Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Josh Carter of Phantogram

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Josh Carter of Phantogram. Since their formation in the late 2000s, Phantogram have always created the music that they wanted to hear, drawing from Outkast as freely as My Bloody Valentine. Their fifth studio album, 2024’s Memory of a Day, is no different, offering up dusky psychedelia, floor-filling beats, and a potent chemistry between two longtime friends while contemplating the nature of time. In a conversation with Madden, Carter opens up about how trying too hard can be the death of the art, his special relationship with his bandmate, Sarah Barthel, and their upcoming summer tour with Deftones. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with producer, songwriter, and one half of the genre-bending duo Fantagram. Josh Carter. Let's go. I live in L.A. now. Okay, so you spend a lot of time in L.A.? Yes. But you're from New York. Yeah. Okay. So Sarah and I, my bandmate and I were from upstate New York. Okay. which is like near Saratoga Springs. Yeah. Albany area.

Yeah. So it's like three hours equidistant from Montreal and New York City. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then I lived many years in the city in Brooklyn and then moved out here like everybody else does, I guess. It's nice out here. It's pretty nice.

Yeah. It's good for art. Yep. Good for music. Yeah. It's a little easier in L.A. to navigate the creative flow of like what it means. to like be a musician and create things on any given time with any given one you like run into someone or you meet him somewhere and you're like hey we should do something you actually can

yeah that's true i meet just a lot of people and we're like let's do something and we get together the next week like normally i would never like really meet you yeah or maybe in new york you would but you don't exchange information quite the same and it's weird like for me it feels like in new york like studio environments feel like harder to come by. Yeah. Whereas in L.A., like everyone has like their own studio situation somehow. Yeah. Because there's more space maybe.

More space. Yeah. So I think L.A., Nashville, good for music. I like Nashville. I don't get to go there much just on tour. My brother Josh lives there. Oh, yeah? You want to know something interesting?

Yes. My brother and my sister, their names are Josh and Sarah. Really? Yeah. No kidding. And I was thinking today about you guys, Fantagram, Josh and Sarah. And I was like, I wonder if there's any like cosmic. Is that just a coincidence or is there some cosmic thing?

It just made me like feel very like warm to you guys. That's cool. When are they born? What's their birthday? Do you know like there's, I don't really follow. Yeah. August 23rd. August.

Okay. And November 9. 81, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just like going to pretend like I know. Star Science? Yeah, I don't know. I just know like Gemini and Aquarius because that's what Sarah and I are.

And I think of Equimini, the Outkiss. Yeah. Which you worked with? Yeah, we're in a band with Big Boy. Oh, you guys have a band? Yes. That's fucking awesome. Yeah, we're called Big Grams.

I didn't know that. Yeah. How long has that been? Ten years, I guess. Holy shit. Yeah. Dude, that's pretty cool. I love Outcast.

Yeah. I love Equimini. Same. Yeah. That was the first outcast album that I actually bought and it just, I was like, man. And it was over after that. Yeah. They were one of my favorite groups for ever and ever. Same. I mean, like, for me, it was always the Beastie Boys and Wu-Tang Clan, Public Enemy. Like, I love the Beastie Boys so much that I actually would have dreams that they're like performing. And they'd be like, yo, we need a fourth Beastie Boy up here. I'd be like, and they'd just, You actually, you look like you could fit in.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. All right. I started my whole musical journey because of the Beastie Boys. Yeah. I got, check your head. Yep. When I was like in maybe in middle school or in ninth grade or something.

Yeah. It taught me how to dress. Yeah. It's like suddenly I had a style. As soon as the Beastie Boys, as soon as I was old enough to like, my mom is pretty strict about like us getting music. She was very religious. Okay.

So like we had to kind of like find. really find music because it wasn't like there was no like tv m tv or anything in our house um were you uh like christian or like yeah i was raised in that kind of environment very religious yeah and then we discovered the beastie boys and that was it and then i went to so maybe in like eighth grade i don't know but i just remember like and i'm a few years older than you i'm 46 so okay um so i'm i'm a half a decade older than you i think but it's like coming of age at that time when you're like trying to figure out like how do I dress well how do I and I found the Beastie Boys and then that was it I was like going to thrift stores getting adidas the the braided belt

uh braided belt adidas like campuses and gazelles um beanies you know it was affordable too like we could find like a pair of khaki dickies and like a hoodie and like that was it like the beastie boys He's really helped a lot of kids dress. Yeah. I mean, they're, yeah. They're just on a whole other level for me. And, you know, I've got to meet Mike D and all that. And, you know, I was just like.

Did you get to spend any time with him? Yeah, he interviewed me. Oh, wow. She was pretty cool. Yeah. He seems cool. Yeah, it's very nice. But I'm like, I'm with a Beastie Boy.

And then I went to the ill-communications store. Oh. And they had the roots opening and John Spencer's blues explosion. Okay. Opening. Okay. And that was the next day we started our band. Nice.

In 1995. May 13th, 1995 was the show. Still have the ticket. And then the next day we were like, we're starting a band. And then we started our band. And then that was it. That's so cool. Never looked back.

Yeah. In Southern Maryland. Yeah. I saw the, you got the Orioles. Yeah. That's pretty dope. And the Dodgers. Oh, nice.

Yeah. My son's a big Dodger fan. So, like, we've spent a lot of time with the Dodgers over the last, I know, 10 or 12 years, however long he's been, like, a baseball fan. But I'm an Orioles fan at heart. Like, I cry over the Orioles. Yeah, I was raised a Mets fan. Oh, it's tough.

It's tough. Kyle Orioles tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a good year a couple years ago. And you guys got Juan Soto this year. Yeah. So that's cool. But, yeah, it's, I feel like the Mets have been in it.

now though they're like a threat now yeah they're coming back yeah it's tough to be a met's fan but you're still a met's fan born and rate yeah yeah but like i root for the dodgers now yeah because it's fun and the the problem with the meds and the dodgers is they're both national league the orioles are american league so it feels like i can have two teams right and it really like a world series between the orioles and the dodgers would be like a dream yeah for me would be i'd go to every game right would you like talk shit to your son no we would actually Both root. He roots for the Orioles too. It's just the Dodgers are like his heart. So we're both happy. Yeah. When one of the teams wins. But the Orioles, it's been tough because they've gone to the postseason now twice and like lost out right away. Yeah. But they look really good. They're just like cool young team. Lowest payroll. You know, it's like a team you root for. Sounds very Baltimore. Yeah, very working class. Yeah. Yeah. And the Dodgers are the opposite of that. Yeah. Which I also don't have a problem with.

I love it. It's like the super team. Yeah. Dodgers are like the Yankees. Yeah. But like. Yankees and Mets. Yeah.

Yeah. So I collect hats and there's only one team that I just can't wear. That's the Yankees. I couldn't wear the Yankees either. Yeah. I couldn't. I'd be able to wear the Red Sox over Yankees. Which is weird because like you're supposed to hate the Red Sox.

Yeah. But if you dislike the Yankees, I'm okay with the Red Sox too. Yeah. Like I would say the only team I could never bring myself to like wear something of is the Yankees. Yeah. They're too like white collar how I was. And then there's the whole, don't they like make them like shave and stuff, their faces? Yeah.

Yeah. They look, they all look good. They drink water and like. I just hate, I hate that like I hate dress cuts. Same. Dress cuts suck. Same. What kind of hats do you collect?

A lot of new era hats. But I've been getting into these like lower profile kind of old school. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. You have a good head for that. Thank you. That kind of hat. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. It's cool. Let's see, you can pull it off. Yeah. It's like the old, it's like the old timey hats. Yeah, like I should be chewing tobacco and like, spitting, kicking dirt.

Yeah. Honestly, I was watching Antique Roadshow yesterday, and this lady brought her late father's collection. He was a baseball player. and he was his last name was Wagner but he was a player and he was a coach not Honus Wagner but he coached

maybe or played with Babe Ruth on the Yankees team I think back in the 20s or whatever and the collection was not only his World Series medals and rings or not they didn't do rings back then they did like these medals and these type special

memento type things but then also there were like these old cardigans that they all had. Yeah. So I went down a rabbit hole on all these old like Cooperstown era hats, cardigans. Yeah. It's a whole world. That's cool. Like embroidered. Yeah. Old embroidered. Like he had a Boston, maybe a Red Sox. Yeah, Boston Red Sox. Okay. Maybe that was the team Babe Ruth was on, not the Yankees. Did he? Well, he was on the Yankees. Bay, Babe Ruth. He was on the Yankees, but I think he was on the Red Sox. At one point. Yeah. Was he really? Can you look it up. Did you see the Yogi Berra doc? No. So good. I'm gonna watch it. Yeah. I think it's on

like Netflix or something. I love that old stuff. Babe started with the Red Sox. That's right. So it was like a career. Anyways, that hat kind of reminds me of the hats I saw. I was looked down this rabbit hole on eBay like looking at like original hats and cardigans from baseball in like the 20s. Probably super expensive. Yeah. The, Real ones are really expensive. Yeah. She also had an original photograph of the team together. The whole collection of just what she brought, which she said she had like four times more.

So she has like a museum collection from her dad. Just the stuff she brought, they valued it at like $300,000. It was pretty cool. I love old shit. Yeah. I like love hunting for old shit. You go to like antique shop and stuff? Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah. Especially when you're in like on tour. Yeah. It's like a good hobby. I like records. Oh, you like old records? Yeah.

I mean, like, I make a lot of beats and stuff, so I like sampling, all that stuff. Is that how you got really started with the band, was you were making beats? No, I mean, I started. My first instrument is the drums, because, you know, I loved Mike D as well. He was my favorite Beastie. And then I started playing guitar, played a little piano. Then I got a four-track, you know, TASCAM tape machine. When was this?

My early 20s and just became obsessed with sound and texture and stuff. Then a buddy of mine was making beats and he showed me like he had like a doctor sample and stuff and like I just got really into making beats. I would make my own loops playing the drums with one of those green line six pedals. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yep. I know what those are. They're like loop type pedals.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'd like loop up the drums and play guitar and synth and stuff like that. That's kind of how I started, them writing songs. So like the early days of Fantagram, were you guys very, you guys knew exactly what you wanted to be, or was it a lot of experimentation?

Yeah, like, I had a blueprint for what we wanted, or for, I mean, it was just my solo stuff, and it was kind of like, I was experimenting a lot, which I still do. I work on thought experiments, and I do sound journals often. Oh, wow.

And I did sound journals for years. What's the sound journal? So sound journal would, be like I would record something every day, whether it's like a short song that I wrote or if I have no real inspiration, it could just be me like saying weird shit through a tape echo machine, you know, like, whatever. That's a cool concept. I never heard of that. So instead of like, you know, writing in a journal, I would make sound journals. So that's what I called them. Yeah. Wait, so you're asking what, like, oh, how we started. Yeah, I guess like the early years of a band where we could say like

the garage, you could say we're there for three years or four years or five years until we become like this working band where we're, you know, we're not in the garage anymore. We're just working. The development, I think those are like these critical years of development. Some people may be, it's weird how it works because sometimes you could say we weren't there long enough. We weren't in the garage long enough. We got the opportunity too fast. Yeah. I don't know if we were or we weren't. I don't know how I feel about that with us because I do feel like we had to kind of grow up in front of everyone the first two records. And like that can be a little uncomfortable. But I mean, did you guys, like, how long did it take for you guys to sign a, like a record deal?

Four years. We were 16 when we started. Probably signed our first deal when we were 20. Okay. And you guys were touring a lot or like playing locally? Yeah. Locally we had started, you know, out of the garage, playing wherever we could locally. and then it kind of started to spread out regionally.

And then that was like a good few years. Nice. And then when we, in 99, we got our deal, our first record deal made our first record. It came out in 2000. We got opportunities to actually like tour nationally and then worldwide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And could I say like, oh, we were ready?

Looking back, would I say we were ready musically and sonically and as a band? Yeah. I don't know if we were. You just, at that point, you're just going forward trying to. You just got to jump in. Yeah. You know. I mean, we were ready because we toured and toured and toured.

So we'd play in front of five people a night in like Tulsa, Oklahoma. And then it was like, we'd be back and there'd be 50, 500, et cetera, you know, just kept building. So, I mean, we really did things like super grassroots touring. But that's cool that you got to like stay a little like more in a. centered area. I mean, like, that whole area, you have DC and Philly. Yeah. So it's like a great area. Great live music. Great place to cut your teeth live music wise, playing with all different kinds of bands too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I guess like when I think about your band, I guess I kind of have this idea of like, like, I just feel like as a music fan. Yeah. Like, I just feel like you guys are

really cool and effortlessly you just make cool shit and it just like that's cool you're just one of those bands that just like everything you do is kind of cool and it doesn't feel like it's a calculation of some kind it feels like each project is like something you guys went away and made right it comes out it just feels like whatever you want to call it the brand or whatever the body of work is really cool and i kind of always wonder like i guess like sometimes too like you can't control role who listens to your music or who writes about it or who attaches to it. But I feel like you guys have this like really cool, effortlessly kind of stylish way of presenting your music to the world.

I'll take it. And maybe that's like, it's very kind of you said. Maybe it's like the Beastie Boys could be like, yeah, like a subconscious, like I mean, I don't know, but that's very kind of you to say. It makes sense though when you say you're a fan of the Beastie Boys and I look at your guys of stuff and I've liked all of it. It's just like, that fan's fucking cool. But we both like the Beastie Boys. So it's like

people who have the same taste in things in how they look or how they sound. Yeah, maybe there's something like that. There has to be something like that in there. But without taking away your own artistic, originality. For sure. We all come from something. Yeah.

What would you say this latest record, the one you put out last year? Memory of a day. Memory of a day. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say the like, the start difference of this moment, that record, this last tour, and your first record is? You still work the same? Yeah, yes and no. I mean, the first record was done. Like, I produced it and engineered it and everything and my parents, like barn. Oh, wow. Yeah, in upstate New York. The garage, basically. Yeah,

using like one or two really shitty microphones that I think they were SM or these SM 58s. Are you a gear head? Yes and no. I might be like a poser, I guess. You know, I have a lot of gear, but I don't necessarily know. Everything about it. Yeah. Yeah.

I would say that's most real people that are making music. Yeah. Most of the time the people that know everything about it aren't actually making anything good with it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're right. I hate to say that. You're right.

No, like, I follow people. Oh, it's time you got. And I'm not being mean. I'm just saying, like, there's something about the natural creation of, music that people agree on. You didn't choose for them to agree on it or who would agree on it. You had no idea. You made that first record in a barn with whatever you had. Yeah. And then a bunch of people agreed on it. Yeah. You know what I mean? You can't do anything to force that. Well, you can do this. You can walk around the streets with CDs and hand them out

to everybody. Did you do that? Yeah. That's fucking cool. And we're like, hey, it makes a good coaster if you know, if you don't like the music. Yeah. So, like, yeah, we didn't make anybody like us, but that's how we got our name out. Which is similar to putting it on Instagram now. Exactly, yeah. I always tell artists, like, from my perspective, it just makes something you like and put it out. You'll find out if it's good. Yeah, no, exactly.

Like, I always trust my instincts. Like, yeah. And I don't mean this, like, in an arrogant way or anything, but I trust my taste. And, like, I feel like if I make it and I like it, it's got to be. like somewhat good. Like somebody's gonna like it. Hopefully. There's an element of like as an artist

sort of masturbatory like making stuff just because you think that you're hot shit or something. But yeah, I trust my instincts a lot. And that's what we do with every record. I think that all good artists do that.

Yeah. But there's nothing arrogant about saying I like it. I like it. I liked it. Yeah. You know? Exactly.

But I also think that you guys have a brand now that's a spanned decades here and you know what you know. And especially at like our, it's funny because I don't know why, but I thought when I hit 40 I would be too old to like play rock and roll or. Yeah. I don't know why in my 20s and I was 22 or 23. I was like, I don't know how long I'm going to do this because.

Yeah. And then at my, when I hit my 40s, I was like, I actually think I'm better like all the way around. Yeah. Than I've ever been not only just playing, but like knowing how to write a song or. But I also found I care less about how it does as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm less pressed on how much everybody likes it or if it performs well

and more just kind of like listening to stuff and going, did I get that right? Do you think part of that is because you've gotten like super huge? I mean, let's face it, you've gotten super duper huge. Well, we at our moments. Yeah. Well, I think once you have those moments of like pop success, I think you see nothing's, what you think it is, there's good and bad, you experience both. It's dangerous. There's an edge you can go over, I think, and you could become like a real truly, look, I think musicians in general were all a little

bit in our head. And you could say, I wouldn't say we're self-obsessed. I'd say we're obsessed with whatever's going on in here that we need to get out. So there's like, whether it's writing the song or making the beat. The pop success thing teeters on, you get dangerously close to the going over the line of like, I think what would like be self-obsession. Everyone's looking at me. Everyone's, blah, blah, blah. And like, what I realize about life in the world is no one fucking cares.

Everyone's going. Everyone's trying to. Thinking about themselves. And they're trying to live their life. Yeah. He's fucking going to work. Yeah. Taking their kids of school.

Right. Trying to have a good time somewhere, trying to like watch a game and drink a beer or do this. And if you start to exist in a world where everything's revolving around you, you can fall off the deep end and never come back. Not to say, I've seen it happen with other people who I have. I think I saw over that edge and I wanted to come back. And it, because it's a little, I don't know, something about that level of success and whatever, the fame element, the this, to that. And I'm not saying it's bad for everyone. I can only speak from my own experience, but it scared me. And it kind of was, I don't know if it was like sustainable. Did you feel like you were kind of

close to losing your footing? I think so. Yeah. A little bit, I think. That makes sense. The results of that, though, I felt was a really great thing because that was the point where I think in like my late 20s when we had been on the ride long enough and had been like five or six years of just nonstop that stuff. We started to ask other questions. Like, what do we want out of life? Do we really, you know what I mean? And then you start to work on yourself. Yeah. And you go on that journey and you end up in some like, what I think is just like the point

of life, which is in like living in this like life you actually want to be in. And some of that's music. Yeah. So we, you know, we never broke up. We're still a band. We still do stuff. We're putting a record out. We're going to go on tour, all that.

And it's great. But none of us are all in on that defining our like personal happiness or how we feel about each other. wives, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, it's tough. I feel like I suffer from a little bit of like arrested development. You know, I'm 42.

And I'm only just now within the past couple years thinking about like the bigger picture. Like I got a dog. Yeah. You know? He's a Westie. His name's Tony. He's awesome.

But like now I'm starting to think, you know, and I bought a house and I'm just thinking about more, you know, I'm 42. I definitely should have been thinking about this kind of shit a long time ago, but I'm thinking about the bigger picture. But if music wasn't in my life, I don't know really what I do per se.

But I think about getting married, having kids and all that stuff now. I always thought like I never would really feel that way. I kind of felt that way though when I was younger. And it kind of just happened to me. I wouldn't say that I had a plan. But I would say, hmm, I think you're at the right age. Yeah.

I think it's the perfect age. Yeah. Yeah, I think that it's got to be like, almost like your band. It's got to be a perfect merit. You got to find that match. And that's a feeling. It's like, but I don't think you're late. I think any earlier you may not, you get to experience the joy of wanting something.

And then when you finally get it, how many times in life do you get to do that? Not often. I mean, I feel lucky that I do what I do. Yeah. You know. You already got to do that once with the band. Yeah. And to have success with a band is very hard.

Yeah, they say it's like you're more likely to get struck by lightning to do anything with a band. You're more likely to be an astronaut. Yeah. Shit. Think about that. One of the hardest jobs in the world. Everyone goes, oh, an astronaut. Or what did you want to be when you grew up?

Truthfully? Yeah. well you know an astronaut no um a baseball player okay yeah full circle yeah and then um and then i found music high school was very hard and i played baseball was a good baseball player but i i didn't have any support it was really hard to like go to school and work a job because i was always we were always working to help my mom and so high school was so hard because i had to work this like shitty job yeah as many hours as I could a week and then go to school because I had to do it too. And then when I found music, it was the first relief that I had. I was like 15 when I really dove into music and felt

like escape. Yeah. And then it also kind of gave us, it felt like it was possible. Like we saw it and we were like, oh, we could do that. And it was the real first time in my life where I thought I could do something like great. Yeah. It felt possible. That's awesome. I feel like it's. I feel like saved me. You know, a career in music is, everyone talks about all the rejection, but for me, it's experiencing all these firsts over and over again, like, you're aspiring to, like, do this or do that, or, you know, with each little victory, it feels like you're experiencing something you really wanted. I still feel that way. Yeah, same. It's like everything is, what would you call it, like a touchstone. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's not a lot of

in life if you think about like actually think everyone should aspire to have those kinds of moments whatever they are if it's a job you want or like a level of fitness you want or a relationship you want some people it's their art it's music it's like i want to be a rock star or i want to be an actress or i want to be um a painter or whatever it's hard in art to make it you know that yeah yeah it's hard to stay yeah right like you're sitting here at 42, the odds were that you wouldn't be. The odds were that you would have a record or two. And that's the actual odds.

Yeah. But to stay through generations is a very hard thing to do as an artist. Right, which I'm very grateful for. I'll tell you this, though, if I wasn't successful as an artist, you know, with Fanagram and all that and what would you do? I'd still be making music every day. Every day. I'm obsessed.

Like, and, you know, like what you were saying, I really found my outlet, like, what life kind of meant to me through music. I mean, before that, it was skateboarding. Do you have any, like, learning differences or anything like that? Like, are you ADD or anything like that? They tell me I am. Yeah, I think probably. Yeah. I am.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've been diagnosed with it. So, yeah. I have to take riddlin or whatever it's called. Oh, really? Adderall. Are you on Adderall?

Yeah. Okay. Not right now. Have you heard of Vibance? Yes. I'm on Vibance. Slower release. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. They put me on that finally last year. Mm-hmm. I took it for six months. It changed my life. They put me on the lowest dose. So I think the doses are anywhere from like 30 to 60 to 90. They put me on 10.

Oh. It's just a real subtle. Just a little, like, wake up and take it. take it in the morning. Yeah. And I was on it for six months. It changed my life. I was probably about 30 or 40% more productive. Nice. Yeah. Because I'm not overwhelmed. Yeah. Oh yeah. The static. You get stuck sometimes. Yeah. What I do is I set my alarm an hour early before I'm going to get up. I take my adder all. And then I can like, you know, because I don't suffer from six hours of sleep a night. Like I can embarrassingly tell you that I can sleep, probably 12 hours, like easy.

I'll bet you that there's something that has to do with your musicality and your like circadian rhythm and your brain. I'll bet you any amount of money that because you're in like a music mind state more often. Yeah, I think maybe sleep is like my other escape to like to calm my brain. It's almost like maybe it's a defense mechanism. I've always been able to relate to John Lennon when he talked about sleep a lot I think you know the song I'm I'm only sleeping

and stuff like that I just I feel like he and I would have a lot of similarities as far as that goes or like maybe it's an anxiety thing like I just like when I don't want to deal with the world I take comfort and sleep because do you have anxiety too I mean I do I struggled with it my whole life but but got it

I think I got it to a really good place about 10 years ago Yeah, which has been great. I know when my ADD is spiked and my anxiety is spiked, I've gotten pretty good at going like, whoa, I'm super anxious and I'm super distracted. I need to go and I'll like, now I've learned how to just like go do something physical. Like I need to go for a hike or go run or ride a stationary bike, whatever I can do. Yeah, yeah. Even for like 20 minutes, it usually kind of gets me out of it.

but it took me a long time to learn how to drive that thing. Yeah, yeah. I just started seeing a personal trainer, so I'm trying to get fit again and like get my... Because I know exercise makes a huge difference. Huge. I didn't start getting anxiety until later in life. You know, I wasn't an anxious kid or anything like that.

Oh, wow. Yeah. How old were you when it started showing up? Like early 30s. And I just woke up one day having a panic attack. I was like, what is this? Like, am I having a heart attack? What's going on here?

I know that. Bizarre, because I never felt anything like that. What do you think it was? I don't know. I really don't know. It could have been like, you know, heavy drinking or something. You know, how you get like anxiety or something like that. And then, you know, it just developed into something, you know.

That's actually sounds about right. Yeah. Maybe to like something about being creative and then having to commercialize it and do it as a job, it is a perfect recipe for anxiety because it's counterintuitive to be creative and then have to go out and like okay now I got to figure out how to commercialize this so I can make a living and do this all the time yeah and that's not the nature of creativity it's like just wild flame right so it's weird I think a life of that when you don't realize it a sensitive creative person you go out in the world and you have to make this a job and you're like I'm a serious musician I'm going to do this as a job

and we got to do this and then and they're telling us we got to do that and then suddenly like you're thinking about 20 different things when you sit down to create something that yeah you just want to make and it loses its purity really it's like as soon as you start trying to chase a single like write a single you're not going to write a fucking single yeah you know or when you listen to the label or whoever too much it's like they're like most of the time they don't really know what they're talking about. They're just throwing darts, whatever. And like, nobody really knows what's going to happen with anything. But I think trying too hard for something is just the death of making good art. Yeah, unless you're just trying too hard to make the art. Yeah. And that's

where all the efforts should go. But there's these balances. Yeah. When these other ideas come in and you're just trying to check all the boxes and keep everything. And you're also trying to be grateful. You're trying to, like, you know like take every opportunity and like i think start to like inflame a little bit of anxiety and then what do you do so you're on the road you don't even know you're anxious because you've never been anxious well you're going to drink yeah and then it perpetuates each other and it oh yeah drinking drinking and anxiety is the worst like to cycles yeah because you start drinking it to cool down yeah and then it causes anxiety it causes your cortisol to go up and You know, I think Andrew Huberman would have more to say about this than me.

I like Huberman. Me too. Yeah, I listen a lot. Same. I listen on all the key health stuff. Yeah. I'm like, when I listen, I'm like, okay, I'm doing this wrong, doing this wrong, doing this wrong. He's like, get up early and get in the sun and put your feet in the grass.

I'm like, I've yet to really be able to get that part of the day right, getting the early morning sunlight. Yeah. Even with six hours of sleep or five and a half. I haven't been able to get it right. But I do like have a good fitness regime now. I would say that I've learned a lot. I would definitely count him as one of my like resources for some health stuff. Yeah.

Yeah, he's great. Yeah. He's a big music fan too. I feel like I have a lot in common with him. Like he grew up skateboarding. Yeah. Like punk rock. He used to listen to bands like minor threat and bad brains and shit like that.

Rancid. Yeah. You know, like when he talks about that, you know, part of his life. I'm like, yeah, like, I knew I liked this guy, like, even more. We would all hung out in high school. Exactly. Yeah. And then Mr. Smarty Pants gets to, you know, go talk about this shit that's esoteric to me, really, but very informative. It's good. Information's good. You get to, you get to. I like to learn a lot. I like anything, like little facttoids. Yeah. I love. You know, like, I don't know why. I just love little facts. Like what, what, what,

Why do people say this? So here's an example. Bill Brass tax. Brass tax? Yeah, like, let's get it. Let's break it down to brass tax. B-R-A-S-T-A-X? Nope.

B-R-A-S-E-T-A-X? Nope, it's brass, like B-R-A-S-T-A-C-S. Because brass tax-P-A-T-S are, well, I'm not wearing a jeans. These are dickies, but you know, on jeans, you have the little, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's brass tacks, the little rivets. So when you break something down to brass tacks, you're breaking it down to all the way to the rivets.

Yeah, to the deepest part of where the fabric connects, you know? Yeah, and if the tacks weren't there, the fabric wouldn't be held together. Exactamundo. Yeah. Just little shit like that, I find really interesting. Yeah, that is actually really great. Yeah. Yeah, I always thought it was brass tacks. And what would brass tacks be? like when you always thought it was just yeah or like you got to pay the tax man like yeah it's getting down to paying the tax yeah pay the taxes yeah it's tax season yeah i like that stuff i like this like new age of in the last 10 years of like alternative information like the hubbermans of the world

where like you can get some really good nuggets of information that actually actually improve your life. Yeah. Big time. Big time. Yeah, like, for me, I've learned a lot about your gut health over the past few years, and that's... What's your regime for your gut? Microbiome.

Take, like, probiotics and stuff like that. What's probiotics do you take? I don't know, the names of them, like the pills or whatever, but, you know, eating, like, Greek yogurt and cottage cheese and kimchi and stuff like that. But, like, I think about that kind of stuff. I never, did you ever hear about that in high school? No.

No. You actually, like, I still think they're teaching very unuseful information in high school. It's one of the biggest problems I have with my kids. Education, we pay all this money. I love the school they go to. I think it's probably the best version I could find. They're more forward thinking. They have a really strong arts program, which is like what I cared about.

I just want my son who loves to make music to be able to do that. five hours a week while he's at school. Cool. And my daughter who loves to dance, I just wanted to be able to do that five hours a week. So if there was more useful stuff in school like that, like your microbiome, like personal health, what's the latest, greatest information? You'd think that would be. It's weird how there. There's got to be a school out there that's like super forward like that, but yeah, it probably is. Yeah. Do your kids have homework? Yeah. I think homework's the biggest crock of shit yeah you're at school all day you gotta go home and do homework bullshit you don't do that in real life you try not to i mean i'll be at the studio all day and then go to my home studio

and work all night but yeah but it's a video game you're playing and you just want to get to the next level that's how it feels right yeah i mean with that but like you know you don't um you don't go to the average person doesn't go to work and then crunch numbers at the end of the day or or whatever, the accountant, you know, you go home, relax, have dinner with your wife or whatever, glass of wine. Yeah. Like, I think that people will work 24-7 on shit they're excited about, and that's great. And then knowing where you should turn off and recharge, you learn that.

But, yeah, I'm probably like any parents listening, I'm saying this, like, you don't have to agree with me. I don't care about school. I just want my kids to be socially. I want them to have emotional intelligence. I want them to be socially intelligent. I want them to under. So I think it's really for that.

It's key. Yeah. I'm gonna. And like my music, my babyo can't be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian professional, has all what my cabo needs.

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bar records. Being in the world with people, you got to learn how to do it because you got to

all these different kinds of people, you're not always going to agree. Totally. That's why

they say Sesame Street was a very important show. Yeah. Because you had more

diverse people and but more real characters. Like you had Oscar the Grouch lived in a fucking garbage can

just grouchy-ass guy but you gotta deal with him you know like um he's really smart you have the cookie monster yeah you're right you know like this crazy guy

like needs cookies all the time yeah Bert and Ernie what were they doing we don't know we don't know but like they were having a good time and they were important

yeah and Big Bird Big Bird Don't forget Big Bird Yeah Snuffelufagus Snuff Luffagus Snuffaloffigus

Come on man swear to God So Becky, Sarah's sister, she passed away. But she had this story about watching Sesame Street. And she swears to God. She swore on the Bible that there was an episode where Big Bird was trying to get on a horse but couldn't really get on it and ended up getting on the horse backwards. And she heard Big Bird say, God damn it.

Like, I believe it. Yeah. It slipped through the cracks. He's like, God damn. Yeah, that's the funny thing is all the people making these kids shows are just fucking adults. Yeah. Going out on the smoke break in between shots. Right.

You know what I mean? Yeah. It was like living their fucking lives going like, God damn it. This is not getting paid enough. You know what I mean? Yeah. The corporate machine. I mean, Jim Hansen must have been awesome, though.

Yeah. I love the dark crystal. Yeah. Dark crystal. One of the greats. Labyrinth with Frank Oz. Yeah. You can't wave a stick at that.

You know he was like listening to music and tripping on acid or smoking weed or doing something. I don't know. Oh, yeah. I feel like he had to be. My bandmate Sarah, what she wanted to be when she grew up was a puppeteer. Oh, wow. Yeah. When's the tour?

and the next tour. Well, we do one-offs until, like, yeah, one-offs here and there until, what is it, August, and then we tour with the Deftones in August, and then we do our own headline dates for another, I think, like 10 shows or something, and then a little chunk of time off and running Florida, because Florida gets really pissed off if you don't get there. And often, I band kind of skip off. Florida. It's hot. Yeah. But I like to, I like playing in Florida because they, it's fun playing in cities where people are a little deprived of what they need more of. Yeah. So they get really excited.

Are you looking forward to the deaf tones? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the deaf tones. Same. So great. It's such a great tour. Yeah. I got around the fur when I was, yeah, I listened to it on the school bus. A buddy of mine had it. Yeah, I would say that was a 11th grade. Life-changing album, a critical album for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. Then White Pony. I got to do a remix for the new White Pony Black Stallion thing that they put out recently. I feel like Deftones, it's not that they didn't get their flowers or their due,

but I feel like they finally are now. I do, like, I feel like when they put those early records out, they change what was possible for bands to do on a big scale. Yeah. and like what you could have the juxtaposition of the screaming and the beautiful sounds and the heavy sounds. I just thought in the artistic way they did it. I just think like like and to not be just labeled as some like metal band because they're

they're not like they're this. I just feel like they were such an important band and I know bands love them. Like every band loves the death tone. Yeah. But culture as a whole, I do feel like they are finally getting kind of like the accolades they deserve and it's cool you guys and them on a tour together i just think that's a fucking cool tour yeah it's gonna be fun yeah like you know and deaf tones are another perfect example i think of maybe they're getting more accolades now because people are realizing how important a

band like that is because they weren't like you're saying they weren't just this heavy band they were they were heavy and some screaming and beautiful singing and then like very lush almost like shoegaze music and you can't really pinpoint exactly what they were doing or what they still do and it's always a bit different but it's like the beastie boys you know they were rapping they were doing funk jams they were doing like hardcore songs all on the same records uh bands like beck like odalay and albums he's just like doing doing his thing and using beck's amazing yeah i mean beastie boys beck they all do they all have that juxtaposition and And that was a huge influence on, you know, the fanogram sound is just seeing what can work.

I could hear that. Yeah, you know. I never thought about that. And it kind of weird, interesting, too, like born in the 90s, music that was, like, those bands coming out in the 90s, the 90s was such a wild time for creative expression and also, like, what could be big in its own. Because back then, genres were really divided and categorized and separated. So, like, you could be big in alternative rock. But a bunch of people still couldn't know who you are, and you're a huge band. You're playing, like, you know, I don't know if that exists.

It still exists a little bit today. But I feel like in the 90s, it was just, like, originality was real. Like, it was real. Yeah. It was more celebrated. It was like, yeah, it was the weird or the better. Yeah, like, you could have bands like, Again, like the Beastie Boys and Beck, and then, you know, you had Nirvana, which were fucking excellent band, obviously.

And then, but then you even had bands and the Smashing Pumpkins forget about it, like Siamese Dream. One of the greatest of all time. But then you had bands like presidents of the United States of America. I just thought of that. Like, I, that's crazy. You said that. I just thought of like, she's love. Same.

She's in my head. You had all these great little, like, or like, cake. The drummer played a, his symbol was a little splash symbol. Yeah. And it's like, what? Who does that? Or a bass player? Cake.

Not a surf. Not a surf. Love those guys. Love cake. Oh, remember, I love this band. I don't know why it's on the tip of my tongue. You remember that song, jang jant, jit-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-wit. Wait, make up your mind.

Oh, yeah. Todies. Todies. I love the toadies. Yeah. I wore that record out. Yeah, I never owned the record, but I liked that song. I wore that record out.

Yeah. It was so good. You should actually go and listen to the record. Okay. The whole record, it's good. I will. It's just like a little gem of a record. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know why. Or maybe it was just that time of my life and I could buy a record and I bought it. But I still have like affection for that record. That's awesome. The 90s was like never again, I think. I hope it goes back to it. I really think there's a lot of copycat music these days with all kinds of genres.

And, you know, there's a lot of originality out there too. But what I mean is about the celebration of weird, original shit. Different thoughts. But, you know, talking about the 90s and like our shared kind of love for those records that I think we're in our probably what we would say is our developmental years of discovery, right? like what our idea of music even is. It makes a lot of sense when I listen to Fantagram. The picture comes together for me.

It's cool. It's cool. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Because you guys have a unique, original. Yeah, it's like you exist in your own little, like, lane. I don't know if that's weird to say. It's not weird because we fit.

I mean. Like, where do you fit if you try to? Well, that's the thing is we don't fit, but we do fit. because like we can go on a tour with a band like deaf tones. Yeah, that's it. And arcade fire, you know, and muse. And, you know, we could probably tour with Run the Jewels or like there's. You could actually tour with anyone.

There's weird. Yeah. It's cool. But then also like what is the like the two of you is interesting because it feels again, like in the 90s bands were just different like local age. Remember them? They just had like. Remember the name.

Oh, dude, there was no bass player. So it was a drummer and a singer, and he had like a bass guitar pedal. Oh, cool, like an octave fuzz or something. Yeah, so like, but all the bands just had these weird, funky. And there's a two-piece band. It was a two-piece band. No kidding. What was H, you think?

I always thought like hospital. Local H? Local hospital or something. I don't know what H stands for. Helicopter pad. Pookabar? Yeah. Hotel, Hostel,

Yeah, Local H. I like them. That record was good too. I thought that record was good. I used to just devour records. Yeah. In the 90s, like... Oh, same, man.

I had so many CDs, you know, those booklets. Yeah. And I worked in a coffee shop for a while, and the owner was really cool. He'd let us play our own music. And I had two huge binders that I would bring to work. And after work, I'm carrying my... my binders.

With all the CDs? With all the CDs. Yeah, I remember those. Yeah, like, just full. I went to get a slice. I sit down, eat my pizza with my CDs, and then I go, walk to my car and drive home. I'm like, wearing my CDs.

I left them on the stoop, and, like, they got stolen. I was devastated. Your whole collection. Yeah, my whole collection. And back then, you didn't have, you know, Spotify or anything like that. So rebuilding that collection was, Yeah. Never again.

Yeah, I don't think I got to rebuild it. What are the five records you'd say, like, in the 90s you wore out? Siamese dream, ill communication, Baudelae, probably never mind. These are all 90s bands. Yeah, in the 90s, you're a kid, you have your CD binder. The five you would say you just wore the fuck out. I mean, and probably deaf tone is probably around the fur. Yeah. Those all, those are all, those all make the list for me. I would probably say it was like, I probably name like 20 that I just like even like Outcome the Wolves by Rancid. I just wore that fuck out of that record.

I had that on tape. That and a bad religion tape. Strangers in the fiction. Yeah. Yeah. Bought them on the same day. Yeah. Changed in the fiction. Outcome the wolves. I loved all the green. I loved Weezer. Pinkerton. I just played the shit out of Pinkerton. That's so good. It's so underrated. Yeah. The ones. with Matt Sharp on base, I think, are the cooler records. I saw... No disrespect to the new bass player, but... I saw Pinkerton

at the 930 Club in D.C. And I think Beck opened. Really? I think so. Maybe, no, no, no. Maybe I saw Beck on his own tour. I want to say maybe Beck was on his own tour. But I saw Weezer at the 930 Club. I saw Beck at the 930 Club,

whether it was the same show. It all bleeds together. Who else did I see there? I saw Rage Against the Machine there, the Battle of Los Angeles tour when they were only doing like, I don't know how many shows they did. What's your favorite rage album? By the way, 930 Club is awesome. 930 Club is great. Cupcakes and everything, the food. Yeah. Locally, people love it, but they also like, it's a nice place to play show. Yeah. The staff there's amazing. It's like such a great venue. We grew up going there. And my brother and sister both worked there at different times, Josh and Sarah.

Oh, but I, yeah, what's your favorite rage album? First album. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Mine's battle. Battle Los Angeles? Yeah.

A lot of people, evil empire is closed. Evil Empire. I mean, I love all their records. Yeah. I always wonder why, like, I actually don't wonder, but I do wonder, like, I wonder why they couldn't come together and make, like, one more album. I know they have it in them. They do.

What do you think? Well, I'm friends with Tom. He's a really nice guy. Very nice guy. Yeah, I've made a couple records with them, songs. I'm not like full albums. But, uh... So maybe they just don't want to.

Yeah, I think from what I gathered, it's they're just not really in the same, you know, they're all friends, but it's not like, they're not in the right place for it right now. That makes sense. Those records were so, it's like they caught something in a bottle.

Those records were so wild. Those records were just so, such a moment that if you did something that great and you look back at it if we can't do that again, why would we you know what I mean? It makes sense to me like it's an honest approach

and a respect to your own catalog to kind of go well we're not just going to do it because everyone else wants us to do it. Exactly. Yeah, sometimes you have to like just do it yeah like for real. You are catching lightning in a bottle and when it goes away, it should. You know, there are bands that made one album.

Who was it? I was listening to some band the other day that made just one album. I mean, wait, like Joy Division only made one album, right? I think only one album. What is the chat ChpT say? Maybe two. Unknown pleasures.

Joy Division? But then that was it, right? Two closer, 1980. Okay. Had four tracks. Okay, so they were making vinyl. Like an EP? Yeah, making EP's, and they have a 30 EP, three tracks, still.

So how many songs total across three? 12. Wow. 12 songs. It's like one album. That's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy to think about, like, such a...

I don't know. It's an iconic band, and then you just hear Joy Division, and you assume, like, oh, they have a catalog. Yeah. And you're like, oh, he just told us the catalog. Yeah. It's 12 songs. Exactly. There's 12 songs on our new album, I think.

Yeah, yeah. It's wild. Yeah, there are a few bands that just made one record, but it was appropriate, really. Yeah, like they wouldn't be who they are if they didn't just do it and then stop. Yeah, it's what makes it so special. It's also why I think music and why people I think want to be musicians, they go, oh, that seems so cool, right? There's aspects of your job that are just fucking amazing.

but there's also aspects of kind of being tortured by what you do. And like you can't escape it. It's like an artist who paints amazing paintings and they only do so many and then they stop. There's something about art that can't be controlled, bought, sold. There's something about that, that that's why people like it. Because you can't touch it. Like you can't make Rage Against the Machine go and make another record

just because you love those three records and you want more. Exactly. They're like, no, there is no more. That's it. Yeah. And there's something about that. That's exactly why art is art. It's all the things.

It's rebellious. It's like it's not fuck you, but it is. You know what I mean? It's not like, they're not saying fuck you because they don't like you. They're saying, no, that's it. Yeah. That's what I think is so special and magical about what we get to do ourselves, but also what we get to witness because you've been on the road for how many years.

15. Yeah. So in 15 years, you've seen it all. Yeah. And you've gotten to be around all different kinds of musicians and there's, it's just, there's so many different kinds. Yeah. And you understand that.

You're like, yeah, I guess they shouldn't make another record. That's kind of cool. You know? Yeah. Like stop, like just hanging up your hat or doing things on your own terms like Andre 3000. You know, it's like I don't have a hip-up. a hip hop record in me right now. I want to. I will.

But right now I'm going to put out like this crazy like flute record. Yeah, this shit I want to do. Yeah. And you can listen or not, I don't care. Yeah. Or did people ever, were they like, oh, I wish you guys made music like your first album or whatever. It's like, well, go

listen to our first album, you know, because we're artists and we grow. Yeah. That's not in us anymore. It's true. And in fact, We made a record that we loved. Me and my brother made this Madden Brothers record that was like, it wasn't that different. It was just a musically different than what we do.

And like it was just for us. We made it. We put it out. And then we kind of felt like we didn't want it out anymore and we took it down. Oh, really? And it doesn't exist anywhere. It was like, you can't listen to it anywhere. But we still love that record.

I don't know why. I'm like, should we put that out? We always talk about it every year. We're like, should we put that Madden Brothers record back out? It's been 10 years now. Really? And we're like, nah. You just, I'll give you a vinyl.

We have vinyl. I'd love that, yeah. I don't even know. I like the record. I love the record. We fuck, I love that record. So put it out. But yeah, I don't know.

It's weird. It was just like a special little time. We made the record. We put it out. We toured. We did one tour of it. Yeah. And then we were done.

And when we were done, we were like, oh, that was cool. We enjoyed that. We didn't want to go full. We didn't want to make another one. We just wanted to make that one. And we got to make it with, amazing musicians and it was really fun. And then we were done and we were like,

let's take it down. So we bought the record back from the label. Took it down. Yeah. And now it just doesn't exist. It's scrubbed. Yeah, it's weird. Somebody on Reddit has it.

Yeah, people have it. People like it on Reddit. I love this album. I wish it was on Spotify. I loved this album. Lots of great songs. Yeah, I mean, it's a record we cared about. I'm glad people like it.

I don't know. That's weird. But music, that's kind of how You have to think. I think you gotta like keep some of it for yourself. Yeah. Sometimes. For sure.

I made a record with my brother before I started like my ideas for Fanagram and it's really good. Like we never got signed. We barely played any shows anywhere. Like we were the best band in the garage, you know. But I keep, I talk to him ever so often. I'm like, do you want to like try to put out that record somehow? Yeah. Why not?

He just doesn't want to, you know, and then... Respect. Yeah, you got to respect it. But then I'm like, I've asked him, I'm like, John, do you mind if Fanagram covers? Well, I mean, I wrote half the song, basically, with him. That'd be cool if you guys covered a song. Yeah, I would like to. But he wasn't even, like, keen on that idea.

Really? Yeah, I don't know. Why? He's very precious. That's cool. Well, then nobody's going to hear it. I would just do it. Yeah, fuck it. Apologize later.

Test your relationship. He's in Berlin anyway. He's probably like dancing in some dungeon wearing leather. I would do it, man. I think that's a really nice thing, and he might enjoy it being out more than he thinks. I think you're right. I think you probably have to make the executive decision there

being the music expert and go, you know what, I'm going to cover it. We're going to cover it, and then we'll see how you feel. And then you might cover it, and then he might go, oh, that's not bad. And then you put it out, and I think there's some joy there to be had.

Yeah. You know, to honor that where you started. I think so. I'd like to hear it. Peaks my interest. Yeah. Well, if I put it out, you'll be the first to know for sure. My brother's a great songwriter.

I bet. He's a great artist. He's a fine hand. You know, I can't draw my way out of, you know, a paper bag. And he can, like, you can just probably look at you and sketch out something really cool. My brother is actually a prolific artist. Oh, yeah? My brother Benj.

What's his medium? Paint, mixed media. He does paint and drawing. Cool. And really, like, does cool shit. Yeah. Everybody always wants to buy his paintings and none of them are for sale. He's never sold one.

He's got some sick paintings and, like, serious people. So he's like, my brother. He just likes the, he, music is work. Yeah. And he worked with all our stuff we do, all the music business stuff we do. That's work and painting. is just for joy. Yeah.

And he makes these cool as fuck. In fact, he drew the album cover, which is probably a first for him to participate and bring that over to like the band in some way. But I was like, dude, you got to make the album cover because I have a bunch of his paintings hanging in my house. And people always are like, what the f this painting is great. Where'd you get it?

I'm like, that's bench. That's cool. It's cool. So he'll gift it to his brother. He'll give it to his friends. Yeah, he just like loves the paint. Nice. What would you say is the thing you admire the most about Sarah?

So many things, but like her sense of humor, you know, we, the two of us laugh a lot and like we've been best friends. We've known each other since we're this tall. Wow. We even dated for six years. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's cool you can continue in a relationship past a romantic experiment, right?

like maybe we should date and then you obviously aren't together yeah like it's cool you could like have a relationship past that that that says a lot about you guys for sure yeah i think it's a lot of it is because we're kind of like families we've been great friends forever right things didn't work out and we were able to just keep it together because of that but i think that's cool that you guys yeah so when you meet sarah she has a contagious laugh and she's just she's so fun and funny you know and like she thinks i'm really funny but i like as you may have even noticed that over it takes me a little bit of time to warm up to people you know um and just get comfortable but uh we we while out together a lot like she's really really funny and fun to hang

out with and she has a great fucking voice yes yes you know i sing on on a bunch of our stuff but she's, you know, been such a great bandmate to have, you know, she's super talented. Yeah. You guys are good partners. Yeah. I just think you're cool. I know the slow to warm up thing is actually, I think it's a strength. I think it gives you time to think and associate with things before you.

I'm a nervous talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, because I'm just like, fill the space. I get quiet. Yeah, I think that's a strength. My daughter's that way, and I'm always like, you're a fucking G. Because you think and think and think and think, and then you, like, join the party. Yeah. And, like, you have information on everyone before you just go and tell everybody everything.

I'm more someone to be like, hey, and just start talking. I mean, I think you're a good interviewer, and a lot of, you got to, like, especially me with being probably, Probably a more quiet guest. It's your job to like keep the ball rolling. I like it. I like a thoughtful person. And I think that also for this show, the conversations like they have to feel different. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I think, but it's so funny because I get to see behind the curtain. Obviously know your band, but I've never spent any time with you guys. So as a fan of your band, as someone who goes like, I fucking like that band. And then I meet the person. and I go, oh, I knew, I know why I like that band now, because I, because you get a sense of a person and then you, then you go back to their music and you're like, I know the music, I can feel the music more. That's one of the, my favorite things about this show is sitting with so many people. I think we're at like 120 or 30 episodes. And I just gotten to meet so many people. Some I knew. Some I didn't. It changes how I hear their music. Yeah. It's really cool. Have you ever met somebody, like not on this show per se, but somebody that you just really like,

that's why they say never meet your heroes? Yeah, yeah, I hear that. But somebody that you really had admired and they turn out to be a real, like, wet blanket, or not wet blanket, more like a shit bag even, like. Yeah, or like just disappointing. It's like a disappointing experience and maybe, like, I try to, like, give room for, like, a bad day or, um, circumstances or something. I'm trying to think not too many to be honest.

I'm pleasantly surprised when I meet really big, like, pop stars who are also, like, grounded and, like, we can sit here like this. Yeah. Because you can't always, there's different, it's weird. There's, like, definitely different people where I've been in the room and I'm like, oh, and by the way, maybe it's none of us are fucking comfortable at events. So I'm not saying events. but I'm saying like you're at someone's party and it's a private. It's like someone you know's party and like someone's there. And the pleasant surprise is you meet some really famous person and they're just like this.

Yeah. And we can all just like we can talk or we don't have to. It just feels like we're all there hanging at someone's house. And then someone comes in you're like, whoa, like the president's here. You know what I mean? Like that is weird to me. So that's kind of how I gauge how I feel. if I think someone's like a real person

versus like living in some like hall of mirrors and you know what I mean that's how I felt when I mean I've been blessed to meet more people that are awesome than I would say the same yeah but I mean I've been put in positions

where it's like oh Tomarillo wants you come over to his house and work on some music I'm like oh man I really like this is a dream come true but what what if he sucks you know right you're a little worried i feel the same way and then i meet him and he's like the nicest guy in the world and like asking me questions about i'm like i was terrified to meet leum gallagher he was cool as shit was he so cool yeah and i was like terrified to meet him sure and then i was like oh my god he's now sometimes

you see the reality of the person is they're just too real for the show And when they get on the pop show where people are all looking at them, waiting for them to say something, their reaction to it is this, is this kind of middle finger of sorts in their own way. They have an adverse reaction to it. So they say things that are maybe seen as controversial or this or that. And then you meet them and you're like, oh, you're just too real for this shit. You're just like a nice guy.

You're not really fucking around with this, but you've got to go do the song and dance so you do it. Like that's kind of how I see characters like that where I'm like, no, no, I thought he was like super nice. It was like such a nice thing because I was a huge Oasis fan. So when I met him and I was like, oh, you're cool as shit. Yeah. You said Liam, right?

Liam. Yeah. I saw a funny video of this guy. No, it was cool too. I met him too. He was cool. Yeah. It's not as cool.

A little more reserved. I think a little more reserved. Yeah. Gotcha. I saw this video of. of somebody who wrote a Oasis song just in all the lyrics were Liam's tweets

Yeah His tweets is pretty hilarious He's fucking funny man Yeah I think he's just too real man Yeah He's just saying whatever Like he's being himself

He'll just write potato Yeah All right potato I think he's just entertaining himself And also just kind of I think he's funny Yeah I think he's a funny guy

But I on this show, I get to hang out with so many different kinds of, like, of cool. And people that may be perceived one way or another way, like, I like to see what people are like. And I like to get a sense of, like, what they're like. So doing this is my version of, like, getting to meet people. Yeah. I say, hey, you want to come on the show? And if they say yes, it's like, oh, we get to meet. That's awesome. Yeah. That's really cool. If I was as charming, I would probably try to do a show like this. No, you're more charming than me, bro. No, you're going to love Sarah.

I think we'll have a good time. I thought so. You will. Well, Josh. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you, man. Awesome. Thanks for coming.

It's good to meet you, man. Yeah, you too. Yeah, you too. That's great. Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram at Artist.

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