Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Matthew Koma of Winnetka Bowling League

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Matthew Koma of Winnetka Bowling League. Winnetka Bowling League — a rising indie trio comprising Koma, drummer Kris Mazzarisi, and keyboardist Sam Beresford — are readying the arrival of their long-awaited debut album, Sha La La (out May 31). They’ve already shared the hugely catchy title track, which yearns for days that are long gone in hyperspecific detail, and are preparing for a couple of gigs supporting Waterparks this week. Then they’ll head out on their own headliner — dubbed the “Tourgasm” — with a slew of special guests across the U.S., which runs until late July. You can see all the dates and grab tickets here. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's going to be hard to take you seriously during this. I know. I know. I know. I know, but try. I will. Try a little bit. Because we have serious talks.

So I know we're not going to have too serious of a talk here. Let's go deep. This will probably be my favorite episode yet. That's big break. So everybody listening, they probably don't even know. We're like best friends. Yeah, we're in a trouble. I'm not going to say I'm your best friend because I know you have a couple other best friends.

No, you're there. I don't want to like a. No, no, no. offend any of your other my other best friends are listening and they're all girls you could have everything in the will what's that you could have everything in the will yeah we're very close friends now but we met when you were like 17 yeah yeah you guys were a band and i was in a bad band that got signed i guess my senior year of high school one republic yeah and we went on to have a lot of success.

Yeah. Once you left. It took a minute to click once. I was replaced. We were replaced by Ryan Teter. I was. Yeah. Band camp was the name of our band,

which was so fucking bad and so embarrassing. But somebody with power like Dar Songs and decided to give us a record deal when I was like, I guess, yeah, 16 or 17. And then they introduced us to work together. Yeah. With you and Bench. And then we worked on that first. record. Yeah, we actually did. We worked together for probably what a month? Yeah. Mostly Ben,

and pretty much stayed in touch. Yeah. With little pauses since then, but for the most part, like, we never really lost touch. At least like if I wasn't talking to you a ton, I'd be talking to Benj or Josh or whatever. Yeah. One thing I'll say is every now and then in music, you meet good people and you go, oh, they're like a real person and you connect. Totally. And then you're like, oh, I could be, like, you become friends with people. I think I was a little. little young to have that radar yet. I did about you. I was like, oh, and he's, you were also like super talented, like your songwriting and you have

like, like, you're you. So you have like a, you just have a vibe. That's very kind. But. It's true. I definitely, that's why you got signed. I look back at whether or not that band was the right thing. Yeah, no, it's terrible.

You know how these things work out. But like the songs were there. The talent was there. And you go, oh, there's, that's a real one. He's going to make it. like somehow, some way. And then you did go on to have tons of success. And now your career is, you know, Winneka Bowling League.

The best version of a band you could be in is that. But it took band camp and the things you did in between to get to Winneca. So that's all the growth arc and the development of an artist. You can't, you don't know when things grow and become like fully blossomed and fully grown, but that you did with this band and you guys have an incredible catalog and great songs. So we weren't wrong about it. It's funny, I think starting this band was definitely that, oh, I'm going to do the thing

that I've always wanted to do. Yeah. I always want to do the, you know, the thing that you don't have to make excuses for. I actually just think the thing that you're fully in control of. But I still feel like after any significant amount of time from releasing music. it still becomes something you're somewhat embarrassed or apologetic of. Like already, even though this started is the thing of like, this is going to be the thing where we make no decisions that aren't in favor of just the music being read or whatever

the thing is. And it still sort of ends up being something. You're like, oh, I'm kind of in ways as embarrassed of it as it was band camp 20 years ago, whatever it is. Yeah, I just think that's you. Totally. Yeah, it's my own stuff. Because what I see band camp where you still.

started was you trying without knowing how good you were or knowing what this whole thing was. And then you go through a career of success. And success, however you want to measure success, success in music, we could say, you know, hit songs, writing hit songs. Yeah. Or, you know, getting paid to make, and making a living, doing music, right? Totally. Producing writing.

It never really comes exactly how you thought it would. I think that's it. That's it. for some people and I think in the best case scenario it does where you you or at least from the outside you watch somebody's career and you're like oh they were kind of always doing the thing they were doing and then it looks perfect and then it worked and it clicked and it was perfect and now they're being honored for the thing that's their truth and sometimes that's true and and pieces of that I think remain true even for me but it certainly doesn't feel like that because because you're

right I think sometimes you have these doors that open and you decide to walk through them because why not? And then you're you're sort of looking around even with success saying how and why am I here. I believe you came into the music business at a young age with a really good idea and a really like pure heart of like, I'm going to do this. But the music business is not for kids. It is a fucking adult world where you get hard truths and you don't even know the behind the scenes of what's really going on. Like they're saying, we work the record. It didn't work. And you're like, you know, they either didn't work the record. Yeah.

Or they ran out of money or some other record started. Or 800,000 things. There's a bunch of things that could go wrong and you are not in control of any of them. Not one. And then you get like this heartbreak. Usually all of us have that. Oh, yeah. I can still remember like getting the phone call of being dropped for the first time. Yeah.

And not really even taking it in a way of, oh man, I'm sad, but taking it a way of, okay, I can't let my bandmates down. So I got to figure this out and how to spin it. I was like 18. Yeah. Like I got to spin this and figure out how I'm going to make it feel like it's a good thing so we can keep putting gas in the tank and keep driving down whatever this road is. Keep trying to climb the mountain. But now you look back on that and you probably go,

that was the best thing that ever happened to me. Thank God. I think. 100%. I mean, I can't even imagine a world in which the first thing that we did worked and then that becomes the thing. Yeah. And again, that's the case for a lot of people and it's awesome

because you build on whatever you can build on. think is the truth. Yeah. If it works the first thing out of the gates, great. You'll figure it out later and how to shape it. I couldn't have written a better script the way your life is played out because when I look at your life, I'm like, oh, this guy has everything. He's got it worked out. He's got a family, got a career, does whatever the fuck he wants, doesn't give a fuck. That's how it feels from the outside. And certainly I know you well enough. I care a lot about the work. You care about the music, the song, but I'm saying you're not chasing. some you're not chasing fame you I just know you well enough to know yeah that you're free from

a lot of the things that a lot of people struggle with a lot of people struggle with I need another hit yeah I need to stay relevant relevant relevant relevant relevant you know whatever that means the elusive fame thing that people think matters or I think that might have been worth something one of the good things about being exposed to such a I don't know exaggerated version of it early on an a young age was getting the peak behind the curtain really early and being like, oh, it's nothing. It's nothing and I actually don't like that party. I think that was healthy in a weird way, where sometimes I know that has the opposite

effect where it kind of makes you hungrier for that thing or whatever. But yeah, not without work to get to that place, but I do feel really lucky that I get to work on stuff and make stuff that I think is cool. And it matters. Work with cool, cool artists. You make, I mean, I said this to you, and I've said it to a bunch of people. You're hands down, pound for pound, the best producer, writer. That's ridiculous.

That I've ever worked with. Because I'm light, because, like, I don't weigh that much? No, just in just what you can, what you, metaphorically speaking. Don't weigh that much. No, I don't mean that you're skinny, but you are. So there's not a lot to love to. I also wish I was your. your stature because you have a nice lean good mix of lean it's just um lactose intolerant yeah well

you when when you can't do you're skating but you also have lean muscle mass so that's a really good place to be that's genetics yeah it is i don't have those genetics my dad is jacked he's not jacked he's a lean he's diabetic so that keeps him lean yeah it's in check though so you learn to live that way even though you're not diabetic Yeah, I follow a diabetic diet. Yeah. But I'm perfectly not diabetic. But yeah, so you're one of the best I've ever encountered.

And I've been, you know, I've been able to work with some really great producers. And I just, like, put you on the top, in my top five. That's beyond kind. For being able to write music and melody and produce. It's just really hard to find someone that can do it and be diverse about it. I think if there's anything that I have confidence in, and why I started writing songs to begin with. It's like, I really like words.

I like stories. I like, for lack of a better term, the poetry of it. And all the other stuff we sort of learned as a function of just being the vehicle for it. Because I remember I was signed to Interscope for a while. And really early on before I had any hits or any songs were Jimmy Iveen offered me a producer deal. He's like, I just want to lock you in so you could produce a bunch of stuff for Interscope. I remember thinking I'm like, I've never produced anything. Like that's that's insane.

And sure enough, like the path would reveal itself over the next year or whatever, that that would become a necessity just based on some of the encounters of people I was working with or the sessions that were set up. So I feel like all of that stuff just became a need more than a want. I never was like, I can't wait to produce records when I get older. Like that wasn't the thing. It was sort of just, well, if I have these songs that I want to write and record in my parents' house, I should learn how to use Pro Tools.

And then it's like, okay, I guess I should get a better mic. and it just, it sort of, it sort of just becomes a ladder, you know? Well, that's the natural progression of a talented person. Because a lot of people are like, I just, me included, by the way, I can't produce. I can't. Well, produce has also become such a different word in the past whatever years. Like you can, you're very good at a broad stroke vision of like this ticks a box, you know, and that's different from like what a producer has become, which is the technical look.

I'm going to sit down and engineer everything and edit everything. And like, that's. I can prove. I could, what I, because I'm a little old school and what my idea of producing is, is you have to be able to record. Right. Music. And then get the music into. Yeah.

And actually be able to do it from the live instrument into the computer. Totally. As opposed to just sitting on the computer and making sounds. Yeah. So I'm a little old school like that. Not that I dismiss any of these producers today that are incredible producers. Dismiss them. Who don't you like?

You would love. that wouldn't you? So I'm in your top five producers. Bottom? Bottom three? I don't tend to focus on things I don't like. Oh, okay. I'm different from you.

Yeah, I focus mostly on the thing. I actually get more joy from bad music. I'm not kidding. I get so much more joy from bad music and bad videos. It's one of the things I want to talk about. Like it does something to me that you love, you love bad music. But I don't know. Look, we all have to have some.

interaction with social because it's a part of running our businesses, right? And that's how I look at it anyways. And I think that at the core of people, we want to share. We do actually want to share like if I can share, I don't share a lot about my kids, but I want to. Yeah. And I try to do it in a way if I do, I don't do it a lot, but I want to do it. But I'm also terrified that I'll endanger them if I say the wrong thing or I'll

embarrass them or whatever. So especially with teenagers. So you think I'm a bad parent because I post my kids? No, because when mine were younger, I posted more. It's more the older. When they get older, they get more sensitive about it. Sensitive and they become their own person and you're less, you have less of a say of what the world knows about them. And I think 12, 13, it changes.

It's like, like, they start going like, dad, don't post my birthday. I don't want to know how proud you are. You can tell me. You don't have to tell everybody. But you're proud of them and you want to. share it which is yeah it is a weird exercise and selfish and even thinking about when I do it I'm just like I guess but that I like it I love following you and I love it when you post about your

family because I love your family yeah and I just know that I do too they're cool they're cool and you guys have done this thing they are you guys have this really you have a family that you hope that families are having this experience and I've gotten to like Hank I get to see your real life and then I see your social life and it's, you did leave out the part that we're also neighbors. We're neighbors. So we hang out a lot. We hang out a lot. Yeah, but wives are friends. Our wives are best friends. It's like a whole thing. Yeah, it's a whole world. That's how I got on the podcast. That's how you got on the podcast. It's like, um, it's nepotism. Yeah. Yeah. What's nepotism? I'm your nepo baby. Yeah, I'm Joel's nepo baby. Nicole's your nepo baby. She's my goddaughter.

He is. So we have all these inside jokes and we have like real family bonds. But the things that I tend to like get inspired by are people sharing things that I think other people should see because it gives them something to aim at. Whether you feel that way or not about your family, I do because most families aren't functioning and you guys function. You guys have a functional most days. I don't think I think. maybe to a fault too much about what I put on social media. It's not like, it's definitely not an overthought thing. It's like, I know. It's sort of an extension, maybe even in a bad way of just like, I don't think it's bad. Just sharing, whatever. But I think you're wild sometimes. Like, I'll, I'll even say like, Matt. Yeah. But my wife has, she gets three times a year to censor it, to be like, you got to take that time right. You get three cards a year. Yeah. So, but part of that feels really free to me. It feels like you don't put too much thought. You'll share a real thought that happened when you think something's kind of funny or something's bad or good or whatever.

You tend to like the guy you got the cat from in Texas. You're just nervous. I love that guy. You're just posting your text conversation with this. Well, because it's such an odd. Sweet guy in Texas. He's so nice. Yeah. It was such an odd experience. And while while doing it in real time, basically my daughter really wanted this hypoallergenic cat that was impossible to find. And I found a guy in the internet that had one in Texas. And you literally flew to Texas the next day.

He's like, if you come the next day, if you come tomorrow, you can have this cat. I'm like two hours outside of Austin. I'm like, great. So I'm booking a flight. And while I'm doing this, I'm thinking like, this is crazy. Like, I don't know.

By the way, context, like the day before, I totally got ripped off and got scammed out of another version of this cat. So I was like, now really going to hunt. Like you sent a deposit and then they just like, never got a bad. Yeah, just like complete shady, whatever. So animal dealers can be feeling like an idiot and really wanting to get her. She's had her heart on this. Our other neighbor has this cat.

So that's how it kind of hit her radar. Now she's obsessed and wanted it. It's a great cat. I thought it was a bad idea until I met the cat. I love the cat. It's still a terrible idea, but I do love her. I only call her Jervis, which is the name of the guy. we got him from anyway i thought it was an interesting thing to i was by myself so i thought it was an

interesting story to um capture in real time which was going and meeting this guy at the austin airport hoping he wouldn't kill me yeah and he turned out to be a really lovely guy yeah but then of course i took it too far and i'm i'm like miss you jervis like wish we spent more time together and he's like we'll have lunch next time you're in town and i actually will for sure i know you well. Yeah. And you'll probably post pictures of you and Jervis. Yeah, I mean, like when Hill leaves me, I'll probably live with Jervis.

Yeah. I'll probably just get an apartment. Bunk up with Jervis, whatever he is. Yeah. I think he's on a farm. He has space for me. Just get an RV. Yeah, and just plug into his power.

Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah. I think you and Nicole are like twin flames. Nicole Kidman? Nicole, my wife. Oh, okay. It's confused for a second.

I think you guys are like identical twins. Like how we look. No, the way you behave and the way you see the world. Yeah. And the things that amuse you. Yeah, she gets tickled by the same dumb stuff that I do. Yeah. Like you'll post some wild shit and she's like, oh yeah, I would have done that.

Yeah. She would have. Like you're ongoing. She's a little more involved. I think she's more, she's a little more front of. I think we've, so we've been together for 18 years this year. and I think that I tend to like temper her wild side sometimes when she's like about to say something or yeah like because she loves to shock people yeah yeah she loves to like amuse herself really just amuse

herself I think okay I think that's what it is it's just amusing yourself yeah like things that tickle you by the way there's stuff that'll crack me up sometimes that hill or my friend nobody will get it and they're like this is so dumb or it's just like shocking or it's like I'm I'm like more worried about the person. Totally. I'm more worried about the person. Yeah. Because I'm like,

I know she doesn't have any, like she loves the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's not ever. Yeah, yeah, of course. She's just like entertaining herself. That's all it ever is. I know,

I know, but it's real freedom. Yeah. There's real freedom in it. But, um, well, I think also being like,

whatever the age bracket we are and stuff, we were brought up during this time that if you had a job that was in music or in entertainment, there was this expectation of like, like, remember, like, media training was a term when we were coming up. Oh, yeah. So you can learn how to talk to media. And it's like, what? There's, it still is.

That's insane to think that there's these, like, rules around how you present yourself because you can't be yourself. So I think, like, growing up in the era of that, of such this controlled environment of what you're allowed to say, how you're allowed to say it, just the politics of everything. And also just even how much things have changed, right? It used to be like, well, in the context of music, labels run everything. So if you piss somebody off at a label, like kiss your career goodbye. Yeah.

And now everything's so democratized where it's like nothing really matters. There's something you post on your phone right now could work on the internet tomorrow. And now you're the powerful person. So I think there's freedom in that and be able to play with that and be like, oh, nobody really has my number. Yeah. And after years of feeling like you're always sort of, I want to step on the wrong toe, it's kind of nice to just fucking step on the toes. Yeah. I think that's absolutely your generation.

It just tickles me. What is that? That's millennials. Gen Z. No, you're not Gen Z. I'm a Gen Z. Gen Z. Yeah, Gen Z.

I'm a millennial. Gen Z. Yeah. You're a millennial. That's kind of the cool thing about what you guys have built. It's very much like you and yours, you know? And it just grows slowly over time. And I'm happy with that.

But also, like, not that it won't. But even if it didn't, it sort of just becomes a quality of life thing at a certain point and a certain age where you're like, I don't care. Like I don't care about having the biggest song in the world. No. Like I've had that. I haven't been happier from it. Obviously there's privilege that comes with that that I'm grateful for.

But I'm definitely not like that's what I'm chasing again and again and again. And at least creatively, I feel like that's a good place to be sometimes where you're no longer feeling like, this has to work. It's like, it's cool if this thing works, but maybe it'll be that thing. or maybe it'll be some other thing I haven't even thought of yet or some new kind of medium that I'm getting involved in or whatever it is. That's why I like Winneka so much. Because it feels like you just put out stuff you like.

Yeah, you know. It doesn't feel like it's trying to be. I feel like there was a period in the middle, which sounds funny because we've only been a band for like four or five years. But there was a moment of like, ooh, it's starting to kind of connect with people and you become a little conscious of it. I feel like that happens to a lot of artists where you become conscious of who it's working with and why it's working. And not that you want to cater to it, but the consciousness comes in the room with you.

And I hated that. So I feel like with this album, with this new record, at least for now, I'm sure I'll hate it in two years, like actually not be able to stomach hearing it and feel embarrassed and humiliated by it. That's typically my relationship with songs I've worked on. But at least for now, I do feel like it went through that initial test of, only making it because I think it's cool and I don't really care if anybody else thinks it's cool. That's how the new music feels.

I think they're the best songs of your life. Even the songs no one else has heard, the songs you sent me that I'm like, this is the best shit you've ever written. Yeah, I mean, it feels really strange to say, but I'm 36, I still kind of feel like I'm at the starting line. It always kind of feels that way

and I think I set it up to be that way where I always feel like I'm taking on something that's new enough that I have to learn it again and I have to prove myself again. And that keeps it exciting for me. Not that that'll last forever, but I do very much feel... This is also, it's crazy because I've been in record deal since I'm 17. This is the first album I'm ever putting out.

Every artist, every band, every project, different sets of circumstances work for them. At this point in our career and my career, it feels really good to just sort of control the domain and control the ball and do what feels good without having to consider anyone else. I think so much of my previous life of like writing for a ton of artists, especially in the dance space, it was so collaborative that it always felt like you're having to be considerate of somebody else's vision and somebody else's feeling and somebody else's where they want to hit the target. And it feels good to arrive at a place where it's like, oh, I want to hit the target there.

And it's for me. So I can. And I'm not having to take into consideration another artist or somebody else who's funding it. And again, it's very privileged to be in that position, to be. able to make your own music and be in control of it, but it does feel pretty fucking good to not have to talk to anybody on the phone about it. I couldn't imagine it any other way for you. I cannot imagine you on like a label call. The truth of the matter is that a lot of times we have these interactions that aren't really true. You're on with the label and they're

telling you the plan and I mean you could have just emailed that to me oh my gosh at this age I'm like just tell me tell me the plan and then I'll mark it up I don't know how 99% of the people have jobs it's just like what do you what do you you're stirring your stirring soup that's in a pot that has a stirring mechanism in it already I don't understand I don't understand the redundancy a lot of it is is just that's how it always was so and you're trained to think that that's actually how it works. Well, because it did. To a certain degree, go back 10 years ago, 15 years ago,

when your band was putting out records in the beginning of it, like there was a such thing as radio. There was a such thing as TV. There was some organization to the chaos to make a splash, whereas now quite literally most of the records I produce, the artist will show me their marketing plan from their label, whether it's major or indie, whatever, and it's like, these are the TikTok trends.

Or this is the thing. kind of. Which, by the way, is fine because that's just what we're living in to a degree. And of course, it's different for every artist and some artists can work within that world and make it work for them. And others, like, operate outside of that. And that's all good. But point being is to take as much of a cut and to take as much power creatively as they do for as little as it could provide now is wild. Yeah. It's crazy. That's the thing about being independent that I like is stripping down all of the kind of unnecessary stuff.

Getting to the work and realizing like the work is, it's different every album, but it's the same. It really comes down to budgets of like, do we have half a million dollars to spend? And then how are we going to spend it? And then actually trying to employ the money in the promotional ways that make a difference and move the needle. And you can do that right.

There's a way to do it. But there's also a way to waste a lot of money or to say we're spending on this. Well, there's a way to do all of that, and it's still not work, and there's a way to not do all of that, and the music's really good, so it connects.

Which is usually what it comes down to. Typically it is, especially now where I think everybody's so flooded with volume. It's good stuff. Yeah, it's like the good stuff has to be really good, or it has to be just this sort of, you know, small community that's there and dedicated regardless of its,

commercial appeal. Like our band, our thing is not like, we need to have a hit song. So we have fans. It's like, we have our base and it's small, but it's growing and we get to keep building it, and get to keep playing shows and talking to those people. And we want that community to continue to build. And it's sort of not related to anything outside of that little globe. Like this is the globe in which our band is and our world is and our music is and our fans are. And hopefully that gets bigger, but it certainly can't operate conscious of like everything going on around it. There's just too much.

But also, like shalala is, for me, it's like a song that'll live. Just let it live. It's a great song. And it also is like, I know I'm going to hear it in a car commercial or in a, I'm going to hear it places because it's that kind of song. It's just let it live. And that's a little bit lost, I think, these days of putting art out and letting it live. Versus totally.

How's it doing every week? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And instead of going like, no, this is a really fucking good song. I find myself going back to it. I don't even care what happens. And I don't just say that. Of course, I care about the music. And of course, I care about the stuff I make.

But it is mine. And my best experience with it is, when I'm in the room and it's happening and I'm excited about it and I know it's good and I'm chasing it and I'm trying to crack the code. That's the best. That's all it is. The second that it becomes more than that and somebody else hears it and it becomes cool, let's shoot a video for it or let's figure out art for it. It's not fun for me anymore. Further, once it comes out, it's completely out of my control what it means to people, what it does, if five people hear it, five thousand people hear it, whatever the thing is. So I think like divorcing that experience of, yeah, it's out.

have forgotten about it. Like, people are having their experience with it, whether that's 100,000 people or 20 million people in five years. Like, I think it's really important to sort of not be that guy that's like checking Spotify artist for, the app for artists or whatever and like keeping such close tabs because it really, it's irrelevant to the work you're doing. I feel that too. Or at least in a negative way for me, it's like if I'm paying attention to that, then I'm

taking cues from that. And why the fuck am I taking cues from like, some algorithm if it got played because of X, Y, Z. You know, it just, it doesn't make, it doesn't make sense for protecting the thing that you actually really care about. I feel the same way. I didn't always feel that way. Same, by the way.

I used to, like, think that, that, how the song was performing really, like, mattered. Matter to the grand scheme. And actually, it doesn't. Oh, my God. More, me liking it now is way more important than. If I played you my 10 favorite songs out right now, they're probably, all songs that have streamed less than two million times. And it's not because it's like, I have this obscure taste.

I actually have pretty pop taste so far as songs go. What's your favorite song out right now? There's a song called Universe by Onica Bennett. Okay, I don't know it. That's incredible. Okay. My friend Taylor showed it to me, and it totally blew my mind. Petey, who you had on the show.

Put out a song like two years ago that I still talk about because I love it that much called Don't Tell the Boys. Yeah. It's a good song. It's so good. The words are so fucking good. He's funny. He's really funny. He's funny, but he's really good at music. And I feel like a lot of people know he's funny and less know how fucking good he is it. That's why I had him on the show because I like his music. It's so good. I mean, I think he's really funny. Yeah. I just think he's interesting. He is. He's just like such an interesting guy. Didn't you guys like invest in his wife's fish company?

Yeah, fish wife. Yeah. Plug. Plug fish wife. Go go to your grocery store. door right now. Get yourself some sardines. Get some tin fish. Yeah, his we actually haven't met Petey. We've hung with his wife. She's, she's awesome. And they're a cool couple. It seems like they kind of operate in what we're talking about. They just do stuff that they think is cool for them. Yeah, he's an interesting guy. Yeah, I don't know him. I just, I know what I've seen. And I think he's very unique. He's really nice. I've never met anyone like him. I don't think. Yeah. Like so hot? Super hot. He has really nice hair.

Good hair, great hair. By the way, great hair. I know, great hair. You have great hair too. Thanks. It's a wig. It takes so many hours in the morning to get it put on and so many people. He's just unique.

I don't know. He's one of a kind. Yeah, he's really cool. When does this episode air? April 5th. April 5th. April 3rd. The episode, okay, I'm not going to have, I don't think I'm going to have testicles anymore on April 3rd.

I'm getting a vasectomy. Are you? Yeah. When? Monday. This Monday? Yeah. So by the time this airs, I won't have testicles.

You're like four kids is enough. Yeah, I don't need to. I need, yeah, I shouldn't procreate more than that. Yeah, and you guys did really well. Your kids are amazing. I don't know how this new one's going to be. I don't either. But the others are great.

I did a consult yesterday and he sold me on it. Did you do it over Zoom? We did a Zoom console. What did he say? He was really impressed with the, size. He said, you're crazy.

He said he's never seen anything that big on his scream before. And I said, well, that I'm flattered, but also a little concerned that maybe you won't know what to do with that then. Because if you've done all these surgeries, but you've never dealt with testicles of this size or nature, will you know how to operate on them? Are you going to feel a new sense of freedom? Like with just having a penis and not having testicles? Yes.

I was a little confused about that. Do they take the actual testicles away? No. Okay. I thought I was going to just be no... No. Yeah. You know that.

No. Not until they show me the charts. I believe they're just clipping like a tube or tying a tube. So that's happening Monday. Oh, wow. Yeah. But I'm really fertile today as we record this. Tons of fertilization.

Are you going to save any just in case? Like for friends, like in case... No, I don't think anyone's interested in my shit. Become a dinner. I'd be pretty sick. Yeah. Like 70 years old just start giving them out. And nobody wants my kids, dude.

I don't know. Your kids are great. My kids are awesome. Nobody wants my unprocessed kids that don't involve my wife. Right. Yeah. You guys got the recipe right. Yeah.

They're like 95% her. Yeah. And like... That's how I feel about mine. Yeah. They're all her. All the good stuff is her. It's 100%.

You know. There's things sometimes they do that or me, and it's like, oof. Actually, like, get anxious and feel guilty that I've passed that on. Yeah, we got lucky. Started therapy. Better help. Okay. You heard about that?

Yeah. Going really well. I really like my guy, but he did. What have you learned about yourself? I don't know. It's like my 19th therapist. I think at this point, it's just like a nice. my wife was pretty much like you have to go to fucking therapy that's how i started therapy my wife

was like Nicole was like you got to go to therapy yeah she's like but this was like 12 years ago yeah i mean that'll be me in 12 years yeah so i like him a lot he's really good i like the whole better help app thing okay so it's all online it's all online it's all zoom there is a lag that's pretty annoying okay um they need to improve the platform yeah um and my guy i really like him but he did you could text through the app and he texted me this like very long story about seeing the grateful dead and they probably think that's cool you do music i think there's a little bit of that going on um and then i feel like i have to respond i think you should find somebody in person in la that you like i think you should keep looking while you get while you open up the pandora's box of therapy

which is yeah there's so many different styles and different people so it's a really fun journey to be on I love it. I never miss therapy. I don't want to drive. I have therapy today at five. Oh yeah. You love your therapist. I love, man. My therapist changed my life. You make decisions in life now, and then you go, why did I do that? And it doesn't matter good or bad. You got these chairs because they look cool?

Yeah, and they kind of hide me. Not for comfort, huh? You don't find them comfortable? No, they're good. Actually, I've never tried that. Yeah, try it in a little. Hey, that's a new. that's a new position.

It's good. Yeah. You'll see how the camera reads it. You'll see if you like it. Are you changing the subject off therapy? No, no, no. I love to. Therapy's great.

This show is like therapy for me. Yeah, totally. Every time I talk to someone, I pick something up. Because we all have our own perspective and our own journey. And talking to you is cool because I know you and Hillary well enough to know like who you guys really are. And so I have insight into like your life. So I know when you tell me something, I can feel the truth in it.

But we've also never had a conversation. We've had tons of these conversations, but we've never had it on tape. So you want to start filming our coffee in the morning? Maybe. Yeah, yeah. We go to coffee like at least once a week. At least once a week. But sometimes three.

If we get into a good rhythm, yeah, yeah. A great week is three coffees with you. It's usually like a post kid drop off. Post kid drop off, midweek exhaustion. Is this going to work out? Why? Why? Why am I doing this?

Yeah. My wife's mad at me for something I didn't even really like, I don't understand. I'm not smart enough to understand it. And you always, I think we both take on the perspective of like when there's those moments that every, I think every married person, forget guy, girl. Everybody is working. It's all work somehow. And it takes effort and it takes showing up. and it takes years and years of stacking.

It's like one day at a time, one week at a time, one month at a time. You stack these years together. How long are you guys married? 14 years? 14 years. Yeah. That's a long time. Yeah.

This is five years. It's crazy. It feels like longer for some reason. Yeah. Me too sometimes. No. It's, uh, yeah. It's crazy to learn how to allow somebody else to live with you is almost the craziest

part of it. And you're in the business of like running a life like the kids the house the and then you both are working and then you're working the schedules out and you're you're actually trying to be there at all your kid stuff and you're trying to work and it's like it takes a lot of work. Were you saying you go to your kid stuff? Yeah I do. Oh we have we do nannies go to everything. Yeah. We just um no you're in like Temecula. Dude 99% of like Sunday. I'm like at 10 a.m. I'm like, what are you doing in Temecula at 10 a.m? Our life is mostly, currently it's mostly run by soccer. Yeah. Because our oldest is crushing it and he plays on a league. So we're always just at soccer, which it's the first time my life I've ever gotten to a sport because he's

into it, which has been really cool because it's a bond for us, but also I just never got into sports. It's always just the music nerd. So you're learning a little bit too. Learning a ton, actually really care about it. That's how I feel about Sparrow's like baseball. It's such a gift. Yeah. Like we play FIFA all the time too, and I was not a video game kid, so like both of those things are such... Do you play on the PlayStation? I bought you? No, that's going to be for... Have you opened that yet?

I did open it, but that's going to be for Fortnite? Is that what we're doing on it? I mean, Fortnite or Hell Divers. Oh, you're playing Hell Divers? Yeah. Nick finally talks. Wow. No, we're guest up right now on Hell Divers.

Hell Divers is it. Oh, we're tapped in, man. For democracy. Do you get your rail gun yet? What's that? I got to play more video games. Yes, I got that. I'm trying to get to the guard dog.

I'm not level 10 yet. I need the guard dog. I'm like level 8. I should be at level 10 today. Okay, okay. I'm planning on planning on dedicating two hours tonight to play hill divers. I got to play more games. I don't feel like I do anything for myself.

You work a lot, but... Just work and kids. But once you have teenagers, you get... get time back. Yeah, yeah, totally. That makes sense. 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock at night, they don't want me. No, no, no, no.

They don't want to hang out. You have, you have an hour. And I have, like, I got, I get like a couple hours back. Nicole's probably sleep or reading. Nicole is in bed by 8. She's reading or asleep. Yeah. 30 reading or doing whatever.

Like, so you get more time, at least like one or two nights a week. I can play a video game. And I never could for like 12 years, 13 years. The idea right now with three kids and a fourth on the way. and their schedules of having absolutely any time to do anything is so foreign and crazy. Like when you'll hit me on a Saturday and be like, I'm doing XYZ, we should, whatever. I'm like, I've been up for six hours and I haven't made one decision for myself. You can have it like five every morning.

I do. I'm a fiverer. Your personal time is what, five to six 30? Six-15. Okay. Yeah. It's a really not a lot of. No. By the way, I would not have it any other way.

Yeah. It's the absolute best. Yeah, you and Hillary are like... But it's crazy. And by the way, like... Deep in parenting. Hill does 99% of the planning and the logistics of it. On the board in the kitchen.

Oh, yeah, we do have that thing. What's that thing called? It's called a hearth. Yeah, Nicole sent it to me. She sent a link to me. It's pretty cool. Hillary uses this and it works really well. And I'm like, hon...

It's cool. Get it if you want to get it. Yeah. You have to run that. Yeah. If you want a calendar in the kitchen. That's it. Like, I actually still don't think I have access to edit our family calendar, which will probably be like that forever.

Yeah. But no, that's, that credit is definitely given given to her in terms of, I don't think our kids ever have a moment to be bored. There's always an activity or a thing scheduled or a something, which is rad because then I get to like be an Uber driver. And now my daughter teaches your daughter at dance once a week. I just heard that's brand new. That's breaking news. We got that news from my daughter, Banks. She came home very excited that Kate is a TA.

Yeah, it's probably like the three names I know, Chloe, Gabby, and Kylie probably. Those are the three names that all of her friends are one of those three names. The dance scene is crazy. It's crazy. The dance, your daughters and dance scene? Yeah, it's dance moms. It's wild. We just did our first competition in Anaheim.

Yep. That was- You guys were all there together. Yeah. Nicole was there. Correct. I'm not allowed to go now. I used to go up until she was like 14.

And then she stopped me from going because she said no dads are there, which is not true. There's dads there. There's dads. As they get older, less dads are there. Yeah, I get that. I think all the girls feel this way. To your defense also. my daughter did one dance because she's five.

Yeah, you wait around for eight hours. Kate was doing like this thing and that thing and she's with friends. It's like a different experience. But just being dropped into that world without having any previous experience in it, it's crazy. It's culture shock. Yeah. It's wild.

The moms with, it's wild. It's like, I know that there's a TV show about it. I've just never seen it. And I'm sure it's everything. There is. There is. And it's funny. but also like I kind of want to tell the parent was so I never want to tell a parent how to parent

because every it's actually all coming from a good place I want to be there I watch her on the live stream I want to watch her do what she loves to do yeah and I want her to know how important it is to me that what she cares about I care about she doesn't want me there because she only wants Nicole there because I also think that maybe I embarrass me. her if I'm too affectionate or I know isn't that funny you think in your narrative when you're younger you're going to be cool parent I thought I was going to be so cool you're so uncool it's unbelievable and it usually comes down to like respecting your respecting the elders the adults the older people you having manners see I'm less about that because there's there's kids

who have the good on paper manners right but then they're little shits well I'm like I don't You'll fucking care if you say thank you. You're a fucking asshole. And I don't care that you're five. You're an asshole. Eddie Haskell's. Yeah, 100%. Classic Eddie Haskell.

Oh, man. It's just a whole, by the way, though, it is fun because it's a whole other, like, it's awesome. It's a whole other bowl of gossip between, like, the kids' relationships and the shit that goes on with the fucking crazy parents. You're just like, are you serious? Are you fucking serious? Yeah.

It's crazy. Well, that's what I was going to say is coming from entertainment, you realize, anyone that gets into entertainment and finds their way and has a career, they do it on their own. Supportive parents are a great thing. Totally. But my parents were so supportive. Mine weren't that supportive.

My mom was supportive, but I think she was scared. Yeah. And my dad wasn't around, so at the time. But that's one thing that can help. But if you're going to do it, you're going to do it. I give major credit. one of the funniest things that my dad always comes back on saying to me because he he's a songwriter so there was there was context to the to the to the wanting to do it there was a reference

point of him understanding like here's some of the first steps you know right that's good and we got started really young like my brother played drums and i played guitar so it was like a very natural progression into like i don't remember a time where we just weren't in the basement and you're both successful in music you both have successful businesses in music i mean my brother's business blows my fucking mind. Yeah, it's crazy. He came to us like, and this is years after, you know, playing drums for successful artists and us being in bands together, whatever, whatever.

And he's like, I'm going to create this product that basically is like deadens your snare drum. It'll take the tone of your snare drum and it'll make it sound like an old big fat 70s snare drum. And I'm going to call the company Big Fat snare drum. I'm like, that's cool. I'm like, you're like 10 friends are going to fucking love that. Not in a rude way, just in a like practical, like, yeah, it's like a piece of plastic you're creating. And that's always been his two lanes. has been like he's obsessed with music and he's also like an amateur inventor in his mind.

Yeah, he's an entrepreneur. He's always just thinking of ideas. Yeah, he's innovating. So he does it. And in the first like month of having the product, Travis Barker and Quest Love are using it. And they're like tweeting or Instagramming pictures of it on their kit. So immediately all these drummers are like, what the fuck is this? And yeah, fast forward now 10 years.

There's not a studio, a session, a concert I go to. Or a drummer that doesn't have. Every set from Palmer Cartney's. drummer to whatever. Every drummer in the world. Every drummer in the world. Yeah. And it's so cool because I feel like I finally got to experience, I'm really fortunate that we

got to do a lot of music life together. So when I was having hits in the dance space and stuff, like he was traveling with me, we were experiencing a lot of that together. I know he was really proud. And I feel like this is my experience of that where I get to walk in a room and be like, that's my fucking brother. And like people's reactions or they're like, wait, what? Like he works for the company.

I'm like, no, that's, he fucking created that shit. He invented it. He like made it in his basement in Boston. And then scaled the business. Yeah. And it's so fucking cool. So what I think is interesting is that both of you ended up hugely successful, right? Whether either one of you would say that, I'm going to say it.

That's the cringiest thing to say. I get that. But it's the truth. Well, we get to do shit on our terms, which feels good. Right. But they're also hugely successful. So like that, but what I'm saying is, I'm not be successful, but I don't have any nuts when this air is. Well, all right.

Success can't buy you, you knew nuts. Just so you can't. That's not how a obstectomy works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how this doctor does him. Okay, go ahead. This guy. Yeah.

This is a special guy. He says, he kept saying, leave nothing to chance. Where does he work? Studio City behind the bookstore? Yeah, he rents an office above the dentist. So I think it's legit. He says he shares tools. It's going to be fine.

What all I'm saying is is that our idea of how we could be successful, especially when we're young, is so limited. Oh my God. And then we grow up and we hang around in a space long enough and we try. Yeah. And then we find success in different ways. And then as you get older, you measure success differently. So I would say countless platinum records, Grammys, all the stuff you've achieved. I would say you don't know.

even think about that stuff. I do because I don't have, I don't have a Grammy. I've never been nominated. Yeah, but you have a wild career. I know this because I stood on stage with you six months ago, while hundreds of thousands of people sang your songs back to you. Well, it's crazy. Those moments are great. And I've certainly not saying that I haven't had success. I certainly feel like I'm always succeeding at something. And some of it's more personal. Some of it is like just. going to the gym today was a success for me. Yeah. Because that, for whatever reason, emotionally.

Because of the networking component at the gym. Like, you just made some good connections. That's why I go. Lenny Kravitz was there. Yeah. He's really cool, by the way. He's sick. Yeah.

His sunglasses are getting a little big. A little big. They're huge now. I haven't seen them. The latest. He's a legend, dude. He's the cool. He's the fucking coolest.

Here's a funny story about Lenny Kravitz. You have no boundaries, do you? Check this out. What? So when Spotify was first happening, I was like, okay, I'm going to go ahead and sign up for a Spotify account. And it was like the day after that Lenny Kravitz Dick fell out of his pants. Do you remember that where he was on stage and he does a split? No, seriously.

No, I don't remember. He does like a split on stage while he's playing this concert and his dick falls out. So I thought it was funny to make my Spotify name, Lenny Kravitz Dick. And I didn't realize it was public. So for years when I was selling, sending people like playlists I'd make them. It kept saying playlist by Lenny Kravitz's dick. So like I'd meet with an artist or something. I would want to work together.

I'd be like, how about this for like some vibe inspo? And it'd be like Lenny Kravitz dick and huge letters. Anyway, it's still my Spotify name. If anybody wants to follow. It still is? Yeah, 100%. Do you love EDM music? Yeah, it's the reason I breathe.

It was EDM music. I feel like you hate it. I love EDM. I love DJs even more. No, I don't hate it. I actually learn to. You probably feel the way I feel about punk music and pop punk. Right.

I like it. No, I don't like it. I do like it. I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you like pop punk stuff. I like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like good versions of it. Of course. But I also like kind of feel like it is like going back to a high school reunion sometimes. I totally relate to that. Actually, I don't relate to that because I never went back. I never went to one. So I imagine that's what it feels like. Yeah.

You should, by the way. I'll go with you. The EDM thing is weird because it was a complete accident. Right, you didn't mean to do it. No. I had just signed an Interscope. I was signed there as like sort of a singer-songwriter pop artist. And within like a month of being there, I get a call from Jim.

or Jimmy's assistant and they were like, you should work with these two guys and was Alessso, who hadn't put any music out yet, and Zed, who was like remixing at the time. And they were like, it could be interesting because you write an acoustic guitar to like write songs and let these guys produce them out and like maybe that'll be a weird

combination. And it worked. And I was, at the time, it was like, it was just the years of saying yes to everything because you're fucking broke and living in, you know, Archstone apartments across from Ralph's eating fucking cottage cheese. So I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll fucking work with whoever the fuck you want me to.

Yeah, shit my brains out fucking showing up to DJ sessions being like, sure, I'll fucking write you songs about stars and moon and whatever fuck you want to talk about. And it ended up working, which like I was grateful for. It was right at that, right before EDM really exploded. It wasn't commercial yet or like it was just becoming. It was one of those opportunities on the road that you were like, yeah, sure, why not? Yeah. And then you did it.

It was hugely successful. It started working and then it became like, oh, it's confusing that I have this other music. I remember watching from, we weren't as close as we are now, but I remember watching that happened for you from the outside going like, fuck yeah. Because I knew you were the real deal. I knew you were write good songs. I got to be honest, it's so strange because I think that was the most important experience in my life and it's not for reasons that I think people would assume.

It's not because it was like, because I fucking me. money and it was awesome it was because I was like oh shit this is not happiness whatsoever um right deep in an eating disorder fucking miserable hated the music I was working on hmm there were some a few really good people in the space that made me feel a little less insane because they too could relate to the experience what were the qualities of the people that weren't that you would define as not good people yeah what were the qualities that you like that stood out to you that you were that like hurt you the most small dicks okay yeah i just hated how small yeah their stuff was in so many words actually self-importance yeah yeah the inability to i and they were drinking the coolade

drinking the coolade and part of it i get because i think when you're young it's back to what we were talking about when you're young and you aren't given humble pie out of the gates and it works your first time trying something i think you think holy shit yeah it could be dangerous i'm so fucking special I'm so talented. I'm so good. I deserve all this. And I think because electronic at the time was booming and becoming such a thing,

there were so many of those kids who, like, they just started DJing or just started producing, hadn't had any other experience. Couldn't really write a song either. None of them could write songs. So they'd get paired up with songwriters, and it wasn't their fault, but the genre didn't honor the craft of songwriting.

They were like, we want drops and we want a party. So they weren't, it's not like they grew up listening to Elvis Costello and Bruce Springsteen and they were like, oh, I love the craft of songwriting. It was, it was a sonics thing and it was a party thing. And it was like, it was so much more the sounds that it's making. So the song in a lot of ways to them was secondary and third. So I think, yeah, you put those things together and you end up feeling like, interesting. I wrote a ton of these songs that are giving these guys careers. But in no way do I, not only do I not feel included, I actually feel like,

every time your head pokes up from the street, they're just like, stay the fuck down. Don't tell anyone. Everybody's got to think it was me. Yeah, so it's an insecurity around what you actually did versus what people think you did or anyone knowing how it really works or there's a, it's a, it's a me, it feels like there's a, which was even more silly because it wasn't like these were songs at the time. I'm like, I'm so proud of these and I'm being robbed the credit.

I was like, I don't really fucking care about these, but also it's super lame that like. Yeah, but it's. feels good when someone that worked with you says, oh yeah, he wrote that song. Totally. And I, and I, like, or he doesn't actively try to fuck you. Yeah. Like, you know, like fuck you out of the credit or the. Oh, my God.

Like, so many versions of that where it's like, cool, I'll feature on your song in exchange. You're going to produce a song for my record. And then they'd produce it and be like, cool, now it's going to be my single and I want to put a different feature on it. You're just like, wait, how did all these things? I don't understand. Like, right, you had enough of those experiences. where you felt unconsidered.

Yeah, and I think it quickly turned from the hunger of being like a struggling songwriter, producer to like, oh, I just don't want to live this quality of life. So I'm going to stay in this space for a minute because I'm not stupid and all the opportunities are coming because then it's like every one of these DJs was getting a big record deal. But I'm going to look to the horizon and see where I really want to be and I'm going to start acclimating towards the life that I actually want to live. And then you started doing that, which is where Winnika came. I think so, because I think the truth is like, look, if you grow up and you love electronic

music, then regardless of its commercial appeal, you're going to be fucking stoked to do it for the rest of your life. And for me, I'm like, the second that this isn't like, it's not this exact equation of writing songs in the space that get played on the radio, like, I'm not going to be the guy who's like stoked to go DJ in a club because I love it so much. What I am stoked to do is go play music I love and play it for fucking five people at Whole Foods. if that's where it is because I love the music. So it was exactly that.

But you have some songs, though, like clarity is a fucking great song. I didn't get it at first, to be honest. I think it was people getting it that may be like, melody. It's such a good, like, lyric. That's very kind. But you just didn't have a great experience. Yeah, it was terrible.

Well, it wasn't what you thought it would be. That's the biggest thing. I think you're sold this thing as you're young. Like, when I get to the top of the hill, problem solved. Yeah. And then you get to the top of the hill and you're still there. You're still looking at yourself and you're like, okay, cool. Nothing's really changed.

And in fact, in my position, I felt like I sacrificed a lot of what I cared about to have the success or to have the thing. And then I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? Like, I can't even look around and be like, but I enjoy the company or whatever. Like, I think it's easy when you're young and you're in bands and it works, even if it's not totally your cup of tea. You're like, I'm doing it my friends and it's fun and like it's working and it's exciting to play in front of people.

I think that was such an isolating thing because it's like. Like, yeah, I don't know. And you'd look around and it wasn't people you could, that I could relate to because none of us came from a similar common ground of like, oh yeah, we like the same shit. Like, I have no clue what you're talking about. Still, to this day, people come up to me and try to like get into like deep talk about, like, trans records. I'm like, I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Yeah. I don't know that world. I don't come from that world at all. Yeah, I'm a band guy. Yeah, like fully I'm a singer-songwriter nerd. Like, let's talk about Dawes or some shit. But like I. What's your favorite band you've worked with as a producer and a writer?

Favorite? Oh, man. Or a few. I mean, it sounds so cliche because it's just like the biggest. But getting to work with Springsteen was like goals because I grew up being obsessed with Bruce and that is such a big bomb between me and my dad. So to get to work with him and then like bring my dad to a show. My dad's seen like 100 Bruce concerts and I've seen like a billion too.

but to get to like introduce my dad to Bruce under the umbrella. And he seems like he's a cool dude. I don't know him personally. The best. Right. But to like get to like say, Dad, meet your hero via we got to work on something together. That was like hands down.

Five star experience. That was the best. What about churches? I love working with Lauren. Lauren is a badass and has like such a cool voice and a really cool vision for what it is that she wants to say, maybe more than a lot of people I've worked with. She's very much like, these are the things I want to talk about and that ring true with me.

And these are the things that, like, this territory doesn't resonate with me. So I'm not going to touch it. And I think a lot of times, especially when you meet artists that are in like the co-writing phase of their career, they get to a point where they're so burnt out that they're like, yeah, I don't know. I'll say whatever you think I'm supposed to say. Right. Which is such a dangerous place to get.

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in Shopify point S bar records. I don't know. I think that the EDM side of you is whatever reason I think it's really important. I just think you did something with

ease and figured out a lot of shit in the process. Therapistically speaking, I think that like it was a necessary step for you to be who you are today. By the way, like it quite literally is the reason I met my wife. Like, you know, there's so many things about that experience that led to the life I have. Yeah. So the ability to say, hey, I want to make Winnecker records

and like, I don't give a fuck if they sell. I don't give a fuck if people come to shows. Like, I'm doing it for me because it feels good. That's,

that's the leisure of having done that. So it's not falling on deaf ears, you know? Yeah. I just think that you had to get past the idea of success to get to success. And I think your success today

is your life. It's 100% it's your ability to make records and make good records. But I think it's like very rarely do you meet people in music and entertainment that feel calm and they know who they are, right? I think most of the older guys do. You're on the younger side to have it figured out where you're at. You're not like running scared in every direction, every six months.

You're changing directions because you're right now that like it's a real experience people have where they just feel like terrified and they're chasing. I got to credit all of that to my wife, though, because I remember being 29 and her saying, when do you think you want to have kids? And for me, I'm like, I don't know, late 30s. Like, we'll figure it out sometime. And within like six months, you know, she's pregnant and I'm completely on board.

I think I was the same age when I had my kids, 29. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like having that experience where suddenly you have this other more important thing. to call it more important or to even put it on the same scale as just hilarious. Like it's just this matters and that doesn't.

Yeah. I tell this to guys all the time who are like, I have my first kid and I'm nervous about how it's going to affect my work because that's a very real thing. And I remember feeling that like, fuck, I'm a workaholic who. How am I going to do this?

How am I going to do this? And you're like, oh, I just make better decisions. Way better. I say no to 99% of the garbage and yes to the stuff that I'm like, oh, that's worth being away from my family for or of course like yes because that's the thing that financially is smart whatever like there's obviously you're always juggling different motives but i think so much of that calmness comes from

having like a family that i know if we had to move tomorrow into a one-bedroom apartment with each other we'd be stoked and be joyful and be happy it's not about it doesn't matter yeah i feel the same way you and hillary are my favorite couple we're pretty good you guys are good we're pretty good. She lets me get away with a lot of shit. Yeah, but you show up like a lot. Yeah, I mean, I don't care about anything more or even on the same scale as I do my family. It's a really sweet thing to have a good portion of your life occupied by such selfish thoughts and selfish agendas and then be humbled by playing a very supporting role to your

family in kids' lives and feeling the most powerful in that. I feel the same way. So you should definitely find a therapist in L.A. in person. You should want me to go to your guy because you like him so much. I do.

Yeah. I do. I like my guy. I'm going to make you try my guy once. My guy, I think he lives in Oklahoma or Kentucky. Yeah. I like that.

I like that he doesn't like, he's not in the mix. But I would do both, to be honest. like put better health and the guy on at the same time and see who's better advice. I would do, I would, I would do like a therapy off. Like who's going to fucking solve this shit. You know what I mean. I'll pay one of you. Yeah, no, you know what I mean.

I know. I'm tough with consistency, so it's helpful to have an app to turn on and be like, okay, cool. I'm at my studio and it's this time I'm going to log into this thing and be here. Yeah. Because it comes down to doing shit for myself and they never do anything for myself. and they never do anything for myself. So that's like, it's tough.

Yeah, I'm glad you're on the journey. It's the best journey I ever took. I love therapy. Yeah, I do too. It's really, it's good. I have to be careful because I'll overanalyze sometimes. And that's, but that's okay. Like, like, I think I'll get on the other side of that too.

I think it's just like you grow and you go through like stages of growth. And like, I think I've been in like a therapeutic mindset for like, a decade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always wonder, like, when will I be, when will I, when will I not have to analyze it? When will I just know? And I don't know that that ends. Yeah.

My mom's a therapist. Is she? Yeah. Your whole life? Yeah, whole life. Oh, wow. So I feel like a lot of that. I didn't know that.

It's ingrained in you pretty early when your mom's, like, that's how she navigates through things. She asks you how you feel. Yeah. And honestly, I feel like it wasn't even so much. when we were little kids, I do feel like as a mother, she was just a normal mom who would be insane and have freakouts and whatever. It was like as we got older and had to navigate things with friends or relationships, it was just this advice that was very practical and very guided and like, so I don't know, I don't know that that ever leaves to your question because

I think, I don't know if it's like walking where you just don't think about it. And you're like, I just know how to walk. I think you're always sort of calling on the tools to say, okay, how do I digest this? At least for me, it's like that. Yeah. So you kind of did have therapy your whole life. Yeah. In first grade, I had really bad separation anxiety from my parents.

So they locked me in a closet at school with a bunch of Amelia Bedelia books. And then my parents found out. That's terrible. They were really pissed. Kind of deserved it. I didn't deserve it. I was just, I was in first grade. I was like, however, years old.

And I was just really anxious. so I'd like curse at the teachers. Well, you probably have ADD. I've only been diagnosed with like generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder. Okay. How does anxiety play out for you? First grade, that's when I got my first therapist, Dr. Rabinowitz, and he was great. Anxity plays out for me better now because I'm on Prozac, 4 milligrams.

Went up during COVID. That was fucking awesome. What's Prozac like? It's great. I feel like. I feel like what that's like. Everybody has different experiences. with different SSRIs and different medications.

For me, it's, I feel like I'm an advertisement for Prozac and BetterHelp. I'm like, this is key to happiness. Actually, though, people need to hear it because there's a bunch of people out there that are listening going, like, I have anxiety or panic attacks, and they have done nothing for themselves to try and figure out how to, how to. Anxiety's healthy, right? Like, anxiety, a level of it, a manageable level of it, is going to give you feelings. Like, I don't know that there's a world void of anxiety.

It gives me an edge. It's an edge. Um, panic attacks became insufferable for me. Yeah. Um, and after years of therapy and trying everything under the sun, nothing was working. I used to have panic attacks. Yeah, they're, they're terrible. Yeah.

Like, I mean, teeth burning, can't keep my head up, like, can't breathe. Um, throat gets really tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had that. Actual hell to the point where like I, I couldn't go out because if I'd go out, something would trigger it. It was really bad. So Prozac for me has stopped.

that but I feel totally normal in every other way like still I can cry for the Prozac like if it's really emotional right um on a plane watching a movie yeah it would take more but I cry on planes when I watch movies really yeah I could do that without prozac I hear there's something to that like there's something about being is there something to flying and crying being in the air and being more emotional or something yeah it's called um you're a fucking wuss, they call it. Yeah. Yeah, that's what they call it, pretty sure. Anyway, Prozac, any SSRI, I think like you find the one that works for you. Yeah. That one happens to work for me. Like, my lows aren't as low. My highs are as high. I just don't have fucking crazy panic attacks and I can function as a human

adult. Joel, there actually is. It says the lower than usual air pressure causes mild hypoxe in the brain. And it's usually manifested by people crying when watching sad movies or just, generally feeling on edge. I knew it. Joe Rogan said that. Yep. Joe Rogan said that. Yeah, that's his quote.

But now when we talk about potential tours and dates and records and stuff, like you're part of the conversation. Like, we're going to make the next record together. Well, yeah, we've kind of started. We started a little, ish. Do good Charlotte music. Hard announcement. Sometime.

Soon. 20, 22. I think personally will have music out by the fall. Yeah, why not? I think we're going to make it and drop it. Why not? No, it's been, it's, I love having you and good Charlotte. It's fun to just, um, also just, it's like a family event.

I don't know. Like rehearsals didn't feel like band rehearsals. Yeah. We're just kind of doing, we're just hanging out. Vegas was fun. Vegas was super fun. It felt, I mean, it's much like we were talking about, you sort of build your own ecosystem that you can tolerate and that you enjoy so everything else is tolerable.

Yeah. I felt like that's exactly what you did. Like you curated your friends and family that you love having around you when you do those things. So it could be a good experience because shit changes. Like, yeah, when you're in your young 20s and playing those things, that's one thing. When you're not and when you have a family and it's taking you away from your family to do those things, it has to be something different or else it just doesn't work. Yeah, like you think, okay, we're going to go play these shows. Nicole's going to come.

Hillary will come. Simone will come Jamie will come Okay she's good She's got her crew Yeah yeah yeah Sparrow's gonna come Okay he'll bring a friend

He's good Yep We're all hanging out All the wives are hanging out And it becomes this like fun holiday It's just yeah It's an excuse to hang out And like

And the show is almost the least It's almost the least important thing But when you do it It's really fun And you end up doing a better job of it I think when you're happy The first night I think was also like It's been a minute

And some of the good nerves were there. And then by the second night it was just like... Like surfing. In the pocket surfing. Yeah, I can't surf. I can't either, but that's what surfing must feel like. Like surfing a big wave must feel like 100,000 people. It was fucking cool.

And it was fun to play those songs. It's like I grew up obviously knowing those tunes. And you sing, which is amazing. I've never had, besides Benj, I've never had another vocal on stage with me. And it was a really fun having another vocal. You guys, you did The Innocent. Yes. There was multiple vocalists.

Yes, but we never got to, I don't know that we ever played it. We should get, let's get a performance going of it. We'll pick a charity. That's a really obscure song for you to pull out. Only like hardcore good Charlotte fans would know what you're talking about. I know the innocent, man. We don't know why. I fucking know that shit.

Yeah. Sing it all day. It was a good song. Yeah. I'm, yeah, I don't know. I just, I feel like I'm finally just making stuff that I don't have to apologize for, which feels good. I don't want to have to say, well, it was because of this,

or I did this because I thought it was smart because of this. Like, I don't care about what's smart or why. I just want to do stuff that, like, I love it. Tickles me in the same way that, like, fucking being dumb in the internet tickles me. Like, I just want to, I want to get off on it. You want to be amused. My five friends who will get the references and get where it's coming from. I'll dig it.

I forget where I heard it, but somebody, said something along the lines of like just make gifts for your five closest friends yeah and if you're doing that and that is the best part when i text you or when i text like my buddy taylor and i'm like new song fucking check this out like what do you think and you get the reaction from them where they're like that's fucking sick that's the best feeling everything from that is sort of like not downhill but it's just it's not as important sort of using that as like yeah as the guiding light tour starts june 25th in seattle cool which i bet you'd Didn't know.

It's us and Nirvana. Album coming out May 31st. Very cool. And the tour is on sale tomorrow, April 4th. Cool. So anyone listening? Do you know the name of our tour? Chalala.

Uh-uh. The name of the tour was something funny. It was... The tourgasm. The tourgasm? Yeah. As a play on Smokey Robinson's album, Eargazim. Gasms.

His album was just Gasms. But he has a song called Eargazm. He talks about eargasms in the song Gasm. He goes, Oh, I got it wrong. So he has an album called gasms and a song called gasms, and it's about all the different kinds. It's not just filthy orgasms that you can have. You can have ear gasms, eye gasms he talks about, all these different.

Anyway, I got really into it. I did a guest verse on it. It's sick. You got to hear it. Has he heard it? He hasn't, but his team has. Because I think at that level of things, you still have a team in place that yields such things. Anyway, I got very...

So you named your tour or tourgasm? Well, we did like a poll. We asked, we gave a bunch of options in Torgasm, one. So now it's the Torgasm. And it's like, we hope you're coming. Get it? And like... You're nuts, me. And it's also like...

Matt. There's no Yorgasm without Argasm, which is, they're all in letters and Torgas. It's good. It's good. It's good. Great. Congratulations. Shawgasm. Thanks for coming. Renaming it. Thanks for coming. You get it. Yeah.