Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Morgan Lander of Kittie

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Morgan Lander of Kittie. Kittie formed in London, Ontario during the late ’90s when the Lander sisters — Morgan and Mercedes �� were teenagers. Near the turn of the millennium, the band unleashed their debut album, Spit, which explored hate, ignorance, and misogyny — and grew into their biggest-selling album. Earlier this year, Kittie made an explosive comeback with Fire, their first new album in 13 years, that reconciled with their nü-metal beginnings and sharpened their rage. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to singer-songwriter, lead guitarist, lead singer, and frontwoman of the band Kitty. Morgan Lander. Let's go. I don't want to bed times. I don't want to have bad. Kitty's back. Big statement. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big deal. It is. I mean, I guess it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I mean, we're really, excited. Things, things, things are happening. They're happening organically and it feels a little weird, but I'm okay with it. Why does it feel weird? Well, I mean, we took such a long break. Yeah. It's a long time to be away, a long time to be like, uh, normal. Yeah. You know, like completely,

I mean, still making music and still working with musicians and things like that, but not actually being like a working musician. Out there on the grind, doing that thing. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. because I feel like similar. Yeah. I feel like we, I think it was like, uh, 2014 or something. So it was like 10 years ago.

Yeah. We were like, done. Yeah. Not as a band. We all love each other. But like I think you go out there on that grind and it's not, there's so much good things about it. There's so much experience you have.

You could call bad. You could call all. I mean, it's just a life. experience. But if you, if you beat the horse, I feel like we were just beating the horse towards the end there of that cycle of like 12 years or whatever, however long we were just grinding. I felt like we had just whittled our souls down a little bit without knowing it. Yeah, I can agree with that. I think that's sort of where we were at as well. Like the last few years that we were touring, you know, things kind of kept getting more and more diminished.

You know, we had switched labels a few years prior. And, you know, we put out what I think are two of some of our best albums. But, you know, we were touring in a van. Which is hard. Yeah, the guarantees were getting smaller and smaller. The crowds were getting smaller and smaller. And, you know, you know that that can also weigh heavily on your psyche. Yeah.

You know, having to grind it out like that night after night and feeling like you, have to do it rather than like you want to do it. Yeah. And similar situation for us as well. Like we are all great friends. We were still at that time. There was no like interpersonal drama or anything. It was just a case of like just being tired and feeling.

Soul tired. Yeah, the weight of almost like defeat. Just, you know, from putting in so much and like sort of receiving so little. And for us it wasn't really like a. conscious thing. It just like kind of just drifted, you know, just kind of fell through our fingers. Like we didn't sit down one day and we're like, uh, you know, let's break up the band or like there was no announcement or anything.

It was just kind of like, you know, we all just started to do our own things and find our own way. And it sort of just naturally kind of drifted. That sounds right. Yeah. The thing that I think about when you say, let's say the albums don't perform maybe like we hope they would. The shows aren't selling like the other ones were.

To us, we take that as we're failing. Yeah. No one is there actually telling us the reality of the landscape we're trying to build in. Right, of course. Is that in the time, because I'm guessing this is around 2011 for you, 2012. So that's when streaming switched over. Yeah. We all felt it.

It was the same time for us. There was a hole. Everything dropped off a cliff. And suddenly we kind of almost like woke up in a new world where bands don't actually have. It was like they were important for a decade. There was a real vibrant place to go and be a band. And then suddenly it was like from 2010 or 11 to 2015, there was just like, this void where no one did well, actually.

Very few did well. It was a weird transition period. It was weird. And no one really, you heard people say like, it's over, it's done. That was the experience we had too. It was a weird time. It was like, I love my band. And it's not that I need everyone to love it, but it's not over.

But I feel like I internalized it as a failure versus a reality. of the time. Yeah. And now we come to this era, which is almost 10, 11, 12 years later, but really a decade later, it feels like there's this resurgence of rock music and as far as the interest of like the most important fan to me is the new music fan. Someone discovering music and going, what do I like, who am I? What kinds of things do I like?

Now it's a different day. Kids and fans and all music fans coming into music. There's no lines. There's no real genres. It's just like, I like what I like. Most people, some people would call themselves rock fans. Maybe some people would say they're hip-hop fans. But most people will scroll through Instagram and listen to any song. And if we think it's good. If there's a cool dance to it. We'll bop our head to it and we'll be like, oh, that's cool. So I don't think we were equipped or experienced enough to understand the global change that was happening and see it for what it was. Yeah, for sure. Versus we internalize it as artists and we go like, I failed. It was all for nothing.

Yeah. Well, it certainly feels like a failure, you know, when you're, you're, you know, holding a mirror up to yourself. things like, you know, did I, you know, what about what I have been doing, the music that we've been making, you know, the places that we've been playing is, is causing this to happen. And it's not, you're right. I've never thought of that before. It actually wasn't you. Yeah, it was a transition period just in the industry.

Oh my God. I feel like I'm in therapy right now. This is so amazing. Thank you. But this is my therapy. Yeah, it is. But no, that's important if you don't think about it. Yeah.

It's not that everyone lost interest. it's that the distribution system changed almost overnight. What you're telling me is so funny because so many bands from, you know, the late 90s to 2012 had the same experience. And I don't think any of us processed like what was happening at the time. Right. Yeah. And that is really interesting.

Like I, I can't say that I've ever had a conversation with someone on that level to, like, explore that and kind of discover that, but like I can only speak for my own personal journey, right? And, you know, it was like we came off the road in 2012 and that was it. We just sort of drifted apart. And yeah, I guess there was a lot of transition happening, you know, personally. And for me, having a normalcy, trying it out, you know? So like, you know, getting a real job. Like I came, I didn't even graduate high school, you know. We left school to start touring with Kitty.

And so I came home with like no real, like real world experience. And for me, that has been a journey as well, sort of discovering who I am outside of the band. That was my therapy, I guess. and just sort of like learning that, you know, the things that I do outside of music also have value that, like, I know I'm an intelligent person and my working on relationships as well is something that I think is a very difficult thing for people in working bands to do. Like when you're out on the road all the time, you know, having, yeah, relationships are hard in general and then having to sort of deal with that being away all the time and all the things that kind of come with that. So, you know, working on relationships also was a big part of that, that self-discovery thing. And I really am grateful for that time. And like, you know, back, looking back in 2012, like, in that moment, I was thinking like,

well, this is like the end. What am I going to do, right? But it's not the end. And every day you put your foot forward in front of the other and you figure it the fuck out. And sometimes it's trial and error. but I'm grateful for that experience, you know, having... It's dope. Yeah, it is, right?

Like, just figuring out, like, what life is really all about. It's not about, you know, what people are saying or, you know, fans and the adulation and all that stuff. It's just like, like, life is just like being with the people that you love. Life is just, like, eating chips and farting on the couch, you know what I mean? Like, that's literally it. And sometimes it's not as exciting as what, you know, people in bands and musicians sort of make it out to be, you know, or the movies sort of presented as, you know, we sell a fantasy. We do, yeah, absolutely.

It's wonderful to think about a fantasy. I'd love to just live in a fantasy. That'd be great. But then no one would like me and I wouldn't have any real relationships and I wouldn't have a life I'd get. up and live inside of every day where I can actually smell or taste or see or feel anything. And that is in my mind a terrible way to live. And some people live that way. I've experienced some people I've come across that had massive amounts of success,

but live in a complete fantasy. Yeah, they're trapped in that illusion that has been built by the music industry. And that's sort of where they live. That's not real. It's not, and it's dangerous, and I think it's sad. I have a refusal to judge anyone, so I don't make a final judgment on the people that I come in contact like that, but I do form an opinion, I think, where I see something and I go, I think you're really out of touch with real life, and there's something about real life, which is why I tell people that are listening or people that you come in contact with that are fans of your big.

band or of music and they think the fantasy is real. I try to tell them it's not. And I try to tell them how special their life is. And just as exciting it can be to have a experience that you might write off is not important because it's you. So I think a lot of us do that. Yeah. It's not important because it's me. A night with really good friends or a good dinner somewhere that you really wanted to eat or a trip to somewhere that you really wanted to go should feel exciting and should feel worthwhile. But it is this fantasy that we get sold because there's something exciting about that. It's like Disneyland.

I want to go to Disneyland. But if you were at Disneyland for a week, you'd want to leave. Oh, you'd be so fucking tired. Oh, my God. You'd be like, okay. Somewhere in the middle, we can take the experience we had in our younger, more formative artistic years and pick out the things that we actually do find value in and that we appreciate appreciate. Because I have a theory that we're the best version of us as a band than we've ever been.

We're better live. We're better at everything because of our age. Yeah, I can agree with that. I think I know you as well started off very young, had fame very early on as young people. And like, your brain isn't even formed yet. You know what I mean? It froze me at a certain age and I was really immature until probably 30. I was probably like operating on a very, limited, a very limited development. It does that to you. If you, whether you think of 21 or something, you get everything. And you're also coming in injured. You're coming in as an injured kind of person. Yeah. Well, not even as a whole person, you know, like for us, we were 15, 16, 17 years old. You know, when, when spit first came out and everything just went bananas. And yeah, like my sister,

Mercedes, was in her first year of high school. It's crazy. When it was, like, all right, time to, time to test out if this is the dream or not, you know? I'm like, I mean, I'm really grateful that my parents even allowed us to do that. Yeah, Billy was, uh, left on the road, didn't go to his senior year of high school. He was just on the road with us. And it was like, I think about that's crazy for him. Like, how did you, I was out of high school. I was a year or two out of high school. But it was crazy. It was, it was, you just, how did we make it? I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm baffled every day at the, the resilience,

I think, that some, some of us have. Like, I know the industry is so tough. It's, there's a lot of predators out there. There's a lot of creepy people.

There's a lot of people that, there's a lot of exploitation. And being as young as, you know, we were experiencing things when you were young as well. Like, it's, it's a wonder that we have come through,

you know, all of that. and been able to sort of be better people, you know, like I really am grateful for all the life experiences I've had, like the good or the bad. I certainly can look back and take the good from those and see the worth in some of the mistakes and everything like that. Like being able to reflect back on my life in that way, I think, has allowed me to see everything a little clear and helped me to be the best version of myself. And then, of course, that extends, you know, to the band as well.

Like you were saying, like we're the best version of who we've ever been. And I couldn't agree more. I think that, like, that's where we're at right now. And being able to have this second chance, it's great because, like, we get to have that chance, almost a do-over. Yeah, it is.

But- it is a do-over. Yeah, but with the best version of who you could be. And with all that experience. I don't know what experiences have the biggest impact on you. good and bad, but to make sense of them is important. You know, all the bad experiences you could have had that you may not even have accounted for at the time when you guys were like, okay, I'm spent. I'm going to go home.

I feel that implicitly. I want to know what it feels like to live a regular life. And I want to be a regular person and I want to have a relationship with my life. I want to have, I want to be in a community. I want to go to the coffee shop. take my kids to school. And now I have teenagers, but I feel extremely grateful that I got to do that. And then I put that first.

And then I also, over that period of time, got to make sense of the injuries I got when I went out into the world as a not fully formed young person and then go through the craziness of a career in its first stage, which is probably different but similar to yours. at the point where I was like, I feel spent. I just want to like, I met this nice girl. I want to settle down and I want to see what that feels like. That's number one. I've said this a million times and it's still number one. I still feel like it's nice to have stuff. The music is not as important as.

Yeah. It's just nice. Gives me a lot of freedom. Yeah. I feel unchained to any success. Yeah. And I can also start to unpack all the bad things that happen like you're talking about. Yeah, absolutely.

We do what we want, when we want. That's it. Yeah, taking your power back. And being able to be afforded the opportunity to have the freedom to be able to, like, choose as well and to say no to things, which, you know, when, you know, there's been periods in our career as well, where it's like, you feel like you can't say no because it's like, well, you know, the people, the man is telling you, you need to. it, you know. You're lucky. Yeah, exactly. You know, this will be really good for you. You should do it.

Someone else will do it if you don't. Yeah, exactly. Now I'm like, okay, let them. Yeah, absolutely. Great. Yeah, but that is taking back your power. You know, it's so wonderful to be in that place now, to be able to, and I know that that's something that not everyone gets. Yeah. And I'm very aware of that, and I'm grateful for the place that we're at now, but just being able to say no to something or be strategic. and cautious about the choices that we're making. And then that way it's like when you make that choice, then you're all fucking in, right? Like, full on.

You don't have to be like, ugh, not another tour, you know, where you're getting this much money or, you know, you got to do this. It's like we take that power back and you have the choice to say yes or no. Yeah. How quick do you get to those decisions now? Oh, well, Kitty is definitely a democracy. So we got to, you know, get in the group chat and be.

talking about everything. We're always weighing the pros and cons. You know, the interesting thing about Kitty as well is that, like, we do have a hand in everything. Like, at present, we don't have a manager. You know, we fell back into doing all of these things, you know, sort of one thing at a time, just like snowballed into this, snowballed into a deal, snowballed into a new album. And we are still, like, I'm the one that's doing the emailing. And, you know, we're all sort of taking on certain managerial aspects of things. So we are, we're deep in the shit. Um, but yeah, yeah, but we are all discussing everything together. And sometimes we don't all agree, but it's like there's four of us. We take a vote. We weigh the pros and cons. Um, you know, everybody sort of has their own vision and

opinion. But, you know, ultimately, uh, having those kinds of conversations are, it's, it's important. You know, it helps to sort of streamline, you know, how, how, uh, how, the where you want to go, the direction you want to go in, who you want to be, how you want to present yourself, all those things. So we're, you know, we're pretty democratic. We're all just, you know, thrown in our opinions and seeing what sticks. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, I love that. I mean, you are your best manager until you need a partner, right? And you know when that is. And so you have the experience to know as you take. kiddie out into the world, you already done it all. You already know, you already know how to figure

out how to outsource that, because that's what everyone else is doing anyways and how to do that. You know what the meat of every conversation is. You know what the important points of making the album or doing this or doing that. You already have the experience. You don't need to be told things that you feel. You'll likely end up finding a partner that you feel, you feel mutual, respect. And that's what I need. I can't be managed. I'm unmanageable. Yeah. Well, it's sometimes how I feel as well. And that's okay. I mean, like, we're very, we're very driven. We understand, like you said, like, you can be your own best manager because you know what you're all about better than anybody, you know? Like, I've lived and breathed inside Kitty for two-thirds of my life. You know what I mean?

It came from your mind from the beginning. And you likely had a better instinct from the beginning. It's good partnership that allows us to sit at the table with someone that we can instinctively feel that they're not placating us, that they're just having an exchange of information coming from their best thought on something. And it's a think tank. Yeah, for sure. And in the best version of that is a bunch of people who actually are open and honest and conscientious with one another. And then we come to a decision that we all, like you said, it's a demographic. kind of system where it's not just, well, I'm the artist and fuck that. But also, it's not, I'm the manager and I was with this person and that person and that person. So I know what's best.

No, it's something in the middle. I'm probably, my instincts are probably going to be better on the manager than the art. Their instinct might be better on this, this or that. What I want is a partner who's going to just spell it out for me. If we do a deal, I want to, I want to think through the deal. I want a beginning, middle and end. In success, it looks like this. In failure, it looks like this. And like, let's figure out so that we've thought all the way through and we make a deal that's long-term thinking, success thinking, but also there's a fairness

to it. And with good partners who believe in us, I'm not the guy also that's like, fuck the music industry at all. A great label partner is a great partner. Yeah, absolutely. And a great manager is a great manager. But I just want artists to sit at the table and be open to the idea that, like, they should trust their instincts and they should find partners that they feel like they have a seat at the table and they're not just being kind of managed. Yeah, absolutely. I think artists should be the ones driving the boat for sure.

We're definitely sort of getting to that point, I think. As a band, we definitely are, like, right now flying by the seat of our pants, kind of like we, you know, but we have ambition, right? We have, there's more to this than just like put out music. And I think we are sort of getting to a point now where we're like, okay, we need to, we need to maybe take that on and have somebody that can sort of strategize and move things to the next level, which is something that we've, like, we've never had before. Right. Ever. Like my dad managed the band up until he passed in 2008 and we tried on a couple managers. You said he passed away in 2008? I'm sorry.

That's okay. Yeah, so like it was a very tight-knit family kind of thing going on. You know, my parents were very heavily involved, especially because we were so young. And then we tried on a couple managers after and it just was never, it just, it's just never the same, you know, especially when you, when you have that family, you know, who, like, who else can you trust, right? You know, like that deeply. Yeah. Not that it was like, oh, you know, you could never replace him because like a good manager is a good manager. but there was that extra connection there.

No one's going to care like that. Yeah, exactly. And especially for us as young as we were, sort of, you know, heading, head first into the industry that young, you know, they were, my dad was there to protect us. Yeah. He made sure that, you know, all the seedy characters of the industry that, you know, lurking in the shadows were definitely sort of kept at bay and he vanquished those for us.

Good dad. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, but still cool enough to be like, all right, you guys go on. you know, drink with Pantera or whatever, have your fun. You know what I mean? He got it. Yeah. So, like, we were still able to enjoy what it was to be, you know, a touring band to a certain

extent, you know, like a lot of people that we were, you know, playing with and touring with, like twice as old and twice as drunk, you know, like wild, wild stuff. Yeah. And metal is such a, it's a tough, it's a tough genre. It's a really, there's a lot of chaos. There's a lot of unresolved. childhood issues that get acted out in adulthood. There's stuff you have no idea of when you're a kid.

And then you become an adult and you're like, oh, all those kids just have tons of shit to work out. Yeah. The therapy aspect of metal bands is they all need therapy. Yeah. And they use music as therapy, which is great. Yeah. But I am a big pusher of like, yo, go unpack your big bag of issues.

It's not going to hurt your music. Yeah. It's actually going to make it better. But metal's tough. It's tough genre to come out, especially at the time, because now, like I said, the genres are less important. But at the time you guys came out, everything was genre-fied. Oh, yeah.

It was very genre-fied. And we were completely, like, pigeonholed and put in a box right away. And we definitely got the shit kicked out of us, you know? The industry and journalists, the angles that people were sort of, like, playing for being 16-year-old girls in a man's world. big scary man's world, you know. And yeah, like, there's still, there's still a lot of that going on. And they're like, you know.

What's that due to a kid's psyche when they put a record out and these adults are picking it apart and bringing up things you probably never even thought of and criticizing you in ways you've never been criticized? Yeah. It's got to do something to your psyche. Absolutely. It was really hard. And I look back now and I, I've looked back now.

I still wonder how, like, we even survived and, like, came out on the other side, like, kind of normal. Especially because I feel like, I mean, the internet now, it's just, like, so ingrained in our society. But back then it was like, it was new. Yeah, it was new. It was like a message board. It was the wild west. And, yes, the message board was where, you know, people would be saying horrible things or, you know, articles and, like, it even went so far as, like, death threats and all kinds of stuff. And it's like, for what?

For just being a woman and occupying space that like people, you know, feel like it's reserved for men or whatever, you know? Like, it definitely did a number on all of us. And, you know, I've learned just don't read the comments. But when you're like 16 years old and you're like, someone is accusing you of not writing your own songs and not playing, like, that's so hard. Like, we had to, we'd overcome so much already. just being there, just being defiant enough to take up that space. And then for, you know, when things start to get bigger and you get a little bit of the spotlight, and then they're still calling you a fraud, like that's something that I think I've certainly

carried it all throughout my life as well. I don't know if it's helped to sort of make me more humble, but I certainly downplay a lot of the things that we've accomplished. I have a hard time wrapping my head around around that. The accomplishments you've had, you have a hard time holding them? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's weird. Like, now that I'm older and I can sort of reflect back and see those sorts of things,

like, oh, you know, it's about time that people really recognize maybe the value of what we were doing that long ago. But at the same time, I'm also kind of still like, oh, like, you know, we're putting it a new I'm like, I hope people still, like, think we're cool. Like, I hope they like us still. Are we still relevant and all that stuff? You know, all these, all the weird artist questions, you know? That's crazy because from my perspective, you were always cool.

Well, thanks. You were always relevant. It always mattered. And the only reason you're feeling the celebration of your return is because you returned. Yeah. Had you returned any other time, you'd have felt it as well. Yeah, but I mean, that could be true. So when I see you guys moving through the world, I go, they've always been cool.

That's just kind of how I see the band. It's always been cool. It's badass. I mean, it's hard to be all girls in a band and that genre at the time. Yeah. It's legendary shit. Yeah. Thank you.

I mean, I feel like, yeah, there's a part of me that has always, you know, sort of acknowledged and understood that. but I feel like now it's different because it's taken the industry and the world at large, like the time to sort of catch up to that idea as well. That's just probably with, you know, with time and things changing, spaces being occupied by a more variety of people. I've always known that what we were doing was magic and special, you know what I mean? And like you were saying, like we couldn't have done the things that we did, like when we were 15, 16 years old.

Like, if there wasn't something inherently in us that was like that magic, you know, it, there was a, you know, a little bit of like right place, right time and stuff for us as well. But yeah, I've always known that there was some sort of thread of importance and in the things that we had done. But only now am I really feeling the impact of like of those things that we did. You know, all the bullshit that we went through, everything, what we, you know, what we stood for, all those things. But now, in coming back, you know, hearing things like legendary, like, that just doesn't compute. Yeah. It's so wild to me. Like, I'm certainly here for it, but it's just such an interesting thing to watch in real time, like, the world, like, catch up with those concepts.

You know, it's cool. It's funny when our life and our art is Doritos to everyone else. Yeah. Right? It's like which chips are going to, am I going to eat today? Right? Like knowing it's a fuck, I'll throw that bag of chips away. Yeah. And that's the hard part of being an artist is you can make something that's so disposable to everyone else. It's so I could even just read what everyone else has decided this is and throw it away before I even listen to it. Because that's the nature of popular culture. Yeah, it's a fickle industry. but there is something about legacy. There's something about art that can live forever. Yeah. There is something really beautiful about that.

Like for me, I am a person who's chosen to not have children. I'm not going to be a mother. But there's some comfort that I find in the fact that like the music that I made will live on forever. You know, like that's the legacy that I put forth to the world. And what's your thought and feeling around having kids? I don't know. I've just never, I've never just seen myself as being a mother. Like, as I get older, I think about like, oh, well, like, what the fuck am I going to do?

Who's going to fucking take care of me when I'm like 80 years old, you know, whatever? But at the same time, I'm like, you know, you have to live your life authentically. It's not ever something that I've thought that I would be good at or desired to do. But I kind of surround myself with the golden girls, you know. I have a lot of friends that are also, you know, that don't have children. And we're probably just going to be the golden girls and grow old together. And that's cool. That's totally cool. So I'm Anna Mena.

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is sold as like suddenly you're like a holy person or you're like It completes your life or whatever, yeah. It is absolutely

incredibly special when you have a family with the right person. Yes. I think that's, actually and then you both want it yeah i don't think it's the only way to build a happy life because i do feel like it gets sold as like you have to do this yeah well yeah i mean especially like uh as a woman you know you hear like constantly like that's you know that's your greatest uh joy in life your

greatest purpose in life is to, you know, and then it becomes, you know, there's all the politics that are involved in the politicization of it and all those things as well. And yeah, like, I think, you know, you're just like, that's not me. Yeah, bodily autonomy is what I'm all about, man. And I have the utmost respect for people that are parents, that want to be parents, like Ivy, our base player, has two kids, two young children under the age of five. I can't imagine the stress that She's, you know, going through. She's at the trenches. Yes, parenting at, like, probably what is, like, the worst time as, like, a child,

like, you know, two, three, four years old. And then also navigating, you know, doing all this stuff with the band, trying to parent and also, you know, put yourself out there with the music side of things. Like, I have the utmost respect for her for, you know, being able to juggle all of the things. It's a lot of work. There's no way you get out of parenting. without having to make repairs resolve something. And there's no perfect parents out there.

There just isn't. Yeah, of course. And that's what I think. That's what I think. And so I'm like absolutely on board with the idea that when I'm older, I'm going to have to sit down with my kids and work out some shit that I did or said or whatever that made them feel a certain way. Or like, I want them to not think I'm God or that everything I think is right.

I try to make a space like that where I'm like, look, I don't know if I'm right. I've never done this before. But I'm trying. That being said, I actually hear you and it makes sense to me. I'm like, oh, there's a person who actually knows what they want in life and they're doing it. Yeah. That's cool.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's just a decision that I've made. And like my partner has been with Ben for like 12 years now and he's of the same mindset. And so, yeah. And so it's like, it's just an easy. decision to make, you know? And I don't know. Like I have been in relationships in the past where, you know, you feel that kind of like

pressure because you're like, well, you know that that person wants to have kids and wants to have a family, wants to be dad. And it's like, but I'm not sure that that's what I want. And like to me that the idea of sort of like relenting to someone, you know, if it's not really what you want to do, like is if you agree, like, is that like a good compromise or are you compromising your own ideals. You know, there's a lot of strange things kind of wrapped up in that, that, you know, and sometimes then maybe people are having kids for the wrong reason.

It's like, you're bringing a life into this world, you know, it's not going to, like, save your marriage or make you happier. You know what I mean? It's not a fix-all, and I- No, it will expose all of that. Yeah. 100%. Just that's what I think about success.

Yeah. It will expose all of it. Yeah. You know, I agree with that. And I've seen it firsthand. I'm sure you have as well, you know, like any of the hurt, any of the baggage that you have that you carry already when you get into the music industry and, you know, people are telling you how great you are and like lots of drugs and all kinds of weird situations and everything. It's like it's going to peel back all of that. Drugs don't help it.

Yeah, exactly. And you're whatever, it's going to amplify whatever, you know, whatever baggage you have. and it turns into a train wreck. That's why I learned we have these pillars or categories in our life, verticals in our life. One of them is career. So if you have success in your career, great, then there's personal, right? Am I a whole person?

Have I worked out my, have I unpacked those bags? Have I worked out the injuries? And have I even acknowledged their injuries? A lot of times we don't even do that. We're like, it made me better. You're like, yeah, well, you probably gave you some things, but it also wounded you and you're still wounded. you've got to figure out what it is. So if my personal life is not thriving, intrapersonal relationships,

you know, love life or friendships, if that's not thriving, is this category that's hugely successful? Is it really successful? Right. If the other categories are all failing. Yeah, that's kind of like an empty and sad existence, I would say, you know what I mean? Like, you're on the top of the, it's less like, you know, the cliche of like, you know, the rock star that's like on top of the world. They've got a number one song, but they're just, you know, they're depressed. They're not happy. It's the, yeah, the cautionary tale or the, it's almost like people expect to have that. The artists that are afraid to heal and not be a mess because they think their art's going to suffer.

I'm like, is it worth making art if you're miserable? Yeah. Well, and that's tough, right? Because I feel like hurt people gravitate towards art because it's a way to express yourself. It's a way to, you know, a cathartic experience or to put a message into something without, you know, saying it. and so that's tough because those are the kinds of people that gravitate towards art. Yeah. But, you know, that doesn't always, it's not always the greatest combination.

It's a great vehicle for pain and suffering in one way to relieve yourself as an artist. But you do also have to actually work on it, I think, which we don't talk about. We talk about it more now than we used to. What do you think hurt you the most? That's a really, that's a tough one. I'll tell you mine. Yeah, well, you go first then. I think it was the idea that the world would love me.

Yeah. And when I got out there, I felt like they hated me. And it really did damage to me. Yeah. Because I did want to be. I came into it with an overwhelmingly positive idea of what it would be to connect with people through music. And I was met with everything else. I do think that's why I hold such a sacred respect for the fans that were there

because I did feel like there was something there that I needed. But even then every now and then you have a moment where they're mad at you for something. But in general, I think I had this idea that if I made it, I would go into the world and everyone would love me. And I was genuinely not trying to do anything but that. actually that was like my core mission actually was was a was like this friendship idea because I didn't have a I didn't feel like I had a lot of friends growing up and the big bad world was like just not nice yeah tear near to shreds well yeah like I mean I definitely can identify with that

I feel like my motivations for being in the band were different And more artistic? Yes and no. I've always felt like, you know, I've had, like there's something to prove, you know, like we, Kitty has always sort of not played by the rules, you know, when people would say things like, you can't do this. We would be like, well, fuck you, we absolutely can. And we're going to and here we are doing it.

Yeah, you were like, you were, you were badass. Like you saw, like from the beginning, I remember. It was that you guys were just little badasses. Yeah. I mean, like there was like, you know, especially early on, you know, there was like a little bit of a brady kind of, you know, slant to things. But for me, yeah, there was always a lot of like, you know, well, I have something to prove. But I think that the thing that has hurt me the most would be being invalidated by people saying, well, you know, there's no way that you could have

done that. It makes you feel like, you know, you're an imposter. It's like, oh, are you really worthy? am I worthy of the success, the things that we've, you know, had happened to us? The adulation? Yeah, yeah, all of our achievements, you know, are we really worthy of that? Because there are people there out there that don't believe that we could have accomplished this. And I don't know, like I just feel like Kitty and like as a testament to like all of the things that you can achieve.

Like no one should ever let you stand in the way of just doing what you want to do, expressing yourself the way that you want to, especially if you're young, you know, people that tell you no. It's like you're only stifling the kind of greatness that that everyone has the opportunity. You know, and that's just not just,

that's not just in music, that's in everything. You know, if you like, you're, you know, your dad tells you, oh, you can't do that, you know, then you're going to believe that. And then you're never going to strive for those things. And personally, I feel like we have been, lucky in having parents that were like, you do the thing. And it does sort of touch on some of the things that you were mentioning about your kids,

you know, and sort of like being like, you know, I'm going to, you know, allow them to, I can admit that I made mistakes. I'm going to sort of parent in a different way to fix the things that, that maybe were, you know, done to me by my parents. Like, my dad definitely did not have a great childhood, a great upbringing, was told by his parents that he wasn't allowed to do a lot of things. And so I feel like in a way that he was doing that where he was like, you know what, you guys, you go out and tour of the world. He was like, I always wanted to play drums. He let my sister play drums. You know, they let us leave high school.

He was all in. Yeah, for sure. He was like, you know, I'm going to give you guys the opportunities that I never felt that I had. Yeah. But the experience of having people tell you that like you're not good enough to, you know, to have these things to say that, like, there's no way that a 16-year-old girl could play the guitar like that, could write that. And it's coming from grown men. It's something I have carried with me. Experts. Yes, exactly. But I've carried that with me for my entire life. Like, maybe there's still a little bit of me that's like, oh, you know, like, do I really know what I'm doing? Am I a fraud? But yeah, it's a really hard thing to, and destabilizing thing

to have heard over and over again throughout your career. Yeah. And as somebody that, like, I think we're, I think we're a great band. We are very competent musicians.

We've done a lot. And it's just like a weird thing. Like, to try to like tell someone that, like, well, I just, you know, you're just not good enough or I don't believe that. Honestly, it makes me love you guys. Thank you. That you even say that.

because there's no it's not in question here. Yeah, of course. And it's not in question, I would say, in most places. If it is, it's some obscure guy somewhere who's living in a different time and really irrelevant to the conversation of right now that we're having. So I love that. It really captures the humility of you guys. And there's a sensitivity there that I think is important for art.

It's funny. Like you guys are, you're, you're good. Thanks. You know, I mean, it's widely, it's cool, it's cool. You know, kitty's putting out a record. Great. It's been a while. Yeah.

You know? We all have that. You know, the thing I always tell myself when I have the imposter syndrome happening because we all have that. And anyone who's growing, achieving, succeeding, any of that, we all question, can I do this? Is this really me? Is this or did the stars line up?

No. This is you. You're going forward and you're doing things. When I question myself, I just have to tell myself, I don't have to say, no, it is you. Yes, let's go. I go, well, maybe, but let's see. And just keep, if I can keep myself going forward and I go, maybe, I may surprise myself. Maybe I'm not a fraud.

Yeah. Maybe there's something there. let's keep trying, let's keep seeing. And then the road unfolds and you have, you're going to have, you're going to have continued successes of different kinds. And you'll make sense of them each different way because I just think that the natural order of us as we grow.

And I think this era of our careers is about something different. It's about that. It's about discovering something else. Yeah. It's less about anyone clapping for us. And it's more about making the art we want to make and seeing how we feel about it when we go out in the world. Yeah, this time around.

On our terms, you know. So I always like this because we're having similar experiences. And I talk to a lot of musicians about the different chapters of our careers. They're super important. Yeah, absolutely. We are, right now, we're in this weird second chapter where it feels like everything that we've done so far has just been like a win.

And it's like the wins that we never thought that we would have been able to achieve in any other period in our career. And it's just so weird to see that happening and unfolding in real time and being able to enjoy it and experience it as the people that we are now. Like with the experience and the maturity and all of those things, sort of just heading head first into the unknown. But like it's just, you know, things just lining up. What's the next big thing ahead for you?

Well, I mean, we're going to be putting out our first full album in, God, 13 years. I think our last album was 2011. So that's like a big thing. Yeah. That's a huge thing. Even just putting out the first single was like, you know, they're going to like us. But yeah, so putting this album out is something that like I never would have thought would be happening two, three years ago. And it's just like it's all happened so fast.

So even that in and of itself is like a huge deal, a new album, a new, you know, offering to the world. And we're hoping to be doing some headlining shows, which will be our first shows that we've headlined in 12 years as well. Sick. When's that? That should be July and August. We haven't announced dates yet. But that also was another really big thing for us, like something that we haven't done in a long time. And again, it's kind of the, you know, I hope people show up. I'm sure they will. They will.

Yeah. And like other than that, like we're just sort of taking it, you know, one day of time. We've got festivals that are coming up and just sort of like enjoying the process and seeing what new opportunities come about. Yeah, just enjoy it. Yeah. I think that's the beauty of being where we are at now. Is this like being able to sort of like take a breath and enjoy these things and see them for sort of what

they really are and like build excitement. And yeah, it's like the whole world is different now. It feels good. What part of Canada do you live in? I live, it's sort of outside of Toronto between Toronto and Detroit. Okay. Yeah. That's cool.

Southwestern Ontario. And do you go to Detroit a lot? Sometimes. I mean, we actually filmed a couple of videos recently there. Because it's a great place. Lots of interesting spaces. Canada's nice. Yeah, isn't it?

So nice. It's a wonderful place. And like, you know, I think most Canadians are nice, right? How many Canadians do you know that are mean? Not many. So I work in Vancouver six weeks a year. Okay. I do Inkmaster, the TV show.

And so it's become a little bit of like a home away from home for that. That's a long enough time. I don't spend any six week period anywhere else. And it's just so nice. Vancouver is a beautiful city. It's really nice. People are nice, super chill. Food's good.

Nobody's really tripping. about anything. We got good vibes up in Canada. Yeah. It's all that legal weed we got going on. Yeah, legal weed and I think legal mushrooms now too. Yeah, we're starting to dabble in a few of those things in certain places. I think it's decriminalized in some places.

It's not legal yet. But, you know, the authorities are sort of turning a blind eye on like a pop-up store. So you can go to places and buy mushrooms at a store. Yeah. And they're just like, we know. They love rock music. Everybody just seems to like be cool. They're not too concerned with everyone else's life.

Like it feels like when I'm in Vancouver, I just feel like I'm just in Vancouver with everybody else. Yeah. And everybody's friendly. Everybody, it's just really, really nice. Yeah, not all up in everybody else's business. Yeah, they don't give a fuck. Political or whatever.

No, it's like whatever, do you. Yeah, for sure. It's a good vibe. Yeah, it is. Like where I live, you know, I kind of, I enjoy the fact that there's some anonymity to sort of, you know, everybody just kind of doing their own thing. Like, I'm, I live in a place where no one gives a fuck who I am. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And that's, that's cool. It's nice. It's, it certainly has helped to me to, like, you know, get assimilated into normal society, you know, from the break that we had and everything like that. And I don't know. Like, it must be, it must be difficult living in a place like L.A. where like I'm going to turn the tables on you. Yeah. Like what's that,

what does that like to be in a place where, you know, people are always like got the binoculars out for celebrities and like, you know, you and your wife, your wife is also a well-known person. Like, what's that like? That's a good question. I think I've been here 20 years, but if you're not from here,

it's always going to feel foreign to you. It's going to feel when I go home to Maryland, And it's a little bit more like Vancouver. It's a little bit more like everybody's just living their lives. And it's cool. Like even in Vancouver, people are like, oh, hey, good Charlotte. Cool. That's it.

Yeah. And then it's just a detail that is cool. But that's it at best, you know. You have honest exchanges. You're not like, you're not getting any special treatment, but you're also not getting because there's some places you can go. If people know who you are, you'll either get special treatment. Yeah.

Or they're going to prove they don't care. by treating you like shit. Right. Well, there's two different versions of it, which I actually understand both. And I go a lot, actually, a few times a year.

And it's just like a warm, nice. It's like a safe space, right? Yeah. But they would also hold me accountable if I was an asshole. Yeah, of course. The same way I think they wouldn't, in Vancouver,

if I was an asshole. People would be like, oh, you're an asshole. So manners are a thing, right? Like, we should just have manners. Yeah. Here, I think in L.A., there's aspects of that that are,

that exists here for sure in the community. So I'm in a community here. My kids are in school, in sports. And it feels like that. It's not what everyone makes it out to be. There's good people everywhere. There's bad people everywhere. Good people in, you know, you surround yourself with good people.

You're going to have a good experience. You surround yourself bad people. You're going to have a bad experience. Yeah. Me and my wife have had this argument in the early stages of parenting where I was like, we should move back home. because that's my home. That's what I feel.

Because this place is foreign to me and I'm terrified of what I don't understand or no. And her argument is, hunt, there's just as much bad that could happen there in a different way. It's up to us, you know,

to stay connected to our kids, raise our kids, lead by example, all that, than it is to like think that they're going to become a product of some idea

that you've never even actually experienced, you just have an idea of this place. And that actually was a real, real, that's when I started to think differently. I was like, yeah, maybe I'm just thinking of this place is what I was told my whole life. Right. The big, bad, evil place. Like, no, there's kind of evil everywhere you go. Absolutely there is, you know, even up in Canada, where everybody's happy. There's a bunch of evil. Yeah. No, but like, there's always going to be an element that you have to learn how to navigate around and through and make sense of. So I think L.A. is great, depending on your experience here is going to be who you hang out with.

Yeah. And I think that is also everywhere, right? It's like if you surround, like I said, you surround yourself with great people, you can make your home anywhere. It's like you're building your own town. You know, can make the best of any situation if you're surrounded by the right people. Having a support system is, is super, super important. You know, and surrounding yourself with people that are like-minded and supportive and like truly care about, you know, your well-being and, you know, support you know, in anything that you do. But I love Vancouver. I love Austin. You're like, but, but I do still want to move there.

These are the cities I pitch all the time. I, like every other month I'm pitching, Vancouver, Austin, Texas. I agree with that as well. That's a great place. Yeah. I love it there. Nashville. I love Nashville.

I go there a lot, would love to live there, but when it comes down to it, you're like, yeah, it's a not yet thing. Maybe you can retire in Nashville. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, I mean, I've played in Nashville many times, but recently had the experience of living there for like six weeks, five weeks when we recorded. Yeah, we made the album. I just never realized how small Nashville actually is. Like it has like a reputation that precedes itself, right? It's like the, the birthplace of country and like the industry. It seems like everybody's sort of flocking there, but I just didn't realize how small it really was.

It's a cute little, it's a cute little. It's a cute small town. Yeah, it's a cute little place. I really enjoyed my time there. I think there's so much history from music. Mostly when we were there, we did a lot of hiking. They got some great parks, you know, just did old people shit, you know. Hiked and made a metal album.

Just made some metal music. Yeah. know, you know. Are you excited to be back out here in metal music? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think that, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be, we wouldn't be back at it if it wasn't exciting, if it wasn't like a challenge, if it wasn't something that we didn't think was important. Yeah. And ultimately, it's like if it's exciting and fun, like that's where we want to be. That's where we're at in our career. If it's not, we don't want a part of it. Yeah. I think I think that's a beautiful thing.

Do you feel like, oh, geez? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Been there, done that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I feel like all of that experience is just like lends to like what's happening right now. You know, like just being here, you're getting to talk to you, like just all of this stuff, you know. We certainly have a lot of experience.

We feel like veterans, you know. I'm so happy you're here. Well, thank you. It's awesome. I feel a lot of happiness. And I'm excited about the rest of. record, but I just love when I see like an OG. Yeah.

Like seeing someone else get back up and do it again and do it well is one good reason for me to say, I think I could do that too, right? Yeah, I mean, passion, artistry, there should be no expiration date on that, right? And, you know, the older that we get, the more life experience we have, the more, I think, important and special it is. And to realize you're not old, you're old enough to know. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, there shouldn't be an expiration date on any of that. And there are, you know, plenty of people in the world who have to start over in whatever aspect of their life and any age. And there's nothing wrong with that. There are people that go back to university or college at 80 years old because they're like, I never did it. You know what? There's no expiration date on that, on learning, on self-improvement, on creating because it's what you are passionate. for it's what you need to do you know at any age we should be able to be like yes we can start over

and we can thrive everything you've done is not lost it's not no it and it wasn't for nothing like all the painful experiences all the good experiences all the time um even the time that i didn't do anything it was not for nothing that's the thing we can feel when we put the record on when we listen to it we can feel the experience we can whether we recognize it as that or not there's something like inherently that we listen to a band, we see them on stage and they can just throw down. That's years of experience. I'm excited for this chapter of Katie.

I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be your best one. Well, I mean, that's the hope, right? You know, you can only hope that, you know, you get a second chance like this and you come out swinging and people are just like, yes, you know. You know, we've had a lot of experiences, good and bad in the past.

There's been a lot of lineup changes and all that stuff, but we try not to let those things define who we are. We can create our own future and create this new era of Kitty. And I mean, I do, I hope it's the best yet. Like personally, I feel like it is musically, artistically. We're at the best place that we could possibly be in. Like, you know, our friendships are so strong. We're just all at a really good place in our lives and we're ready to go all in.

I'm excited for the record. Thank you. We're excited as well. It's good to be here. It's going to be good. Yeah. I'm excited. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thank you, of course. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Artist Friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support, and we'll see you next time.