of art or something like that

or like we're making, you know, we just did our album artwork. And like, I saw the first renderings and I'm like, I love it, but it's not there yet, but I don't know. Put your finger on. I don't know. And she's immediately like this, this, this, this. And it's like, the biggest difference between us is like, I'm very like action. Like I go, I see something. I'm like, go, go, go. And she's very like patient because she doesn't want to miss anything. And so sometimes I'm like, come, go, go faster. Like, let's, you know. It's a good balance. No, it's a great balance. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's really good. I actually think that's part of the recipe for long-term success is partnerships that,

okay, the very basic level of like marrying someone is you fall in love, all the boxes are checked. You love this person. You're attracted to them. They're fun. They're all these things. You want to spend your life with them. Long-term, I actually think playing games together.

Yeah. Which is what work is. Yep. is like what takes you to long-term success and like evolving and then you have another idea and you end up you'll end up with three businesses yeah you know yeah I definitely feel that that's cool yeah good for you guys oh what's her name laura laura yeah shout out to laura laura yeah she's awesome yeah she's back home watching the dogs that's sweet how many dogs you got we have one we lost one a year ago but yeah the one is great she's a crazy dog it's tough losing a dog i know man so shitty

I lost my guy during COVID. Oh, man. And it was sudden. It was like, really? Ours was sudden too. Yeah. Yeah.

He had cancer and it was gone. Really? And then we got two dogs. That's how great he was. He was a German Shepherd. And to replace him, we had to get two dogs because he was so great. Yeah.

Two's the best. Two's good. So I was looking over your stats. How long have you been doing this? I started Elenium in like 2013, but first album came out in, 2015 or 16, I think? 2016, yeah.

10 years. Yeah, 10 years, six albums coming out on almost like, yeah, around 10 years. Album number six is coming out. The album's out early February, but we're announcing the date, you know, right around then. Okay. Early November. You're announcing the date. Yeah, exactly.

In early November. With the number six. Exactly. And are you announcing the title and all that? So the title is actually, we were in like a weird predicament with the sphere residency because the sphere show is, is like, my new album show. And so we had to actually announce the album name with the show when we announced it a month ago. Yeah. So it's called Odyssey. It's very cool. Sick. What a way to roll an album out.

Yeah. So it's been so fun, man. I feel like I was looking for like, how do I make your six album feel special? And I was like so excited about the music. And then when we started talking about the sphere residency, it's like, oh, this is, I'm going to go so into making a world for this and making a show for it and like the album is going to be I'm going to be thinking of like the sphere visual scenes and for all these songwriting parts it's been like so fun sick it's a different way to write because it's kind of like it's almost like making a movie for your album to an extent yeah it's like uh something like in between a movie in a Broadway show and an experiential like uh so immersive yeah crazy yeah i feel like the spear is working it's so sick dude yeah i mean it's been

such an exciting and challenging, but like the process of like the time it's been taking for everything, like starting from early January when I kind of got this idea to now like 10 months later, how much we've done and how much music I wrote is crazy, crazy. So fun. It's been freaking rad. That's awesome though. I think there's something about taking the time to design your show and really toil over it that makes you a better artist. Yeah, it's been fun.

It's a whole new like canvas. You know, like you can go so in depth on these character creations and then like, you know, this whole, we have a storyline

and it's very like, uh, in a world, you know, a lot of the sphere shows are kind of just like, oh, that's a trippy visual, cool next song.

And it's really cool. But I just wanted to like, I'm such a movie fan and like I love, you know, like Dune 2 or like, these worlds where you're like, fire, bro. I've watched it probably like seven times. It's so good.

But like that or like interstellar. Like I love these type of movies that you just dive into the world. And I was like how I haven't been to a show at the sphere that's quite that immersive. So that was my whole goal was like how do I. Sick. Yeah. It's been so fun. How long is the residency?

It's nine shows right now. When does it start? Middle March. Okay. Middle of March. Yep. For the rest of the year. No.

So it's no. It's just the first show. It's Thursday, Friday, Saturday. It's three weekends right now. Oh, wow. Yeah, nine shows, three weekends. Okay, so once you do the Spears show, Nickerette.

I got a thing in right now. Can you tell? I'm always, I always have freaking, I'm such a nicotine head. Me too. Yeah. That's all we got. Yeah, I know, right.

Do you think you'll take anything from that show and take it out on the road and try to give people some version of it? What's unique about mine is like the whole idea with this, because normally when I make an album, I go on an album tour, you know, North America album tour. Right. But I think I really wanted to make this unique in the sense of like, I want this to be my album tour. I don't want to do the full bus tour like one night only type thing. I want to just, yeah, I want to go as, and that's the only way to make like this feel so special.

Right. Because no one else is doing it like that. And so right now, the only thoughts are sphere shows. You know, that's like there's like, you know, we're thinking about international shows and stuff like that. but for North America, we're just, that's all we're going for. Yeah. That's dope. Yeah. I mean, it's like, especially when we're making the visuals, you know, it's in such a interesting format for this fear that it's very challenging to take that immersive of a show

and just like go play it at an arena that doesn't have the, yeah. Honestly, that's smart. There's ways to do it cool, but. But you're giving people something special. Yeah. That's the whole point of Vegas. That's the whole point of a show or residency at the sphere. it's like it better be something special.

It's just like I've done so, I've done so many tours, you know, that like this is unlike any of that. So I want to go into just commit, you know, I'm just committing to it fully. It's great, man. It's fun, man. It's crazy. Good for you.

That's rare that people get to do that. I know. That's why I feel. Or have the balls to do it. I mean, it's both, you know. It's like been such a gamble. That's why like my anxiety going up to this release and like announcement and, on sale was just like oh my god

I put all of my fucking eggs in one basket were you anxious oh yeah how do you feel now oh good dude I mean it's going great where I'm like so stoked on how the fans have responded and like I'm really stoked

because we haven't actually put out any content like we're selling this strictly on like this is a new album show that's all people know people don't know what it's going to look like there's no teaser they haven't like I don't have any there's no visual that I've played before that is in the sphere show, like it's all new.

And so it's a pro and a con, you know. It'd be nice to, like, be able to sell the show with some of the content, but you can't really do that until the show starts. That's great, man. Congrats. Thanks. So in the last 10 years, you have amassed 10 million monthly Spotify listeners. Yeah.

It might be more than that now. It's around that. Over 3 million followers across social platforms. That's more than I have. 638 million video views on YouTube. alone, just YouTube. You're Grammy nominated. Yeah.

You won a Billboard Music Award. Two times platinum, more than that platinum, but two times platinum for good things fall apart. You were included on the Forbes 30 under 30. Crazy. So you're in your early 30s now. 34. 34.

It's great age. Yeah, it's good. I feel like from like 30, 31, 32, 33, there's like zero difference. I haven't felt like any different. It's like, I feel like in your early 20s, you know, you really feel each year. It's more dramatic. Yeah, 30s is spent like still early 30s. Yeah, 20s is kind of for like becoming an adult.

Yeah. And like some people are an adult at 23, some are at 28, 29, like somewhere in there. Totally. You become an adult. And then 30s, you better be an adult. And that's when you start to see separation. Yeah. You see guys who have their shit together.

Okay, so I'm saying from the perspective of a guy. Yeah. I'm not talking about women. I don't, I could give some perspective on that. but I'm saying as a guy, my experience, you start to see in the early 30s, like where you're at, the guys who have their shit together and take themselves seriously, move like here. And then you do see those guys that do not want to grow up over here. And people start to kind of like get weird a little bit.

And then it just keeps getting further apart. When you get to your 40s, even weirder. The guys who won't grow up. And the guys who like got married or got their business. or got their job or took their career or whatever they dedicate their time to, they start getting momentum like mid 30s to 40s. Yep. That's the time.

No, I feel that. You're entering that like golden era. I feel, I mean, I act pretty fucking old. Like, I don't, I don't fucking do. I mean, I'll like do, uh, the only thing I feel like is funny is like, I love gaming. Like, I'm still really into fucking gaming. Yeah. And I'll be like gaming sometimes and I'll be playing with like a random new friend.

I have like some friends on. online. Yeah, of course. And this new friend will be like, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, you know, just got out of high school and I'm like, oh, God, I'm fucking so old. What am I doing? And they're all so much better than me. It's fucking, yeah, but I still love that part. Yeah. That's the only place I have not grown. What games do you play? I'm playing Battlefield 6 law right now. Oh, wow. I should's fire. I love shooters or like immersive like world, like Eldon Ring and stuff like that too. Yeah. You like to go on a quest. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, Good stories.

Yep. Well, the stats are impressive. 57 of your songs have charted on the Billboard Hot Dance Electronic Songs chart. All that to say, you've done a lot at 34. Yeah, man. Very grateful. At 34 to accomplish all this, it says to me, and now, you know, sitting with you, I kind of thought, I had a sense that we would like, that you would be like this.

You don't get to the success you've had and building like such a big touring career and having success in this without. some real drive. Yeah. And drive and then kind of the sense to choose this over that. Yep. So you choose when it comes to, okay, drugs and alcohol, getting, it's starting to overtake this. Yep.

I'm going to choose this. Put this back on top. Put that away. Yeah. Unhealthy relationships, whatever, whatever. They start to overtake this. Nope. Yep.

I'm going to. And it's not that complicated, but it's harder to do than. easier said than done. Yeah. When I talk to younger artists and I'm like, always choose this. Just simple. Yeah. You want to have success?

Choose this. Yeah. Be smart. Work hard. Yeah. Try your best. But you have to choose this every day over even some stuff like friends birthdays, weddings.

You're going to miss a whole lot of shit when you're building a career. 100%. But when you get it on paper. Yeah. Look at what you've accomplished. Yeah. Was it worth it? 100%.

I mean, I love it. I love the grind. I love like, you know, the hardest transition for me was obviously getting sober. Like it was such a, but at the point that I finally did, I was like, I had to choose my life. You know, it was like last time I used I OD'd. So it's like, it was like, you know, that was the hardest, the hardest transition. And then I feel like once I really made that and then I found music, it was just like I'm going like I was so in love with making music and like the passion and drive was there. And it was fully like that's what I'm going to just. fully decide that is what I'm doing. You know, like, I'm going to do that every day just because I love it. And it wasn't like when the career actually like started and I was like, okay, now I get to, you know, see like, you know, what kind of artist do I want to be? What stories do I want to tell?

And at the end of the day, it's like music helped my life and like helped me find myself. And like that's really what I want to try to give to other people and like give that escape, you know, that you get from really, really like being. obsessed with a song or an album. So it's just like it's easy to make those decisions when I when the passion is there, I feel like. Yeah. For me at least. But you had to be sober to do it. 100%. So were you touring and everything before you? Okay. So you got sober before. Yes. I got sober when I was 21. Wow. And I like was sober for a little bit when I was 19 to 20 and I started like getting back into music a little bit, but just like dabbling. And then I had a bad relapse.

And then that ended with an OD. And then pretty much, like, after that, within the first, like, couple weeks, I was just, like, I've always loved music. Like, finding music. I was writing for blogs and, like, at the time of blog days and shit. Like, I loved. And the electronic scene was just, like, starting to take over. And I was obsessed with, like, finding a song and just, like, living in that song, you know? And then when I was, like, I've always...

Were you in college? No. Well, yeah, kind of. I've gone to a lot of colleges and never finished. But at that time, yes, yes. You were in college? I was in a community college in like the mountains. So I was like in 2009, when did I move?

In 2011, I moved to Colorado and I was living in the mountains and I was skiing a ton. By yourself? Yeah. I mean, I met so many friends, but I went to a treatment center there. Started working at a coffee shop and was just like ski bumming a lot. Okay, so the drugs kind of took you there. Yeah, I'm no, getting sober. I've gone to probably seven treatment centers.

So like one of the last ones I went to was in a small town called Carbondale, Colorado. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carbondale's awesome. It was fire. So I lived there for two years. And I was like dabbling with making music, but I was really just obsessed with finding music for ski playlist, really. Like, you know, a lot of M83 and like really epic soundtrack shit. At that age, too. Yeah, it was fire.

It was fire. And I was like dabbling with Ableton. Like how do you make some of this stuff, but not serious? And then in like 2012, I had a relapse. And I, that's when I OD'd. And then on pills. No, on heroin. Oh, yeah.

Oh, you moved to heroin. Oh, I was, yeah. So by the time you went into rehab. Yeah. So you've been to rehab seven or eight times. Yep, starting from 2009 to 2011. Wow. So was it first pills and then it moved to heroin?

Pills were like, yeah, 2009-ish and then heroin, 2010, yeah, 11-ish, yeah. It's tough. That's just like the evolution, bro. Yeah. Yeah, especially when like all the pills started to get harder to get. Right. So it was just like, yeah. What age were you when you got into drugs?

I was like, you know, I was always like starting to experiment with shit. I think the first time I was like doing perks and shit was probably 16-ish. Wow. Yeah. It's funny, like 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Kind of tracks. They feel like such long year. Like I think about that part of my life and it just feels like so much longer than four years, like the past four years.

Well, it was. Yeah, it's crazy. Because the fraction of your life at 16, one year is a 16th of your life. Yeah. So it feels like a 16th of your life at that time. Yeah. And it's actually true. Yeah.

How interesting. Zero to one is the longest year of your life. Yeah. Yeah. The math. The math works. The math is mapping. It's a full year of 100% of your life.

Yeah. And then as you get older, it feels shorter because it's a smaller fraction of a lot of a greater thing. So it's a strange thing with time because we, think time is equal. Time's not equal. When you get older, time is less.

And so you have, it's a thing of wisdom. It's kind of a paradox because you get older, like I'm 46. A year is a lot shorter for me. And I look at my kids and I go, all you have is time.

Don't waste it. And they think I'm like, an old, I don't have like a long gray beard and I'm like stroking it. But like, like, I wish I did.

I'd be like a Rick Rubin just being like, Like sitting there going like, all I grow is a neck beard. So I don't think it'd look for it. I have just like, I wouldn't look very wise. All I can do is pretty much this, right? Yeah. So at 16, it's a long ass year and you get into a lot.

Yeah. And I think that, God, you just want to minimize the damage you can do to yourself. Yeah. You know what I mean? Off the fucking rocker. Yeah. Was it like at school? Yeah.

I mean, it was. It was. If you don't mind me asking. No, no. I'm, I'm an open book about it, bro. I don't like, yeah. But I don't know what it was, especially with opiates. Like as soon as I, like, I never did it as prescribed.

But like my dad, when I was 17, my dad had a super bad head injury. And he had a bunch of, and he didn't really take the painkillers. And they were just in the cabinet. And so like the first time I was like, what was his injury? He had, he was longboarding in San Francisco down a, down a hill. And he fell, hit his head really bad on a, on a curb. and he was like full memory loss for a while

and it was fucking brutal. Is he okay now? Yeah, he's great. He did lose his taste of smell and his taste, which is fucking crazy. Forever? It's come back slightly,

but it's like pretty, it's pretty messed up. Brain injuries are crazy. Bro, it's so, it's so sad, yeah. Crazy. But he's, yeah, he's the man.

Are you guys tight? We're so tight, yeah. He's an awesome guy. Best out of it. Was he into like music and stuff? I guess skateboarding. Loves country music.

I mean, he was, just like my whole family was big country music fan okay yeah some class of rock and stuff Steve Miller band and shit yeah why were you guys in San Francisco did you grow up there yeah so I moved around a ton when I was a kid and then in middle school my dad got a job in San Francisco and we were living in Marin County for a little bit and then we moved to the city in my like high school so like 05 to 09 or 10 also kind of like a drug place oh yeah easiest kind of easiest place of all time to fucking get drugs do you think that had anything, did it lend itself to? I don't, not really. The accessibility only really

happened when I progressed to like stronger opiates because then I was, but at first it was all just like, you know, Vicodin percette when I was 16, 17. And then the oxy's like stronger 30s and 80s and shit. I wasn't really doing until 17ish. And so I won't spend too much more time on this. No, you're interested. You sounds like your parents are like. They're awesome. They were like, they were not. supportive. Yeah, they didn't know shit. Right. Yeah, they didn't know what was going on. No, no. I mean, they caught me like, I was selling ecstasy. I was a very unsuccessful ecstasy dealer for a second, but like I like fucking got caught with a Facebook message up on my fucking, am I at home when I was like 17, I think. And like my parents confronted me and like threw him away and like had me fake arrested one time.

That was the first time they saw that I was like fucking around. But it, Like those two years from 16 to 18, it progressed a lot. You know, it feels like a long time, but it was not that long of the time. The only reason I ask is because I'm always interested in trying to like understand somebody's addiction journey because my dad died from addiction. And I've lost so many people from addiction. And I always try to understand the mind. Yeah.

And I wonder, I have my own theory, right? because I do believe that we're all born. There is something we're born with, right? Some of us are more inclined. Yeah. I mean, I feel that. I fully believe that because even when I'm sober, like, I have to be addicted to something. Right.

But now it's beautiful and positive and healthy and fun. And like I almost, I enjoy that like, you know, obviously I'm not getting high, but I enjoy that grind. It's kind of a high though. There is highs. When you hit a good round of golf. Yeah, for sure. Or like making music. You know, making music or being on stage. For sure, huge high. I find myself being hyper-focused on things when I get into something. So it's probably similar to you. Yeah. Music, golf, then, you know, fitness or a video game of some kind or a collection. I collect

shit. I collect more shit than, you know, like my wife hates it. She's like, you're like a hoarder. And I'm like, I'm not a hoarder. It's a collection. And I'm like, I could resell all this. stuff for really good amount. I totally understand. It's like a joke, right? I have a room at the house. It's my room. It's full of shit and it's closed.

And that's like the insanity of my brain, go in that room. It's cool as shit. Fire. But it's a little bit like this. It's a manifestation of my mind. And I wonder, though, if the addiction early on was a lack of things to focus your creative energy on because. when you're growing up in the normal.

Yeah. What we do is not normal. Yeah. We don't live normal lives. But I feel like we both do find escape in things. You know, I feel like that's what it comes down to. Constantly escape. It's like, escape shit.

And so when you're going through like your teenage years, if that's like what you're seeking and you don't really know how to find it and you're like partying with friends and you find like that in partying with friends, you kind of like get self-confidence and you have like a. you know, a bit of escape in that and then drugs enter the picture. And that for me, it was just like immediate, especially opiates. It's like that is the best escape. So that's my theory. You're saying it. Yeah. My theory is that hyper creative people. Yeah. When not at early ages, tend to find drugs. Yep. Because the normal everyday kind of like system that was built, right,

which is go to school, go to play a sport, and function like pretty much the same. If you look at every kid, then they become adults and they choose their life path. And what I'm saying is me and you, we don't live normal lives in the sense of like, what I would say is 90% of people probably. Totally. I'm not saying like it's a bad thing. No. But we kind of choose our adventure any given year, any given week, any given month.

And we go on the adventure. Sometimes it becomes a fruitful work exercise. Sometimes it costs us and we're on some, you know, experiential journey, right? Yeah. But it's not drugs. And we usually come back from the experiential journey with something that turns into money later somehow. Yeah, it is interesting. So it's interesting.

Yeah. But if we dismiss it as not important and we don't act like we aren't in control of our life and that we're not making thoughtful decisions, like, okay, I'm going to do this beer and I'm going to do the best show that anyone's ever seen. What do you think? And everyone's like, um, I don't know. Sounds like you're going to lose money. And that's all they took away from it. Yeah. What we take from it is it's going to be the greatest thing. Everyone's going to see it. It's going to blow their minds. And they're going to be, if they don't know who I am and they're a casual fan, they're going to become a super fan because this is going to be like fucking Dune too.

Yeah. That's the goal. You just were inside my mind for me. Right. Yeah. That's great. And that's the most important thing. Yeah. And if we don't have a goal that's more important than the things that 90% of people hold is important, which is money, safety, all these kind of things that like is not what you're going up on a mountain on a snowmobile or on a snowboard. That's not safe. Yeah.

Safe enough that you can do it and get away with it, which is where we need to find in life is we need to find the margins. Yeah. Where we can safe enough that we can do it and get out alive. might get some scratches. That's a career in music. Totally. Right?

Massively, yeah. And, okay, so my dad died from addiction. I wonder if he was like me. He worked manual labor his whole life until he died. And I wonder if he was creative like me. I know he played music. I know he was in a band in high school, but that's all I knew.

I didn't know anything else. And I always wonder, like, is the lack for a place to point that focus and that energy and if we can get out of our teens with as little scrapes and scratches and bruises and as little rehabs as possible, right? So like seven or eight is a lot, but it's just enough

that when you say that to me, I go, oh, he knows what he's fucking talking about when it comes to drugs, but it's not so much that you're a lost cause. Yes. Right? I mean, unless you are totally incapable of being honest

with yourself or with others, I don't think anybody is a lost cause. cause at all. That's great. Yeah. That's a great way of saying that. Yeah. I think there are very rare individuals that just are sadly like can't be honest entirely. Like they're just totally like lost to themselves. And that's the saddest thing to see, you know, but I regret none of it, which is, you know, I think some people find interesting. But like 100% like I'm very, very grateful for where I'm at. You know, if and I totally would not have got there and without like, if I'm going to change something within myself, I need like life or death.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It needs to be stakes. It needs to be serious. Gotta be sticks. And that was, that's just kind of what I had to go through from my personal experience. And so I have like so much sympathy for people going through that. And, you know,

like I also don't really have a resentment against drugs. I feel like, I feel like they serve a really positive purpose sometimes. I feel like some people, you know, of the psychedelic side and like healing PTSD and like a lot of like the soldier studies and like there's some amazing things that can be accomplished. And I also go down the rabbit hole of like, you know, going deep into the, uh, what's it called like the ayahuasca. Yeah, ayahuasca journeys

and stuff. Like I, I don't think I would want to do it because I don't want to open the hatch, but I am full on like if that's what people need to do to find, you know, spirituality or, uh, you know, anything that will make them feel happier or do better in their life than I'm fully about it. I feel that way too. Yeah. It's tough with like opiates and like benzos and stuff, you know. I don't put weed or mushrooms in the drug category, but you can get addicted to them. So there's still things you can get addicted to it. And you can do too much. But what you're saying, I think, is true. When I just read all those stats off, right? I do that for a reason. We're living in your success now. Yeah. Right. All the things that got.

you there. It could have been the addiction. It could have been a bunch of other things. It's likely a mix of everything. It's got to be your own drive, your own creative drive, your own aspirational, you know, the side of you that goes, eh, I want to try and climb higher. Yeah. I want to try and do a show at the spear, right? The person behind that is very driven, very focused, likes to game, likes to win, likes to figure things out and won't settle until they do. do you think that the relationship with your parents is there's got to be something there's got to be a through line there to the ability to achieve success and then hold it and maintain it and not blow it up yeah i mean i they've been you know there for me every every step of the

fucking way for sure and they like i mean they're coming to every single sphere show you know they come to a ton of shows they've been at every big show i've ever had and yeah yeah they're they're they're they love the music. I send them the music right. Even when I write a demo, you know, I get their take on it. It's like, it's a total kind of therapeutic thing for me to just like be so honest and open with them after having so many years of being the most dishonest person ever. And I think like that healing process is like the most beautiful fucking thing. One of the most beautiful things in my life, you know. And so I cherish it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, they're badass. And it's cool because I think we live in a time where we can actually share these kinds of ideas. Look, I think typically

rock and roll and like EDM. There's this kind of like fantasy idea of what you're supposed to live like if you do that. 100% yeah. And it's everybody else's fantasy. Yeah. Right. Doesn't mean you can't be at a party and enjoy yourself without being all fucked up and incoherent. Yep. Right. I mean, I don't go to fucking parties. I'm not going to lie.

But a party in my mind is like your show. Okay. I love that. Yeah. That's where I find my kind of social life release is like going to playing a Vegas club or like, you know, I've had a ton of residences at Vegas clubs and like random, all my shows, I feel like I get so much out of. Right.

But that's your night at work, but that's somebody else's party. Yeah. They're there to like celebrate. Exactly. Yeah. For sure. And you're doing it and you're clear-minded and you're having a great time. Yeah.

And you're not being an asshole. You're not destroying your self. Yeah. And it doesn't mean you're not having a great time, whatever. And it also doesn't mean that some people are like partying or some people are drinking or some people. But like the idea for me is that we're supposed to be fucked up the whole time. Yeah. And that's not reality.

Yeah. Yeah. Can't live like that. It's unsustainable. No. I mean, there's some like the acceptance. that are just like how have they been doing this for 20 years and they fucking still wake up in 9 a.m. and are like fine. That's crazy. So far from me though. Like no fucking way.

Yeah. If I was if I was out like getting fucked up I'd be to just it would be like a week long adventure. It'd be fucking rock bottom real fast. What I saw in the late 2000s so like 2007, eight, nine, 10. Yep. I was out in the early early years in Hollywood with like it was like, it was like Steve Ayoki. Yeah. It was like all the LA guys before EDM popped off. And then everybody was big. It was crazy.

Yeah. And then it had a run. Yeah. Electronic music was bigger than it ever been. Yeah, for sure. And then it's not that it went down. It's remained big. It was still bigger.

Even like if you could say it was like down years or whatever, it was still bigger than it ever was in the 2000s. 100%. But I feel like it's about to go on another run. That's how. I feel like so many people have said that. And I totally agree. Yeah.

Like even in, I nerd out on like some really crazy bass music and stuff like that. And like it's more of a niche market. But they like the amount of people that buy tickets to go see those shows, even with like artists that aren't, you know, they don't have huge Spotify as or huge socials, but like they're selling 10, 15,000 tickets in Denver. Or it's like, you know, it's such an interesting. It's different than any other genre in that sense where it's like, Tickets can hold your career for 20 years.

Yeah, it's culture for sure. And like, you know, you can play clubs. And there's just like a way to make a living without having to be the typical, like, radio play and all this type of stuff. I would kind of put you in the category of ticket. It's always been the focus. It's tickets first. Tickets first.

You have an amazing, you've built an amazing streaming audience, like 10 million monthly listeners is huge. Yeah. But you built your career. live. Yes. Yeah. And it was always live. And then you also built this, obviously, this music career that's massive, but live it felt like was your, what you loved. 100%. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And I feel like that's, uh, I think there's pros and cons to doing it anyway, like going for hits, you know, going for, and there's, uh, you know, going for social media numbers or

anything. Like, there's no right or wrong way to do it, but for me, it just felt really authentic to be like, you know, the first shows I played, headline shows I played to like four or 500 people. You know, with my music, I really feel like I put myself into it and I have depth to it. And I think fans feel that. And they, you know, the remarks of like your music, help me through this, help me through this. And like, I feel like I just got that in a live atmosphere. like people got this release and this escape and I feel like that became kind of my purpose and my like artistic purposes like make beautiful music that gives people escape give them an opportunity to have that in a live atmosphere that's really really over like awesome and epic so I think

you do it really well you should be proud of yourself no hey I'm stoked well it's hard to build a live like a like a real touring career yeah really fucking hard yeah I had an amazing team too though like We've had the same team since day one. And I think everyone saw that like that was my goal and everyone was on the same page. Like, okay, what's like when we would look at something and like what's our next goal, it's always show related, ticket related. Not really like, let's make a hit. You know, like cool if a song blows up, that's cool. You will have your hits.

It's very organic I found with music when you, as long as you keep making, um, listen, I'm just saying from my, 30 years of watching and doing some of it myself, but also just watching like, all my friends are, I just live in music. So everyone's in music. And you see everyone have hits. And it happens, the moment just comes. Like, as long as you're making shit you love, exactly what you're saying, this is why you're going to, why you're going to continue to build on your success. The Spear shows says everything. I am going all in on making an experience that's only going to happen nine times. Yeah. Right?

In the grand scheme of our touring lives, that's nothing. Nothing, I know. So it's a drop in the bucket show-wise, but I'm making something for another reason, the sake of doing it. Yeah. Because I think it's cool. Yeah. Is always the place to start.

Yeah. It's the same with music. You make music you love. And then one, the songs find their way. Yeah. And you end up with another hit. Or an opportunity falls in your lap and you're hanging out with so on. And they're like, I love your music.

You're like, you should jump on a song. And they do. And it's a hit. Yeah. You know what I mean? So like those things happen organically in an artist's life. Yeah. You can,

you can manufacture hits too. No, for sure. Lots of people do that. That's not my. But when you let music be created. Yeah. And you just keep doing shit like it's a game you're playing because it's fun. Yep.

You will have hits. But the tickets. Yeah. That's the thing that you, like what you're doing with the Spear Show, it's the thing you protect. Just protect. Yeah.

The fans that. are spending their money on your tickets. They're coming to have an experience. Just keep doubling down on the way you did it, from 400 tickets to now and headlining festivals and all that and you bring your best show every time. That's the thing that everybody else thinks the hits bring. They don't.

I know, it's so funny. It's total misconception. The other way around. I mean, it's somewhat true, like you have a big hit and you start getting on, you get a few offers, but it's like you can have a really big career without the hit. You can have, like, if you just have it, in my opinion, if you have a story to tell, if you have,

you know, like branding is huge aspect to it as well. But like, how does that fit in with your, you know, what you believe in and shit like that, you know? Or you're just insanely gifted at producing and you have such a different sound than anybody else. Yeah, it does take all types, right? And there are guys who are really good producers and they just produce hits. Yeah.

And they keep a couple for themselves. Yeah. which is smart and it's cool. But like if you look across the genre or even just music period, not even just in electronic music, it takes all types. Yeah. But what you've done is absolutely something that people want to achieve,

but it's really hard. Yeah. Because you got to do a lot of shows. Yeah. And you got to start from zero. Yeah. If you really want to do it. Yeah.

You have to do it what you did. You have to start from fucking small. Yeah. And just grind and grind and grind and grind. That whole first like four, it was like probably two to four years for me of like grind from like 200 ticket rooms to, you know, 5,000. That grind is fucking sweet though. Like I would redo that right now if I could.

Like it's so tight. Yeah, I remember that too. It's so fun, man. And it's like everything is new and exciting and every show that you do that's a little bit bigger. And like the on sale happens and you're like, I just love that. I loved it. Yeah, it's cool. Selling out tours.

the first time, the second time. It's cool. What would you say to a kid who wants to be like you? They want to be a producer, DJ, touring artist, build a culture of live. What would you, what would you tell that kid? In today's era, I think lock yourself in the studio, first of all. And with social media and stuff like that, like I feel like you just have to like first find your sound. Like, what are you going for musically? Even if it's like, like I was doing SoundCloud remixes for the first year, two years. And I would just like look at hype machine or like YouTube and see what song, like find a song that I was like, oh, that's fucking awesome song. But I want it to have this.

And like nowadays I would say do that, but put it out on TikTok every like two fucking two songs a week, you know, to uploads and like try to get some sort of like it's challenging as fuck today. it's hard. It's hard work. It's such, you have to like put things, things and put it out in a visual way that stands out. Like, you have to have a visual aspect of that now that is going to, if you're scrolling and you see something. Like, I do see some early artists that are like, oh, this is interesting. Like, you can totally see a brand there and there's like a, you go to their page and you're like, this is very nicely put together. Like, I feel like you have to have an artistic eye for that. Talent. Yeah. It's, it's a grind. And then that goes to like, Thank you. But if you do that for a year, if you're making good music, I guarantee you there's going to be fans that are going to start catching on. And then you make things for those fans and yourself, in my opinion.

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when you started you were working every day oh yeah I think we were putting like at least a remix out

every thing three or four weeks. Okay. So I... And then albums. I feel like albums are huge. Albums are big. Huge.

Right. Once you get that fan... They're like 10 polls. Yeah. But don't go out like unless you have some sort of connection to some, you know, like if you have a connection to a major label and you know that you're, they're going to push you super hard and you come out with like a perfectly branded. That's a very rare situation.

Right. That's a connection based thing. If you're just kind of like I was, living in Denver, not knowing fucking anyone, it's like you kind of have to don't just start with an album. But, you know, like, I don't think that's, unless, unless you get lucky. But, yeah, I think you start with trying to find your sound and trying to, and like making interesting things for social media nowadays. Yeah, it's like, I think it's like what everyone has to do.

Yeah. That I found the through line with every guy like you. I work every fucking day. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Do something every day. Get up.

Be creative. Be smart. Go forward. Do what you can with what you got where you are at right now. Don't wait until you get signed and then you think you're going to make an album and then you're going to be big. No. Start now. Put something out.

How did that do? Okay, fix it. Do better. Put something out. Every day you're working on something. That is what gets lost. Every day is. Take that shitty show that you think is not a big deal.

It actually is a big deal because it's the only show that will book you. Yeah. So take that show. Yeah. And then take that one and make it. Take every show. And you need the experience of playing. in front of 10 people or four people or zero people.

Like you did that. Fuck yeah. Oh yeah. I played some terrible shows, bro. You did 50 people. I did one time there were 400 and then zero because I went on. I was it was a clear to room. You went on after.

I went no, I went on. I was booked randomly to play this frat party and I was booked with Lil Uzi Vert and I was opening. And then like an hour before I went on, they said Lil Uzi Vert didn't show up. Oh. And so I went on and they're all chanting like, oohzy. And I go on and I play my set. And I cleared the place out, bro.

It's like five minutes, zero. Fuck yeah. Yeah. It was, dude, dude, you need that shit. Awesome. It's so funny. But that's what people need to understand. Yeah.

Because they're going to come to your stadium show. Yeah. And they think that it was because you got a record deal or you got a, industry plan or some show. No, you got to grow. To be big, you have to grow. Yeah. You start small.

and you grow into a fucking oak tree, right? But you start as an acorn. And it's everyday process. It's like watching grass grow sometimes. You're like knocking on the door, knocking on the door. When I sit with you and I look at your success, I see a quality that like I kind of see in everybody that's hugely successful is like they aren't afraid to work.

They all started playing for zero people and 50 people and 400 people and they all enjoyed it. So did I. They make the hard work look easy because they've been doing it for so long. It's not a thing. That's what it takes, a baseline. And then to continue to have success is exactly what you're doing. You're pointing up.

You're doing shit that you're entertaining yourself. So I don't know. I think it's great. It's cool to sit with you. Who would you say are like your heroes in electronic music? It's a good question. I mean, production-wise. And or music.

Yeah, Scrillix is like the goat of producers. fucking awesome um i love cascade uh such an awesome fucking human i love testo also an awesome den he lives in denver he's the awesome guy testo is one of the is the first like show edm show i went to 2009 legend yeah i think like really big musical sonically influences are like glitch mob uh seven lions porter robinson a lot of that stuff odessa's amazing live show odessa and rufus six I let like now when I turn on music a lot of times it's like Rufus stuff just to vibe out to golf too yeah yeah I love that type of stuff that's cool but I also think like rock hugely influenced by a ton of rock bands like bring me and Lincoln Park and a lot of like even like you guys blink all the a lot of pop

punk back in the day I love that shit I'll listen to that stuff all the time good songs or songs yeah yeah and there's nothing about like a good just wall of guitars like good like it's it's it's like synth wall like I do that with since and such a satisfying full sound yeah it hits yeah sonically it hits yeah especially when like you know the lyrics and the and the melody like I'm huge fan of just like emotionally hitting shit you know that like just like why why does this feel so intense and good and there's a lot of that I think in metalcore like pop punk all that stuff I think has that aspect do you have a favorite top line favorite top line like have your ever heard, you know, I think on, with a lot of electronic music. I mean, titanium's hard to

beat. Yeah, really hard to be. Titanium's fucking fire. Yeah. That is one of the best vocals out there. I mean, yeah. She's voice is also. Yeah. Incredibly. She's one of the best songwriters of all time. So sick. Vocal and her ability to write a melody. Yeah. Because melody for me, I'm all melody. Yeah. I care about lyrics. The older I get, the more I care about lyrics. I used to really just want things to be catchy. And I didn't care much about lyrics. My brother was more a lyric. And as I've gotten older, I care more about lyrics. But I fucking love a good melody. Yeah, same. It's my favorite. Yep. I totally can feel that. That's cool, man. Yeah. So did we cover everything your, I'm chilling. Good. That was awesome. Dude, I had such a good time chatting. Me too. Thanks for

thanks for. Thanks, bro. We got to go play golf. Dude, say the words. I'm down. Yeah, I'm back here end of November for a few weeks. Okay. Yeah. So let's get after it. Let me know. I'm down. Play golf. Okay, great. Money. Dude, thank you. Thank you for watching Artist Friendly. If you liked this episode, please make sure you hit the like button.

You follow the channel and please share it with your friends. We appreciate the support. That is why this show exists because you listen to it. Thank you guys. We'll see you next time.