Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Linda Perry

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Linda Perry. Perry quickly made her mark as the primary songwriter, vocalist, and guitarist for 4 Non Blondes, where she penned the international hit “What’s Up?” (which Thursday covered earlier this year). That album, 1992’s Bigger, Better, Faster, More!, spent more than a year on the Billboard 200 following its release, going platinum and racking up millions of streams. Beyond that, Perry has become a major presence behind the scenes, producing Surfbort’s Keep On Truckin’ in 2021 and working with a slew of pop stars — including Gwen Stefani, Miley Cyrus, and Ariana Grande. Stopping by the Artist Friendly studio, she joins Madden for a wide-ranging conversation about legacy, creativity, and Let It Die Here — her first solo album in 25 years. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Director/Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman ------- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Good Charlotte. Good Charlotte is a band I started when I was 16 with my brother, and it is the reason I'm sitting here today. Thank you, Good Charlotte. We're going on tour. June 20th, San Diego County Fair, Delmar, California. And July 25th through August 30th, Good Charlotte and Avenged Sevenfold touring in the U.S. Starting July 25th, Thunder Ridge Nature Arena in Ridgedale, Missouri, and ending at BMO Stadium in Los Angeles, California on August 30th. If you are in the UK or Europe, we're coming to you this

November. November 8th, we are in Stockholm, Sweden. November 11th, we're in Munich, Germany. November 13th, we're in Brussels, Belgium. November 14th, Dusseldorf, Germany. In November 16th, we're in Amsterdam. November 17th, Paris, France. November 19th, London, UK. November 20th, Manchester, UK. Tickets are on sale now. We will see you at the show. You know, I'm hard in the studio because when I see potential in somebody, I want them to know about it. I want them to bring it out. You know, I want to help them bring it out.

But what I do is I got your clothes on. I got her clothes on. I got their clothes on. I'm fucking loaded up with clothes. I'm drowning. I'm suffocating. And underneath it all, I forgot what I was wearing. Hmm.

I don't want to have bad. How you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Can I say? Go for it. You always have the best hats. I'm a hat guy.

Yeah. You know that. No, you're a trucker hat, baseball hat guy. I am. I am a hat person. This is a hat. I do have real hats. I wear them when I dress up.

Right. The hats are funny for me because when I was a kid, I used to run around with a big sombrero. And then, you know, like when you're five years old You have like a sombril like this big. And I loved it. And they would just fall over my face. And I would wrap things around my head.

I tried to go to school with towels wrapped around my head because I love that Carmen Miranda look. You know, it's my mom's Brazilian. And I was raised on, you know, a lot of Bosanova. She loved Carmen Miranda because she met her at one point. But I just loved wrapping things around my head. So if it was a hat, something. And then cut to years later, I was walking.

somewhere out of nowhere this woman stopped she's like do you know why you wear hats I'm a total stranger and I'm like no why she's like because you're an empath you're always taking in you take in energy and you wear hats for protection and I'm like that's so interesting because I actually almost believed that I was like okay I actually believe that I could see that being a thing I believe that yeah I could totally see because I am I'm very sensitive to people's energy. And so when she said that, it's like, you know, because I just don't, you know, I guess I have a hard time believing somebody can come out of the blue and tell me that. But then at the same time, I do believe it. You have to be very careful because I don't want anyone listening to think

that you should just believe anything anyone tells you when they walk up to you on the street. But you should also believe what anyone tells you when they walk up to you on the street, like a grain of salt kind of way, but also in like a possible angels kind of way. Oh yeah, no, totally. Also, like, what if life has its own way of telling us things it wants us to believe and things it wants us to not believe and like it all kind of matters. So it's like the message isn't always the message like when you get it from certain places. But the impath thing, I believe because I think artists are their empaths and there's levels to it, right? however much you want to let yourself be an empath as a creative person who's making things to help people heal, to help people feel better to help people work things out, to help people understand

life and what we're going through here in this life. But I do think that the empath thing is real. I think you are too. I've always thought that you were very... Well, the reason for me why I would judge it a little bit is because she also seemed like a fan. Yeah. You know? And so, So like anybody who knew me would already know that, you know, like that I am. Because one of the conversations I have the most about is like people are always asking me about my production style and how I work with people. And it's very about, you know, if Joel's coming in to work with me, we're going to talk for a little bit like this without the microphones in front of us.

And I'm going to ask you about what's going on with you. You're going to tell me a bunch of bullshit. and then I'm going to start reading through you and get down to a deeper place. Because, you know, for me to write music, I don't have an, I don't like just surface stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like to go deep. That's just how I am. I'm a songwriter.

So I get into people's space and I'm putting on your hat, your vest, I put your clothes on. And I'm like, it's not about me writing a song about what's going to be great for me. It's about how am I going to identify a great song for you. So anyways, I talk about that a lot. So that was the only reason it seemed a little random, but I 100% agree that the universe gives us signs all that. My whole life is built on one gut feeling. You know, I'm constantly following this frequency that's constantly pulsing in my life.

And sometimes if I open up the frequency, you know, and magnify it, I get in there and I see the signs of what I need to do. And that's how I navigate through life. It's constantly by receiving these incredible gifts. The universe constantly gives. But sometimes we just don't see it. Sometimes we don't want to see it because sometimes the universe brings us bad gifts too. But those gifts are important for our journey.

So I just try to open up and receive everything as much as possible. But I love what you said because it is all true. And especially being creative and our job is to express, we have to keep those channels open to be our best self and to be believable and authentic and organic. And hence why music sucks right now is because people are not being organic and they're thinking. They're being strategic. Everything's strategic. And I get it. I get that's what the world we're in, you know.

but it's like that element of people going on a gut feeling and expressing what actually comes from the heart or from sometimes how many songs have you written that you have no idea what it's about till later to later you hear and you go oh that's what I'm talking about exactly because sometimes these songs come to us and we're like I don't know what this is and then all of a sudden it's like oh shit of course why didn't I see that or it was for somebody else or whatever I don't know I'm sorry didn't mean to go into this. No. Just asked you how you're doing and, you know, what is Westlake?

I knew we would have a talk like this. What's the point of small talk anyways, you know? I can't go out. I just want to talk. Because I can't do small talk. You know how people just try to get into these conversations with you in a really loud place? I'm like going, I don't hear you, man. I'm not hearing is bad.

So it's twice as bad for me. You know, you're blurred to me, and plus you're drunk. So I'm not going to get involved in a heavy conversation. But to your point, as far as, you know, the thing that jumps out to me the most is remaining open. You know, I think that right now we're in a world and a time where we need to go back to what I'm saying earlier, where we have to open ourselves up a little bit more to get a little deeper. I'm not saying we have to go, you know, and be, you know, Joni Mitchell. I'm just saying we do need to kind of open it up a little bit and start looking at things a little differently because we need a little bit more depth in life and in art, in poetry.

And, you know, I don't want to see the same movies being recycled. You know, I think that creativity is hitting a weird space because people are not open to risk, you know, because everybody's worried about their jobs. every kid out there on social media is worried about saying the wrong thing and losing, you know, their followers or being, you know, like, I don't know what's the word, being canceled or, you know, how am I going to get more followers? How am I going to do this? We're in such a weird place to be creative because you would think it would give us the most open opportunity, but it's actually closing us up because it's making us have more

we're rigid, you know, creative is like being funneled into this, okay, this is the space I can live in. Like somebody said something to me about, you can't release demos because it won't be caught onto the algorithms on the DSPs. And I'm like, well, you can't call it a demo. I'm like, but it's a demo. Yeah. So what the fuck am I going to call it? You know, well, you can't call it a demo because it won't recognize, but I'm not trying to get it on the DSPs. I just, I don't could give a fuck about that. I'm just trying to show that this art. has a body of work and this is where it came from, the acoustic version of it. And then I'll release the big production later.

But I want people to hear where songs come from. They don't come blaring out of your butthole like that, you know. They come. Perfectly mixed. You know, they come out with like, hey, you know, here's an idea. So I'm trying to utilize that. You know, I know I just jumped into a whole other area, but it's all the same thing. You know, but anyways, did we have any questions?

Like, what are we just going to hang out? I mean, you know, that's kind of what this is. The main kind of. I'm good with that. I can chatter all day. I knew we would have a great talk. And, you know, the way that we do this show, I think for people listening, I want people to feel inspired to go into their own life and go upwards and try and do special things because I think it makes the world a better place.

So when we get to know each other better, And we get a sense of people, it kind of feels like it's achievable for us too. No, and I understand that that's what the whole social media is for is for people to, you know, say, hey, this is who I am. And, you know, but when it's real, you grab onto it, you know, and when it's not, you know, huh? The real is hard to do, though. Yeah, exactly, because people edit themselves constantly. Filters.

You know, and I think it's kind of, you know, hard. in, you know, like a long time ago, long time ago. In the 90s, we'd run around in flyer. And as we're fliring, we would talk to people and people would get to know our personalities just being out on the street. And then it would make them want to come see our show. And then the personality that you're displaying on stage,

it's real, raw, you know, emotional and fun. Then you're, you know, engaging more people. And then there's more people at your show and blah, blah, blah, blah. so on, so on. So we're missing a big part of that piece now, you know, in the music is because now you're having to go on to social media and think about, okay, how am I going to engage? If I tell a story about, you know, this, is that going to do it? Okay, that didn't work. Okay, I'm just going to, you know, I did a test actually the past couple of weeks because I'm terrible on social media,

but somehow I've gotten better on it because I had that big TikTok explosion, you know, with the bees in the trap and what's up. It was like a huge trend, right? Yeah. So, and what was great about that is I had reunited foreign non-blonz already, you know, and so I was like, hey, you know, we got an offer to play bottle rock. Do you guys want to? And every year I get asked to reunite for non-blondes.

And I'm like, no. But how did you do it? I just called them up, you know? So, well, first of all, I came out. Now, you know, at my studio, I have this, my lawn, my front yard, and it's where I always go and I manifest, you know, so I stood out there and, hey, universe, I'm ready to receive whatever it is that you want to give. And then I said to the universe, and I'm open to reuniting foreign en blooms. Kid you not. A week later, my manager calls me and he's like, so, I got some interesting offers.

And I'm like, yeah, and I'm like, go ahead. I already knew. And he's like, well, I just got to call Bottle Rock. They want a four non-blondes and to play. And I'm like, started laughing. And I go, you know, I just put that out into the universe last week. And so funny, it showed up so fast. And so anyway, so I called up the band and I said, hey, you know, we don't talk at all. And I said, listen, there's an opportunity for us to play. I'm not approving yet. I'm not saying yes. I'd like to come out to say. San Francisco, like to meet you guys at a rehearsal place. Let's just see how it feels.

If it feels weird and awkward, done deal, no big deal. Moving on. And I see you guys. And they were all like, okay. And so I go out there and it was weird and it was awkward. And I gave it another day and they came the next day. And the next day I just changed my perspective. I was just like, I'm putting too much on making this something.

Yeah, or even like how it feels. Yeah, it's like, whatever. You know, it's like, let's just jam. So the next day I said, you know what? I just want to jam. Let's just see, you know, let's play some stuff. Let's stick around, whatever. And we did that and we instantly just fell right back into place.

We were a great band together. Great, Krista, the bass player and Don, the drummer, and Roger, phenomenal players. And so then I was like, okay, do you guys want to do this? this bottle rock show and they're like, yeah. And I said, just to let you know, once we say yes to bottle rock, all the other offers are going to come. So I'm just laying you know in advance that I have to control everything. This is not a democracy.

This is not raise your hand, you know. Yeah. And I'm in control. So first of all, it's an awkward thing to get together with people you haven't seen in 20 years, no matter what their relationship was. It's just time. It's just, it's always going to be awkward. So it's going to take a little bit of practice to like be together with anyone,

regardless, let alone a band that you have like a history with and probably like some unresolved stuff or whatever, like all bands, right? So that I would say was huge that you guys could just get in a room and stand the awkwardness and the uncomfortable, like most people can't do it. They run away from the pain of discomfort of being in the presence of someone that there's something unresolved or something hasn't been like unpacked and sorted out. I think that's incredible that you guys did that. And then the fact that you could say what like, this is how this has got a worker.

You know what I mean? You're like basically you gave them terms of a relationship, which most people also don't do. They don't like work it out together. Like I think a successful relationship, actually heard this somewhere and so it's not mine. But a successful relationship is just a set of sustainable agreements that everyone agrees on that they can sustain.

And so if you can't sustain it, you shouldn't be in that relationship because it won't be successful. And what's the point? Right. Time is the only thing we have that we can't buy more of, right? it's incredible that you got there. I'm just saying it as you go. So continue.

Well, I'm just so you know, I'm very comfortable in discomfort. So like I'm really good in that space. In fact, I thrive in discomfort. That's great. And laying down rules, I just have to,

you know, because that's just the way it's going to be. I'm not going to all of a sudden rejoin this band so it could be all the same bullshit it as it was before, you know, it's just not going to happen. Why did it on the first go around, right? And this hugely successful, you know, you're living the dream.

You're in a band. You become a rock star. And everyone, you know, obviously, anyone who hasn't done that, I'm not saying it is the dream. I'm saying that's what you think it is when you're going for it. Why did you shut it down? It wasn't shutting it down, per se, because I didn't really mean to do it. So basically for me, I was not prepared.

for the level of like people trying to, I mean, everybody want to interview me. I wasn't one of those lead singers that felt like I needed all the attention. Right. And nobody ever wanted to interview anybody else. So this pressure of me constantly, always having to speak for the band, felt weird to me. You know, and then there would be some situations that would happen within the band where totally understood this, a jealousy kind of thing. Why are she getting all the attention?

You know, we're equally, you know, a part of this band, blah, blah, blah. Which then turned into me getting resentful. Right. Going, well, fuck you. I'm not asking to do this. You go do the interviews, you know. And if you want to be, you know, looked at as a songwriter, then you stay up till two or three.

in the morning and get up and write those songs. I have no problem. You can come knock on my door anytime. I'll probably be up and I'll probably be writing a song. It's just what I do. So if you want to take on that responsibility, I'm totally open. Yeah. Also, like, go come up with the great ideas for the song.

Go. There is something about a creative driver. Yeah. So that those were the kind of things. And then honestly, I was just like, that was my first. band, you know, when I was before For Nond Blonde, I was already making my way up as just acoustic. You know, I was showing up. I played, opened up for DeBore I L, Bob Mole. I opened up for X. I was starting, you know, my own little thing as this girl that show up with her acoustic

guitar. Where was this at? In San Francisco. Okay, in San Francisco. So, um, is that where you're from, born and raised? No, I was born in Boston, raised in San Diego, and spent time in San Francisco. Moved up there when you got like... I'd like around 20. Okay, cool. So right, you know, I moved to San Francisco around 20 or 21. Cool. And then I moved from Boston to San Diego when I was one years old. Oh, wow. So you were in San Diego a long time. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So I was there. So, you know, I was doing pretty well as the singer-songwriter, weirdo girl that, you know, had dreads and was kind of kooky. And then it was the band that showed up.

Anyway, so the point is I was having this moment on my own and then shifted over to this band because I thought, you know, this could be fun, you know, and I didn't bring any of my songs into the band. I played their songs and their songs were like country punk, you know. It had like a, it was dumb and fun, you know. And then until I started realizing, you know, maybe I could. could maybe I can marry the two. So I married the two,

brought my songs in and started writing more, and then all of a sudden, that's when things started taking off. So when we started making the second record... Right, you write fucking amazing song, you know. But when we're... So all this stuff is happening, we blow up. It's huge. Everything's where, you know, one hit.

I get it. Whatever. Big song. Fucking huge song. Big song for anybody, you know? Yeah. Give me that song. You know?

And, um... I was like starting to find a different part of me, you know, because I'm inspired by so much, you know. And so when we started working on the next record, I just, I was like dark. I was dark. I was getting depressed and I was very confused about, you know, where am I going with this? Because, you know, I'm thinking I'm on the wrong path. I don't think I'm supposed to be here, you know. I was supposed to stay on the other path that was going to be, you know, either way.

I would have gotten to where I was going to go, it just would have looked different. Linda solo, Linda with band for non-blancs, you know? So there's no, I don't care. I'm not resentful. I'm not, you know, like, oh, I, you know what I mean? I don't have that at all.

I don't feel that. So when we started making the second record, I was like in like Tom Waits, you know, Pink Floyd, ELO. That's where I'm at, you know. I'm like, oh, okay, I can explore all these other pieces. about me. And the band I would write these songs and they'd be like, uh, that doesn't sound like a foreign-on-blonde song. And I'm like, you're right. It doesn't, you know. And then,

then I would bring in another one. That doesn't sound. That doesn't sound. That doesn't sound. And then it was like, okay, let me go write a song that does sound. You know, and then play it to them. That sounds more like four non-blondes. And I'd be like looking at them going, are you fucking kidding me. I just gave you gold over here. You know, it's like, what are you talking about? And so then Krista said to me, oh, this was a big thing. This is actually a great story. This is huge. So I'm sitting with my best friend. I'm sitting with Krista, the bass player, and I'm telling my manager, all separately, different stories, different times, same story. I want to play Carnegie Hall. I want to play Carnegie Hall. I want to look into the audience and I want to see people in suits and

fancy dresses and jewels sitting down watching me because I have an orchestra behind me and a big band and I'm singing songs that really means something and they're open and they're airy and their space, you know, and it's powerful. And I'm just standing there, you know, and everybody's like, you know, and my best friend, Aubin is the only one that's getting it, you know. And so then my manager calls me a week later a week later i have a week thing seven days this guy's going to call you just know it is who it is when they say it and i'm like okay and so this english person hello linda you know and i knew exactly who it was already so it's roger daltry for you kids that don't know from the who and if you don't know that basically who started punk rock okay stop listening if you don't know that

No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Talking kids. Look it up. Google. Catching P.T. And so then, you know, I'm like, hello? And he's like, this is Roger Daltrey. I'm like, I know. And he's like, it's my 50th birthday.

And I want you to come out here. And I'm playing Carnegie Hall. And Bob Asrin is going to produce it. One of my favorite producers. And Michael Kamen's conducting the orchestra. You know, I'm doing such a bad job. his voice. And I'd like for you to come out and I don't know if you know my music, but I'd like for you to come out and sing Acid Queen and Dr. Jimmy. And I'm like going, and I'm like going,

he's like, can you do that? I'm like, yes. Just tell me when I'll be there. Anyways, I show up and there's fucking Pete Townsend, John Etwistle, Michael came in Bob Ezrin, the whole orchestra. And I just started crying. Crazy. Crying. And he walks over to me. mean, he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I am so okay. I'm beyond so okay, right? So that was like this moment that happened, you know, and Bob Ezrin after the show comes up to me, you know, and he's like, you are incredible. And then one of my favorite directors, Terry Gillian, comes in and Terry Gillian did Brazil and time travelers and a bunch of other great things, but incredible director. And he comes up to me, he's like, who taught you to be like that? And I'm like, to be like,

He's like, the way you're dressed, the way you're dancing around on the stage, he's like, you're like a character at one of my movies. And I'm like, it's just how I've always been, you know, and I got my big boots on. You know, I got a hat on and whatever. I look like Oliver Twist. Well, you look like you. Yeah. But I go home with my buddy and I'm like, and I had my dress. I'm like, shave off my hair.

And he was like, what? I'm like, shave it off. And so I shaved my hair off. And he's like, are you sure? I'm like, shave it. fucking off. I'm starting a new thing. And then I go back in to talk to the band. We had some shows. And then I go talk to them. And I say, listen, I'm unhappy. I'm suicidal. I'm depressed. I'm really unhappy. And something just happened to me that validated what I need to do and I need to go.

And they were like, and I feel actually emotional saying that because I remember. I feel emotional. I remember their faces, you know. And the stupid. songs I did write, they were actually really good. And I knew they were. And the record company was so excited. Tom Wally was listening. They had picked their singles, everything. But I just knew it wasn't where I was supposed to be. So that's why I left, because it wasn't anything in particular that anybody did. It was, I just knew. And everybody thought I was crazy for doing that. Like, are you kidding me? Like, you guys are one of the biggest bands? This record is amazing and it's going to have so much success.

And I said, it's not worth it to me. If I'm unhappy, I am not going to be happy playing these songs. You wrote them. I know, I've wrote them for you guys. Who taught you to express yourself like that? Who, like, was the example, and maybe there is one, I don't know, but like who, I have a lot to say. I see it in your eyes and you're thinking right now. You're thinking the whole time.

I don't want to forget what it came to me when you started the story. It came to me. I understand. And so I want to say that. So I don't want to forget that. But I want to know. Reach out of that file. I want to know where you got the thing that so many of us, we don't have it.

The ability to express ourselves. Now, me, I had to get there and I'm still not great at it, but I can do it when I, maybe when I write a song. Maybe. but then I sit in a room and I can't express what I think or how I feel in a moment that pertains to me. And then I might find myself on a whole other path getting led down a whole road because I didn't say, no, no, I don't feel actually like this is nothing. Like there's a way to do it without saying fuck you to someone.

You say, eh, this isn't the fit for me. This isn't right for me. At this time, it's not right for me. Whatever it is, you can say no to people. say what you did was in a moment where everybody wants more. Everybody wants to the biggest record, one of the biggest records of the time. Everyone wants another one. They're all dying for another one. They're waiting for the next hit. The next, let's keep the fuel going. Let's keep the coal in the train. Let's keep the thing. And you go, I'm not happy. I feel suicidal. I feel like, I just want to know

like, who nurtured that part of you if anyone did? Or was it a, or was it a, or was, Was it a reaction to maybe not being able to at some point in your life? Those are the. So to answer that, and here's going to be a little promotion, I have a documentary coming out called Let It Die Here. When my solo album comes out, May 8th. But the record and the documentary are kind of connected. They're very connected.

Right. So in that documentary, it'll answer this question. So let's leave it. No, no, I want to answer a little beyond though. Okay. I am a survivor. When you're a survivor, you have nothing to lose because I could care less if I die tomorrow. You understand?

Like I live, like if somebody broke into my house, I would go, kill me. I don't give a shit. Go for it. Because I don't live in that space of like fear of, I mean, I love life. I love life. Let me try to explain it a little differently. But when you're raised a survivor, my. mom was mean. She was a mean Brazilian woman that was very opinionated. So I loved her. I love her still.

She was one of my biggest influences. But that woman was mean. And I remember the story my dad and don't be shocked when you hear this price. But in the 70s, gas was 47 cents. Gidgy fucking not. It was 47 cents. And so my dad asked, and then self-service, like the full service was there and it didn't cost extra to go in full service. So my dad pulls into full service, says, give me a dollar. That's, you know, two gallons, you know, because we were poor.

So the guy puts in $1.25. He comes back to my dad. Okay, that'll be $1.25. and my mom just whipped around and looked at my dad. And it's like, no, you asked him to put a dollar in. That 25 cents is going to come out of his pocket. You didn't ask for that. And my dad was like, Maria, you know, just whatever.

And my mom's got this very heavy accent. She gets out of the car. She goes right to the guy. And she's like, you owe my husband, you know, 75, you know, at 25, you know, and he's looking at her like, but ma'am put a $1.25. she's like, you put $1.25. He asked for a dollar. And I'm going to stay here until you give me the $25 back or I'm going to go to your manager, you know.

And that guy got so afraid of my mom, gave the $0.25. Got in car. My mom threw the fucking quarter at my dad and said, Alfred, you need to fucking learn how to, you know, take care of yourself and stand up for yourself. And my mom is an immigrant. You know, she came here, you know, not she got married. She got her visa and everything. but she barely knew English. And my dad was an engineer.

He worked for, you know, Macintosh back in the day. It was called General Dynamics back then. But, you know, my dad was making missiles and computer chips and stuff like this. He was a very smart man, but he had no backbone whatsoever. He was very passive-aggressive. So that dynamic, I think, is what I grabbed onto. I can either be that loser, you know, that's an alcoholic, or I can be the woman that's standing up and surviving and strong,

but hopefully I don't become the abuser, you know? And I had to choose very quick in my life, which person. So if my mom threatened to leave, which she always did, I always ran upstairs, packed a little bag, and sat by the front door because I would rather be with my abuser than the guy that is a wimp. Were you close with your dad? No.

No, I wasn't. Right. Because my dad was like one of those. My dad was from Portugal, but he was raised a white male that believed that women were, you know, deserved to be just in the kitchen, you know, making dinner pregnant, you know, barefoot and pregnant. You know, they shouldn't vote. They shouldn't have credit card. My dad was that guy. And, you know, we're Americans and, you know, you got to have American names and, you know, all this.

and my dad was very pro-America because I think that's the way he was raised because his family was in Boston. There's a big Portuguese community in Boston. And so when everybody migrated to Boston, it was immediate, it's uncool to be an immigrant. Right. So we got to be Americans. Right. You know, so I think his father raised him to be that way.

So to answer your question, it was basically I was beaten. into being outspoken. And that was the only way I was going to survive because I had to start fighting her. And I only could fight my mom with words. Right. I can't hit my mom. So I had to stand up to her in a way that nobody else was. My other members of my brothers and sisters were not. And I was the youngest. I would watch my mom fight with my dad constantly. And it just taught me like, okay, I'm going to have to be a fighter in this world because I'm definitely not going to get anywhere just walking away. So I would put myself in the situation constantly. And, you know, I'm aggressive. I am. I'm an aggressive Brazilian woman and that, and I'm also in fucking Ares,

you know, and that's like, you know, you can't get any more agro than that. Yeah, I think you're, I think you're very much when you've arrived to see. something you've arrived to it and you get, I think you're likely once you know, you know, and you can't unsee it once you know. And then you can't stop thinking about what you saw. That's where you want to go and everything else is noise. There's like something also about a mean or critical parent that even if they don't mean it, they don't know, they're, they're surviving in the world and then they're trying to raise you to survive in the world. Oh yeah, no, totally. Listen, my mom loved me very, very much. She loved me very, very much. And I know

that. Was there ever tender moments with her? No. Did she, the tender. That wasn't like a way of life. Like life was too. There was no how are you doing in my family. Right. There is never like wanting to know how crying. No, no days. Well, we had to stop crying. So like the group, but we, the group, you know, the, the, the, the, my brothers and sisters got, um, sister and we would get together and we would say, okay, we just have to stop crying. Because if we stop crying, because if we stop crying, we, she's going to start stop beating on us you know she's only beating on us because she likes seeing the crying right she knows it's affecting us so we got to stop and so we just one by one stopped and she would punish you guys with like spankings or like beatings beetings like what's a beating

you know like like like a like just grab anything and hit you with it type thing or like my mom has broken a broom over like my sister's head. Right. She's tied me up on the railing and whip me. You know, I've been chained up to a dog caller and put in the dog house. Oh my God. Stuff like that. Abusive, like bad things, you know, like the kind of stuff that I would like literally

I would be in a story like in our friends would be like, oh yeah, my mom. Like she totally, you know, you know, my daddy, you know, we, I have. I had to go to bed early and my dad didn't let me watch TV and then the friend like, yeah, my mom hit me in the butt the other day and it really stung. And I'm like, yeah, my mom would put hot spoons on the burner and put it on our tongues and everybody would be like, what? This is, okay. And it wasn't until my adult years, I'm not kidding, until I realized like, oh, that's

that was not cool, you know, because you're just thinking this is the way you're raised. And listen, honestly, I'll tell you this, the honest. I wouldn't change one thing. Oh. Because I love the person I turned out to be. And I'm loving who I keep growing into, you know. Absolutely. You are, listen, you're that, those stories, first of all, I have to say, you can't

change anything. Yeah. Right? We can't. But abuse is tough one for me. And it's not that we have to accept it. It's wrong. But we can't change it.

some people become broken from it. Yeah. And then there's these like incredible people like you. I'm very like I'm sensitive to it because I've been around it my whole life. And it's something that I've done a lot of thinking about. What do you mean by that? That I've been around it my whole life. I would say I didn't suffer the horrible abuse that you just kind of explained.

You gave me a little peak. I'm sure there's more to it. It's horrifying to me because. as kids, we don't choose to be abused or neglected or there's lots of different forms of it, but physical abuse is like the manifestation of that in its like worst form is those like levels of physical abuse too. It's just like there's levels to it. But to me it's all horrible. Neglect is pretty bad too. And then there's emotional abuse, which is also really twisted and like which one's worse. It's like this big world. To which one did you have?

I would say, I never talk about this stuff. I would say neglect, emotional, and some physical, but not to the level that I think it was negligence. Yeah, but just so you know, there is no abuse is abuse, whether someone got hit harder or you got hit softer. That doesn't matter because it's still affecting the same system.

You're still, yeah, you're still being affected. Still, the injury is the injury? And I feel emotional abuse. I had that and mental abuse is actually, I rather have the beatings, you know, because that one's the one that sticks with you the most. And you can kind of, when you become an adult with the physical, you can kind of go, that was wrong.

Yeah. I know it. It's black and white. But emotional. Emotional, you have to. There's paths that it creates. It's really fucked up. It causes these things, you know, the way you think, the way you operate, the way you feel

about yourself. So, like, what did it do for you? And also I will say that like there is negligent abuse. There's abuse like you could say, well, I didn't mean it. I have this or I have this problem or I have a drinking problem or I have a, you know, or also then to witness abuse as well if you witness your parents abusing each other. There's so many like to me like levels and angles that abuse and trauma, those kind of traumas can affect us.

So it's very complicated because I think like a lot of people go through it and they don't realize they... How did it affect you? It affected me in a few different ways. So anxiety. I developed anxiety at a very young age. I started having panic attacks around the age of 11. And I would have them every day of my life until I was in my late 20s and realized I didn't even know what that was. I thought it was normal.

So it was really strange when I started going to therapy, which was like in my late 20s after I was lucky enough to have like a few relationships with really good people who really cared about me. And that would say, I'd say that's what set me on my path to like therapy and like really working on myself and developing a bunch of shit that I didn't get to develop. And so that was like my journey was actually, I went out into the world. There was a super religious house. It was very like, and then my dad was an alcoholic.

And then there was the darker side of our family was there. But then there was this like, these moments of like, I guess happiness. I don't know if we were ever happy, but like they were trying. And like it was a really strange place to grow up because also they used religion as like, like we're better, we're kind of like better than everyone else. Everyone else is going to hell. Kind of like that's the messages I got like when I was a kid. And I never felt like it fit me.

Like I never really like believed. I'm like, well, they don't look so bad. Everyone looks pretty, it's like they're having fun over there. Like, you know what I mean? But it was like being upside down and like this is down and this is up. Kind of the way you're raised in like religion. And so it was really tough because everything had a religious kind of. Was it Christian or Catholic?

Like evangelical Christian. Like very hardcore. Go to church three times a week. And everything has had a religious connection to it. So everything we did was because of this. And it was like, or if something bad happened, it was because this. You know, they hit you. It was because of this. If it was this, so it was very religious, like everything was attached to the religion. So it was a very confusing way to grow up because really you're not learning how life works. You're not learning how the world works.

You're not learning anything useful to go into the world and actually function for all the religious people out there. It's a beautiful thing. The transcendence. part of life, the higher meaning, the idea that there's something bigger than us, that God is up there, it's incredible and it's important. I'm not taking that away. But you have to know how the world works to be in the world. So you've got to understand how you get a job and you work and you build over time and things can grow and you can build. It's not just, you know, praying is like a meditation, right? You can manifest, meditate, you can pray. Then you have to get up every day and you have to do things and you have to work with all different people and you have to like learn

how to be in the world. I think too with religion, ritual practice is important. Yeah. You know, so I think that it's not a matter of maybe someone not wanting to teach you the way of the world, but that is the world. That's the world. Yeah. That is the world that they live in.

And so there's, you know, and, you know, there's like that routine of doing something. You know, like I feel like I live in a bubble, you know, because I don't like to venture out too much. This is the world I live in. I want to be right here, but I'm not, you know, forcing anybody to be in it. But it's like, you know, I'd be curious, like, as far as the anxiety and having kids, like, did any of that transfer into you being a father and having children? And did you have any concerns? Because that was one of my biggest concerns when Sarah came to me after we got married and said, you know, I think you. you're supposed to have a kid.

And I'm like, no way. If there's one percent of my mom in me, uh-uh. You know? And so then it wasn't until we had roads. Did I go, oh my God, I'm a great, I'm a great mom, you know. And I'm really amazing. In fact, everything wrong my mother did, it was showing me what not to do, you know. And so, and I basically raise roads with,

how I wished I was raised, you know, with that same love and compassion and understanding and respect. Yeah, same strategy for me. Yeah, okay, great. Just do what I wish I would have. Like, I'm actually just living the childhood I never got with my kids. So in some ways, it's really fun because I'm just like a kid. I don't give a fuck. I'm like, I just love it.

And then in some way, and now as teenagers now, they don't really want to like hang with me all the time. They still do a little bit. Like we have a cool relationship, but like I just have lived vicariously. I think for Nicole, it's a little frustrating sometimes because she's the rule keeper. There has to be some structure. There has to be some rules.

We find our balance. But definitely the strategy is like, let's have a good childhood. Let's make some memories. Let's have fun. Yeah. So that's great. I think that that was a really wonderful

and beautiful gift that was given, you know, because it really, you know, having that child really healed me a lot. I mean, more than I can ever imagine. And, you know, going back to, you know, you and the anxiety, and I'm sure there's more, but I won't press for that. But it's like... There's some stuff. Yeah, yeah, I know.

But it's like how amazing in a weird way. So like when you're talking about being broken and stuff, like having those experiences really help define who I am and where my songs come from, you know, who I am as an adult, who I'm as a friend, and having this, you know, kind of, everybody always calls me badass or fears or whatever. I'm just a strong human being that has survived, you know,

a lot of things. and to back up when I say that if a, you know, a burglar came in, I wouldn't be like a victim. No, yeah. I would just say, go for it, you know, and I would probably attack, you know, like I would be that person. Yeah. You have a gun. I don't care.

You get a couple shots in me, but you're going down, you know, because you will not fuck with my family. Like, I'm that person. And I love that, you know. Like Rhodes says to me all the time, like, I know that. I know that you will always protect me and take care of me. Yeah. I know that about you.

You have that vibe. You know, and I'm like. I feel like it went on with you. I'm like, I'm not worried. You know, so. How much of this is in the documentary? So the documentary is a funny one because I didn't mean to make a documentary, first of all. I let someone come in my studio that wanted, that thought I was interesting and wanted to shoot

be a fly on the wall. Like in my mind, the last thing I thought was a documentary. I thought he was just going to get some cool footage and I could use for content for social media. Yeah, but also like to document any part of our life, we'll never regret it. Even though we probably don't do it enough, I'm the same.

I'm like, eh, cameras. But then any time I've ever let it just like on a tour, now on if we ever do tours, which isn't often, we bring somebody because we just want the footage because I look back and I wish I would have filmed more. So it's a good thing to do. But yeah, so I was just,

just like, sure, whatever, can I use some of it for social media? And what's funny is I remember his look when I said that. It was more like, okay, because I think he already knew what he was up to and didn't tell me. And so then all of a sudden stuff started happening. You know, I started having a meltdown. You know, I started things were going on in a very short period of time while he was there. And I'm just like thinking, of course, you know. And then he came to me and he said, hey, you know, that footage I've been, you know, the stuff I've been shooting. I'm like, yeah. And he's like, well, I added 30 minutes of it. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, and I showed it to some people. And I'm like, uh-huh. And he's like, and everybody thinks it's a documentary. And I just looked at

him and I said, Don, I don't want to hear about it. Do what you're going to do, but don't include me. you know, and he started laughing. He's like, but the documentary would be about you. I'm like, I hear you, but I don't want to know about it. And then I'm like, so just do what you're going to do. If I said it, I'll stand behind it. If you caught me, how can I deny it? That's pretty cool.

You know, just do what you're going to do, but don't fucking talk to me about it. I don't want to know about it, you know. So, you know, cut to stuff going on, going on and whatever. And then, you know, the end ended up, you know, like, okay Linda, I need you to see the documentary. And I'm like, do I have to? And he's like, yes, you have to sign off on it. It's about you.

So anyways, the documentary is not about my life story. It's not about Forna non-Blond. It's about a moment I was having after years of like writing for other people and trying to bring out the best and people like, you know, I'm hard in the studio because when I see potential in somebody, I want them to know about it. I want them to bring it out. You know, I'm wanting to help them bring it out.

But what I do is I'm like, I got your clothes on, I got her clothes on, I got their clothes on. I'm fucking loaded up with clothes. I'm drowning. I'm suffocating. And underneath it all, I forgot what I was wearing. You know, so I started losing my identity. Like, who am I? I can't write a song for myself.

I can write a song for anybody else, but I can't write a song. a song for me. And I'd sit and try to write a song. Okay, you know, I think there's one moment in the movie where I'm going, what would Linda write? You know, and I'm like, blank. Okay, Joe, what do you want to do? I hear's five ideas. You know, just spewing, chum, sending. It's like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. But anytime I want to write for me, it's like, crickets, crickets. So that's what the documentary is about. And so I have this breakthrough kind of, because there's a, a big moment with my mom. There's a moment with my health. And at the ending, it is so beautiful. You're happy with it. No, I'm not, but it's like a really beautiful moment. And it's a beautiful

expression. And it's so stunning to me. And that moment, I was like, okay, I get it. I get why this had to happen. It is so unflattering visually on me, you know, and it is raw as can be. It is so beyond embarrassingly honest. It's, I mean, I can't fucking believe I'm going to let this motherfucker out there, but it's like I realize why it needs to go out there. Especially now. You know, and then at the end of it, I wrote this song, and that's the beautiful moment. You know, like, I wrote a song for me. And then I'm teaching the band, and it was in real time. You know, I wrote it the night before I asked the director to go into the studio.

I'm going to go in a rehearsal room. I'm going to mate. I'm going to put a band together. I'm going to have strings. I'm going to have backgrounds. He's like, what are you going to do? And I'm like, I have no idea. And he's like, so why all the musicians?

I'm like, because something's going to happen, Don, and I believe that, you know. So he's like, okay, I'll be there. He gets the crew, and he calls me the night before. He's like, um, do you know what you're going to do yet? I'm like, I have no idea. So I hang up the phone with him. Maybe a couple hours later, I just started sobbing and I go to the piano and I just wrote this such a beautiful song.

And why were you crying? Because it was, it was a lot, you know. And I don't want to spoil why I wrote the song. Okay. I love it. I can't wait to watch it. Yeah. And so I wrote this song and then I call him in the morning and said I wrote a song.

He's like, great. And it's a really good one. So I enter in. He starts filming right away and I'm finishing up the lyrics. The band show, I tell the band to show up at 10, strings show up 11, BV show up at 12. So a band shows up at 10. I teach him the song. strings walk in right at 12 or 11 and I have a part in my head as soon as I see them the

part shows up filming that teach them right when I'm done with that the BVs show up I teach them the background vocal and then we are playing it and it's like it all you see all that in real time happening you know and it's just this really incredible moment to watch a song come from nowhere. Yeah. And you're teaching it to everybody right then and there. This wasn't like over weeks. This was a few hours, if even that, you know.

It's like watching a painter paint. It just showed up. And, you know, I didn't know what the drum beats were going to be. I didn't know what the bass part of the guitar, but it's like, I'm teaching everybody as it's coming. Oh, I like that. Blah, ba, strings, no. Okay, da-da-da.

Okay, B-Vs. Okay, I don't know. But here, sing that. And then at the same time, I'm still trying to learn. in the song myself. Yeah, but you are a master. I'm just saying you're a master. So you've been doing this for enough time with talent.

You're not just someone who doesn't have talent who learned how to do it. And you have the ability because of your experience and all the awful and wonderful things you've gotten to experience in life, which not many people can say. They've experienced the pendulum to the furthest it's swung out. Like how far bad can you swing it out? Pretty far bad. I'd say, you're getting a hot spoon put on your tongue or getting whatever. It's pretty far away here.

And then rock stardom all the way over here, right? And then having children, having the experience of all these incredible things, right? You've gotten to see the whole pendulum. So there's something about that. Not many people, those people live right in the here. They're like, it kind of hits these sides. It's like pretty good, pretty bad, pretty good. Right? You've got to go all the way to the edge,

all the way to the edge. So much so that some people, this is why I don't think being a rock star is good for everyone, some people go to the edge and they kill themselves because it's too much. That's a sad truth of this thing we do, where there's a edge that we all look at. And we go, do I want to go over the edge?

Some of us will go over the edge and become a shell of a person and we're not real. We can't sit here and actually feel things and we don't know what we like and we don't have real connected relationships. And like, I've seen, we've seen, you know, you know what I'm talking about. Like there are people who are living in a shell and you're like, who's in there? And then you have these people who accomplish incredible things, which you have.

But I think I wanted to touch base on the unhappy people that you're talking about, like that, you know, hit the edge and, you know, don't want to be here anymore. I think that, too, is all stems from no one ever feeling good enough. you know like you get someone like now mind you i have no idea of the state of mind of this person but like if you get like someone like kurt cobane who you know is a heroin addict you know yeah we know that um but you get to a point of where you know no it doesn't matter what you you can call me a master loving everything you're making me out to be like a pretty powerful person but i don't see that right right I'm like going, who the fuck is he talking about? You know, I'm constantly hard on myself.

I'm not good enough. You got to be better. You got to do this. You got, you know, that song sucks. You got to write better. You got to get more in touch. You know, you got to get more, you know, you start, Linda, you got to work on your patience.

Linda, you're, you got to stop overreacting. You got to blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm constantly adjusting in life. Yeah. You know, I'm constantly trying to adjust because. Ultimately, I would love to be this person that you're talking about, but I don't see it yet. So that, to me, would set anybody that's my depression. The thing that gets me the most is that I can never, ever just go, I've made it.

Yeah, it's pretty good. You know, like, I can't get there. I can't get there. Do you ever go like, that was pretty good? I'm happy with that. That's good. Perfect. Okay.

Yeah, no. Like, okay. He's like saying it. I'm like, weirdo, what are you talking about? All I'm saying. Can you do that?

All I'm saying is, you know, okay, let me say, I say that with Rhodes. Well, there you go. With my child,

I'm like, I can confidently say I'm an awesome mom. I'm trying my best. I'm not always perfect, but I'm doing a great job because I see it in that child. Like, that kid is phenomenal.

And I can honestly, they say that, you know, but like, am I a great producer? No, I don't think I am. Will I get there? Hopefully, am I the greatest songwriter? I still have a long way to go to get there. You know, although I can write all these songs, you know, but I don't think everything I do is great. I can identify a good song. Like, okay, you know what? I like this. I like this record. Okay. I understand what you're saying. But I think there's a base where we have to hold it's a practice, right? We're never going to be out of practice.

We're always going to be, like there's never going to be a level that I'm satisfied with as a songwriter. And maybe you'll never ever truly be satisfied. But I think, like, I do think that comes with even just wanting to master something, like anything, whether it was golf or whether it was art or whatever. There is something like to people who are in pursuit of the very best they can of themselves.

that will never be fully satisfied, but that they can hold it and go like, like the way you probably, the way I am with my kids and the way I can hear it right away when you talk about roads, I know exactly what kind of mom you are. That's everyone's dream mom. The mom who accepts you, supports you, still pushes you a little bit to like try your best, but like you can't fail in her eyes.

You can't let her down. She's never going to be ashamed of you. He's always going to. to like welcome you with a hug. It doesn't create a weak person. It creates a strong person. So I always say like what I did get some of was acceptance of like if you fuck up. Your mom like helps you figure it out. She's like talks to you and it's like, it's okay. Let's figure this out. It's not saying you're right or you're wrong or whatever. Just acceptance, like a hug. And they see you and they and they love you just as you are. And so it makes you

want to go try. It makes you want to. So I think there's like some of that like. like we give because we didn't get it. And then some of it we have to like, what I've learned with my kids probably is that I need to give it to myself sometimes. But it's so easy to do for our kids because they're like, I think the experience you have when you're young

it shapes like you either repeat it or you do the opposite. And we're doing the opposite. But I think that, you know, going back to the whole story of just, you know, okay, you got the documentary and, you know, here I am exploring, okay, who I am in this film.

And then after, fact, I, you know, I wrote this whole album, you know, all of a sudden just, shoot, came out. Then it turns into, you know, going to Tribeca and premiering the movie and then performing this album, you know, and I'm like, you know, having, you know, like this is amazing. Then it goes into, you know, all this is happening, and then the four non-blons and then, but you'll appreciate this. So when I forgot to, I want to bring it back there because it's a funny thing. So after the fact I put the rules down, the other rule I said is like,

and by the way, I don't want to play any for non-blon songs except for a train and what's up. Those are the only two songs I'll play at these shows. And then everybody was like, but what are we going to play? And I'm like, I'm working on that. And then in a matter of- Bad ass, by the way. In a matter of two or three weeks, I wrote a whole album. And I kept sending it to them.

As I wrote the song, I sent it to them. They would rehearse it in San Francisco. And then finally, by the time we were going to rehearse and start rehearsing for Bottle Rock, I had a whole, you know, whole set of all new songs except for train and what's up. Did you have fun? I had so much fun because what I, what was great about is I've never written a record like this or written in this style. But I was thinking, okay, so I don't want to play the old songs, get it. but I'm going to be playing a bunch of new songs.

So what kind of show do I want to have? What kind of show do we want to have? Do I want to have the show where it's like a good Charlotte and people are, or do I want like, you know, a show where there's a little bit of dung, dung, dung, and a little bit of listening, you know, oh, okay, I think that. That would be a balance, you know. I like that. And then, but in order for.

for people to get into it, they're going to need to sing these choruses. I got to get them to sing the courses. So I just like, I'll just write the most simplest hooks, simple choruses, not very wordy at all, and that's where I went. So I created a whole show and just, okay, this is where we're going to have our downtime, you know, and this is where this song's going to show up. So it was really fun. You know, there are a bunch of dumb, fun songs that have some depth, but not too much. you know and so as we are playing I could tell right away what songs were working okay that one people are not grabbing onto so the next time right when the next time I write another one they're going to put it this song in and so I kept doing that until it was like literally the master

album it's like every single song I'm watching people they're jumping up and down they're all the right cues are happening and I'm like there's the album you know that's a great way to write an album so it's a great album. I'm really actually impressed with myself about that one. So there. You love your record. I love it. I think it's really cool. So I'm not done recording it, but they're coming in next week and we're

going to, because I wrote three more because I want to also have the best album. So I keep replacing songs. And so I just wrote three more. They're like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm like, it's got to be the right album. It's like, it's got to be 10, 11

songs, 12 tops, but it's just got to be a really solid record, you guys, because if we're going to do this after 30 years, I just want it to be the best record. It can be. And I want to know that I did everything I possibly could, you know? So they're coming in next week. We're going to record these three songs. Then it's like some overdubs and then off to Dave Way to mix. You know, but I... When's their record come out? My record just came out in my documentary. It's called Let It Die here but anyways all those things are it's a very deep it's very it's a lot to take in right it's a story about me and my mom you know very cinematic um I scored my documentary so I

brought some of the score into the album to and you'll hear why I needed to do that because they were transitions they were emotional transitions and it's like I have strings I have theremin I have vibes I have Marimba I have a samba song. It's like I have so many different characters in this album. It's, it's, it's, and I just didn't think about it. I was just like, you know what? I don't know what Neil Diamond is doing here, but I'll fucking do it, you know?

Yeah. All of a sudden, like this Neil Diamond character shows up. I don't even listen to Neil Diamond. And I'm like, what does this remind me? And I'm like, oh, of Neil Diamond. And but I'm, instead of judging it, I just, I just did it. I just went with it. And so I think a lot of my influences showed up.

And I think the influences showed up because they are reminding me of moments of what's going on in my life. So the documentary isn't about my life, but the album is. Right. You know, and so then Forna and Blonde's songs will come out this side of the year, but the album itself will come out in 2027. Wow. But I'll release a couple of songs on this side. That's a big year.

Yeah, it is. year or where i've been planting a lot of friggin seats you know and talking about swinging i'm swinging off that edge and i'm gonna fucking dive off of it you know swan dive off of that you know i'm going and i like to me the only thing i can say is i'm in a moment i'm on a wave right now i'm just trying to stay in it and not control it yeah and it doesn't mean i love it but i'm in it And I'm appreciating why I'm in it. And I don't really understand completely, but I'm so like, I'm in something. I'm in it.

I'm in, I don't know. That's all I can say is I'm in a moment. And I'm totally digging it. I'm really like, all right, I'm going to own it. I'm going to take it. I'm not really thinking about age. I'm not thinking about anything. I'm just like past, present, whatever.

I'm just going to be in this moment with you as we are talking today. There's no agenda. There's no plan. As soon as you said, I asked you, said, what? Do you want to talk about something? You said, no, I'm like, that's the only way I like to talk. Yeah. So this has been a dream conversation because I feel like when we go in and plan things,

planning can mess things up because, you know, it's like, well, maybe we were going to go this way. But because we had a plan, we stopped. from very often asking about you and talking about your anxiety and some of the things that happened to you in your life. And maybe tonight when you go home, you'll go to Nicole and say, you know what,

the strange thing happened today, talked about my anxiety and it made me feel a certain way, but I was okay with it. Because usually I probably would have ran and was like to say no, but I was actually okay with talking about it, which makes me feel like I've grown as a human being, whatever, this conversation is going to be.

So I appreciate this style of open communication. And so to me, everything that's going on with me is fully open communication. I don't know what the plan is. I'm just in it and just trying not to control it. And I'm a control freak, but I'm just trying to lay low, kick back and go, all right, I'm down with whatever's about to happen. I think you're on, I can just feel it.

Like I think you're on your path. Thank you. And all of this is necessary. necessary and you wouldn't, you know, like if you went back and said, what would you change about your career? I would tell you nothing. Ask me what I would change. What would you change? Nothing. There you go. Thank you so much for having me on this show. Thank you. Thank you for watching Artist Friendly. If you liked this episode, please make sure you hit the like button. You follow the channel and please share it with your friends. We appreciate the support. That is why this show exists because you listen to it. Thank you guys. We'll see you next time.