Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - John O'Callaghan of The Maine

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

This week on Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by John O'Callaghan of The Maine. The Maine are celebrating a big year. After another unmissable year of Sad Summer, where they headlined (and performed a pretty great cover of Taylor Swift’s “cruel summer”), the band released their ninth studio album, and first self-titled project, in August. They’re also in the midst of touring their Sweet 16, where they’re reflecting on nearly two decades of being a band by performing sets featuring songs from all of their albums night after night. Grab tickets here. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to my friend John O'Callaghan from the Maine. Let's go. Smoking off, if that's my kind, I don't want no bad times. I don't want to have bad. John. Good afternoon. Thanks for coming, dude. Thanks for having me. I'm stoked to talk to you. Likewise. So to me, the Maine has really kind of written the book. for like a modern think about when you guys started early 2000s let's just say in the last 20 years the industry changed you guys were everyone says like oh my god how was it when the when everything changed and everything went to streaming i was like it was it was bad for bands who were selling CDs in the 90s we came up in that time and so we weren't ready for it but there was a whole

crop of bands that like charge the hill and we're born into it so that's all they know so all you guys have known it feels like as a band is an ever-changing fast-moving music industry landscape type you know where you just have to be resourceful and innovative and do things different and it feels to me like you guys wrote the book on independent career like a band that can actually have an independent career where you've built this huge fan base. You behave. To me, it's like watching you guys has made me just feel really good about what's possible for bands coming behind you.

I appreciate it. That can build a life for themselves and be independent and feel. I think very early on, we looked at other bands and definitely not like emulating their exact maneuvers, but like, what is it about artists that you look up to? Like, why do you revere these people in such high regardants? Like, a band like Wilco. Yeah. And we had the opportunity to just tour their loft by chance in Chicago. And that band to us is like the perfect example of, like, where we'd like to be, you know, in 20 years or in 30 years and just continuing to create.

but on your own terms, you know. Totally. I think being intuitive and following that intuition, I think is really important. I think we turned inward very early. And I think we tried, and maybe to a fault, you know, I think we probably closed ourselves off to a lot of maybe relationships that could have been beneficial and people that could have helped a lot. but I think we had to figure out who we were

and what principles we stood for early so that that could slowly open the door to like, all right, now we're willing to, you know, operate in somebody else's world and let people into our world and not be so closed off to the idea of collaboration. We were at the very tail end. So when our first record came out, I think 2007,

they were still selling records, right? But it was, I think, I think we were at the very, very end of that. Yeah. And it's been a constant pivot from every platform. You know, we started on MySpace. And before we even toured, we were messaging people four hours, five hours a day. Just, hey, check our music out.

Hey, if we ever come on tour, come check us out. Right. And that still kind of remains the same, but it's just a different platform, a different name now. So it's ever evolving for sure. Yeah, we met on that first record, first, your first touring, one of your early tours. It was our first big tour. Okay. Yeah, the first couple tours were just, I mean, DIY, just like suburban, playing to nobody,

seeing people in West Virginia smoke crack outside the venue. Yeah. That kind of vibe. Yeah. You know the vibe. It gets weird. It just gets weird. But that was our, yeah, I remember Chicago was the first show of that soundtrack of your summer tour.

Yeah. And we went into it, you know, obviously being huge fans of Good Charlotte, growing up on your music. And we went into it. I remember being in the van and being like, I wonder if we'll like meet anybody. Yeah. Like not being really familiar with tours. Yeah, yeah. And I remember we're all sitting in our dressing room and you and Bench came in.

And just we're like, hey, what's up guys? And I don't even know if any of us spoke. I think we're just like, yeah. I always found you guys to be very thoughtful and quiet. Yeah. But one of my favorite bands after meeting you and then going on to watch you guys over the years. And certainly we've run into each other and our bands have run into each other over the years. But watching people from that point where you know it's early.

and seeing who they become is a thing. You know, it's really gratifying to see people that you thought were who they are. That's who you guys are. You guys have always been thoughtful. To me, it looks very natural. Like, it looks like you guys are being who you are. This journey you guys have been on and this thing you've built, it feels right to me. And like Wilco is one of the bands that actually me and Bench talk about with you guys.

when we say what when we try to predict outcomes for people when we see the path they're on because that's a real thing too is like predicting outcomes is a part of actually a part of life that we I don't think that we give enough credit to like we make it more of like I hope this works but if we stop and we go what outcome would we like can we organize towards that and then adjust as we go and we can't control completely control the outcome but we can imagine an outcome that we like? Only in the last few years have we actually vocalized what goals are. And I think that is a really big thing that we were sleeping on for so long because...

But we're not taught to do that. No. But also it feels, it can feel unnatural, you know. I don't know a ton about speaking things into existence, but goal setting, vocalizing goal setting helps create that shared... synergy, you know, like that, that energy that's put behind a shared vision. And I think we have just been kind of going with the flow for so long and kind of internalizing all those. And making gut decisions and instigants. And when you have a band of multiple people, there might be five different

visions, you know, they all might be circling the same kind of, you know, same general area. But yeah i think when you vocalize it and everybody's like oh yeah we that would be amazing to play this venue or that wouldn't be amazing to do this idea i think that's definitely helped us in the past couple years for sure so me and benj talk about you guys and we we we named bands like wilco even pearl jam um bands that like have gone their own road and it's a long road and and it's a tough road it's a tough road but there it's a culture that's a culture that's a that you build slowly. We got so lucky with the group of people that follow and dig what we do to have that,

you know, sometimes it was a big group, sometimes it was a not so big group, but there was always a core of people that were like, yeah, we'll follow you down this crazy idea, down this crazy path. And I think we got so fortunate that we got that core group because it allowed us to sometimes waver, to sometimes falter, and to sometimes succeed, you know, and I think, I mean, there's that old, like, you know, the thousand true fan model or whatever that, I don't know who coined it, but it really is a real thing, because when we were on MySpace, those first shows didn't have anybody there, but even if there were six people,

some of those six people still go to shows 16 years later. Yeah. And they were the ones that were spreading the word and helping the whole thing permeate to bigger groups. And then sometimes when we put out our third record and we were like, total fuck you to the label, that group got small,

but it was still pretty concentrated. And I think we just got really, really fortunate. And now you guys, do you guys have your own label? So we have done the past couple of records with photo finish. Okay. So Mike Marquis, who books us.

Yep. And again, that was, we'd been so closed off to the idea, but to have people in their camp that are familiar with where we come from, made it less scary. Yeah. Made it like, okay, they've been, Mike's been around since day one. So it's, it made it a lot easier than just a, hey, let's go sign a big deal and that be it. Yeah, yeah.

Pat and I are. We're dads, so Thanksgiving's a big deal. Big time. Both of our wives are pregnant. With number two? Pat will be, this will be his third. Third, okay. And this will be my second.

Two's good. I have two. And my dad keeps saying it's man coverage at two, but you go to zone when you got more than two. That's it. So two, I find with two kids, it's really nice. It's really easy. The first year you're getting used to it. Like you have the baby and then it takes like 12 to 18 months to get like adjusted.

Sure. But then once you get through that, it's easy, smooth sailing, man. It's like, it's such a, it's such a good. My toddler right now, it's like, it's like legitimately living with an insane person. Yeah. Like, like so much to the point where I'm like, I'm scared around like, oh, what do you need? Like just trying to like diffuse another like outburst. Yeah.

ticking toddlers are wild man they're they're like coming into the world and just like grabbing everything for sure but then you miss it it's wild and it's exhausting yeah and then they get they're seven and you're like oh man I miss and now my my kids are teenagers and you kind of you get a little sad you're like for sure I blanked and she's about to be two and it's oh dude it's crazy you got to save her every minute of it. My kids are 14 and 15, about to be 16. Yeah, so I would have met. I don't even know if I would have met. We met before I had kids. Yeah. So my first kid was in 2008. So it was right around the time. That was very close to the time. Yeah. So Nicole would have been pregnant when we met probably. Or maybe we would have had that first kid around anyways. I think you did. I think you did.

You actually definitely did because I remember. We definitely had the baby on tour. Yeah. Definitely had. Yeah. Harlow was on the road with us. And then my son came in 2009. You know, it's those first two, three, four, five years of getting your family set up and figuring out how do we do this is it's like, it's like I always kind of go back to building businesses and building things.

It takes like five years to get your core. system down and and then after that it's like there was no life before that it's hard to remember did the second kid really fuck the system up no no it actually made it better okay and and it's because it's so easy the four of us just we can travel yeah we can you know a foursome is really good i'm not saying now i'm saying the immediate shock of it was it like i'm just trying to prep here. Parenting is no matter. Parenting is work.

Yeah. Just like anything else, this is my perspective. So anyone else that's listening as a parent can tell me you're wrong. But this is my philosophy. You get out what you put in. It's hard, but you just got to figure it out with each little challenge that comes. This kid has this or that kid's doing that. And then you have to work with your partner to figure.

out what works for both of you. So another thing I think we, I've been in, I've been, I've been married for 13 years this December, but I've been with Nicole for 17 years. And people are like, how do you do it? And I'm like, I don't know how we do it. I think it's where there's room for both of us to be right and wrong. And we don't pretend that we're this perfect. I'm very careful to try to show the world my family because I think sometimes we show these perfect pictures. and like I know how hard it is to do things like build a family, build a company. So I'm always careful like, of course we want to celebrate the wins. We want to show people like, look, we won this, we celebrate another anniversary or whatever.

But the truth is, is the whole time you're just working just like the band. You're just figuring it out as you go and you're trying to make gut decisions with hopefully a vision of the future together. And I think it's something like what you said, talking about what you would like this to become is important for just not only your business or your band, but your marriage or your relationship as well. And you and I have two people participating in that.

So I think like with raising kids, you're just kind of figuring it out as you go. It feels like you're spinning all these plates. It always feels like you're like behind the ball a little bit. you're always kind of tired. I think that's the experience that everyone has. And if you just commit to that, what I now tell new parents is like,

even though this is your first kid, just remember you're not the first people to have a baby. No matter what, it's great if you discover a new way to do this. That's great, right? Because I also have that experience where all these new parents will be like, this is what we're doing.

We've got them on this system. When we were having our first, my dad again he's you know you buy all the stuff you got to get the the diaper warm the the wipe warmer and all this crap and he's like god forbid we don't have the you know the diaper warmer how would the baby ever survive how has any baby how has any baby ever live exactly in the history of babies survived without that was definitely a comforting thing you know where it's like you got to remember that yeah And old guys, we say that.

We're like, oh, like, trust me, like, babies were being born in mangers. Right? Your baby's fine. Yeah. And it's just funny. And I'm not being sacrilegious. I just say, I say things like that because it's like, guys, the babies has been going on for a while.

The baby's okay. And if you take the weight out of it and you just go, but you do get what you, What you put it in, you get out. So especially men, we have a tendency to want to disconnect, run, detach from things that we don't understand are things that feel, you know, uncomfortable or unnatural or whatever. And I always say, like, try to stick in there where you get uncomfortable and, like, sit in the discomfort as long as you can and gain some resilience. I mean, but isn't that, I mean, not to like tie it back into the.

the music thing, but isn't that or just any venture that you're on, that's kind of the place of most growth, right? Like, that's where you will. Yeah, I mean, there's that great, I think it's David Bowie quote, but it's like, he always wanted to wade out into the water and that feeling of not being able to touch, right, when you get off the shore to not being able to touch the ground anymore. That's where he always wanted to be. And I think that's such a vivid kind of picture of how growth happens, you know.

I totally agree. I think that most people, when you go into uncharted territory for yourself, you want some comfort and reassurance, but that doesn't exist there. The only comfort and reassurance I can give to someone that's starting anything or building anything is like, if it feels like you're threading the needle and you're just keeping your head above water, that means you're doing it because that's what it feels like the whole time. And I think we even just like in our businesses and lives, we still feel like we have accomplished nothing and we're still keeping our head above water

because we're pushing forward and we keep going into deeper waters. And I think that like you just start to get a ton of resistance. resilience around that feeling of like, I don't know exactly which move is next, but I think I'm going to feel it when it's time and I've just got to keep gaining ground. And that's the feeling that probably generally separates whether or not a person continues down a path or not. And I think that is probably the most sound piece of advice that I could offer a person starting out any venture, whether it's a band or a business or anything. Even a family. Even a family. is just the biggest difference between people is there are people that do and there are people

that run. And I think that that's the biggest thing for us and our band has been just continuing. Like when it got hard, it got hard, it got shitty. You just have to keep your head down and keep plowing. And yeah, that's a, I'm scared to have a second kid. Everything that I am today and that I do today is exist. because of my family. And I say like I work to support my family habit.

So I love what I do. I love my job, but my family, it's next level. It's my religion. It's sacred ground for me. And good Charlotte, interesting, like was the model for me because I didn't have a state, I didn't have a very like good model for how to build a family. So my parents struggled in that department.

A lot of good, they both had good qualities, but they definitely didn't have, the tool set to build a family. Sure. So that experiment failed miserably for them. And that was my model. Because it does feel like when you meet someone you say, I want to spend my life with you, an experiment.

And we add the wrong things into the experiment, it blows up. But if you add the right things, it can be this really good thing. But I'll meet younger couples that are starting down that road and they'll get into that first year of marriage or second year of marriage first kid i'm like this is really tough i don't know if we can do it that's how all of us feel when we're climbing a mountain absolutely can this is tough can i do it everyone's asked themselves that question and i don't care who you are so you got to remember that every time anyone's gone down this uh climbed this mountain before they said wow this is really tough it's steep can i do it and the ones who did it kept going so i i always say like you just got

keep doing it it sounds like such a platitude yeah to just do it but it's like as you get older these platitudes just start making more sense and it's like well yeah no shit that's why that person's been saying that for and even if you think this thing you guys are dealing with is a big thing it will be a small thing further up the mountain right and so you got to keep climbing together you got to make room for each other and you got to have grace with each other um i've been lucky have a partner who's very gracious. Like she just never met anyone like her who can just not judge. Right.

Once she's decided she likes you, she likes you. So I think that's been a big deal for me. I've learned a lot from that because I used to be a little like, but I think that was my own insecurity. It's like too harsh. Like why would you do that? And it's more, it's not personal. A lot of times when people make mistakes, it's not personal.

They made a mistake on their own. They're dealing with their own shit. Now, you both have to want to grow, improve, get better as people individually and together. But like I always tell new married couples, people in relationships, and anywhere in the first 10 years, like by year 10, you will have figured out a bunch of shit and you'll never have to figure it out again. And you can build a really powerful thing that powers the rest of your life. because I really believe that like this second version of our career where we've been doing things that we think are interesting is powered by great family, by wives who support us. We can go home on a bad day and shut it off and recharge.

And it gives us that energy to go in the next day and keep going forward. Totally. And if we didn't have that, I think we wouldn't have the ability to kind of navigate new waters and build these things we're building. So family to me is like super powerful for your own success. Absolutely. Especially having somebody that supports a lifestyle that's not as routine. Not conventional.

Yeah, not conventional. Being away is tough, you know, but being supported by somebody that understands. Now is the main, is it wives and kids now backstage? Is it like a family function? Definitely. It's definitely changing. That's cool. Yeah. That's good vibe.

Absolutely. It's, uh, yeah, it's not rowdy. Rowdy is like, we got pineapple on our pizza. Yeah, yeah, that's wild. So it, for me, I love it. I ordered pizza the other day and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to get a slice of Hawaiian. I don't know why I was listening to like.

I'm feeling crazy. Yeah, I was listening to a podcast or something. I might even go get a milkshake. I don't know. I took a couple bites of the Hawaiian slice, and I got right back to my staple pizza is half cheese, half pepperoni and mushroom. All right.

I feel like in our camp, it's like, everybody says let's get pepperoni, and then we get a cheese and it's demolished. You always have to get a cheese because it will be gone. Everyone always thinks they want toppings, and then they see the cheese, and they're like, God, a good slice of cheese pizza. Oh, yeah.

I think on the last tour, I think we got pizza literally. every single night. Do you guys eat, is anyone else here a big Hawaiian pizza guy? I don't mix it up. The salty sweet. Seltie sweet. Every now and then. Yeah.

They have pineapple wrapped in bacon Oh, dang. See, I'm not really, yeah. I'm fine with the pineapple. I'm not a ham guy. I could buy the bacon wrap. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, all right. He's getting spicy, right?

Yeah, yeah. So it's coming up on 20 years for you guys as a band if it hasn't already hit. Yeah, well, it's 16 right now. 17 will be January. Yep. Yeah. So it's, yeah, speaking of like vocalizing goals and, you know, that's the next, we've got to figure out because just like, it's really easy to get wrapped up in the moment. Yeah.

You know, and it's really, really difficult sometimes to see a couple years down the road. But that's the next big milestone for us. You feel like you've done everything you set out to do, or do you feel like, do you get down the road and go, oh, we said, we didn't set the bar high enough there. Let's keep, let's move the bar up. Let's keep going. Like, do you feel that? I think kind of like you said, it's really, you know, maybe to a fault sometimes.

I get too focused on not appreciating things that we have and things that we've accomplished, just in hopes to keep going, to keep accomplishing new things. I'm the same way, dude. It's like, not that I'm not happy. It's just like, well, why aren't you acknowledging that this thing was really awesome, you know? Even like last night, sometimes, you know, first show, it's not that I was bummed out. It was an amazing show. San Diego was sick.

It was awesome. But it was like, I had a lot of like, I could have done this better. I could have done this better. And it's kind of that same approach to the band that like, I just feel like I need to take a step back sometimes. And I think having a kid puts a timeline on things. Yeah. You know, you start seeing like, oh, this is when they were crawling.

Oh, that was when I played that show. Oh, this is when they were walking. That's when I did that thing. And I think that helps put some perspective on things. This tour somehow is, it'll be our most successful tour in all 16 years that we've been a band. Yeah, I believe that. But it's, it's one of those ones where you're saying, like, did we set the bar high enough? Or we're experiencing the bar right now.

Like, what's going to come after this? Like, what are we set ourselves a new precedent? Like, what is next? And I think that's the confusing part. And that's, like, again, that uncomfortable zone where it's like, And maybe that's the best place to be. I've never gotten comfortable. But I'll tell you this, I think from my experience,

because I'm 10 years ahead of you probably in life, at least 10 years older than you. One, I think you have to separate two things. Because I had to learn how to celebrate in moments where something good happened. Because I was so focused on just, I never stopped thinking about forward, forward, forward, next next next I think that's a strength and I don't think we need to change that sure I think you got

to kind of embrace that about yourself we're a bit like athletes in some ways but the game we you know I always thought I wanted to be an athlete I just wasn't a very good athlete but I I loved sports and I loved watching people achieve things and look and also watching a guy stand up there and get a trophy or to me it just looked like that's what you want in life I never got a trophy and I wanted a trophy, you know, and I think that was my own self-esteem thing. But I don't think it's bad that we go into everything we do in the creative space. My brain always organizes around, okay, now how do we get this? How do we do this?

How do we go forward? Go forward. But learning how to do that and at the same time, not wrestle with it and just know that's just who I am. And then also have a relationship with my brother where he can go, he can go, okay. not right now. Like you can, that's a thought you just keep to yourself right now while the rest of us over here we celebrate this little milestone and this thing we achieved, however big or small it feels to you.

Because I just don't think, I mean, we could get the biggest thing in the world. And to me, it still just doesn't feel like that big because it's not, that's not how I'm measuring like how I feel. For sure. I just want to go forward. For sure. It's hard to. And then you get a.

a taste of like oh that's achievable and now i'm hungrier you know and it's like and that's the insatiable kind of but i learned something about it as i talk to my therapist about it i love my therapist he's a fucking g he's just like you're a gamer you're playing a game it's not the size you could get a big win you can get a small win and you do enjoy it you do kind of like spike the football but then you go right back and you're like okay next play because you're like this highly ADD, ADHD, obsessive person. Nicotine, caffeine. Caffeine, nicotine, go, go, go, go, go.

And he's like, you just need to learn how to dry. What I've kind of used the metaphor is flying the plane is learning how to fly the plane is like learning when and where and becoming super conscious of like the aspects of you and then how to contain certain aspects of you so that they don't mess things up in certain places. So when I'm with my kids, I need to turn that off or contain it. That's the tough, that's the tough bit. It is. They don't necessarily, they're not gaming like you are. They may want to just do something to express themselves and they don't care how it scales. And I'm thinking, like, the minute they do something like, okay, this is what we could do. We could start a brand.

We could do this and you could do that. And that's the thing I've had to learn how to contain because it's a game I like to play. Yeah. That not every. everybody wants to play, but people can participate in different ways. And I think like learning how to celebrate milestones and take a minute and be there with the group and not be in my head off dreaming up some other thing is like an exercise I had to learn how to do just like being present with my family was a practice that I had to, it took me 10 years and a lot of work. And it was really frustrating for my wife a lot of times because I was always thinking often

La La Land about the next adventure instead of just being there, being present. And I think we have to learn how to love ourselves completely in what we are and the quirks we have and the things we have and then learn how to organize them all. You know what I mean? Totally. But family, they teach you that. I was going to say having a dynamic around you, whether it's your immediate family or your family on the road or whoever it is.

I think that's, I mean, it's got to be a testament why you guys are still around and it's got to be a testament why we're still around. No doubt. Family. And that's a really difficult thing to articulate to somebody who asks like, well, why is good Charlotte still around as a band?

Couldn't even explain. That's what I'm saying. And I think first and foremost, you just got to be able to be yourself around that unit. and enjoy each other's company. You know, I think that's a big thing. You gotta love each other. Yeah.

Because you see bands that are still together. But you can tell. But you kind of go like, it just feels like they're phoning it in. And it doesn't look fun. The Eagles. Yeah, you're like, let's get together and do a big tour and like make a bunch of money.

Yeah. That's tempting for anyone. Yeah, yeah. Right? Creed. Yeah, like, like, it's true. I don't know. I couldn't give you a good example, but I've seen it before,

and it's on the tip of my tongue, where I've seen a band and be like, man, they literally all just stepped on stage and are just getting through this. So, Anna Mena. And, like my music, my hair changed with me and has to be able to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian Professional,

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Absolutely. Absolutely. And fortunately, I mean, with your camp back when we first met you with Gary and all that crew. Gary, Ferencheck. I mean, it's like. I just saw him. Did you?

He came out. We did the Vegas show. Oh, that's amazing. And we got the whole crew together. We got Mark, our tour manager, Mark Holloway. Yeah. Gary Ferencheck. A bunch of people came out.

I mean, we had a big crew there. We brought the whole GC machine back as far as like production, Piro. So we had a big crew and it was such a nice like family reunion. I mean, you guys taught us so much about that by just operating the way you did and employing the people around you that you did. And that we took a page completely out of your book and just surrounded ourselves with quality people. People that you trust their character. You trust them.

They raised us. Absolutely. What I learned from the. good people in the early years of my career and in my formative kind of adult years, because I think I was a late bloomer. I think I was really unevolved and unkind of conscious until my mid-20s probably. I think that's when I started going like, oh, I'm an adult, you know. What I learned from those guys that I definitely try to carry, and I think I have now is, I don't think we give enough credit to values.

How many people stop and go, what are my values? Like, what are the key values that I think are the most important to the core of who I am and what I do? Can I establish up on the wall at MDDN, we have our values, like our core values? I think if you actually take the time to sit down as a group and go like, what are our values? I think I learned that from those guys that were the adults in the room. when we were touring. And then I think now I look at if our values align when I'm going to do anything with anyone, I try to establish like, do my values line up with theirs?

And not from a perspective of I'm better than them or they're better than me. More just will this work based because I think also with family, I actually believe that my touring crew and band, when I say good Charlotte, we grew up together from high school I actually believe that they gave me the value system and the model to actually have a wife and kids and be 17 years into it and go, oh, I actually have a family. That was the model. And then what the family taught me was values. So I think that you start to become more and more conscious of like, this is in line with who we are and what we do and this is not.

So yes and no is super, you get there really quick. you're not confused and you tend to be more productive when you're making the right calls and and i think values are more important than almost like the perceived result sure of something and those touring days those early touring days and those guys guys around were really they really nurtured like good values and there were certainly people around too that didn't that nurtured bad values as well well. And those people kind of just like found their way out. Naturally. Naturally. Because when you really do hold the value like paramount to everything, it really like clarifies lots of stuff. But I think one thing I had to learn how to do is actually like you said, say the our idea of our,

our vision, our goal, all the result we'd like. The same way you have to say that, you also have to define your values and kind of like figure out at the core like what do you value the most because you can also it's not I'm not saying like all values are like honesty and and yeah yeah and you know I think there's also just a natural gravitational thing that happens yeah right like it's like when you're younger and your parents are like don't hang out with the bad kids you know sometimes you hang out with the bad kids and you figure out whether or not you like the bad stuff yeah birds of a feather flock together you're like yeah they do but also you want to fly in a couple different flocks sometimes i think the older that i get the more i realize like uh and especially

having a family i just want to be very intentional with my time you know i think time is the most valuable thing we have to share and i think intention is really really important and i think having the intention of like i'm going to spend time with the this person because I think subconsciously you're not really thinking, I mean, maybe you are, but I don't think I'm really thinking like out loud like the values that this person has. I'm just, you know, I think I'm just gravitating towards character and towards those values and choosing to spend time with those people as opposed to, in my opinion, wasting time with, I guess, energies that don't really provide.

Yeah, that's just feel. A good instincts. Like it goes back to the main. You guys have good instincts. You know who you are. It seems like that. And you make main decisions. That's what it feels like.

When you watch from the outside, it doesn't feel like you're being pulled. Even if you don't know, even if we haven't known who we were, we were fully in on whatever it was that we were doing. You guys are dope. I think you just got to do that. Thank you. It's one of the bands I've been the happiest to watch. That's awesome. We've always had a great.

We've always, our bands have always had a great relationship with each other. Um, it feels like true, warm support. Mm-hmm. There's zero in the middle that isn't just all, you know, it's weird because you, you know that like it's hard to sometimes relate to bands. Like they're all these different, they're just different organisms. And we're all just like kids at a party together. It feels like I think sometimes.

And so you're kind of. of like, I think like, then there's those relationships that just feel like pure. And that's how it's felt from the day we met you guys on that tour for the rest of time, it's just felt like nothing but warm, love, support. Yeah, likewise. Happy for you. It's interesting because over the years, too, like, you interact here and there where you're like, we're doing something and we'll be like, hey, do you guys want to do.

this or you guys have always supported everything we've done down to coming on this podcast you've always supported every endeavor we've ever had any which way you could whether it was coming on a tour or just supporting by wishing us well like there's a real there's a real pure like i think it's always because we've looked up to you guys as one of those will co blueprints right and i think i had that's a compliment i had a uh a sort of one of those revelatory thoughts when we first started touring, like the very first tour that we went on. And it was sort of like a more of an idea of like, all right, we're from Phoenix, Arizona, and it's just, you know, seven, eight dudes in a van. And, you know, you meet these other

bands that are from different parts of the U.S., sometimes different parts of the world. And it blew my mind to think, like you found these like kindred spirits and could connect almost like that immediacy. Like I just thought it was so amazing and so like I don't know the last time I saw you, but it doesn't feel like it was that long ago. It's been a long time, but it doesn't feel long. You pick right back up. And it's really bizarre. You know, and that's kind of a beautiful thing.

It's really wild. You know, and I think. That's how all my friends are. we could not see each other for two years when we get back together it's like no time has passed because i don't feel we're not beholden to each other you don't owe me anything and so when you when we're in the room together there is no question of why haven't we seen each other sooner totally you guys are one of those bands man and i think it has a lot to do with your own self confidence to be yourself it's interesting the main is unique to itself

But you think about Wilco, unique to themselves. Pearl Jam, unique to themselves. They make decisions that they make. That's very unapologetic. And I think that's something that you guys had a real, it felt from the outside. You had a real conviction of like, oh, this is what we're doing.

I mean, it influenced us for sure. I appreciate it. I think we were forced, sort of. We were shoved around pretty early that it was, you know, our second record was on Warner, and then within the first five weeks or something of the release, it was like a whole different team, and they had already moved on to pushing Green Day's record, and it was like, well, we're not. It's a valuable lesson to learn early.

Yeah, it was tough, you know, because you recorded to all these meetings, and we have these big dreams and big hopes for you, and then reality sets in, and it's like. No one's coming back for you. No. So I think we had to abandon the idea of like using somebody else as a crutch or as like, I think we just got really, really hardened early. And then I think a lot of maybe our peers along the way could have misinterpreted that for like a pretentiousness or a maybe we were too self-confident.

But I think we were always just like, we loved it. We just wanted to fight for ourselves. you know and I think we didn't really do a lot of second-guessing for better or worse you know it was like we want to go record to tape and that could sound pretentious especially at the time that we did it on our fourth record and it's like what we took from that experience was so important that was like the moment that I thought that we were finally a band you know um just something you needed to do yeah and I think we've always just done those things and it's it's always, you know, it's funny because it's like, it's like haircuts. And it's like when you were young,

whatever haircut you were rocking, you were rocking. You were fully in, you know, bowl right across or whatever it was, buzz cut, whatever. And then you can look back and you can go, I fully loved that. You know, I believed in that. That was my haircut. That was my vibe. And I think it's really easy to look back and be like, that was silly. but it wasn't silly at the time. No. And I think every step of the way we've been fully, we've been fully in, you know.

Yeah. And it got you here. Isn't it funny though that the moment, one of the moments that you could perceive as, um, the worst moment of your career, you could say like to, speaking of bands,

right? Like a, the label drops you, right? They always say drops. Mm-hmm. That's not actually accurate. We've come to an,

a juncture that we no longer want to invest. Yeah. And we're parting ways. Mm-hmm. Right. So they use the word drop in a very kind of like disrespectful way I find that like just is not true to business. Businesses we're parting ways.

Mm-hmm. Right. And in relationships, we're parting ways. We don't see a future together, right? Period. Mm-hmm. But you could say one of those moments like that album comes out within five weeks. It's a new team.

And they've moved on. This is the worst moment of our career, right? Actually, probably one of the most important moments of your career. And had it not happened, you wouldn't be who you are. Thousand percent. And you wouldn't have learned the truth of life, which is no one's coming back to save you. You know what yes feels like because when you play that show in San Diego, it's a yes. You guys are met with yeses most of the time now because I think you've just become this unique thing that a bunch of people agree on.

that's awesome but it's all the years it's taken and you can feel those years in your music that's also the other question is is like what are what does this become in in when we're older like good charlotte i always wondered like what does good charlotte become and then we play this show and i and i realized like oh we became us i don't know exactly what that is how to explain good charlotte to people but we're a band we've been together since high school we love each other and when we go out there whether it's one show or 10 shows we care about it and we put on the best show we can and we love this thing more than we ever have I think we're the most protective of it now than we've ever been in our life and it's it's special I can't even tell you what the legacy of good charlotte

will be I don't even know but I know I love it and I know the band we We all, when we have these conversations about, are we going to do this? Are we going to do that? Everybody's just thinking of how it makes us feel. What do you think the next 10 years of the main looks like? I think similar to what you're saying is like I don't really know about legacy. As far as who the band is, I know that we've tried to maintain good character over the entirety of our band. guarantee that we've been the best people we could have been.

You guys are good guys. Thanks. You guys are a non-toxic band. But I just think everything else is out of our hands. You know, as long as we're still abiding by those, not rules, but just the idea that we're all in, you know, as long as we do that, we can... I don't know. We could dissipate in a couple years. I don't even know. I think we've already exceeded where we thought this thing would go. So everything else is just kind of cream right now.

What album number are you guys on? This is nine. Wow. I think you got, I think you, it's a lot of albums. I think you think that's more than us. We just fell into that. Like, it was a very cyclical thing. It was like two years. All right. Another album. two years, another album. And it's just the balance. I love, love, love making records. Like, I love being in the studio. Not to say I don't love being on the road,

but I definitely love the studio more. Yeah. There's just something about making stuff. Making things. Yeah. That just, it's addictive, you know. Yeah. So hopefully 10 years were still able to do that.

I guess that would be the, that would be like the ideal, outcome we're still able to make records people still give a hoot and we're still able to play shows what's a version of what like what are the things that could keep you guys own your own studio what what could stop you from ever making records i mean nothing because at this point i know that i'll still make music regardless of if people listen to it or not yeah um so that's amazing to know yeah as like even if i go become a cpa or something i can still make records Or, and even, yeah, like, maybe my kids will listen to them or something, you know. And maybe they'll be making records.

Yeah. Other than that, I don't know. I think, yeah, I think, like, being around bands like you guys, like, there's a video on YouTube of you guys playing rock and ring. Yeah. And it's like. I don't, like, I don't, yeah. 20,000. 10,000 people.

Crazy amount. But to see a band like y'all achieve something like that. those are the things that are embedded in our subconscious like hey these things are achievable they are and i think those are the things that will keep us hungry over the next 10 years and it's not blowing smoke it's just it's an amazing thing that you guys have been able to build and accomplish it's funny though because when you're doing it you don't think about it don't think about it you're just showing up germany was is in it was an interesting market it was really good it's a really big good Charlotte. And it's such a big place. You could tour Germany for a month and do all these

college towns you've never heard of. And we did a lot of that touring there. But then you kind of, it culminates to this moment where we've done that festival a few times. And it culminates to one of those big moments that's caught on, you know, film. And then you see it. And I still, it's definitely one of those ones we were like, at the time, I didn't even really know what we were stepping out stage too. I mean, but how could you? And also, what does that look like when you're, do you even see the back of the crowd? Yeah. And like, but when we were young was interesting, was very similar. It was like 90,000 people watching. And I'd argue one of our, in 2023, one of our biggest kind of audiences that were there knew all the words. I mean, Germany was, was that to,

So that would definitely be a show that I would put on the list of like best shows that you've ever played where you, where it was like a big audience that knew your music and were singing everywhere to all the songs. When we were young was another one of those moments where afterwards someone showed me the drone footage of the entire crowd and you could hear the entire crowd singing the songs. And we didn't know that either. We had no idea how people were going to. receive it's been five years uh we thought it'd be a good show yeah yeah obviously we were excited to

play it lots of friends there um but after the fact when you watch the tape and you go oh wow that was bigger than i thought and those are the moments that you can finally like bask in a little bit you go that was cool you can go wow that was cool good job yeah and and and you also realize like music doesn't go away when you when you've made music that people have shared in the moments of their life right you're doing that together so you're making a records for the people that are listening to it and then they're applying that record in different places in their world and you have to give that a few years especially with organic music it takes root and then a tree grows and then it becomes a different meaning like good charlotte's music today means something different

than it did you know 15 years ago but that's a good thing and he's it's evolved into something you know and i think you're you guys are another one of those bands you're making these records and a song from that record and a song from that record they take root and they find their way like art it's like It means something to see a Basquiat painting now than it did 20 years ago. And it continues to evolve in the collective consciousness of like, what does this thing mean? And I think that so you do have to like wait and see. You have to have like a wait and see approach. Do you guys manage yourselves?

Tim Kirch. So Pat's older brother, our drummer's older brother has been our manager since day one. Okay, that makes sense. So it's really almost like a silent member of the band. 100% and its family. Yeah. Who would you say is the driving force behind the, what's the word? The strategy and execution and operation, I would say with Good Charlotte, it's bench.

He just has a mind for it. He doesn't necessarily want to be out in front. I took that role on naturally. we started because he likes to be kind of next to me but he doesn't necessarily want to go out all the time and but the tip of the spear when it comes to like let's create a plan and a strategy and let's operate this thing he he tends to drive that the business um who would you say there's always usually one yeah there's always a guy that has a mind for it yeah who would you say that is i mean in the band it's definitely pat yeah it's definitely i mean he ever since i've

known him even before because I've known Tim since sixth grade yeah so Pat is two years behind in school and even since the moment I met him he was like we would be visiting vacationing in san Diego and he would go to the library to get internet so that he could look up bands and he could study bands and oh my god did you hear this new my american heart album or did you hear this whatever And that's always been him. And it's continued to be. I think him and his brother work side by side, but it's definitely Pat for our band.

You know, because Tim has other ventures. But Tim is very main-centric. Yeah, he's woven in. It makes a lot of sense to me. I always thought, I always kind of perceived that you guys managed yourselves, but that makes sense to me. I mean, essentially we do. I knew Tim was involved, but it feels like a family organization.

And I always say like there's people who, and I say this in a good way because we are, we are those kind. We're unmanageable. I cannot sit at a table and have someone manage me. Yeah. I need to be at the table with them and I need to know all the information, good or bad. And then we can collaborate a plan and then execute and then I'll go back out and be lead singer and pretend I don't know what's going on. but I need to feel like I have a seat at the table. I don't want to be managed.

And going back to that artist manager relationship, I think some artists, it's too painful or scary or it feels validating to not have to look at that or whatever it is. I don't think there's a wrong way, but I think there is a lot you can get out of understanding how something operates, even if you're not operating it.

Benj was always that guy. He wanted to know, give me the information, let's make a plan. Sure. And he wanted to feel respected in that conversation. Yeah, I mean, Tim has been essentially just a six member. Yeah, six member. And that's really what it feels like. Yeah.

And it felt like that even in our friend group back home where it was like he was pseudo-manager of like the group of friends that we had. and it's always felt natural and it felt like same reason that that uh you know we we wanted to work with mike marquee is like he's been there since day one we know that we don't have to explain things to him we don't have to explain why we don't want to do this or why we want to do this um or in those moments like give me the information you don't yeah yeah yeah like i think in the in the pop sense of the world where I've seen it. Some artists will have this big tour idea and they're like, I just want to do that. And okay, let's stop. Let's talk about the cost before. And so that we

understand like, we're going to lose money on this tour. That conversation is not actually a hard conversation, but you see sometimes where people are afraid to say the reality. And the reality helps us. Absolutely. Plan for everything. And I think that like we've always just wanted the reality of the situation so we can make a decision in relationship to reality. Based on that.

Not in relationship to a fantasy. And I think that's the difference in sometimes I see in artists sometimes. I see that from the outside perspective, right? I may not know all of the facts. So I'm open to being wrong. in some ways, but I think dealing in reality while you build a fantasy type brand is important. And again, like, it's just one of those features I think I've noticed about you guys. It feels like you have your heads on and you're grounded and you're making really smart decisions.

Thank you. I think we've just always respected you guys. Likewise. Run a good shop. Likewise. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for showing me this place.

Oh, man. Thanks for coming. I'm so stoked you're here. Likewise. Cool, man. Thank you for having me. Dude, thanks for coming. Fuck, yeah.

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