Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - nothing,nowhere.

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by nothing,nowhere. Back in 2015, nothing,nowhere. (aka Joe Mulherin) quickly earned a devout following within the emo and hip-hop underground when he self-released The Nothing,Nowhere LP — a debut filled with grief, anxiety, and bruised experimentalism. He’s currently observing that milestone with The Return of the Reaper: A Decade of Darkness throughout the rest of May, where he’s playing some of his most beloved tracks.  In a conversation with Madden, nothing,nowhere. opens up about veganism, the importance of using social media to build a community, and celebrating 10 years of songs on tour. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly on this episode. I'm talking with musician, rapper, singer-songwriter, content creator, and music producer, nothing nowhere. Let's go. It's great business over here. That's how it works, man. It's what you guys do. It's perfect. Yeah, I was mixing it up. I haven't been here because I recorded an album here. I record it a lot here. And like, I was just telling everybody in the crew, like, this is my, this is my favorite place in L.A. to go because as soon as you step in here, it's like, okay, I can breathe. You know, you have like the art. As soon as you can't, I don't know what candle you got going in the reception area,

but it's amazing. We got candles. We got incense. We got body oil. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever? Oh, I wear oil, bro. Yeah. I don't wear a cologne. Really? That's like the meta. It's more like it sinks in your skin and then you don't have to, it's on you if you wear it enough. I wear this like, um,

this like, so there's a place you can go and mix your own oils and stuff. And I have like a wood. Um, what else is in it? I have the, uh, ingredients because I got a,

I copied a thing that I, a scent that I liked. Yeah, yeah, um, it was like a candle or something. Yeah. But,

um, you know, like dip teak candles. Yeah, yeah. You gotta put me on. My wife put me on actually originally like good candles

like nice ones. Yeah yeah yeah. Anyways so oil Yeah that's, I'm like a I'm like a weird like Vermonter and like all I use is like Tom's of Maine like like deodorant and then like that's it but like I'm getting more into the sense.

You know who got me into crazy sense is Travis. Travis Barker. Oh wow. He uh, in his studio he has like this like amazing like just vibe in there. It's kind of similar to this but like there are these little like pinion like uh, just really earthy

like incense. They come into blocks and then he has these black sand that you put in and it was like dude I think we use the same thing yeah here okay

that explains why I'm like they're like these little like yeah these little like things you yeah they light them so crazy how much like a scent can just like something

it's everything it's everything yeah I always thought Travis looked like he smelled good he does because you know he looks clean

super clean there's nothing like cleanliness you look really clean, by the way. You think so? Thanks, dude. Yeah, thanks. I actually showered this morning. Yeah. But like, but it's not just a shower. Yeah. It's a routine. It's like I put on my oil. I put on a specific deodorant. I like, I comb, even though I wear a hat every day, I comb my hair

until it's dry basically. Like, it's like a meditation almost. Like, but I have a routine that I do every day and every night depending on X, Y, and Z. Yeah. I always have a shower. routine at night and then face lotion and stuff but in the morning it's the shower routine's different because it's quick get out the door type thing was it always so was it always that way or did things drastically change once you met your wife i believe it was always that way as soon as i had money yeah yeah okay because i think i grew up with factors i couldn't control and i think i talked about in therapy. Yeah. I think a little bit of my OCD around, I want to say OCD is an extreme word because I know there are people out there suffering from like real OCD. I was actually talking about this with

Patrick from movements. Shout out Pat. Yeah. I love him. He's the man. And he's got OCD, but he's got real OCD. Like he's like he has things. So I'm not saying that I have that because I feel like people are like suffering from like a condition where they like a challenge. them their life. This is more like idiosyncratic control things because I think growing up I had things I couldn't control money where we had to move. We had to get evicted move, live with someone from church, live in a basement of someone's house, moved to here. It was like a weird, there was these weird periods where we like fell on hard times and we would have to live with people. And I was like all my stuff was in a bag and we like slept on the floor and it was like kind of just dirty.

Yeah. And I just remember feeling like or there was like we had to cook on like a hot plate and it was like like a like a George Foreman. Like a hot plate like a like a flat like surface cook or stuff. And it would like smell a little bit and you'd be like so your clothes or you'd wear the same clothes but you're young so you don't know anything else so you kind of like don't make sense of it until you go to school and someone like makes fun of you or says something and then you start to become conscious of it and like over that experience when I got to my own adult life

and went out as soon as we could we left home and I think we were actually getting evicted or something again and we were like we're out and we like literally like walked down a road got into the world everything I had was like clean and not to say my mom didn't keep a clean house like she kept clean houses that wasn't the that but I felt like overly like control freak about like my clothes the way I smelled shower three times a day yeah like yeah weird I don't know so I think it's something like that yeah well also like yeah like having that scarcity mindset from when you're growing up and like it like an underserved underprivileged kind of environment it's just very interesting too like I wonder if

those things you know maybe like a certain smell or a certain way that a room looks is like like it's a politicized word maybe now, but it's a trigger, it's real. It's a trigger. You know what I mean? Triggers are real. Triggers are real. Bro, yeah.

There's not a political about that for me. It's insane. Yeah. People trigger me. Straight up. Yeah. And like there are like, yeah, like I have panic disorder too. And there's like,

there's been things that I've been around when I had a panic attack. Like one time I had such a bad panic attack and I was eating like, you know, it's like Jasmine rice or whatever. Yeah. I avoided jazz. It's great. It's great. And I avoided Jasmine Rice for three years.

Oh wow. Because I was like, that's, if I, it's going to trigger me or whatever. You know what I mean? So that's, yeah, that's all real. It makes sense that like you'd want to be like, yo, this is what it was growing up. Like, this is not what it is anymore. And it's how you carry yourself. Yeah.

It's how you carry yourself. I don't care what you have. If you walk in the room and you carry yourself like you're worth something. Yeah. And you can't just have me. I'm not free. Yeah. I'm not poor.

Exactly. You know what I mean? I think that's like a learned thing too. Yeah. And it's not like, I know, well, I know a lot of guys, I'm sure you do too, because obviously being in the industry, like, that are kind of just born with that, you know what I mean? But I also know a lot of people, like me too, you know what I mean? Where it was like I had to get to a point and be like, no, man, like I deserve to be here.

I deserve to like be playing the show. Like, this isn't a fluke. You know what I mean? Like, I worked hard, you know? And you're you. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing is like, why would you put anyone above you or below you?

Yeah, exactly. You don't get to be anyone else. So why not be you? Yeah. And own it and love it and then find out what you can do in relationship to you. Yeah. Not I want to be him. No, because that's never going to work.

No, and we had to learn the same thing. I think I just met some people or something that affected me like where I saw someone who had real confidence, but it was like real confidence where they were just like good yeah with themselves totally and then I just started really learning how to be that myself yeah and it's like embracing your flaws too yeah like and embracing like the parts of you that like you kind of aren't extremely fond of yeah and you can like kind of like laugh at it exactly accept it yeah like that's another like this year's in particular these past two years it's like I think for years too I I mean, I don't know if good Charlie was like this or whatever,

but I took myself so seriously for so long. Like everything was like the most serious thing to me. And then as I got older, I was just like, you know, like, it's not that serious. You know, like, it's okay to like be cringe sometimes. It's okay to like let go and like, you know, just be you and like try different things, you know? Yeah. It's just a funny thing, especially starting out like in music. like I think I was trying to be someone else you know what I mean because I didn't believe in myself

the way that I should have so I was like well here's one dude that's doing it I'm gonna try and be like them and that never worked the only time it ever worked was like when you let go and you were just like well hey guys this is me like take it or leave it you know yeah I think that's all like part of the process of like I think in our minds before we get validation however we get it whether it's like over years on the road or enough records put out or enough got signed yeah got dropped got signed got signed again got dropped like you get validation over time you start to realize like oh this isn't anything what i thought it was and it's more than i thought it was and it's all all the different things in every different direction you start to realize like oh it's all kind of like the

fantasy of making it and what is that you know what i mean And then it's real life. Yeah, exactly. Where I'm actually kind of like the metaphor of like just putting bricks in the wall every day and stacking bricks and working and chopping wood, carrying water is a little bit more real. Like if you worked on a farm and you were like planting things, growing things, building things, plowing fields, taking care of animals. That's kind of what a career feels like. Sounds like my day at home right now.

Do you live on a farm? Well, we have like chickens and stuff. Okay. Yeah. Where do you live? In Vermont. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Vermont's great. It's cool. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. And I mean, if you're not a fan of the winter, it's probably not the place for you. Like, I flew out here like three days ago in the morning. Like, you think it's spring, but the morning I left, it was still like 19 degrees. Right.

It's still winter. Yeah. And I broke my finger just on my driveway, just busting my ass, like, just on some ice. Just slipped. This is winter's last laugh. Oh, you broke your finger. Yeah, dude. So, and I'm about to tour.

Like, we're going on tour. or the end of April, and I've just learned how to play guitar like this. Wow. It is what it is. But yeah, like Vermont's cool, it's just cold. It claims bones,

you know what I mean? But it's chill. But it's like, that's kind of what a career is like. It is, yeah. Just working. It is.

Trying and. Yeah. And I think when we come in, we don't give ourselves credit. We think we, we don't think we know. We don't think we have answers. We don't think we,

we think someone else knows better than us. All the people that have been here longer than us, they seem like they know more than us. But like at the end of the day, I think instincts are everything. And you've told me this before, like many years ago too. I distinctly remember kind of when I first started coming out to L.A. And I met you and Benji and Josh and everyone.

I remember you guys talking to me, kind of giving me a pep talk and being, And like, you know, like, the guys at the label, like, look at what shoes they're wearing. I was like, I said that one a lot. You said, exactly. And you told me that and you're like, would you let that person, you know, tell you how to dress? Would you let them dress you? Would you let them dress you?

You're cool, man. And I was like, I was like, no. I bet not. So then you were kind of like, obviously you're like, so why would you let them, you know, tell, like, tell you how to do your thing, like with music, you know? Yes. Yeah. And it's like, and boil. I've never heard it boiled down.

in that form before like it's such a in such simple terms you know what i mean like it's just like we as artists are kind of conduits and we can tap into things and we're born this way we're like we're extra sensitive um and there's a reason why we got into this is because we do it and we have sort of a knack for it you know what i mean and some guy who maybe knows how to like market stuff or whatever sure you're good at that but i don't know if you know how to like really make a song that grips you in a certain way you know what i mean that's just that feeling you get in the studio There's a difference. I always thought you were cool, too.

When I met you, I was like, I hope no one fucks with his cool. Because you have a very subtle, nice, friendly, cool disposition. Well, Sam, dude, that's why I probably learned it from you guys, like, growing up. No, you had it. You had it. And I see new kids come sometimes. And it's like, remember Adam Sandler when he's shaking the kids, don't go to high school.

Oh, yeah. I feel like I'm saying that to the artist. When I see him, I'm like, don't ever grow up. Because what makes us special is the kid before anyone told us we could do it. The kid who thought, I think I could do that. And then he tried really hard. And he had his imagination. And he told his friends.

And he would just go up to people and say, I'm in a band, check us out. And it was honest. That's the kid I want to meet. Yeah. not the person who knows everything and has had all these hits and will tell you how to have a hit. I'm not saying they're wrong. And I'm not saying you can't learn. We all learn from each other.

But it's the coolest one is the kid who is honest. Yeah. Whatever that means. Yeah. And like we, you were probably, you've been on the journey now since we met to now. I've been on it. We had to find our way back to the kid. Yeah.

To be honest. Yeah. And then I had to like strip myself of any. need to be successful to get to what do I want to do what is my dream and then go after it honestly so that I can actually be honest about it and do it and fight against the urge to think about what are people going to say what do people think yeah yeah is this cool yeah I mean this show's been a whole journey of that like I didn't took me five years to start this show yeah because I was so worried who's going to listen it's a feel

fear of being perceived. Yeah. And that's that, I've struggled with that, like, immensely. Like, you know, like, when I started my career, I started as a faceless project. You know what I mean? And I had such a massive fear of being perceived. And it, yeah, like, it takes years, as you know, it's like. And then it's just at the end of the day, you're like, who am I trying to impress, dude?

Like, people I don't know, like, on Instagram. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, like, what is sustainable for me to live my life and do what I love? Yeah, exactly. And then where do I want to live? Oh, I want to live in Vermont. Yeah.

Great. Like that's, to me, that sounds amazing. Yeah, yeah. It's cool. It's cool. It's like, I love it. You know what I mean? But I would never sit here and be like,

everyone would love this. You know what I mean? It's a flavor. Yeah, it's a frozen tundra in the middle of it. Like, I have Ben and Jerry's. We got Ben and Jerry's. There's 2,000, less than 2,000 people in my town. There's one, there's a post office slash town clerks.

office and that's the only building. What do you do there? Do you ever go there? I went there to vote. I went there for a little land dispute. I own 10 acres and, uh, I went to the dispute over. It was just like someone needed an easement to get on their 20 acres and I was like, yeah, sure, no worries. So you were cool about it. I was cool about it. I was cool about it. I didn't want to be an asshole. You know what I mean? I was like, yeah, dude, so long as you know ruin the dirt road or whatever, it's cool, you know? Um, yeah. And they're like all my neighbors, like, they all make like 65, 70,000 gallons of sap every year for maple syrup production. And it's like, yeah, it's out there.

My neighbor's cool. Shout out my neighbor, Jeff. He comes and he brings me on his tractor. He'll just like plow my driveway for free. And, yeah. It's cool, man. But like, you have animals? Yeah, I got chickens, got cats.

No, like goats or anything. I have two cats. Dude, they're, they're cool. One of my cats is like a crackhead, but she just like bites the shit out of me. How many cats do you have? Should have two. Okay. You have two?

Yeah, two girls. Yeah, I have two girls too. Yeah. Are they chill or do they? They're not chill at all. Yeah. One of them is a real kind of queen. Mm-hmm.

She runs the house. Yep. And then her name's Tiger Lily. Mm-hmm. We call her Teegs. And the other one is lavender. Bumblebee. I did not name these cats.

The kids name them? The kids and Nicole's. She kind of I feel like she plays jokes on everyone by giving these animals These fucking names So that you have to say them Yeah it's like when you go out to eat or something

They're like let me get this sultry sweet sunset surprise Like can I just get this? Yeah Do I have to say that And they're both like dumpster cats Like they came out of the freaking gutter And like We did not need cats

They came and then Nicole's like They came to us from the universe And I'm like no they didn't They came from the dumpster behind Chick-fil-Aid, dude. And you fed them. Yeah. And they need to live somewhere, and you've offered them our house. Yeah.

And now they're a part of our family. But, and they're, you know, they let, it's funny because I said no to both cats. And no one listens to me. So I'm like, no, we're not getting, we have two dogs. Yeah. And like, no, not having cats. And then they're on the first one I said no. Literally like, God only knows where this cat came from.

and then then she gets in the family and then it's like lovely she's like everyone loves her you know it's family

pet the kids and then and then the next cat comes we were moving and the movers said she jumped out of the moving

truck and like they were like she must have been in the garage and I was like uh no

you had 12 fucking kittens and you've been shilling them on everyone for the last guarantee it for the last three weeks I guarantee you it was some like get rid of the kittens scam nice nice nice

I'm sticking with that yeah I'm not I'm not a cynical person but yeah I wasn't born yesterday and um and then over the years the last few years somehow I became their favorite person and they just both like hair

on me it's terrible yeah yeah yeah They're cool. Yeah, one of my cats is like super, like scared of everything and the other, my other cat is like a demon. Same. Yeah, absolute demon. The young one, the younger one, she's scared. The older one is the demon. Okay, mine's reverse. Okay. But, yeah, like we, so like we live out in the country and stuff. So we have a lot of mice, like in our woodshed and in our basement and stuff. It's like, you live out there, you're going to have mice. And unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know, my cat, who's the demon, will find a lot of

mice and sometimes in the middle of the night I'll be asleep and she'll drop a dead mouse on my face sometimes they'll be alive as well so we had to we yeah it was traumatic and we had to start we had to start locking them out. That's terrible. It's insane

yeah it's actually insane they're indoor cats too and they're still like murking mice so yeah we brought our chickens in one day to see if like they'd be cool with them. Did any of them die? The chicken, yeah we've got a ton of chickens die. Yeah we have to. Yeah you have We have chickens too?

We have chickens. What? Yeah. Why don't we do? In my backyard. Yeah, same. What kind of? I didn't choose the chickens.

Like she wanted chickens. Well, the chickens came from, like the people I bought the house from there. Like, do you want the chickens? Yeah. Chickens are great if you live on a farm. Yeah. Where do you, so you guys have a coop? We live in Beverly Hills.

You got a boozy chickens. We have a big ass. We have a custom. They got Gucci track suits. Let me tell you something. We had a, so where I'm from, you could build a chicken. coop for like a couple hundred dollars you can get the you can get a a kit yeah we do like 400 bucks right yeah a couple hundred dollars you get it you're

four hundred dollars you get a kit you build it it's a chicken coop and that's actually like what you should have for your chickens in my mind when when my wife said I'm gonna get a chicken coop yeah do you mind I'm gonna get a chicken coop I was like sure and I show up and there's like four guys building this like custom It looks like it's going to be like a guest house or something. Like the Taj Mahal. And they're like building the structure. And I was like, how big is this thing going to be?

It's out in the corner of a yard. So we don't have, we don't have an acre. We have like, it's a decent size yard. But for L.A., it's like. Yeah. But it's, I don't know. I didn't see a chicken coop there like a big one. I thought it was a small one would be like normal like eight by 10 or something.

Yeah. It's bigger than that. No way. So I was thinking like eight by 10, you know, chicken wire. Yeah, dude. Eat Simple in the corner. Nice. Out of the way.

I get home and there's like posts and it looks substantial. Wow. And I said, what's it? What do you guys do? And they're like, oh, we're building the chicken coop. And I was like, this doesn't look like a chicken coop to me. Looks like a guest house. Airbnb.

And so they end up building this beautiful structure where a guest house could be. I've said this for years. I said, wouldn't it be nice if we had a guest house, we could build it right there where the chicken coop is. We have this argument all the time. So they finished the chicken coop. It was very expensive when I got the bill. I was like, I really should have managed this project.

Crazy. I did not. It was a lot of, I completely overlooked. They're living the life, though. Well, yeah, now all of them are dead, but two. I have two left, too. There's two left two. We have very parallel lives.

It's insane. So, okay, I love chickens. Do you know what kind of breathe they are off the top of your head or not? There was a silky. Yeah. There was, uh, I don't know, what was the other ones? They got like wine dotes. They got like Buff Warpingtons, Rhode Island Reds.

No. Bard Rocks. No. Yeah, dude. Silky was one that stands out. Yeah, they got the crazy hair. Yeah, I have one Buff Warpinton, one wind oat. And yeah, that's the thing that people don't realize is chickens love to die.

They die. They're insanely good at it. And like things kill them. Yeah. Like a squirrel ran, dug a hole, and killed one of ours, a squirrel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you do the hardware cloth underneath and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had to hardware cloth our entire outdoor run and we have a motion sensor light and we have like the automatic door and everything. Yeah.

Because we have bears and we have raccoons and hawks and owls. Foxes. Yeah. It's crazy. I used to free range him until like they just started dying. I was like, we're not doing this. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So now that there's only two left, we've made a deal. So once these two die, we're done. Literally my girlfriend and I, it's the same thing. It's the exact same thing. But like our oldest chickens, like five years old. And she's the one who's lived the longest. Our oldest is like seven.

Yeah. You see those TikToks of like all the cottage core people like romanticizing it and stuff. It's like, I love my chickens. Like they're my pets. I love them. But they're, they're chickens. They're shitheads. There's so much work.

It's like, and I will, there's any takeaway. No, I'm vegan. Oh, you're vegan? Yeah, yeah. Oh. Yeah, so I don't eat them. Are you vegan by moral practice or vegan by dietary needs? Certainly moral practice, yeah.

So you love animals. Yeah. And you, thinking of an animal being killed so that you could eat makes you feel like terrible. Yeah, that's a good way to paraphrase it. Okay. Paraphrase it, yeah, yeah. It shows the depth of your, like, sensitivity. I'd like to think so maybe I don't know

it's kind of like second nature now you know what I mean it's been like 14 years so it's kind of like all I know at this point you know Billy from Good Charlotte is vegan oh yeah really I didn't know that

shout out Billy I think for the same reason too yeah it's very sensitive to that yeah idea of like something suffering so that he could yeah eat is I think uh it hurts his like hurts his soul yeah it was just definitely something that I was really interested in

I went vegan like 2011 and like I had never met a vegan person in real life and of course I was in Burlington Vermont just like hippie central and like met my first vegan and I'd never thought about it ended up watching some lectures by like this vegan rights activist or as animal rights activist Gary Rovsky and just like was like all right I'm going to give us a try and gave the chicken in my freezer to my roommate at the time in college and then that was a wrap but that's nice yeah Dude, especially being out here, like everything in L.A. is vegan. It's like, it's kind of overwhelming. I went to Crossroads last night. We have lots of options.

And yeah, it's, it's, I'm not used to it. I'm used to go into like a place and maybe there's like two things, but like I'm like, I can eat all this. Crossroads is amazing. It's crazy. For anyone that's vegan that's ever been to L.A. or coming to L.A., that's like a standout for me. Like, I'll eat there. I'm not vegan, but it's still like really delicious. Yeah. like a spot like I remember I took my dad there once and he was like mind blown he's like this if they had this

everywhere like everybody would be vegan you know what I mean is there like a spiritual aspect to vegan yeah because I know like Hinduism is vegan right yeah in a lot of Buddhists as well and Buddhist as well right personally spiritually like yeah like I think um I you know I like to like put my head on the pillow at night knowing that I didn't contribute to any suffering to any my planetary companions. You know what I mean? Yeah. Any being that's sentient,

any being that feels pain, I don't want to contribute to that pain if I don't have to. Of course, the old adage of like, you know, what if you're stranded on a fucking island? Yeah, I'd eat a person at that point, you know what I mean?

To survive. Totally, yeah. But because, you know, I have, like, there's an unlimited amount of options, you know, it's just like I choose the one that's not, you know,

an animal. I like that. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool. I have a lot of friends that are vegan A lot of friends that aren't like, you know, obviously like people who are interested in it Like I'll talk their ear off about it

You know what I mean? And then people are there not, I'm like, yeah, do you? You know? I don't know if I could ever be vegan. I don't have any interest in it, but I'm always interested in like people that have chosen like a path.

Yeah, yeah. And like understanding like what they get out of it Because I like the idea of, um, a lifestyle or like a path for someone getting a, a higher version of themselves or like enlightenment of some kind. Yeah. And also like likely some kind of healing out of it.

Yeah. So I think everyone has their own versions of spirituality. Yeah. And I think we only think in terms of like a certain kind of religion versus like a way of living. Yeah. That keeps you conscious like for whatever reason you're super conscious of suffering. Right. And maybe it's like something you went through or maybe something in your being like is carrying.

something that like you're conscious of every single day i live this way and i feel closer to good right yeah you know what i mean and i think like that's actually like how we're supposed to live yeah it's like acclimating towards good totally yeah you know so i think it's cool yeah and i don't want like i think it's maybe maybe it's a little pretentious to be like um when i you know when it's my time to go like i just want to know i made the world a better place I don't think that I would ever want to say that. I just want to say that, like, my existence didn't make the world any worse than it already is. Why wouldn't you say you want to make the world a better place?

I do want to. I just don't know if I harbor that type of power as a singular human being against, like, the forces that be. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I think, like, I would be happy as, like, if my legacy is that, like, you know, I didn't make anything worse than it already is. You know what I mean? But it is, I don't want to like, I don't want to say that it's not inspiring. It's not cool to be like, I want to make the world a better place.

I think everyone should want to make the world a better place. Maybe there's just a little side of pessimism there for me. You know what I mean? It's because of all the structures in place that kind of are fucking the world up right now. Yeah. I guess I feel the same way. Yeah. I was thinking about that.

I was like, do I want to make the world a better place? Yes. Yeah. I do. But maybe I think like we're like, Or we're just making people feel better. Yeah, I think through music too, even just like that's enough. Like I know people like especially me like growing up listening to Good Charlotte.

Like you guys had a massive impact on my life and the trajectory of my life. Really? Of course. Yeah. That's amazing. Like when I was a kid, I had poster boards. Like I'm sure you hear it from younger artists all the time. But I had like, I made a whole poster board when I was home sick from school one day.

And it was like Tony Hawk, Van Margera. It was you and Benji, you and Benji had the liberty. spikes of course and it was just like one whole side was good charlotte one whole side was Tony hawk and then the middle was just like motocross stuff like metal malicious stuff yeah and then i'd had like a bunch of like so like and i heard like the anthem and i heard like i heard you guys had a profound whereas like if i don't if i didn't find good charlotte i don't know if i would be doing what i'm doing today you know what i mean so i know that you guys had a profound impact on my life and now i have a platform where I can do that the same to other younger kids. You know what I mean?

So it's like, that's like, I think that's a really special and cool thing to be able to do. You know what I mean? It's really nice to hear. And it's a really nice idea. I think it's like making things that you love and sharing them with people and they get inspired to make something they love and share with people. Yeah. And I think it's like this like actual like pure thing. Yeah. Just spreading like, like inspiring other people to inspire others and just creating that chain reaction. Yeah.

Hopefully in a positive way, not like a Charles Manson way. Yeah, like what I came to realize around 40 years old, the whole time I was searching for me. Yeah. And I thought I was searching for a bunch of other things. I thought I was searching for success.

I thought I was searching for money. I thought I was searching for like whatever fame is. or whatever it means for people to acknowledge, like for people to like like you or whatever you thought it was. The whole journey to this point, I realized I came to the place where I was like, oh, I've actually just been searching to be me and like like myself.

Yeah. And then if you get to the place where you like, like yourself, you don't need much. Yeah. And then when you're there, you kind of start going like, okay,

well, need anything, what do I, what do I like? What do I want? And it's a different want than if you think you need to get this to get that. Yeah, there's that problem of like perpetually becoming and never being. Right. So, and I'm kind of into throes of that right now where it's like my whole career, especially early on when I was really struggling with mental health, I had such an immense connection to the present moment. And I was like, the present moment's all that mattered. Now that I'm more sort of like career driven, you know what I mean? I'm only thinking in the future. And I wonder, you know what I mean? It's kind of like that thing. And you have, I think you have a better perspective than I do for sure,

because your career has been so long and storied where you can look back at those times where you've been working towards something. And then you're like, well, I want to work towards this. And then I imagine that you get to a point where you're like, that line of thinking is never going to end. There's always something else to work towards. There's always another mountain to climb till eventually you just stop and look around and be like, okay, like maybe I'm searching for, you know, you see what I'm trying to say? And that's kind of like where I feel like I'm headed, you know? When did you start struggling with mental health, would you say?

Oh, dude. Yeah, I started, I got diagnosed with a panic disorder when I was in like second grade. Okay, so you were young. I was very young. Yeah, I wasn't in classes with other kids and stuff. I'd have like a teacher's aid and stuff. It was very, it was difficult as a, as a young kid being diagnosed with, like, a mental illness because, you know, especially in like the 90s, too. I mean.

Yeah, it wasn't that well known. No. And then especially with your own physiology as a kid, as like a fucking eight-year-old, you're like, you can't voice how you're feeling. I'm not like, hey, I have this trauma from this or that. Like, and this is why I feel this way. It's just like, hey, mom, hey, dad. Like, I feel like I'm about to like. like cease to exist right now.

You know what I mean? So it started really, really early for me, for sure. Yeah. And then was it like progressive? Yeah. It was like,

you know, peaks and valleys, but it definitely started getting worse and worse because it was kind of like, you know, you kind of go through the stages of grief, you know,

when you get a diagnosis of like, you have like a depressive disorder, you have a panic disorder. You're just kind of like try to ignore it for a while. Yeah, like what now? And then you're sort of like angry at yourself like you had any say like I just inherited it. You know what I mean?

Like it's not my fault. And for a lot of years I was like it's my fault that I feel is it hereditary? Is it like familial like passes down? Yeah. There's definitely a lot of like, you know, people say like generational trauma and stuff like things into your biology get passed down as well. Like I recently found out that like my great grandfather like committed suicide. and I obviously didn't know him

and uh but it's just so funny like that wasn't funny but it was like interesting back in the day how like they didn't know anything about suicide or whatever and they were just like we saw the doctor's notes and they were like he went to bed in good spirits and for some reason decided to take his own life and they're like oh it's very interesting it's like bro it's dark it's dark and I do think that yeah like these things get passed down

through generations and so yeah so what I was saying is it just I blamed myself for a lot of it for a long time. It took me a while to just be like, hey, man, like, everyone's born with something. No one's born just 100% great. Everything's working. Everything physically, mentally is working. This is just what I have. And like, these are the cards that I've been dealt and like, how am I going to deal with this and live my life in a fulfilling way? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's an optimistic way to look at it. Yeah. And, you know, it took a long way. It took a long time to get there. You know, like I, I refused to do anything. about it. I refused to, it took, I only got a medication in 2018. Oh, wow. Because I was like,

I don't need that. I don't want that, you know. What about therapy? Yeah, and it was the same, I was the same thing. You know, I kind of would do therapy. I had a really bad experience when I was a young child in therapy. I was a little kid in elementary school having panic attacks, and I went to therapy in the 90s. And, you know, like, I don't know, like, I think you're familiar with therapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I go to therapy every week. Yeah, I watched the pod. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, man. This is therapy, too, for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so it's like, it's like finding a partner or something, finding the right therapist. Right fit is everything. And it takes forever. Takes years. Takes forever. Took me years. Yeah, so, and so now I finally found someone, you know.

And, and, but yeah, just to like surrender, I guess. A lot of people, if they're listening and they're struggling, like, just like get to a point where you, like, you can't do this all yourself. And that was like a toxic mindset I had, you know. I relate to that. Yeah, if anybody's thinking about therapy, the sooner you start trying, the sooner you'll get to some version of it you like. And when you get to a version of it where you feel better after the hour, that's the version you want to come back for where you go, you know what? I feel relieved. And my therapist is like one part coach.

Not just talk about like childhood shit or trauma. We talk about right now, like how I'm dealing with something or how I'm approaching it or what's my strategy. Yeah. Like, or, you know, we get into strategy on like on work stuff, family. How am I dealing with, you know, if I'm locked in heads with my wife on something, we talk about how to approach it a different way to get some progress around something. Like, I don't know, it just feels like it's very progressive to move me forward. life constantly and then sometimes we go back and we like talk about shit that really hurts that is a part of like a healing a long-term healing process because i think we spend the first 18 years of

our life mostly or maybe longer like mostly kind of getting fucked up and getting all kinds of little scars and then we either in continuing bad cycles we learned and we have to kind of go and change each pattern to make it positive. And everybody has different weak spots. Some people it might be physical health. Some people it might be self-esteem. Some people it might be relationships. Some people it might be their, you know, our self-esteem around certain things,

it could be really strong in one area and really weak and really low in another. And we have to look at that and go like, why is my self-esteem around relationships solo. Yeah. Well, I don't know. And then we start working on it. And then we start to see, like, oh, I do that thing. And then you, it's weird.

It's like, it's hard to track because it's so, in real time, you're living your life. And it's so hard to track where your weak spots, like push in on your strong spots and fuck those up. Yeah. But isn't it crazy if you're in therapy or, you know, and they lock in that one moment where you completely just kind of forgotten buried and you're just like, that was like a pinnacle moment that holy shit yeah i totally forgot about that yeah and you're like oh no wonder can't believe that happened yeah yeah it's crazy how we also bury things to protect ourselves

yeah we repress stuff yeah heavy like because the brain like can only handle so much yeah and we have to show up we have to go to work we have to take care of a family like everything like that so yeah you have to live you have to live and if you're in pain you can't you know and that was the old classic uh The Irish male kind of way of dealing with. Just bury it forever and then maybe have a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, just drink it away. Do you drink?

No, I've never drank. Okay. No. So you're like, are you like straight edge? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've never been drunk.

I don't know what that feels like. I always like have my friends describe that to me. Oh. It feels I'm like it. Maybe you feel a little. It's not great. A little happier, a little dizzy. Yeah.

There's like, for me, it's like, drinking's weird because I don't love it. Yeah. But I'm fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see it. Oh, like a good time. Yeah, I can see it. There's like another gear I have. Yeah, yeah.

That you can only reach by. It doesn't weird. That sounds weird, but, um, but also it, it, it does kind of come from a painful place. Yeah. Like, I find that, like, if I was inspired to drink, it's usually because I'm, I'm feeling some pain that I don't want to like deal with. You need some relief. Some form of relief. Yeah. So I don't, and I have a very kind of like,

um, conflicted relationship with alcohol because my dad was an alcoholic, but, and I try not to say that sounding like I'm judging him because I'm not. I've come to like such a good place with like whatever he had to be when he was on this planet was what he was supposed to be. And I was supposed to be his son. So, um, I don't have any judgment on it. But there was real pain there. And I'm not an alcoholic. Yeah. But I have a very conflicted, complex relationship with alcohol because of that idea.

Yeah, totally. It's never something I've done ever once without thinking about like it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's when you know people are kind of getting a little reckless with us when they don't, there's no thought. They're just like, yeah, like, I'm going to drink. It's always been a conversation up here. Yeah, totally.

But like, even if someone's just like, hey, do you want to drink? And I'm like, yeah, there was a whole hour long conversation that happened in one second. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, uh, yeah. But it's just this weird thing. Yeah, no, I feel that. I think, well, I never started drinking. That's interesting because usually people who are struggling with, like, depression or, you know, anxiety.

Like, alcohol is a big one. Yeah, and that's kind of one of the main reasons why I didn't start. because I was like this, the, what are the pros for someone like me who is really struggling growing up? The pros is, you know, I get a brief sort of relief from how I'm feeling. And the cons are potentially a life of just destruction via alcohol, you know, or substances. So I kind of weighed the pros and cons. And like when I was younger and I saw like, all my friends started drinking in high school. and then you know i had extended family too like that really were you know heavily into alcohol and

alcoholics and stuff and i just was like you know the cons far outweighed the pros for my specific circumstances and then i was like well complete abstinence is the way to go for me you know what i mean but i've but like damn dude i have i have like when i'm i'm not like a crazy social guy like i love having conversations and stuff, but if I'm in a room with more than like five people, like 10 people or whatever, like I will shut down and I, and I imagine what a social lubricant alcohol could be. That's one. I know.

So like if I'm ever at like someone's birthday party or something, I'm just in the corner like, dude, they think I'm a doofus right now. Like they're looking at my hands. No, they don't. They don't. I know. But that's like, yeah, that's like my programming, dude, for sure. So it would be cool.

But like, yeah. And now like I'm third. 32 now. It's like, what am I going to start drinking when I'm 32? Yeah, I guess you're right. You're young, though. 32 is young. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm not, yeah, I'm not like one of those guys who like turns 30 and is like, oh, I'm old. You know what I mean? I understand. You've got, 30, 30s is a great age because you've got all this experience. Yeah. And you still have all this youth. Yeah. It's really good. Yeah. I think it's just like right now for me, it's just like continuing with nothing nowhere and like trying to build on what. whatever I did last year.

How do you feel about nothing nowhere today? Yeah, I mean, I feel good about it. It's just, it's in such an interesting place right now because obviously nothing nowhere was a product of the original emo rap boom. Yeah. Which does not exist anymore. Huh. It's not a thing anymore.

Sure, there are like very far fringes of it, you know what I mean, of what it is, but unfortunately, like, well, first of all, we lost a lot of people. Yeah. From addiction. You know what I mean? and that was a whole era in itself. I always looked at you as a singer who raps sometimes. That's what, yeah, yeah.

And I think that's probably why I was never in that scene. I was sort of adjacent to it. You know what I mean? So, yeah, man, I feel stoked about it. Like, it's real interesting. Like, I was on a label for eight years. You know what I mean? And shout out to Fuel by Rahman.

I love all those guys. But right now I'm just so happy to be independent because I'm just, I'm like a kid in the candy store right now. Like I released four full length records last year. Yeah. And that was like, yeah, I was like, why not? You know what I mean? You can just drop whatever you want, whenever you want.

And you get good at it. Exactly. You get the reps in. You know what I mean? Like I produce, I mix, I master, I record, I play every single instrument all in my barn in Vermont. You know what I mean? Yeah, but think about like from when you started all the questions you had waiting to put that record out. And it was like, well, the label says we can do it on this date.

And you're like, oh, thank you. Thank God for giving me a release date. Oh, I feel so lucky. And then you realize now you're sitting there and you're like, I'm going to make a record and drop it whenever I want. Yeah. And I mixed it. And I mastered it.

Yeah. And I know, like on the other side of independence, the scary, I don't even know what's scary about it. You would probably say the same thing to me now. but we worked so hard to get that record deal. We were like, oh, thank you for the record deal. And then you realize, like, I always had the power to do this. Yeah.

It's like someone told me I did it or they made me feel like I didn't know what I was talking about. They convinced you that you didn't. And now, on the other side of dropping four records in one year, you could go run a label. Yeah, yeah. Because you know how the shit works. Yeah. Yeah. So which one would you trade?

Well, I bet you wouldn't trade the year of dropping four records. You'd be like, no, that one's mine. I'm never trading that. I don't even care who fucking listened to the records. Yeah. No one can have that. Yeah.

You'd probably trade the record deal. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? Exactly. That's what I love is when someone, when they have the Matrix moment. Totally. We're like, oh shit.

Yeah. It's like, yeah, like, yeah, it's just interesting. Like, you feel like you need to sign a deal. To be validated. Yeah. To be. like, oh, I did the thing. We're all there.

We've all been there. Yeah. And it's not like you're never going to work with the label again. It's going to be on your terms because you're the label. Exactly. And so it just becomes a different conversation with the guy who has answers. Yeah. And there's always this thing like, you know, I'd be, I'd finish a record.

I work on a record. And then the record would come out like a year and a half, two years after it's like done. And then you're like, I don't even like that anymore. I'm not even on that anymore. You know what I mean? So the refreshing thing for me is. is like whatever people are hearing, it's like what I'm on right now.

You know what I mean? It's a true representation of where we are in time. You know what I mean? And it's been a blast, man. It's cool. Like I kind of just like, like we were talking about at the beginning of this,

like the fear being perceived. Like I kind of dropped my guard and like I'm just like, this is what I'm doing. Like take it or leave it. I'm like on Instagram doing like, emo covers of All Star by Smash. I was going to say one of my favorite things you've done

is will it emo. Yeah, thanks, man. That's what it's called, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. Dude, thank you. I love it.

Yeah, thanks, man. I'm jealous. Yo, we should get you guys on for a one. When I see you do that, I'm always like, oh, you did that song. It's really good. Yeah, man. It's like, yeah, and I would have never, if I were to time travel and see me 10 years ago when I started Nothing Nowhere, the faceless guy, never ever.

I would have like, hell no, I'm not doing that. But now it's like, you know, unfortunately, like, I'm really honest. honest about the process and stuff. Like I nothing nowhere is my passion and art is my passion, but it's also my career. It's my job. It's my soul. It's my sole reason that's it's going to buy my chickens food. You know what I mean? And I'm not going to be the guy that's like, fuck TikTok, fuck social media. Like me either. I yeah, like it's like dude like either I'm, my chickens are eating or they're not. And I want to do it in it. But you can do it in an authentic way to yourself, like have fun with it. And will it email for me. I was like, I've gained

more followers in the past month than I have the past seven years because I finally was like, I let go and I was like, I'm just going to have fun. It's great. And that's it, you know, and it's been fun. It's been fun. Dude, it's awesome. This is my will at email. Yeah, yeah, dude.

And it rocks. Like finding a way to do something that you love with people you like to participate in a landscape of opportunity and variety, right? It's just like it's a rabbit hole after rabbit hole on every platform. We've watched over the last over the years where like you go, I wonder how I could participate in a way that I feel is like I want to. Right. It's like who you are.

And then you find something that you enjoy doing and then you can do it. That's sustainable to do something you love. Yeah. And you get to participate a little bit. You know, like I don't know if I'll ever have a reality show. but I like to make stuff. I do a tattoo show. I love that show.

I love that show. It's so fun. Dude, I love Ink Masters. It's so fun to watch. I can't imagine what it's like to make it. That's the thing is like that's why it's fun to watch. There's a real spirit on set. They're really in a competition.

They're really there for the whole time. It's really hard for them. And it's like we love tattoos and we all like and we all get along. Yeah. And some of it. it is intense and some of it's fun and sometimes we're joking and sometimes we're not but like it's just fun yeah dude my palms are sweating just thinking about that show like when like when like dude when canvases tap out or something or they're just like oh yeah dude i want this insane

unrealistic thing like on my ribs on my ribs and it's gonna take 17 hours did you see the butt tattoo nah on the last this last season this girl got a terrible like idea on her butt. The artist was actually really good. Yeah. And she did a good job. But it was the wrong tattoo at the wrong time. Yeah.

On the wrong butt. I think so. I'm not criticizing someone's ass. Yeah. Like it was just like, wrong everything. Oh, a perfect storm of like, yeah.

In a world of great tattoos, it didn't make the cut. If you saw it, you'd still say that's a good tattoo. Right. So it wasn't a bad tattoo. But in the, upper echelon of all the other tattoos.

She got, she got a bad hand. Yeah, dude. That must be so fun doing that. It's really fun. Yeah. You have a lot of tattoos. Yeah, dude. I love tattoos.

Obviously, that's why I watched the show too. But like, it'd be fun to just sit there and be like, man, that tattoos jacked up, brother. Yeah. Tattoes jacked up. No, I feel like I'd be the judge. You'd be like, you know what? Did you have fun? As long as you had fun.

That's why I couldn't be. But there's a lot of that. when you hear the comments you only hear like one line yeah we'll do 45 minutes on one tattoo and we're all pointing out things that like are wrong with it and we're like saying a lot of good stuff too and they only have so much time with each tattoo that it's like bang bang bang bang so you miss a lot of like love they got to bring the drama though yeah they have some drama yeah and then they walk back to everyone else and there's like real tears and real yeah it's hard yeah i can never be a tattoo artist. I'd be too afraid. I would love to learn how the tattoo. They'd be sick. So how long have you been

independent? I've been independent. Well, I guess last year was my first year being independent. Yeah. What would you say the biggest win has been over the last two years? For me, it's just like, the biggest win for me was just like letting, like we were saying like letting go and just like not being afraid to like be perceived as like if whatever I think is cringe or whatever. Like I've, like I said, finally hit the algorithms on the social media and stuff. And I never did that with a label. Right. I never, ever had viral videos when I was on,

now that I'm doing it myself in my barn, filming it, editing it, one-man show. Everything's going viral. And I think this is the biggest win in general is like having a community of fans that we call the cult of the Reaper, like all of them like supporting me no matter what I do. I released four records last year. Every single record is a different genre.

One's an emo country album. Another one's just straight up like emo, post-hardcore. Yeah, one of them's like indie. And it doesn't matter what I do. Like I know I have a community that I've created that is there to stick with me. You know what I mean? And I think that's something that a label could never manufacture, especially nowadays. Like you have to, artists have to put in the work themselves.

They have to connect directly. Like I'm on Twitch all week trying to connect with them. You know what I mean? I'm doing the work. So you do Twitch? Yeah. What's the Twitch channel? It's called, it's just nothing X nowhere.

And like we like, so I'll stream me making music and do production breakdowns. And like when I do the Will at Emo's every week, I stream me like filming like recording the whole process. It's been fun, dude. And it's like I can't. It's weird that to me that more bands don't do that, you know? Well, I don't think they know how, dude. I think we have this idea of how things work and it's not true. Yeah.

They think like, oh, you need a label, then you need to make a record, and then somebody puts together a release plan and then this and that. And I think, you know, at the core, that is functionally one thing that does happen. Yeah. But the day to day of running your own shop, if you look at it that way, well, then what do I do in my shop? Yeah. I make records. That's the big thing.

Those take a while. Then I got to put it out. So how do I do that? Well, I got to figure that out. And then I got to do a tour. Okay. over the timeline, these are the big ticket items, record tour, promotion of both. But what do I do in my shop every day?

Yeah. That's what I notice you do. Yeah. So you, which is maybe like maybe there's something about moving to Vermont. Maybe there's something about creating your own world. It's kind of like you said, you came in here and you say, I like this place every time I come here. This is our shop. Yeah.

So we're work, we're like tinkering. Yeah. And then some stuff, we're like, And not ready yet. Oh, this is cool. We should keep working on this. Yeah. And we just like, we develop our own way.

Yeah. And our own things. And then they become things. Yeah. Like this show was an idea for years. And then we try to figure it out. And then we're like, how? And then over time, we keep trying.

And then, oh, we have our idea now. This is how we'll do it. And we'll do this. And then, okay, now we need to see who wants to do it. And then we reach out to our little circle. Idris will do it or this Chase Atlantic Boys will do it like people will come and then it just starts to become something but it's this like like you said your community is like your fans they're also like your peers so it's not just fans it's like other artists yeah people who draw people who do

this and everyone's just talking all the time yeah reaching out to you and it's like this whole ecosystem that just starts to kind of grow none of it's perfect it's like always kind of like wonky and wild and chaotic. Yeah. But at the core is your shop. Yeah. And you're just like hammering away. Yeah.

Making a video. Doing a this. Every day. And then you did something like that someone liked. And then you're like, I'll do that again. And then before you know it, you're like cooking stuff. Cooking. Yeah.

It's crazy. And just being relentless. Being like, I know I have so many friends that are like, man, I just can't get this social media thing figured out. Or I'm like, how many videos did you post? They're like, posted one last month. It was like, you posted one. last month, you should be posting like try like five a day. Within two weeks that they posted every day, they'd know way more about who they are. And you could be like a cool guy and just be

like, I don't want to do this. And it's like, but that's fine. It definitely works for some people. Yeah. I mean, you can do push like push marketing or pull marketing. But it's like if you want more people to hear your stuff in 2025, you got to put yourself out there. That's the reality of it. 100%. I figured out with Instagram, I post these videos. Yeah. And like occasionally something for some band we, an MDDN band or a friend or whatever. Yeah. But it's all music, mostly music.

And like, that's just who I am on Instagram. And it like makes sense to me. And it's, so therefore it's easy for me to sustain. Yeah. It's not work for me. I mean, it's work, but it's not like painful for me to put it out. Like I don't know. Once you find your thing, you're like putting it out and you're fine.

You're in the flow state. You're proud of it. You're just like, cool. I think, yeah, like you were saying earlier too, like, I think the main thing is, like, for people who are like artists and stuff is no one's going to do it for you. No. No one is going to, no one's going to magically pull up. There's no one.

I got you this, this opportunity and we're going to sit you down. You're going to do this. It's like it has to all come from you. Like bippity boppity boo. Yeah. It's not going to happen, dude. Boop. It's like, it's dude, it's like people have like the, like, what are people's attention spans

now? You know what I mean? Like, you have to convince people to care about what you're doing. Also, don't worry about cringe. Don't. Dude, people are literally taking a shit watching that. Yeah, dude. Don't worry.

Dude, like, come on, dude. It's like, bro, you make emo music. You're cringe already. Yeah, like everybody is, by the way. Yeah, you're cringe. Like, who cares? You know what I mean? Like, you got to zoom out and realize that you have a finite.

amount of time on this planet. And are you really worried about just some random guy taking a shit on Instagram real saying that you suck? Yeah, like I think about this. I'm like, am I, am I lame? Or are you lame for watching this? I don't think I am. Yeah.

It's whatever, man. It's the peanut gallery, dude. It's like, we're just, we're the ones creating stuff. And if you create stuff, you inherently invite just the fucking everyone, like from all parts of the world. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's weird out there.

And then it just. becomes funny once you're just like dude this is like someone will send like a crazy comment and you're just like showing your homies like this is so funny like yeah this guy says that i should die because i made an emo cover i'm like this is hilarious whereas like if you're like new to it you're like oh my god you know should i die yeah or should you i just always think that anytime anyone says anything i always kind of just like i've gotten to this place where i don't take it personally i just kind of like Like, I feel like people project. Yeah.

And so I feel like they're talking about themselves when they come at me. And so then I feel like it's all I see. I can't help myself when someone comes at me and they're like with everything. And every now and then someone will really come at you and you're like, whoa. Yeah, you had a bad day. Calm down. I don't know who you are, but I can't help but hear them like just talking to themselves in the mirror or something. Yeah, I love when people talk to themselves in my deal.

It's awesome. You know what I mean? I'm like, what are they saying to themselves now? Yeah, what are you saying? What about the new record? Yeah,

I don't know what I'm doing right now. What I'm doing right now is basically like I'm taking, because I just came off the back of like four albums, right? A lot. A lot of productivity last year. Yeah, like I did like, I released like 60 songs last year.

Prolific. Yeah, it was a lot. So I think this year like I'm going to drop a sing. soon and uh do you have it already no okay so i'm out here that's cool are you working on it yeah i'm out here like working on a single just because i spent all last year in my barn by myself and i was like you know what a little collaboration with do me do you go back out into the world yeah it's a different vibe you know i think i tapped into everything i could for that past year in vermont you know

so i'm out here doing that and then uh yeah i'm starting tour at the end of april i think the first show was like April 29th in Toronto. And then we're, the tour ends in Boston, like May 31st. So how do you, like what's the set list like on the tour? Is it like all the things that you've like,

you've seen that people like? Is it some covers? Is it like everything mished together? Yeah. It's a nightmare, honestly. Because as we're taping this right now, like right before I came here,

I was just like in my like hotel bed, just like still trying to figure out the set list. Because I released 60 songs last year. And this tour is also called A Decade of Darkness, The Return of the Reaper, so it's 10 years and nothing nowhere. Wow.

So I also have to play... Congratulations. Thank you. I also have to play, you know, the classics as well. And it's like, you can only play so many songs

in night. So it's just like, some people will be stoked, maybe some people will be a little bummed, but I work on making the best set list of the songs that I know will sound the best in a venue.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Some songs are just vibers and they like maybe wouldn't translate, you know? Yeah. I just try and,

crank the speakers and just picture myself in a venue we're the same i mean we're trying to figure out what our set like we want to play all the hits it will every one of your songs is a hit though that's kind of the issue with good charlie that's very nice because because when you're not true no but when when you took us on tour uh i don't know maybe it was like 2018 or something but we were we were in europe in uk in europe yeah it was cold too yeah it was freezing yeah and uh you know i'd watch your set And then, you know, you'd play like lifestyles and you play the anthem and you keep going and you're like, oh my God, this one too, this one too, you know what I mean? You're like being nice. No, I'm serious, bro.

Like it helps. You know what I mean? But like, you know, I don't know. But we want to do maybe like some covers. We want to throw some stuff in. We love playing all of our songs. I don't mind any one of our songs. I'll play anything.

Yeah. I really do. Like, but we're also like what should we throw in there? Like, yeah, like some deep cuts. I don't know. Like, yeah, because like your hardcore fans will be like, I want to hear the stuff you did to like an eight track in your parents' basement. The forgotten demos.

And then you play it live and like everyone just staring at you. What is this? Gravity girl. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Gravity girl. Yeah.

It's hard, dude. Making a set list is, I think what matters most is just bringing the energy in. And you going out there and like actually just loving your set. Yeah. You're going to put on the best show. Yeah. What are you the most excited about when you think about the last 10 years? I guess you could say, like, I guess two questions.

When I think about 10 years as an accomplishment, and I have to say, personally, when I sit with you, from where you started to now, I think you have really developed into a great version of what someone can do here in this kind of world and business and music. It's very hard to survive. It's very hard to make your way. How many people were around that aren't anymore for lots of different reasons,

some horrible reasons, some people just said, fuck this, I need peace, I'm going to go. All of that to say, like, when I sit with you, it gives me, like, relief. Yeah, yeah. To see someone that's traversed 10 years is still working for their dreams and their goals.

And I know the mountain you want to climb and the mountain you're climbing. I know what that entails. And so you have my respect and everybody's respect. But to see you now, I'm like relieved and happy. And I go, oh, like another one made it. Yeah. To the part of the journey that actually,

where you're going to do your best work. Yeah. So you have that 10 years. You could say, what are you proud of? And then the next kind of chapter of your career, like, what are you excited about the most inspired to do, the most excited to see what comes? I'm gonna, and like my music,

my hair can't change with me and has to be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian Professional, has all what my hair needs. Nutrition profound. Protection contraption against the encresped. 99% less of rotura and puntas abirtas, Bajo Control. New Poetion Nine

of Sebastian Professional, the secret professional, of who don't see tendencies, but of who

they're not who they're not doing. Everything is perspective and like, like I'm by no means

a household name whatsoever, you know what I mean? I'm just like a mid-tier artist and I've been grinding for 10 years and I continue to grind

and I think that it's a miracle it's not a miracle because I worked really hard, I will say. It's not a miracle. It's just I worked really hard and to be at a place where I can pay my bills with music is like a blessing. You know what I

mean? And that is like that is what I set out to do. And if I could do this as long as I can, if I can play my guitar and sing my songs and feed my chickens via that, you know what I mean? That is something really special and important to me. I'm not, I'm not here to like try and be like the next Justin Bieber or anything. You know what I mean? I just I just want to make art that that's real and true to me and continue to have a career and not have to get my real estate license 10 years from now or something, you know? Like no shade to anyone who's had to do that,

you know what I mean? No, that's not what you wanna do. It's not what I wanna do. You know, it's like this is what, this is the only thing I can do. And I can't imagine trying to make a living any other way. I know what you're trying to say, when you say get your real estate license.

It's working for anything else or anyone else, because you have to, versus working for yourself and doing what you want, which is freedom. Freedom. Yeah. It's amazing when people can work for someone else doing something they love and they get to be a part of a job or a company that they love being a part of.

Yeah. Artists tend to be loners and solo, dolo people. They just wanna like build out their own little Disneyland's. And that's what you're doing. You're building out your world. And I think also, by the time you're my age, which is another 14 years, just think about that. Like you have all this time to build your legacy and you're going to discover your capabilities.

Think about your capabilities from 10 years ago to now. If someone came to you and said, hey, I want to make a record and I want to put it out and I'm thinking about doing this. Can you tell me how you could? Yeah. You could. Yeah, because you know how to fish. Yeah, yeah.

And you know how to hunt. and you know how to plant things and grow them. That's how I see the landscape. I always think of it in terms of like this organic way of life. Right. We know how to grow things. We know how to build things. It's all just an evolved version of that.

I can go and chop a tree down and make boards and build something. Yeah. We're just living in Minecraft. Right. Yeah. That's how I see it. And I'm Steve. But when I started, I didn't know how any of it worked. Yeah.

And it was overwhelming to think about. I'm not overwhelmed by anything now. Yeah. And it comes to like music and putting records out. Yeah, you get in the studio and you're like, yeah, this is what I do. Or getting a tour, planning a tour, that's what I do. Building a touring career. Yeah.

The generosity or the right thing, this is my form of veganism. Yeah. Is tell people how to do it as soon as you can. As soon as you can. And not be a gatekeeper. Yeah. And withhold information so they have to give you a piece. Yes.

Doesn't mean we all can't work together. We all can't have calm. commerce together, but don't take advantage of each other. Yeah. Share. Everyone will eat if everyone is cooking and planting and growing and does it, like this is a business. We have, we have all these different commercial aspects of our lives. Yeah. So we're going to make records and tour and sell products and do things, but people are going to buy them if they don't want them. Yeah. So I'm not tricking anyone. You can't trick people. You have to make things that you love and then share them and the world will

consume them as your people start to find their way. If you have a great shop and you're making this great stuff, it's like a restaurant. If you have like a taco stand and your tacos are just so delicious and they're made with love, people come back and they come back. Because you make those things with love and you got to grow that slowly so the recipe didn't get fucked up. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of what a career is. It's like just figure out your recipe and they hone in on that. Because the thing that makes you the happiest is sharing it. Yeah, absolutely. I love like looking at people's reaction when you show them a demo for the first time. But in order to keep the shop open, there's got to be some commerce. You can't just give the tacos away. So you have to figure that part out. Then you got to figure, you know, and there's, so there's this really organic nature of like what we do that's just like a great experience or shop or anything else people can experience that like artists have to get comfortable with what that even means. Because we feel bad charging people.

to sing for them. Yeah. It's just in our nature. Like we, we just don't feel comfortable. We have to get comfortable with the idea that, like, we need to survive. And then we need to, like, learn how that works and find the balances of it. And I think it takes the first 10 years of your career just to wrap your head around all of it.

Yeah, I feel like I'm just starting. Yeah. I guess I'm at 10 years now. I'm like, damn, I actually feel like I'm just starting. It's so bizarre. You know what I mean? And to know that I've, that I've grinded it out, like to hear, like, I've never had a hit.

You know what I mean? I think that's just a testament to, like, having a core cult fan base. Like, I've never had a hit. I've never charted. I've never, you know, X, Y, and Z. But you can sell out of a show. Yeah, exactly.

Very hard to do. Exactly. And it's just like, I just want to, like, I want, you know, younger artists to know that too. It's like, you don't need to have a smash hit. You don't have to, like, just find a core group of people who believe in what you do.

Keep growing that family. and there's your music career. You know what I mean? And take care of each other. Like that's the thing is like your fans will take care of you if you take care of them. Totally.

And it's this, it's this relationship that is like very real. It's hard to explain. It's like you can disagree too. Like they don't have to love every record. But you can really like build a group that. Yeah.

Depends on each other for different things. But when I was thinking about talking to you, I really wanted to like share what I thought about where I think you are now, how cool I think it is, and like how nice it is to see the arc. Because you're in, you're just entering your prime. You're going to make your best music these next 10 years. You're going to.

I promise you. Like, you're entering like your zone. And it's been these last 10 years that I'm sure at times felt confusing. They felt like a struggle. Yeah. But it's all because of that that you're entering the zone you're in now. And I think that it's really inspiring. and important for people to see like no no no there's no one way to have a career there's not and

everyone's different that's such an important point yeah like and people get especially now because all the statistics are right there in front of your face how many monthly listeners do you have you know how many like yeah you know what I mean how many followers do you have and it's all right there and like and that could really that could really hinder your belief your self-belief you know what I mean as someone who's been self-conscious about like everything I ever do like over the years I've gotten to points where it's like oh man like right now like i have a million monthly listeners like to me like that's so cool but then like i'll have moments so i'll be like well that's big well this guy has five million you know what i mean but then i have homies back home that are in like local punk bands who get

like 500 monthly listeners and they're like stoked on that and i'm like everything's perspective and numbers really don't mean anything so long as you build that core fan base so long as you're doing right by other people you know what i mean numbers are just like markers i know you see where you're at Yeah. And see what affects what. But I follow you so I know all the stuff you do. Yeah. I've just enjoyed it more.

Hell yeah. Like the emo stuff has been really refreshing. Hell yeah. Just in general in the landscape. It's like nice to see that. It's feel good. It makes me feel good. It like I really enjoy it.

I'm always excited to see like what you'll do next. What's the next one? Yeah. Yeah. That was a fluke, dude. I was like, I had no idea it was going to happen. How many have you done now? Like six.

Yeah. I'm doing it for six weeks. What's the biggest one? It's the biggest. All Star. A Smashmouth is like a big one that happy by Farrell's. Yeah. A big one.

Both of them have like two point something million views. And are they on Spotify as well? They all star is now. I just keep making the full versions as they go. I think Hot to Go we're adding on Friday. But I have a playlist on Spotify and they're just all keep adding it to it. Yeah. What's the main page people can watch those at?

It's just nothing nowhere on on everything. On Instagram, TikTok. On Instagram and TikTok. Okay. Spotify, just nothing nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a trip.

It's been a wild couple months. Good shit, man. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Dude, thanks for having me. Is there anything else you want to talk about? No, dude. Pull up to the tour.

Yeah, we're going on tour. April and should be fun. U.S.? U.S. We're hitting Toronto. Oh, great. That's about it. But yeah, that'll be fun.

Awesome, bro. Yeah, thank you, man. Thanks, dude. Awesome. Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram at Artist.Friendly.

And you can watch us on YouTube and Veeps. Leave comments. I always read them. See you next time.