Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - M. Shadows of Avenged Sevenfold

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

Acclaimed frontman M. Shadows of Avenged Sevenfold joins Joel Madden for an in-depth conversation -- an exclusive Artist Friendly and Alternative Press collaboration featured on the cover of AP's 2023 summer issue. Avenged Sevenfold have been busy gearing up for the release of their long-awaited eighth studio album, Life Is But A Dream…, as well as a massive summer tour across North America. Listen as the duo discuss the creation of the band’s latest release, leading to a deep-dive into their own spiritual philosophies and the freedom of expression. Shadows also explores into the wider meaning behind the single "Nobody" and how it was born from experimenting with DMT.  ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? This is artist friendly. I'm Joel Madden. And today I'm speaking with M Shadows from Avenge Sevenfold. All right, Matt. Am I in there? Can you hear me? Yeah.

All right. Oh, my God. I don't even know where to start. This is funny because we're actually really good friends. So like it's just like a conversation. Yeah. It's kind of, yeah. It's good though because I feel like a lot of people and sort of,

Certainly, like, people listening to this are, like, music, most of them anyways, I feel like are music fans. So they know whether they know my band or they know your band. I don't think people always get, what are bands doing, like bands hanging out and talking? Sometimes it would be hard to imagine, avenge sevenfold and Good Charlotte hanging out. Even though we did a song together, and so it does, you might suspect it. I do think that, like, people don't always get to see, like, don't get to hear or, like, listen to conversations that musicians are having, whether they're a fan of us both or they're just a

fan of you or just a fan of me. I think it's cool when people get to like listen in on what the shit we probably talk about every time we talk anyways. So yeah. And there's a lot of bands that people probably think we're really good friends with and we don't talk to at all. Yeah. Right. Oh, do you hang out with those guys? Like no. You must be best friends because you sound the like. You went on six tours with them. Did you? I never met those guys. Yeah. There's some weird thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. That's the reality. That's the reality. And a lot of your friends would, like, we've never toured together. Yeah. But we'll have to tour together. No. Well, and we did, but we did some warp tour.

We did work tour. We did work tour. That counts. That counts. Yeah, that counts. Okay. So I was just talking about you guys. And before we get to the new record, which I think is your best record.

Thank you. I'm going to say that. Because you'll say, yeah, but you always think. your new record's your best record so i don't know if it's my best record i think it's your best record i think it's artistically uh modern ambitious still has every avenged thing that i want to hear all the avenged sevenfold it has it but it also has like this fucking weird crazy modern sound that i i've no idea how you guys did that uh so before we get to the new record Avenge Sevenfold, to me, it's one of the few bands that is not dated right now.

But you come from 20 years ago, right? Yeah. And you live in 2023 and you go on tour and all I see is a big, huge rock band that's still putting out modern records, still has a super kind of, what's the word, super vibrant, excited fan base. Yeah. And when you look behind the curtain, you're still just the same guys that are like making records they want to make

and going on tour. Yeah. I feel some of that. I also feel sometimes, and I try not to like kind of get stuck on the negative, but there are people and, parts of the fan base that really want one era of the band. Yeah.

And I feel like if you listen to those people, and I also think there's a lot of people that didn't necessarily like the band in those eras. And if you look at both of those kind of opinions, both of those date the band in a way that I don't like. Because as humans, we're moving forward, we're growing, we're trying new things, we're trying new technologies, we're also writing with a kind of a modern sensibility. the things we're pulling from are very modern things. And so that gets a little, it gets a little, it feels cheap a little bit when someone wants

you to be something you were when you were 20 or someone doesn't like you because of an opinion they had of you when you were 20. And those are hard things to break and you just kind of got to be grateful for what you have and then just continue to like walk the walk, I guess. And then you'll make people believers or they won't. And like everything we do is not for everyone, right? and that's okay. But when you are a band for 23 years or whatever it is, 22 years,

like you're going to have such a wide, vast group of opinions on you. Yeah. And usually it's rooted in one sort of era. Right. And they think of you as that. And it's really hard to get people that kind of follow along because it's so easy to fall off. And as you get older, which I've, only because I'm a musician, I kind of cognizant of this. Right.

But as you get older, there's some. certain records you're going to pick up in your life from bands you love and certain records are not because of life. You have kids, you have different priorities. They're listening to music. You're hearing stuff from their TikTok. You're hearing like you're like now there's like Fortnite and you're hearing all these different things and you're and so life's just different. And it takes a lot for a band to kind of stay front of mind for a lot of people. Yeah. Because we just we have so many. The time economy is so crazy now with with all the things you can do besides follow a band.

Yeah, all the apps. All the apps. And also all the music, right? It's too confusing now. And there's been studies done on this in terms of like humans and choices. And most humans would rather have a choice of four pieces of candy

than 500 pieces of candy. Yeah. It's too much. And what the good thing about the radio and what people complained about, but the good thing about radio and MTV was it really was curating things and kind of bringing the best stuff to the front.

And if it didn't work, it quickly fell off. But if it did work, it was because people were being, you know, exposed to so many things. And I think people would do well with getting exposed to more now, meaning we're going to show you these things and you're going to have to hear them a few times in the radio. But right now it's just you have everything at your fingertips. And it's just too hard to navigate. This is very hard.

So you put all those things against it and you've got to stay above it all and just go, okay, we're just going to write what we want. We're going to do the art we want to do. We're going to put these things out. we're going to just kind of move forward and just see where it goes. I think it's exciting. I'm one of those guys that's excited about the future. Yeah. There's a lot of people that are just super, you know, they'll go like, oh, there used to be CD sales or the tickets used to be this. And it's like, I'm like, this is awesome. It's almost like, it's almost like there's no rules right now.

And you can do whatever you want. And yeah, you're not going to, you're not going to get traction on everything. In fact, you're probably not going to hit traction on much. But that's okay. Like, keep trying. things and doing things and it gives you a lot of freedom in my opinion. It's funny because I look at your band as like you guys could make, I mean, you could give a class on it. You could write a book on it. I mean, to start off in one era and go through a career and come to a point where as a fan and as someone that kind of like studies bands all the time and just watches people's careers.

I think you guys have, it feels to me like you just make decisions, you stick to your guns, you put the music out, you do your, you do your, you know, you execute your vision. And yeah, I just look at your band and you're one of those few that I go, they have navigated time. I mean, we say old because we got all got started so young. We're not that old. No, yeah. But in band years, we're old. Yes.

Right? Like, if you look at it in band years, it's just like, especially now, things move so fast. But it feels like you guys represent a kind of music and you push the, I think, I think what's interesting about a Venn sevenfold is you guys push the boundaries of what it means to be like a metal rock band, like a heavy rock and roll band. because you could say, oh, they're metal, or you could just say they're a rock and roll band. But then you listen to the catalog and you go, oh, that's just a big fucking rock band. And there's a lot of metal going on, but then there's songs.

And it's interesting because when you think about the genre you came from, I mean, when I think about you guys and go, how the hell did a band that was essentially like an Orange County hardcore band almost starting out, go to the level that you're at. 100% it's art and its imagination and it's decision-making. It's people who have a vision and they execute on it. I think you guys have been up against it every time because every record you're always kind of making a turn and I think you've always been dealing with that.

Each record is special. The fans want that record again and then you're like, no, we're on to this. The new record to me is a defining record, though. I think it's, I listened to it, and I just thought, this is fucking everything I wanted out of an avenged record. All the moments happened that I needed. But then there's new stuff that I'm like, wow, this is a new place for rock and roll to go. It still feels, God, it still feels live. It still feels analog.

It still feels all the things that, you know, I think. you want to see when you're at the live show. I just think that's rare. I think it's very hard for bands to keep their focus and not be scared. Yeah, I think, well, there's a couple of things you touched on there that I wanted to flag. One being imagination, but I'll get back to that. But I think every record, the bigger the band gets, the more that step is scary, right? It's like, because it's like, okay, now we're here.

do we do it again? Yeah. And but you can only, we wouldn't even be able to write those records again, right? They were just in a, they were at the time the step that people didn't want us to take and they were exciting because of that, right? They were like, well, this is what we feel,

this is what we're influenced by, so we're doing this. And then if you try to do it again, it's like... Almost just unconscious. You just were being artistic. Yeah, yeah, just doing it. And then I think for when people ask me about songs, like for me, I always tell people I think it's, imagination. Like, if you can imagine something, that's a bigger influence or a bigger, like,

inspiration to me, songwriting wise than, like, listening to other songs or, like, being like, oh, we're going to write a song. But, like, if you think of a moment or a vibe or, like, see a piece of art or you're watching a movie or something just really sticks out to you, you want to, like, capture that in audio form somehow. And that's when you get these crazy sort of transitions or key changes or weirdness or overall like kind of something moving forward. So, but to me it's imagination. You got to imagine something drastic happening or you're just going to be in a box and you're writing, you know, that's just going to be, here's my tools and here's what I can use.

And but it's got to be pulled from everywhere. Yeah. You know, I think. And then one thing culturally for us, it's like bringing Westin to do the art on this record or using, you know, redefining what it means to do stop motion, like on the nobody video. Not trying to make it look like the 90s, but where is stop motion now? You know, after I saw that new Pinocchio movie, I called it Chris Hopewell and I'm like,

dude, this is like, and he's like, I can do that. Like, and like, let's, let's do. And like, that movie blew my mind. Me too. And I was like, I don't think like if I was, I don't really want to see 41 year old me jump around in a warehouse. Yeah, yeah. I want to do something like, what does this song really represent?

And I think the ideas are so grand that I don't think it's going to be possible with music video budgets nowadays unless we did something like stop motion. It's about being creative and figuring out how you're going to get your vision across. And I think knowing when to cut your losses, like, yeah, let's put all the money into one video and we're done. Right. You know, like instead of chopping into three and then doing little teasers and Facebook and then, you know, it's like you've got to do your own thing and then and live with the consequences. It's okay. Yeah. It literally is okay.

Like, we're all going to fail so many more times than we're going to succeed. And but it's out in the world at that point and let it do what it's going to do. Because if it came from the right spot, then you should have no fear, in my opinion. So, I'mena. And like my music, my hair changes with me and has to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian Professional, has all what my hair needs. Nutrition Profunda, Protection Contrapsed Contral Against Against,

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bar records. Yeah, the results are always just the results at the time. Yes. But we don't

know what the real implication of what we're doing right now is going to be until way

down the road. And we'll find out the true meaning of what we're doing right now later

on. We always do. Yeah. And that's the interesting thing. I think you

that insight over time and having a long career like you've had, which is, it blows my mind to think about like your band. You guys have been through so much. You have this long, really interesting career and you're all still young and cool and with it. It's interesting because you do also meet people that don't evolve and they're not with it. They're kind of stuck somewhere and it's weird. It's like they're stuck in a time where maybe it was like their height of of an era of success or they're stuck in it. And it feels like almost like they don't want to leave that time, which is, and maybe that's my perception. But there is something about doing something for the sake of doing it and leaving the results to be, you know, analyzed later and not

being too caught up on the results, the immediate results. Well, there's that term called, what is it? I think it's called audience capture. And when you're like, the way people describe it is like if you're on Twitter and all you do is talk about politics, right? Say you're you're very right leaning or left leaning. Right. And you talk all day about these things. I'm super right wing, by the way. I know.

I know. I know. But, you know, when you, when your identity is based around one sort of ideal. Yeah. And then you would get all these followers, right? Then it's very hard. It takes a very strong person to get more information and change their mind. When they know that everything they've built.

built up is about this sort of thing. And I think bands do that too. They become audience captured. The audience somehow gets big enough to where you get stuck in the mud. And unless you're willing to just go to war with everyone, including your fans, and just for your ideals. Right. Right. Yeah.

And you have to constantly do it because then there's going to be a bunch of people that love that next thing you did. Right. And then they all want more of that. And then you got to do, you got to push them all. off again and go over here. So you're constantly in this like almost like toxic tug and pull with and toxic is the wrong word. It's kind of like this. It's almost like a good kind of conflict. It's a good push. It's it's the fans pushing you for what they think they want. Yeah. Because of what you did

before. Yeah. And it's you pushing back with like, no, no, trust me. Yeah. This is what you want. And you would have never got that if I didn't push off these people from before. Right. And it's kind of a, the tension is good. It's like there is good tension in creative relationships. And you are kind of in a creative relationship with your fans. You're captivating their imagination. And once you captivate it, their imagination is getting carried away. And it has nothing to do with you.

You inspired them to imagine something about you. And now they're imagining what they think they want. And you're saying, no, I'm imagining a new future. And I want you to come with me. So I think that it's. a good tension that artists have with their fans. And I think another thing I'd say you're really good at and your band is really good at is communicating with them and saying, hey, guys, sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear.

But trust me, this is what we're here to break the bad news. This is what we needed to do. And I don't as a fan want to get a record that the artist doesn't bleed for. I want to feel like they're bleeding for the record. And I feel that on the new record. I feel like you guys are just dying to get out. of some fucking cage or box and do something that you love. And I can feel, I think you nailed it.

And I'm a fan. I listen to every record. I have, you know, and, you know, seeing you guys live and, I don't know. It's just you guys are a staple in like one of my go-toes for a certain, you know, for a certain mood. Yep. You know? Same for Nicole.

We have a shared love. of avenged. And then obviously knowing you guys over the years, it's easier to like your music when you get to know you. And that's a really nice thing too when you meet an artist and you're like, oh, it's better now. The music's even better. You know what I mean?

But I think that I think you said something that I think I'm just going to pull out because a lot of times people listening to this show, they're all. kind of traversing their own dreams. And I think everyone in life on whatever level they're at in their personal life, it could be their mental health, it could be their physical health, it could be their dream job or their band or whatever they're working on. What I think the world and the music business does is overcomplicates the simplicity of what art is.

When you make art that you love or when you make something you love, that should be the first thing you're focused on. And then the commerce of it all and all the rest of it gets figured out if you love the art and you believe in the brand you're building. And I think that I think people get confused on how to make it in life. Yeah. And I always say like effort over time equals results. Consistent effort over time. And then the results are something.

And then something always leads to something. So maybe it's not the result you're dreaming of. Like, you know, if someone's in a band and they're like, I want to play arenas. Well, okay, slow down. Let's start somewhere. Make the record you love. And then put it out and start playing shows. And if no one will take you on tour, put your own shows together.

Figure out how to solve problems. effort over time consistently. We get results. The results are going to be what they're going to be. Then we put more effort forward. So I think I see a band like you guys do that. And as hard as I'm sure it is when you're in the middle of all of it. From the outside, I see you guys travel through the space pretty simply, very kind of elegantly.

It's like you're always like, whenever I ask, like, hey, how's the record going or whatever? Never feels like you guys don't know what you're doing. It always feels like, yeah, we're making it. It's taking a while or it's whatever. We're in the middle of it. And, you know, the mixing's taking longer than we thought or whatever. But it never feels like you don't know what the fuck you're doing.

Yeah. I think, and another main point of all that is whatever you're doing, just enjoy the journey. Yeah. Because even if you were to be Avenged Sevenfold, we'd love to. play, there's a higher mountain. And then even if you're Metallica, you want to be you too in the Rolling Stones. You're always going to want to climb. There's always something.

And so like, but the lesson there is that that that's not the, the destination never really comes. Yeah, you have to, you have to enjoy what you're doing, whether it's a club, because there's something to be said for small club shows. And when you're coming up, how that's, that could be better or this or that. And so it's, it's really a mindset and like, yeah, putting your mind to it. But. I need to remember that more. I always get caught up on my next destination.

We all do. We all do. But like you just got to sit there and just observe what's really happening. Instead of always looking up, look down and go like, okay, where did I come from? Like this is, life's good. Mindfulness. It's all mindfulness. Yeah.

Not to get, go down that path. But that's what you do those things for. Yeah. Right. That's what you meditate for or you think about these, observe your own thoughts. Like that's what. Do you meditate? Yeah.

Oh, cool. I practiced mindfulness. Right. Or I wouldn't have even come up with that. But like, you know, like, it's like you find yourself in the rat race. And it's continuing to think there's some higher place to be when it just. Like here isn't good enough. I need to get there.

Yeah. Here is good enough. Yeah. It's so good. And one thing about this band that I think ever, that's been great for us recently is that everybody's got the mindset of like, if I'm going to do an interview, I want to be there. If I'm going to, if we're going to be in the studio, we want to be there. Like, don't go in the days that you don't want to go. Like, and that could get out of control.

Like, it's nice to put little, you know, barriers on yourself and go, okay, we're going to get this done. But at the same time, just do things you want to do and really put yourself into it and be happier there. Or just, or go do something else. It's, I think it's like a less is more mentality of like, yeah, you should only do the interviews that you really want to do. and then you're going to 100% you're going to do a better interview. You're going to give more meaningful answers. And you're going to care about, you have to care about being there. And if you don't at that day, you should stay home.

And I think most people don't get the, they don't get the opportunity to live that way because a lot of times I think people get trapped in cycles with maybe jobs they don't really love. It's a means to an end. And they somehow stop caring. about some major things and then it kind of bleeds into the rest of your life. And that's why I feel like I didn't become aware of this until I was older. Like, oh, no, no, no, I shouldn't do everything. I should only do the things I really, really believe in, but I really enjoy and that I really

care about. Yeah. And then I'm going to do a better job. And the things I say no to are the things that don't feel any connection to. I don't feel compelled to do it. And there is a way to say no to people in a nice way. just be like, sorry it's not me. Or just can't, I can't, I can't put my time behind that.

So it doesn't make sense right now, right? And I think, and also like, so that mindset is bled into avenged as well in terms of like, the core thing here is don't put out, like, so it's twisting everything back to the way we think it should be, which is why do you put out a record? Well, you put out a record because you have to. meaning like I have art in me. I have to get it down and now what do we do with it? The music industry has turned it into when's your next record?

Right. Well, maybe I don't have one. Yeah. Like, what does that mean? Yeah. Like this is like, that's an important question. Like, well, you got off tour, you got like, what do you think? Six months would be ready to go again and get in the studio?

I don't know. Like, it has to go back to I have to put this out. This is so important to me. Like I have all these ideas and I'm just bursting at the seams. Okay, now that it's done, what have? we're going to do? How are we going to get it to people? But if you can continually put things and make music and art a commodity. On other people's timelines. Yeah. And then all of a sudden it becomes like, well, what are we really doing here? And you get this kind of, this kind of like dumbed

down. That's probably the wrong word, but very streamlined version of like, and the thing is like, and you see it even the, it even bleeds into the fans. Because I've done some interviews recently where I've said something like this, and they'll go, this stupid pompous attitude that just put out the damn record. You know, it's like, it's gotten so far to where the fans would rather just be handed some crap or something that they think is like not crap, right? Or look at this band did this and this band did that. It's like, how are we even like grading things on that? How are you even grading music? Right. It all has to be re-questioned, in my opinion. And it starts with bands that can be in a position like us to lead the way and do it. Like, okay, well, we're going to, we're going to do

things over here in blockchain even if you're mad. We're going to put out records we want to put out. We're going to put them out the way we want to put them out. We're going to tour how we want to tour. And it's nothing offensive. It is simply keeping ourselves sane and doing things in the name of art or in the name of the name of get it out quicker more, more and more, you know, here's the line, go down, put your record out like this, do that, package it like that. You got to do the vinyl like this you got to do it just becomes like a total um you know a juxt position of what the art should be in the first place yeah it's it's this productized commercialized kind of watered down you know let's let's make as many as we can like i think we're back in the time where people want special and i do

think people want special now yeah and i think like like less is more like i think people would rather own something that there's only 500 of in existence versus as many as we can just reprint them, reprint them, reprint them. And I think there's, I think you guys naturally think that way. And I think like one thing that stands out to me about this record is the art, right? So you had West Lang come do the art. Now, what I will say, knowing what I know about Wes, he's not doing anything he doesn't want to do. That's just how he lives. Even if you're his best friend. I know. He's not doing any, like, he just can't, it doesn't live in him to do something that he doesn't feel. And so that's interesting because, like, the only other band I think he's fucked with was the Grateful Dead.

So it's kind of cool. To me, it's just fucking cool as shit that I, when you said, I'm going to have West do the art. In my mind, I thought, yeah, right. Good luck. I don't know if that's going to happen. And not, like, West is the best guy ever. it's just he's a he's a creature of instinct and and he's it's all feeling yeah like he paints when he paints yes and if there's nothing there he's not like he's just that guy he lives that

like in the moment it's why people love his art he's one of the greatest artists in my opinion of all time i just think he's one of a kind um special he's he's to me he's like the rock and roll country boskyat yeah he's just He's that guy. He's just, it's a timeless culture that he's created. Yeah. It's just timeless.

And you were totally right because I thought I would be able to convince Wes and he said no multiple times. Right. And then. But he nailed it. And then when I gave up, I didn't talk to him about it for a year. Just hung out. Whatever.

And then one day he hits me up. And I'd been sending him demos of the record. And one day he hits me up and he's like got like five things and he sends a picture. And he's like, did this for the album. And I'm like, I'm like what? And then he keeps sending him. Then it was like seven,

10, 15, 20. He knocked him all out in like two, three days. Yeah, he's just going. He's prolific.

He got in it, right? Like he was in it. And then he's like, so I did this for the record if you want it for the record. I'm like, and that's West though. Like he gets his idea and I'll hand it to you and then like that's his idea.

Yep. And he knows exactly like he has his vision the same way you do. Yeah. Can you change the skull or not? No, no, no, I can't. Add a little color here. That's why I, that's why I'm a fan. Me too.

Like, I just love how, how calm he is and what he thinks. And then he's good if you're, like, if no one else agrees. Yep. He's good. And that's how I feel like you guys are kindred spirits. Yeah. Because as long as I've known you, I think you're calm in your vision and your choices. and it is not, it's not ego.

It's something else. It's art. It's like, nope, this is it. Here you go. I hope you like it. Yeah. Yeah, and it's weird. So the Wes of it all really makes sense to me.

Wes was great and he came in one day because we're like, we're going to do this. Band was so excited and so management, it's like, hey, let's meet up with Wes and get this deal done, you know. And he's just great. He's just great because he comes in, you know, and he's just like, yeah, I don't. I don't really care if you take it or not, but this is my price. And they're like, okay, well, everybody's like, no, I'm not, I'm not negotiating. That's just it. It's like, can we just like, do we have to have this meeting?

Yeah. That's it. That's the deal. And so it was great. But, you know, when I first, and I met West through you guys. But when I first met West, one of the first things he said is like, yeah, I did this thing for the Grateful Dead. And here it is.

It's awesome. And he's like, yeah, I'm never going to work for a band again or a record label, especially Warner Brothers or something. And he's like, because they screwed me over. And I'm like, oh, cool. Like, we just happened to be on a Warner. Cool. Yeah.

This, today's not a good day to ask, I guess. No. So, but I did come around to ask him later. Like, it was like a year or two later. I'm like, hey, do you think you do there? He's like, yeah, no. But he never, but that's the thing is he's a sweet soul. And he would never be offended if you asked.

Yeah. It's just, he's, he's just so true to his own way of living. And like, that's the, that's, I admire that when I meet people. that live that way. And I try to find my own version of that because I think that it's important in life. And by the way, anyone listening, if you look up West Lang, you'll understand, you know, I feel like everyone who sees his artwork loves it. But I do think it's important for all of us in our own lives to know who we are. Yes. And to know what our worth is. What our worth is. and what our taste is, what I would do, what I wouldn't do isn't the same as what you would or wouldn't do.

But it's right for me and what's right for you. And to actually have the space for all of us to be these autonomous people that you can do some things that I may not do. And I may not even fully agree with it for me. Like I just like, but for there to be space for, everyone to be different is I think something that we've lost a little bit in like culture these days, it feels like it's really divided on like one or two sides or three maybe. I don't know. And it feels like not true to me. It just feels not like the reality of life is it's really complex. Yes. And people are complex. And we probably, if we really under a microscope,

examined each other's every thought and belief and this. Like we wouldn't fully agree with every, like, that's just not reality. And there's got to be a space where everyone's allowed to make decisions that are right for them in the moment. And later on, maybe they wish they hadn't or whatever. But there's got to be room for like the imperfection of the reality of life. And I feel like watching you guys move through the world, watching West move through the world. I see people that make decisions that they feel are right. And there isn't a lot of

ton of explaining. It just feels very calm and confident. And I look at people like that. And I think I am always trying to get a little bit more of that in my own life and encourage people to find their own way and make their own decisions. And you do kind of get momentum in that. I think like Wes is a great example of someone who just does what he wants. I think you guys are too. And I think that's why you guys vibe is. I also think getting a no from him didn't offend you. I think it was like, okay, well, well, I wanted, I can see it.

I think I'm going to keep trying. Yeah, and I respected it more. Yeah. It's like I just, and I think there's a lot of evolutionary residue with human beings where we want to be a part of the tribe. Right. And a lot of times, we get caught up in this sort of, if you stick out too much,

there's going to be a lot of eyes on you and a lot of judgment and a lot of things and you feel like you're out of the tribe. And you see it a lot with politics, right, where you see, you know, somebody's like the head of, like, very vocal in a party, and then the party goes too far one way or the other. And then they can either go with it and not ruffle any feathers or they can say, no, that's not right? And now you're living in the middle where everyone's watching you and no one likes you.

Right. Right. And you see that with music. and you see that with art, with everything. And then there's those people that kind of just march at their own beat. And that's awesome. And I respect those people immensely. But it's hard because, and I don't blame people.

You know, it's like a, like, do you need more stress in your life because everyone's, like, ready to shoot you down for having an independent thought or an independent opinion. Yeah, or just not going with theirs. It's just going like, I don't know about that. I don't know if that's the truth. Totally. Totally. And like, until you see it all the time and people, I think that causes.

a lot of anxiety and society. And I think, you know, it's sad to see. But that's, but that's, if you look back 3,000 years and early, you know, human history or late, really, but early, from what we know is human history, we've needed tribes to survive. We've needed tribes to do all these different things. Only way to survive. Only way to survive. And, and now that we're a more technologically advanced society and technology is moving faster than our brains can catch up with, we've got all this ape brain that still fights us. And a lot of it is this social anxiety to, you know, think on our own, question things, go a certain route and know that you might be going it alone.

Right. And that's scary to people. Yeah. But it's okay. It's good for art. It's good for all sorts of things. It's good to be free and think and be interested in things and try to get all the information and do what you feel is best, right?

So that's kind of a broader, you know, idea on just a living. But I think about it a lot because at the end of the day, this life goes by like that. Yeah. And what we put out as a Venn sevenfold will be forgotten in 500, 400 years max, minimum, max. That's, it'll be gone. I never thought about that. It's very bleak, but likely. But the point is it doesn't really matter.

So while you're here, what's going to bring you the most happiness? Right. And for me, I want to express myself to the fullest while I'm here and I'm here to enjoy putting that out and feeling like I got it off my chest. Contributing to the conversation of human nature. Right. That's all art is. It's just contributing to the conversation. Like, I'm going to add this here and maybe I'll do this here.

Maybe we'll take this here. But as long as it's there, it exists now. And now it's going to inspire someone to do something else and something even cooler. and invent something or think about something in a different way. And that's how we as humans stand on the shoulders of each other as time goes on. Yeah. So I think art has a huge impact, but not if you're going to suppress it and try to fit in with the hurt right now. Yeah, like, oh, I don't want to stick out too much and get that guy to yell at me.

Who's that guy? Yeah. No one's going to remember him either. Yeah. It's okay. It's meant to be a wild, living, breathing thing. It's a discussion. You can't control.

It's a discussion. Right. Art is a discussion. Like, Wes influenced me. We're influencing West. We're going to influence a kid that's going to pick up maybe a keyboard or a guitar or some new instrument. Yeah. Yeah.

And then there's a new art that's inspiring me. Like, there's records right now that I've been hearing lately that I'm like, blown my mind. And I'm like, oh, like, I want to get back in the studio. Right. I'm hearing stuff that I had never heard before. What's your latest favorite? 100 gecks. Oh, yeah.

They're great. I put that record on and I was like, this is like my brain on firework. And but it's done so well. Yeah. Like as somebody who puts music together, I'm like, these people are, this is not, this is not what on the surface. This is very well done. Yeah.

And so like things like that, I hear stuff like that. And I'm like, like I felt the same way when I heard Yeezus. I felt the same way when I heard Pinkerton. Right. Like records that were like, I didn't know what to. Out of left field. I didn't know what was going on. And I had to figure it out.

And so it made me want to, you know, get in there. And so that's, but so when I, when you think about like, art being a part of the human discussion or a part of our evolution. It's super important in our evolution. Yeah. Yeah. That's how, I mean, a lot of art helps kind of dictate some of these ideas we try in science. And some of these, and science, it all plays together.

It's part of the human story. It keeps the history, too. It's telling the story of the time. And it's like cave paintings when you think about it, like songs that, you know, people will look back at eras and listen to the music of the era. And it'll dictate, they'll be able to understand. stand the fashion more, the way people talked, the way people interacted with each other, what issues were important?

You can see that all in the art. That's interesting. It's like the time capsule. It is the time capsule. And listen, when we think of, we've got like, we've got pianists and composers from a certain era that are just on the edge now of like, they're obviously very important to modern music, but before that, not much, before that, not much. and it just kind of, I assume it's going to keep, you know, sort of funneling through,

but these are all important stepping stones. And it's, that's what's so great about art. So I just think that to get back to the point of this is that it's important to be yourself. You have one shot at this. Yep. You have one shot. And it's okay to fail every time as long as you're doing something and you feel good about it. It's okay.

Like it's, no one is comfortable enough in their own skill. where they can judge you. Yeah. Right? Like, that's the lie. No one is. It's like, that's the lie we see on social media and that anyone has cracked the code and they figured it out.

Like, we're all a little bit of a mess in some way. Yeah. Like, we all have a weak spot. We all have an area. We just can't, you know what I mean? Like, we're human beings. And so I think people look to artists because we present well in one way or another. Like, that's the thing.

that's interesting to me is like when I when I look at my friends who most of them are artists and they're just cool as shit in some way like you're in a cool ass big rock band so you look cool to moat to that like to me and to like most people they're like that must be fucking cool to be in a rock band you're big ass stages big ass crowds making records it just kind of seems badass and that's the face value of what you do right but there's so much more There's a depth. You're a father. You're a husband. You're a, you're a, you're a guy who cares about technology, who cares about the, you know, all the things you're interested in are, are pretty complex, cool, interesting shit. And I think that's what's interesting is like, you could write

any of us off artists as just the face value of what we are. But you're missing the whole point. it's like the music is just one aspect of who we really are we're creative people the other but the other side of that is i think people who are maybe haven't learned you know those are muscles we learn you know we to express ourselves to to to have the confidence to dress how we want and be how we want it's kind of a of a muscle and it takes practice and i think there are people who have maybe never broken out of their shell and maybe never express themselves through art or through how they dress or through anything. Because I think expression is,

I think we take it for granted sometimes. So I think that people will look to someone that they see like you on social media and they go, oh, they're, they've got it all figured out. What I always say is like, I've got a bunch of shit figured out because I've been doing it a long time. So I've just gotten good at, I've built momentum at that. But I got a bunch of other shit I have not figured out. And I go to therapy every week.

Now, I'm a worker, so I like to work on shit. So I go in every week and I'm like, I want to figure this out. I always encourage people to work on themselves. And I think it's now a lot more like normal for everyone to do it. I think 20 years ago, it wasn't as, you know, it was kind of weirdly not as normal. The human, you know, potential wasn't as a, you know, we weren't as aware of our potential to grow. Or maybe we were, but it wasn't as accepted. But I think that people look at you or me or whoever, and they go, oh, you got to figure it out.

I'm like, nah. Like, we all have some dirty laundries, some mess that we got to, there's some aspect of us that we got to keep chipping away at. And it'll never not be there. I don't think there'll ever be a moment in my life where I'm not working on something that I have a weakness in. There won't be. I'm just super conscious that I want to get stronger at it. And I have, but I have my areas. And I think that's the, that's the lie we get told on social media is we see the filtered, you know, version of everyone.

Yep. There's no way I'm putting anything that on there that doesn't look good. And another lie is that, you know, we all start with the same cards and we don't. You know, there's genetics, there's deep past. There's things that there's a bigger discovery. about free will and there's a big discussion about the things you feel if you have a urge to do something that's considered wrong you need to be able to forgive yourself and to work on those things and do it in a way that you realize that the cards you were dealt not the cards I was dealt not the

cards that the guy down the street was dealt there are addiction problems there are mental illnesses there are so many things social economic uh all kinds of of cards. All kinds of things. And people and social media will make it look like, eh, you didn't, you know. You're just bad. You're just bad. And, and there's no, in my opinion, there's no bad, right? There's, there's circumstances and there's putting yourself in other people's shoes and trying to have empathy for people and the way they act and the reason they need jerk react to things, the way they do certain things. And those are deeper conversations. But I think that what I take out of it is. That's interesting. I never thought about that. Yeah, but what I take out of it, when I think about these things, I think, you know, people, if you don't have the ambition to get up and go do something, you need to forgive yourself first and realize you are what you are and then find the thing. If you can observe the thing that does interest you, it might not be something that's flashy. Right. Or anyone's going to care about. Or it might just be, it could be anything, right? You got to find

the thing that makes you happy. Like there was a, I mean, this is something. such a bad example, but I mean, I love a bad example. 20 years ago, like, playing video games, you were a loser. Right. And then kids took it on and now they're millionaires and they started YouTube channels and technologies caught up. Isn't that funny how that worked?

Like, it was like you were a nerd or a loser. Yeah, you know, like you must just smoke weed and play video games. Yeah. But now it's a job. Yes. Like I looked at a school with my kid the other day. They have a fucking class. Yeah, because savvy people said, well, I'm going to go all in on this because I'm

good at this. Or I'm a personality and I'm funny or I know what good content is. And so as technology kind of opens up the doors of new jobs and new things to do, I would just say, forgive yourself for not being interested. Stop criticizing yourself. Yeah, don't criticize yourself. You have to be gratitude's important that you're even here. And then second kind of observing what it is or picking what it is that you really love and then just seen if you can just go in on it. And you might not succeed at it, but at least you're going down a path of something that if you do become successful. Yeah, a life you like living in.

Yes. I totally agree with you. I think that most people don't feel like they have the freedom or the power to build out a life that they like living in. They almost kind of accept. And I do think that it goes to the system that we set up, I think, in the beginning of our country, in the kind of industrial area age,

where they needed to build a workforce. So schools were really kind of set up, it feels like to build a workforce. So we're learning the things we need to learn to work in the group. And like I think at the time where we were in the world, I think that was a, you know,

maybe I'm way off, but it feels like school is teaching us all to get to the answer the same way and who answers the quickest is the star. And so it's a speed of learning and versus how we learn and what we're good at. So anyways, that's probably a whole other show. But I think somewhere in there, most of us get, we feel powerless, we feel helpless, and we feel like we don't have a choice.

I think that we, we, what people need to come to understand. about themselves is every individual has their own potential and their own power and the discovery process, what you're talking about, finding something you enjoy is likely connected to your talent. We're an instinctive creature. A ton hasn't changed about our brain in the last, in the, however many hundreds of years. We're still kind of hunter gatherers at the core of our DNA. The brain's the same.

And so you're likely in one of those groups. So you may be a super mechanical person who enjoys the processes, or you may be a wild artist who can't focus on any one thing. And you're a hunter. And you need things to move fast that you want to chase. So I think that, like, ultimately, like, we kind of live in a critical society. Like you said, we get criticized from the, the sources of information, the people that are leading us in our youth to get to the answers

fast, stay in line, and perform well on the test that's the same for everyone. And so the critical kind of feedback we're always getting at a certain age kind of boxes us into this like, I don't know what to do with my life. I guess I should just do what they're doing. And I think what you're saying is like not a lot of people say it. and I think it's super important. It's like finding what you enjoy, like what you purely enjoy doing, I think it will actually lead if you let it and you double down on it will lead you to a lifestyle

where you're doing things you really enjoy. And you'll actually, if you put that first, you'll find a job out of it. There's a way it becomes, because that's, you know, as humans, we tend to want to be productive. Yeah. So we'll find a way to be productive. We do. We want to be productive. And, you know, this isn't saying that you don't need to make a living for yourself.

And there's cost of living. There's all these things because, but the thing is we've put up a system that's actually pretty toxic. Yeah. For what we consider success. I know a lot of very rich people and I know a lot of people that have no money. And it's kind of equal or maybe the people that are at the top, even though they don't see themselves at the top. There's always the next. Yeah, yeah, there's always the next level.

A lot of them are miserable. It's on the phone all day, dealing with things all day. Like, they can't, they have no time. Some people, I'm not saying all of them. Some people have been able to live with it, right? Where they're like just turning this thing off for the day. I'm going to hang out with my family. You're going to go do this, take them to the pool.

Like, whatever it is that you find purposeful in life, right? Because at the end of the day, we have to create our own purpose. There's no one came down and said, here's your purpose. Like, you have to find your own purpose in life if you choose to. There's a lot of philosophers that say, say inherently there is no purpose. And that's depressing to some people. But then there's also people that go like, yeah, there's no purpose.

But if you find something you enjoy and you find joy in that, that's your purpose. Go towards it. Right. But it's saying that there are people that have done the thing they want to do in life that haven't gone up that proverbial mountain. Right. And haven't worked their fingers to the bone and aren't miserable. And they're actually super happy.

Super happy. Because I don't actually think it's money. It's not, but society makes you think it is. Yeah, you get sold the dream that it's money. Sold the dream that if I had a couple million bucks, like I'd buy that house. It's like, all your bills go up. Take care of the house. Everything is like within its own means.

Yeah. Like, and so like you have to stop at some point and go, okay, well, where am I? What do I really want? Yeah, where am I? Yeah. I'm here. Like where do I see myself? I'm here.

And then what do I need to do to foster something healthy out of that? Yeah. Because even if you're here, you still have to stop yourself and go, okay, now I'm here. And so, and these are all things that have been taught for so many years through Buddhism or whatever it is, right? To be mindful, to be present. And to be able to assess a situation, forgive yourself, move on, and just be able to really be in the moment. There's the saying, stop and smell the roses isn't, it's it. It just come out of nowhere, right?

Like, I find myself finding so much more joy in the mundane lately. Yeah. Like, oh, the kids want to watch a movie in the middle of the day. Let's do it. Let's just chill and watch a movie. Like, turn everything off. Or, like, go to the park. They want to go to a picnic.

Dude, the thought of a picnic for me used to be like, no freaking way I'm going to sit there for an hour. Go sit outside. But now I'm like just sitting at a picnic, like watching them, like eat their sandwiches. Do you guys sit on a blanket or at a picnic table? Get a blanket. Okay. And so, but like those sorts of things, like to me, like, do you have like a camping blanket that's like a material that won't get dirty? Val's got all sorts of stuff.

Yeah. It's got, she's got it all set up and make some sandwiches. But Val's got a handle. Like this, like the little things of just like watching them be kids. Yeah. Gives me so much joy where I can see another version of me just totally not being involved in that. Not being plugged in. Not being plugged in.

Totally. Or just like annoyed that I'm there. Like, what do you think? What do you think it was that plugged you in? What was it that you realized this? Because I didn't know this when I was younger. The idea of that like the bigger house is not going to make me happy. Now, there is actually like research on this that there's a threshold for how much money

will actually make us happy. And there is a number. And I don't think it's a high number. I think it's somewhere like they said something like between like 75,000. I thought you're going to say if you have a billion dollars. No, no. Listen, I think we. But no, I think it, I think there is actually like a bar that when you hit it, you think

that no amount of money would ever be enough. But actually, I think there's, I got to look it up. There's a study where they, they, it's somewhere between like a hundred, between like 75,000 like $125,000 a year income over that, the happiness level doesn't go up anymore. Yeah, yeah. There's like some certain level that's not as high as you would think. You would think it's a million dollars or this or that, whatever. But it's so the money thing is actually dispelled when like you're right.

Like you think you want the bigger house, but you don't. You don't want to, you don't want. I always tell people like, think about what you really. want. Forget about size. Because it size is nothing to do with like get a house or get a place that you just

wait until you walk into a place that you can afford that you love. Take the time. And some people would say, well that's not realistic. I get it. But also when I think about like, oh, I was in the band. I was working three jobs

while I was trying to make it. And I did it happily because it was it was fueling my life that I could do this band. And I know that if I could do it, I'm not a genius. That's the thing is I'm not, I didn't have, I didn't have a leg up on anyone. If anything, like we had no support anywhere. We had to fund our life and make the band happen. And I remember that time.

It was really hard. But we loved it because we had a dream. And I think the dream is what made us happy. And I think, I think, I think about that now when I, when people kind of argue the kind of opposite when they say, that's not true. You're just kind of out of touch with what it really means. And I'm like, no, I still remember what it was like working three jobs and trying to find

a place to record and trying to make it with my band. And I was dead set on making it. I also think people need to find their dream. That's it. The dream is what made me happen. And a lot of times, like, think about if you're like taking care of your elderly parents and you get all these things. So sometimes life gets in the way of people and we just have to be really like, that's a hard thing, right?

Like imagine your our age, right? And imagine like you have to be home to do certain things to take care of your family or do. People are all dealt these different cards. And I will never be able to put ourselves in everyone's shoes. We can only speak on what we know. That's good. From ourselves. And then just be empathetic towards other people's situations and try to.

Because the cards are different. Cards are different. Right. Like I don't know what I would have. done if I had if my mom had cancer or something and during the time that avenge was starting. I was lucky in the fact that you didn't have that. We didn't have that. Right.

And we had a dream and we put all our eggs in one basket. Now that basket could have fallen over and it wouldn't have made it. And that probably happens 99% of the time. It's interesting. So how do you pick yourself up and go somewhere else, right? And so there's so many different situations. I just feel like all we can do is try to further the human conversation. where you can.

And that's why I have so much respect for people that, the person that is taking care of their mom, right? Right. That can't go chase their dream. Or the person that can't get out of that situation, just so much respect for those people because they're doing what they have to do to survive. And that's. And they take care of someone else.

Take care of someone else. But at the end of the day, you know, like there's other people that would just leave. Yeah. And they might go chase their own dream. And does that, then they're going to have a lot of regret when they get older. Right. Right. And that's why there's no easy answer. Right. It's so tough.

That's the truth of life. It's like what I was, it's tough. It's complex. And it's just a complex. It's different for everyone. And that's why empathy is so key as humans. Like, and you were saying like, what brought you to this? Well, to me it was, read a lot of books. Started meditating years ago. And I hate this truth, but psychedelic. Yeah, mushrooms. DMT mushrooms. Okay.

That's great. I think they're going to change the world. I do too. But a lot of times people will take that little part and go, yeah, they'll make that the headline. Of course, that's the, that's the funny thing about the culture is like people will extract something like that and make it the headline. But that's not the headline.

I think that that's interesting because, I didn't know that, but I'm in the same, I feel the same way. I feel like they've been a huge help in like all kinds of things. For me, healing. Yep. Past, you know, I actually do feel like it does something to your brain that's really feels helpful. Yep.

And I can't, you know, I'm not. a big, I've never done drugs, you know, so I've never been a drug guy. No, a drug guy either. It feels different. And I'm not a weed guy. I don't smoke weed. I like to be in my body. And I think it's a super mindful experience when you do, when, you know, all of those

different shades of that. So I think it definitely has something to do with it. That's cool. Yeah. What book would you say, is there a book or two that you feel like really opened your mind to something or changed your mindset or shed light on an idea that you didn't really grasp before. Well, I really wanted to have like a foundation scientifically because that's where my brain instantly goes. So there's a Brian Green book called Until the End of Time that kind of explains

what we know from the Big Bang all the way till this sort of where we're at and where we're going. And it kind of plays into the philosophy of like Albert Camus, like the stranger, sort of like there is no purpose to life. But once you realize that, then you've opened up, you've unlocked all the doors. Because now you can do whatever you want. And I don't believe morals are given to us by a higher being. I believe people are inherently good. And I don't need someone to tell me what's right and wrong.

I can feel it. And I just by how I would want to be treated. Right. You feel like it's nature. Yeah. Yeah, so I, so I, so I, so you're not very religious. I'm not religious at all. Okay.

But I find beauty and no purpose. Right. Okay. And I've found a lot of positivity in there being no purpose because I feel like that's the ultimate freedom. Right. I don't want to be told what needs to happen. I want to have my own path and be able to, and for me, it's all the simple things we all come back to. Right.

And it's all the things that religion would teach you. Yeah. It's love. It's my family. It's empathy. It's trying to further the human conversation. But the difference here is if you said, Matt, does any of it matter? I would say no. I would say at the very end, the only reason it matters is because while you're here, I don't like to see suffering. Is that how you really feel? Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. I believe that if you look in even a five billion year time frame when Earth gets wiped out, I believe nothing will ever know where you're here. It doesn't matter. Wow.

I have no problem with that at all. I have a very different brain, even though I think I'm pretty spiritual, borderline religious. I don't think I'm religious, but I'm definitely a God person. But I don't have an opinion on anyone else's philosophy. Like, I'm very much, like, I actually love to know how other people are wired. And I always wonder why I feel the way I feel, because it is just how I feel. So it's interesting because I don't think, I don't even know if it's by choice, right? I think we do make choices.

But how I feel is how I feel. That's the free will talk. You know what I mean? That's the uncomfortable free will talk. Yeah. And so it's so interesting to me. I did not know. I always knew you were a science guy.

Yeah. But I think that's a really interesting philosophy. That sounds really nice. nice in a lot of ways to me. It's nice but scary to people, right? And so, like, I think, I look at it like this. I look at deep history and there's no sign of, I mean, you could always, you could always go back, back, back.

And the thing that God has going forward is you can always go, well, what created that? And you could always go further back. Right, right. These are things that, like, these are just like conversations that go in circles, right? Yeah. But let's just say, right. Just say we have a big bang. I love it.

And it came out of natural. But my philosophy would be that God created the big bang. 100%. Right. And there's no way to prove either way. In my God brain, I'm like, okay, God did the bang and created evolution. Yeah. So my, and my question would be at what point did God start taking notice or care, right?

Was it 2,000 years ago? Was it like, those guys are kind of apes, but they're kind of looking like this new thing that I'm into? Let's start. I'm going to send Jesus out in a couple thousand years. And so there's a bunch of funny things to me, right? And like, and I understand that people that believe in God, now they've become more savvy. So it's, they go, well, I'm not talking. about the guy in the sky. I'm talking about a feeling or like a, a consciousness, a

consciousness, a collective consciousness. Yeah. And so, I mean, I, there's no, like, those are all things that I, like, listen, when you, when you want to know what you feel is the truth and you read as much as you can on it, there's a, a shock to the system, which makes me think it's very much evolutionary in how it's based in a human. Because there's very few things that make your body chill to the bone. Right. The day that I realized that God was not a feasible option for me. Right.

My whole body just shook and fear. Wow. Right. And I know that is usually the spot where most people go, okay, I'm going back. Right. I'm going to run back to it. I'm going to run back to it. And so I just, I was calm and I just continued to read and see if I could find things on either

side and it just kept leading me towards. But that's what makes you, you. Yes. And you're like a, you're like a scientist. And it's one of the things I've always liked about you. I'm different. I'm like bliss. Yeah.

I just think God is so big that I'll never understand any of it. And I like not understanding any of it. I believe in science. I believe in the laws of the universe and of science. And I believe that like that what you're saying is true. In some way it's true. and that God is even bigger. That's my, so, but I think part of me is comforted by the size in my mind of how big God is

that I don't have to have the answer. Yeah. And I think there's something about that that like calms my mind from maybe going down the rabbit holes that you're, that you go down and enjoy. I don't know if I could handle it. Well, I would, let me ask you a question. So I have two things. Yeah.

if you found out that consciousness was not special, if we were able to turn on consciousness through AI or if we were able to figure out the actual molecular sort of thing that happens that turns something on. Would at that point you'd go, okay, because the belief in God and the comfort in God almost feels like I'm going to carry on in some way or there's a me. And a lot of the philosophy that I believe in is that there is no you. That's what nobody's about, right? Like there's no you.

You are one with the whole universe. Now, God might have his hands around the whole universe, but at that point, you're in an ocean. Right, but I feel like a me. You feel like a me. Of course you do. Yeah. But that's... I just like to be me.

So when I did 5MEO DMT, the point of it is to wipe away you. Right. It's ego does. No, it's very scary. But one thing that it led me to was I have this friend Jeremiah who's became very religious as of late. Okay. We get, you know, whiskey and just argue with each other, you know, back and forth.

Then it was always like, I'm not an arguer though. No, I know I get it. Because I believe that like everyone's having their own experience. And I just don't know if I know I am not God. Yeah. And so I just don't think I have the answer for someone else's experience. Like there's living the life that they were meant to live. And like, so I'm not a, I hate argument, people that argue about religion because I just don't think like it.

I can't stand it. I don't know why. I just like. No, I get it. I love that. I love someone feeling like they can tell me what they believe and not feel like they're getting ever judged because I, it's just not who I. Because we don't know, right. It doesn't live in me.

So when I did this 5MEO and it was the most, it's called the God particle. Right. And like, neat. It's a good name. You lose yourself. You're not, you don't exist when you're on this. And it's a very, it's like, it's not correct for English words or any words. You actually come back and you can't even talk.

but the next day I saw Jeremiah. Yeah. Right. And you were like, God doesn't exist. No, no, no. I gave him a hug and I said you were right all along. He exists. And I gave him a hug because I realized at that moment, it didn't matter.

Right. Regardless. Maybe we actually do. Maybe our philosophies are closer than I think. I think they both come around to the same sort of result at the end. And I just said like what he believes in and what I experienced, was the same thing. Right.

Like, he puts a name on it, and I was just one with the universe and with every human that ever existed. And that was like, it felt like, and when you listen to nobody, the first lyric is, I'm a God. I'm awake. I'm the one in everything. And it's because I'm taking those words and saying, I'm changing them what you think they mean.

Right. Like, I don't think I'm up there making decisions. No, yeah. I just felt like I was, and there's an old Buddhist saying, you know, enlightenment is when the wave realizes. it's the ocean, right? It's when you realize you're just one with everything, and you're just ebbing and flowing.

And so when I realized that, I realized Jeremiah was right all along. What he believes in and what guides him in life, what he calls God is just a technicality. It was all the same thing. And so it was actually an interesting way to come back around to everything because I'm not like someone that's just gonna,

like I have my beliefs in science, and I believe these different things, and I just don't like things getting excused because of God or rules getting made because God would want this. Or like God as a like a, like a, I do feel like what's just a problem I have with with what I would say are like faux religious people who say they're religious, but then attack other people and are hateful and mean.

And like that hurts me to my core because I really do feel like the idea that God is love is like a real thing to me. So when people like kind of go, oh, I'll just pray about it. Instead of like, drives me nuts. Instead of doing something, like we were given capability. Yes. For a reason.

Like I feel anyways. No, yeah. I feel like we were given potential. We were given capability. The, the anti-God idea is to not grow. Yep. The anti, to me, like if you want to be closer to God, grow, work, be your best self.

Don't accept, you know, like to me, it's not about the failure. Like you said, I don't want to like someone to sit there and shame themselves for the rest of their life. Get up, grow, improve, evolve. And that to me is like the idea, I was just talking about this today. To me, evolution is we will be fully evolved when we stop killing each other when there's no killing. that's the fully evolved human. Totally. The humans that don't kill one another.

That's when we're fully evolved. That's what I think. And I think that our evolution is we is to get to a place where we no longer kill each other. And it's as simple as that. That's growth. Yep. It's empathy. When we get to a place where we can actually look across at another person and feel their pain, feel their suffering, and not hurt one another, is like, that's evolution.

You know, I had somebody recently that wrote me a long thing upset about nobody, about the lyrical content. That I was leading people. Offensive? Yeah, like it was leading people towards this like pagan sort of. I found the record to be super like spiritual sounding to me. When I heard it, I got a totally different impression. Well, the thing is if you think it's pagan or anything religion, then you're gone so far the other way. Right.

It's really a neutral. Right. It's like this is the situation we're in. Yeah. And the situation is not super great. Here's the facts. But if you come from the viewpoint that we were placed on Earth and there's a little bit of special dust on us because of consciousness, then you're going to have a different worldview than me who believes we were created from the Earth because of the conditions of the Earth through evolution, right? I believe that when life started in the ocean and it came to this point and we're here right now,

we can call that a miracle, we can call it whatever we want. It's a fucking shot in the dark. But there's a difference between thinking we were placed here and there's someone watching us and there's a purpose. Or ending up here and saying, well, here's how we got here. It's happenstance. There is no purpose. So what am I going to do to feel good or what path am I going to cut out for myself? What am I going to make my purpose?

What am I going to make my purpose? And to one side, that looks extremely dire and sad. And I will admit that there can be a toggle of sadness. It's like the yin and yang, right? It's like there's a toggle. But to me, I find more truth than that because I find no evidence of us. In fact, I see bones in the museum that there was evolution. And I also have friends that think dinosaur bones were placed here, and I'm not joking.

Wow. So you have very different, I think it matters where you came from. Yeah. And so that's when I get off the train of like, it's hard to argue that because if we can't agree on where do we break off here? And if you can't agree on that, then we can't really talk about what all this means. Yeah. But what, okay, so what if we're all just making sense of our experience and,

trying to find the evidence to back it up. And you're not wrong. You have, you're getting, you know, you're, but like the human experience is full of pain and suffering. And that's just the fact. Like we're all, I don't care who anyone is out there, what their life is. Like you said, everyone got different cards. The guarantees are we're all going to suffer.

At some point, we're going to lose everyone we love. Everyone's going to die. And that's just the facts. Yeah. And so I think that our real, this conversation, and we can move on from it. I didn't bring you on here to just drill you on your views of God. I like it. But the actual truth of the matter is, is we're all having this human experience.

No one escapes it. We all suffer. And we all have pain. And we're all trying to make sense of it. And music and art help people do that. And you brought it back. You know, and it's true. And then we love to argue about the facts of the evidence we've found, right?

Like, I can't give you any evidence. I can only tell you how I feel and how I like to feel. I love to walk along and be like, doop-de-do-do, everything's good. Everything's going to be okay. And that just makes me feel good about life. And it helps me connect, yes, do I think that I am achieving things on my own? for sure I'm achieving things in my life with the support of my community and my family and my friends.

I am going forward and I see evidence that I'm growing and I look for that every day. I do think we get what we look for. If I go out in the world every day and I look for evidence that it's hard and people don't like me and that nothing works out, I will find evidence of that every day. If I go out every day and look for evidence that life is good, it's full of opportunity, that I make friends all the time. That's how I see the world and that's my life. Every day, I just go out in the world and I'm like, man, this is fucking great.

To make decisions in life, you have to have some sort of idea of where your worldview stands. Right. And I feel like it's very hard to move forward if everyone just goes, well, I don't know, like, could be anything. Yeah, like it's like, okay, well, that's how we can. get what we have right now on social media where everyone's a contrarian everyone's poking holes on everything even though it might not even be no one even knows everyone's the like expert on everything is getting questioned right it's like everything has to be re-questioned when it's like

human history for a long time was built on the shoulders of earlier humans and at some point Einstein was proven right and if he's not then there'll be more experiments to figure out where he's right and that's just one example but i believe in that so it's really really hard. Like, again, like I was saying, in the last, I'll end it on this. It's hard to have the conversation with the guy that thought someone put us here and sprinkled special dust on us and my worldview, because where we go from there is really hard to navigate if we can't come to some understanding of the fundamentals of what we believe. But yeah, like facts are facts, science is science. That's the thing is I believe in like the actual process and the, you know,

the facts of life are like you could believe in God and believe that there was a system created. 100% versus a system growing out of, you know, evolving out of, you know, evolving out of, you know, the Big Bang to now. Like I'm not going to even argue any of that because I believe in science. So I do think that like that's where it gets messy is when people are like, no, that's not it because it doesn't say it in the Bible. And I'm like, well, I also like the Bible, but I also think it was written at a certain time and a certain language.

And there's a lot of things we could scientifically, we could dig in and, you know, that's something. Right. Socially they were doing that. Socially would never fly, but we let some, we push some things out. We don't acknowledge. And then some things we keep as like, so that is, that's the thing. It's complex. It's complex.

Humans are complex. But we all have to find a way that works for us. But for me, the through line is, you know, happiness is doing, living a life you like living in. Yes. That's why I gave Jeremiah a hug and said you were right. Yeah. I was done arguing with them. They were like.

And it wasn't about conceding anything. Yeah. It was just about it's all the same in the end. Yeah. In my opinion. Right? It's all the same. Do you guys have a lot of religion?

religious fans, you think? Or your fans more on the evil side? On the what? Evil side. I'm sure there's a lot of religious fans. And we also play Muslim countries. Yeah, you do. You play all over the world.

We play everywhere because we don't. Religion isn't a big. Well, for me, like as somebody who I don't dislike religious people, I have no problem with them. So I expect them not to dislike us. Right. But that's not always the case. But that's, I don't, we never really get any pushback.

I mean, we go play Israel and we play. Everywhere. Indonesia. We play Asia and we play, I mean. You guys do big ass shows. Where's your favorite place to play, though? I love seeing the people in Jakarta. Right.

I love seeing the people in, um, in Brazil. Yeah. I love Mexico City. Mexico City's badass. And I love Italy. I love Scandinavia and I love England. So there's like some little hot pockets that I, really, really enjoy. I love Montreal. Big fun shows. Big fun shows. I just, and it's just like you see

people are just good everywhere. Yeah. There's just so many excited, great people. And, but I like being in some of those third world countries, if we call them that anymore, like whatever, right? These places where it's hard to get down to, not playing a lot of shows, but you get there and it's like, it's fun to go do that. And I think as, you know, culturally, we're kind of like, subvert you know kind of um we're given messages about countries that are just not true and then you go you play there and you're like oh i could fucking live here like the people are great like not that i would want to live anywhere than where i live but you start to see like people are people everywhere you go or all the same i was prone to be a uh a little bit of a closed off redneck

when i was right first coming up then i traveled the world and i was like and i was like and i was like, whoa, everybody's the same. Yeah. And everyone's good. They all want the same thing. And so traveling is what broke me out of that. Yeah. And now my kids are getting raised different than my parents weren't nothing like that.

But when you live in one place for your whole life and you hear everything you hear, it's easy to get caught up in that. Yeah. Yeah. It's natural. Yeah. It's natural to be. How old are your kids?

10 and 8. Oh, wow. Did they like your music? They love it. That's cool. And they also, but they also listen to, you know, Cash told me the other day that this is his favorite record, this one, which is cool because he really is getting into eight-year-old. He's really getting into singing, keeping his larynx down, like doing all these things,

like, because he hears me doing all the time. So I've been teaching him and he's really into stuff, but my other son is really into programming. Right. And so he's on Unreal Engine 5 right now, learning how to build tools. but music's a big part of his life but it's mostly like hip hop, emo rap, DJs.

Listen to marshmallow and little Ouziver and Eminem and that's what he's into. Drake, Kanye, he loves that stuff. But Cash is more into the same stuff, but he also likes no effect, System of a Down, Pantara, stuff with big riffs. And so he's more, I guess, well-rounded

with the music. He's really focused on what the music's doing where my son's more like, well, what's going to make. my game look cool and, you know, playing football and playing basketball and he's got hip hop playing and he's just in the culture, you know? Yeah. That's kind of how my son is.

Yeah. I think it's, like, important for us to pay attention. Like, I love hearing what they're listening to. Yeah. I just love it because I get, you know, there's so many things that influence me that they're listening to and I'm like, well, that's rad. I'm with it. I always kind of, when he'll let me, a lot of times he just has his headphones on.

And at 13, I think that's just what they do. And, you know, like, I'm around a lot of, like, he brings the, like, crew over. They're all listening to whatever. And I get, I always kind of see what's, what's really up, what kids are listening to. And I like it. I definitely fuck with it for sure. Yeah. Sometimes I think I sound old saying this.

I'm just like, I've said this before and it makes me sound really old. I think that a lot of times they're not putting enough thought into. I'm a sound old, but like the lyrics. And I'm not saying the content. I don't give a fuck what they sing about. Yeah. I just, it sounds lazy to me. Yeah.

And I'm an art guy. So that's why I love Travis Scott. I think his, I think, Uzi, same. I think the arts a little better. Yep. And so, and, you know, my kid loves those guys. And then some of the other stuff he plays, I'm like, I can tell it's a new artist.

So I know there's room to grow. So I'm not like turn it off. But like I do listen to music a little more critically, I think, than like. Totally. They do. And you also have to realize that when we were growing up, like say, like I was listening to every punk band. Right.

And there was, everyone wasn't bad religion, right? Like super sophisticated lyrics. Fat Mike's kind of a gem. He just very smart. Like, you know. Good play on words. But there was 50 bands that were coming out of my room. that would have been like,

this music's not as good as the sex pistols or the remote. And some of it stands up and some of it doesn't. Yeah. And so I'm sure that's what our kids are going through. Yeah, yeah. They're just playing everything that's hip, it's happening. And then some of it's just, we're never going to think of it again. You could write a book.

Yeah. You could write a book, for real. Yeah. You could write a, like a... A lot of people have asked if I wanted to. Some kind of like philosophical. I think music is important. it would have to be in there somehow some philosophy would have to be in there and then something

with like being a dad because i also think that be like the new era of like parenting dads are more involved in the conversation than i think ever yeah i think we're all like super involved like um and there i think there's a little bit there is a version of it being overdone but i found all my friends you included we're all we have i feel like we have a good swing with the fatherhood thing like I do feel like, like none of us are saying like, oh, look at my little geniuses. I'm raising the perfect kid. But like we're doing a pretty good job.

Yeah. Like the kids are growing up. They're, you know, 13. My kids are 13, 15. So far so good. Yeah. Right. Didn't break it.

Yeah. Definitely didn't have like a roadmap. But no roadmaps. I think you just, I think we all question if we're any good at it. Yeah. At some point, we're like, I don't know if I'm any good. good at parenting. And then we look back at our parents and think about how scared they were. Yeah. And then you kind of forgive your parents. I know. You're like, oh. Like my dad left when I was

young and I didn't meet up with them until I was like 30. And I was kind of like, yo, I totally. Yeah, totally get it. Get it. Good move. I totally get like the leaving bar. How was it? Yeah. Did you enjoy it as much as a fun? I imagine you did. Oh my God. My parents were like 20 when they had me. Yeah. And it's like what were they? How are they doing? crazy. But then you think there is a lot of forgiveness. Like you look back and you're like, God damn,

how did you do it? You had four fucking kids working two jobs. No iPhones. So no apps. Nothing to like make things get here quicker. No ride shares. Maps from the liquor store. Yeah, dude.

And work tour. Think about what your parents had to go through to get you to, you know, out of the nest. And I think about it. And I'm like, I got it easy. I got it.

I can order fucking dinner and do this and do this. Like I can do I can take care of the kids. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think like. Crazy. I think it's interesting how like, but the modern kind of situation is is like dads can be more present, more involved. And also I think like divorce now is not as like taboo.

So like parents are doing more co-parenting. Yep. And less fighting. Yeah, it was a big deal back then. Yeah. Your parents are divorced. Oh, man. Now it's like dad's on his third wife.

My dad just got divorced in his his ex-girlfriend from, you know, it's like, you know, he's on that dating app. You know what I mean? Dad's on Tinder. All the parents are on dating apps now. So I think, but it's like, I do think we're in a time and an interesting time in the world where like anything goes. Yep.

But people, I think, are, they have the opportunity anyways to be like more connected to their kids and less stuff is weird. Like therapy's not weird. Divorce isn't weird. So everyone can kind of get along, you know, so I don't know. It's weird. I always kind of go, well, I don't know if I'm the best dad, but I try my best. And I want my kids to be happy and I want them to be able to just be themselves and build a happy life.

Whatever that means. So my idea of what they should be doing. is likely not going to be their idea. So I try to remind myself. It's really good. It's like a balance of like guiding them, giving them tools. Yeah. So they can do what they want when they're older.

But you got to think your kids are not you. They're a combination of deep lineages of both you and your wife. Right. And there's a bunch of things that kind of. Science. But there's a bunch of things that seep in that maybe you didn't see in your wife that comes from her family or people from your family. And there's this new mixture that's happening.

and they have different personalities and they're just their own thing and things that you're just like, why are they acting like that? Or why are they doing this? Or why do they do this all the time? Or why do they have that sort of instinct to do that? Yeah.

You just have to remember that these are individuals. They are a mix of a bunch of things that you can't necessarily see right now and you just need to foster it, the positive. And yeah, you're right. They're going to be who they're going to be so you can either, you know, make it hard on them and make it hard on you by fighting him the whole way or just kind of having that mindset

where you're just like this is who they are and let's try to like the same way you let yourself be who you are yeah in event sevenfold totally and also making your records and by the way it's not to say that our kids love who they are right and so you need to be like really focused in on helping them enjoy themselves right or just helping them helping them Because I have one of my sons, Cash, like, he's the happiest boy in the world. And if anything goes wrong, then it's, I wish I wasn't alive. I wish I, you know, all these things that are alarming, you know? Like, it's like, it's like, it's just gone off the rails.

And it can go like that. He's a deep feeler. A deep feeler. And like, so we need. Depths of disappointment when he's disappointed. Yes. And so it's like. He's the extremes.

Yes. Very happy. And then very, like, I get it. And so like, how do we get him a tool? to get like, you know. How do you nudge him to the, to the middle? The people he can talk to if he doesn't want to talk to his parents. Right.

And do all these things, but that's just, those are where a parent comes in. Right. Or help him understand. But telling him that. That's ridiculous. Right. Like, why do you say that every time? You shouldn't say that.

You're like, that is the old way that people used to handle it. Right. Like smack it down. Yeah. Instead of, yeah. Instead of like, what he's feeling is what he's feeling. Yeah. You can't change.

But it's more like helping him understand and process what he's feeling. Yes. Because like you could say like, well, what if I don't want to change that about him? What if I want to help him harness that? Yeah. Like what if there's a version of him getting to know like, damn, I'm a deep, deep feeler? When I get sad, I get really sad. When I'm happy, I'm really happy.

There's a really good quality to that. Yeah. Like the highest joy you can feel. He may feel a little level that I've never felt. Yep. because there are people like that. Oh, yeah. But then the other side of it is that when they're, when they feel disappointment,

it's the deepest disappointment. And it's like almost like helping him ride that wave. Yep. And like ride that bike. Just knowing what's happening when it's happening. Right. That's the biggest thing. Yeah.

That's crazy. I know it's going to pass. I know this isn't. Right. This is who I am. Yeah. This is, yeah. And then like, maybe that's when I make art.

That's when I make art. I want to write a book. I want to make songs. Right. the one that loves music, right? Right. And so it's like... Of course.

Yeah. And he's dialed in, right? So it's like, that's probably something that he's going to do. And I don't want to... But the worst thing you can do is like, no, you don't. Don't talk like that. Don't do that. Yeah.

But don't you think that even the fact that we're having this conversation is kind of shows where modern parenting and fathers are is like we could have this conversation. Yeah. And I think like it's a good thing. 100%. what do you think besides the record, the new record, which I agree with cash, best record. Thank you. I think it's your best record.

It has all of this, like I said, God, the guitar work on it is so good. All of the programming on it's good. The songwriting's good. Aside from the record, what's the other thing you feel like you guys are working on that you care about the most? I think there's, we're very influenced to get back in there to make more music. So, wow. Caring about that.

Just because, like, honestly, the couple records, like I said, the 100 Gex record really got a fire lit under our ass. It sounds crazy. But you feel like maybe you also cracked something with this new record, like creatively, you cracked open a new. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you guys got a new muscle or something. Yeah, once you crack that code a little bit, it's like, oh, there's a lot of things we can do it.

It's a new palette to paint with. I think so. And then I also, I'm really happy with the bands, the live show we're putting together and also implementing blockchain into all the stuff we're doing. You guys are the leaders on that. You're the only ones. Yeah, sometimes we're the only ones, though. I know, but like, you have to keep doing it because that is the future.

Yeah. And you guys are just the ones that have the balls to do it and way ahead of everyone else. And I think that, like, it speaks to your, it's just like, we don't give a fuck. we're going to do what we think we need to what we want to do. This is our vision. And I think that you're doing it really well. You're still bringing everyone along. Everybody who can't understand blockchain can still buy your tickets, can still interact with your band.

But the people who are going into it with you, they get a little bit more. They get a different experience that I think is meaningful. And I think that like you're doing it exactly like how I think smart people. would navigate building a new thing out that hasn't been done. Yeah, it's such a learning experience for us, honestly, because it's like there was a lot of pushback in the beginning. And then you see like the macro sort of environment plays so much into people's understanding or want to understand. Right. Like you get really mixed signals from people. One simple thing is like, oh, it's a scam. These don't do anything for you. And then now people are mad that they're doing

too much for people. It's like, okay, well, which one is it? Is this too much? Is it like, and then you have people that just, they're so cynical. They think that every intention we have is like to get more money out of them. Yeah, everything's a, yeah. I come up against that too. Yeah. Like everyone who, like, there's a cynicism to the world that like everything I do is a big, like most of the shit I do, you make zero dollars doing it. I just like doing it. Yeah. That's why I want to do it. Yeah. And then there's things. things I do make money on. And like, and so it's interesting because like, which one would you accept better? Will you laugh at that thing I make no money on because it's not big enough?

Or will you hate on the thing that I do make money on because it's too big or it's too this? So which way can I make money? You're not allowed to. Yeah. And, you know, the thing that was interesting with like Ticket Pass, which we launched today was I was looking at a problem in the world. And I, I know Rapino and I know David Marcus and those guys. And I know they want to help artists figure out a way. Yeah, they do. To navigate this. So when I saw that problem and I put my blockchain brain on and I said, well, people are going too far with it right now. They're trying to turn everything into NFT tickets. Right. Not going to work. So many problems with scalability and internet going down and actually having your wallets on hand. And we're just not there yet. We're not there yet. So my idea was like,

well, why don't we just make a token that token gates the purchase of the tickets? And then we know you buy tickets the same way you've always had, but now we know if you have a token, you can get X, Y, and Z, and we can turn off bad actors tokens, we can do all these things. So we implemented this thing purely because I saw a problem in the market. And I know that our pit tickets and our front row stuff goes really quick. And then I see a bunch of them for resale. Now, I don't want to take away fans' ability to resell tickets. I think it's kind of un-American.

I think if you have something, then you usually. should be able to resell it if you want. But a lot of the fans wouldn't resell it. So the idea is get the tokens into the biggest fans' hands. And the way I came up with that was, let's do a rewards program. People are buying shirts. If they're listening to the music, we'll drop them tokens and tear them up. Seems simple enough.

But people think that this came out of, now you're trying to get us to buy t-shirts. Yeah, now. Now you're trying to get us to do I need to switch over to Spotify because you won't count title? And it's like, no, no, no, no. Just do what you do, and we will find you. We just want to make sure that if you are a big fan, we don't want to see that little spinny resale thing on the front tickets. We're trying to get them into your hands.

And if you want to sell them fine, but you're a fan at that point. But it just becomes, it comes back so cynical that you guys are just trying to do this to us. You're trying to do X, Y, and Z. It's like, no, I just saw a problem. And there's a technology there. It didn't invent anything. Just two things that already existed and just said, let's do this. And that's innovation is absolutely going to come and comes from artistic and creative people.

Yes. Because they look at things slightly different and they go, I'm not inventing anything new. I'm just innovating how it's done. Yes. And I'm taking this and putting this in front of this instead of that. That might work together. Yeah. I think that's, again, that just speaks to, you know, who you guys are and what you've been doing and why all the records.

In my opinion, they just get better and better. And the new one was worth the weight. and it's interesting because I know you guys been working on it a long time, but it's cool to think that you want to make a record so soon because that means you hit something creatively that feels like it's not scary right now. Yeah, it's not scary right now.

It's like, okay, like I think that we can take this somewhere and it'll still feel different enough from what we just did. Yeah, I can't wait to hear it. Yeah, me too. I can't wait to see the show. Me too. Me fun. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me, dude. It was great. That was fun. All right. Hey, thank you for. listening to artist friendly. I'll see you next week.