Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Josh Katz of Badflower

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

In this episode, Joel chats with Josh Katz of Badflower about the song that propelled him out of acting like the cool, confident guy to going out on stage as himself for the first time, micro vs. macro dosing, finding your cheerleaders in life, and how emo music is a kind of meditation that helps people make sense of their own anguish and come out the other side. Katz offers a glimpse into what's in store for 2023, as Badflower prepares to release the follow-up to 2021’s sophomore album This Is How the World Ends and set out on the Asking For A Friend Tour with support from Des Rocs and Blood Red Shoes later this month. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? It's Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly from Alternative Press. On today's episode, I'm talking to Josh Katz from Badflower. Everybody Vapes. That's what you should call the podcast. It actually is one of the working titles is Everybody Vapes. Because everyone that comes on here, Vapes. Yeah. So you were on stage the other night? Yeah. Well, I haven't been sleeping.

I've been dealing with some serious insomnia. Okay. Like serious. And that was fine in my 20s, but I'm not my 20s. anymore so it's harder now for some reason you look like you're in your 20s I appreciate that thank you you do I I don't try I just pray yeah but anyway so I'm not sleeping and and before one of these shows that we did it was so bad I had to nap which is another thing I don't typically do oh I usually always nap on tour I get so tired of like that midday I can't like right before it's always like

before meet and greet or something where I'm like I just I'm gonna lay down for an hour and then I wake up an hour and a half later and everybody's waiting and it's terrible. Right. Anyways, go ahead. I can't nap because of what happened to me. So I went on stage and I was like, I think the term is dissociating. Mm-hmm. I just wasn't convinced that I was actually there doing that.

Wow. I thought I was dreaming. And I was like doing some wacky stuff on stage too. Like I pulled a stool out that I saw aside stage and I like got on it and stood on it in a really weird wonky way and everybody's looking me like, what are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. I'm asleep. It was fun.

The audience loved it. Isn't that part of the good part of your job? That I get to do anything I want? Yes. And it kind of works because that, for me, as a fan, that part, that kind of feels like your persona. Not that it's something you have to try to be. Yeah. But like doing that kind of stuff feels natural.

Like I saw you do that. I'd be like, oh yeah, he's just doing weird stuff. I think to the audience, it's normal, but to my band and crew and everybody on the, you know, on the bus. That lives with you. That's new. What's that about? I'm like, I don't know.

Don't ask me. I'm asleep. Why do you think you have insomnia? I've always had trouble sleeping, even when I was a kid. And, yeah, I don't know. I know that when the bus is moving, it's just hard. I can barely sleep into bed, let alone, like, a bus. us that's and our driver's great.

Sometimes there's a bad driver and you're like you tread that. That's tough. Yeah, it's really tough. A bad driver and you know you're driving through Chicago or something. Mm-hmm. Like looking at that map like this is going to be awful. There's no way. Yeah.

The show is going to say. Bad drivers are weird. It's like something people they'll talk about. Yeah. It can really like change a tour. Yeah. When you have a good driver, it's the difference. And it's the weirdest thing because most people couldn't relate to that.

like bad bus driver yeah but it is a real thing well that person is like that person's responsible for your lives for all of our lives yeah yeah and we take it for granted most of the time you just you get in a bus you're like oh you're the driver and it's nice for the next eight hours you know you're not like vetting the person at all you just accept your fake weird isn't it are you ever like lying in your bunk and and it's moving and for some reason it just hits you that you had this realization that somebody is driving a vehicle like 55 60 miles an hour on the freeway like sometimes Sometimes I have this like mini panic attack. I just realize it in the moment.

And I'm like, we could just, this could be the end. So more than you even could. Like every night. I can't sleep on buses because of that. I lay in the bunk and go at any moment we could like this could be it. I'm not, no seatbelt. I'm laying in this bunk. It's the weirdest concept that like that you have to wear a seatbelt.

in a car yeah but then bands get in buses and no one fucking cares it's like i guess technically you're supposed to be sitting up front where there are seatbelts because i think on buses there's actually supposed to be a seatbelt for every person i think that's really yeah and all the couches if you look there's seatbelts you can pull them out really yeah for sure there are i've never heard i've actually never researched and i probably never will what what a bus crash is like for a ban on bunk yeah I don't want. You won't be able to tour.

But that's also why I'm like second guessing the bunk belt. In fact, all the bands listening, I guarantee there's bands listening to this right now and they're like rethinking like how they tour. They opened a tab right now and they're Googling stories. Don't do it. If you're out there listening.

Don't do it. Especially if you have dreams of being in a band, don't research. Also, if you have dreams being in a band, just don't. Do you research, like, terrible things when you're, when you think about? Of course. I stay away from them.

I don't want to look. I'd rather not know. Yeah, I do. I regret it, but I do. It's kind of, it's like pretty dangerous. I'm ready. This is probably a lot of our last show. I'm going to quit after this.

Now I'm terrified. I don't want to get back in the bus. I'm glad you came on here. Yeah. It's really good that you came on here. Yeah, this is my resignation. If I put my anxiety on a scale of one to 10, I could say that in general, these days, I'm probably out of one or a two.

Yeah. You know, but when I was touring, I was probably like on a constant seven. You know what I was just talking about this last night, I'm probably at a one or two now, too. That's great. So as much as I'm complaining about, like, panicking in the bunk, it's not really bad. Right. Better than it was. It's, like, non-existent compared to how it used to be.

When did that change? Post. I mean, it was, it had progressively been getting better. There's like many different stages of it. Like before, before we put out ghost, that song was about how, like that feel. The whole album, really, our first album was about that. Yeah. And I was miserable.

I hated touring. I wanted to quit every day. But maybe you hated touring because you didn't like life? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, nothing was going to satisfy me. Like, I thought about quitting. I thought about all kinds of terrible things.

And I knew that none of it was going to. actually bring me peace because it wasn't touring that was doing it. Right. It was some other problem. But writing that song and then putting it out and having so many people connect to it and then going back out on stage with this new identity that was really open. Right. I didn't have to pretend to be like cool, confident rock star guy because I didn't feel like that.

It was an act. And then there was no more act anymore. Now it's like, however I feel it doesn't matter, these people will understand. Yeah. And that like changed my whole perspective. And then also like watching other bands, we were supporting certain bands that were having a lot of fun touring. It sounds so simple, but like watching other bands have like do it and have fun. Like it's not all work, it's not all business.

You can actually like clown around and have a good time. And then we started adopting that and that changed things too. It's harder when you're like on the up, when you're like climbing from nothing and you're trying to get people to pay attention to you. Yeah. It's such a grind. And the basic needs are hard to fill. Yeah, you're not making money. You have to drive yourself in a van, do all that.

You're not sleeping. It's hard to get to the show. It's hard to eat. It's hard to pay for the broken stuff. It's hard to everything costs and the basic needs are not being filled. Even though we joke about how anxious we feel on the bus, it is the best way to be able to get from one city to another. Oh, for sure.

And, you know, function. Yeah. And then also the relationships of everybody involved, like the relationship, the band members. You're not the only one going through that. They're also broke. Right. And, you know, like, it's tough. And the bills aren't paid at home. The bills aren't paid out on the road. Everything's just like a whole. Yeah. So when all that's happening, it's really hard. And then, yeah, like I said, that song came out. We had some success with it. And it wasn't, it really was like way less the success with the song and the fact that we were a little bit more financially

secure. It was more on an emotional level. I was going out on stage in front of people as myself for the first time. That felt really good. And then, but I still, like, I was still taking Xanax before I played. I had to. I couldn't get on stage. And that was also, I was saying, what does Xanax do? I've never actually taken X. It makes the panic attack go away.

Okay. Straight up, like. That would have helped me a lot, or back in the day. It is so helpful. It's also so dangerous. Do you get dependent on it if you take too much? Okay. If you take a little, you'll get dependent on it.

Okay. Yeah, it's quick. I don't know anything about Xanax. I'm completely on, uh, educated on it. Good. Stay that way. You know,

if you've gotten this far without it, you don't need it. But I needed it. Well, at least I thought I needed it. And then I, yeah, I would never go on stage

without taking it. Even a little bit. It was like almost placebo at a certain point because I'm pretty good about like not. But even if you just got a little your mind. I had to have something.

And I always had one of my pocket. Right. Oh, okay. Always have one of my pocket. So sometimes during a song, I'd start to feel it. I'd start like tunnel vision.

The whole thing would happen. And I would start to feel it. would turn around at a, if I don't, didn't have to sing like a vocal break and I would reach in my pocket and eat it. Right. On stage. Like this happened all the time. And then after COVID, were you self prescribing?

No, I had a doctor. Okay, okay. For a little. And then I just had. And then you started. Yeah. But I never went overboard with it. Okay.

I really didn't. Like, surely. In a way, we learn a lot about ourselves a lot faster because we're out there living in like these different situations, but then also going on. on stage and having people, you know, look at you every night and, like, clap for you and the emotional relationship you have with all that. I feel like it forces you to go through these, like, kind of analytical, therapeutic exercises all the time because you're like, how do I feel before I go on stage? I used to get so anxious, so, and I wasn't aware of it for so many years. I would always

to why am I so edgy before I go on stage? Like, why am I so angry or uncomfortable or edgy? Like, it's just a weird, it was the weirdest experience because that's not who I am. I'm not an edgy, like, guy to be around in the sense of like, I like everyone in the room to have fun. I like to be happy. I like, but then before stage, I'd get so anxious and I'd be quiet and withdrawn. on and I didn't even know that it was anxiety.

I didn't know what anxiety was until my mid-20s, late 20s, when I really realized like, oh, that's anxiety. Right. Like I had panic attacks as a kid that didn't know there were panic attacks, thought I was almost dying every single time. Same. Yeah. When I was, when I first had it, I was a teenager and I went to the doctor multiple times

saying there's something wrong with my throat. Yeah, it's closing. It keeps closing. I was on prescription. Hed for acid, like acid reflux and all these, all these things. And yeah, nobody, until somebody said, it sounds like you're having panic attacks. Not a doctor. It was a friend.

Well, yeah. And then I was like, what? What? And then it gets so much worse because then you're like, no, and now I know what it is. Oh, man, here it comes again. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it's like driving a car that like stalls out on a cliff. You know what I mean?

Like, that's how it feels like they used to feel like I had no control. Once I learned what they were, God bless anyone that was dealing with me until I was probably 26, 27, because then I realized, then I learned actually, I didn't, it's nuts to me that I went so long without knowing like what my, what anxiety was when I was having it all the time. Right. And, and then on the other side of that, it's like a little depression, a little bit, like a, you know, I was never really deeply depressed, but definitely suffered from like mild depression.

Well, they're very connected. Post anxiety. When you, when you panic all the time, that's, that was. that was what happened to me. I wasn't depressed. I just was super on edge and having to go through that. It's like a traumatic experience every night. And then as it gets worse and worse and worse,

and yeah, that'll make you depressed. Now throw in, make a record. Yeah. Get it all out right on record. Yeah, talk about it. Yeah. But then put the record out and then let the world just kind of pick it apart, dismiss it.

Yeah. Over all of it. I don't think there's a right. way to to receive art because for an artist we kind of feel like we maybe we like hate all of our our work or i don't know well i could tell somebody the right way to receive my art but that's not necessarily how they're feeling i could say you're gonna you think this is the greatest thing you've ever heard yeah and then they do and you're like if they do it's not one yeah i'm like no i hate it but you love it um well with our first one we were like it's we were lucky that we like we had

with something that was so true, at least for me, it was so true for me. There was also no bar set at the time for the first album. We had no fan base, or very, very little. And so people weren't so quick to, like, hate on stuff. Something I noticed was a very big difference between the first album and the second one. Like the second one we put out, we already had a fan base who was like expecting something. Yeah. They wanted their thing, whatever version of our band that they liked.

And if they didn't feel that fulfilled, you know, very quick to be a critic. That was weird. Yeah, that was my first time experiencing that, and it didn't feel good. I'm too sensitive for this business, too. Me too. Way too sensitive. Me too.

So what do you attribute the change in the level of anxiety you feel today versus the maybe in your early 20s? Combination of things, I think the biggest thing is I just don't have the energy for it anymore. I was going to say that about you. Like when you hit 27 or whatever age, it said, you started like figuring it out and calming down. It's probably a combination of knowing what it is and also your body just going like, we don't have time for this. Yeah. Like we don't have the energy for this. Yeah. I think that's really true. I agree. It took so much out of me to panic the way that I was all the time. It's exhausting. It's so exhausting. And now I think my brain's just like,

Think about how much time you gave to focus on that anxiety, that feeling of panic. Yeah, impending doom. When you were young, that impending doom. Whether it's whether you have the energy or you've evolved to where you're like, I'm not spending my energy on that. And you're choosing to refocus and redirect the energy that you would give to that because there is a lot of it that's controllable. But what a lot of people, I think, get into is that they can't control it and that it's hopeless and that it just comes.

But there is, you can moderate your anxiety. You can learn how to cope with it and how to modify it and moderate it. And again, like I said, there's lots of things you can go out there and read. You can listen to now. I mean, obviously now we have so many different. places to go and listen to books, talks, meditations. There's tons of apps. There's therapy apps.

People can go on and like talk to actually in an app, talk to someone. So there's a lot of resources out there for people who would otherwise have said, I can't afford therapy. Right. Because I can't go sit. Was we going and sitting with someone every week or FaceTiming with someone, it's a luxury, but there's a lot of resources now where people can go and like, work on it. Start to like drill in on it.

You don't have to spend the money on a therapist necessarily to be able to fix yourself. You can find the growth. And also sometimes even that doesn't work. Right. I think because people ask me this a lot. I mean, obviously I talk about anxiety and depression and stuff. I feel like your fans especially. Yeah.

One of the things that they connect with in your songwriting is that relationship you have with yourself and how openly you are sharing what you're going, what you're going through. is not something that everyone does. Obviously, like, you guys are one of those bands that have fans that relate to the emotional experience you're having as the storyteller. And that's part of the personality and the, like, what makes the music good is there's a not, there is like a really brutal honesty to it. That's kind of, at times it can feel dark, but it feels super honest. Yeah. Feels like that's how we all feel at the depths of who we are sometimes.

we feel that happy, that confident, but also like that wretched, that dark, that sad. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So it's an, it's, it is kind of like the real, to me, like a real true, like, rounded human experience. Yeah, I appreciate that because that's exactly what I want it to be. It's all of them. It's, you're one of the people that nail it. Oh, thank you.

You nail it. That means a lot. Which is so it just says to me, honesty. Yeah. Because we all have those depths as well as those highs. We can all feel the highest level of joy. Even if, even if someone's out there listening saying, no, I never feel joy. You certainly do at some point in some place have felt that highest level of joy because you're a human being.

Yeah. Maybe it maybe something in your life happened. But to know that you have and even if you've forgotten it, it says to me you can get back to there. Yeah. But there is like the other side of it that I relate to as well of feeling that anger, that sadness, the darkness, the wretchedness. I say that. It's a very specific word, but it does feel like that's how we look at ourselves sometimes when we're in those moments. And it feels like a hopeless, dark, worthless, you know what I mean? Well, I was going to say a couple things about that. One is when I've been in that mindset and if anybody asked me for advice,

I don't think I'm qualified to give advice, but I'll give it. I think you are. It feels like this is forever. Like when you're in whatever that state is that you're trying to get out of, it doesn't feel like it's ever going to go away. You get stuck in it. And then even you're right in saying you have all these resources, you have apps, you have these things to help you cope.

When I heard somebody say that when I was in my state, I would think, that's great. What am I going to just cope forever? Am I just going to have to like put on these apps? all the time and just like, is it going to make it like moderately better, but I'm still going to be miserable? What I found was it, when you do get better and you get past that point, it's like, it's easy. You build momentum in it.

Yeah, and then it's, and then like once you're in it, I mean, even now we're talking about anxiety and I write about it a lot, so it's easy for me to articulate. But I can't really, I almost can't relate to that feeling now that I've been out of it for so long, it feels foreign to me. It feels like I'm describing somebody else's life because it's so much different now in a way that I never thought it would be. And that's, I think that's like the most comforting thing. I wish that somebody would have told me that like not just, hey, you can like slowly get out of this and eventually you'll be able to cope and deal with it. Because that doesn't sound positive to me. Like I need to get past it. I need to like feel like it

doesn't exist. And that's how it can feel when you're out of it. There's obviously something in you that is driven because you make things, right? So you understand like you could make a song, finish it, have the joy of listening to it afterwards and go, oh, I like that. I'm happy with what I did there. It feels complete. I can put this out. Putting it out. There's a process there for like success on any level that like, I think as artists and creators, we take for granted that that's what we do all the time. Right. And I think that like, and I'm just saying this like objectively like for everyone listening.

Yeah. But a lot of people listening are not artists. They maybe wish they were. Maybe they want to be. Maybe they're trying to be. Or maybe they are on any different level. But there are people out there that just listen to music and they love music and they relate to the creative side of music.

but they haven't fully flexed their creative muscles. I do think there's some, there is a, there's a relationship with creating things and completing them and putting them out and as a model of like success that also we model, it gives us kind of more of a hope, even as pessimistic and dark as we can be as artists, it gives us some kind of hope that it's worthwhile to do.

And so I always wonder for the people don't have that. Mm-hmm. Right? They don't have that model to, like, it's kind of like going to the gym every day and you can lift a little bit more weight. That's kind of how I met the metaphor I use for people when I'm trying to like encourage someone to keep trying because like it can be, um, you could take three steps forward,

two steps back still feels terrible taking the two steps back, but you're still one step ahead of where you were. Right. Three more steps forward, one step back. That little incremental. progress is always worth it and that is kind of how it works it's not like not overnight right no i'm not saying it's overnight by the way no i know i'm just saying um whatever the process is to get there and that may be three steps forward two steps back three or it may be some kind of a leap whatever it is

once you're there it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel as like like you have to grit your teeth and like flex your muscles to maintain it anymore you get farther far enough out from it where you can look back on and you're like i can't believe that was that like plagued my license. That's where I was. And knowing that, that it can be that, like, you can get past it that far, I wish somebody had told me that that was, like, I don't even know what steps I took exactly. I can, I can maybe try to figure it out, like, oh, here's what I did.

It certainly wasn't, like, paying for a therapist. It wasn't anything specific. It was a combination of things, but. You probably just, like, kept leaning in a direction. Yeah, but once I was there, like, when I was in that state, I wish somebody had told me, like, once you're there, you're going to, like, laugh at your, like, you're going to think about how stressed out you were and how much you were panicking. It's like you're not going to relate to that guy anymore because you're going to be so far past

that. But you also, you also kind of love him. No, I do. Yeah. Because he's like, but if somebody told me that,

that would be more, it would be more inspiring to want to figure out what those steps were rather than because I thought when you're in that like impending doom state, you're like, okay, yeah, maybe I can do things to cope, but I'm always going to be flexing to just to stay alive. You never think that you're going to get so far ahead of it that you're

You're like, oh, no, like, life is good. I'm coasted. Like, it's good now. And I may, and I've said this many times, I may end up back in that state. I've been past it and back to it before. That's all right. If I, like, now that I've been here and I know what it can feel like, it just, it informs, like, it makes it so much better, so much easier. It's funny.

And I'm old and tired, and I just don't, I don't think I could even, I don't think my heart could race as fast as it used to, even if I tried. It's funny. You're not old, but you're experienced. so I think you feel you feel old coming from an old old guy you're not old but I'm a lot older than you my friend oh so all that I'm saying is I actually think there's one thing that we all need and I always talk about this and it's like one of the probably corneous things that I talk about that I really believe in is a cheerleader just like one person that keeps cheering you on I've always had it. Had my brother.

Yeah. Built in. I think that's the key to my life. My life's happiness has been like having a built-in partner who's always cheered me on. We can do it. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's go do that. All right. Let's do it. Or when you're down, it'll be okay, man. Just keep, you know, like having that. And then obviously got married to an amazing person who over 16 years now we've been together

that like that is a constant i don't think you could be with someone long term if they're not a cheerleader for you right and i absolutely think that people miss that sometimes in as a like a trait of like a partner they say like your friend someone that makes you laugh someone that loves you also someone that cheers you on constantly always and also you cheer on yeah cheerleaders i would i would agree yes good yeah i do that's great Great. Is your band your cheerleaders too? Yeah. Your support system?

Yeah, yeah. We cheerlead each other a lot, but we're also probably not the same way that you and your brother are. We're also kind of like, depending on the situation, we can be like hard on each other. People would probably like not buy it if they saw how overly supportive me and my brother are of each other. Just like, but I think we had to be. Yeah. I think it's just like coming up with nothing. Yeah.

That was all we had. we had each other. Yeah, you did impossible stuff. Yeah. Like things that you're not supposed to be able to do. Yeah. And you ever think about that? Like, I'm not supposed to be able to do what I have done.

All the time. Everyone probably did tell you you're insane. Everyone did. What you're trying to do is really dumb. Everyone did. And that's the thing. It's like, how could they care? They're so busy taking care of their own lives.

That's the other thing I try to tell artists and people in general is no, one's going to care about your dream. Yeah. And when someone does, it's gold. Yeah. But at the end of the day, everyone's trying to survive. Everyone's trying to raise their families, pay their bills, figure their own shit out. And I think that we live in a world now with social media that like we, it feels like everyone

cares because they're commenting. But dude, they're commenting when they're on a break. They're like on a cigarette break at work. or they're like on the toilet or something. And half the time they're commenting for themselves. For themselves. And they don't need. Yeah,

they're just trying to get like a little bit of like a say something that feels in, whether it's good or bad, they're saying it pointed to get like reshared or to like stand out in the echo chamber of comments. And like I always tell people like, no one cares and not in a bad way, not in a good way. Everyone is focused on themselves. Yeah, it's so true. And you have to focus on yourself.

You have to take care of yourself. But like on early days, no one understood what we were trying to do. Yeah. But when people did get, you know, when people were supportive and they did, and as you, as we went along, more people were, you, it's gold. You appreciate it. But at the end of the day, like, you know. You go through all the cycles of different phases of your career. And at each cycle, you're trying to do something new that no one cares about.

Right. No one ever cares. That's what you should call the podcast. No one cares. No one cares. Smoke your babe. No one cares. But I think that what my point is, is not to deflate people from like I get feeling

like you need everyone to care. You don't. You need to care about yourself. Yeah. You need to fuck with what you're doing. need to be the one that fucks with it. You need to believe. And that's what I always gut check is do I think this is cool? Do I like this? Do I want to do this? Then I'm doing it. Yeah. And regardless of the result, regardless of how big or small it will feel. And that's kind of what I've learned to double

down on in life period is like if I really love it. And then when you do get that support system, that cheerleader, whatever, you really do appreciate it. And those people become people you you give the same thing back to you end up right you know but how do you handle uh when you really love something and it's not received by the world and the way that you think it should be good question i used to get really disappointed because i but then i realized i was i was looking outward for a feeling that i could only give myself yeah you were looking for validation yeah in places that now you should never expect validation yeah Yeah.

Now I truly, I don't want to say I don't care because I think that's not true. I really appreciate it when people do when now these days, it's fewer and far between that I do things that are out there for people to comment on, you know? The first choice is, do I like this? My process is a little different. It's a little slower now. So now it's like, I don't need to make stuff and do. stuff all the time like I felt like I used to really need that I really did like I I felt and we had a

lot of fans and they were very vocal so it felt good yeah but on the same token it felt bad when they were like suddenly disappointed in something and you're like I didn't mean to and you'd get really upset because I'd be like man I didn't mean to upset you I was just trying to be me do you Do you ever feel like, see, this is what I struggle with too. I'm so, I was so certain about my identity at a point when I wasn't influenced because I didn't have a fan base. It was so much easier because I didn't have anybody else like telling me who I'm supposed to be. Yeah, I simply did what I liked. Yep.

And I'm still in that right now where I, I have to, I mean, I live out on a farm in the middle of nowhere and I'm actually not on the internet as much as it seems like I am. So that helps because then I'm just, it's probably why your shit is good. But when I do tap back into the real world, like right now I'm on tour and I'm like seeing people constantly. I see the effect that my band has had on people. I see these types people. And they, it's very cool, but then they have an effect on me. And now I want to please them and I forget who I am. That's okay though.

I think that's part of the process. I think that you go through it and then at the end you go home to the farm and you unpack all of it. And some of it you keep and some of it. You're like, you know what? I don't think like that. I think it's good. I think that you can't try to make sense of all of it in the moment. I think you have to just go through it.

And then you get back to your grounded place where you're like on the farm, where you create, where you live your real life. And you kind of unpack all those things. And like they all find a place. I think it makes you better for it. So I'm Anna Mena. And like my music, my hair can change with me and has to be able to be able to to continue my rhythm.

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period of per a year per I hope so

I don't feel that yet I don't feel yet but I think

you're right I think I should and I will This building is my farm.

When I come here, this is where I can like... Where's your horses? There's no horses. It's just a building in Burbank, but it feels safe. I come here and I can slow down and unpack everything and decide like what makes sense of it. But my process now, to finish what we were talking about, my process now is different than it was. Now I make a decision on what I want to do. if I like it and I just do it.

And then everything else is bonus. Anybody that like I just did that this TV show, Inc. Masters, saw that. I really like the show. I watched show with my kids. They call that got the opportunity to do the show. I loved doing the show. There was a great, it was a great, it was a great one opportunity for me to go back out and do something in the world that I felt I cared about.

like authentically was interested in. That was not music. It was completely no music conversation at all, but still a little creative because I was judging tattoos. But I really like was into doing it and enjoyed it. And I did it. And I had no idea what people would think. Obviously you think about that.

You're going to when you, at least me, when I go on TV, I'm like, what are people going to think? I mean, they could make fun. of me. I don't know. That's how I think. But I just, I really loved it. I enjoyed every second of it. I loved who I was working with. I had such a good time and, um, walked away from that experience. Uh, likely, you know, whether we do it another season or not, um, likely, you know, probably will. Um, I just love that. But that being said, I, I, I've left the kind of success of the show. The show's done well, and there's definitely, like, a fan base out there that loves the show.

And some of them like me, and some of them I don't think they like the old host, and they like the way it was. So it's expected, I guess. Camelitis. Yeah, but also, like, they got emotionally attached to people that were good at it. So, I just kind of have to, like, be, like, let me, I just kind of, like, make room for everyone to be there. and if they don't like it, cool. I can laugh with them too. And I can, you know, like, at the end of the day, it's super light because it's just

entertainment. Right. We're not saving anyone's life, you know. And that's why I think I enjoyed it so much is with music, it feels a little heavier. Yeah, it's a lot of pressure. You really are actually like, at least your band and my band have this relationship with our fans. You're giving them a certain nutrition that they didn't, that they're not getting somewhere else. Right.

There's an emotional support. You're unpacking things that they've been through as well. Yeah. And you're analyzing things that you went through in a way that is therapeutic for them to deal with it. But, you know, like when they listen to that song where you're confessing and you're opening up, you're talking about something that they've been through and they haven't been able to maybe work it out or they're in the process of working it out. or maybe they haven't been able to make sense of it and now they can. We're making sense of things that people are going through and talking about it in a way that

they can digest and that they can meditate on while they listen. It's a whole, it is absolutely like a therapeutic exercise and a service to people that need it. That's how I feel. That's how I felt with Good Charlotte. I felt we were, we had a responsibility. to share. Yeah. And it was like with each record,

more people would share with us what they'd been through. Some worse than what we've been through. Some people have been through some horrible shit. And they listen to your song and it helps them make sense of that horrible experience. That to me is the power of like emotional music. Yeah. And it's not, we all talk about it. But it's not actually given, I think by like the professional community would acknowledge music helps.

But I don't actually think that it's given like the maybe the credit it deserves to like as a part of the conversation for people's personal growth and people's, you know, mental health and all that. But I think that you, whether you have, I know you know, but our bands in particular very special very special. specifically, there's a little bit of weight with that that you carry around forever now. Yeah. Whether you meant to on that first record or not. That's absolutely true. You got the weight. It's been given to you.

And a good person never puts it down, right? Like, you, you, so there's some ownership of it that you take, which you have. I've seen you. You know, I understand where you're coming from. But, like, it also should be acknowledged. Like you're definitely carrying a weight. Some artists are not carrying that weight. Their music is party music or their music is this music.

But like you're actually carrying a weight for a group of people that are looking for that every time. Right. They're coming back to the source for that certain, you know, it's an actual like function in their life of how they like continue to make sense of and process what they've been through. Right. It's true. That's very true. Pretty cool. It's cool.

And nobody teaches you how to deal with that. No. Or talks about it. There is no course. There's no rulebook. All you can do is have conversations like this. Like, oh, you've felt this weight before. How did you handle it?

Because sometimes that weight is really felt. Yeah. Especially when you spend some time on social media and you get to actually constantly like hear from these people. Yeah. And you find some things in your DMs that are scary. It's tough. How do I handle this?

Who do I send this to? Do I respond? Is that going to make it worse? Like, what do I do? That stuff happens a lot. Yeah. It's tough. And we're qualified to write the songs and to provide this community for sure because

we have the feelings and we know how to articulate them. We're not qualified for anything beyond that, though. Yeah. I don't think I am. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah. I'm qualified to share what I've been like how. Yeah, that's it.

And I also think people are listening and you'll have fans who are listening. Certainly there are people who maybe aren't aware of your band that will get it that will hear this and I think we share a similar kind of audience in a way like in that on as far as people that are looking towards music as like emotional that they they're looking for an emotional experience when they listen to music. I think like we have similar fans like that. And I think all I can do is share my experience so that we can relate to one another and then also share the things that I've done to like continually to grow and to work through the tougher stuff. And I think that that, I mean, that's all I'm qualified to do. I'm definitely, there are definitely been times where people have reached out and shared some gnarly stuff. and all I could say is look I really think you should get professional help yeah I feel like I can't you know I can't offer you anything beyond that I actually think you should get professional help you know yeah

but my stance on it has always been I have all the questions yeah just like you I don't have a single answer I don't know there's some answers but now now is a little bit different yeah now maybe I do have some answers I don't know if I'll write about those answers because... What are you doing instead of Xanax now? Not all okay. What's that like? By the way, I've never done that either. Oh, it's the best.

Don't do it. I hear that. Yeah, that's great. I hear it's good. Well, no, actually, I'm not trying to promote drug use, but I realized that ADD was a big part of anxiety. AIDD is crazy, dude. So it wasn't, I think there's so many of these problems,

and some of them I wish that they didn't all have. names because sometimes it's just like, oh, you could just be lazy. You could just be like whatever. But there's a spectrum of stuff. Yeah. So I realized that a lot of why I was panicking was my brain was going a little bit too fast and I couldn't keep up with it. And I had ideas and I had things going on and I had worries and whatever.

And I couldn't like grab any of them. And so it's just like this perpetual. So that helps me focus and I realize I don't, I don't have nearly as much anxiety when that's sort of like, when I can narrow that, when I can, when a thought can pop up and I can go like that. Yeah. grab it and go, okay, let's focus on this for a minute. You can really direct your attention at something versus what I also think anxiety can be

misdirected energy and attention on the wrong thing. Like people who are creative have these incredible imaginations and anxiety is like, I mean, that's the fuel for anxiety is a great imagination. Sure. True. You know what I mean? True. And so if you're focusing your imagination on the wrong thing, of course it's going to be a panic

attack versus focusing it on something. Of course it's going to, you're going to write a song. Of course you're going to paint something. Of course you're going to do something creative if you can direct it. But we don't have a lot of the kind of the levers to pull to understand how to direct it. And that's why I think things like maybe, you know, for the right people, Adderall can be really. Yeah, well, that's how I knew it made sense. I've never done it.

I don't know what it feels like, but I'm ADD through the roof, though. Yeah, I was told that Adderall can cause anxiety, and that was like, why I didn't want to take it. But when I found it was the opposite, that's kind of when I'm not trying to self-diagnosed necessarily. But I was like, okay, this is kind of more of my core problem. But you do it in moderation? Yeah, I do it. I mean, again, I'm prescribed it. I don't, yeah, I'm not.

Oh, there you go. You got the- Talk to a doctor. Yeah. Talk to a doctor, kids. Talk to a doctor. Do you microdusts? Like mushrooms? Yeah.

No. Oh, wow. I used to macron. dose when I was younger. Different thing. No, I know. I know. And it's something I've been interested in doing too.

I just, I never had good experiences when I was younger. I still did it because they were like. I self-diagnosed and self-prescribed microdosing for myself. Great. Can you, can you diagnose for me too? It seems like you're qualified now. I could probably say if you've ever had anxiety, depression, anything in the world of that, I believe that microdosing is the future of that, of helping,

certainly one of the things that I think is going to help people heal. Yeah. I think it actually, I, from my experience, my brain feels different. Yeah. Well, I've heard a lot of people have this experience and, and, and I'm not stuck on it. I don't do it all the time. Right. Just did it, you know.

Well, when I did it, I mean, I used to do lots of drugs when I was, younger, but that in particular, I always had a bad experience, always had a horrible trip. But when I was over it, I was like, I have to do that again. Because I felt different. I felt different in a way that I liked. You did too much. I always felt like I leveled up in some way. Like I learned something, even if I couldn't articulate it.

There's something about it, like dreamy to it. So I fully believe that. That'll be the problem with mushrooms of psilocybin is people doing too much. Yeah. The, if it's really about the, the small dose. So when you're microdosing, are you, are you having an experience or is it so little that it's like? It's so little and subtle. Right.

It's just a mood lift. Sure. But over time, if you do it in a cycle, so let's say you do three days on, three days off, or three days on, three days off, however you work out your, you have to kind of feel it a little bit. but you also have to be responsible and like it's a little it's like 75 to 100 to 150 milligrams somewhere in there and I don't know how to measure it I don't know how to measure it either but they think of my day it was like two caps in a stem right I never did mushrooms I never was like a tripper right so I've never actually tripped but I guess I'm when I was microdosing I was tripping a little bit maybe sure well yeah I mean, it's, it's psychedelic.

So, but I felt, but I was, I was pretty focused on wanting to have the therapeutic experience of like, what is this, I've heard from this person and that person and that person that I trust that this is a game changer. And I was already kind of in a good place with, I was, I, I've, I got to a really good place with, with all the things that, the things I've done to like continually work on my personal growth and my mental health and all that. So I was already in a good place. So that might also be a factor if you already have that momentum. I would say so. I would say that's probably very important. But I was very focused on like trying to figure out like what my program is. So three days on,

three days off is where I started. And it ended up being three days on, four days off because I really actually felt like an after effect after the three days when I'd microdose. The four days after would feel really clear and great. Not to say you're not clear when it's not dramatic when you do it. If you do a true microdose, not dramatic. It's very small. But is there, I felt like I got more brain bandwidth. So who's leading the charge on this?

in the medical field. Somebody's got to be like trying. There are a bunch of different people are, you know, there's, I believe it's like Stanford or Harvard or Yale. Giving it the research that it deserves. Yeah. Finally. There's a lot of information out there on psilocybin's.

But I'll tell you, the downside, the thing that's going to be tough is if it becomes more available and legal in places, you're going to also hear about people doing too many and tripping out. And like, that's the danger of it is that's the part that's hard to to know where do we. Because alcohol is the same. Alcohol is terrible. It's poison. And you do too much and you do crazy things.

We're just used to that. The problem with our kind of information flow and the way information is weaponized is one person's going to go and do too much and trip out and do something crazy. And then everyone's going to go, oh, I can't do those. But we see drunk drivers killing people and all the bad effects of alcohol. Everyone still drinks because they're used to that. It's socially acceptable. I think cannabis is probably the safest one. Yeah.

For people who like smoke too much, they usually just stay inside and they don't. The safest people ever. But I've never used too much so I don't know what that major psychedelic trip feels like. Right. But if it feels if it, but the, the subtleness of a microdose is, it's a mood, it's really is mood altering. It lifts your mood to see the world a little bit. It shifts your, if you're having, like, let's say people wake up in the morning and they

struggle with like how they see the world. And maybe people don't even know how they, maybe, maybe most people don't even check in on that. Like, hey, how do I wake up every morning? I think most people don't check in on that. Like, how do I feel about the world when I wake up? Do I feel like it's a place full of opportunity and abundance and people who like me? Or do I look at it as a place where the sky is falling and everything's falling apart and I can't keep up and no one likes me and nothing happens good for me?

Those are perspectives that we choose. The reality is probably in the middle where things work out and some things don't. Yeah. But we choose to go down one path or the other. if we go down the path of I think the world is a good place where I make friends and people like me and there's opportunity all the time to do things I love. We will see evidence of that every day we go out. If we choose to see the world as the opposite, we'll see evidence of that. I don't think most people think they have a choice.

And that's what I think the microdosing does. it actually, you become more aware that you do have a choice. Right. And you see it clearly. And you kind of just, it's very subtle, but it's very real. Now, do you think if you or anyone was in like leaning towards the negative, the glass half, half empty kind of thing and then also microdose and realize they had a choice? Do you think somebody would be even more inclined to choose the negative? I think that's, you think it's always a positive thing or could it go wrong?

Here's what I think. I actually do think that it. It's doing something to your neuropathways. So I think that any kind of growth and healing, when it when it cut heals or when something new, when you build muscle, I actually think that all growth in us inherently evokes a positive feeling, whether we want it or not.

So I actually think that part of what it's doing is healing our brains. And so therefore, I think that it actually shifts you to the positive. Doesn't mean it relieves all stress. It doesn't mean if you're working through a problem, it's not stressful. It gives you a little bit of an edge to approach that problem with a little more positive, with a bit more of a, I think this will work out. I really do. I think that it, because I actually think that it is physically healing something.

And I think when something physically is changing, like a cut is healing or muscle is growing, whether we realize it or not, that's why I actually. exercise, any kind of healing and growth, it causes us to be more, to see the world in a more positive way inherently, whether we choose to or not. I actually have this stuff here. They're not a sponsor. I just like put this here. Oh, this is it?

No, this is actually a, this is not psilocybin. This is like a natural, the other mushrooms that have the properties of some of the properties, but that are FDA approved. I think this company, when psilocybin's become legal, they'll do proper microdusting. But this is, these drinks have some of the same kind of,

give you a similar feeling as a microdusts, supposedly. It's different for everyone. Great. Do your own research. But I like, I wanted to put, these here because I love talking about in particular, I do think that microdosing is going to

change the world. Hell yeah. And it's the one thing I tell when I, if a friend asked me, like, if a friend reaches out and says, I'm going through like depression or anxiety or whatever, one of the things I tell them is you should check out. You should microdose. You should check it out. Yeah.

I mean, you're not the first person that I've heard this from. I've been hearing it for a while. Talk to your therapist. Talk to your doctor. some would not agree. Like again, it's absolutely there's room for the argument that like people can't control how much they do or it can be dangerous for somebody. I don't know. I don't know if it can or can or I'm sure anything can be anything in not in moderation is bad.

I think most things that are generally accepted in society are probably worse than the idea of. Yeah. It's like things, things that help you with anxiety, things, whatever. unless it's straight up like behavioral therapy yeah any medication is bad i don't even support atterall at all i'm not take it i'm not like i'm not like an adderall stand that's exact for me i am not into telling people what to do right either i i hate i do not want to be drawn into any conversation where i have to tell people like what i think they should do all i can share is what i'm doing that's work for me

and it might not work for you. I'm not telling you what's the answer. But these drinks are cool. They're not the same. Yeah. Exactly, but they are very similar. Honestly, on the days, I don't microdose, a lot of times I'll take one of these,

and it feels very similar. Cool. Pretty cool. So you can take one. You can have it. Yeah, I will. Very at Air One. Oh, they're at Air One.

My favorite store. Of course. So you paid $800 for this bottle? That was $80. I'm kidding. Yeah. I love everyone. It's so expensive.

It's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. Yeah, but like, everybody dies. Stuck in the 90s. They'll die. Everyone will die. Yeah, that's, I hope. The truth.

Let's hope, like, the most powerful people who we don't want to be in power don't figure out, like, endless life. and hog it to themselves and just like because that's what will happen. Like if we figure out how to live forever, it's not just going to be like, all right, everybody live for it. Like that would...

It's not everybody's going to get to. It would destroy everything. It's going to be people with the most money. It's going to be the worst people. Yeah. And such a shame. I'd like to live forever. I don't really, but like I do.

I don't know how I feel about that. I don't want to die. 100 years is good for me. Yeah? Yeah. I think 100 years is good if everybody else I care about also lives the same amount of time. Yeah. Feel good about that.

It's either like 100 and everybody lives to 100. Or like if everyone dies in like the 80s, it's like I'll go with them or forever. My hope is that it's 100, but that science has progressed where those last 20 years are the vitality. is real to be able to still work, which I like enjoy doing. You never want to retire? You don't imagine yourself ever like not working? I feel like I'm, I feel a bit retired because I looked, I always looked at touring and promoting. Right.

As long as you're not doing that, anything else is like a side thing. Yeah, you know, I think, well, even it's, it would be dishonest to say I would never make a record again and never tour again. but to do it I don't know that we'll ever go back to what we were doing I think that was like it was an incredible experience over a decade of doing it and with guys I love

but I could never see us out for 10 months 12 months or even we were we were gone I mean 10 11 months a year we were gone all the time so I just could never imagine going back to that at my age yeah well and also with you I mean you have roots you have a young man's game you know it is but like could we go do a tour yes would be fun but yeah

so this part of my career i don't feel like i'm retired but i'm retired from yeah i don't know yeah traveling right all the time well do you ever think you'd retire retire like not going to take any new opportunity no yeah yeah i i enjoy see i don't i don't know how i feel about it yet i think i think now I will be done with everything. But I'll never, you know, you're right. I'll never stop working. You're too. I'll never stop working.

You get bored. I have to do creative stuff every day. I just don't know that I could call it working because I don't really care. I'm hoping to like make the majority of my money at a certain age and then be like, all right, I don't care about it anymore. I don't need to live a certain way. I want to live like this. And I'm actually set.

I'm good. I don't need to like be a go-getter when it comes to money. But now I can do other fulfilling. You have the base to do what you love, or explore other things you like, right? That to me is like always the goal is like continue to be able to do things that I'm interested in, that I love, and feel like I'm productive. Yeah. Like what I love about MDDN, it feels like there's a lot of stuff going on that I get to participate in. I get to add value to.

I get to, you know, what I do in particular is different than what they do. He does it. So when I get involved, I can, it feels like I can actually affect something in my way. And I'm part of a bigger team that all are effective in different ways. And it feels really like cool to be a part of like an organization. Yeah. But it's also not all hinging on me. Like I'm not the lead singer.

I'm a part of a group that's really good at what they do. and like continually evolving to get better. Everyone's always striving to be better. And I feel like I'm just a part of a team that I love. That is a different experience than maybe what I had in my music career. Right. Even though this is still kind of a chapter of my music career, because it's in music.

Yeah, but I'm not the singer. I'm not the focus. I'm like another team member who gets to be on the crew. Right. Helping, you know, be a part of a bunch of the different things. That's such a different experience and so it's such a gratifying experience. It's like a joyful, fun experience. Very cool.

What's next? You guys are. Show tonight. Yep. I'm going to show the next night. Shows. Yeah, we're riding on the bus. Yeah.

Which is new. Cool. It's fun. It's hard. But doing that, we're going to Europe for all of December. We're home right before Christmas. Oh, great. Yeah.

And then off for a little while? Finish the record? For a little. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. Finish the record. At least a single and like some potentials, some potential others to come out soon after. It's good.

It's good. It's containable. Yeah. You can actually digest that. Yeah. Good, dude. Thanks for coming on. Absolutely.

Thanks for having me. See you tonight. See you tonight.