Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Lizzo

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Lizzo. Lizzo shows up fully in everything she does, and this Artist Friendly conversation is no different. From the diamond single — 2019’s rerecorded “Truth Hurts” — that started with tears in the studio to sleeping in her car on Thanksgiving night, she traces the full arc of who she is and how she got here. Sitting down with Madden, she discusses the Blue Note residency that turned her radio hits into intimate arrangements, the panic attack that cracked her open, and the difference between loss and abandonment. Additionally, they speak about her upcoming album, Bitch, a fall tour, and a children’s book about a flute who can’t find her voice — based on her life. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Director/Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman ------- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Good Charlotte. Good Charlotte is a band I started when I was 16 with my brother, and it is the reason I'm sitting here today. Thank you, Good Charlotte. We're going on tour. June 20th, San Diego County Fair, Delmar, California. And July 25th through August 30th, Good Charlotte and Avenged Sevenfold touring in the U.S. Starting July 25th, Thunder Ridge Nature Arena in Ridgedale, Missouri, an ending at BMO Stadium in Los Angeles, California on August 30th. If you are in the UK or Europe, we're coming to you this

November. November 8th, we are in Stockholm, Sweden. November 11th, we're in Munich, Germany. November 13th, we're in Brussels, Belgium. November 14th, Dusseldorf, Germany. In November 16th, we're in Amsterdam. November 17th, Paris, France. November 19th, London, UK. November 20th, Manchester, UK. Tickets are on sale now. We will see you at the show. Man, truth hurts. I was crying in the studio when I wrote that song. It's a diamond record, and it is the longest number one in the Guinness World Book of Records of a female rap solo song.

And I was crying, trying to get through it. Everything, this album, my new album, bitch, I'm trying to get through it. This is your new album called Bitch? Oh my God. Yeah. All right, well, you know me. I don't need no warm-ups. No, I just go straight into it.

You're ready. Me too, by the way. They'll be like, we weren't rolling. I'm like, we are rolling. Oh, and so am I. Oh, yeah. I'm just kidding. For legal reasons, that was a joke.

You know what? Say that for me every time. I'm just going to roll that every time I walk in the room. For legal reasons, all of this is a joke. reasons. This is all opinion. Yes. Oh my God. I am not giving you financial advice. Hello. That's that 2026 disclaimer. That's right. Yeah. And this was not made by AI. Hello. But we should have a disclaimer. If it was or it wasn't. If it was or wasn't made by AI. If it's made by AI, it should have a disclaimer that parts of this were made by AI. Right.

Even if it was the guy in the studio brought an AI track and we ended up recording it live and it wasn't, we didn't use the Jack still should have a disclaimer that parts of this song were made by AI. Wow, that's honorable. Don't you think? I agree. I am terrified by how quickly AI has progressed and like the quality of it. Very good. I've been training my eye since 2020 for AI because there'll be like, there'll be these

little TikTok videos where it's like, pick the one that's AI and pick the one that's real. I always do it because I was like, I cannot get scammed in 2030. But now there are like TikTokers who. are fully AI. Yeah. And I'm reading the comments and they're like, you're so beautiful, sis. Send me the skincare routine.

I was like, it's computer generating. It's AI. Yeah, it's pixels. Yes. It's 101,000, 101. But you're right that, you know,

when they say like most fraud that happens online is old people. Mm-hmm. Because they get robocalled. Mm-hmm. And they like are so nice and sweet and they're just like trying to help someone or whatever.

I feel like I'm going to be the, the in like five or 10 more years, I'm going to be the guy who gets scammed by like AI somehow. Listen, it's not going to be just you, baby, because the new scam is so insidious because they'll record your voice. Somehow they have audio recording of your voice. Yes. And then they'll somehow call your loved ones from your phone number. Have you heard that? No, but yes, I've heard it. Help. Send me $50,000. Help. And I'm like, and it'll be that person's voice. It'll be sick. It's crazy. They can generate all kinds of things. But you know what? I also feel like that's just going to usher in

like what is real. Yeah. What is real anymore? Like I don't believe anything I see on my phone, on TV, nothing. It's what my dad used to say when I was little. Really? Was don't believe anything you hear. Uh-huh. And half of what you see. Wow. And that was, you know, 1980. Hello. You know, I was born in 79. So what he read, 85 when he said that to me. Isn't that when, is that the book? 1984. 1984. He must have read it.

He read it when you were in the womb. Yeah. But, but, but that's the idea is I tell people all the time, especially if you've been here long enough in, let's say, let's just broaden it and say entertainment. Culture. Right. We are generating. Okay. So we start as kids who want to make art.

Mm-hmm. And then we get into the big. bad world of there's money, there's this, there's that, and it's serious, it's serious business, it's big. And we get thrown into all of it. And at first it can feel like, I think it can be really hard until we toughen up a little bit. And we start to realize like, this is the world. Like this is the nature of whether it's the nature of success or fame or having things, which I think was for me getting used to having stuff. And what I tell my kids too is like, like, be careful reading, be careful of like buying into a narrative on someone that you have never met.

You know what I mean? And I just think that when you throw in AI and you throw in also you throw in the nature of social media, which in some aspects of it, it's really good because you can go and express yourself and tell the truth or do that, whatever. But on the other hand, people choose narratives. They start running away with things. And I've dealt with it. You know, my family's dealt with it, whatever. But everybody has a comment.

Everybody can make a comment. And we forget, like we give them a lot of credit. We forget that it's someone like sitting on the toilet or driving in traffic or ridiculous. That's why I'd be like your fave takes a shit just like everybody else. That's right. And they're probably struggling. And they're probably posting this while they do it. Exactly.

You know, there is a time where, because I came up in the indie scene. So I was like going through the indie circuits and doing the South by Southwest thing and playing dive bars. You're like a critical darling. Oh. You're like very critically acclaimed. Thank you. I'll take that over. Well, it's because you're talented.

Thank you. And there's a differentiator when someone has skills in this thing. Yeah. versus just their being great at performing is one thing, which you are. Thank you. But you also have real skills and talent. You're very good at what you do. Thank you.

That's why I'm here, honestly, because somebody who looks like me from where I'm from wouldn't have made it here, I think, otherwise, unless I, honestly, like at the time, I am like a plus-sized pop star, a black girl. And I feel like that is, I might be the first one. like who who did they allow to be you know plus size and in the pop space i remember um martha wash like they had a model step in and in lip sync her part because they were like they didn't like the way she looked but her voice was incredible her voice is iconic and i am very grateful for my talent it's the one thing that i'm confident in that i know for sure i got in the bag and it

brought me to this point but to what you were saying earlier there is a point in your career when you realize, oh, you get jaded a little bit. Or I don't want to, I don't want to call it jaded because, but you just see everything for what it is. And now I can see the machine working against people. And I'll be like, oh, absolutely rigged. And I'll look and I'll see everybody. Oh, everybody hates this pop star now.

Come on, guys. We're going to fall for this again. It was designed. Yes. This person said this, you're going to believe this person who you've never met. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Over this person.

Who's done nothing? That's the other thing you got to remind people is, is there's this, the double-edged sword of people will elevate you. And then because they do that, you become evil because you're in some position. They put you. They're the ones who are speaking about you like you're up here. You're not actually speaking about yourself that way. You're just a talented person making art.

And then they elevate you just so they can take the shots. and like everyone loves to see that like the fall or the up and down. And being really clear, they to me is not fans. No, no, no, no. No, no. No, no. Yeah. Never.

And one thing that I'm always grateful for is like I have worked for years to have fans of my music. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And I love them. But I also see just agitators. Yeah. You know, and it's not, I'm not even talking about myself. I'm talking about what I've just observed.

I'm like, whoa. Everywhere. Yeah, and I'm like, y'all just chill, man. Just enjoy the music. Like, you don't hate someone you've never met. You never met them. You've never sat with them. You never.

You don't know this person. How you hate them? Like, eight is a strong word. Don't give them that energy. Yeah. You know? I think they hate themselves. That's how I always see it.

This episode of Artist Friendly is brought to you by Better Help. If you listen to the show, you know we talk about therapy a lot. I go to therapy and not something I'm uncomfortable sharing. But for some people, they don't know where to start therapy. They don't have a lot of resources or options in finding different therapists. BetterHelp has thousands of therapists. It's easy to switch. If you try someone out and you don't like it, you can switch quickly to another one.

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So if you're in the fatherhood journey, you need to talk to someone about it. You need to work out parenting styles. You need to work on maybe there's something you want to adjust or change or work on, you think you could do better. Therapy is a great place to work these things out. It's great to have someone to talk with about it. It's great to be able to work out some vulnerable things in the privacy of therapy. So all the dads out there that are looking to continue to try and be the best dads they can be, therapy is a great place to work on that. And BetterHelp is a great solution. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com

slash artist friendly. That's betterhelp.com slash artist friendly. Best tea. When you meet someone who really, I have to say, you are, I mean this in the most

honest, observant way. You are very beautiful, stunning. You have like a real energy, a real like style. I've obviously seen you over the years,

but I've never gotten to hang out with you. So you have a real Thank you. Special one of one kind of. Thank you. I always tell people I look better in person and I look really good online too. So.

Yeah. To say better in person to me feels like it's striking. Thank you. It's interesting to your point about like people who say or when you say oh they don't love themselves.

That is why my music is about self-love. And that's why I drive that message home. And I always say, like, if you don't like me, that's fine. I'm not making music for people who don't like me. I'm making music for people who love themselves. Yeah. You know?

And that's why it's a through line, no matter what, no matter how much I change, no matter how much time goes by with the messages, it's always going to be about seeking and finding that love for yourself because it's such a daily up and down battle, you know. But I think the people who gravitate to my music want to hear. And I think that's a beautiful thing. Would you say that you've had to heal a lot? Like would you say that's been the journey for you?

Like self-love healing. I'm the wounded healer. Where did you realize that? I feel like you can't love yourself unless you know yourself. You know what I mean? Like girls, that's just an infatuation, you know? And I think to know yourself is to know you're going to change and be okay with that. And shit's not always going to be okay and to be okay with that.

And I think people like to, you know, like to conflate that with toxic positivity. Like I love myself, even though I don't like this thing, I love myself. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because love is love. Like even somebody, when you love somebody, even when they get on your fucking nerves,

you still love them at the end of the day. You know what I mean? And that's the relationship that you need to have with yourself. I think for me, I had like the opposite thing. It started for me back when I did an interview and I couldn't name one thing about myself that I liked. And it was, this was before truth hurts,

before everything. I was still an indie musician. And they were like, what do you like about yourself? I was like, oh, my personality. And they were like, no, honey, like physically. And I couldn't, I couldn't name anything. And it made me emotional to tears. I was like, my skin. And then, because I do love my skin, but I never thought about it, you know, because I've been so as, you know, how I look and where I'm from, I'm a fat black girl. I grew up in the South and like, you know, being Kirby's a little bit more cool and acceptable down there, but I still was, you know, not the ideal body or beauty type. And so I never put any value in the way that I looked.

My value was in my humor. I was funny, you know, I was charismatic, and I was talented. And that was where all my value and self-worth was. And they were like, what do you like about yourself? And I was like, I don't know. And then I was like, my skin. And so I wrote a song about it. It was called My Skin.

And people, that's when people started connecting to me as an artist. And people were crying at my concerts. And I was like, whoa, what's happening? I was like, this is really powerful. This is healing. This is helping. It's healing me in the process. And that's when I decided, like, I need to keep going.

You like your skin? Do you like your body? Do you like your hair? Do you like the hyperpigmentation you got around your elbows? Do you like your crooked teeth? You like your snaglet tooth? Like, do you like these things? And I was going through it and going through it.

And everyone, the whole world watched me go through it. And that's what the body positive movement kind of came from. Like I was a part of this beautiful movement that a bunch of activists and incredible people burgeoned into the world. And I was on the musical side. And I learned a lot in front of everyone. I feel like people kind of put body positivity on me like I'm the PhD professor and I had it all figured out.

And I was, you know, teaching the world. But really, I was teaching myself. I was learning in front of millions of people. about what I loved about myself and how to express it. And it got me to this position that I'm in now, which is a very fortunate, beautiful, blessed, fulfilled position where nobody can say anything about me, about my physical body that could tear me down.

Like nobody can say, you can call me fat, you can call me ugly, I know it's not true. So, you know, and then you get to a point where I think with the body it's like okay well you don't like something about yourself then change it but like personality some things about me is just like this is who I am bro

like this is just who the fuck I am and I'm slowly gaining confidence back in who I am because the world started to tell me who I was and I started to believe it and then the world changed that narrative and I was believing that too and that destroyed myself confidence

and I was severely depressed because I was believing a lie. And now I had to isolate and figure out who the fuck I am and realize that it's not what the world says about me. And I fell back in love with myself. And now I have so much confidence in who I am because I embrace it. I'm okay. Sometimes I'm a bitch. But sometimes I'm your best friend.

I think what you're, you know, what you're describing is actually, when someone's in a process of growth and they're actually trying to work on themselves, and I'm not speaking, anyone listening, I'm not speaking about all people, but it is very hard to grow. And it is very hard to come to terms with certain things about ourselves in accepting certain things, right? I've been out here for 20 some years and I have a front row seat. I've seen a lot of different people experience success and fame. We just call it what it is, whatever that fame thing means to you. I go, well, if you can survive the first time. Yes. It's fucked up because I know what you're talking about, but no one else will know. Because you see that new kid come.

And you're like, I'm like, oh, okay. All right. I'm hoping they make it. But man, oh, you poor thing, good luck. Because you can only do it alone. Yeah. You can only do it alone. It doesn't matter. Anyone says, and it'll cut you both ways. Yeah.

And if you can survive the first round in the ring with fame, and then get past it and survive all the shit, people are going to try to do, they're going to say, just remember, once you get up there, you are public property. And so we have to get there. Yeah. If we truly believe in ourselves, if we believe in who we are. You have to continue to be yourself. And be yourself.

But sometimes if you lose yourself, that's when. And you can lose yourself. And in those moments of losing yourself, I have, everyone hasn't. You get a couple of those. You can. And actually, I think they're not necessarily bad all the time. Even though you could say this was horrible, you could go down the road and look back and go, you know, it wasn't the worst thing.

I think what you've done and what you're doing is you're having the real life experience in front of everybody. Yeah. And you're putting it into art. And that's what we need. That was hard for me to do because I am a yapper. Are you a yapper? Oh, my God. I go online and I'm like, I put a camera up and I'm like, guys, listen to me.

I'm like, no. Do you share online? So much. Do you go live? I used to. Oh, you have a lot of. TikTok followers. That's one of the notes I got. Oh, yes. I was the queen of music TikTok. I was the queen of music. I was like the number one was female music like everyone would follow me. But it's all good.

TikTok's different now. So it's okay. Yeah, I used to overshare. Okay. Because that's the kind of girl I was. And I've only recently, I made a decision. I was like, put it in the music, bitch. Like, shut the fuck up and put in the fucking music. And you said something so profound. And that was what I was trying to say earlier when I was like, oh, you become McDonald's. You become public property. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I'm absolutely not lifestyles of the original famous. It's always complaining. I'm not complaining. I am. I am. Well, if money is such an opposite. But I'm public property, but I think the tradeoff for that is I get to make music. and play shows and help people on a mass level.

And it is the joy of my life. It's the absolute joy of my life. And that's all I want to do. So I'm going to keep doing that whether everyone likes me, whether everyone hates me, whether everyone's indifferent about me. I don't think anyone hates you. Really?

I think everyone hates me all the time. Maybe I'm anxious. Honestly, you have a very good perception out there. Put this in the final edit. Listen, listen, we live in a time where everything seems so big at the moment.

Yeah. This is why I like doing this show. Because we exist in media somewhere in like a real way. There's a lot of music fans, but we're not looking for clicks or like that internet moment where like, but the truth of the person when they sit down in the chair is here for somehow some way. It's a good chair. When people sit in this chair.

It's a good chair. You get a sense of them. Yeah. And you're exactly. what I thought, who I thought you were. Thank you. And I think that you have a very good, like, I think who you are, the little girl who had to figure out how she felt about herself is like a real thing.

Every little girl has to do that. And little boys too, whatever. But like every kid has to do that. They have to figure out. You didn't get born anyone else. You got born you. And then you have to figure out if you're worth it. While the world is constantly.

telling you how you're not worth it. And then you're not. They're telling you you're not. Yeah. I read you these stats, but they're not yours. Okay. They're Anastas. Would you be impressed?

Four-time Grammy Award winning, Emmy Award winning, singer, songwriter, rapper, flutist, actress. Multiple hot 100 smashes, dozens of gold, platinum, multi-platinum, all that. Nine times platinum this, 10 times platinum that. And this is all real. And these are your stats. Yeah. But if I said that to you.

Guinness World Book of Records for Longest Female Rap number one. That's right. I can keep going. Let me add that. Grammy record of the year. You know, the wild thing about this, you sound like my man. My man has to remind me because before I moved into my new house, I lived in this, like, really glass box.

So there were no walls, really just all windows, you know, to L.A. shit. Oh, yeah. So I had nothing really nice view. Beautiful view. gorgeous gowns nothing to hang any art or anything on no wall space so all of my like plaques and

photos were just like in storage somewhere and my man was like he goes to like the thrift store all the time very thrifty person super cool guy yeah he's like yeah ultra cool and he was like I got something for you and I was like what and he came and it was this

framed cover vanity motherfucking fair bitch cover Vanity Fair, styled by Patty Wilson, fucking hot shit. Serious. Big shit. Yeah. And he like, he framed it and he put it right where I could see it every morning when I woke up when I was like super depressed. And he said, I need you to wake up every day and remember who you are. This is who you are. And it's not cover of vanity fair. It was just,

that was like the height of my confidence with everything going on in my life between body, between career, between everything. And he was like, that's who you are. And he's like, where are your plaques? I was like in storage. She was like, put the plaques up. Don't forget that you are a second. I'll be like, they be sleeping on me. Who is sleeping on you? No one sleeping on you.

Yeah. Nobody's sleeping on you. He has to remind me because I have, and it's not because I'm ungrateful. And it's not because I'm like obtuse in any way. It's just I, A, lack self-awareness, but B, I still have the mind of an indie rapper who played glass. at 12 in the afternoon in a tent with no one there. Right.

I'm still that girl. Right. Like, I'm never going to be, like, I'm, I'm never going to be comfortable or chill about a sold-out arena. I just played for 70,000 people for the Houston rodeo. My first sold-out stadium sold it out on my own in my hometown. Electricity. Like, I've never felt that feeling.

I've never been proud of a performance afterwards because I'm always finding something wrong because I'm a perfectionist, Virgo Moon. But I was like, no notes. I was like, I'm that bitch. Perfect perfection. But I will never not be like, oh my God, like you all came here for me. I'll never not be shocked. Right. So I have that hungry mind and that hungry energy like that scrappy like got to got to get there like hardworking, you know, grind. And but sometimes you need to sit back and be like, bitch, you know, you know your Emmy can't even fit on your bookshelf because you got too many fucking trophies.

That's right. Literally. Miami's sitting on my bar because it can't fit on my trophy wall. I got to pull a John Legend and get a bigger wall. You know where mine is? Where? I'll have one. I'm just saying.

Where is it? Where is it? I'm just saying, how old are you? 21. Okay. Doing great. However old you are. You're ageless.

Thank you. I believe 21. So I'm just saying. That's so funny. But what I'm saying is, is that you have to find a way to bring her along and marry the grown woman who's achieved everything. So now every other achievement is more like I can run fast. I'm going to run. I can climb that.

I'm going to do it. It's more like you don't necessarily need to win anymore. It's more that you should because you can. like God gave us talent. We need to express that. And then our expression is something like gratitude because if we can sing we should sing, right? You are spitting.

My God. This needs to come out on a Sunday because this is church. So I could take people to church. Wow. But if we are like what we were created to be and do, once we get the achievement, that's more like the confirmation. that we are what we thought we were.

Yeah. And that no one would confirm before. And you were that little girl walking around or you were that young kid walking around and you were like, hey, look, I got this thing. I'm a rapper. I can play the flute. I can do that. I can write songs.

I can do this. And I was like, oh, cool, kid. Yeah. Good luck. Good luck. How's that? How's the music thing going? Laughed in my face.

Right. Literally. Right. An adult. And you're like, oh, something's wrong with me. Yeah. Is it the way I look? Is it the way I?

Because you weren't getting. the confirmation. They're not going to do that. Because that's not what they're here for. That's not the journey. If you got the confirmation there, you wouldn't have waited all the way to get to the Grammy, the Emmy. But what we have to do because they don't validate us is validate ourselves. God, that's crazy. Right? Yes. So then we get to the mountaintop, the first one. Lionel just said to me, Ritchie. Lino Ritchie. So he was on the show. Casual. He said, you get to the first mountain top, and then you got to go back down in the valley, and then you got to climb the next mountain.

And then you just keep doing that. That valley of the shadow of the... And the valley is where you can die in the valley, he says. You can die in the valley. I pray every day as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. I fear no evil for the Lord that God is with me. That's right. Thy ride and thy staff comfort me.

Thou prepares a table before my enemies. Thou anointest my head with oil. My cup runneth over. Surely mercy and goodness will follow me all the days of my life. say it. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever and ever. Yeah. Because that valley is real. Yeah, it is real. And when you're there, you think everyone is rooting against you. Mm-hmm. They're actually just, they need to see you climb back out. Yeah. So they're- shadow work. I would, yes, I would take the nature of people being mean as their pain.

Oh. And I would say that they're just kind of like vomiting their pain up or their saying that they don't believe that joy and happiness is possible. And so that's what they're just trying to do. Just trying to punch holes in you to see if you're real. You know? Yes. And that's what you've had to experience, but you're not alone because it is the journey of an artist when you arrive. You know, I know you're like a super rock star, but you could also be a therapist. I don't know if you ever thought about opening. Bit of a hobbyist. No.

If you opened like, uh, music therapy. Literally, because I think artists need it more than people even realize. They do. Everyone needs. And they, and sometimes it's hard to talk to your therapist about what happened at the Grammys. They don't understand. Why?

They don't understand. Like, you know, and I love my therapist. Yeah, yeah. It's great. Even, even with her, I have to just kind of. be like my friend who you don't realize is platinum superstar so and so or like last night I was at this party but it was the Oscars Vanity Fair party. Yeah, it's bizarre.

It's a different kind of anxiety. It's bizarre. Yeah, and it's a different world. And I think only people who are artists who've experienced the music business and understand some of the anxiety, some of the pressure, some of the world and can help us work through it like that. Yeah, and being realistically know what you love, what you hate, what you want. Even if I say, I don't want that, I kind of do.

Yeah. So if I go to the Vanity Fair Party, right? And it's like such a big deal and everyone's there. You got to go enough times to realize everybody's fucking out of place there. Oh, honey, this last one? I didn't even drink. This last one, I drank. No, no, I'm not drinking.

I took my photos. I walked around the room. I said, what's up to Ashley Graham and Kim Kardashian. I went home. That's a smart move. I went home. Because when I start drinking, oh boy. Oh, my.

The flashback, like, you'll wake up in the middle of the eye like, what did I say that? What did I know? What did I say? It's crazy. I'm like, honey, was I okay? No, literally you were fine. You were fine. No, those were flashbacks and they never go away.

And I was just anxious. So I was like, I'll just have. one. Yeah. Just calm the nerves. And then you realize everyone's anxious. Because I'm like, and now at this point, I've been with Nicole long enough. So, you know, our short hand is good. But I'm like, honey, is this okay? Is that my, you know, because I don't like dressing up. You're good. She's like, you're fine. Just, you know. Yeah. You know, it's just, it's nerve-wracking. It really truly is. But the, when it helps me, it's like the, oh, is this appropriate? The picturing everyone in your underwear thing. Yeah, yeah. I don't picture everyone in their underwear at the

Vanity Fair Oscars after party, but I do picture everyone anxious with social anxiety. I'm like, everyone is, everyone feels like me. Everyone doesn't know what to do with their hands. I promise you, they do, right? Because think about this. As long as it took you to get ready, took all of them the same amount of time. I don't give a fuck when anyone says. So if I took time to get ready for this, so did you.

So you cared enough to be here to get ready. And like, everyone's like, I don't fucking care. of me. No. And you want to talk to me and I want to talk to you and we both don't know what to say. Yeah, exactly. So like that's what I always remind myself so that if I do go, which I think is like a great thing.

I'm not putting down the Vanity Fair party. It's a very cool thing. Oh, we love the Vanity Fair party. We've mentioned Vanity Fair like twice in this interview. Yeah, this is a huge. And you're going to be on the cover of Vanity Fair again. And we're going to prophesy that. That's right.

I'm telling you you are. after this. Yeah, we love VF, maybe. Yeah. I'm just saying, I think that, like, we have to remind ourselves that, like, we're all in kind of the same process. Yeah. It's really nice to be able to talk to another, like, artist friendly.

It's nice to talk to another artist because I don't think people, here's the other misconception. People think that all, like, famous people all know each other and we're all like best friends. It's like, no, bitch. I took a picture with them at the grannies. I don't know them. Even people who have songs together, they think they're besties. It's like, no, like, I like them as an artist. I respect their music and we collabed.

But like, I've sent them files. Yeah, and sometimes it's better that way. Yeah, and they recorded it and sent it back to me. And like, we shot the music video. But like when they were on set, I wasn't on set. And we had like 15 minutes together on camera. Like, so I don't really have many people who like to talk to about this kind of thing. I said, you know, and, you know, I talk to Siza. I love her. Like, she's the, one of the only few people.

Are you guys friends? Yeah. I really like her. I don't know her, but I like her a lot. Oh, she's, oh, you got to have her on the show. She'd love to talk to you. She's, she's cool. But like, she's the only person that I can't call and just be like, okay, bitch. She gets where I'm coming from. Like, I can't really, the da, da, da, da, da, da is I can't pretend. Because, you know, it's kind of, the kind of stuff you just can't really talk about with anyone else. And she gets me. And I feel like talking. And I feel like, talk. to you is like the same thing. Like you're like, I'm not telling you anything new. And that's semi true because I have a team of, I have like a therapist. I have an astrologer. I have a media. Oh, we got to talk about that. Yeah, but you are giving me confirmation. I'm sorry. You got excited. I'm, I, you're, you're giving me confirmation about things that I've been told by people. Like, for instance, one of the biggest things that I've learned this in the last like five years is my child has been leading the way. Like my inner child, the whimsical, curious, let's run, let's run head first. I want to help everybody. I want to save the world. She was leading the charge

and she was dragging Lizzo behind her. You know what I mean? And it was fun, but that's dangerous. You know? And I've gotten some advice from certain people who are just like, you need to protect your inner child. And Lizzo needs to come in the front and stand in front of baby Melissa and protect her. But don't let her go away because the world is trying to destroy my inner child and, you know, make her run away. But like she still needs to be there. Like you said, you're like, that person, that girl who was figuring herself out and figuring out what she liked about herself, you need to marry that with who you are now, the girl who, who, who, who, achieved it all. And I think that that's like a really, it's like a more succinct way. And that's a way

that I can actually really apply because I'm like, protect my inner child. Okay, let me get the AK-47. Yeah. Right. Because it's like, you fuck with baby Melissa. You know what I'm saying? But like the way you said it, it's like I can, I can achieve great things. And like the one thing that I'm really, I mean, not the one thing. I'm going to leave with a lot of things. But you said like, you don't have to win. You just do. You know what I'm saying? I've already won.

This is just what I do. You don't need the win. You are a winner. But everyone loves to see when an athlete dunks the basketball. When, you know, when that figure skater nails that performance or win that, you know, when elite talented people do things that we can't do. Yeah. It's amazing to watch.

It is. And that is actually what you're supposed to do. It's just being able to recognize that you are good enough without doing it. And then, you know what I mean? That's crazy. And then I think also what everyone listening should take away is from your experience, from my experience, we're the same. We're all humans trying to figure out how to live and be in our bodies. Right?

and then take care of those bodies. Yeah. So we live a long time. We have a happy life. And we don't, you know, everyone's like, I want to be the next, this person. I'm like, well, that person died at a young age. I don't know if you want to be that person. Do you know what I mean?

Like when we talk about, be the next you. Exactly. Right. Whereas like, isn't there a version of you having a really incredible storied? career where you did a bunch of things and you're happy you did them. You're not looking back bitter and you feel like proud of yourself and that that little girl. And then you also like where you're at. Yeah. And where you're like yeah, like it did pretty good. Yeah. I feel I can still taste things and I can still see things and appreciate them and I can still have these conversations with people and

I'm not just a shell of a person because I've, you know what I mean? Personal growth isn't because we're not good enough. It's because we should. Wait, elaborate. So, like, I don't need to grow because I wasn't good enough. I need to grow because I should grow. Oh, wow.

I don't think, I don't think the people are ready for that conversation. So I don't tell people that, I don't tell people you should go to therapy because you're broken. Yeah. No, like, you're injured. You didn't choose to be injured.

You got injured. Like, none of us, the first 18 years of your life, you get injured. That's the process. And then the next 70 years, however long you live, God willing, you spend healing those injuries and hopefully you do it quicker than later, right? Because you didn't choose to be injured.

You didn't choose for, like, when you're little, you don't choose to be the programming you receive from God bless all the adults. But most of, you know, where I was from, most people didn't have, there was a lot of hopelessness and there was a lot of, that's just the way things are. I didn't know what they was doing. I look back now and I'm like, oh, my God, my parents were kids. They were kids. My mom had me at 23.

Yeah. Like, Jesus, she had three kids at 23, honey. Like, man, this is, this is heavy shit right now. I'm trying to, like, wrap my mind around. I'm like, is this why? Please, this is not my quote, but it's making me ponder. Like, when everyone says, why do good things, why do bad things happen to good people? And it's like, but what is a bad thing?

Well, that's, that's a good question. is how do we see it? Yeah. And is that what motivates growth? Is that what's pushing people to grow? You know what I learned to do? Is I go, I don't know if this is good or bad. I'm going to decide later.

I think it might be good. Right? That's what I say about bad things. And then good things, I go, I think this might be good. Yeah. I'll decide later, right? Yeah. And then usually I find out later why this happened to me.

Wow. Yeah. Honestly, I do kind of sometimes I feel like something's wrong with me because like when I'm going through it and it's like absolute darkness and I'm crying, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be so much better after this moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm on, I'm at the rock bottom. The only way is up. And I know that that feels like advice that someone gives you while you're going through it. And it's like this is bullshit. But I swear every single time I'm like, oh. I'm fin of spin this in the gold. This is about to be, or platinum or diamond. It's about to get spun. You have gold, platinum, and diamond in your repertoire. No, literally in all of my songs.

Yes, you do. Are from when I was, man, truth hurts. I was crying in the studio when I wrote that song. It's a diamond record, and it is the longest number one in the Guinness World Book of Records of a female rap solo song. And I was crying. trying to get through it. Everything.

This album, my new album, bitch, I'm trying to get through it. Is your new album called bitch? Oh my God. Yeah. I love that. Bitch.

Yeah. It's my favorite word. My wife loves that word. Oh my God. It's like the best word because it has, it's so multifaceted. Yeah. It can mean anything.

It can mean a lot of things. It's like bitch. It can be good. It can be bad. Or bitch. Yeah. Or bitch. Yeah.

Um, um, it's incredible. But like, It's like music has saved my life time and time and time again. It always will. Because I can channel whatever I'm going through into something beautiful. And that's what this album and every album I've ever done is. And I can recognize it while I'm in it.

Even though it doesn't feel good. When I'm in it, I'm like, okay, all right, time to get to work. Because this ain't, this ain't it. And this can't be forever. And sometimes when you're in the, when you're really in a dark place, and you're really depressed, it feels like it's going to be forever. I'm like, oh, this is the rest of my life. But you can't get stuck in a moment.

Yeah. You go to sleep, you wake up, you still feel like shit. And you go through the day and you go to sleep and you wake up and you might still feel like shit, but a little less and you go to sleep and you wake up and it's a little less and it's a little less. And then one day you're like, I'm so happy. Yeah. For me, it took three years. Wow.

But I'm so happy. Have you ever had another three years like that? Yes. Okay. How many times in your life would you say you've had that three years? Twice. Twice. Okay.

So could you ever, could you see a pattern there? Yes. Okay. I think so. Interesting. I think there was a pattern. I think it's when the rug is swept from beneath me. It's a disappointment thing.

I'm like, whoa. Like, I am extremely disappointed by and let down, but it's always when, this is going to get heavy and I'm not going to cry. But it's when someone who I thought was always going to be there isn't there anymore. Right. Is there any other relationship in your life that is like that from when you were younger? Were there any abandonment? Yes.

Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. I had that too. Yeah. So that's interesting because abandonment is a real injury. Yes. And then we can get triggered by less important abandonment.

Mm-hmm. You know, like if you really like zoom out and you look at the size of the abandonment. So with me, it was my dad. He left when I was young. Then we were estranged for a long time. And then I was very angry and bitter. And then I got abandoned a few more times. But now I look at it and I go, well, that abandonment wasn't quite as significant.

Even though it destroyed me at the time. Yeah. I realized it wasn't as heavy as the first one. Yeah. The first one was the one. So then I realized if I went back and really healed that one, the other ones were less and less and less. Yeah. And then now it would be very hard to abandon me.

I was going to say the same thing, cheap. Because it happened to me, it was my dad too. My dad, but my dad passed away. Oh, I'm sorry. When I was like 19. Very hard to. It was devastating. I'm sorry.

It was like the reason why I was doing music. It was everything and it was just like just took away my joy, the light of my life. I didn't want to live anymore. It was like really hard because I also was just. like going, I was, didn't have anywhere to live. I didn't, it was, it was rough. I was like sleeping on people's floors and stuff and sleeping in like roach infested like studios and that's like deep loss. Yeah. After that, baby, can't nobody abandon me more at a more vulnerable time than then. And now, and then you know, it's heartbreaking, but now when I had my second, when that,

when it happened again, I'm actually grateful throughout my life. I was like, oh, Bye bitch. Please. And it was like, but it was someone who was irreplaceable to me. Right. But now it's like, but you were also making my water stagnant. You're giving them a lot of credit. Really?

I think so. My man would say the same thing. I would say, I would say I would differentiate too. The loss of your father was loss. Yeah. Was an abandonment. It was loss. Okay, this is officially therapy.

Someone exposing their true nature to you through the lack of integrity or whatever you want to say. You know, you could look at it a bunch of different ways and it all comes back to someone showing you who they are, right? Yeah. That's what those relationship, the breakdown of a relationship, whether it's a friendship or work or a romantic relationship. Loss is different than abandonment. Yeah. It's crazy because I was telling myself that because I was like, I have a fear of abandonment and it stems from losing my dad. Yeah.

So that's been my whole personality. I'm just kidding. That's, it's been mine. No, but that's, that's kind of, right. I'm great at parties, vanity fair. But that's kind of been like my whole logic behind why I have a fear of abandonment this whole time. Because it did. Okay.

It did feel like abandonment, but I also have to, this is something I'm going to be chewing on for a very long time. It's a very tough piece of meat to chew on is like that it was lost. Yeah. It wasn't abandonment. Yeah, it was law. It's going to, right. I mean, I'm sure if you had the choice, he'd be here now. Absolutely.

At the Grammy's with me. Yeah, that's right. And he's there with you in some way, shape, or form. I have a great spiritual relationship, you know, with my. ancestors and with my dad everything so you're very like spiritual I look at it as transcendence yes like the thing that's greater than all of it it's because I know that there's more to what we perceive yeah I've experienced it very casually and I grew up in it I grew up in the church of God in Christ so that's the Cogic Baptist Church okay I was in the church of God as well oh okay

my whole life. So that's like, you know, you catch the spirit, people speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues. Yeah. Yep. All that. So I grew up with that just as a baseline. Right.

Everything else after that is like, oh, okay, cute. Like, I've had supernatural experiences where I've had, you know, people show up in my dreams. I've had being awake and people touching my shoulder whispering in my ear and nobody's there. Yeah. You know, I'm not making. this stuff up. So I'm like, what is this? I've met people who are mediums who can tell me things about myself, they shouldn't know, you know? So what is fueling all of that? It ain't a thesaurus or a dictionary. It ain't TMZ. You know what I'm saying? It's something beyond all of this. And I think

when you're, when you just know there's something beyond all of this, you transcend. You transcend the material world. Yeah. Material world. Yeah. It is nice. It is. Hey, the material world is fab. I like some stuff. Baby, I love Chanel. I got on Chanel earrings right now. Hello, I did this just for you because I was like, I know it's going to be like, I'm like. I almost wore black diamonds today.

You should have. For you. That would have been hard. But I was like, Tim and Nicole was like, is this too much? She was like, never too much. Take it if you want. I was like, nah. Black diamonds.

Yeah, no, that would have been hard. I like black diamonds. Yeah. I need to get into that. What is that? It's a diamond as black. Real black diamonds. Shut up.

Yeah, they're my favorite. I didn't know that. All the diamonds I have are all black diamonds. Oh my God. Yeah. I'm a black diamond. You are a black diamond. But yeah, I'm super into.

Are you super spiritual? But we're very, we're very, um, okay. So my experience in the church of God was we were raised in a really religious house. So, oh, wow. We weren't allowed to do anything. We weren't allowed to do anything. We weren't a lot. to listen to secular music.

Yes. Can't cuss. Can't listen to secular music. Can't go to the movies. Can't go to baseball games. Can't wear pants. Everything's bad. Yep.

You know? Well, I could wear pants. Yeah. I was wearing dresses and skirts. So I found my own. I went the long way around. And I found my own relationship with it. What I believe in is love and compassion.

Yeah. So I feel like I landed in a good place. Yes. And you have a channel. You have a strong channel to get to that. But I do believe that so mediums, I believe they're intuitive people that see patterns that we can't see the way that like say you as a talented artist can hear things that the rest of us can't hear. The way a painter can see colors the way we can't. The way an astrologer could see or a mathematician can see numbers.

Yeah. Like there's everything. I really believe that like God created like this divine, massive, complex, inner connected system and that we all see different parts of it. Yeah. And that the mediums are just seeing through to other parts that we can't. So they may have an intuition on the future because the past, the present,

in the future are all real. They all exist. Even though you haven't been there yet. Yes. It's there. It's happening. And future you is there happening right now. And the same way that past you is still there.

Wow. In the past. And so sometimes you have to go back to the past to heal some stuff. I've heard stories of people comforting themselves from the future. Yeah. And being like, they were like when I was a kid and I got sent to my room and I was crying. And I had this like this imaginary friend or something happened where somebody put their arms around me and comforted me.

And then like years later, they'll be like, I was doing spiritual work and I went back and I hugged my inner child when that moment happened and realizing that was you, it's almost like Harry Potter realizing that he was the patroness. Yeah. Remember he was like, wait a minute, I thought the stag was his daddy, but it wasn't baby, your daddy. Yeah. You lost me on Harry Potter?

You love Harry Potter? No, I don't. Oh, I lost you on Harry Potter. I don't know anything about Harry Potter. Well, we can move forward. But if we look at like the ghost of Christmas past, the ghost of the present, goes to future, there's a thing. It's the same thing. It's the idea that we can reflect on the past and go, well, to go back and say, hey, look, we did, we did okay. We made it and heal that so that it's complete,

so that it doesn't get in the way of the present. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah, a lot of people aren't doing that. Your present life. I'm not doing that. Right? Your, your bias is what you choose to see. Yes. So if I believe the world is bad, I will go out in the world and I'll get all the evidence. Yes. And if I believe the world's good, I'll get all the evidence that it's good. If I believe there's opportunity, there will be opportunity. If I believe that I'm good enough, I'm talented, I can do it. If I go out and try, I probably will, some version of doing it. So I think that part of that is just going back and showing the younger version of myself, hey, hey, look, we did okay. Wow.

We made it. We're good. Yeah. And then sometimes maybe also going forward to comfort the present moment because if you're repeating the worry of the past, whatever you're worried about right now, if you track back a year to the day, you couldn't tell me what you were worried about that day. What's today? Yeah.

I probably could. But like two years, three years. Yeah, five years. However long you could kind of go like, no, this is this. So it's more just like trying to continue to grow and not let the past get in front. And you can like inter, but what you're saying like we're capable of time travel. Yeah. Is what you're really saying.

Yeah. And there is like people who believe that you can, you know, jump around. That's fire. Yeah. I need to do that more because there's something to be said about going to your past self and saying, hey, we're okay. But then your past self, being able to come to your present. himself and be like, holy shit, this is amazing. And then realizing that you're the one who decided

it and imagined it and envisioned it. And then when you get into that work, which is like manifesting, call it whatever you want, there's a couple books that are really good. There's an old, old one that's really interesting called the Master Key System. A really good book. And it really kind of talks about so your solar plexus is your energy and your thoughts are what you're pointing it at. And so what you, this is roughly the idea, right? I'm not nailing it. But if you can learn how to become laser focused in what you think about for the future, for the present, then everything, all your energy gets sharper and sharper and the laser

gets stronger and stronger as you focus on your thoughts. This is interesting because I was just about to ask you like, traversing from the present to the past is easy. I think, well, natural, I think, towards. Because we can lament in the past. We can be like, oh, my gosh. And you can, that communication, you can, you can reminisce on things that have already happened.

And I think reminiscing is lightly, you know, it's the light word, but really we're traveling, you know. It's the future that's a little more difficult. And I think that we everyone, most people, I'm not going to say everyone, but most people, I'm going to speak for myself, I have anxiety, right?

Mm-hmm. How does it act out? Well, it started off just, did you just kick me? He's like, uh-oh. And my anxiety started off with just kind of like, uh, okay, I'm trying to, I'm trying to really nail it for you. It was thoughts first. Right. But when did you start noticing like what party, like what age did you notice, did it appear? This is, it's a lot to unpack here. But the first time something happened where I was like, oh, this is not normal.

I remember I was, I had just dropped out of college. And I felt like a huge failure. And I went to go stay with my mom in Colorado. And it was a summer. Well, it was like when I was deciding to drop out of college, I stopped talking. Like, I stopped speaking. Oh, wow. It was really, really strange.

And I would come downstairs for breakfast. Everybody would be at the table. They'd ask me how I'm doing nothing. And that was a really strange time in my life. Like, why couldn't I speak? Like, what's wrong with me? And so it manifested in things like that. I was shut down.

And I didn't realize that that was anxiety or stress or whatever at the time. I just was like, I'm weird. I was shut down. And I would just be nonverbal for a very long time. And- Withdrawn. withdrawn. That's a better word. I would be withdraw. I would withdraw and I wouldn't speak. And I couldn't like connect. I couldn't look at people. And then I think I was I was I started to go to therapy. I started to identify that that's anxiety. And I think while I was seeing this therapist, I started to become a famous person. I was with I've been with her since before I had a hit song. and she was with me throughout the whole process.

She had to tell me that I had to mourn a part of myself with the fame, like the part of yourself that can just go anywhere you want is gone. Just mourn that. And then I got to a point where I was like, okay, this is anxiety, cool. All right, girl. Then one day when I was at like the biggest, how do I say this without being?

It's a safe space. It's a safe space. Okay. No one's going to receive this in any critical way. So I get it because I'm like, how can I say this that any person listening would, I sound like I'm out of touch, but I'm not. I'm trying to share my experience. So you're just sharing your experience.

I had a huge scandal about me. And it was so earth shattering and rug pulling to you, to me. And I felt like everyone on planet Earth hated me. And I remember I flew in to LAX and I felt like everybody was looking at me. And everybody was like judging me and everyone hated me. And I got in the car and I like couldn't breathe in the car. I was like struggling to breathe and I was like what's happening to me? And I was like it was like not enough air and I felt like somebody was pressing on my chest and I was like, oh no, like this is this is different.

I've had, you know, anxiety in the past where I can control it because I'm like, this is anxiety. You're not going to die. Everything's okay. But this time your, my body was like, this is it. And I, this is the one. Literally, and I got to the house and I couldn't use my legs anymore. And I remember I was my legs were like shaking and I got to my bed and I fell on my knees and I just started like weeping and I was like, what is happening to me? And my anxiety had like evolved into full-blown panic. And so now I have these panic attacks. That's where it really kicked off from that point to now you've been having these panic attacks. That's interesting. So it was the moment, okay, do you want to hear what I think? What do you think?

So I want to just, I want you to take something and think about it. So your big scandal, whatever that was, I noticed it. I just want to give you the real, the average person, right? So, so that you will relieve you a little bit. I know it feels like the world's ending, but I noticed it and went, huh, okay. Hey, hon, do you want Domino's or Papa Johns? Yes. None.

Can you get John and thenies? Perfect. Do you understand? Yes. Your big life ending, life altering scandal. I'm just saying no one fucking just know that when you think the thing that this is the problem with when we think we hit a lottery or we got lucky or like no no no no you earned all this and with it comes some stuff yeah because we're humans and whatever i don't know i fucking blah blah blah but you are

you are not a bad person you're a good person and you're a talented person and you work very hard thank you and so you're going to have moments where the world it looks like they're winning it looks like the bad guys winning and they're not winning. Yeah. And you have a moment. And so what I would encourage you to do is your worst fear, whatever it is, because I have to do this. Play it out.

Okay. Then what? Okay. Then I lose everything. Okay. What is that? What is lose everything? Well, okay.

And then if I go through it and I go, well, then I, then this happens. I lose everything. Okay. Well, what does that sound like? I'm like, I don't know. No, really, let's stop. What does lose everything? I guess I lose all my money.

I don't know. like, okay, are you married? I'm like, yeah, no, my wife would stay with me. Did she lose all her money? I'm like, what about your kids? I'm like, okay, this, losing everything, they don't really shake out when I try to explain it. Okay, get that out of the way.

That's not going to happen. So what, okay, everyone hates me. Okay, explain me. What does everyone hate you mean? Well, I don't know. I go places and people, do they throw eggs at you? I'm like, no, I don't know. It's just when I'm there, they treat me weird.

And it's like, I'm just saying, if we walk through the worst. Yeah. But you literally just answered the question that I didn't even ask yet, which is how do you interact with your future self? How do you time travel to the future? That's it. You play it out. Go as detailed as you want or as broad as you want. I don't care.

But get there and see does that, how bad is it? And then make yourself stop on every detail of what that means. So what is, okay, everyone hates me. Okay, what does that mean? Well, let's try to walk through a day where every. Everyone hates us. And so if you play it out, the reality is the internet's going to be the internet. Yeah.

People are going to be sitting on their toilets for years to come. That's the other thing is when you read that awful comment, I'm like, wait a minute, there should be a disclaimer for every comment to say where you are and what you're doing when you write it. So if I was writing my comment, I'd be like, I'm laying in bed right now. This is the first thing I've done this morning. I'm scrolling internet. I'm scrolling internet. Now here's my comment. You suck.

Yeah. Right? So it hits a little different when you. Yeah, it does. Anything that you could go through in life is just sharpening your edges. You got to keep going forward in. I know you are because this new music is incredible. Thank you.

And the new song is to me, it's like I was listening to it today with my brother because we rode together. And it's timeless. It feels like you nailed, it feels like it could be 30 years ago or it could be now. Yeah, 30 years from now. Or 30 years from now, but it's timeless. Thank you. I appreciate everything you've just said to me. I really needed to feel that and hear that because, and I'm real, I'm having moments of

realization where I'm like, wait, I play it out, but I think that I don't play it out as realistically as you're putting it, but one thing that has gotten me through the rough patch of my life, the second rough patch of my life. I do a lot of like mirror work. Like I look in the mirror and I didn't look this up. This was just innately. I just do this and I'll be like, you're going to have an amazing day. You know, you're an incredible artist. Yeah. Everybody loves you. You know, nothing is wrong. You know, like you love who you are. You love where you are. And I like say it to myself and I'm realizing, okay, I'm interacting with the future. Oh, yeah.

And then I look back and I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like, everything you said happened. Yeah. But if you wake up and you're like, it's over or everyone hates me and you just stay there, that's where you're going to be. That's where you're going to be. And I can talk to you about this because I am a little bit out of the trenches. You know, I am. But, you know, if we've had this conversation even a year or a half ago, I would have probably broken down and cried like five times already.

Yeah, but here you are. But here we are. And it's fantastic. Yeah. I'm just saying when you work and you build and you gain with all the gains comes some losses. Yeah. You get some money, you're going to lose some money.

You get some fame, you're going to lose some fame. Yeah. You get some intention. It's par for the course and it plays out different for everybody. But that's what they say double ed short, whatever. But I'm just saying, I think, And I go back to the new music because it really feels like you've captured right now with, I was very happy when I heard it.

It feels very power. Yeah. It was like you're in your shit. Like, oh my gosh, bag. Yeah. Birken bag. Yeah. Deep.

Don't make me love you is very much that. You know, like it's not about romance at all. No, yeah. It's like, you know, don't make me love you. Don't make my heart be out of my chest. and don't make me want you if you just want someone else. Don't bullshit me. If this ain't it, tell me tonight.

Don't make me walk through that door because I've been there before. If you're just going to change your mind, don't waste my time. I can easily be singing that about fame, to fame. You know what I mean? I could be singing that to success. I could be singing that to the public, to, you know, a boyfriend, to anybody, you know. And that is what empowers me when I sing that song, because I know that it can apply in so many different areas.

And at the end of the song, it's like, don't waste my time, because I'm going to choose me every single time. Even though it's like, don't make me love you. It's like this kind of like, it's a little vulnerable for a Lizzo song. You know, it's a big word for Elmo. But I empower it by being like, hey, don't waste my fucking time. I want this, you know. But if you don't want this, I'm not going to chase after it.

it's not going to break my heart. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think like, and then like bitch is like, my favorite song because I just got to say so many deeply satisfying things. Like I said if I lost some followers, it's not a loss because I ain't lost sleep since I slept in my car. Like,

you don't know what it's like to be sleeping in your car on Thanksgiving day. Thanksgiving night at a gas station. That's crazy. Trying to blend in with the other broken down car so nobody fuck with you crying. Yeah. when people you know are down the street having dinner but you can't go over there like they don't know that life no they don't know that I went through that you know so I'm just like yeah like this I can survive this we'll be all right you don't know what the fuck I've survived and that's why

bitch to me is so it's like my favorite song on an album and that's why I named the album bitch it's a great album name thank you it's gonna you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be a little censored some It's in some places, but you know what it is what it is. You got to have your moments. Yeah. I can't compromise. And I think that like there was, you said something earlier to, none of these people around me today were shooting with me in the gym back when I was in the fifth grade. No, you were alone.

I was on my own. And then the girls that I started that girl group with in the fifth grade, they're not with me. And then when I was in my rock band, they're not with me. And then when I was in Minneapolis, those people aren't with me anymore. And it's like, who has been the common denominator? So why at this point, at my big age, when I look around at the people around me and have them make decisions for me, they haven't gotten me here. You know, I did that a few years ago. I had lost so much confidence in myself and in my choices that I was like, you guys know better than me.

And I let a lot of people tell me, no, don't do that. You can't do this. Don't do this. And I felt, and I listened to them. and I put myself in a little cage and I kind of sabotaged myself a little bit. And I think I had to learn how to trust my instincts again and to play in the sandbox again and to show my work and be like, look, it's a sandcastle. I made it.

You know, it might be ugly to you, but I made it and this is cool to me. And I think that's what this album is. This is my little sandcastle. First of all, we all have that moment. We all have those moments where we get spun. And then we're looking for guidance. We're looking for the people who tell us and encourage us to be ourselves. The person who says, I don't know, how do you feel?

When I just asked them, what do you think? I don't know what I should do. I'm scared. And they're like, well, how do you feel? The people that nurture us to trust our instincts are the real ones. Them the ones that would be pissing me off the most. And I had to learn. I had to learn how to stop being annoyed by that.

because I'd be like, well, what do you think about this? And I'd be like, how do you feel about it? And I'm like, just tell me it's good or bad. Yeah. Well, I think. But you're right. Do you feel like you're like ready now to go out into the world and promote this album? Yeah.

That's great. That's a good feeling. Oh, man. Let me tell you, Sonti. When I did the Blue Note shows, that was the beginning of the, like, confidence, high. that I'm on right now. Like being able to be in these like small jazz clubs where like the people are literally eating right under your feet

and sing a song that makes people, that moves people. And they're like, if you could tell me I can sing, if I'm a good singer at the blue note, I'm a good singer anywhere. Yeah, that's right. And then I got to play. It's a flex to be able to do that. Yeah.

Those small clubs. You can't hide in that room. No way. You can't fix the vocal. It's not coming out the thing. You can't lip sync. No, it'll be on the internet. You cannot fuck up those little shows.

No. That's for real. That's real. That's, you have, the chops have to be there. And then I got to play flute in a way that I've never done before. Like, you know, I incorporate the flute in my shows, but arena shows, you know, everything's on a grid. Everything's on a, so I can't really be like, stop the music. And it's not as intimate.

So like the fruit moments in an arena, they don't quite hit like in a jazz club. You got to give them a trill and a twerk. Right. And then they'll go, woo! And it's done. But in the blue note, I got to play like watermelon man by Herbie Hancock in the Carnival of Venice. And I was going in like the Badneur by Johan Shabastienbach. And people were just like, wait, what?

And you know when you're good at, you know when you've been doing something for so long? You don't even realize it's like a thing. I've been good at the flute since the eighth grade. So to me, I'll be like, oh, I messed up. This is embarrassing. And people are like, No, it's like a magic trick. They don't imagine. The people can't believe during all. And I'm like, really? No, it's like a magic trick. When you can play an instrument well, it's like a magic trick for the rest of us.

And I had to like learn like, hey, you know, you're a good ass musician girl. Like, and I was sleeping on myself. That's crazy. That's a gag. You know, because I was just like, oh, the flute is like a novel thing. I'm not very good at it. because I know there are other flu players in the world who are just like insane. And I think the insecurity came from not playing for so long. And I feel like my muscle wasn't flexed. But then like challenging myself by like re-learning things that I played in like the eighth grade or like learning new things on like I.E. Watermelon Man.

And take five. I was like, oh, wait, I'm actually still good. The muscle is still strong. I'm Arnold Schwarzenegger with this flute shit. Yeah. And so that just. like reignited my confidence in myself as a musician as an artist as a woman as a musician as a person like i just all my confidence levels are dialed up you really made the flute like

happen again it's been a while i but the flute wasn't really like culturally like you made it a thing yeah like that's a big accomplishment to be honest with you yeah and i didn't think that this was happening but there's so many like young kids who are like, I'm going to play the flute next year. And like, and I didn't even think it was cool. And then like my friends kids will be like, next year I'm going to play the flute. When I'm in the fifth grade, I'm playing the flute. Or like, I got the flute. And I'm like, wait, you know, what?

I thought people would look at me and be like band nerd, you know, because that was my experience in eighth grade in seventh grade in high school. But like, whatever I've done with it, it made Rihanna stand up. That's right. Give me a standing ovation. It's very impressive. It is a standout. And I'm saying like it is definitely something that like I said,

for the rest of us, it's like a magic trick. And I want to turn that magic into like inspiration. Yeah. And I have like this picture book that I'm coming out with. Oh yeah. What is that? Little Lizzo meets Sasha be fluting.

And it's so cute. It's like baby me. Yeah. And it's like I don't want to give it all. away because it comes out in the fall. But she meets Sasha B. Fluting, who's a flute, who can't, who can't make a sound. And she doesn't have any friends. And so they go on this like journey together to like find out how to make a sound and find

their voice. And I'm so excited for it because it is the, that is the manifestation of like a little girl coming up to me and being like, I'm playing flute because of you. And I was like, how can I inspire more people to want to like pick up it, pick up an instrument or like nerd out on something, have a hobby like that you're excited about that's not connected to your phone, you know? Yeah.

Because that's so, it's, I don't know why, but it's just like, it's so important to me right now that like young people have something physical in this world that they can like expand their minds and their imagination with because I do feel like there is some sort of like, I don't want to call it an agenda,

but I do feel like there's an attack on imagination right now. Yeah, yeah. imagination killers, like reading books and playing instruments and just using your imagination. And doing things that aren't on your phone. Yeah. It's pretty bad. It's so bad. And it scares me because I'm like, I can't imagine a world without my imagination. Like I used to imagine things when I was a kid. I would prop up my son. So cheesy, but I would prop up my bears and pretend I was performing for them or pretend I was winning an award and holding up a little thing, a shampoo bottle. Like, my imagination is vivid, honey.

Like, I maladaptive daydream. We're sitting in it. Yeah. Dave Chappelle said that. He on stage, like, I just performed at his club. And he went on stage and he was like, I'm in your dream right now. And I was like, that's crazy. That's what I think every time I talk to someone here is I'm sitting in the life they imagined getting to ask them about that life.

Oh, I already 20 minutes ago was like, this is so fucking cool. I can't wait to tell my boyfriend. Yeah. You know, I am excited to see you on that, on that next big stage on the Grammys or the Oscars or wherever it is, you end up with this album and this next chapter. I know I'm going to see it. I know I'm going to be sitting at home and I'll be like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. You know what I mean? I can see it. And I think that you're ready for it. And I think, I mean, obviously, you know you're ready for it because you wouldn't finish the album until you're ready. but the music is incredible. It's got like, gosh, it's hard to explain, but it's got such a classic timeless feeling for a modern piece of music.

There's like some Tina Turner in there. There's a bunch of other stuff in there where I'm like, damn, this is really got, it calls to timeless. And I can't wait to hear the record. But I'm excited to see what the next couple years look like. It would be fun to watch. Thank you. I mean, this is my, you know, I'm out of the shadow valley and I'm back on my journey. And it's, I love the journey. I really do. I don't take it for granted. No parts of it.

Even at my, even in the darkest of the shadows, I appreciate everything because, you know, I love my life and I love, I love living. I really do enjoy every moment of living from someone who had moments where I didn't want to live anymore. I enjoy being here so much in everything that comes with it, you know, and making this music. And whether it takes me to the Grammys or the Oscars, or it just takes me on a really fun fucking world tour where I get to sing to 20,000 people every night. When's the tour? The fall. Okay.

So the tour is going to happen. Oh, tour's happening. Oh, that's great. And one thing about me, honey, people want to come to a Lizzo show. Those are good. I found out. I was like, wait a minute, 70,000 people. people in Houston.

Let's go. Let's go. Okay. Then I'm good. Tour's going to be all right. Yeah. One thing about me, you're going to come to a Lizzo show because you never know what you're going to get, but you know you're going to get something good. Yeah, you love life. Oh, my God.

I live life. Yeah, you live for it. That's, that's, I am a performer. A performing artist. It's a real artist. Yeah. Like, there's recording artists. There's performing artist, baby.

Put me on the stage. Yeah. Expeditiously. Yeah. Yes. Well, thank you for coming. Oh my God. That's the end. Thank you for your time. Oh, my God. This was so fun. This is great.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Artist Friendly. You can also watch the episodes on Spotify. Spotify premium users get no commercial breaks on my show. Make sure to follow, like, and comment because I always read the comments.