Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Jesse Leach of Killswitch Engage

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Jesse Leach of Killswitch Engage. ⁠Over the last couple of decades, Killswitch Engage have been at the top of metalcore. The New England group became genre leaders in the 2000s, making an early mark with 2002’s Alive or Just Breathing and 2004’s The End of Heartache. Through lineup shifts, Grammy nominations, and Guitar Hero appearances, they’ve remained active, releasing their ninth studio album, This Consequence, in February. Before heading out on a European tour, the powerhouse vocalist sat down with Madden to talk about the band’s legacy, his personal journey through music, and the passion that continues to fuel heavy music today. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And now I guess I'm feeling my age or maybe it was right before I got married or whatever was going on in my head of the time. You're right. It's not necessarily a negative thing. I was looking towards the future with a little bit of anxiety because I'm like, what else? What else do I do? And I see how there are other people like, you know, even just in my own band, Mike, he does a graphic design. He's like, Adam produces. I'm like, I'm Jesse from Kielsauch. What else do I do? Do you live here in L.A.? No. Okay.

I live in upstate New York. Okay, cool. Former city, now I'm in the middle of nowhere. That's awesome. Yeah, it's great. How long have you been up there? Six years now. So I moved to Woodstock, the famous Woodstock, for like five years.

Lived in a little musical community, which is nice. But now we're like out, like 45 minutes southwest. The closest thing is a place called the Blue Hole, which is a tourist attraction for swimming in a mountain stream. Okay. But you walk out on my front door, there's a stream in a mountain, nobody. two bald eagles nesting. At night we get bears on my security cameras, bobcats. Wow.

We're out there. That's awesome. It's great. Do you love it? Love it. That's pretty cool. Why do you think? It's inconvenient.

Where did you grow up? All over the place. So my dad was seeking God. He was going to Bible studies, Bible schools, seeking God. So we moved every like two or three years. So Florida, Missouri. We lived in the middle of Philly in the 80s. That's crazy.

We lived on a dairy farm in Wisconsin for two years, moved in Rhode Island, then New York. Yeah, I've been all over. That's a really, like, interesting way to grow up. It is, but I tell you what, it really prepared me for life on the road. Right, life on the road. Gypsy life. I think the same thing. A bit different, I didn't move around, but when I got a little older, like, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13,

I'd say, like, 11 to 13 was the age that my family. dissolved and then we were moving all the time because we like couldn't we'd get evicted from this place then we'd like live with these people from church or we'd live with these people that my mom worked with or then we found another place and then we had that and we moved in and then we got evicted from there and we were like I could move if you told me right now go home get your shit you're moving I could do it wouldn't be fun but I'd do it like I've gotten really comfortable at this age but I still have that trigger in me that's like I can go right now.

It doesn't leave you. It doesn't leave you. There's an instability, I think. It's those formative years, though, that's when you learn your muscle memories. Yeah. And for me, the biggest thing was like, trying to make friends. I became such a people pleaser because we move every three years. And you have to learn who the tough kid is, who the bully is.

Yeah, you got to navigate. How do you fit into this and becoming a little bit of a chameleon for a while until I figured out who I was? I was like that for a while. Like the pastures kid that just moved into the neighborhood, that's kind of a dork. I always joke with people like my brother and I were like the Flanders kids from the Simpsons. Really? Oh yeah. Because you're such a cool dude.

Now. Yeah. Am I? Am I? I don't know. You are cool dude. I chill out. Yeah.

You look cool. And you're in a cool band. Yeah. Well, so that's kind of cool. For me anyways, when I see like cool guy, I'm like, that guy's pretty cool. I don't know if I should talk to him. He's too cool. Like that's my, when I see guys that I'm like, oh, that guy's cool as shit.

I think because of the way I was raised, though. And then, you know, it's punk rock. Punk rock changed everything for me. So up until that point, like my first memory, actually I'm going to back up. I don't even think punk rock. I think it was hip hop. It was the first thing to hit me because we lived in Germantown,

Philadelphia was a crazy wild place. We were the only white family in blocks and blocks. Like I grew up around a community of people. I saw the first break dancers on the corner playing, you know, like Houdini and like that early shit. and they call me a little man. That was their name because I'd go to the corner store

and get my bubble gum or whatever with my allowance. And I'd stop and watch the breakers and like that culture was the first thing to me as a kid that was so different from my home life. Yeah. Happy, Clapy and Jesus songs and stuff

and seeing the rebels. And back then, you know, the way they dressed even was so funky. Yeah, it was so cool. Feathers and leather and, you know, kind of glam metal, but like rappers. Yeah. And as a kid, I loved.

for that stuff. So that's kind of where I used to have the, it's funny, I'm trying to think what's her name is, Pat Benatar, I used to have like that rolled up bandana with her little fuzzy hair. I had a mini mullet with like the bandana and the jean jacket, the sleeves cut off. I tried to be down. Yeah. A little white kid trying to be down in the hood. That's kind of when, you know, I started to see the other, like, there's the church

life and then there's what's going on in the corner. Yeah. That was the early spark of me. I was like, I want to know what the cool kids are doing, doing the robot. break dancing that was addictive to me but i wonder like well i think we answered it i think that my ability to move around like i had to when we were you know in those formative years even though it was locally it wasn't across states and stuff it was just it was more of locally just finding places to live i do think that it made me really adept in like it set me up for like being able to go

out on the road for 15 years and not stop and be okay with it. Yeah. At some point I think I hit, I think it's not mentally healthy. Exhaustion. Yeah. And I think also just not working on yourself

for long enough and your problems are gonna, they're down there in you. Well, it's kind of like that when you're on tour, you can kind of get away. You can sideline that shit. Yeah. I mean, and relationships can fall apart and you're like, I'm gonna keep going.

At least I have this next tour to look forward to, push it aside, push it aside. Yeah. And it catches up to you. None of it's real back there. Yeah, that's the word. You can forget all of it. And you can live in this, like, fantasy on the road where there's...

And people are throwing stuff at you to keep you numb to that. Yeah, and, like... Drink in, whatever the fuck. And anywhere you are on tour is somebody's Friday night. So everybody's just having a good time or... You know, you're in this bubble of, like, not reality. There isn't, like, day-to-day consequences, really if, like, you don't want to... Yeah, I don't know.

It's like, you can go or... around and do what you want, when you want, how you want, in so many ways, you know, like, I mean, it sounds worse than it is. Especially in the early days when you didn't care. Yeah. And so you're not building anything sustainable over time personally. You're building this career that could be sustainable. You're building, there's a lot of things to be done out there on the road that we did.

We built careers. And you and me both built lives and certainly like interesting lives that are not, you know, the normal kind of thing. That's not what everybody does with their life. But like there's this fantasy that that's not actually what you're doing. You're actually out there living this dream. And I think for a long time I was bought into that, that this was just like I hit a lottery and I was lucky and I should just, you know.

But then when I got older, I had kids and I kind of like, my feet hit the ground. I was like, no, you're out there building a business. You're out there building a legacy. You're out there building some things you can touch. some things you can't touch, but you're building something that matters. I like legacy. That's a great word, you know. But yeah, when you're young, especially, you know, I put money in front of it and just partying

and like, yeah, it's like a theme park ride. It is. And, you know, I was able to dip in and out of that because when I left Kielswitch initially, I went back into the working class. I had nine years of carpentry, bartending, doing real work. So when I came back to the band, yeah, I had a few years of like living the drunken, having fun and being in standing. but I had the reference of like, I could be doing this. I appreciated it more, I think, than had I just lived it through the whole thing, you know, like that's where I am a little different from my bandmates because I remember bartending. I remember those nights at four in the morning where I'm drunk thinking, what am I doing

myself? You know, these bands are out here touring and I'm stuck behind a bar like washing spit out of glasses. So that helped me stay a little more grounded, but I definitely had a few years of just black out drunk stupidity. Mm-hmm. And you think it's never going to end. And then, you know, I damaged my voice.

So I had my, I don't have kids, but I had that pump the brakes moment when this gave out on me. You realize, like, the reality of our physical health is actually. You got to take care of yourself. Yeah, it's not endless. I started to get healthy then. But what I want to double back to, because I've noticed this with a lot of musicians, you know, and I've heard your story from listening to your podcast because I'm a fan, that's why we became the kids that we became that wanted to write the lyrics that we wrote. we wanted to express our pain.

We wanted to express what it was like to feel left out. And I used to, I mean, especially being a pastor's kid into discovering punk rock, that was such a huge earth-shattering thing. But I always felt like an outcast. If I was the ultra-Christian pastor's kid or the punk rocker, I just, I was with the freaks and geeks and the misfits no matter what. So when I went to public school for the first time after being in Bible school for so long, Oh, wow.

Kids. So basically my dad. Tell me about Bible school. I want to know about that. So my dad, my dad, because he was studying to be a minister, he got us into private school for free.

Okay. So we're like, so it's like a Christian, like day school or something. Yeah. So we're like living off the co-op in government cheese, poor,

poor, living in like a roach place, you know, in Philly that my dad, to help pay the rent would do carpentry during, So at night, he'd go to the school all day, then he would do carbon tree. So he worked at the school.

No, he worked on the house that we were living in. Oh. So we could live there. Oh, wow. The lady across the way whose name, this is, it gets really funny. Her name was Mary. Her son was Moses. Oh, wow.

Her son was a pimp. Oh, wow. And Moses protected us. He used to, it is, he used to escort us to like the train station with like a sort of shotgun in his coat because we were the white family that some people didn't want it in the neighborhood. But I had no idea. I'm an ignorant kid. I'm just thinking Uncle Moses has taken us to the train station.

But as I got older, I realized the struggle that they went through. So we were kind of always outcast. So I've always been used to the freaks and the geeks. And then transitioning from the happy, clappy Christian life into punk, it just felt like, oh, now I found my tribe. I found the people who I might not be able to relate to you because you come from an abused house. But I know what it's like to be picked on. I know what it's like to be, you know,

consider to freak poor yeah of course yeah also i think yeah it's weird to grow up in a religious house it's hard to explain because it's not that i'm not a spiritual or a faith or person of faith because i actually consider myself to be a person of great faith yeah i do kind of have a more cause and effect relationship with the world and with life so i do teach my kids a bit more cause and effect than listen we pray i don't know if we pray together like we have a I was raised in a house where we were fucking having these group prayers and things like it just doesn't feel it brings a weight on life at an early age. Obligation doesn't feel genuine.

Yeah, and it feels heavy. A practice. Yeah, and it feels heavy. I was pretty much doomed from the start because I knew I was going to hell. Like that's what my, like I at a very young age, I don't know how it got in my head, I was like, well, I'm going to hell because I'm sitting here with all these people that are going to heaven. Oh, that's funny.

And I did everything they told me to do. I did. I was very good. I was like, not a bad kid. I was definitely. You can play the role. Yeah. But I didn't feel like the same.

And it's not that I don't believe in God either. It's just that I didn't think that's what God wanted for me. I didn't think God put me here to stay in a house and pray all day. and speak in tongues and do all this stuff. And like when the whole world was going on outside, and my mom was terrified of it back when I was a kid, she's just like, everything was bad. Everything's demonic.

Everything's demonic. Every spirit of this, spirit of that, the spirit of this. You're like, where are the spirits? Because I'm terrified. Like I remember just feeling like, like this spirit of whatever is going to get you. And I'm like,

is it a demon that's going to get, it's going to like get inside of me? and like take over me. Like shit like that when you're little is like really heavy stuff. And then anything good that happens. So what's the point of working hard and having a dream and working towards it? If the only way that things happen is if God faith. Yeah.

And so there is no work. It's just faith. So I believe in faith. And I say to my kids all the time. I'm like, we got to just have faith and keep going forward. And like there is a plan. I'm sure of it. But we have to stack.

the deck. Yeah. We got to try and get every opportunity and everything we can do to stack the deck in our favor to get to the next step or to win the game we're playing or to have success, whatever that means with our health, with our work. We have to do that. And that was the difference. Like I think when growing up in my house, like rich people are bad. These people are, and I'm like, actually, there's tons of really great rich people that have helped the world in so many ways. And there's some real assholes. Then there's tons of assholes that are poor as well. Yeah, of course. And then there are some really great people. So it's like the generalizations don't work. Yeah, they don't work. So that is growing up in that house and then finding my way out into the

world and feeling like I finally found my place with music. But even in Good Charlotte, we always felt like we were a little bit outcasts everywhere because we weren't really a part of any scene, even though we kind of were around everybody. We never got fully embraced except by the people who liked our music. Right. And so that's kind of where we ended up pouring. You know, I remember when we did our first show where there was like 150 people there sold out, I was like, these are our people.

And then we just started building on that and like that became our like our place. But it was weird because when you grow up in that kind of house, it plays tricks on your mind. Of course it does. Yeah. You know. But I think, you know, you build off. that and especially with what you guys did i look back on the early days you know where genre was so important so important yeah so being a hardcore kid which i that's initially where i would say

you know when i heard minor threat and i started to get into that movement uh bands like earth crisis strife um you know the straight edge movement for a little while there it was almost a uniform like it really was a very like you can't have double bass you don't solo you like it was a very strict. Yeah. Genre mattered a lot back then. Very much. And as you get older,

I find myself backpedaling to bands and like, who cares about like, especially now at this age? I'm appreciating all these bands that I used to like go, not my thing. Yeah, yeah. And as you're older,

like, that shit is brilliant. I feel like that with you guys. Like, you guys were brilliant because you didn't fit the mold. Yeah, we didn't fit anything. But that's why it was good because that's the ultimate punk rock. Yeah.

You didn't let it stop you. People can clown on you and say whatever they want to say. but you continued on. And what I love about what you guys did was, it was like opening up somebody's journal entries and like reading like painful shit. Yeah.

That's important to people who are probably still listening to now. There are now adults that are probably still alive because of that type of stuff. And that's what I realize now with everything that I've been through in my childhood, everything we've been through, we're still here. And there's a message there. And the message outweighs to me, everything. Not even just music, but the way you carry yourself in life,

the way you are as a business person, the way you're helping other bands through what you're doing. That, to me, is the community of, quote, unquote, punk, if you will, generalization, punk, like the do it yourself. Don't wait for somebody to pay your bills, pay the bills. How do you pay the bills? Hustle.

Book your own shows. That DIY, like rent a VFW hall. Always. I had a book this thick with phone numbers. You go to the pay phone, call. Like, oh, we want to play Connecticut. This is early, early on. I'm talking like my band, Corinna, I was.

16, 17 years old. We're all on the phone, like, booking that stuff. We got to Canada just by phone calls. This band called Grade was from Canada. We hooked up with them. We went up to Canada. Like, that mentality is why we're still here. You're so right.

The DIY of all of the bands, regardless of the genre, if you started your band in the 90s, 2000, early 2000s, you know, we started our band in 96. That was the only way to do it. it was do it yourself to figure it out like or if you're not playing go to the show

go to the show flyer flyers talk to people talk to people meet the band like that's what we always did that's got like the distro table you'll sell you 10 of these CDs sell them like you can make a profit but get the word out

you know here's our demo tape free just getting bro up going to kinkos we had a buddy who had a kinkos card the copy for people who don't know they'd go to like make photocopies and they used to these bootleg cards you can get like three on copies on a car. So we're like hustling cars and it kinkos at two in the morning.

I had photocopies. Exactly that. Exactly. We all did that. We all know what that feels like in the van, right? What did you tour in when you made it? A van. Yeah. You were so excited when you got that 13 passenger Ford fucking van. Ford. It was a Ford. The trailer, you know. So many times. Yeah. But we actually gave our van to another band when we were done with it because we we had graduated to buses. But like, that's what you do. And that's what I think still at the core of bands, they're still doing that,

the good ones, I believe. The reality of shows is it's hard to sell tickets. Yep. And you have to start somewhere. But you have to start. I remember the early Killswitch tour we did with every time I die, we're playing in North Carolina and there's 10 people in attendance. Yeah.

No cell phones inside. Nobody cares about that. But I'll never forget those shows because they were character building. And I watched Keith Buckley. invite the entire audience on stage, which was hysterical to me. It was because he was a really funny, he is a really funny, great frontman. But, you know, you learn so much from those types of things, like the small shows. A friend of mine, for example, club babyhead in the 90s, went to see this little band called Nirvana.

There was like 25 people there. Wow. And they were playing the early rendition of Smells Like Teen Spirit. That's crazy. And he was there. And he was like, it was like not the greatest show, but you could see that, something was happening. Those types of moments for us in our career

when we started really small, I still go back to those memories when we're playing in front of 70,000 people opening for Iron Maiden, where I'm like, I step on that stage and I'm like, wow. And I get welled up with tears and I remember and I go back.

I think any performer needs to have failures, needs to have those moments where you can go back and go, oh yeah, we made it here because of X, Y, and Z. you can't skip that process. Yeah, you can't skip. And some artists are able to do that through the internet.

And I think it shows. And, you know, old man, yes, a little bit, but I'm impressed by the people who can pull it off because there are people that can pull that shit off. Well, yeah, they can hang around long enough and continue to have success to get that part caught up. And that's a real thing. Like, if you have an early viral hit

and you've only played 20 shows, start playing shows. And it can be done for a show. sure, but I think that people have to give it credit. Like the live thing is, is kind of earned. It's something that you have to learn how to do. And I do think it's a, I mean, I take it serious. You know, the thing is now at this age, when we go and play shows, it's funny because I didn't know if I'd still be on stage at this age when I was 20, you know, but now I'd say we're better live and we take it more seriously than we ever have. and I think it makes us better

like all the way around I just think I agree which is better than we ever were and your mindset is different you know and I think that that comes with also you know careers do this yeah and like even just from me rejoining Kill Switch in 2012

till now we've experienced that where you're looking out and your audience going oh this is slim pickings right now it's not horrible but you can feel when it ebbs and flows and it's what you do during those downturns which just determines your success overall. Yeah, well, I would say 2012 to 2022. We're really bad for Rock.

Yeah. Just really, really hard. So I would say that the fact that you guys could continue to work through what I would say from 2010 to 2020 was to me the best decade for bands starting. So there's a lot of great bands that started and a lot of great bands that kind of formed out of that decade. But the worst for bands as far as like a success metric of like streaming, tickets were tough. And now I think around 2021, 22, 23, we kind of have turned this corner. And now I'd say we're we're experiencing the full like swing of that where it's starting where I think this next decade is going to be very rock heavy.

like it's going to be a rock decade. Yes, I agree. I agree. But the last 10 years, you know, 2010 to 2021, 2, very hard for rock. And if you look at all the, if you just looked at the metrics, you'd see it. Like, it's like, there's proof there. It's not a, it's not a question mark. But you had a lot of great bands come out of the last 12 years, formed and started.

And, you know, bands that I think are going to have great careers and have great. great careers. You rejoining in 2012, you picked a tough decade to get back to it. But the fact that you're sitting here and you're still a band and you're still working is a testament to, I think, well, it's the legacy. It's the catalog and it's the group of guys. Absolutely. And I just think too passion. You know, you can't fake that. Yeah, and you're a good band. Well, thank you. Appreciate that. And you're, I would say a, when I think of like, again, not to genre five, but if I just zoom all the way out and I go metal core music as a whole world, right? There's so many different bands that came out of hardcore, bands that came out of punk bands that came out of metal. You guys have a lot of these different flavors from like hardcore to like kind of like some thrashy stuff to singing.

Like you really, I would say you were one of those kind of. of fundamental bands that an entire, I would say like you're in a class of bands that started an entire universe of what other bands now get to enjoy because it's so much bigger and so much more like broadly accepted. Yeah, I mean the term metal core to me, I don't even know what that means anymore. It's so broad. It's so broad. That's why I say it would be more like a universe or a world than than one genre because there's so many things that could fall into metal. And I say metal core because metal seems even to streamline. Yeah, yeah. And so like when I say like the world of heavy music, it helps people

associate when you use terms. You have to. I mean, metal core is a lot of people know what that means. But you know, I look at a band like architects, for example. I love architects. Playing alongside you know that because you'll sit into the show. Yeah. But also playing alongside those guys, I remember seeing them for the first time in the early days and being like, these guys are different. They're different. It's not just what we sort of set them up to do. They kind of went, you know, like the older bands. Yeah, yeah.

You could say the same thing about Bring Me the Horizon. Like, they're bands that took what we were all kind of doing and we're like, oh, we're going to go that way. We're going to go that way. We're going to bring in good songwriting. We're going to not be afraid to grab a little bit of 80s here, grab some, like, and I love that. But when you see metalcore, it's like, it's so broad now.

Like, I don't even know what that means anymore. Yeah. I would say like most of the time I kind of sum it all up with like heavy music, but that doesn't even feel right because for me it's more like just metalcore does kind of accomplish what I'm trying to say when I think. But I but also sometimes I'll say heavy music. Sometimes I'll say metalcore. Yeah. But I do think it's like the world of heavy and rock music where screaming is allowed, singing is allowed. That's a world, right? Yeah. And I think that like I would I put you guys in a class of bands that really foundationally like started this world that is now so big

and broad and so many bands get to enjoy it. You know what I mean? I do think it's cool where it's at. It's a genre of music that's going to be bigger than ever. Like it's already on it. It already is, but it's continuing to go to new, new heights that I don't think any of us can imagine. And I think we'll remember this conversation when some heavy band is the biggest band in the world. and it will happen. But all that started in the 90s, in basements and garages and with guys like you that were expressing themselves, but also probably didn't feel completely like for me. I didn't feel like I went to some hardcore shows, went to some punk shows, never felt

like I was completely accepted, even though it was probably in my head. I don't think anyone cared. It's funny you say that, but it's true. But I was like, I'm just not as tough or not as cool. And then when we, when we started our band, we wanted to be big. We wanted to play big shows and we wanted to like have. Which was a no-no for some scenes. Yes.

Like yeah, back then. Punk rock guilt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But good on you. And look at you now. And, you know, now I think we're around the same age.

I think we can look back at it and forward with a lot more experience. and age, you realize, like, when you were younger, all the things that you were caught up on or things that you cared about, most of it falls away. Yeah, it doesn't matter. You just age out of it. Yeah. You know, for me, I'm always kind of,

I can be a fan of a band and never meet them, but I tend to really, like, believe in people, and I meet people, and I'm just like, you know, like, I was a fan of architects, then I met him, and they became one of my favorite bands because I liked the people. Yeah. It's just good quality.

people. Yeah, good guys. Which is huge. And again, going back to the don't care about genres anymore, like, I'm the same way. I've met people that I'm like, they're bands all right. And then now that I know them, and I go back, I'm like, that's such sincere music. Yeah, yeah. It's so good. It's nice. You know, I don't want to name names, but, you know, they're bands. I was like, when I was younger, I was like, eh, they're lame. And now I'm like, I love them. Yeah, yeah. That happens. But it's just being, you know, I think, again, going back to the, cool, passion though, like, you know, this last record we put out, it took me a lot. Like, like, I was a lot. Like, a lot to really dig deep to go

at this stage in the game. Yeah, we have our, you know, credibility, we have our legacy. But I don't want to put out a record that's like, let's just put it out and go tour. Right. Me either. This last record, and people roll their eyes and I know, I try not to read

online comments, but I know people clown on me because I'm always like, it took so much to do this record. Yeah, man. Because I really care. Like, I fell into a depression, but like, legit, legit. At my age, you know, I'm 47 now when I was writing this record. you know, 45, 46 years old, spiraling myself on purpose to get that grit, to get that passion that I felt when I was a kid, but to have it be genuine as an older man.

So instead of it just being me and my diary kind of record, I looked at the world, you know, coming out of the pandemic, all the infighting, all the hatred, all the division. And watching how this calculated world, this war-mongering world, like all. all of this manifesting in a very dark, ugly way. And I looked at that. And I had to really sort of, how can I help? You know, like, how can I help this world? And I know it sounds like a very big question.

And like, as a musician, you have to, you have to care enough to like want to put yourself in a position where I had to bleed. I had to bleed out my childhood. I had to bleed out what I went through during the pandemic, all the self-doubts, all that stuff to fully be present to who I am as an artist now to be present in this moment right here with you like you got to work on that and to be able to sit here like and be vulnerable and like let your guard down it's not easy no especially as like band guys we don't do that a whole lot well because there's posturing right we're taught not to actually right right you can't put your guard

there's a strength to that and people can clown on me all they want but like I'm not afraid to cry I'm not afraid to say this shit hurt. I'm not afraid to say I felt like a failure. You know, I'm not afraid. And if you can document that through your music and people see it and they, you got a fan for life. Yeah. Because it's real. That's the bottom line with all anything we're talking about right now, you and I right now in this moment.

This is real. Yeah. To be a real human, to be vulnerable, to not be afraid to look foolish maybe to somebody else. Like that's why we're still going as artists. You could do business and I much respect to you and your brother. You guys are killing it, but you're still artists at the end of the day. First. You might be business people, but, and it shows in the way you carry yourselves as business people.

And that's what makes it great because you care. Where a business world, you're not supposed to care technically, right? You're supposed to look at the bottom line, the numbers. And you can do that as a band too. You can be a we're going to be rock star as success. But if you didn't really care, it wouldn't work. No, yeah, yeah, I think that the greatest strength is what we thought was our greatest weakness. Amazing.

You know? That's wisdom. Yeah. I thought that caring was a weakness. And as I got older, I realized it is actually what made me special. And people are drawn to that. Yeah. And to be honest with people or to be vulnerable with people or to want to be friends with people, even.

Which is a breath of fresh air in the entertainment industry. Yeah. Because the entertainment industry you learn early on, there's snakes in the grass everywhere. Yeah. And you're really like taught by gatekeepers and stuff to be afraid of everyone in some ways. And it's interesting because we're like pretty vulnerable. Like I would say artists in general, we're like pretty vulnerable to bad actors and characters who could get in and, you know, and be that. And I think we learned over the over time like a lot of times like bands, don't communicate with one another, don't become friends with each other, because there's people

in the middle talking to both of them and blocking what could be like a really powerful. We are stronger together. So to pull resources is a thing. You have that, I have this. What if we share? What if you took? What if you have a little bit of what I have and what if you, that's the whole point of like touring together, like we're sharing. The idea that we could accomplish things faster together is not just an idea. It's true. It's a really true. So all the bands at MDDN, they do better when they all do better. You know what I mean? It's like, it's a community. That band's doing good. That bands, like, it all affects each other. And it's all, it's this like living, breathing organism. And every time more people come and the thing grows,

everyone has more success somehow. Right. And there's room for as many good songs as you, you can write. Yeah. So anyone that wants to come and be in a good band, there's room for another great band. It reminds me of like, you know, being in a bigger band and taking younger bands out.

Yeah. And showing them how it's done. Like, even with Killswitch, when we first tour with Maiden, it was like they were so kind to us. Yeah. And like,

even though we've been a touring machine for so long, all of us, we got on that tour and we're like this, to see the behind the scenes, the hundred or so people that they employ that get to know your name. Like, They showed us. To me, we changed after that.

We're like, these guys are elite class. So it's about being a leader, right? You can't, the difference between what you're doing and like a corporation is like the guy on top doesn't, he's never done the grunt work. In the trenches. So when he's calling shots, everyone in the company is like, it doesn't, it's not just numbers on a screen that doesn't make sense. Where if you're a leader and you've been through the trenches and you come up. And you say, hey, we should do this because X, Y, and Z. Like, you know it because you lived it.

That's, to me, where community and success meets where it's not about the money, but the money's going to come. Yeah, money is a byproduct of success. Right. But you helping somebody helps you, and that's how it should be, right? Yeah. Period. Yeah.

And it's beautiful, like, what you guys are doing. And I remember I reached out to both you guys through Ed Sullivan a long time ago, maybe like a year and a half ago. Yeah. I was kind of just in the dark headspace. What was it you think? You know, I don't really know. I think a lot of questions with the future, you know,

and how you guys were able to diversify your lives. I'm like, I'm kind of searching. I'm getting into that age where I'm like, what do I do outside of that? So I started to hustle outside of just Kill Switch, and it's actually opened a lot of doors. But I think that, you know, you get to an age where legacy, you mentioned earlier, I love that word,

because what is it? It isn't just a band. It's you as a person. What do you have to offer? as a person. Outside of who people think you are on stage, how do you carry yourself in your regular life? How do you carry yourself in other business ventures?

And that's kind of where I was at at that time. Like I felt a little lost. And I was kind of just like, these guys are doing it. That's interesting because my takeaway from that email and that exchange we had, which was really nice. One, I was a fan.

So I had a lot of respect for, I'm not just a fan, but like I have a, a lot of respect for bands, even if I don't know them over the years. It's very hard to have, to maintain, you know, decades long career and legacy. And so there's a first and foremost, there's just like a respect. But the exchange, I just thought, it seemed to me, it didn't seem like you were in a dark place. It seemed to you were in a very thoughtful, contemplative state.

That's what I took away. Okay. Me and Benj were both like, yeah, he's cool. He's super cool. I think he's contemplating things. The only reason I say this is because I think you have to define that spot you're in. It's important that you kind of frame it the right way. Well, now we're talking about it and you just said what you said. I see it differently now. I just don't think it was.

Not necessarily dark. Yeah, I don't think it was as dark as you might have. You've probably been in darker places. Oh, yeah. And so what you take anything in the world of contemplation, of which direction am I going can feel related to a dark spot where we didn't know where we were going. So they can get conflated a little bit. No, I see that. And the only reason I say that is because I do think that we have to frame ourselves to ourselves because I was raised in a house

with someone who struggled with deep depression, bipolar, those things. And until I started really working on myself in therapy and in other ways where I really started growing past what I had come from and what I had brought with me. PTSD. Yeah, PTSD, all those things and start unpacking those things. Some of them you can put away forever. I think that I learn like, okay, just because I'm in a state of contemplation and I don't know which direction I'm going to go, I got a feeling it's probably something like there,

but I'm in deep contemplation and it can be a little. scary because it's hard to acclimate with the you know i think like like one thing that we're always doing is is we're acclimating to our surroundings to our environment and that's a stressful thing because we're look we're actually like looking for threat like it's our it's in our it's in our code right yeah look for the bear right the bear is going to eat us survival flight flight yeah right so that's there but we respond to it sometimes inappropriately because it's like old stuff like that why is words my friend right yeah so if we all like i'm in therapy right right but it's real right so like no it is real over respond and we over we what i used to do was over respond so there'd be something that

kind of look like a threat yeah but if i stop now i'm wiser i have experience and i can also like the game is slowed down because i've worked on myself enough to know what i'm feeling i'm like wait why am i so anxious right now well that looks like a threat okay stop it's actually not a threat so i don't need even even respond. It's the power of the mind. But yeah, it is and it's old programming and it's and it's old shock, it's old experience, it's old trauma. So I go back to your our first exchange, which I thought was really nice and my takeaway from it. So it's interesting to hear your first description of it was like I was in a dark place. My takeaway was you were not in a dark place. You were in like a very kind of deep contemplation. Which is important.

to actually do in life. And then you got married about a year ago. August, yes, about a year ago, yep. Which is probably somewhere in the timeline of when we, maybe just after we talked to you, you probably got married. And things are so different now from that conversation. But bringing it up now and talk about it,

I feel like I'm learning something. It's interesting because I do think there was, you know, when you're defined or you define yourself, it's hard to do this when you're in a band, right? People know you as Jesse from Kill Switch Engage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I identify that. The pandemic was the first time

or I had to go, well, what else is there? Yeah, like, who else am I? And now I guess I'm feeling my age or maybe it was right before I got married or whatever was going on in my head of the time. You're right, it's not necessarily a negative thing. I was looking towards the future with a little bit of anxiety

because I'm like, what else? What else do I do? And I see how there are other people like, you know, even just in my own band, Mike, he does a graphic design. He's like, Adam produces. and like, I'm Jesse from Kelsich, what else do I do? So right after the time that we talked, I started to do guest vocals on a bunch of stuff.

I started to do vocal production. So I started to expand and enjoy it and go, oh, my God, I have more to offer. Absolutely. And now it makes me go, well, what else is there? Yeah, like what else? And the first question I always ask myself, because here's what I think you'll experience. The contemplation of the future, it makes us all anxious. So once we understand that,

and we kind of accept like it's okay like when i think about the future even right now this morning i was thinking about the future i was feeling anxious period like that's just human nature right right a lot of us do it in the morning some of us do it at night some people doomscroll some people do but there is this there is a part of human nature we have to think of the future because it's survival and it makes us all anxious if we can start to understand that that like that anxiety is okay if we know what it's it you know it's like just being aware of it kind of tapers it down a little bit like when I go whoa I'm fucking anxious why am I so fucking yeah well probably because of you know this that being said contemplation is actually like

one of the stages of success so we contemplate then we plan once we go around and around and we come up with the idea then we start planning then we start kind of of planning and testing. And then when we, when we've gotten to a place where we're like, yeah, no, we have a plan. Like, let's make a record or let's start a business. Then we go to action and then we're in the process. And so contemplation is actually probably the most important part of the process because we can really actually get to the good idea versus all the bad ones. And that's where the feelings come from. So underneath that layer of anxiety is some subconscious call that sometimes makes us feel anxious too. I think for me it was getting out of my

comfort zone. Yeah. That's what it was. I was looking for something. Yeah. Did you feel like you found it? Well, I'm on my way for sure. I feel like the wheels have started to turn and I like what you said. I've been testing the waters this past year. Yeah. Of like what I can do and you know, I'm getting ready to launch a jewelry thing, a beard. Like I'm just, I'm starting to look at the other things that I could possibly do. And that's exciting. Even if there's no quote unquote, success in it, I'm trying. And that feels good instead of just being sort of stuck in my own. Like, this is my one thing, putting all your eggs in one basket, for example. Like, as I get older and I'm contemplating my life and my future, I've allowed myself to branch out. And because, you know,

that the change in my brain started to happen then, I think I invited the opportunities to come. Yeah, you do. Because I changed my mindset. And if you lean into things you like. Right. like jewelry, right? If it's fun, if you like it. I do. Right, there you go. Look at me. You're in a position where you're likely to have success over time.

That's the other thing we always got to remember too is like just like a band, just like anything else, it takes time. And so if we choose things that we're really interested in that we really like and we make it a game we love to play, we will keep playing. That's why the band's worked. The fans that make it are the ones, you have to have good music, right? You have to be inclined to make music that other people agree on. And you have to stay together.

And the ones who stay together are usually the ones who like playing the game they're playing. It's like a fun game to them. It's exciting. And those are the ones who can keep getting back up. And the people who quit didn't like playing the game as much or something. I find that with business too, with jewelry or beard oil or whatever you do. If it's something you care about, you will, you'll, put in the miles and on the other side of that hill wherever that is if it's three years five years

on the other side of it is success yeah it's being able to pace yourself in a game you love to play and then just keep playing and i do because i'll get the emails and i'm like oh yeah oh yeah don't done this let me see the design this is cool and i'm showing everybody like yeah it's the same thing with marriage man yeah it's fucking marriage is hard but if you like it yeah if you're inclined to like it. You will keep getting back up and you'll keep trying and you'll and you'll and the the the hard periods get shorter and shorter and shorter then they're gone. Or you can revisit you know I've learned this in my relationship. I can revisit a we'll have an argument that reminds me at this other time and we've repaired so much quicker because it's like oh I remember how I reacted last time I'm not doing that

wisdom like gaining knowledge and wisdom and applying that to like you said relationships or business or career. Year one's the hardest year. Yeah. Once you get over year one, And then you're like, okay, starting to get this. And then you get to year five and you're like, okay. And then, you know, you start to, it's cool. It's worked, though. I mean, as with anything, you have to put in the work. You can't just neglect.

Yeah. And like, you know, especially with a touring mindset, I think in the early days in my first marriage, there was, when I went on tour, I would clock out. Yeah. And like, deal with it. Why you contacting me, like, go live your life. And I neglected it.

And now it's like, if my wife needs something, I'm like, what do you need? Like, I got you. Yeah. But I think that comes with age as well. Coming a man, if you will. Learning how to do that. It's interesting. Yeah, it's something that also, like we all get it in our own time,

but you got to want to get it. And there is something about taking responsibility. And even during the pandemic, you know, I started a podcast for a little while there called Stoke the Fire with my buddy Matt Stox. And we talked primarily about mental health. Yeah. Through the pandemic, that saved me.

That really gave me a lot of perspective. And then you want to talk about, like, relationships and touring. During the pandemic is when I realized I wanted to marry the girl that I was with. I realized that because take away all this other stuff. I was able to work on me. I was able to work on us without the band thing. And now that we have that foundation, it's different moving forward. But that can happen through therapy.

That can happen by talking about it. Keeping the, you know, not just band guys, creative people in general. We're all like got flawed things in our brain. That's why we're creative. But if we can support each other and talk about that, whether that's people in recovery or people learning to, you know, use alternative medicine and therapies to like psychedelic stuff to help their brain, like meditation, all that stuff is really important.

And I love, I mean, that's why I really love your podcast too, because I feel like you get inside the minds of people and inevitably mental health bubbles to the surface. It's number one. I mean, it just happens though. You're not forcing that. It just happens. Yeah, I would say this is like a mental health podcast at the surface, you know.

But it's not as boring as that. We're not addressing our specific issues, even though every now and then we share. Yeah. And people share. And I love it when people do because there's people listening that are dealing with like OCD or whatever it is. Like I like it when people share their actual experience because it. I just think it's interesting. I don't look,

I don't think any one singular person period is without some mental health deficiency of some kind. I think we all have our, we all have something. And some people just can mask it better than others. Some people have learned how to live in line. And in the lines, which is I think most people,

they go to school, the system that was built for workers, and they learn how to stay in the lines and they learn how to push things down, And they learn how to not feel their feelings and not trust their guts and not follow. Now, musicians like yourself, we're wild animals. We just feel stuff, say it. And so we're wild.

So in some ways, that's really attractive. That's really like people think it's cool. They wish it could be more like that. Right. And you go out and you make a life of touring and playing shows and this crazy music that's screaming and singing. And like, people are like, that guy's really fucking cool. He dresses how he wants.

He does that for a living. and to them that's like fucking dream and you're like what are you fucking talking about i'm tortured i hate my life i i'm miserable and like it's funny because it's just people we're all just people i think the wild thing though what you're saying is i felt like at a certain point in my life i didn't feel like i had the permission to complain right i didn't have the permission to go that i'm not okay right because there was enough people who were just like putting me on this pedestal right and i remember the exact moment yeah it was a during the The MySpace era when MySpace was like, and I actually went on, posted a picture of myself

and started talking about like, I'm not okay. Right. And that was the turning point for me that changed everything because this is right around the time where it was still kind of off the table to talk about being mentally ill or to have issues or especially if you're a touring musician in a band. Like people don't want to hear that shit. They want to hear about your rock star life. They want to hear about how you parted until four in the moment.

morning with, you know, guns and roses and like, they don't want to hear about like, right, they don't want to hear that that was you just medicating yourself. You're in a hotel room and you're thinking about killing yourself because you're so fucking sad and depressed because you feel so alone and you can go up on stage in front of thousands of people and feel absolutely alone. And when I started talking about that, that was a game changer for me. That's when everything changed where I started to have conversations with other musicians, you know, and felt less alone. Yeah.

And I could hand that over to my fans because I started writing about it. It was that album, um, a Killswitch album, which is probably not our best one, but incarnate was the name of the record. And it's kind of a, that's definitely a dark record for me. But I go back and read some of those lyrics. And I'm like, good for you, dude. You're really opening up about how you're not okay. And like, cut me loose was a song that I wrote.

And it's like, it's a sad fucking song about like talking about the news. I'm literally in my suicidal alliology, and I'm talking myself off the ledge. I'm gonna'amena. And, like my music, my hair can't change with me. And he has to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, potion nine,

of Sebastian Professional, has all what my hair needs. Nutrition Profunda. Protection against the encrespaid. 99% less of rotura and punas abirtas under control. New potion nine

of Sebastian Professional, the secret professional of who not are not siguencies, but of who What stage of your life was that like the worst? Would you say you struggled with that the most? When my, yeah, so it was, my marriage was falling apart.

What year was that? Oh, that would have been in 2016-17-ish. Yeah. When just like all the signs were like, shit is not okay. And I don't know what to do. I have no idea what to do. Right. And not helpless.

Right. Yeah, emasculated helpless. Right. Was it that at the time you felt like you were powerless to do anything about it? Or you like what about that? Like, listen, a really function, like me now at this age with the work I've done on myself. And I feel like you've done work on yourself too. So a lot.

Whether it's therapy or whatever. Yeah. So, but you've grown. Oh, yeah. So something about me now, I see exactly what you're saying. Because if I was at a younger age, let's say if I was in my early. 30s, right? So that's 13 years ago. Yeah. So it's not too far away from what you're saying. And my marriage was falling apart. I probably would have been suicidal. Well, throw an alcohol too. With two total alcoholics.

Of course. My acts raging and then me sort of a sympathetic alcoholic where if shit goes wrong, I'm like, oh, I don't know. So you guys are both in your, in like a spirally chaotic kind of messy spiral. Yeah. Yeah. So at this age now, though, if you said, okay, you've got to go through the dissolution of your marriage. I would be, I'd be sober. I would not touch the booze. I would be sober and I would be compassionate and I would be thoughtful and I would not feel helpless. I'd feel probably frustrated. I'd probably feel, especially for something I didn't want to happen. I would feel all kinds of negative emotions, but I would never be out of my body. Yeah, yeah. I would be confident. I would be organized and I would try to handle it with as much

grace and compassion as I could and work with my wife to figure this out if it was like so when I think about that if I had to go through what the worst thing on the planet let's say something like that right I would put that in the category of at least from where I sit right now where I love my wife I'm happy in my family I'm happy in my life I don't want that if I had to go through that I still would feel confident and in my body right and if I think back to my early 30s when I was just starting working on myself, I was dealing with a lot of the same stuff, right, that you're dealing with, that you were dealing with. I do think I would have felt the same way. I would have felt out of control. I would have felt like the world is ending. I would have felt like,

what am I even doing? And just like the messy chaos of hopelessness. Well, I like the term you keep repeating out of body, in body. Like now, I mean, when I met my wife now, when I first met her, I was still in not a great party mode just like raging single and just like medicating something kind of being a piece of shit for a little for a little while I was trying to be a piece of shit you know what I would say is like when I hear about those times where that we've a lot of us have gone through yeah I would say we aren't holding ourselves to a standard we know we can bear and we're not loving ourselves absolutely and we're not expecting more from ourselves and we're not holding ourselves up like we're important, like we're special, like we matter. That goes out the window though when you're depressed.

It's like a hopelessness. Yeah. But when I met my now wife, we were both kind of in that, and we both, like the term iron sharpens iron, yeah. Like we slowly but surely we're like, we're better than this.

We're better like. Yeah, we can do better than this. And now it's, you know, we're healthy. I mean, she really helped me a lot with my diet exercise. Like now, you're, look, pretty fit, dude. Yeah, I'm pretty decent. No, I was now. I was bloated and, wow. Yeah, you can look at a picture from 2018. You can pull it up and it's like, I'm bloated. I've been

raging and eating just garbage. Yeah. Yeah. So I eat lean, we exercise. We focus a lot on mental health. Like, I'm in a healthy relationship now. That's really good. We work on it. Yeah, you guys both care about it. I love her to death. She's amazing. That's awesome. She's a little warrior. And she comes from crazy like crack house, Staten Island ghetto. Okay. She's from Staten Island ghetto. Okay. She's from Staten Island. Yeah, she comes from a dark, deep, crazy place. So she's a warrior. Yeah.

And she saw the warrior and me and kind of reawaken that. How long have you guys been together? Six years now. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah, she's awesome. And you've been married a year? A year, yep.

Do you look back at your younger self from the first marriage? And by the way, I appreciate you sharing it. I mean, it's a tough thing. It actually, I think, is something that people need to hear, right? that you can survive. Yeah. And that, like, not every relationship is actually meant to be forever. I would bet that the experience made both of you better in the long run.

I can't speak for her. I don't talk to her anymore. But I'm definitely much better for it. A lot stronger, a lot wiser. And now I can sort of read the signs and, you know, avoid certain types of people. You know, we allowed snakes in our community that really helped dismantle it. It's tough. So now my friend circle, like my eyes are wide open.

If somebody sidesteps a little bit, I'm like, bye. Yeah, you can organize people where they should be. Me and my wife are very protective. I think when you come, when you get to a place where you are not hopeless, this isn't the last deal you're going to be offered. This isn't the last person you're going to meet. It's not so desperate anymore. It's not so desperate.

Which is a nice place to be in. Not everyone can say that. But you have to get there here. Yeah. before you get there here. Yeah. I really believe that we have to see it for ourselves before we have it. The same way you did with your band.

The same way. Yeah. It's real. We manifest everything. People always joke about prayers. I think, you know, I don't even, I pray all the time, but I see it as a manifestation, you know, exercising gratitude and then, you know, asking for insight and guidance. Like, if you do on a regular basis, you're going to get what you're asking for because

the brain's going to follow what you're putting out there in the world. That's powerful. So thoughts and prayers are actually powerful, but going way back to what we were talking about earlier, without works, it's dead. So you got to put the work. It's all of that. Yeah.

you think about Kill Switch Engage and you think about legacy like we talked about. what do you hope the legacy of Kill Switch Engage is? And let's say like let's look forward. Right. Right. Like you guys have a great legacy. And another 10 years. when you look at your band's legacy, like, do you have any, like, hopes? You guys still have some miles on you. Like, you can, there's still tread on the tires, I think. I certainly hope so, because I feel like this record we just put out

is our best work in a long time. It's a re, I feel like it's a new chapter. It's reignited my desire for number one, a message. Like, to me, that's more important than anything. You know, a song like I believe, for example, which was our first song to hit number, too which is fun i don't care the accolades the accolades aren't necessarily the main thing but that's nice to know rock radio gave it love and the message behind that song is faith it's love it's compassion it's

everything's going to be all right like bob marley said you know like i love that statement and i channeled that type of energy so for me number one over anything personally is the message of love compassion and, you know, the yearning for understanding the meaning of life, dealing with the dark things, you know, there's a little bit of like still anti-government, anti-system, still in there. But take me out of the equation, songwriting, the music is just beautiful. Like, these guys write beautiful music. So there's the songwriting, there's the message,

and then the fans are a huge part of that legacy. The more fans, because we did a bunch of me, and greets in the past couple years. They honor us with such amazing stories. And when you hear the impact that your music has had on people, that's a whole other thing has nothing to do with you anymore. That to me is more what a legacy is as opposed to you actively thriving and pushing out an artistic thing. Yeah, it's less like a- It's what happens after. It's less like an achievement on paper. It's more like the stories people tell. Which is why I think is how you become We're still relevant to a lot of people because it's definitely relevant.

It's them. Yeah. And we all, all five of us, very aware of that. So being in gratitude on a regular basis, even on the hard days, when you're out on the road and you're whatever, I always have this like, I'm still doing this. This is amazing. You get on stage and you look and you, you know, see the same people that are coming to the shows over and over again who know every single word. Then they're bringing their kids 10 years later. The kids know that is like, wow.

I see that a lot. And it gives them life. Yeah. Like they need it. That gives us life to see that. It's just, that's it. I feel that. The reciprocal energy of when art becomes culture, right?

We're part of a culture. You want to say heavy music as a blanket. Look at how far has heavy music's come. Since, you know, I started listening to heavy music in the late 80s, early 90s. Yep. To see what was like a hush, hush in the corner. like heavy music's over here. Heavy music's everywhere around the world.

You can go to anywhere in the world. Yeah. And someone's going to know good Charlotte, Killswitch Engage, thankfully. And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah. I at least know one or two songs. Yeah. That's amazing.

I'm happy to be included in. Amazing. With Killswitch. It's true. It's true. I'm very happy to be included with you, man. Yeah. It's interesting, too, because you guys have been nominated for Grammys,

I think three times. Yeah. Which is a huge accomplishment. Gold and platinum. some records, obviously you've toured, you've played with, all the bands you guys have played with. You've had the experience. Like, you've had the whole experience. It's far greater than I ever thought.

Right. But I would bet what's interesting because we're not old. I'm in better shape now that I was in my 20s. That's the thing. It's like we're actually, we're more experienced, we're more aware, we're better at what we do. I would say. And more, I'm more present on stage now than I was back then too. More present when we're together.

More, I would say as a unit we're better communicating with one another. If we put our mind to anything, I would bet we could accomplish it as these like men now that have all the decades of experience we have. And it's interesting because I actually think the next two, I would say the next like, let's call it 15 years. Let's just say 15 years. we're poised to do our best work if we want to. Right.

And I think those of us have to see it. So I think that there's something about our state of mind as we go forward and we go like, what do we want our legacy to be? Exactly. I'm right with you. I just had this experience in Brazil. We were playing these big shows in Brazil. And that was what I experienced was people's stories.

Hundreds of people, just their stories that were like. come to the hotels, and that's the legacy is people's stories, but what they say about your music and where they were and what they were going through. But is there anything else you want to let cover? My only thing I would say, period, is just live with gratitude, everybody out there, count your blessing, start your day with gratitude in your heart, list what you're grateful for. Be careful of how much time you invest in social media and comparison. I've taken that with me through my life, and it's me.

made me, that's part of the work that I've done, is start your day with gratitude. And I'm so grateful for everything that I have. I love that. And it's really helped me to frame different things in my life, because if you have gratitude in your heart, you're going to approach everything with such a different state of mind. I think that gratitude is the single most important part of our happiness. I really do. I start every day. Now, I had to train myself. Now, it's not a thought. It's not even something I have to think like, okay, what's my gratitude? I did it long enough where now I wake up in a state of gratitude. I go to bed in a state of gratitude. And most of my day, that's my reset point. Yeah. Is always back to some form of gratitude, which is like

something like, this coffee's really good. Or look at that fucking view right there. Or there's gratitude in action is something like enjoyment, enjoying something. Yeah, yeah. And it's like that. what gratitude for me feels like like these shoes are really comfortable they are by the way yeah same so it's like it's like some gratitude for me is something like enjoying your day but that's beautiful yeah because it's simple but it's so profound so yeah because it's the building blocks of your happiness those little moments like happens all the time for me it is getting to meet a cool ass guy like you which i knew i liked you before i met you likewise the thing that stands out to to me about you and I think it's just take it away with you is it feels like I'm meeting someone

who's in their own life and they're being themselves and that is the thing that I think we're all trying to get to is just a place where we like ourselves and we're being more us every day and we're walking towards the version of us you know what I mean? Yeah, I like that that we like. Yeah. And I think that's the point of life. I think the point of life. I think the point of life is to be, is to continue to level up who you are like, the version of you that is more and more and more. Yeah. And then my mother and me has to say this because you can spread that to other people. And that's where your impact is. If you love yourself, that love outpores to other people. And you can encourage them to love themselves. And you can encourage them to be themselves.

Because the thing that I take away every time I sit with another guy in a band specifically is my career is not supposed to be your career and your catalog is not supposed to be my catalog. You know, like we are on unique paths that are similar. So there's a lot we can share. There's a lot we can relate to. There's probably a lot of insights we could share. But if we zoom all the way out and we're like talking to everyone listening,

whether they're in a band or not or whatever they're doing with their lives, you are not supposed to be anyone else. You are actually supposed to be you. And the journey is, is like, and the game we're playing is, is what does it mean to be me? And what does that mean? And how does that feel? And if it's something that you don't like, you can change it. Yes.

And so that's the power part is we're not helpless. And we're not hopeless. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's what keeps us. Yes. So having you here today was one of those conversations, which I really, uh, cherish. I appreciate you, man. Likewise. And I'm a fan of the podcast. So it's cool to

be in this chair and do this. Dude, it's awesome. Well, you come back again. Hell yeah, bro. Next record. To do it. So this record's out. When did this record come out? Six months ago, maybe? Okay. I think ish. Any tours? Oh yeah, we're going to Europe with, um, hayprey decapitated, uh, fit for an autopsy. Hey, breed, decapitated, fit for an autopsy. And then, uh, employed to serve. So we're doing two runs. We're doing a UK Europe. and then it's strictly Europe. Yeah, we got employed to serve.

Hell yeah, I'm looking forward to it, too. And then another record. Yeah, I mean, eventually. I want to come back. Yeah, I would love to, man. I appreciate you. Yeah, dude. Hell yeah, yeah.

Thanks for coming, bro. Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram at Artists. And you can watch us on YouTube and Veeps. Leave comments. I always read them.

See you next. time.