Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Jedidiah Jenkins

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

New York Times bestselling author Jedidiah Jenkins sits down with Joel Madden on this week's episode of Artist Friendly. Jenkins is an LA-based writer who launched his career at the nonprofit Invisible Children and, in the ensuing years, has transformed into a bestselling author. He’s released several books, including To Shake the Sleeping Self and Like Streams to the Ocean. His latest, Mother, Nature, is a gripping memoir that documents a mother-son bond, where they retrace a 5,000-mile route that his mother first traveled as part of the Walk Across America book trilogy. Jenkins also serves as the executive editor of Wilderness magazine, and his work has appeared in publications like The Paris Review and Playboy. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to New York Times best-selling author, Jedediah Jenkins, about his new book, Mother Nature. We're talking about the book, Our Friendship, Life, and Much More. Let's go. Jed. Hi. Jeddaya. What a privilege. Jeddaya. Okay, so you're a writer, and we're going to talk about your books, but we'll get to that. Perfect. That is the most important part, but also the least important part. Who cares?

What are you talking about? Right. Anything. I don't even know where to start. Our lives have too many angles. We're very interconnected. I know. We're connected through Nicole.

We're connected through a bunch of friends. And we've become friends over the years. Was I friendly when we first met? Of course. But you were, you pretend. your energy is what I would say. I explode my energy in every direction and you are like where can I spend it and who am I spending it on? You've never ever been anything but an angel but you're not like song and dance like let's do a show. You're like doing your thing and and Nicole very much sells you

that way. Right. She's like just just so you know. Which is so fun because like I used to call it a reward friend like someone who doesn't give it to you right away. You can earn it. Like, Like I will tell you, I got to tell you, that is me. It does take time with me. Yeah. There's like a scarcity to energy. And I will tell you, the highlight of my year was when your son said, I want Jed to come over and play cards. Yeah.

He loves you. I am so intimidated by anyone that's under 15. Yeah. And he is so selective with his words and his energy. Yeah. Like me times 100. Yeah. Yeah.

And then he's like, can Jed come over and play Egyptian? Ratscrew. When I got that text, it was like Barack Obama called me into the office. I was like, this is my moment. That's how it feels when he- And I don't like children, I want them nowhere near me. But when I'm chosen by a hard-won child, then I believe that our species is worth it. He doesn't fake it. No. So it is cool. He loves you. He loves playing that game for him. But it does take time, right? For those that don't know what Egyptian Ratscrew is, it is a card game where you have to like it's very fast-paced and you have to slap doubles in sandwiches. Google it.

It's very fun to play with your family and it gets like grandma rowdy. So it does get everyone rowdy. It's very fun. And Nicole now loves that's her party trick. Yeah, it's so fun. Yeah, she brings a deck of cards to any party and she's like, do you want to learn a game? Because you can learn it in 10 seconds. It's not even like, but you can get good at it.

Nicole is very good at it. And it's fun. Yeah. It's great. You yell, you slap. A lot of fun. Okay, what's next? Yeah, I was just thinking about where to start with you, because I know a little bit about your, I know, you know, obviously we've talked about your life.

But I've heard a lot about how Nicole always says, like, you guys, your upbringing was so similar. If we were in an elevator, we had 30 floors to get to. And I was a stranger who said, oh, you write books. Tell me about your book. What is the like, could you sum this book up? Did you hit the 30th floor or did you push every button? Pushed every other button. Okay.

It's about my mom is a conservative Trump supporting evangelical Jesus loving Bible adoring southern woman. Okay. I am a California coastal elite liberal trash, snowflake, gay writer. Okay. And so we is now is this how you feel the world sees the both of you or is this a funny way of explaining who you both are? Both. And kind of true. It's the stereotypes that are all true.

Right. I mean, I'm not a snowflake, but I'm not, I'm very not sensitive. But we are just very different people. Right. And yet we love each other very, very much. And I see in a world that becomes progressively. more polarized is that but it's just everything is such a binary if you're not with me you're against me if you're not safe you're dangerous if you're not good you're evil and there there's

an obsession with like group clarification of like are you one of us or are you not are you dangerous you with us or you get yeah and and i find that the true really the election of donald Trump like clarified this country and a lot of families split apart. I know a lot of people who stopped talking to family members. Yeah, it was a tough time from just the clarity of did you or did you not vote for this person? Right. Because I always was like, okay, well, if you're queer and you grow up in a religious household, a lot of queer kids have falling out with their family over religion. That's like something normal in the queer community. But then I noticed what what felt not normal or new was that like political divides were causing families to rip apart

in a way that it felt new. And just like observing, this is a weird thing about reaching the fourth floor, which is what I call your 40s, is that like you've lived long enough to really like see the patterns, like see that, oh, it was different in the 90s than it is now. Like things get worse or better. They don't just get better. They don't just, it's like different things change. Some ways they get worse.

In some ways, you could say they get better. It's interesting. In some ways, you could say we've come a long way. And in other ways, you could say we've digressed in some ways. A hundred percent. And it's weird to be old enough to actually have seen that in my own life and not just read about it in a book. But I've just seen that. Sorry, we must be on like the 27th floor.

No, it's a slow elevator. And I love how you explain things. It's really interesting. I had Cleo Wade on here. And listening to a writer speak, it, You do have a way of like writing while you talk. Yeah. Maybe it's just how you're brain. Well, she's amazing. We both, we both communicate, like, communication is our job and into words.

So it's, and we're both like extroverted people. She protects her energy more than I do, but like. You have plenty. Whatever. So I would say, I observed that. And then people in my life would see my relationship with my mom because we have a very fun time together and we love each other and we talk all the time. Yeah. And they would say, how do you do that? I can't do that. And the name Mother Nature, it feels like a play on words with your mother and nature and nature nurture and all of the complex mother relationships you have. We all have a relationship with our mom, some better than others, some more affectionate than others, but absolutely all parent-child.

The parent-child relationship is complex, no matter who you are. No matter who. Right. Even like in a world where you don't have a mother, you were abandoned, you were this or that you were in the foster system, that relationship still has to be accounted for. Well, it still is you were born to someone that is your mother, regardless of it, whether they claimed you.

No matter what the relationship is, You have to reconcile your relationship with your mother and your father. I was reading this review in The New Yorker of this random Russian something. And the guy said, and this is in the first quote in the book, I just read this in an article and I was like, well, this is everything. This rupture between parents and their children is what happens over and over with every new generation. There is nothing for it, no remedy, no answer. Who is right?

They're both right. And they're both wrong. and neither will ever understand the other. And I was just like, that is, because every generation, my mom had this huge rift with her mother, but the rift there was that her mother never told her she loved her. She was so hard on her.

So what's interesting is that my mom can't accept my sexuality, but she has told me she loved me unconditionally every day of my life. I grew up both of my parents telling me they loved me. And I found out when my grandparents died that my, my dad's dad and my mom's mom never told them they loved them ever. And both of my parents have told me every day of my life they love me. So there's progress. But then right when you think you've made progress as a generation, the next generation

is on to something else. Like, well, I like butt sex. And you're like, oh no. Like that's not in the Bible. Or it is. So is there any part of you, I'm sure you've been asked this before by maybe some of your friends who are maybe more rigid in their stance on people and what they accept, what they don't accept, what they get to choose what they accept about people and what they don't accept.

Is there any part of you that ever has felt like or feels like, well, no, you can't have your cake you need it too. You can't pick what you love about me and what you won't, what you deny about me. And I say that in knowing where you come from. Yeah. And you come from the South and I come from a place that is very southern and its nature. And so I understand someone that I understand people who don't understand what it means to be gay. I understand.

Yeah. I know those people. And I'm not saying I agree with their stance or, but it is almost like a part of their cells. I know. They can understand. And so it is big for them to accept it. Why? And that's why.

So the two part of your question is because like my sexuality is so core to my identity and I fought it for so long. Right. And so there comes a point where I understand when people are like, if you can't accept my sexuality, I cannot accept you in my life. I feel cared for and unsafe. That's kind of what, yeah, because I know people like that too. Totally. friends who have had to have that conversation with their family. And I understand them having that conversation.

But there isn't a line. It isn't black and white. Like when I talk to you, I also understand you love your mom. Yeah. I mean, this is the equation, the calculus that everybody has to do when there's a strong boundary. Right. Is I could draw that line. But I think I built a life for myself.

I built my own safety and my own adulthood and I built a chosen family of which you're a part of like people that support and love me. Of course. And that gave me the strength to stand and love her in a way that does not hurt me. Right. Like you meet her where she's at,

but you also understand the parts of her that might hurt you and you organize around those parts. It's charity in some ways because I believe one day she'll understand what. what it means for you to love her. Because a lot of times we're positioned with our parents, like they've done us this great service of bringing us into the world. I agree with that.

I was raised old school. Your elders. You say, yes, sir, no, ma'am. You know, you respect your elders. As adults, though, now once we get to a certain place, now I'll always have respect for my elders, but I will always accept what they do, what they say. And but now how I approach a disagreement or something,

something that I don't like that they're doing is is with respect with love but with boundaries. Yeah. And armed with my perspective and information that I have and kind of, I think there is a, what I see you doing, it feels to me like very similar to like my background. Yeah. So the way we have to organize around our differences with our parents and older people in our life from, I would say that come from a different time. Yeah.

I think it's also informed us how to deal with the current world. Because there's so many people, like you said, that draw lines and separate and clarify from each other. I am not like, fuck you. That's not how I feel. It's just not how I feel. But I am like, no, no, let's experience one another. Let's relate to one another.

And I guarantee if you relate to me, you'll understand my perspective and you'll understand why I'm in the position I'm in. and then I'll relate to you as well and I'll have some empathy for where you're at. I say it all the time, I really think in our real lived life and our lived experience, we relate to the people around us

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Well, they say that empathy, the equation for empathy, distance in time, distance on earth, and then

likeness to self. So the more or the closer those things are, the more empathy you have. So if it is a

person who looks like you that lives on your street, in your cul-de-sac, right now, you have maximum empathy for them. Wow. If it is a person that looks completely different than you from a different language in a different culture that lived 10,000 years ago on the other side of the earth,

you have much less empathy because you don't feel that. Right. You're like, I'm sure that was a human, but what do we have in common? Literally nothing. And so that explains a lot of the, when horrible things happen on the other side of the planet and, like, Western countries don't react the same they would if there was a terrorist attack. in Paris, that equation is in play. And most people don't think about that. I honestly, I've never heard that before and I love it. So it's distance. Distance in place,

meaning on the planet, distance and time, meaning is it now? And likeness to self. Wow. And so what I'm saying is the only thing you can really change, well, you can, through travel, you can change distance in space. So if you go to Thailand and spend time there, you really connect with people. And now you have a profound feeling. for them. It's also moving outside of the zone that you're in to you can expand likeness to self. And I consider myself like a bridge builder because I was raised in a conservative Christian private school in the South in Tennessee and had that horrible experience that queer people have where around seventh grade you realize you're different and the difference gets you made fun of.

and can you hide it? Can I change my voice? Can I change my mannerism so that I don't feel scared? Did you try? Absolutely. Wow. And the thing is, and this is where gay kids separate. Some kids are so fabulous that they can't hide it.

Right, it's harder to. And they're bullied, and they just create a click or whatever with other kids like that. And that's the kids of last resort. Right. And God bless, they discover a totally different life than me, where I was able to just completely, mostly hide. And then how did you do that? I decided, I realized that I was funny.

Right, you are funny. And in seventh grade. And so I said, if I can make the jocks and the cheerleaders laugh and like me, I'm safe. Right. Now, this is not like something I wrote on a dry race board. It's something I felt. Yeah, it's instinct. And so I just decided to do that.

And I joined every club. I was student body president. I ran everything. I did. And it worked. Like I made friends with these people. I made them laugh. And at the time,

your mom probably loved it. Love. I mean, our house was the social epicenter of Middle Tennessee. And, you know, I would be in the musical and the entire front row

was the football team. Right. cheering for me. It was like very sweet. But I look back and I realize, oh, that was a defense mechanism. Like I was insulating my life from being scared

of that very moment in seventh grade where I realize I'm in trouble. Wow. And there's something different about me that's dangerous. What's seventh grade? Is that 12, 13? Yeah.

Right. That's tough. Yeah. This is getting back to your point of like, I don't say fuck you. I say how can I expand likeness to self? So in my experience of befriending all those straight jocks and then I came out to them senior year of high school,

all of the scariest straight people you've ever met were like instantly my number one advocate. And they're like, you're going to move to California and come back with a husband. You know, they were like so excited for me because they loved me. Right. And all it took was just giving them a personal story and an experience with a gay person that they loved that changed their life. And I think so much of the people who don't understand sexuality or don't understand a difference,

the differentness is they don't have personal, emotional experience with it. Right. So it doesn't humanize. When you say that I think my first thought is that's unfair. My second thought is, well, if we take fair out of it, right? Because it's just not fair. That you have to do that. I mean, yeah, I'm five foot ten. I can't reach the very top of some shelves. That's unfair, I guess. That's unfair as well. But it just is. But then you go to the next thing, which is there is something about the relationship you gave people. with you, made them root for you, and therefore took out the difference. Yeah.

And I think also, I was talking to Orville Peck about this. And he said something to me. Where did he grow up? Did he say? He grew up in South Africa and then moved to Canada when he was 14 to Vancouver. And it's a funny story. We met when he was 15 years old. He must have only been in Vancouver for a year.

And he was playing in a punk band with his best friend. And they were sitting on a bench in Vancouver, and I was there making a record, 2005, 2006. And we were making Good Morning Revival. And it would have been 2005. And I had gotten dental surgery. I had a root canal. I had terrible dental problems in the early part of my career because my dental, I didn't have great dental care when I was a kid. Oh, yeah.

Lots of problems, hereditary, all of it. So I had gotten. gotten a root canal and I couldn't eat anything solid. And I had just been through a painful, like, three-day dental emergency. And I finally had gotten this root canal and I was sitting on a bench probably maybe on some like Vicodin or something. God only knows. But I was eating a blueberry muffin because it was like the softest thing I could find.

And I was starving because I couldn't eat for three days because my teeth and the root canal, all that. So I meet these two kids that were like these little punk kids. And they sit down and talk to me for like a half hour. And you remember this. I do remember this. And I never thought about it again. And then I met Orville and I was a huge fan.

Early stage of his, you know, the latest chapter of the Orville Peck story. Yeah. Maybe five years ago, we meet. And he says, you're not going to remember this. But I met you when I was 15 in Vancouver, 14 or 15 in Vancouver outside of a coffee shop. You were eating a blueberry of muffin. I was sitting on a bench, eating a blueberry muffin. I had just had dental surgery.

That is amazing. And it's so strange how I remember that. Anyways, I love Orville. He's such a great guy, such a great artist, such an icon. But he said to me, every first experience around love is shameful. Yeah. So every first anything that you got to have where you had a crush on that girl and she smiled at you. Yeah.

Or you got, you finally had the courage to tell her, you know how you felt or the first kiss or the first time you held hands anything he's like all of that is just there's shame around it and it's somewhere or another you're keeping it secret from someone or you know and i thought about it really stuck with me i took that home last night and it really like hit me to think like that to think that any person has to go through this pain all these most exciting moments and think about like you go to Christmas and you see your grandparents and they're like kissing any girls like who are you dating and then like as you reach junior year you keep saying nobody grandma like just sticking to schoolwork whatever it is like and you're just tired of these

questions and you're so scared that people are going to find out and you live this has been a big motivating factor in my whole life and I think a major reason I became a memoirist is I lived the development of my brain and my teen age years so afraid of the gotcha moment. Someone's going to find my search history, which I'm sure they did. Someone's going to find like, I don't even know what. They're going to find my diary. They're going to find my whatever. They're going to overhear me talking to somebody. And I was so... Do you keep a diary? I did, but I invented a language when I was in eighth grade, like a code. Like I have tattoos in these letters. They're like, no one can read it but me.

So I would journal in a language only I could read. Wow. Because I. of this. That's crazy. So I would just like. The human brain works. So I was like, I want to speak, but I'm going to speak to only myself because I'm afraid anyone will read it. Yeah.

So. Do you write about that? No. I've never actually told anybody that. Exclusive on this podcast. So I, wait, let me find what I was going to say. Searching, searching. So you developed this code, journaling.

Oh, I lived, I lived in such fear of the gotcha moment that someone's going to find out who I really am and I'm going to lose all my friends. I'm going to lose my family. Everyone's gone. I was just like and what's so weird is the buildup to graduating high school, which I loved high school, was the buildup to D-Day, to the atomic bomb of, because I knew this is a, I don't know if Maryland was like this. I knew I was going to USC college in Los Angeles. Okay. I'd never been to LA, but I knew that it was the land of fruits and nuts. Yeah. And, and that if I went to- We are fruity out here.

If I went to college in Tennessee, I mean in California, and I came back next summer, fabulous and gay, they would, all my friends in my community would think California changed me. Right.

So I knew I had a deadline. I need to come out before I go to college so they know this is who I am and who I've been. So like school is coming to an end and like, oh my God, I've got to tell everybody. And I just lived in this fear.

And what's so wild when I think back on my sweet cherub 19 year old self, I went into each of those conversations as a saying goodbye. Like you'll never talk to me again. And I'm moving to California to start a new life of people I don't know.

It was like so, I was so deeply convinced. And no one said, all my friends, I would, the amount of tears I sobbed my last semester of college of joy that they didn't walk out

and that they said they loved me and it was actually amazing. Did anyone in your life say they knew? No one said they knew. Someone said they suspected. Okay. I mean, quite a few said they suspected. Others said they had no idea.

Hmm. Because I had no idea when I met you. I am, shut up. I am very, like, I was very, like, wacky and whatever. Right. You are a comedian in some parts. But actually, you say that, but you're deep. So even when you joke, you really, you're one of the,

the friends that I can talk about anything with and we can get on any subject and you share like real it's poetic a lot of times and stuff you and cleo it's interesting I love talking to you guys and your writers and I don't know if that's a characteristic of a lot of writers I I've only known a few writers maybe I mean I guess I've known more than a couple writers but when I think about someone who like this is what I do I write you write books such a lost art form you can only do one over a long period of time. It's such a, you're not doing, people don't write books for the fame and the money.

If that comes, it's as a byproduct of success, great. You guys are acclimated to the world a different way and you organize your thoughts and you put them down and you share your lens in a, it's a lost art form in my opinion. So when we talk, I find a through, I do find similar,

qualities of like how you guys listen and the way you respond and when you respond it is it's it's poetic and it's its own way it's interesting thank you but you can talk about anything i you're one of my friends that i could bring up yeah i could say how i feel about something you don't get offended i don't think i'm offensive person but like i don't always agree with everyone yeah out here yeah yeah yeah yeah Well, we come from, A, we come from a similar background, and B, I would be curious to talk to Cleo about this. She's from the South, too.

Yeah, I know. Louisiana, right? Nola. Yeah. And I think that I became a very curious person in that era of like, I almost credit being gay with this, because when you wake up into a world that wasn't made for you, and you look around and you're like,

oh damn like when when he holds hands with her everyone is stoked like this is interesting that doesn't work for me and so what my whatever it was my coping mechanism was in that moment i developed this like satellite camera above my own life where i'm like 30 000 foot view of everything how do things work how do people behave why do they do that what is the motivation there why are they interested in that and not this. So I became this just like obsessive student of everything. Because if I was Johnny High School, whatever, and everything happened just perfectly for me,

not that that happens for anybody, but that's... We see it from our perspective, though. When you've been an outcast in some way, you look at someone else's life and it looks perfect to you. Yeah. And of course it's not. But I would say there's certain things that I would, that I bet you they've never really thought about

because why would they? It's just da-da-da-da-da, like A plus B equals C. So it just turned me into a student of life, and you are a very curious person as well. And have you ever, like, diagnosed yourself why you think it's your nature or you think it's your nurture? Why I'm so curious. Inquisitive and like... I think I grew up in a very constricted, rigid style of parenting. My mom was very religious.

And I think she was worried about all of us, about, you know, and I really do think it came from a place of love. So I'm not mad at her at all. In fact, I think it gave me a lot of great qualities that I still, that sustained me. It's like I really do think that the religion that I kept a lot of in my life, but I refuse to conform, right? And so I realize that I'm a nonconformist. And you learned that from feeling constricted as a kid. Yeah. And I also learned that, but I still hold the values. So I'm a value-driven person, but I do not believe in perfection, and I do not believe that if you go and you open anyone's closet up and dig through all their shit, you're

going to find something that you could take out into the world and parade around and embarrass them. And like, if you think that anyone out there doesn't have some shit that they had to work through or mistakes they made, but I think I chose a career that was, that had no rules. So I chose a career that I didn't have to be perfect. Yeah. Like people don't expect you to be perfect. It's actually boring to be perfect.

It's cool to be like wild. It's cool to have fucking problems in that. Yeah. Now the problem with that is they're real problems and you need to work through them. Yeah, yeah. And so if you have a problem with with drugs or alcohol or you have a problem with yourself, you have a self-esteem problem or you have trauma, you still have to work. You still have to deal with it.

It doesn't matter if you chose to be like a rock and roller. Yeah. And to everyone else, it might be cool that you're in pain, but at some point you have to excavate all that stuff and deal with that pain or you're going to end up dead because you're going to be medicating it with something that likely kills you. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. I'm taking over. Yeah, please. The experience of your life and the career that you're in, I find like both you and your wife to be the best parents, the best communicators with each other,

best friends, and I'm not saying you're perfect, but I just see an incredible functionality with your life. It's just very beautiful to witness. But I wouldn't guess that from your line of work of what you just said, of like being a wild child is part of the brand, which is actually, those are real problems. And then those spin up and all of a sudden you're 40, 50, 60, and you're like still upside down in a ditch. Like, I don't know, like how do you find that, Making it out the other side of your career into a true adulthood and a family man is difficult, rare, or actually a lot of your peers have grown up as well. A lot of the people that I spend time with and our friends, I find to be really good parents,

really loving parents, and I think it's values. So I think we share values. But also, like, we believe in privacy. So we do have problems. Yeah. And we have dealt with problems. Yeah. And we have dealt.

but we believe in privacy. So everyone deserves to have privacy. Yeah. I'm not going to hold something against someone if they went in a private room and screamed whatever terrible thing they wanted to say. You know, if you think of like, what is Tourette's, right? They can't control. Yeah.

Right. And so it's interesting because if you think about that, you cannot hold it against someone if they thought something or they had an urge, right? What we hold against people is did they control the urge, right? So I'm not going to hold it against someone for making a mistake if they correct it. But I also believe they should have the privacy to deal with it. And so I think we have, we share values. We believe in our ability to kind of have the privacy to work through our problems.

together individually and collectively, right? And we know that we're not, we believe in one another more than than anyone like maybe difference we might have or a mistake we may have made or what learning we have to do. There's a learning curve too with all of this. So that we don't account for. So someone gets famous and then suddenly they're supposed to be able to handle it. Instead of all of us going like, whoa, there's a big learning curve there. those first couple years might be a little embarrassing or thoughtless or all the things, right?

So I think like we just, we're always going to try and project positive things into the world and represent our family with thoughtful, classy way because I think everyone should. You're representing, like your name, you should try to represent it the best you can. Yeah. And but then also in relationship to everyone else, I think me, personally, I just have respect for them. So I'm going to, the benefit of the doubt is that I'm going to be respectful towards you and your opinions, your views, because that's, I believe in that. And I also, I think I appreciate coming from the opposite side of the spectrum and going and landing

in a place that's the opposite of where I grew up, I love this place. I love the people. I love the opportunities that's afforded me. And it gave me a wife and two kids. And so I'm forever grateful for California and Los Angeles in particular because I met my wife here and I've raised my kids here and it's been really good to me. I may not fully agree sometimes with some of the stuff. Yeah. But I accept it and I participate. And I'm not on a mission to force anyone to feel the way I feel or think the way I think because I accept that it's good to be different from each other. Have you heard of order, disorder, reorder?

Have you heard this? No, but I want to hear about it. So these are the stages of enlightenment. Okay. And so it involves parenting. Feels like you might explode my brain. It's really nice. Okay.

So order, so when you're a child, a young child, life is way more complicated than you can fathom. Right. And so you don't need to know the why of everything because it doesn't, you know, like, mom says don't touch the stove. Don't put your head in the microwave, whatever. You don't need to understand that, Mike, I mean, whatever, you can explain something. You don't need to know the science. A rule is a rule.

Don't do that. You accept it. Yeah. That what you're doing is you're creating an order because the world, being a human, discovering that you can walk and you've got to be potty trained is so overwhelming that you need the adults to give you a structure to make the world make sense. Mm-hmm. This is order.

Then, and so Father Richard Rohr who taught me this, he says, order is basically everything needs a hard and fast. rule. And that's kind of where conservatives stay. They're comfortable in that. They like when the world makes perfect sense. Right. The next stage is disorder where you realize, well, I know that's a rule, but we don't have to do it. Like, I know you said don't do drugs, but like magic mushrooms are amazing. Like I really met God. So what now? So there's a, and that's like the stage of deconstruction. So you take disorder. Disorder. You like take apart all these rules. Sometimes it's very painful to the person who gave you that order.

They told you that Jesus died for your sins and this is how it is. And if you don't do it, you go to hell and you go, I don't know. Like, I was reading this other book and they're like, don't read that book. It's like, that is disorder and deconstruction. And sometimes, and the progressives can get stuck there where you're taking everything apart. Right. And you get stuck there and you're just dissing everything. And then the true stage of enlightenment is reorder where you take the bathwater out and keep the baby.

and you realize everything has a place, everything has a role, you're not mad at anybody. You don't think everything is right, but you're at peace with the world because you're at peace with what is, and you just want it to, you're at peace with yourself because you're no longer, you're no longer in order and you're afraid of chaos, and you're no longer in disorder and you're raging against the machine. You're at reorder, and these are the stages.

And I think about that so much in terms of my very religious childhood. I wanted to be, there's a thing in queer, male queer world called Best Boy Syndrome. What is that? Which is when you realize that you're gay and you're in trouble for existing, you subconsciously say, how do I survive? And so you become the best.

You become valedictory and you become this. And you see a lot of gay men are like making tons of money. Really successful, yeah. And that is like a thing where they're like, you don't think I'm good? I'll prove to you I'm better. Best dressed, best spoken. Best, yeah, that makes a lot sense.

And so I had a lot of that best boy syndrome. But you're like discovering that a lot of these things are reactions to the thing that came before. And ultimately, the goal, as I deconstructed my faith and tried to be the perfect Christian, my best boy, I knew the Bible better than anybody. I was like, I didn't have my first kiss until I was 28. I didn't have sex until I was 30. Wow. Because I was like, oh, I'm the best. boy and I'm waiting for God truly waiting for God to bring a woman into my life that I'm attracted

to. I was like, I haven't met every woman. Like maybe, maybe I'm in love with somebody that lives in Amazon. I don't know. I just have to go there. So it took me a long time to stop that best boy. Oh my God. Yeah. Is there any part of you that mourns for the years you felt maybe you lost to that? Yes. Oh. Yes. And. I'm mourn and I'm mad and I don't wish that upon the next generation, which is why I rage against the machine and write the books that I do. Because I really write these books for my 22-year-old self. Right.

Letters to yourself. Yeah, I wish he had this book to read. But what is so interesting is I was spending that time investing in my friendships in my life. I wasn't like having my heart broken. you know, I wasn't like writing Taylor Swift lyrics with my life. I was just having the best time with my friends and pursuing career and learning what I'm good at. And I will tell you when I had my first kiss at 28, I wasn't a bag of teenage chemicals.

I was a man who knew who he was. Right. And that kiss, there's a saying the longer the waiting, the sweeter the kiss. Yeah. That kiss was so insane. Yeah. It was so insane. I like can teleport there.

It was the day. Probably better than my first kiss. Yeah. It was the day that the United States killed Osama bin Laden, which is very random. Wow. But.

So you had a bin Laden kiss. Yeah, I know. The universe demands balance. So sweet. Blah, blah, blah. All that to say. I mourn, but I also have had the most amazing life.

And it's really hard to say if I took out this ingredient, would the meal be as good? Right. I don't know. I didn't know that about you. Yeah. Wow.

I know so I've spent my 30s being a wild. It's funny because I don't, the, the, the person that I know, right, that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, that I'm friends with is so fun and in the group, I would have imagined you'd had tons of relationships and, you know, it's, it's crazy. Well, it's, I've had, and now I'm sure you have had tons of relationships and. Yeah, I've had a few. They've been great. But I do feel, I do feel romantically delayed. Right. Like, I feel romantically. about 28. Right.

Even though I'm 40. And so that like, which is fine. Probably why you look so young. I also sleep 14 hours a day, just kidding. You know, I was going to ask you about that, about why you write. Like, what's the motivation behind? Like, why write a book? And I always wonder with artists who the hell told you, who the hell told you, who the

hell told you you could do this. Yeah. Right. Like, think about that first moment where you're like, I'm going to write a book, right? Yeah. Who the hell do you think you are? Right. So real.

When you think about that, like, like, who told you, who told me I could be in a band? Who the hell do I think I am that I could write some songs and who cares, right? That's a real moment for all of us. And I think, and for people listening, you know, to this, a lot of people that listen are trying to be artists, trying to be musicians, building. businesses are trying to be healthier uh they're all trying to organize their lives more not less they're trying to be more themselves not less they're trying to be more of it of something they want to be not less so i tend to choose guests based on my own inspiration by them because i think the people

listening get a lot out of the people that come here that have accomplished things you're accomplished writer and you're accomplished in your life. I mean to to and just sitting here in this first you know, uh, half of this conversation, everyone listening can hear the journey of this person has not been easy. Right. And then to think, okay, and now throw in the idea that they're going to be a writer. They didn't choose to be a doctor, a lawyer. There's a clear path for if you want to be a lawyer, if you want to be a doctor. Not an easy path, but it's clear. I'm going to be an artist. Yeah. And then I'm going to monetize it and make a life out of it and build a life that I can live inside of and that's sustainable, virtually impossible by. Yeah. And even embarrassing to even

admit you want to do. Embarrassing to admit you want to do, especially at a young age. Who am I? Yeah. And even more embarrassing at an older age. Yeah. Right. So anyone out there that's listening that has dreamed of being a writer but hasn't been, but say, let's say they're 37. Yeah. They're not 21. Yeah. When you hear a 21, you're old say, I want to be a painter. I want to be a writer. You go, good luck, kid. Yeah, good luck kid. Now here's the things you should go do. And you go, they might make it. Yeah. At 37, you go, hmm? Did you just? My business is a little different than yours because my business is an old man's business. You get better over time. Yeah. Like, if I see a book and it's written by a 21 year old,

I'm like, what the hell do you know? Yeah. What do you, is this a coloring book? And then, but then if they're 47 or whatever, even like authors that I love, I'll look at their opus and I'm like, oh, they wrote this when they were 25. Right. I'm going to start with the one they wrote when they're 37 because they lived a little more. There's more in there. Who's your icon? I love Pormack McCarthy. I love John Steinbeck. I love James Baldwin. I love Mary Oliver. I love Wendell Berry. Well, so can I answer the question of... Who told you you could do it? And if you told yourself, what was the moment and why do you write? Why do I write is because I lived in that... I lived my childhood with the fear of gotcha.

In that box. And I was so afraid of getting got that I said, when I became a writer, I go, I'm going to tell everyone, everything. because if I am completely open and I have no secrets and then people still choose to be in relationship with me, that's the dream I never knew I could dream. That was the thing I didn't think was possible because if people really know who you are, they won't like you. That was the foundation of my beliefs.

Right. And so to be radically vulnerable and open and have people choose to be in my life is the dream I never know I could dream. So that is why I write and why I write what I write. who told me I could write. I definitely was like, all my heroes are writers. The thing that told me to write was my fear of regretting my life.

I knew I wanted to write a book. And I was in my late 20s. And I was working in the nonprofit world. I was working in other people's things. And I was approaching 30. And I think this happens to a lot of people as you approach 30. you think, oh, I am, like, I don't know who I am and what I'm doing. And a 30-year-old is an adult.

It's not, like, cute to be like, I don't know where. It's like, do something. And yet you're young enough to try something and then do something else, you know? Yeah. And so I was like, I'm going to write a book when I turn 30. And I might be bad at it. And I'll self-publish it. Who cares?

I just want to know that I did it. Because then if I go back to the nonprofit world or I become a lawyer or whatever it is, at least when I'm 60, I can be like, well, at least I know I'm not a good writer. I tried that. Versus being in a job I don't like and being like, I was so chicken shit.

I never tried it. And why not? And now I'm old and I, whatever. So it was my fear of regret. And my willingness to be like, life has lived in seasons. I can try something and fuck up and then just do something else.

I very much was okay with trying things, but I just didn't want to regret my life. And then a friend told me, he said, don't just ask what do I love. Listen to what loves you back. And that was really big for me because, and I use this anecdote where... That's great. I've never heard that. That's great. We always watch American Idol, the voice these shows where you see the worst audition you've

ever seen. This person's like, I've always dreamt of being a singer. And it's like... Well, it doesn't a rabbit running over. Yeah, it's like the worst sound you ever heard. And so it's like, it doesn't matter if you love singing. That is not your future. So pay attention to what you do loves you back.

And for me, I would be in meetings at the nonprofit or I would write little like blogs on blog spot or whatever and post it on my Facebook. And it would get passed around. Like I would write something about my thoughts on modern Christianity or something. And a friend of a friend of someone I don't know would then message me and be like, this really helped me, thank you, a stranger. And I was like, huh, it's not just my friends patting me on the back saying, good job, buddy. Right.

It was a stranger. There's something that Seth Godin said, which I think about a lot, which is if you're wondering if you can make money on your art or your endeavor, the thing has to get up and walk out of the room without you. Right. Like if you are playing an open mic and the entire audience is your friends and then you've been doing it for five years and it's only ever your friends in the room, you'll never know. That doesn't mean you're a good singer. It means you're a good friend. Right. If it starts with your friends and then all of a sudden it's strange, friends and friends and all of a sudden it's the friends of the friends and you don't even know the back half of the room, you're on to something because the art itself rather than relationship to you has lay. It's a really creative way of saying what we always say, which is the market will tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right? You take it to market. The market doesn't lie. It will tell you. You know, if you put out something digitally, the impressions don't lie. When they start to grow, you can see growth. But I like the way you put it because it's real. The art has to be completely. It's sticky. On its own without someone knowing who you are or knowing you personally. Yeah. Which I think is really important for people to know because. if you're wondering, should I try this? A, always try it, do it, and put it out there.

And then just see if over the course of time, does it start to grow legs? Well, it's like a chef making food and letting people try it. They go, oh, this is good. Yeah. Simple is that. Yeah, if it's your like mom going. But if it's your friend or your mom, you're like, oh, this is all pretty good. Do you want it more? Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Very that. But that imposter syndrome, that fear of embarrassing yourself by trying something that your idols do is really a barrier.

And I actually fucking love California and I love the United States for fostering a culture of you can do it, you can try it. Me too. Because a lot of other countries, they have that tall poppy syndrome that if you grow too tall, they cut you down and they say, who do you think you are? You think you're better than us? Yeah. You're going to move to that big city and leave us back. here? Who do you think you are? And like not only is there the internal embarrassment or fear, but it's the community actually does hold you down. Yeah. Because they're, they're indicted by your

ambition. So I love that you move to L.A. and like everyone's trying to do things and they have this big dream and you're like, cool. How can I help? That's amazing. How do you and your mom relate now around these things because it feels like you're not, do you edit your thoughts, words, or do you guys just have an understanding that you're going to have these conversations and you'll disagree? Yeah, it's been, I used to edit more. Right. Because I'm like part of the reason my mom and I are so close.

I mean, you guys are close. Very. We love each other. Love. Will she listen to this? I'm, luckily, I'm doing quite a few podcasts. So she does, she is obsessed with me. She's my mother.

so she probably will. Super proud of you. And yes. But it's so fun. And she loves attention, but sometimes this is complex attention. So I'm curious how much she'll be able to handle. I think she loves it all. But so much of the impetus of this book was the fact that we do have such deep,

painful divisions. And, I mean, thinking about it from her perspective, her one goal to raise children was to raise them to fear and fear God and follow Jesus. That was her number one. Same goal. Same. And to see me running Buckwild in L.A. and West Hollywood, she's like, this is my worst case scenario. This is the opposite. So I would say, I actually think we're similar in that, and this is why Nicole always says it. I love my mom. We get along. Great. Certainly have had our complications, and we continue to work through them. I really do feel. like in the deepest part of me that she looks at my life and my choices and she does think that I likely

am going to go to hell because I'm not I didn't like I don't make Christian music I make I don't even know what that means to be honest with you because I I make art yeah so what anyone that listens to my songs you have to preface it was saying I created this in a moment and this was a thought I had and this was an idea that I put down into paper writing music that I needed to express. Anything deeper than that is for me. Whatever I was working out. So you cannot judge my music and any message in it fully because you'll never know the personal side of it and what I needed to express and why.

And so who's to say it isn't religious? Who's to say it isn't directly to God? Who's to say it isn't, it doesn't, but to me it's like, you don't get to force me to tell you my private thought. That's not for you. And we have lost a little bit of that in the world today. Like there's no privacy. We're not allowed to have a private thought.

We're not allowed to share something and go, I don't want to tell you what this means to me. And yeah, you may say, oh, lifestyles of the rich and famous means this. And I may just go, sure. Yeah. Whatever you think. I love that. more cases than not, I'll have a song that I refused to share where I was, what I was thinking, what I was trying to say, and why I felt I needed to share that. I don't care if people judge it or

whatever. So there is a part of me that feels like I've deeply disappointed my mom because I didn't choose a religious feeling. I also believe that words can be bullshit and we can go out into the world and sell that we're this person that we're not. And I don't want to do that either. So how many different religious leaders have failed morally. Oh. And I don't even judge them. It's the religious people who are disappointed in their action, I'm just like, yeah, you're a human being and you made a mistake.

I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying like, yeah, I'm not surprised that you made a mistake that, you know, a hundred other people have made or whatever because it's human. It's the human side that we all have, right? But at the end of the day, like, there is a part of me that feels like, because I I didn't choose an outwardly religious persona to be. Well, imagine how claustrophobic it must be to be a Christian artist with a brain. And what I mean by that is your entire and God forbid you're successful.

Your success is predicated on your assent to this set of beliefs. If you wave from that belief, you could lose your job and your fans. They will smell it and they will come for you. and there'll be blogs written about how you're a traitor and that you've been deceived by fame in Hollywood. And so you cannot think, you cannot doubt, you cannot move in any direction. Like a true artist, the point of art is an authentic expression

of an internal experience that's been visualized or turned into sound. And if it is, you cannot be authentic unless you stay in line with, and that is so claustrophobic. And I don't even judge them. if that's your choice if that's the life you want to live that's your job go for it yeah if you want to go around and sell this idea it i'm not saying you're selling a bad idea so that's where i

differ from everyone over here where they're like yeah f the christians and i'm like no actually i'm actually like sitting between both of you saying stop yeah like you stop you stop looking at them like you have any say in what they're choosing to do why don't you just let them go and be and then actually become a real person that knows who they are. And vice versa, I'm not even judging you. If you want to be a super church pastor and you get to the top of your game, I respect it. I'm actually like looking at guys going, good. Dude, you did really well.

Yeah. You've just gone to the top of your game. Yeah, look at your congregation. They like look forward to this every Sunday and there's 20,000 people in there. And when you start thinking that you personally are saving souls, that's where I get a little bit of a problem. When you go, like, we as a church have saved this many souls. No, you didn't.

Well, also, both sides do that. I know, like, die-hard, deconverical activists who are, like, they are exactly as evangelical and scary, in their beliefs, as Liberty University is to me. And I don't know which of those people maybe, like, rub me the wrong way more. But at the end of the day,

I try not to like, I tend to gravitate towards things I like, not things I don't like. Yeah. So like I kind of like move through it. That's a beautiful way to live. It comes natural when you get up every day and you start, it wasn't always the case. So I think for early stages of my life, I felt like I was fighting everyone. Yeah. I was angry.

And that's why I look back on my old art and I go like with a lot of affection because I go, man, you were so hurt. Yeah. You were so, you felt so misunderstood. you felt like a black sheep you had a low self-esteem you were confused about the fear you felt of like all the religious undertones and overtones in your life that like were scaring you from just being that's the thing so now take that idea and then imagine you're gay yeah yeah right that that's what i think about when i think about the pain and suffering that someone has to go through

that's what I see when I see Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco and like wild gay like thong ass out parades because I'm like your sexuality was so coiled like a spring and ground into you and you were taught to be so ashamed

of holding hands with another boy and finally you reach adulthood and you fucking explode out in every direction and that's why it's called a pride parade. It's the opposite of shame. That is what people need to understand. Yeah. They need to understand why. The cause. Because I, and I'll tell you this, if I didn't have, if I hadn't had the experience of all my friends sharing with me about their experience, and I may not understand. I used to say, I won't, like, I'm going to go to California, but I'm not going to be like those gays,

right? Those pride parade gays. I'm like normal. But, because I, I didn't understand, really, I didn't understand what that meant and the cause of it, the same. So I completely understand. It's an expression. There's an amazing, this happened back in 2014, but it's one of these articles that's so stuck in my mind, written by Nicholas Christoph, who's the opinion writer for the New York Times. He was talking about why did gay rights change so quickly from like when you would poll Americans in the early 80s? Right. Like 80% are against gay marriage.

And by like 2005, 2010, it's like way flipped. And now the Supreme Court is legalizing gay marriage. Whereas like the experience of black Americans has taken, has been so much time. Right. And do you think it's because it's, I don't want to say it's a white issue, but it feels a lot whiter than. Well, so this goes back to the elements of empathy. Right.

Nicholas Christoph says that. is a lot of stats, and I'm just guessing from my memory. But he said that 75% of Americans have a gay family member or a close gay friend. And mostly gay family member. So they can relate to it. So you are forced in relation, closeness in time,

or closeness in space, time, and likeness to self. Your family member is gay. Right. And so that is a level of empathy where there was some crazy number, like four out of five Americans, four out of five white Americans do not know one black person. Really? Yeah. They know somebody from at work.

They know one. And they're like, I know a black guy. You know, like, that's what they say. But they don't have a real. That's crazy. It's like a crazy number. And so the black experience is theoretical to them. They live on the other side of town.

They do not look like you as a white American. And so the empathy experience is so, is delayed by centuries. Whereas the gay experience, once that story comes out. Well, even if you only knew, think about this, if as a white person, you only knew five black people, right? Or people of color. Right. But then think about that. Just you telling me that's that, whatever it is.

and I'm sure we could find out we could find where that's from. Like, I didn't, you never think about that. But then when you say it, you go, holy shit. I grew up like that. I grew up,

there was not one black kid in my school. There was one Japanese kid. Everyone else was white. I didn't, like, and I was actually shook when I moved to California because. Maryland is different than that. Yeah, well, you're at your proximity to D.C.,

like, and guess what? Like Nashville, there are black people in, Nashville. It's a very segregated place. It's much better now. But when I was growing up, the people that work at McDonald's, the people that cut your grass and the people that clean your house are the same race as you. Always. Everyone was white. And I moved to California and I was so taken aback by like, you could almost tell people's jobs. Like if there was someone working in the yard, you knew that they didn't live in that house. That was like very shocking to me moving here. about how segregated it is, but diverse.

Right. It was wild. I think the reason that the gay experience changed so much in my lifetime was that idea of they got confidence to speak. There was representation in the media and there was likeness to self with gay family members that finally came out and they're like, I am gay. And I'm your cousin or I'm your brother. And back to why you write, do you feel like you write to represent that experience?

Yeah. To encourage somebody, especially somebody that comes from a religious conservative background or that has a family member like this. Because the crux of this book is a lot of people are no longer in relationship with their mom or their dad or their siblings. And I want to interrogate that and say sometimes boundaries are important and sometimes you shouldn't be in relationship. But I think a lot of people are sacrificing a valuable relationship to stand in their righteousness. and I like you am I'm just like not like that I would rather have a complicated limping love for my mother than none at all yeah I agree with that and I would I still hold her in this like place where she's my mother yeah so she gave me life yeah and she sacrificed for me

and she may not fully agree with all my decisions she may question my faith she may be terrified of how I'm raising my kids, but I know she loves me. I never questioned that. I know she loves me. There's no doubt in my mind. Like I know in her, in all that she is, I know she loves me. And I accept that. And I also don't resent her for her differences from me. Yeah. I just accept them. And I never, and I've accepted, I think the piece I made was like, I'm not going to do something hoping for a different result. You know what's interesting is I'm realizing I've always, I've always thought my mom's, my mom's lack of acceptance or endorsement of my life was predicated on my sexuality. But I think my mom would be just like your mom where you're straight with a wife and

kids. She's still not happy because you're not making the right music or you're not doing the right thing. Because they're looking for the first flaw and they stop at the flaw. Yeah. Right. So if it's not my sexuality. Okay. Next. Next. Yeah. Um, is it the language I use? Okay. Is it the, uh, is it where I live? Absolutely. Is it where I live? You think she wants me to live in Hollywood? And, and that's the other thing is I go home to where I'm from and I'm like, those people, I can, anyone where they group everyone together with like, out there in Hollywood and you're like, no, actually guys, you're wrong. I know. And the amount of questions I get. I'm like, are you scared? Everyone would love you, you'd be the favorite aunt or you'd be the favorite cousin.

Like if any family ever comes here from out of town, everyone here is celebrating them. Someone reading Mother Nature and you could decide the takeaway. And these are the two people. One, and I'm only summing them up in character, I don't know that I could completely label any person and give you a complete picture of who they really are. But let's just say a super conservative religious person from a conservative place who's never had a relationship with, in fact, they haven't even established how they really feel and they don't have a relationship with someone who's gay or someone who's LGBTQ plus.

And forgive me, I'm not very articulate around a lot of this stuff. And I, I, you're nailing it. I just, I'm always careful because I never want to hurt anyone's feelings, right? But at the end of the day, like, this is a person who's from a super conservative place. They themselves are conservative and they've never really established their relationship or a relationship in a real way with anyone, let's say, like you. Yeah. Right?

Or someone you relate to. If you could decide what they take away, what would that be? I think the reason to read anything is to step inside the experience of someone else. That's what's so cool about language and about reading is that you can privately, like, go into another world. I mean, that's what I love about a hardcover book is you can take the jacket off. And no one even knows what you're reading. You could be a scared gay kid or whoever and read this or a proud conservative that wouldn't be caught dead reading this book or whatever because maybe whatever. And you could read it and nobody knows.

They're like, what are you reading? And they're like, how to win friends and influence people? Yeah. But I would say, I hope that I come across in this book in a way that that person would be like, huh, this guy's pretty cool. Like, I think I would like him in person. And that just to like establish that. And then to see my mom, because I think about what, the question I thought you were going to ask is a conservative parent who does not have a relationship with their queer son or their whatever. Right. And I would be like. Okay, let's say that. And I would be like, I would be like, I. hope that that parent sees that my mom does not, she does not, um, betray her convictions. She hasn't had to, she hasn't compromised. Yeah. She doesn't caltow to like my bullying or whatever it is. She stands in her faith and her beliefs and loves me and loves me so well. And, and by standing in her beliefs, that is her loving me. Because she believes that is the, she believes, with 100% conviction that that is the actual reality of the universe.

That narrative is exactly what the universe is. And so she's trying to save me from a coming forest fire. That is exactly what she believes. And so it is love. And yet she always says this. She goes, I hold my kids with an open hand. And it's like, if they want to fly away, the hand is still here and they can fly home whenever they want.

I'm right here. And it's just very, the way she loves me and stands in her beliefs, I would hope that a conservative parent would be like, wow, like, I really am so hard on my child. And it's driven them away. And like, I didn't love them like this. Maybe I could, maybe I could be softer with them. Yeah, I could reimagine what our relationship actually is. Yeah, because I don't, in my mind, I thought I had to agree with them or not.

Now, in the same light, what do you hope the person who on the other side of that is saying, well, fuck that. Yeah. Right? The person that maybe they're hurt, maybe they're angry, maybe their experience has been really, there hasn't been a lot of grace,

there hasn't been a lot of empathy, there hasn't been a lot of effort, right? What do you say to the person that's reading that book that is saying, you know what, fuck that? Yeah. No tolerance for that. Reading other people's stories is why I love memoir. I love learning about someone's real life.

Yeah, it's honest. is that you just get to see that there are other ways of living. There are other human experiences that are not exactly yours, and that people can behave better, they can behave worse, and that there's a recipe in here, perhaps, by just all of reality as a recipe, is a metaphor, that I could have rejected my mom in outrage, and I could have stood in my, you know, fallen in line with so many other people

and kicked her out of here, you know, just be like, fuck you, you do not accept me as I am. But my mother's kindness and my mother's, she's fun and she's bright. And I'm fun and I'm bright. And I value that relationship at the expense of total agreement. And if you have a belligerent, righteous, religious parent that doesn't want to talk to you and you don't want to talk to them and there is no affection, there is no kindness, there is no love, there are times where strong boundaries and, like, Like walls, well, I would say closed doors, unlocked closed doors have a value. Because like you have to protect your own peace and build a community around you as best you can of people that really do love you unconditionally.

And there are people that do damage. Yes. There are people that do damage. But I say the only thing you can do is make yourself proud. Right. Like if you have parents that are, someone asked me this other day, what if you have religious parents that? have rejected you because of your sexuality. And they've like, don't talk to you anymore.

I was like, you cannot control them, but you can make yourself proud. You can send them flowers on their birthday. You can send them Christmas cards. You can tell them you love them. You can, and I was like, you can poison their righteousness with your loving kindness. You can just love them, love them, love them.

And if they never change their mind, you'll die proud of yourself. Right. Wouldn't you say, though, that, like, the motivation behind that has to be one that's like, I mean this? Yeah. No, it's not a trick. Versus like, fuck you.

No, no, no. It can't be a trick because that's not sincere. Right. It has, you just have to like, and that's where it's seeking understanding of why people believe what they believe, which is so clearly what you do, is like, it's so helpful because you, it defangs, it defangs their beliefs. Right. Because you see why they are the way they are, and it couldn't be otherwise.

And it just gives you this like, it just gives you a calmness to approach the world. I said this before here, and I always say it again and again and again, because maybe I'm reminding myself. But the thing that I thought was my worst experience and I thought or that I think is my biggest weakness is time and time again, I'm reminded that it is my greatest strength. Wow. And like when I was a kid, my dad left, right? And it's a famous story I wrote about it in songs and stuff. We had a very complicated relationship. And we actually ended up with a really nice relationship in my, you know, later in life.

And there was a lot of healing and some healing that never happened, right? Yeah, yeah. But what it did to me at a young age when he left and the rejection I felt and the pain that I felt in that, it was a, injury that I still think I have work to do on. It's allowed me to be able to, when a door closes, I'm okay with it. Yeah. I don't feel pain. If someone comes to me and says, we're done.

Yeah. You know, I've gotten to a place where I'm not angry. I'm like, okay, you know what? I want you to be happy. Go live your life. Yeah. You know, not to say that that happens a lot to me, but I think the abandonment got me to a place where like I don't know that someone could hurt me from abandoning me except I think my kids

yeah yeah I think they could hurt me I think they could by not being in my life and that that is why as a parent there is not there is very few things they could do on this earth uh personal choices that that I wouldn't accept which is why when when parents do it it is so it's crazy painful I think if they were hurting themselves. Right. That's what my mom thinks I'm doing. Right. And that's the difference is that.

That's actually why you understand it, I think. Because in her mind, right, she likely thinks that you're on some kind of drug. Yeah. Like that is probably, I do think that that is how extremely religious people look at when someone's gay. It's like they made this choice to do a drug. And that they're in a cult. They're in a cult.

And I do think that my mom sees. she's, you know, what she thinks is likely like a secular lifestyle where I'm like, mama, it actually, I don't have a lifestyle. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm literally married, right, with kids, raising kids. In the carpool lane, taking them to school. I'm literally taking them to school. And I'm like, because I am, because I believe that other people should have the choice to live their lives. And I'm not afraid to say it at the dinner table when everybody, if we're having, if I'm within a conservative group of people and they're all like those people.

And I'm like, no, that's not true. Yeah. That is actually not true. There's no truth to that. And it sounds to me like you're not actually in reality on planet Earth with the rest of us living life where, you know, maybe it's women having the right to decide what they want to do. or maybe it's uh now i do find in my experience that when i speak and share my experience there's room for it at the table even if there's just like one person that's like you know but whether it's

just that i just don't agree and so therefore maybe she feels like i'm living a lifestyle my my mom is sweet and and and and i appreciate her faith right I really do. But I think that as the kid, you feel like your parents don't approve. And so we go back to like, and I'm a straight white guy. Yeah. Right. I know.

That was a big aha moment in this conversation. There's a thing that I talk about in here, which is every child wants to be loved by their parent, liked, and approved of. And those are, you could be, you could have two of the three. And it's celebrated. Yeah. Yeah. Celebrated.

And like. I think that my mom loves me and my mom likes me. Yeah. And I know parents who love their child and they do not like their child. Yeah. They're like my child sucks. I think my mom likes me and she always says you're a good dad. She always says like you're such a good dad.

So that's nice to hear. Yeah. You know what I mean? But there's like an approval and a celebration aspect of it that is like I don't have that from my mom. But she celebrates me in many ways. But there's this like key way. but it's like that that's the never-ending game of you're never going to be enough you're never

going to be this and it's like for me and my mom and this relationship and my one and only life this is the best case scenario yeah which is we love each other we go on road trips we laugh we watch true crime documentaries and she cooks me food and it's great she may never approve of my sexuality and i might go to hell but you know what definitely not her business yeah that's how I feel. Yeah. And that is partly like where I go with all that with with people's sexuality is is like I go back to privacy like it's not what the fuck what the fuck do I care. Right. But that's a mom. I mean the thing is it's not just who I'm banging. It's who I'm bringing home for Christmas. It's who I'm starting a family with. And who are you to spend the rest of life? That is her business. Right.

Well, I want it to be her business. Yeah, you want her to celebrate. Yeah, exactly. You wanted her to celebrate. Who's your best friend? I know a lot of your friends. Who's your who's the standout best friend? This is not a cop out, but I will answer the question. But I feel like I look at friendship like a like a bunch of keys for like a huge mansion where all the doors are locked and it's like A bunch of different rooms. And like Nicole has a key to certain rooms and she has like a janitor key. She can get into a lot of rooms. Yeah, skeleton key. But then some people have keys to other rooms and in the moment when I need you and this friend in this moment is so crucial to me and where Nicole couldn't do that for me. So like I very much believe that like each person is such a unique

combination of I remember reading this thing about C.S. Lewis wrote about one of his best friends who died and he said when someone dies he was like I think it was when someone dies three people die. The person dies, who they were unlocked only in your presence, and the you that was unlocked only in their presence dies. Because it's so true. Like the me that I am in front of certain friends is such a unique me that I love. I love what they unlock in me. And so anyway, that I have like amazing relationships. I would say really,

the people that I talk to the most, probably in the day, are Lauren Paul, your wife, and Adele Adkins. Like, the most all day. And I don't talk on the phone. I'm a texter.

Yeah, on the text group. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I'm a side texter. Yeah, it's a great text group. It's all happening all the time. Yeah. But it's just like,

It's a text group that comes to life. Yeah, yeah. You guys were all at the house. Yeah. But there's vacations that happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just very cozy and like where you're just like talking about anything and everyone's checking in on each other and processing and sharing the gnarliest things you've ever seen and oh God, we need to delete these texts. Like it's just like very raw and real.

It's good. like just like leaning on each other it's that very like thing that is so and everybody's rooting you're just like rooting for each other yeah you need that yeah i think everybody needs that group well congrats on the book thank you joel bestseller hopefully it's gonna be a besteller baby i mean here it comes you're a new york times bestselling artist yeah author well i guess i am an artist but yeah writer author it feels like nothing because even just Just having that in your bio? No, it feels nice, but I have no idea.

It's like, listen to the market. It's like, I have no idea why anything works. I'm just writing my true story and that's so cool that it connects with people. But I don't know how. I'll tell you it's a big deal. Cool, thank you. So like when you can say, introduce someone and go, like on this podcast, I can say New York Times bestselling author.

It is pretty cool. His new book. Mother Nature. It's a huge deal. You got to celebrate that where you can. I think this one's going to be a bestseller too. Well, I hope so. Thank you.

Congrats. I love you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Artist Friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon.

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