Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - MAY-A

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Joel Madden is joined by Australian singer-songwriter MAY-A on this week's episode of Artist Friendly. Last year, the alt-pop rising star featured on Flume’s dance burner “Say Nothing,” which won triple j’s Hottest 100 countdown. Since then, she’s opened for 5SOS and Nessa Barrett on tour and shared her second EP, Analysis Paralysis. The release is an exciting turn for the artist, who revels in a mixture of new sounds, from the fuzzy squall of the Smashing Pumpkins to In Rainbows-era Radiohead. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with Australian alt-pop sensation, Maya. Her new EP analysis paralysis is out now. We'll be talking about that and a bunch of other things. Let's go. Maya? Yeah. I always say Maya. I think a lot of people do. Is that an American thing? Is it an American thing? No, people in Australia say Maya as well. Were you called Maya all the way? That's very, I feel like it's very Aussie to like change the way you say a word that reads. I don't know what my parents did it to me. It's super annoying. It's great actually.

I prefer Maya. Really? So welcome. Thank you. How's it going to having me? It's going well. Happy to be here. Do you live in L.A.?

Not really. It's kind of in and out. Okay. Do you live in Australia still? Kind of. Cool. Yeah. You live everywhere because you're touring.

Yeah, that's the vibe, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be living out here, though. You're going to move out here? Yeah. It's a great place to make music. If you're making music all the time and making stuff all the time, L.A. is a great place to like, and then to get around the world, it's a little

harder from Australia as a touring artist. Yeah, yeah. So Australia is great for a lot of things creatively. But when you're touring, like it looks like you're just starting to kind of like just, just tour all the time. Yeah, it's pretty great. Whenever you get a tour, just go, pick up your bags and go. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It is harder from Australia, especially like all my band is in Australia. Oh wow. So like flying four people out from Australia to the other side of the world. It's so expensive. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot.

I don't think people realize how expensive touring is. Especially support stuff. People think that the main act pays for everything, which is ridiculous. And you don't get paid that much. No. Support. That's the whole point. of like that's why a lot of artists need labels because it's tour support it isn't even making

records it doesn't cost that much these days yeah i mean records can cost a lot it depends but touring is probably the most expensive aspect until you get a business that's turning over enough money to break even which is i don't think people realize no you're getting 500 bucks a show and one flight is like a grand to get out terrible that's tough yeah but it's i don't know i'm I'm glad that, you know, I have the tour support. There's so many great artists that just, like, can't do it. Because you can make a record on a budget. You can't tour on a budget, really.

You can be resourceful with making music for sure. You can, these days, I think music is essentially zero to no cost if you're really resourceful and creative. You have your friends. You have people. Like artists, we find our way around and we meet other artists and we all end up collaborating and then we figure it out. And if there's money, we split it.

If there's not, we're all like, whatever, like get it out. Yeah. That's kind of, I feel like how real artists work. As you get bigger, it gets harder because people, things get more complicated because there's more and more people involved. But if you're creative, you can start your career as an artist by just creating. Yeah. But then trying to go out in the world and tour, that's.

that's the most expensive part. 100%. It's tough. I don't know how you guys do it. It's definitely hard. How was it for you when you were touring? It was the same. Yeah.

This is expensive. When we started was 1996, we were in a minivan. Yeah, classic. Like a little Astro, Chevy Astro. But how rock is that though? And the door was broken. So we had to go in through the back. Oh my God.

Or the front two doors. Did you have to pull your gear in? So the sliding door was broken. You know how they used to have the sliding doors? The sliding door was broken. We had the two front doors and the back door. So we would load all the gear in because we had the bench sheet in the back out and we had the plate stuff for the gear. This is when we first started touring.

And then we would all go in through the front doors and there was one bench seat in the middle and two seats in the front. And we would all just cram in. funny. And then we made that van because that was like a van we got for nothing. Oh, you bought it? Yeah. I mean, before we were signed, you know, we were just selling our little CDs out like at our shows. And then, um, we got signed in 99. And out of that, we bought like a 13 passenger nice fan. It's smart to buy a van. Yeah. And then we had a trailer. We bought it. And we put half a million miles on that. Oh my God. Toring like we just drove around the U.S.

And we'd play any show. It was probably 99. We were touring in vans with some 41 before anyone knew who either one of us really were. And we were playing like bars and little clubs, probably like 200 cap, 300 cap. Some shows would be like sold out or almost sold out. Some shows there'd be like 150 people there depending on the city. And we were in vans. just touring around like that was it we were just in vans and then I think we moved to a bus

by the end of the first record which was 2001 yeah so you know it was like five years in vans it's kind of fun though no iPhones oh think about that oh true no maps you do you have like a map like a physical map out yeah like a you're taking turns driving a road atlas yeah yeah I used to drive. Me and our other friend who was like our tour manager sounds. You know how you do. You're just like, you can do sound and tour manage. You can do sound and lights at the same time, surely.

Yeah, so I used to drive, but I was one of the main drivers. And yeah, you just have a road atlas. Would you just drive for like 12 hours and then be like, right? Time to get on stage and sing. Yeah, sometimes. It depends. Like if you had a flat tire or you had anything go wrong. The other thing is when we were touring with road atlaces, you'd miss a turn and you'd be off course by like an hour or two depending on like what part of the country you're in.

It probably wouldn't even know for a bit. For a long time. And you'd be like, wait, where did I miss this? It's like dark in the Midwest driving overnight, you know. So it was a whole different experience touring back then. But it was still expensive. Yeah. Those shows on those little tours and we did a bunch of those little tours.

and we did a bunch of those little tours, you weren't making much each show. Hotels weren't, you mean, you were literally just doing like red roof ins and like these little motels for like $20 rooms and each sharing, you know, you'd get four rooms and you were budgeting every dollar, especially because we started from zero

and you're just trying to stay at zero and not go into debt trying to. to like tour. Yeah. And like warp tour, all that. We did all that. But it was it was, you were always just trying to break even on tour. And then we, we got, this band MXPX took us out on tour. And that was like our first, I think our first really big extensive US tour where it was like sold out shows to 3,000 people. And I feel like that's where like our touring live kind of culture tipped. And then we started headlining our own shows after that. Yeah. Doing 1,500 and 2,000. people and just you have to tour and grow the live audience you don't just get a live audience you

also need the practice you need to do small shows because of what you're just chucked on a massive show and you're like well got to learn how to play this part in how to fill this stage yeah and what if something goes wrong if you haven't done a thousand shows and something cuts out during your live show on a big stage it's going to be obvious you don't have the muscle memory to just like work through it yeah 100 it's interesting we were talking about that we philosophize a lot about what we think artists need to succeed at every level. And I do think that you have to go through every level to succeed. When an artist gets thrown on the big stage and they haven't done a thousand shows,

it can fall apart and they can have a really bad moment that stays in everybody's memory as their first impression. Because, you know, it's first impressions always, right? But you want your first impression in front of 25 people. There's room there. And they're also like, oh, it's endearing. It's your first show. It's nice.

Whereas like you artists are blow up, like TikTok artists blowing up and then getting chucked on a stage. People like, they're not a real artist because they can't perform. But it's like, you have to acknowledge that they've never performed before. But that first impression sticks sometimes. It does. And then that's the reputation. I mean, I'm, you know, guilty of doing it too.

How would you define your introduction to the world? Was it through social media? Was it, has it been just, Australia has a much cooler, I think, taste. I think it feels to me more organic. Even in the pop world, it's just still feels more organic than like what I think is available and possible in the U.S. You can construct a pop artist and put them out there and make it go viral. You can't do that in Oz.

You can't do that. You can't do that. Yeah. tell like straight away. Much harder on their artists in Australia. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's hard in Australia to make it.

It is. It's hard because you've got to be cool, but you can't look like you're trying to be cool and you can't get too big, but you can't stay small. And you can't move to America, but you can't stay. It's this really weird anomaly. You're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. Exactly.

Exactly. You have all these big artists that like have to leave to actually get success, but then get shunned when they come back because they're like, will you? And you have to stick through it. Yeah. And then somewhere on the other side of that, everyone's just like, oh, yeah, you've been big forever. And you're like, no, you guys didn't talk to me for 10 years.

No, literally. That's like Kylie Minogue, Troy Savant. Like all these people had to leave. But then you've got like Spacey Jane's, like one of the biggest bands in Australia right now. But you say that name out of Oz and nobody like, you know, they're just starting. I don't know Spacey Jane. They're really cool. They're really cool.

Very like Ozzy. Yeah, it's quite. But I know Australia. So I, I, I, I understand it. I understand it. I understand it. I love it for that. And I'm, I, I get just as frustrated as any Australian artist with some of the behaviors,

but I also love it. So it's endearing at the same time. And I know I've been going to, I mean, I've been going to Australia for 23 years. And it's like home away from home in a lot of ways. But I think because I'm not Australian, I get away with. a lot more there. That's true. Yeah, they're less harsh.

They are. They are. And then in some ways, yeah, I love it to death. It's like my favorite place in the world. I remember I thought you were Australian. Yeah. Because it's rare that people become like big in Australian culture when they're not Aussie. Like in an Aussie way.

Yeah, in an Aussie way. That's exactly it. Like in the living room. Yeah, exactly. And I feel Australian a little, all my best friend. are all Australian. It's crazy how many Australians are in my life. It's ridiculous. And Australians find each other all over the world. Oh yeah. You can hear you can like, anywhere. It's like a whale. Yeah. Like I'm, it's funny because if I'm traveling anywhere in the world, I'm always running

into Australians. And and it's great. There's like an Aussie way with the artists that I find, because I know so many Australian artists that are head and shoulders above, they just outclass other musicians, other songwriters, I mean, guitar players, drummers. In order to become a professional in Australia in the arts, you have to just be so good and not promote it. Yeah. And so it's different in America.

We're self-promoting if we're bad. Like, I've got to be playing drums for two years and be promoting myself as like the best drummer in the world. Yeah, fully. Right. In Australia, drum prodigy he's been playing since he was two years old. He's all right. Yeah, he's okay. Yeah.

He's pretty good. Yeah, he's a good guy. Yeah. But so I know so many artists that in Australia and from Australia that like I feel like they don't get the act. at home that they should because it's just not the way. Well, the second that you're the best, you're overrated. Yeah. And if you're coming up, you're not that good.

So nobody wins. It's weird. And yet it's kind of what makes me love it. Because there's just this way that like it just is how it is. And it builds character. There's a character to it that I like. Chase Atlantic, you know Chase Atlantic. Yeah.

They're so Australian. Yeah. They live here because they have to because of tour because they're always on the road. road, but they live in Australia too. It's kind of like you. Like, I don't think they're ever not going to live in Australia, but they have to live here because there's no way they could tour and afford, you know. You can't. Yeah. At this stage, they have a big touring operation and it's a lot of people and like, I don't know how they would do it if they were in Australia. Yeah. There's also so many times that you can tour five states. Yeah. Like, you know, I've only been

touring for like three or four years, but like even, even that's good. And you're like, yeah, I've done the rounds quite a bit. Yeah. Played them off. Yeah. When did you start? I started writing when I was like 13. Right.

Like in a studio that I found. And then I met my manager there like randomly. And then he was my singing teacher for like three years. And like I was slowly writing. And then he was sort of like, I want to manage you. I've been wanting to manage an artist for ages. And then I don't know. It happened really slowly.

And I don't think I realized that anything was happening just because I was like, yeah, I'm just doing my thing. And I think he did a good job at protecting me back then of just like, he didn't put any expectation. He wasn't like, you're going to do this, you're going to meet this label rep. He was just like, just right for a bit. And then when it's right, it's right. And I didn't really send anything until I was like 18, which I'm pretty grateful for that I didn't do it too young. But yeah, it was just like the radio station, Triple J. like Australia's radio station, the radio for the people, essentially.

Yeah. And they always support up-and-coming artists. Yeah, they always play cool shit, too. Yeah. Yeah. They're, like, really champion people that have, like, a thousand streams, which I feel like America doesn't have a big force like that that supports really small artists.

I think if there was one, it wouldn't be in radio. I mean, alternative press is a good example. of a brand that like will just promote artists that they like. Yeah. The editor is super cool. She's like just picks up things. It's like music fans. They're just like, this is cool.

It doesn't matter how many streams it has. There's not a lot of that outside of like web-based and media kind of like independent media type things. But radio is such a, even like I don't feel like terrestrial radio matters anymore. It doesn't have as much of a push. It matters in like a talking point. Yeah. This is doing really well at radio.

But like what does that mean? Because kids are not listening to the radio. I don't think my kids know how to turn to radio on. So I'm Anna Mena. And like my music, my hair can't be able to be able to continue my rhythm. For so Potion Nine, of Sebastian Professional,

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again again like in Australia I think Triple J is kind of

the longest standing cool radio brand that still supports

artists and finds things and breaks things and like that's a very

doesn't really exist maybe anywhere in the world. I think probably a few others if we really tried to like find them. But Triple J as a, it's kind of like this big brand that still champions cool shit. Yeah. And it gets like people, you get an audience that you not, you wouldn't necessarily have. Yeah. Like I know what the stereotypical like watered down like mayor listener looks like. But then occasionally I'll have like a big group of tradies in the crowd, which like,

carpenters and yeah um and i'll be like why there are all these guys in high viz in the pit like that's sick but where they come from and i'm like oh it's like the work sites that are playing the radio and then they'll show up at the festivals and like that's a demographic that probably would not have found my music naturally outside of like that fourth what was the first like break for you into the you know into like professional this is this oh this is starting to have happened for me. I'm an artist now. I can just focus on this. You said you were 18. Was it the radio? That was again, like a really slow build. And like I did really small shows. Same thing. I did like 100 cap rooms, 200 cap rooms, slowly building slowly with my band and then like releasing more

music and working on it. I got like signed. I still wasn't like when I got signed I wasn't like, I made it. I was actually like I think I cried that day. because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. Like, you know, I was like, this is actually more heavy than it is like fun in a way. Yeah. And then, yeah. But it was probably the flume song, I think, where I was like, oh, this shit is getting real now. Super cool.

Yeah. It was pretty crazy. Like, I just didn't think it was going to happen. And then just like, completely. Why didn't you think it was going to happen? Because, like, I'd met him a few times, but, like, they definitely. said like, oh, we're like testing out vocalists and we're trying different people. And, you know, it's just immediately off the path.

It's like, okay, it's not. Yeah, that kind of is how it is in the process. Like some stuff makes it and some stuff never makes it out. Yeah. You can put a vocal on something and it never sees the light of day because. Exactly. It's a bunch of people that have to kind of. Approve.

Agree and believe that this is the song or whatever. I was like, oh, you know, in two years I can play my version when this song's big. and be like, I have a demo version of me on the track, like, you know? And then just, like, chucked in the deep end. Like, they were like, cool, sang the song, do a few performances. And then they were like, you're doing Coachella. And I was like, oh, my God, the biggest room I've played is like a thousand people. I don't know if I can do this.

And that's when it was more like, the like professionalism became really real of like, okay, this is a fucking job now and you need to like pull it together and perform. Yeah, you got to show. up and perform. Yeah. And some people, they can't. The pressure is insane. Yeah.

Especially for like two shows over this band of like two weeks. That's like six months of prep for something that big. And I'm on for two minutes. I couldn't imagine what a big band or artists or, you know, like it was all of the things, the fucking movement coaches and the like. That's funny. Et cetera. Like, you know, especially because like I tend to play more band style music and like guitar.

I don't move like an EDM vocalist. Right. So it was very much like I do need a bit of training and this is like untreaded territory a little bit. Yeah. What do I do? Yeah. What do I do up here when I'm just singing with this other group? Yeah.

It's very smart to go, okay, I haven't done this before. I want to prepare. I need to figure it out. And sometimes you'll bring in a coach of some kind. And you realize it's like you just needed to do that once to realize you didn't need it. That's more often than not, I think. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

I mean, music is interesting because you can be kind of boxed in as a specific type of artist. And then suddenly you have this realization where you're like, wait, I can do whatever I want. I can be, do the band thing and then do a. I think Charlie X, X, X does it really well. Yeah. In a way that she could, she could have 20 people on stage or it could just be her. She can change that show so much to be like full band or just a DJ or there's dances or, you know, it's cool when you can be that like a chameleon in a way. But, you know, with your stuff, what made you decide to, because you had good Charlotte?

Yeah. And then you did the duo thing. The Madden Brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was just like a, that was fun. That was just like me and Benj wanting to make a record. We just made it.

It was weird. And then we, it's funny. too because like that record doesn't exist anywhere right now. What? So we took it off of all the streaming platforms and stuff after the year. We put it out for a year. We toured and then when we were done, we just took it off. Really?

I don't know why. I remember that. It was great. We had done that song like plagued the radio and it was everywhere. It was ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. I love that record.

But we're going to put it back out. I don't know when, but we're definitely going to put it. it back out. I don't know how or when we always talk about it because it's going to be 10 years next year. No way. Yeah. That does not feel like that long ago. It's crazy, right? That's crazy. Yeah. And we, after about a year, after we did that, we did it for like a year. We toured everywhere. And then when we were done, no pun intended, we were like, okay, what should we do? And we were like, why don't we just take it? I don't know. It's weird. Why did you want to take it down? I don't know. Were you like this is

A momentary thing It was just something that we did That we wanted to do And I don't know if we felt like I feel like I'm only ever going to be in one band Yeah I do get that Good Charlotte is the only band I'll ever be In it's what you want people to remember

And if I'm not in Good Charlotte I'm not going to be I'm not going to be making music And it's just how I feel Yeah That's my that's like that band raised me Yeah I was 15, 16

when we started. From a broken home, my parents were struggling to keep up with their own shit. We didn't have the kind of parental guidance or involvement or support that I think we needed. And I think we found it there

with each other. And I think that means so much more to me than music. It means so much more to me than the records. Like that band means more. Those guys, we've been through so much together, but we raised each other. So like all my self-confidence, all my personal, I think, values were established with those guys.

Was it like you want making music just to make music? Yeah, no. To be with each other. It was deeper. Yeah. It was a need, a deep need. And so I think I can be like a husband and a father, not because it's in me. It's like I'm this good guy.

I think I established that with my band. I think that the success of my life is because of those guys. So it's so much deeper than like the records. Yeah. Even though I know people like the records and I love it when I meet people every day. I meet someone who's like talks to me about a good Charlotte record or a song or something. And it's great. It's beautiful.

But that to me, that band, the symbol of that band is so much deeper. It's like burned into my like soul. as like it saved me from what I always shudder to think like what I shudder to think like who would I have been if I didn't meet those guys and didn't start this little band that no one cared about for so many years and no one watched for so many years and it was just like the the four of us in the beginning Billy and Paul really my were my best friends and then Dino who's who's been with us now for like 18 or 19 18 years or something the five of us. us. But I really feel like the fabric of like who I am and like my values and my the things that have I

think sustained me my whole life are that my values, my work ethic, all that was those guys. So when I think of me and music and what's living in the world, I always kind of just wanted to be good Charlotte. Yeah. Because to me it's deeper than like a song, a hit song or how many streams something has or how many records we've sold. None of that matters as much as like at this age, I look at it and just go the legacy of that brand, of that band of that like that symbol. For whatever reason, I'm super protective of it. I think because it just feels so deep to me. You know? Yeah. That makes sense? Yeah. Definitely. It's weird. No, it's good. I think that's what good music comes from, no. It's not necessarily like what's this song going to be about. It's just like,

let's jam in the garage for hours to avoid being anywhere else. And do we believe in like this thing? And the songs, to me, they have to mean something to us. Like we all have to be like all the way in on what this, what it feels like this record means or this song means. And so, yeah, so that record, we did it in a moment of like artistic. We wanted to create something. But when we were done doing it, I think we were like, you know what?

That was great, but this is what we, when people look for your music, this is what I wanted to find. This is these, these records, these good Charlotte records. Weird. I don't know. It's understandable. Decision we made. Yeah.

So, and I don't know. And I don't know if that could have been a good Charlotte record or not. It probably could have been. I don't know. But the band wasn't involved in it, so it didn't feel like it was a good Charlotte record. Yeah. But they were really, really, they were really supportive. It was, it was cool.

How old are you now? I'm 22. 22. Yeah. That's, you've done a lot. You've done a lot by 22. Thanks. I mean, 22 is young.

I think when we're 18, we think 22 is older than it is. I know. Yeah. And when we're 22. And I was like, huh, I feel 15 still. Yeah. And then when you're 22, you think. think 30's older than it is.

See, I think I've had the clarity of being like, nah, 30 is still super young. I have a lot of friends that are 30 and I'm like, you feel younger than me. Well, you've done a lot by 22. A lot of people at 22 are still trying to break in that first, like, how do I get in? How do I like, how do I have that first moment, the flu moment? Yeah. The triple J moment. Yeah.

I think I've just been. The five sauce moment. How do I get that moment? You've had a bunch of moments. And here you are at 22 with a lot of experience that I think a lot of other 22-year-olds that are trying to break into doing this for a living are still trying to figure out how does that happen. Yeah.

That's great. It's hard being a solo artist. So I find out hard being a solo artist just because I think there's part of me that's always been like, I think I was meant to be in a band kind of feeling. And, you know, you say that's people and they're always like, but you'd have to share everything. and it's so much harder. And I get that, but like, I don't know, I never feel as good as I do when I'm, like, with my band. Like, that is what it's about, you know.

That's what I feel is I'm like, this is what feels right for me. Yeah. So, you know, it's more, I'm now at the point where I'm sort of experimenting with just, like, I've only ever been in, like, sessions with myself and one producer when I'm writing, like, since I was, like, 13 years old. and I'm more like, I really feel the urge to, like, write with my band, but then it's also like, I don't actually know how to do that. Yeah, you have to try.

Yeah. That feels scary to me because I'm like, what if this doesn't feel as good as I keep thinking that it will? Well, I always say you can always find that out and then decide. You can always go back. Yeah. But going forward is the most important part. Yeah.

I think in life period, whether it's in your music, going forward and creating. and whether you use it or not, you got to try things to discover things and see if this is something that will work for me. And you might discover, like, you might have a breakthrough. Yeah. That's how we do. Like, it's experimentation, putting things

and seeing what the reaction is, right? Because there is going to be something. It's going to be different than, or you might find it doesn't work. I mean, you just have to try. Yeah. You can always go back. Yeah, that's true.

Nothing to be afraid of. Yeah. But that's what we do. I think artists are, we're very heady, which is not a bad thing. But like, we'll overthink it. Just getting your own way constantly. Yeah, analysis paralysis.

Yeah. Yeah. Very much. But we, so you have to be careful of that. I'm guilty of that. I can overanalyze and overanalyze. And then I had to learn at some point how to like, there was definitely a,

part of my career where I feel like I got stuck because I was overthinking everything. You had to go through that to get to the other side of it. Yeah, that's true. I think, yeah, I've definitely had like a year of like trying to write and then just you can't get through a song if you're trying to think too much about writing it because then it won't come out and you'll rewrite the lyrics eight times and then you're like, this is not something I would naturally make now. Yeah, overthinking, over critiquing and not like, I do.

do think there's like a stream of consciousness with writing that you have to like hold on to because I think all your early stuff and likely anything that got you here was likely something that you didn't think too hard about while you were making it because there was no pressure for it to be anything. So you didn't have to think. I mean, you're just going. I hope people like this. But a bunch of songs you probably wrote and loved at the time that you've probably forgotten about. I don't know, who's to say that one of those won't reemerge or something. You can never judge the result in real time. You kind of got to let things live for years before you can kind of go, what did that mean?

And I think that you'll always be happier looking back on music that you made honestly versus something you tried to construct to get a result. Those are the songs that I probably feel the least attached to because we have, some of them, you know? Yeah, because then you recognize later on, you can point out yourself being like, I was just trying to do something. Yeah, yeah, you really have to fight that, especially if you're in like co-writing sessions to like test it out, you really have to fight the urge of like, I just need to do something

natural and not, you know, some and stuff that I've recorded over the years is almost hilarious. Yeah, it's like high school picket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100. For you, I can imagine people would be like, I remember exactly where I was when this song came out and how it affected me and what, you know, what I was going through and how it helped me. That really helped you remember why you were doing it in the first place. Yeah, and you kind of remember like the power of music is really, we're just all participating in people's memories. and if we were lucky enough that our song was playing at the time that person had that experience, our song becomes the soundtrack to some really great memory.

Because music is, if you look at music as one of the most important resources on the planet, and if you think about things we can't quantify, we can't even think about the magnitude of like the importance of a song. Yeah. And then leaving that and going into a room and right. writing a song that's going to do that. Like, you're at the beginning of, in my opinion, of a long career where you're going to have to do that a bunch of times.

And if you can't take that in the room with you every time, you have to just go in the room and make something you like. Yeah, let it naturally form. Yeah. Rather than being like, it's heavy when you start being like, I have to write a song that's going to be in. You know, but that's why like pitch songs are so crazy to me that you could like walk into room and be like, right, we're going to write the, uh, the bar mitzvah song of the century where it's

going to be played at every single, you know, like, like fireball by pit bull, you know? Yeah, but like if you're going to cultivate this song for a moment and sometimes it works. But, but that's the thing is if you, to me though, if it's genuine and you're like, I have this idea. I want to write this kind of song for this. I can just see it. And it's a, it's a wedding song. Everybody's going to. And that's really your dream. and you do it and it works, we never know if something's going to translate and stick. But that's being an artist,

you have to try and have vision with what you're doing and everyone's vision's different. And then sometimes in pop, I mean, there's guys like Max Martin and songwriters who have consistently been able to, like, execute their vision with groups of people for artists. That's why they are them, though. That's why there's not a,

there's not thousands of them. Yeah. There's only dozens. The biggest thing is that you've just got to, you've got to like this song. You've got to like that you're the one singing it. You're the one representing it and you're the one that has to play it every single night. Yeah.

If you don't love the song, there's no point in my opinion. You could write like the best song, the number one hit song for the next five years. But if you hate it, that's worse than just not putting it out or giving it to someone else. Yeah, you'll be happier with a song failing that you loved and you really meant it than being talked into recording a song by someone and you go for it and it fails and you're I think that's

way more heartbreaking and disappointing and you'll end up questioning like who am I yeah I 100% agree being talked into something that you really don't want to do versus doing something you believe in it and it not maybe succeeding on the level that the world would deem a success. But it could feel like a success to you and likely will if it's something that you really believe in and you're just like, I have to put this song out. I don't know if it'll do well or I don't care if it'll do well. I think for an artist anyways, because there's a difference between an artist as a songwriter, record maker and a performer who could also be an artist because that's an art form,

but maybe they're not a songwriter and they don't care as much. They're like, I just want to sing songs that I think are catchy and I like and perform. Yeah, they're equally as respected but just very different things. Performance art kind of thing. Yeah. And really great performers are great, they're great artists. I mean, you look at like legacy performing artists. I mean, you could say Beyonce is a.

performing artist. She definitely writes, but she's also cutting songs that other people wrote. Yeah. And I think, but when you go and see her live, you're like, oh, wow, that is a fucking performer. Yeah. They're great. Yeah. And that's a whole other art form. Yeah. Yeah. It's completely different. Yeah. Two different worlds. You sort of have to call. What do you think you're more of writer artists or performing artists or both?

I don't know. I always thought like writing would be my work. one true love and nothing could beat that. And then when I started performing, I was like, damn, this is, this is pretty good. I could do this for a while and then not go back to writing for a bit. It's good. You get the best of both worlds. Like, you write to the point where you need a break, so you tour to the point where you need a break, and then you write to the point where you need a break, and it just continues like

that forever. That sounds right. Yeah. That sounds exactly right. Yeah. That's cool. I never thought of it that way. No, it's great.

I love it. I love both. of them. It just depends on where I'm at and if I feel like I really have something that I want to say or, you know, I feel the energy of like, yeah, I got it, I got it right today because sometimes it is hard when you're when you're in the writing section and you're like, I don't got a lot right now to say, you know, and I don't want to force it because, you know, all I'm going to do is prolong than not having anything to say because I just keep making songs that I feel don't really mean anything.

That's pretty mature. Yeah, it's hard. That's mature, though. I mean, a lot of younger artists just are so amped to try and make it that they just will force anything. Because they just want to force a circle into a square and make it in their time versus in, you know, the life's time or the universe's time or whatever that time is.

Also, there is a thing, I think, to like, we think it's time, but it's not. We're trying to force something that's supposed to grow. It's like forcing an apple tree to have apples before it's ready to have apples. Someone said something really interesting to me the other day where they were like, if it's meant for you, it's not going to pass you. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, that completely, I was like, I got time. I can, it'll happen.

the songs that I want or I think that I want, I'll either realize that I don't or they'll come. Yeah. What was your family life like? Pretty chill. Your mom and dad, are they together? Yeah. Cool.

Yeah, that's together. That's nice. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. That's rare. Actually, yeah, kind of is. Kind of is.

Do you have brothers and sisters? Yeah, I have a younger sister, like six years different. So not a lot of hanging out until kind of reasonably. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like I was a pretty quiet kid. I was pretty separate from my parents very much just like wouldn't come home. Wouldn't sort of talk to them much.

Would kind of disappear for a bit. Why? I don't know. Because I look back and I'm very much like, I think that I had a thing in my brain that I had a really bad relationship with my mom. But then as I grew up, I was like, I think. it's me that's creating the drift

because yeah likely it was probably like just normal adolescent I got to I'm breaking away from my family in the sense that like I'm the same as them

because I think there's a I mean I'm seeing it with my kids they're teenagers and I notice it I'm just like not over I'm not trying to control it Yeah, down by back, it makes it worse. And I never got to have the experience of like being close to my parents. So I didn't have any other model for like when you turn 13, 14, you start to break away and you start to establish your own like opinions of the world, your own identity in the world.

And I think that's natural. I think, right? Yeah. And then if you're close though, I think there's a, I mean, I know I have the urge to be like, like no, no, no, like, stay close. Like, but I think there's like this like, no, okay, like make your own decisions and we'll be here to support whatever the decision is. It's just weird though, I think, but I do think that you're not so old now that you

wouldn't remember those ages really well. Like you're still close closer to those ages. Yeah, I just remember being a really angry kid. Like I was just. Yeah, I think that's normal. So angry and sad. Yeah. years like but do you think that's part of like maybe you're super creative yeah probably i think i was

just angry at trying to understand everything right and i do i do think it fuels a lot you know i think i've only recently stopped being so angry i think also creative people we just feel really deeply yeah like it's an almost dramatic how deep we feel it's melodramatic it's melodramatic and you feel really as overused as it is, like you do feel really misunderstood by a lot of people. And then it feels the anger because you're like, am I crazy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So many music opinions as well where I'll just talk to someone and just like, no one will get it. Yeah. I'm like, okay. I'm on my own here. Yeah. I think it's the creative brain. I think we have I always say

I'm pretty dramatic inside I feel really really deep if I get angry I get really angry if I get sad I get really sad it's probably like I think some like probably on the like spectrum of like all the stuff like

bipolar all that's all the mental health stuff that they've been able to kind of name now like I think we all exist in on the spectrum of those somehow. Yeah, I agree with you. Whatever our version of it is. I don't think anyone's like not anxious or like not depressed at all unless you're

a psychopaths. But I don't think, you know, anxiety became a really big thing. Psychopaths are a real thing though. Oh, that's a little more about here, I will say. There are real sociopathic, psychopathic people. Oh, yeah. Also, I think that gets mislabel. I do think sometimes people are just like narcissistic, psychopathic.

There's so much more of them that get, I don't know, you can like see one from a mile away. But I think when you have a lot of experience with them. And the amount of, I don't know, just like the amount of like really famous people that you're like, how can no one else? You're a psycho. Can no one see this? I think anyone that can hurt anyone is a psycho. Yeah. And on any level.

Like I really do. I think anyone that can knowingly hurt someone. It's one thing to do an action and it hurts someone and then you know that it hurt them and you go, I'm sorry. I did not mean to do that, right? That's one thing. To me, that's like a healthy response to making mistake is like, whoa, I'm really sorry. Yeah.

The psychotic response is to do it again. and again and again and like that's where I see people where I'm like why are we not just calling this psychotic yeah because I I just and maybe but maybe it's an artist thing because I can't I can't live with feeling like I hurt anyone no I don't want to hurt anyone no that's where the dramatic comes out it's very dramatic I'm like oh my god I don't deserve to be here I'm a terrible person yeah and you don't let it go for for a bit well you get older and you kind of learn how to make repairs and you can get there quick you can go hey I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. As soon as you become aware of it, you can do that.

But it took me years to learn how to do that. I didn't even know how to deal with like disappointing people or hurting them or whatever. But I do think that like, yeah, there's definitely psychos out there. But I think that artists, I think we just feel I think we're wired all similar. So I think your experience is probably not too different from mine. Your version of it, right? Obviously is going to have its own detail. in its own and it could be you could argue it's better or worse whatever but like it's similar probably like our brains wiring is probably the same and I think that like there's a deep need to be under there's a deep feeling of no one understands me and I'm different and then there's probably

things about us that are different and and then I think that like the artistic way we see the world creates a lot of a deeper, higher highs and lower lows. Yeah. Likely we can feel the levels of joy that maybe some people can never feel that level of joy. Yeah. But then also we could feel the depths of despair deeper than maybe. But I think we're lucky because we actually probably understand that a little. Yeah.

Versus someone who's artistic, but it got suppressed and they never got to make art. and they're somewhere in the world working a job. Maybe they don't like. They're in a life that is maybe fine. I think art is the biggest outlet and therapy. And I think there's probably a whole cross-section of people in the world that never got to exercise their artistic streak in them. And that's probably what creates some psychotic suppressed, crazyness.

I don't know. Maybe, I don't know. Angry. But your parents feels like they You guys are cool And they support you We're good now Yeah

I don't think My mom will never understand The music industry She'll never understand She'll never understand what She never understand what I do You know When I told her

I was like Oh yeah I'm doing the Coachella thing And she was like Is that like What's that Big for you? Like where does that Does that mean

It's not your show So I'm like Yeah You'll never get it It's okay It's humbly know It's great She's a makeup artist

So she works with artists all the time. Wow. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. She's a hair makeup artist. She's been doing it for like 30 years.

So she's artistic. Yeah. She did the whole thing. She worked for Vogue, did the everything. Wow. That's a cool job. Yeah. She's cool.

But I never in a million years would guess that she would be a makeup artist. If I didn't know what she did. Right. As a kid, I would be like, you're an accountant. Like, it's very different kind of creative. But yeah, she's very creative. It's application. Yeah.

It's interesting. She's an enigma, that woman. I don't know if I'll ever fully. And likely a lot of the enigmatic things about you are somehow connected to the enigmatic things about her. Yeah, probably. It's a lot more reflection than one might like. When you start realizing you becoming exactly like your parents.

It's terrible. It's terrifying. I had such a conflicted relationship with my dad. and the older I get, the more I realize there's a lot of great things about him that I have. Yeah. Just Apple doesn't fall far from the tree in a lot of ways. Yeah. You know, those things you go like, wow, I, even sometimes it's physical, like you look or a thing.

And then a lot of it, you're like, whoa, that's definitely like similar. Yeah. Freaky. Yeah. It is weird. But you also kind of come to appreciate it as you get older where you're like, there are aspects of someone that I can be conflicted about. There's also aspects that I can also love, cherish, enjoy, care for.

And I don't have, I can separate things out. The older you get, the easier it is, I think, to do. You get further away from the, like, the accidental damage that they did. Yeah. Well, I think resentment just needs time. Yeah. And then also I think the older you get, the more you just forget how intensely that felt, you know.

Yeah. And, you know, you can, you have, you realize that it was their first time parenting. And it was, you know. And then you start, you get to the point where you're like the age that they were when they had you when you're like, Jesus Christ, I would not be ready for a kid. How'd you do it? Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Crazy. How old was your mom when she had you? Oh, she was older. She was like probably in her 30s. Okay. Yeah. It's a good age.

Yeah. What about your dad? Probably similar, probably just a bit older. Yeah, they're probably just more stable, more ready for it, rather than like super young. I couldn't imagine 20-somethings having kids. No. It just blows my mind still. I can't take care of myself.

I had my kids when I was 29 and I wasn't ready. Yeah. And I probably spent the first five years just stabilizing and figuring it out. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? I always tell my kids, I feel lucky because they're so. easy. Yeah. They made it easy. They were so easy. Understand how why these two are so easy. Yeah. Yeah. Like good kids and they're, they're so easy. So I would say you guys made it easy.

But God, I couldn't imagine probably like 22 or three. Forget about it. Because you don't even know who you are yet. How do you, you know, you almost don't have the time to figure that out then. What was the hardest thing about, and maybe it wasn't hard. Do you, you, you, you said you, I mean, there's always an aspect that's hard. I don't care what anyone says, but you started 13, trying to write songs, 14, 15. So you're, it feels like you had space, though, because you weren't really allowed to run out the gate until you were 18, which I think is really, really, whoever helped make that decision, you'll thank them for the rest of your life. Yeah.

It could go really wrong if you're young and you have success. at the wrong time, it can be a disaster. But what do you think the hardest part of, from whatever age you would say, you started to when you went out the gate into the world and started working, that four or five years? In the riding, sort of? Just in general. Was it something you knew you wanted to do right away?

Yeah, I mean, I can never pinpoint when I started riding because I just keep finding stuff from when I was younger and younger. Like, I've always been a. writer, not necessarily like writing on, just like physically writing. Like writing poems and yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, that was, you know, from I was like four or five, like always writing. And then, yeah, I probably would have been like 12 when I picked up a guitar. And I was like, ah, you know, maybe this is it. So your parents encouraged creative. Yeah, my dad played guitar. Okay. My mom was like, I didn't think you could sing. Like, you know. My dad was, like, I didn't

And I was like, no, she can sing. She's got a voice. Yeah. Yeah. But they were very much like, whenever like, you know, they, I don't think they ever thought that I'd ever really do anything. Right. But they kept the tools around. Yeah.

You know, they let me go to singing lessons. Yeah. You know, did the whole thing, I guess. There's something to that. Yeah. No, I'm really appreciative of them doing that. But like, even if they say one thing, I think sometimes it's pretty. parents were like, we're trying to protect the kids from the disappointment if they get to...

A hundred percent. But there's a hope in you that they actually can do it. Yeah. I think there's something like that. Definitely. I think I went for a long period of time being like, oh, my God, I will literally never impress my mother. And then I went through another period of being like super resentful of that and being like

nothing I do, you know, get there. And then I don't know. I think it was like only recently I started being like, I'm really appreciative for the way that she raised me like that because I will now never do anything for trying to get someone else to be impressed. Right. Which I feel like it can go one way or the other. Yeah.

But I'm like, if I don't like something, I'm not gonna just sort of like show it to a bunch of people and be like, but what do you think? You know? It's like it's all for yourself. She like kind of unintentionally taught me to, it doesn't matter. matter if someone else is impressed with you. Because everyone can tell you, like, it doesn't matter if someone else is, like, not impressed with you. But there's also something bad about, not bad, but, you know, it has its own side to it if you're just, like, doing things to try and get

approval from other people. Or to build on the last approval, because I think it's something like this two shall pass. You know, I think it's something like that on both sides. Exactly. So it's like a big loss, this will pass. We'll live to play another day, right? A big win, this will pass. Yeah. We'll live to play another day. I think I have adopted that mentality a lot more.

Sometimes, you know, too much where I'll be like, don't get too excited kind of thing. Yeah. But it's good because you don't fall so hard when you have a big positive. There's definitely a post-win crash. Oh, yeah. One thing I've kind of like noticed, there are different kinds of artists, right? Finding the balance of being able to win like well to be a good winner. And then it's something like, thanks, we tried our best.

All right, we'll see you tomorrow. Get back at it, you know. And the same with a loss. Thanks. You know, it's too bad. We didn't win, but we tried our best. And it was a good game. We'll see you tomorrow.

You know, it's kind of something like that. I've seen some people after a big win, almost like it's an anxiety thing or something, they start chopping heads off. Yeah. They start spitting. You know, it's a bad winner. It's like, not only did I win, I'm going to make you all feel bad about it or angry about it or something about it that isn't just like, hey, that's cool.

Like, there's nothing better than seeing someone win and like being able to participate in the joy of like celebrating them and not feeling bad. Like, I don't know. It's weird. Because if there can only be one winner in this situation or that situation or, you know, someone won an award, but all these other people didn't. But somehow to help everyone come along and win with you, I think is the healthier version of that. And I think it's like all of our sports heroes and music heroes, they do that, I think. They somehow make us all feel good about it.

And then sometimes you see people that I think don't. And I don't think it's like an evil plot. I think it's like some kind of confliction they have with. Yeah. Or it could be the way they were raised. Yeah. Like the situations. Even like high school trauma, that shit stays with you.

Did you have high school trauma? Not necessarily because I just, I moved so much. Like I went from school to school. Why did you move? Just my parents just wanted to. They were just like, you know, we're sick of it here. Let's go somewhere else. and um you know i think that that was good because it was bad because i felt quite disconnected from

people but i had a lot of alone time and i liked being alone what ages was that when you were moving a lot oh from like from like you know seven to like maybe 16 okay i think that's probably something yeah well i think it really helped me you know nothing felt big in high school like nothing, the drama and like the intense, you know, you're a teenager for the first time, you're experiencing these emotions for the first time, you know, you're understanding lows and why you're feeling low and then it feels like it's the biggest thing in the world. But I think that because I experienced like the same types of high school cliches in different places.

With new groups of people, you're always a new, you're always a new. That probably in, I think we adapt and we pick up like our weaknesses become our strength always. So a thing that is a threat, we either neutralize it or we turn it into strength, right? So moving around would at first be, I think, a very kind of like unstable, hard way to live until you turn it into a way you live and you're really good at it. Well, I think it's why I can tour and move around because I just never really felt too tired anywhere. Yeah. But also, you know, I'm like, I've met seven versions of, you know, this type of person in seven different places. So if this person doesn't like me, it's like not the end of the world.

Were you moving really far away from where? Or was it like locally kind of? Like all within the same state, but like, you know, a few hours each way. So there's not a lot of crossover of people. Right. And hard to kind of like, like, I guess at that age. That's when you're like having your first relationships. You're establishing all that stuff.

It's kind of hard to do that if you're moving all the time, right? Yeah. I kept close with a few people from, you know, and they're still my long-term friends, but they're all from different. Right. And they've all met each other now because we'll fly to see each other. But you still have friends from your.

Yeah, I have like one friend from each area. Right. I've kind of stuck around, which is cool. That's cool. Yeah. But also. I think there's something to, like, stability. You know, there's good and bad.

I think that stability is my issue now, though. Because staying too much in the one place is, like, starting to, you know. Gets to you. Yeah, because you're like, oh, okay, it's too long here now. I have the same thing. We moved around a lot in my, like, from like nine to when I left home, 17. 9, 10 to 17. We were moving around all the time.

We just like, and it was more of a financial thing. So we'd lose this house. Couldn't. So it was constant like all the sudden we'd have to move in a span of like a month. Suddenly we have to move. And it made me really good at living out of a bag. So I can tour and travel, no problem. But I realized the anxiety that that caused.

I'm a good traveler, but I'm an anxious traveler. Yeah, because where's the next place? And I just kind of became anxious. And then I realized like, oh, I'm just anxious. And then also, God bless my wife, she just had to like just like slowly unpack it. But like staying in one place is always been tough. And now I'm good at it now at this age. But it took years to work through like, we don't need to move.

This house is fine. Yeah. We need to sell our house. Yeah. We don't need to move. Like, because you're basically just out of college, essentially. Yeah. I mean, I didn't really go to uni.

Yeah, but like in life. In life, yeah. So, like, you graduate high school around 18 and then you go to college. Like, you went to the college of life. Yeah. Of music. With the music industry. Releasing music, making songs.

So now you've essentially, the way I see it, I'm like, oh, you got a degree. Feels a bit like that. It feels to me like you're right. at that next point where you're about to really do your best work. I feel that. Even though your work is great, it feels like you really understand it all now. Yeah, a lot of what I've put out, you know, it does feel like that was me figuring it out rather than being like, you know, I've never put out, I mean, I've only put out two sort

of small projects, but I never put it out being like, this is me, this is done, this is what I represent. it's kind of more been like, this is me learning how to write and this is me learning more about sound and I think the next thing that I'm working on is more like I want to take my time and I know what I've been missing

and I know what I don't like which is kind of more important than knowing what you do like. And yeah, sort of working on just like doing something that feels as authentic to me as possible for myself, not, you know, so I can walk around and be like, I'm fucking authentic, you know. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I'm grateful for the figuring it out, though, rather than having, like, someone come in and, you know, make it good for me. Yeah. That makes sense. Because then you'd have to just figure it out later. Yeah, but I don't look at you and I don't see someone who would, like, maybe let that happen. Yeah, I get, that's where the really intense emotion comes into it.

Because if, you know, if I have a songwriter in a session with me, which I don't often like, because I don't believe that I'm at the point where I can collaborate efficiently because I'm still figuring it out. Yeah, it feels really intense. If you feel trapped in a situation where you're like, whoa, no, I don't like this. How do I say it? The direction, yeah. And I don't, I'm not at a point where I know how to articulate what I need and what I

don't need from you. Took me years. It's so hard. And it's so emotional. And to own it is a whole other thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't think I could ever just be like, well, I'll never use this song, guys, so we should come back tomorrow. Like, I just, I'll stay there for another six hours, just internally convulsing on the couch, being like, I don't know what to do.

It's all ending right here. It's all coming to an end. And then you kind of, as you get older, you realize, like, no, no, it was a six hour experiment of figuring out what no feels like. That's a cool way to do it. You know what I mean? than being like, oh, God, I don't know if I can keep doing this. I do think, though, that, like, that's all it is. Figuring out what a no feels like.

What no feels like, what yes feels like. Yeah. And if I can trust my internal navigator and just trust yes and no. Like, I think life is as simple as yes and no. It's complicated, but, like, we know what yes feels like if we think about it. If we ever think about that moment in our life, that was a yes, like, you've got that record deal. or whatever it means to you, the song, you heard it on the radio and you were like, yes, that's what yes feels like.

And then what does no feel like? There's a bunch of versions of no we could probably say. Like that feels like no. That feels like no. The needles just bouncing off the, like if we can really get in tune with that, I think it gets easier and easier. And then learn how to articulate it, right? Like, hey guys, I really appreciate you.

For whatever reason, it's not happening for me today. Sorry, I don't want to waste everyone's time. I don't know how you have that conversation, but sometimes you have to. And sometimes you don't. Just sit there for six hours and you go. I feel like it's, they will appreciate it more too. Because sometimes when you're in that, you're like, surely everybody in this room is feeling this as well, too. Also, it takes like people, it takes a lot of confidence on both sides.

If someone comes to me and says, I don't want to work with you. I don't ever take it personal at this age. I don't think I would either. My young age, though, I did. I felt a need or something. I understand that people need different things. And, like, you know, I could have best friend in the world who's a great writer and writes on everything, but be like, I can't work with you.

Yeah. But, you know, either it's because we see the world differently or, you know, sometimes I'm too close to people to be able to work with them because I'm like, I kind of don't want you to experience me in my state. I want you to experience the best version of me, the one that I give you. Yeah. Because it is real. I think people also view like songwriting sessions, like if they're not in them.

It's like they picture that like Elton John, you know, sitting at a piano with the, you know, best friends kind of. And a lot of the time it is like kind of just staring at the floor, having an internal breakdown, not being able to vocalize anything, being like, I don't know if I can do this. Or, you know, and there's the other side of it where you're all kind of just jamming and there's no thought. I don't know. There's so many different versions of it, of that experience. And which version of you do you want certain people to experience? Like, it's a really weird thing because it's not that any one of them is not real. The version of me that I want certain people to experience is really me. And it's the best version of me. But I also know I can't bring that person over here because the version of me that's here, only like five people get that version.

because that's, I don't know, it's just, there is the you that's anxious, getting ready for something that's talking. Like, for me, it's like my brother gets every version of me and I could be like, I don't know, dude, I just don't think I look, I got to go do this thing and I hate the way I look. Or I don't know, like something like that. I don't want everyone to have that version. You know what I mean? Because the better version of me is confident and I feel confident. But there's certainly a version of me that's not confident about something. And that's the only certain people I want to have that experience.

And it's really personal. And in writing, that's a weird spot because it's like trying to pick your outfit or trying to pick, I don't know, like it's everybody has their thing that they're not confident about. Some people that might be how they look or some people that might be singing or whatever. Making art is a really vulnerable, weird space. Like who can you share that with for real? Yeah, especially if you like kind of have to be that version.

and you've just met this person. Yeah. And you're like, oh my God, I don't even know your last name and I'm crying on your couch. And this feels more uncomfortable than progressive. I don't know. But then you meet creative partners that make you feel really comfortable. Exactly.

And that's when you know it's a yes. It's like love at first sight type thing. Like you know right away almost like, oh, this is a real one. Like for me anyways. Great. I feel like I didn't even really get to get into what you're, doing and where you're going, but what is the thing you're the most excited about for the next year, the next phase, this next chapter? Probably writing, I think, yeah, probably finding the

process that feels the best for me and like just trying heaps of stuff. And yeah, I think I'm in a phase now where I just want to write for ages until it feels right and not, you know, sort succumbed to a timeline. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I'm excited for you. I hope you find that streak. Thank you.

You know, when you hit that and you start just crushing. Yeah. Yeah, I hope you find that. I know the, I know the, I know the, the, the, the, the, the spot. It's exciting when you're like, when you're searching. Yeah. And then you hit it. Yeah.

And then you just start crushing songs. Yeah. You know, it's great. Yeah. I feel like I've had many. versions of that but you know big project wise just really making something that I'm proud of yeah yeah well you're super cool thanks so music's good and I mean you've done a lot for 22 you're in my opinion like you're you're you're you're poised to hit that artistic

spot. I think you're poised for that, like that next chapter. It's cool. Thanks for coming here. Thanks, talking. Awesome. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support and we'll see you next time.