Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Michael Clifford of 5SOS

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Michael Clifford of 5SOS. Clifford is best known as 5SOS’ lead guitarist and backing vocalist with vibrant hair, helping to shape the band through his energetic presence. He’s also been unafraid to acknowledge his struggles with mental health, telling us that “it gets bad before it gets better” and using the feeling to fuel his songwriting. As the years have passed, each of the members has branched out with solo music while holding the band close — and now Clifford will release his debut solo single, “cool,” through his new home Hopeless Records (out tomorrow, April 2). In a conversation with Madden, he dives into fatherhood, his long career, and the humanness of songwriting. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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under control. New Potion 9 of Sebastian, the secreto professional, of who don't seein tendences, but of who are the kids Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with singer, songwriter and the lead guitarist of the multi-platin band Five Seconds a Summer, Michael

Clifford. His first single cool off his new upcoming solo album is out today. Let's go. I don't know where to start because we've known each other for so long. I know. But, you know, it's been a minute since we've caught up. Yeah. When I met you. you, you had to be 15. Yeah, 16, 17. Yeah, 16, 17, whatever. Like, young. Yeah.

What's this, the stark difference in your life? Oh, having a baby. That's it. Sleck. Easy. Next question. Don't you feel like until you have a kid, you don't get it, and then you have a kid and you're like,

life doesn't start until you have a kid? Like, sometimes I'll hear people be like, you know, difficulty and, like, challenges. that I thought were like challenging before having a kid are all of a sudden to me like the most trivial thing in the world. I'm like

yeah working for 12 hours I'm like not a big deal like none of it is a big deal like after having a baby. It's like when should we release this song I'll fucking care. It's like whenever it's right in between the kid

doing this and doing that maybe like yeah during nap time when you're when you're plugged in. When you're plugged in, there's certainly like different approaches to parenting. Some people like abandon their kids. It's just one. There's like two major. Yeah. Two major strategies. Yeah. Stay in your kids life. Yeah. We're abandoned. And try. Yeah. Or like to think that I'm trying to stay out of that second line. I chose to stay in and try, right? So I have two kids. They're teenagers. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. But also they're like with every stage, you're like

in a new stage, but once you have those kids, everything else just feels like less consequential. Yeah, totally. That's how I feel. Yeah. For me, I'm like, the things that come with life are like all great and like, you know, everything that I'm working towards this year and the things that I'm doing are like, you know, big things and things I wanted to do for a long time and like, you know, come with their challenges and this and that.

But like ultimately at the end of it, I'm good. Yeah, you're like, life and kid is good. Yeah. I mean, that's good. I'm good. Yeah, I'm like, everything else is like, I can just kind of like, you know, even, you know, I, hating that I'm doing kind of like a segue thing, but I don't mean for it to be like that. But I named my, I named my album side quest. And it's funny because I feel like everything outside of being apparent to me is sort of like a side quest now. That's how I feel. Yeah. It's like everything else you kind of just do is like all these other little things. And then you have this like. grounding base that just becomes your like, like, man, what's going on with baby? Like, what's she doing? Yeah. And also, it's, it's like, I care deeply about what I'm doing. I care deeply about the side quests. I care deeply about everything I'm doing. They're not any less, like, significant or insignificant. But when you go home, you don't feel at, like, it does, I actually feel like it's the first time, the first time I could ever switch off. Yeah.

the thing in my brain that was obsessed with music. With the whole thing, right? Because when you're obsessed with your music, you have to be obsessed with your music to make, in my opinion, to make good music and to go forward and try. You have to take it seriously and be obsessed with it. But sometimes when you go home,

if you can't turn it off, it can drive you over the edge and it can drive you a little mad. And I think that when I had my kids, it was the first time where something became more important, period, like whether it's in the moment or in the big picture. Yeah. And in both ways, like, yes, I need to work.

I need to do things that make me feel like I'm doing something with my life. But when I get home, they don't care how the song did or the record did or the total did. It doesn't matter. It don't care about all in the best way. Can I watch an episode of Peppa Pig? Yeah. It's like, that's the, yeah. Yeah, it's cute.

It's awesome. Nice. Yeah. I also was thinking about this. I saw something somewhere or read something. I forget where, oh, you know where it was? It was in the Robbie Williams movie. Did you see that? So there's, he did this movie and it's like a biopic, but it's a monkey. I've heard of it. I love, I've heard of it. It's kind of wild because the monkey does some wild stuff. I want to watch it. But it's really actually like really cool. Is the monkey a good actor or like? Yeah. Is that the vibe? Yeah. Yeah. I think he. does the voice of it. I'm not sure.

Oh, that's cool. But it's like, it's like they use CGI. So it's like a Gallum type, like CGI character. Well, well, like, you know, I can imagine that he had to wear like a body suit and shoot and then they, like Andy Circus. Right. So anyways, I thought the movie was a great picture of like what it must feel like to go through. I related to it in some ways. Yeah. What it go to go through like pop success. Like in whatever you want to call pop success. we both have experienced it. There's a lot of amazing aspects of it,

and then there's a lot of crazy, silly, stupid aspects of it. And it's weird because you can't really have one without the other. It just feels like nuts. But his perspective on it was really, like, good. Anyways, in the movie, he said, they say you get stuck at the age, you get famous. And I thought about that, because I never thought about that before. And I was like, that kind of feels a little right.

Like, there's something that feels. a little true to that. So I don't know if I was stuck at 22, but I kind of feel like I was for a very, very long time. Because I'd say that was about the age where I experienced fame. And it kind of hit me.

That's an interesting quote. When I heard it, it hit me. Like something hit me. I was like, whoa, I never thought about that, but I kind of feel like that was true. And then what snapped me out of it was my kids. When I had my kids, it was like

I got back to growing. Yeah. That is really interesting. To me, I feel like, When I'm with my daughter, I'm very much like an adult. And I'm like, adulting. I'm dad, you know? Because you got to keep her alive.

And then, yeah, she's, if not for me, she's, I mean, there's other people who will help keep her alive, but I help too. But there's a very primal thing there. Totally, yeah. But then as soon as I leave that situation and as soon as I'm like, you know, working or doing anything else, I'm back to being like, 16 for me. I'm like, I'm like, I have this like switch where I'm like when I'm with her, I'm like, now I have to do this thing and I have to be this adult and, you know, this role model

for her and I need her to know how much I love her. And then as soon as I get out of it, I'm like, I like a switch in my brain flips and I turn into a kid again. Yeah. And I'm really trying to why you look so young. Oh, I appreciate you saying that. But I'm, I'm trying to embrace that, that part of like, you know, getting to watch someone, especially this, you know, human that you love so much, experience all these things for the first time that to like, you know, and this is like very, you know, obvious as a dad, but like getting to experience all these things that are like so trivial to us that, you know, you just experience every single day. Like, I don't know, like, she would be like, oh my God, a water bottle. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, put the water.

bottle down and she's like, she's can't believe it, you know, and like, like, like, seeing her experience these things, I'm like, fuck man, why am I so jaded? Like that is a cool, that is a cool water bottle. That's fucking sick, like, like play with that. Just don't swallow the top. Yeah, that is what I was always scared of too. Like, just no eating anything, but you can like do whatever you want. It's pretty cool though, like they can have fun anywhere.

Yeah, if we do anything. But I feel like rock and roll guys, like I do think that we, allow our kids to have more fun. I do think that. I think we're like less uptight in a lot of ways. Yeah. Some ways we might like

might not be. I'm pretty like I'm pretty strict schedule. Schedules are good. That's like my, that's my stick as a parent. I'm like it's, you know. Why do you think that is? I don't know.

It's probably control issues. I don't know. Well maybe like, but maybe you didn't have schedules. So maybe you feel like I'm like I need her to be like on this certain schedule for her. Because I know,

I know especially how important it is for baby to be on, you know, routine and stuff. So I just, some structure. Yeah. And I didn't have a lot of routine,

you know, during my kind of late adulthood when we, you know, you know how it is when you get into this thing. You're just like, you never know what's going to happen the next day or whatever.

So I feel like I'm trying to like, trying to like counterweight my lack of schedule with like, look how, cool it is to have a schedule. Yeah. Maybe. I think so. I think I like had a, if I think about all the trauma I suffered across my life from my childhood to then my career, there's plenty of trauma in there. There's like little things that

like you just, you don't realize until after like that you try to counter as a parent. You're just trying to protect them from like what you think is bad. Yeah. Yeah. So with the record, how long do you take you to make this record? Ten years? long time. Yeah. It was like some of the songs are like, some of them are like five years old. And then some of them are like, you know, mixed last week, like finished last week. So it kind of like I was making, I was making a version of my album sort of before having a kid. And what's so interesting about this album for me is like I talk a lot about being a dad and stuff in, in person because it's, you know, clearly like the biggest thing in my life.

But it's not actually like it's not an album about being a dad. No, yeah, I didn't get that either. It's not, it's not that for me. So what's interesting is like I made a bunch of a bunch of music and then sort of like we did our last record. And then like when I sort of like after having, you know, after we have my daughter and then I like came back to revisit it and sort of like go to finish it. I sort of was like, man, I want to, I like pretty much strapped it all and like started again. And not because I wanted it to be about being a dad at all. It was just like I think like having those experiences and seeing her like discover things and like learn things for the first time.

It sort of gave me this like inspiration of like man like I really wanted to embrace things that felt really, really, really childlike and really, really just like. like based on nothing other than just like joy and like just fun. Like the whole thing to me, I just want it to feel like the most fun thing I've ever done. Even though some of the like topics are, you know, heavier at times or whatever, I feel like I just,

I still want it to just feel like something that like, I listen to and like everything I make. I want to look at and just smile the whole time. And I think that like, that like when I scrap, everything and started again. I didn't go into it with the intention of like, you know, no, I'm dad. It has to be about that at all. It was just like, it was just like I wanted to, I just wanted to inject this new thing of like, you know, when you have a kid, you just change so much instantly

overnight. It's like whatever you thought you knew is just like completely 180 on its head. So like, I just wanted to feel like I injected and the new me. Yeah. In it, maybe. Honestly, I feel like when I heard it, I listened to the, I got a link to it. Cool is out now today. Yeah. So for the sake of that song.

But what I found was what I hear is, it doesn't sound like you're singing about being a dad. It sounds like someone who knows where they're at. It sounds very, like, you're very honest in it. And like, in a very, like, you way, like, it's got some serious. it's got some bite, it's got some fun, it's got some, but like it feels like someone who's just good with like they're really where they're at. So I don't hear like, oh, he's a dad. I hear like, oh, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, yeah. I think I just learned so much about myself through that experience that I wanted to make sure

that like, you know, I was able to be self-aware of who, who I was in, in the music as well, you know, and I really wanted to try and not be vague with things sometimes. Like I wanted to try and be specific on like who I am and the like things that I've, you know, happen to me and like sometimes like it scared the shit out of me being able to like say something like bluntly. Very blunt. In a song. I enjoy that.

Like and it was not totally out of the norm for me, you know, having been a part of a band for my entire life. It's sort of like the things that you say and the things that, you know, the lyrics. that are represented have to sort of represent you as a as a group you know depending on like who's who's singing them or whatever you can kind of diverge or whatever but like there was something interesting about this being like what like what's something that only i can say like you know encore being like the guy who caught fire and you know what i mean just like something that is like just just me i just found that that was like an interesting point for me that i was like man if

I'm going to experiment and try something on my own, like, why not try something that, like, feels like... It's nice to hear, too, because it also is, like, everything that I love about Vives Us, you each have moments. There's, like, moments on records that I go, that are really, like, great. And then when I hear you, I'm like, oh, it's really nice. It's, like, it's nice to hear, like, the singular person making music. Yeah.

And it's good. I mean, it's scary. Dude, it's so scary. I've never, like, I've never, like, sung, like, you know, I feel like, people still don't really know my, like, complete voice. Yeah. So, like, you know, it's just horrifying that, like, now it's... Yeah, there wasn't enough room on those records for you to show the range of things you do.

It's just hard when there's four, like, there's four of us, and we each have so many different, you know, like, like, styles and things that, like, everyone wants to see. and I love that we're at this new kind of avenue where like people can see us now individually for who we are and then we have this like group thing too that like you can attach to that as well as the thing. You know, it's just fun. But I also think that's part of like the band, it's natural.

Yeah. This is where a band has to go. Yeah. Like a band has to grow and it has to like become at every age, every stage, every version, it has to feel like it's growth. And that's what I feel like it's growth. Yeah.

It feels like growth. Yeah. And I think that you're going to have a really good experience getting to like express yourself because that's what I hear on this record. I just hear someone expressing themselves and having the space to do it. Like if we were making a record 10 years ago with the band or five years ago with a band, we'd be like, you do that Michael thing right there. Yeah.

You do that thing there. And everybody's doing their thing. And you get to where you really only get to do like two moves. Yeah. And like that's it. You have 30 seconds. There's only so much time or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, you want more as an artist. Yeah. And fuck it. Like you should be able to go and make a whole ass record. Yeah. Say whatever you want and put it out.

And like what I love that there's no like, there's nothing weird about it. No. Between us. It's like it's just fun to do and like, you know, like the irony is I wrote cool with Callum, you know? That's cool. Like the, that's the craziest part is the very first thing that I'm going to put out as me is like fucking Callum's a part of it too. I'm like, of course. You know, like, of course it's Gallum. So I just think that there's like, you know, that that's, that is what's so fun about, about how we've been growing and sort of like, that is growth. Like communicating

with each other is like letting, letting ourselves, like letting each other fly so that that's kind of sounds lame, but like, you know, letting each other do our thing or whatever and then, and then, like, not being weird or it doesn't change the level of support or whatever that we give each other for it, you know? I think that's the natural, like, growth arc. I think it's like, okay, when you're young, first of all, it takes a few years just for everything to fucking sink in and, like, you to get your head around. And, like, the dust to kind of settle and be like, okay.

And then you, like, it takes a few more years to get a little bit of, like, you. like a real life back where you're like, oh, I'm a real person. I live a real life. Yeah. Going to the grocery store for me, like in the beginning, it was like the coolest thing ever. I just couldn't believe it. It was like, it was like four or five years of being an adult before I actually like went to a grocery store. Yeah, you were literally on a tour bus. And got to like buy something that you could like take home and like maybe cook. It'd be like, it was so cool. Yeah. I know what that feels like. But like you're when you're on a tour bus for 10 years and you have literally every day is spoken for her and then when you have a day off you're just

your your mind is numb you're just like uh what do i do and you're like maybe i'll just drink you know what i mean like yeah i mean what else like but then on the other side of all that and you're like no i'm a person yeah i can do things and you go back out into the world it's pretty amazing in some ways and then you have some other stuff to work out oh yeah there's little things but and then you all start to realize like, oh, we love each other. We just need some time and space to like have lives. And then when you come back together,

you're like, I fucking love you guys. It's 100%. You went through that too. Like the thing where you like, you like, it's almost the thing where like when you have to hang out with somebody, it's like, fuck. You know, and then all of a sudden

then you get the choice and you're like, I really want to hang, you know, like I miss you. Yeah. But there is like a, there is like this thing that we're, I think like no one is supposed to talk about, right? When you become a slave to the success because you don't want to let go of the opportunity, I'm the same way. Like, and by the way, that is actually the right approach, like to not let up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when there's no space for like a human being to like exist in that, otherwise you're ungrateful complainer or whatever you are, it starts to become resentful to we turn on each other. Right. because we feel like we're stuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when we get some space from it,

now I'd say, like, with our band, we had our moments on the roller coaster rides and stuff, but, like, we're better than we've ever been. Yeah. We all love each other. Also, like, it's a group decision if we can tour because everyone has kids. Yeah.

And, like, there's no resentment there at all. And everyone's like, what month is good? Yeah. Trying to figure this out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, we do figure it out, little by little, but being able to step away, even for a year and give time to someone you love and then another person shows up, this little baby.

Grimel. And then you get to spend time on that. It does give you like some really, I think, I think it just gives you some like spiritual perspective that you go back to things with, with like, wiser and I think better. Yeah, for sure. For sure. You know? Like your chops on this record are good. Like when I listen to the record, I'm like, great songwriting, great singing. It's like, you're not worse for it. You're better for this record.

Yeah, and I think it really like, it brings out the best of you because you're like, you know, you want to be the best version of yourself and no longer you're trying to be the best version of yourself for you anymore or to like appease other people. It's like there's like a new reason to do it and like the most valid one. that you've ever had in your whole life or all of a sudden you're like, man, I'm like, I know, you know, she might never even watch this interview, but like, I want to crush this just in case, you know? Like, it's my legacy that I'm leaving behind for her one day. So I'm like, if I say some dumb shit in this interview, then it sucks for her. Yeah. So hopefully that wasn't

stupid to say. No, it's real. I feel the same way. I'm always like, I want my kids, my kids don't listen to this, but they might one day. Yeah, they might. And I don't want to miss it on like, yeah, I don't want to misrepresent them. Like, I always try to like thread the needle of what I can say about my kids without them

feeling like I'm misrepresenting. Right. Anything about them. Because the older they get, the more autonomy they went from you. And like, I want them to have that. I want them to be their own people,

do whatever the fuck they want. And I just love them and I want to support them. But I'm also proud of them. So I want to like gush about them. Yeah. Yeah, it's a fine balance. Yeah, it's weird. It's easier when they're little and then when they get older, it's like...

I'm like, all I want to do is just like post her everywhere on social media. Just like my whole feed, just run with it. And then like every time you do it, people are like, don't post your kid. Stop posting her. And I'm like, why? Like, I want to do it. And then it makes sense. It's like, you know, she might one day be like, why would you post me so much as a baby?

I hate this baby picture that now is escaped that I like can't take off the internet. I was like, but I think you look so cute, or whatever. Some shit you just got to do. You know, like, sometimes I'm just like, you look awesome. It's going up. And you're always going to be dad. So some shit about us is always just going to be. Yeah, she's going to cringe it.

Yeah. Like, like whatever dystopian platform she's using in 15 years. She's going to be like, you know, 3D holograms. Like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, you can't help that. Are you going to tour? Maybe. Maybe.

Maybe. You got some... You're working on some stuff. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, I could. Maybe not?

Maybe. Well, the truth of the matter is, is... Would you come and see me if I played? Yes. Okay, cool. The truth of matter for me is it's always a maybe. Yeah. Because I'll say all do some shit and then about...

Never do it. Or maybe you will. As soon as it becomes real and they're like, okay, we got... I told me. I don't know. But we're playing more shows this year. Yeah. We're playing like five.

I saw y'all play my movie young and it was sick. Oh, you saw that? Yeah. I came on the stage with you guys. Yes. Yeah. And I fucked up the lines a little bit. I saw, yeah, no, I saw y'all play and it was amazing.

I watched from the front of house area I was allowed in, finagled my way in. Was it good from the front of house? It was great. Oh, great. It was awesome. It's crazy that, like, Luke's first show was a good Charlotte show. That's crazy. And not that I was there with Luke when he saw you guys for the first time, but even just me in the crowd,

I was like crazy that that was like Luke's first show. But I'm like, this is cool. Yeah, it's crazy. It makes you feel old. I was about to say, did I? No, you know, I, I kind of like being older. I kind of feel like great about it. That's awesome.

I like love my age. You don't give like old vibes. So I feel like that's cool. That's good. You know, like it's cool to be able to like have stuff like that and not feel old. I'm truly middle aged. Really? I'm a middle aged man.

Are you like a, are you a boomer? No, I'm Gen X. X? What's a number? You're not a boomer. Nick, what's my? You're Gen X. Gen X.

Yeah, you're not a Gen X. Gen X is like 90s. Oh, grew up in the 90s. I'm, I'm a millennial. You're a millennial. Yeah.

Do I give millennial? Me asking them. You're not Gen Z. I don't think so. Gen Z's bad. Is it? My kids are Gen Z. Are my kids Gen Z?

Yeah. Do you can't mess with them. That's the new army. Gen Z will destroy you. What's my daughter? Born of 2023. What's she been? Oh, I don't know.

Gen Alpha. Ooh, Alpha. Alpha, that's nice. That's a good name. They might save it. They might come in and save everything. Yeah, they can be coming through. So I was reading about humanoid robots.

Yeah, okay. Let's really get into the good shit. So your kid is going to be in the lifetime of humanoid robots. Like real, like people that look like me and you is like 50 to 100 years somewhere in there. Like I robot kind of. I think it'll be 50 years. I think they'll get there faster. Wow. Yeah. But then they said, we'll get to see it. Then they said like somewhere in that 50 to 100 year period, there's going to be like major movements for rights for AI, autonomous and robots and stuff like for them to have rights.

Okay. Well, you know, I'm all for rights. But for robots. Well, I mean, we haven't invented them yet. So like, should we maybe lay the, the Tesla robot will be available, I think next year. that's from what I read and I'm gonna buy one yeah for sure what are you gonna have it do like the dishes get stuff for me

you ride in the car with me but think about it like I just imagining you in the car riding well think about it like that was your day and they're like three two one

seven you're like if your robots in the car it's safer I think like is it you think I do I think like you could be like get out and go

get the like drop this package off. I don't know. Like running errands. Running errands. I don't know. I just think it'll be great. And I can have it do like...

Do it like a over package side gig. That sounds cool. Chores around the house, folding clothes. Just don't see it doing a very good job. I do actually. Really? Yeah.

And I think it'll be AI learning. It can't be worse than me folding clothes. But it'll get better. Yeah. Like it'll learn and all of a sudden it'll have rights. Or it's just like if it was with me, think about this, if it went like shopping with me. Like at the mall. That's embarrassing.

All right. But yes. Right. And then I'm just like, hold these. And it would just hold my bags while I'd walk around. But there's always going to be that thing where you feel bad for being like, the guy of the robot. Yeah. Well, you'll be like hold this.

And then they'll be like holding it. Someone will be like, what an asshole move. Like you're having your robot hold. You know? Yeah. I would think that. And even though it's a robot. Yeah.

So that's where you're getting into. the robot considerations, the rights and stuff. Am I pro robot? You're actually like, you strike, are you like very left. Really? I'm on the left side of this? Your position of robots is like too. Are you a right-wing robotist?

I would say my politics generally skew left in general. And then there's, with robots, I would say I'm probably like a far right. I'm very conservative I want them here now Yeah They have to do exactly what you say I will have like four of them in the house You will pull up and there will be like

Like a greeting service There'll be one in the freaking yard doing yard work There'll be one washing my car And one like playing with my dog I hope they flashed back to this interview And like this interview will be in like black and white in like a hundred years when it's when it's just robots in the world and it's like an example of someone who's like, and guess who they're going to let live.

No, you're on the wrong side. No, no, you guys are going to get duped. You think? They're going to get all the rights and then kill you all. Oh, yeah. They're going to remember the people who started them, who got them started. Actually, I don't think they would be that compassionate. I think they'll just kill us all.

And so then why you're... I don't think they have any feelings at all. We got to program them with some feelings, maybe. I'm looking forward to that day. Yeah. No, me too. Now, I'm really excited now.

All that to say is that our kids are going to be the generations to experience, like, like those amazing inventions and stuff. And suddenly I don't feel like I'm missing out. Yeah. So if we zoom back in on our own lives and our own careers, it's so insignificant. Yeah, totally.

in the greater picture of like what the world's going to look like. Like what everything is. In like, you know, 50, 100 years. But the legacy of your music will be... Listen to by robots. Absolutely. You'll hear that. We'll be vibing out.

Yeah. Like, remember that album? Side quest? They'll be like, no. I don't know, though. That's important. Like, I think the legacy that you have in music is really, it really is something that you have to, like, kind of dream.

up and imagine like what does that look like if the last 15 years or longer something like that since you've been in in making music yeah were the backstory to the next 15 yeah you have a great backstory that's true i didn't think of it like backstories i think you like yeah i like that i like that that's very much getting into my like dungeons and dragon psyche yeah i'm like and i think we're taught in music and like in the music business like we're only as good as our last fucking like hit and it's kind of like not true. Yeah. And really not true. But then we hit these spots where we have to live life a little bit so we can make art again. And then we start making art again. And then like things change. Like I just think it's like a really, what you're doing is really important. And like a lot of

people are just too scared to do it. It feels nice to hear. It's nice to see all of you guys from five sus doing different stuff. Yeah. Because you're spreading your wings a little bit and you're just like living your lives. And I guarantee you the moments you, the moments you, you come back together are going to be better every time. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I feel too. We always use this really cringy analogy of like, we all go and make like their solo superhero movies.

And then we like come back for like the big Avengers blockbuster. And it's kind of a lame way of thinking of it. But I think there's no other analogy I found that's better. So if anyone else has any, you know, step in. What's lame about that? I don't know. I love Avengers. I just feel like it's a little bit like, but.

But yeah, for sure. Like, when we come back together, it's like, you know, that's how we started. That's what people want from us, you know? Not all bands have four stars. Yeah, I know. And I think that's why we've had such a complicated career, not that I'm saying that, you know. I said it. You know, I said it.

I feel weird being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a star. Like, a hundred percent. Yeah. But it's true. Like, you guys have. We're all individual artists and we all have a say and we're not just like, you know, no one in the band is is just like, you know, along for the ride. Like none of us are really

that kind of attitude. We all have like fucking like art that we're like bleeding for and things that we want to like, you know, have out there in the world. So it just makes it a, you know, an interesting dynamic that I really like, I can't think of that many other bands really that that have done something like that. And I'm not trying to say like we're like the most unique band ever, but like, we have a very strange and interesting dynamic that I think that's why people have liked us from the beginning, you know? And I think that's why staying together is like such an amazing feat of ours, because like there's, you know, the amount of bands who are like us are so small. And then if you say the ones that have stayed together, it like gets even smaller.

The group is small. Yeah. So it's just. just it's cool to be a part of like a legacy that for us is like not dead. You know what I mean? That's what I love about it is like it's not something that's like that's like a thing that we had. It's like a thing that we still have. Like even, you know, I don't think if you asked anyone 10 years ago when we started if we'd still be here 10 years later like doing stuff together and still with the amount of like love and passion that we had in the beginning. And I think that that's kind of just what is still so awesome about it. What do you think it is that's kept you guys together as friends and as a band?

I think that knowing each other before the band even existed and being friends outside of that is like the biggest thing for us. You know, like, and I think we all have the same attitude of like, you know, we don't want to let anybody else fade. We make sure to like cultivate everybody's like lifestyle. and like uniqueness. And I think that... There's room for everyone.

Yeah. We like intentionally provide the room for each other to sort of like flourish. And to get through like the darker or more uncomfortable or harder moments actually takes real people who like have some stuff. I don't know. There's something about people not quitting on each other or running away from each other because it's uncomfortable or it's hard or they don't know how to say how they really feel. Like we all go through that.

Yeah. And then on the other side of it, if we stay in and long enough, we actually do figure out how to like say how we feel. Yeah. And I think like going through the things that we've been through together and being able to come out on the other side and like have conquered it together. And like, you know, it just it makes us stronger as a group

because we're like, man, if we did that, you know, this shit's easy. You know, figuring out of miscommunication or, you know, whatever. Not that those are common with. us, but like all of a sudden everything else is easy. Yeah. You're all very Australian in some ways where I'm like, well, you're also just kind of easy guys. Yeah. Like you are. I don't know if I'm that easy. Uh, you probably feel like you're not, but that's again, like you, I think you downplay in a very like nice Australian, like humble way, the importance of your band, but also like, I know how that feels. But when I look at it, and I feel like I've been on.

I've had a really good seat for the whole, like, movie. From day one, yeah. Yeah. And you guys have survived, you know, when I first met you guys, I was like, fucking talented, cool kids. Yeah. Like, nice guys. But you were young.

So the first thing you think is like, oh, man, are they going to survive this fucking thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, you just know it as, like, someone who's been around and been through some shit. You're like, some people make it, some people don't. Dude, and that's what's so crazy is when you get to that point where like now I look at people and I'm like, all the best. Like, I hope you get through them. You know what I mean? And like, it's crazy to have come out on the other side where like now I'm someone who can be like,

you can see that. Like, maybe we'll do it, maybe work or whatever. Yeah, I was probably, I was probably around your age or a little older when I first met you guys. That's what you think? You're like, goddamn, talented, nice guys, good music, good songs. It's coming up. And then I got to work with you guys. And I was like, great. Like, you guys had the stuff. Like, to survive. Like, you really did. But also, you didn't know what was coming. And you kind of go like, man, but there's nothing anyone can do. You just have to go right through it. And like, there's a ton of good. I'm not saying it's all bad. I'm saying, like, to survive in this career for a long time, it takes like this grit that's hard to explain.

Totally. Yeah. It's like a perseverance. It sounds like I'm being negative. I'm not. It just takes, it's this weird grit you've got to have. Yeah, totally.

No, I know what you're saying. It's like the... Not a life for everyone. For me, it's like the, it's the eyeballs. And it's like, the good eyeballs are why I do it. And the bad eyeballs are what makes me want to run away

and cry like a little girl. Yeah, me too. Yeah. But then you get on the other side of it. And the fact that you're here sitting in front of me with a family, a life, you made a record. You're like, that's a functioning human being that wasn't completely like just beat to hell by their own success and their own failures and everything in between. It's a spectrum. People only see the successes.

They don't see all the failures of the things we wanted to happen or we want it or we work so hard on. It's a big bag of like of stuff. And I'm not even saying it's good or bad. I'm saying it's like just a lot. A weird thing to go through and the only people that understand have gone through it. And then on the other side, some people are like, peace, I'm out. Yeah. In like good ways where they're like, I'm moving to a farm.

Some people are in bad ways. Like I'm, I'm out. Yeah. And then to see people who like can sustain a great career and then start and then it feels like where you guys are is you're at the beginning of another era of the band and individuals because I'm seeing like the music you're all doing different stuff and it's like nice to see artists be artists yeah I think that's what's so scary for me is like I feel like I have worked for you know 10 years on like this one like this is like my bad analogy about like one game I

spent like 10 years on one game and then like now after doing that for so long it's like i clicked new game level one like when it comes to like me as like trying to like put myself out there as an artist and that to me has been like the scariest part because like you know we're we've been doing this for so long but like we're all still like young yeah we're like we're like the youngest old band ever yeah you know yeah yeah like it's it's it's quite daunting sometimes where i'm like And I don't even know if I can like consider this like a new thing anymore because I've been doing this for so long. But I want like obviously to me this feels so new because it's nothing.

It's like I've never done it before. So I think that's like the been the like mountain for me to climb and especially like when it came to like signing off on music. Like I'm such a over over critical thinker and like overanalyzer on like every, you know, little thing that like. Like, when it came to, you know, some of this stuff, and I was, like, trying to make, you know, especially when I was, like, trying to make music on my own for myself, I'd be, like, you know, scrolling through, like, snare drums.

And I'd be like, do, like, does that represent me? And then I'm like, like, does that represent me? And I'm like, dude, it was just this, like, cycle where, like, every little thing, I was like, what, what represents me? What sounds are me and, you know. Analysis, paralysis. That's a, I like that one. Yeah.

So yeah, I had to like, I get it too. I had to like find people to collaborate with and like help me like, you know, collaborating is all I've done my whole life. So I think when I kind of went into it being like, this is me, I want to like, you know, do it just me. And I was like starting. I was like, no, I don't want to do this. I was like, this is too hard.

And kind of like a strength of mine I like to think is like bringing the best out of, out of other people. And I think in some of this process was like bringing the best out of someone else. that they could bring the best out in me. And it was kind of like this little... You're also fun to work with. I had fun working with it. Okay, I like that.

I felt like we always laughed a lot. I hope so, yeah. I feel like if you're not, then it sucks. Yeah. Like, we always had fun. I hate, like, trying to do stuff where you're like... I think that you're really... So I think hearing that and makes sense to me,

and I'm similar to, I think you're really hard on yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. In every, every aspect. Like, there's not a part of my life that I'm not hard on myself on. Yeah, I bet. But when it came to like releasing something of my own, it was just like, you know, like trying

to sign off on the first song. Like, cool was the first song that I was meant to sign off on. And I was like, man, the irony of the lyric behind, you know, am I cool enough? And I was like, you know, I remember sending notes back and forth. And I was like, man, is that part cool? And then like, literally like, pun unintended. I was like, dude, I'm like, I'm a product of my own, like, design. You know what I mean?

That's what the song's about. So that was like the, the, like, fourth wall that I had to, like, break through on that song was like, find the place in you that, like, feels good about something and then just, like, fucking do it. Yeah, get out of your own way. Yeah. That's a really, that's kind of a breakthrough. Yeah. I think. I think that we share some, I think some qualities. And I've kind of always known this about you in the like best way. Because it's what it takes to do great things is like this ambition and this like need to almost like get it perfect. Which will never do. But it's good to strive for that. But I think you're probably really hard on yourself. And maybe even borderline mean to yourself sometimes. Which I am. Yeah.

And, you know, I'm almost a couple decades ahead of you in this, in this thing. A couple decades, go on. Like 16 years older or something like that's not a couple. It's like more than, more than, you know, on the better side of almost two decades, right? I'd say it's enough time to go like, what have I picked up along the way when I see somebody that's similar to me? We're both artists. We're both singers. We're both right songs.

We both have families. we're similar, I think, in our aspirations are we want to do like cool shit. We want to make good shit. And like build a legacy we're proud of. Not at any cost. I want to know my kids and I want to be married like as long as I can be. You know, like I want to in my mind. Like I want to have a life that I feel like I've invested in the right things.

Yeah. I don't want to be like a tortured artist. No. You know, like I want to experience the good in life. Yeah. And like and appreciate our fans and appreciate what I have. and all the things. But like, really hard on myself.

I'm mean to myself sometimes if I don't look out for it. And then I got to catch myself every time and go like, one, get out of your own way. This is good. You liked it the first time. Yeah. Like stop thinking, move on. And two, if anybody else was talking to you the way you're talking to yourself right now, you would tell them to leave.

Yeah. Maybe not. I feel like I hate confrontations. Right. You would tell them to leave. If they were talking to your kid like that, you told them to leave. So that's all I'm saying is like we have to look out for our like our little injuries because they make us do weird shit. And like if we don't become more and more conscious of our own shit, you know, we injure ourselves.

At some point we just start injuring ourselves. Yeah. I've noticed sometimes like the more I tell myself one thing like, you know, negative things, the more I just see it like start to manifest in real life. It just kind of happens in my, I don't know. like, for whatever reason, I'll just keep, you know, if I'm like just super hard on myself about one thing, it slowly ends up being a thing. Yeah, we find evidence and proof of our beliefs. Yeah. So if I go into the world believing anything, I'm going to find proof. Yeah. If I go into the world thinking, like, people don't like me. Yeah. And I'll find proof.

Like plenty of people. Like, wait, that guy. Yeah. There's a lot of takers on both. If I go to go, I make friends everywhere I go. Yeah. I do kind of make friends everywhere I go. Yeah. Those are my extremes. Yeah. I'm either making friends everywhere I go or I'm like, nobody likes me, which is terrible, but it's true. It's funny because, like, I think a lot of us musicians are like this. I think we're, like, injured from something. Yeah.

You know, we were little or wherever. Yeah. That's real. At some point, we got to work on it and, like, figure it out and, like, and then we kind of get, we injure ourselves a little bit when, you know, something too good happens for us. You know, we get this success or we meet this nice person who loves us. Yeah. We start fucking with it because we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's too good for me. The good things don't happen to me. Shitty old me. You're like, no, actually, like, let's track back

across the life. Things have been going pretty good now for a long time. Yeah. But that's kind of like the tortured artist because we generally, I think, started doing this out of pain. Most of us all come from some kind of pain. Yeah. And then it's hard to shake that sometimes. But the kids are really good for that. They're like a shock. Yeah.

To the system. Oh, yeah. It's like a reset. It's like a, it's like the coldest ice bath. Yeah. You can get in and it just like, no,

I can't. Oh, yeah, they hurt. Are you in L.A.? I actually, I moved to Atlanta, but we're moving back.

Okay. In like a month because we moved to the middle of the country and got a little board? Yeah. Yeah. Should you come back to L.A.? Yeah. That's fun.

Yeah. I was like, yeah, I thought you were maybe in Nashville. Yeah, yeah. We were going to go, every time we thought about moving to Nashville, a tornado hit. Ooh. So I think that there's, there's a high power telling me, like. L.A. Maybe stay away from the, yeah.

Do you miss Australia? I miss my parents, but. Yeah. I miss parents and, like, what I knew as a kid, but now I'm just so, I'm just so here now. Yeah. You got a family. Yeah, dude. Like, wherever she is, like, wherever my daughter is.

Doesn't matter. That's where I'm... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. Yeah. And every time I think about going back to Maryland, I'm always like, eh.

We go back in the summer sometimes. It's great. But like... Home just became way less physical for me. It's not physical at all. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even care where we live as long as they're happy.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just, it just became like a more of like a feeling than a place. And how do you feel with the record? Do you feel relieved? No. Are you nervous? Yes.

Okay. What are you the most nervous about? All of it. All of it. You couldn't even tell me. Like the list would be too long. Yeah, no. It's a general anxiety.

I don't know, like, yeah, because, like, I don't want to, like, deter people from listening to it because of my anxiety about it. But, like, I mean, it's scary. Like, I hope I made something cool. Oh, you did make something cool. I like it. I made a song called Cool. I like it, though. I think it's great.

Yeah. Thanks. I think you should be really proud of it. Yeah. And I am. I am. I am for sure. Yeah.

I'm proud of like myself for like doing, doing stuff and not letting myself get stuck. Yeah. In my own way. Like I'm really proud of myself for that. What would your like idea of success for this record be? What would you be happy with? I think it's, it's just, I think it's internal for me. I think it's like if I can, if I can look at the thing I made and like look at the like the way

that I represented it and went about making this and be proud of it. I think that's sort of what I'm looking for at this point. I like really consider and I make it a point to say this and maybe I've said this to you before and maybe I haven't, but I've definitely said it to maybe I said it to Ashton because he was here like probably a year and a half ago in the show and I maybe have said it to Luke before but I consider. Not to Callum. You haven't said it to Callum. I didn't say it to Callum because he wouldn't talk to me. Okay. That's fair. He wouldn't say it work. He's too. He's still angry at me. No, I can't find him. But I said the experience we got to have over the years working with you guys was a very rich part of our legacy. Yeah, that's awesome.

We consider it to be something that we cherish. Yeah. Like, it's a proud moment in our legacy. That's amazing. And so, like, to be connected to your band, the story. of Good Charlotte is all these things. And like five seconds of summer is a part of that. We kind of come into that story at some point. For us, it's a proud moment for us. Like we're very proud of it. We're very proud of you guys. We're very proud to know you guys. We're very proud to be like connected to you guys musically. And like we're always watching you guys like rooting for you and go like, what are they doing next? So if it's a solo project or what, you know, a family. Yeah. Dude, I think there's like a few moments and I mean there's like two of the biggest moments of our life would I think would have been she's

kind of hot and amnesia you know those are up there of moments that were like very pivotal for us that like you know obviously wouldn't happen without you guys so I think but vice versa like you guys shared your success with us you know what I mean and you didn't yeah I don't know I don't know if we did as much as it was you for us you know what I mean like I think it's mutual I think it I think it actually it's a little bit lopsided well I think you gave us more. No, I think it was like a mutual, like, we both wanted to be there. Yeah. We didn't want to like work with you guys and just shit out a song. Right. Yeah. Like we wanted to make something that felt special. We were, yeah, there was a relationship.

We were like. And I felt like in the process over the years of working with you guys, like, when we were all in the room, we all cared. Yeah. Like we were trying really hard. I always felt that about you guys to like make something. I always felt that it was never just like popping in, trying this and then dipping out. It always felt like you, I mean, were invested in us and you wanted to see us succeed

and have these, like, moments for us. It was important to us. Yeah. You guys invited us into a special space that, like, some people don't take it as, like, it's sacred to us.

Like, a band is sacred. Yeah. Like, you have, like, backstage, we have our shit and we work it out, but like, it's sacred ground.

Yeah. Nobody else can come in here and, like, work, like, if we're working some shit out or, Billy's mad at me or he's this or he feels like this. Like we're back here and this is sacred.

And we always work it out. And we go on stage and we all play our roles. We play our positions. And backstage, we come back and we're like a family. We're working shit out. And sometimes families are. Disfunctional. Uncomfortable and dysfunctional.

And sometimes it's amazing. Yeah. And all my best memories and worst are with my band. They're my family. For sure. The only familial thing I have in my life like really. Yeah. Like deeply rooted familial thing is these guys.

Yeah. We started in high school and like, and now we're, it's crazy. So we're all in our 40s and we all have kids. Yeah. And we see each other. Thought out as like a bunch of degenerates.

Kids. And then suddenly those are the guys that you have the best memories with in your whole life. Yeah. And the worst. Like there was, there were whole eras of like, of dysfunction. Yeah.

Like, there was times where we didn't speak. There was times where we didn't know how to express like how we were feeling. We stayed together. And we got through it. And on the other side of it, like, we love each other. Because that's what family is. Yeah, totally.

And we did the Madden Brothers record. And we did, like, we do, you know, me and Ben, we're all over the place. So, like, we have all of these moments. So to come into another band and be in the, in the, like, the bubble with you guys, we always took it really seriously. Yeah. And like, and we've always, like, believed in you guys as a band. You're a great band.

Yeah. You know, so you're never going to not be creating something. Yeah. And whether it's with each other or separate, you've got to like know that you have to do it. Yeah. Like you had to make this record. You would not have been happy if you didn't make this record. For sure.

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Yeah, and I think that's like what is like we were talking earlier about like growth is like when you learn that

and you've realized that like allowing that freedom creates something. better for for everybody yeah and that's when when you know you you want to you know I want to watch everyone succeed I want to watch everyone do you know what they whatever they want to do at all times like I've I've supported the shit out of you know Ash and and Luke's stuff like I loved it and

was always along for it like and I you know I'd like I was like a fan and I'd like go and like watch you know stuff of it and like the live performances and stuff you know because I just think that's how I want to support, you know? And it's just like rooting for your best friend. And, you know, it does confuse me a bit that there are some bands that like don't want, want to see that for their bands, bandmates and stuff. That's all just dysfunction. Yeah.

It's all just like, it's like fear and dysfunction and like all of us have insecurities about something. Yeah. And like with bands, sometimes we acted out on each other. in moments. Yeah. And like when we get past it and we get to healthy places where like actually we all started together and this was a really good thing.

Like we were excited. And like we loved being together. Especially like in those early days where we were getting our first show or the first tour where someone was like, we're taking you on tour. Whatever. Like excitement. Yeah. And I think like we also then have to all grow up together and become like men and figure life

out while we're doing this. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. But I do think that, like, what I know about you guys is your good people. Yeah. And I know you love each other. And I know that, like, you want each other to be happy.

And so anything that's ever gotten the way of that has always probably just been, like, this temporary dysfunction. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like that's the same with us. Yeah. Like, anything that ever got in the way was a temporary, like, dysfunctional piece we had to figure out. Yeah.

However long it took us was more like us all trying. and like that's the greatest story about the band is like that we did try and we got overcome when you overcome it yeah yeah yeah i think it's a real success because i think you're going to make a lot of me i i think you're going to do another record and you're going to do you're going to fuck around and like you're never going to stop like wanting to make music and express yourself and you may even go back to a five-sus record and be able to do that a little different from this experience, but you may go over here

because you were friends with that guy and you were in that studio. Yeah, yeah. And you fuck around. Yeah, I think that's, that is the beauty of like exploring as an individual and then being able to like create as a, as this, you know,

part of a group. My only advice would be to be open to the like winding road of it. Because this. Definitely not a straight line. Yeah. Yeah, this record might actually be about the next one. Or this might be about that. You never know where the journey's taking you and what moments the world will recognize

or not, but like hang in for the artist development part of it where you're like just doing what you think is cool, doing what you like, expressing yourself. And like you're going to have moments on this record that feel like wins and you're going to have things that feel like losses. Yeah. That's just the journey. Yeah, for sure. I feel like I'm going to try and embrace all of it.

Yeah. You know, and like really have that as something that I don't necessarily, you know, get to experience within the band in terms of like developing. You know, it's like it's different in the band because we kind of like create a thing together. And you like, you know, it's like you birth this thing together.

And then you equally, you know, some albums, it's different people. and, you know, it ebbs and flows, but, like, I really want to try and embrace this, like, this is something that I created and, like, some parts of it are very imperfect. Some things are great. Some things maybe suck a little. And I want to try and, like, be here for all of it and stop trying to, like, shy away from some of that. Or let it kind of, you know, defeat me or whatever.

Yeah. It's just like putting yourself out there. Yeah. Just continuing to. Yeah. Because you're really talented. musician and you're a good songwriter and so i just think it's exciting to me to see people make shit and just make shit and you know what i mean like and just put it out there yeah you know a lot of

people are scared to let's think it makes you more the more a complete artist every time you do it yeah you i mean every time you release anything or not even just release every time you create something you learn like over and over again you know and i think that's like like that's like like the crazy part about what we do in terms of like being a creative for a living is like there's no linear like you don't get better because it's all subjective yeah so you just are constantly like trying to learn and like understand you know for me i had to you know understand that like to make better stuff it was never technical and to me i i've i felt for a long time that like to create something good, it had to like technically be good and it had to come from a

place of like, you know, all the right, you know, sounds and the right, you know, words. And like, you know, I was just so hypercritical on all of these things until I had this realization of like, man, this is all subjective. And the only thing that like, the reason why you listen to music, for me anyway is like I want to hear the person like who's who's making the thing and like how in what way does it represent them and I think that none of that you know actually this is a bit of a full circle moment is because the thing that I like about my favorite artist is like the humanness and that's something that C3PO your robot who's going to greet me is never going to have I mean maybe they might program him pretty good but I don't think his music is going to be very good. And the music is not going to be good. In a hundred years, they flashback to this moment in black and white and he's, you know, multi-platinum diamond selling artist.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, anyway, just finding the like humanness and the imperfection, I think was something that like it really, really helped me embrace the like disarrayed, you know, human that I am and like try to find the creativity in, in, in, that. What gives you freedom? Yeah, I think I was just like, man, I was like, making this album better isn't going to be having a better synth sound. That's not, that's, you know, whatever. That's not what people want. It's just like, how does it make it feel? What is that, what does that tell

them about me? Making this record, I think, is a important part of your artistic journey and, like, what you do in the future, this is critical. Yeah. I'm happy you made it. Yeah. I'm happy you came and talked about it. Thanks man. I'm this was really fun. Congrats on the baby. Thanks. You're going to be a teenager before you know it. Yeah. Congrats on the uh the robot. Not yet but soon. So you'll be the first there's no down payment. You'll be the first picture. I'll send you the picture. Yeah. As soon as I get that thing. Michael, thanks dude. Thanks, man. Love you. Thanks for having me. Love you too. Thank you for listening to artist friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, can also follow us on

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