Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Royal & the Serpent

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Royal & the Serpent joins Joel Madden on the latest episode of Artist Friendly. The last couple of years have been massive for Royal. From collaborating with Sleeping With Sirens on Complete Collapse, to touring with Fall Out Boy and Demi Lovato (as well as appearing on HOLY FVCK), she’s also been sharing plenty of her own music. This year, she followed up her heady Happiness Is An Inside Job EP with a series of dual singles, dubbed the RAT TRAP saga. If anything, Royal is always in motion, particularly as she prepares to head out on her first-ever headline tour, kicking off 10/14 in Phoenix. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Video Editor: Ryan Schaefer Sound Engineer/Audio Production: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Social Media: Sarah Madden Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Anthony Lauletta, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking to Ryan San Diego of Royal and the Serpent. Let's go. You know how you have to write, like, a bio for your album cycles? Yeah. So, like, and anyone listening, a lot of times when you're putting a record out, every record cycle, you need, like, a new bio. So they're like, we need a bio writer.

So you sit with someone and they interview. you and then they like write up a bio. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, okay, cool. I can live with that bio. Yeah. I feel like that's how Wikipedia should be. And it's just basically any article on the internet that anyone's ever written becomes like true.

And it's just in there? And then they can just put it in the Wikipedia. Like, who's in charge? I don't know. That's the thing. And I just think, is there a professional Wikipedia writers that you could have go and just like write up a real, like put some real. information in there and like they are but it's i think it's by like a or i think it's like people who

know how to use the internet okay that's we got to figure that out and i don't know how to use the internet i haven't got that far i'm and i'm a lot older than you and i'm truly like a dad on the internet i'm like you truly are a dad i am a dad you are a dad i have teenagers so when i go on the internet it's like reading glasses, Google. That's good. That is me on the internet. I'm terrible on the internet. Really?

I'm not a good internet. You're good at posting. Does somebody else do that for you? No, I do it. You do it. You do great. But posting where, though? Because I don't have a TikTok.

That's okay. And I get sent clips from TikTok and I can't watch them because I don't have a TikTok. And my kids make fun of me because... You need to get you a TikTok? Yeah, I just don't know. The podcast would do great on there. The podcast is on TikTok, I think. Okay, just you personally is not.

I'm not. But you're not in charge of the Instagram. But I do my own Twitter. There you go. Which is very sporadic. Yeah. And I do my own Instagram. Yeah.

Instagram's great. And it's tiring, though. Yeah. Like I post the podcast clips on my Instagram. It's very tiring. It takes like 30 minutes. Oh, for sure. It's a whole thing.

It's terrible. Yeah. So your Wikipedia says you're from New Jersey. That's true. Can confirm. Born and raised? A New Jersey native. Yeah.

Ryan Santiago. That's my full name. And is that public information? I guess it is public information. I suppose, yeah. Yeah. Born May 25th, 1994. That's true. I was born in 1979.

Really? Yeah. Wow. 70s. Cool. Yeah, it's cool. The year disco died. Yeah.

79. There was good music back then. Yeah, there was. Not that there's not now, but there was. You were raised both Catholic and Jewish. How does it know that? Who told it that? I don't know.

Is that true? Yeah. Wow. How's that work? My pop-pop was Jewish, and so my mom, but my grandma was not, so my mom was both. Okay. So we just kind of celebrated both holidays. That's good.

Yeah. It worked. I like it now because I feel like I can light the Hanukkah candles, teach my friends how to do that. I love that. And everyone, I feel like everyone celebrates Christmas anyways. Yeah. Not everyone, but whether you're religious or not, most people do. It's forced on you regardless. Whether you celebrate it or not, in December, you're celebrating Christmas. For sure. You took up competitive dance as a child. Yeah, very intensely. Until you shattered both your heel plates. I know all these things. Yes. That's devastating. It was tough, but I would have never gotten into music if I didn't get hurt like that. And I'm much happier, I think, in the long run making music than being a dancer. And the dancing probably helped. For sure.

And it was like dance in theater. So I already was doing musical numbers and stuff. You got comfortable. Yeah, I mean, I got comfortable on stage at a very young age, yeah. Then you learned how to play guitar and you began writing songs in your teenage years. That's true. you attended your first concert on the Oops I Did It Again tour at the age of six. Yeah.

That's a great first concert. I was front row and I didn't know where I was. My mom surprised me. I love the story. And all of a sudden, Flame started shooting from the edge of the stage and I just started crying because I thought she was taking me to like put me in some fire. Yeah. And then Brittany came out like from this thing.

Are you still a fan? Yeah. I mean, all this stuff that's been going on lately have to worry a little. but love her. That's separate, though, from the music. Oh, for sure. You know, she's incredible. My wife is the biggest Britney fan, and I think she separates it.

But she also stands by Brittany, thick and thin. Yeah, she's amazing. True icon. She definitely has people out there who love her and stand by her, which is the power of music. At the age of 18, you moved to Los Angeles. I did. Or you attended art school and you worked as a bartender. I did.

Wow. Well, I didn't work as a bartender until I was old enough to bartend. And I was only in school for maybe a year before I dropped out. And then you started making music. And would Royal and the Serpent be the beginning? Was that the beginning or is this, is that, let's get into Royal and the Serpent. Okay. So I was always kind of.

So the Wikipedia is at least half, right? It's pretty good. It's actually, there's a lot here. I'm not going to go on from it, but it's nice to know that they got the beginnings of your life summed up enough. The Catholic and Jewish thing is wild to me that it knows that. That's a detail. That's deep. I don't like talk about that.

And very personal. That's what I mean. Yeah. It's very interesting. But yeah, I always kind of wrote songs in my bedroom, didn't think anything of it. I just was super content being a server and a bartender. at a young age, I had a fun time doing that. And it wasn't until I started bartending with one of my buds, and he heard me sing.

They have a great voice. Thank you. Yeah. And he was like, you should do something with that. I used to manage acts in college. I'll be your manager. Great. And I was like, sick.

Yeah. So we just started meeting once a week. We'd write little goals in our journals. I started doing open mics, just as Ryan Santiago. ago. And I think it was like two years later, I was signed to Atlantic. Wow. Like, it happened pretty fast. That's from that point. That's pretty quick. Yeah. Yeah. We just put our heads down and did it. But it's not like once you get signed, it just suddenly gets easier. It almost gets harder. Yeah. Definitely harder. I was very lucky, though.

One of my first releases on Atlantic was overwhelmed. Yeah. Which came out at a time that I think people really resonated with it. Yeah. So they've kept me around. Yeah. Well. I'm happy. happy about. Well, you're good. Thank you. Yeah. When we were starting out, I think it was harder to find a way in versus now I think people can get their music out there. It's easier to record and stuff than it used, you know, in the 90s we were like, we have to find a studio and then we have to deal with some weird guy who owns it. Now you can kind of find someone who can record on their computer and their bedroom.

Yeah. But then breaking through now, I think the noise is way harder. There's a lot. Than we had it. There's a lot. Yeah. I do have to say this has nothing to do with what we're saying, but you guys were my favorite band growing up.

We were? Yeah. Oh, I got it. No. And I just, yeah, I just had to say that. Thank you. Yeah. Big fan.

I'm embarrassed. Don't be. Yeah. Why? I mean, that's a huge compliment. I, yeah, loved you guys. My cousin showed me. He was two years older than me.

Wow. I got all my music from him. Which album was the first one? Second album? Probably. Yeah, young and hopeless. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah. New Jersey was kind of like a big area for us. Yeah. New York and New Jersey. I was young, man, but I loved it. And were you always into like tattoos and like rock music and stuff? Yes and no.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I guess I started getting tattoos at a pretty young age, like 17. Yeah. That's kind of interesting. young. Yeah. Yeah, I kind of like all music though. Yeah, I wouldn't even say like exclusively rock. Yeah, me either. You know? I love it all. Yeah, I was never in a box with what I liked. I actually like always loved hip hop probably more. We just happened to be in like a band that was kind of labeled

in the punk-ish, adjacent, you know, world. But I don't know if we ever. felt like we were, we were that. I think we were always like trying to do everything. It's weird feeling like you're in a box. Yeah. And I feel that way a lot where I feel like I'm trying to figure out who I am so I can like fit in this image that I'm creating of myself so that people understand it. Does that make sense? Yeah. What would you say people think you are? I don't know. I think it depends on maybe when you started listening to me. Kind of toured with every different kind of thing.

Yeah. I would just say you're kind of just like alternative. That's kind of the vibe. Even though now I feel like people don't classify music and genres. I still kind of do. Yeah. I would say you're alternative. Thanks.

Which is broad. Yeah. Because you could do like popular stuff, but then you could also do like much head. heavier stuff. You could sing on hip hop. You could do a lot of different things. I always wanted to do heavy stuff really bad. And every time I try, just.

You haven't gotten it right yet. No. But you work with Zach. Well, yeah. He's amazing. Like the heavy king. Yeah. We do some cool grunge stuff together.

Yeah. I love grunge. So when did your first album come out? I put my first EP out probably 2020. Yeah. And I think I've done three since then. And I haven't done a full length ever. Oh, really?

Mm-mm. I was going to do one this year, but I decided to... Mm-hmm. I know. It's my dream to, like, do it up on, like, a mountain in a house, tucked away and, like, write the whole thing front to back. Right. With the same people, like, the old school classic way.

Yeah, yeah. Go away. But it's hard to make that happen. Yeah, it is. You know, especially now when it's just session every day. Yeah. New people. New place. Yeah, it's hard to kind of...

to think about like three months away getting all the people that you want to be there. And then if you go there, because I was just talking to Chase Atlantic about this because they went away with that same idea. And then there was like, it was terrible weather. They went somewhere where it was snowy. Oh, wow. Then it didn't know it was going to be heavy snow. And then there was it it it wasn't quite I think what that same idea is like let's go away and like rent get a house somewhere far far far away. And then if stuff goes wrong and you don't get what you want out of it, you're kind of like, God damn.

Spend all this time and money. Yeah, time, money. I don't think it's worth, I think it's always worth doing. Yeah. Even if you don't get what you want out of it, I feel like maybe life takes you somewhere where you're supposed to be. for other reasons and you're just there. But it is not, it's, it isn't like, it's very romantic idea. But even when we used to do that, it was, it didn't work like we thought it would work

when we thought about like incubus. They went to this house and they made Morning View. And it was like, that sounds so amazing. We tried to do it too. And it never worked like we thought it would work. And we were like, let's go back to L.A. and rent an RG. It's good to know that it's not how I maybe see.

Yeah. I'd like to at some point in my life. It's also hard like touring stuff, things. There's always somewhere to be. Yeah. You know? The modern career is different than just make a record, go on tour. Now you're almost kind of have to like incorporate it into like your everyday life.

For sure. It's a different time. Yeah. And like the social aspect. Because that didn't exist too. we were making records. We didn't have to think about promoting things. Like now I think the modern artist has to promote all the time. All the time. Otherwise you get forgotten. Yeah. They're like, why aren't you posting? We didn't have to think about that in the 2000s. We were like,

okay, now we're going to spend four weeks making this record and we didn't talk to anyone. And how does stuff break through then? Like, who's in charge of it breaking through and being like these artists are up next if it's not like them promoting themselves? Well, that's the thing. I think now it's tougher in some ways, but the real, like, the people who are willing to, like, work hard breakthrough. Right. And back then, I think in the 90s and in the 2000s, I think we were at the mercy of, like, the idea of the record label now is different than it was then.

Like, then you were kind of, you'd take the record in and you'd go, you'd play the songs for them. And now I think artists aren't thinking like, oh, I got to get, my A and R to sign off on this. The artists are like, I'm just going to drop this. And if the label doesn't want me to do it, a lot of them are just doing it anyways. Yeah. So I think it's a different time.

I think everyone just collectively behaves different than they used to. But yeah, back then it felt like, God, you were really at the mercy of like the people in charge, I guess, which created like a bit of like an angsty opposite. which I don't think needs to exist. And now I feel like it doesn't exist as much. I mean, I feel sometimes people are like, oh, my label won't let me release it. But most starters are like, what do you mean?

You know? Yeah. Well, if you can get something to go on your own, a label can't really say much. I mean, that's kind of what happened with us. I remember when we put overwhelmed out, it was my first release on the label. So they weren't about to put a bunch of marketing money behind it. And me, my manager, my mom were all like, let's all put money in. try and get a TikTok campaign going.

And it worked. Yeah. The label was like, holy shit, good job, guys. Here's your money back and here's some more. Yeah. You got to like do it yourself. That's what I kind of say to artists too is like put 30 seconds of the song on TikTok. You'll know right away.

Yeah. You'll know how people feel about it. Exactly. The people are kind of in charge, which is nice. Yeah. You know. It does democratize it, doesn't it? Yeah, for sure.

Which is great. But then there's the sheer amount of traffic. now versus then is totally different. Totally. Scrolling through my TikTok is just people promoting music. Yeah. And it's wild. There's so much out there.

So much. Yeah. It's overwhelming. Maybe that's why I don't have a TikTok. Yeah. It's a lot. Because I find myself sometimes even on Instagram, because that's usually where I discovered music.

But I've found some amazing artists on Instagram that we even, like some we even work with now. Oh, cool. About 45 minutes of that of looking, I feel fried. My brain feels like mush. Because you also see a bunch of stuff you don't want to see. 100%. You just see dumb stuff where you're like, why do I know that now?

Or why did I watch that video? Yeah. And you're just like, oh, my God. Oversaturated. Yeah, it is. But that being said, great opportunity. But also, man, I could not imagine having to like, breakthrough as an artist now. I just like get overwhelmed by it. And I do think though that yet like

the younger generation just speaks the language like fluently. Yeah. And probably better at me at self-regulating like totally. And they grew up on these apps I think. So they're more used to already just being on them constantly and and more comfortable with posting themselves and everything. There's like a learning curve to it. But I think if you grew up with it, Yeah. You've got to be used to it. Yeah. When in doubt, though, I always say, like, don't say anything.

Social media. Yeah. Don't say anything. Don't say it. If you have any doubt. My rule is try to, like, keep any of my thoughts to inspiration. Yeah. Encouragement.

Or self-deprecation. But no commenting on anyone else's. Oh. comments or thoughts or lives. I just stay away from it. Even though sometimes I'll get the notion, I'm going to, that's wrong. I'm going to say something.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. There's already a tidal wave happening. I can see it. Yeah. I want to get caught up in that. It's definitely wild what people are comfortable saying in the comment section. It's a whole different world. Yeah.

It's hard. I actually just saw someone post on like a close friends thing to do. asking for help because they started getting a bunch of hate comments on one of their something that was going viral. And I think it's like this thing as an artist that you can't really ever be prepared for when it starts happening. And it takes a little while to get used to and like learn how to ignore it. The hate.

Yeah. Yeah. The hate. I always wonder though if there's like, an amount that has to be there. You know what I mean? Like there's a quota, like I hate quota. And I almost wonder if the algorithms are like designed to like,

I was reading about video games and games and the algorithms in games that they allow us to win a certain amount to keep us playing. Wow. And to lose a certain amount to keep us playing. and then it finds our, it finds our levels, right? And they're really smart. So we play games and we find ourselves getting sucked into a game. And it's allowing us to win at the level we need to win to keep playing.

And it's really smart. And I wonder if the algorithms and what we see in feeds is dialed to how much good we need to see and how much bad we need to see? And then does it change based on our behavior? It's very interesting. Like it pushes it to people that it knows will hate what we're doing. And based on like maybe like what they comment on and what, I think likely there's some, there's some learning there, right? Like we have to assume that the goal of the algorithm is to keep us engaged as long as possible. And so it will learn our behavior based on like what we comment on, what we like, likely can recognize good and bad comments and likely has some learning there

that keeps us engaged based on our behavior. And then I feel like it's just this, like the AI thing, right? Like we all, we're all in that conversation. But that started a long time ago with these algorithms. It's all artificial intelligence and it's all machine learning and stuff. So I always wonder if we take a step back, at least artists, and we realize that we're all part of this like algorithm and we depersonalize it, would it help our experience seeing a bad comment? And then likely the other thing I'll do too is like if someone's really mean to me every now, then these days I don't really engage it with it. But every now and then if someone is blatantly mean and it stands out, I'll go and I'll just click through and I'll see who that person is.

And I'll read all their comments and they're all like that. They're attacking like 50 different people and I go, oh, okay, this is a this is a persona online, certain character type online that comes here to vent their frustration with the world, right? And they're they're attaching it to, uh, to these people that they have a problem with. And I'm one of them. And so, and I was likely shown to them by the algorithm based on the things that they engage with. So it's interesting. Like when I think about that and I just go, okay, this person uses this as a platform to come and vomit up all their anger. And I, I've been talking to my brother. I'm like, I want to develop a TV show where you dive into,

like the real people. Whoa. And like find them and then you like get to know them. Yeah. And we're like, I want to see where they live. Like do they live? Like what town do they live in? Do they live in their mom's basement?

Or do they live? Or maybe they're like they have this really big life and they come there to just like really vent. Who knows? Yeah. Like are they nice in real life? Yeah. Who knows?

Like what if they are? What if they're like the pastor of a church or who knows who knows who they're. they are. They're like a catfish 2.0. Yeah. Like so, but think about that. Like if we depersonalize it and we just go, no, no, no, no. The algorithm put me in their feed because it knows that they engage with these types of.

And I have to believe that I, like as special as we all are, and I think we all are, we are all just like character types. Yeah. Like I think that we're like a garden variety of. humans and we all have like the same problems and then there are things that make us inherently unique and individual for sure but like generally the habits i think of humans like we're all having the same habits as like certain categories of people yeah so we we fall perfectly into like an algorithm that separates us all into categories and then like feeds us out yeah so i approach

negativity like that now um kind of like that like I just kind of more analytical of it. Yeah. And I'm like, I wonder if I can even, I wonder if I can even change that or influence that or if the algorithm is always just going to feed me out to a certain percentage of people who hate what I do and a certain percentage of people who like what I do. And then you, and then you, I feel like you get tired and then you're like, hmm. You can't take it personally.

And at the end of the day, engagement is engagement. And I feel like once you can see that and realize that for every hateful comment you get, that's pushing your video, whatever it is, to the top of somebody else's feed. Yeah. It's a positive thing. That's eyes on you. Yeah. But there are people who are not built to withstand it.

And at what point are we going to see like class action lawsuits against social platforms that are like causing people mental distress? I'm sure that the user agreements and stuff protect them from that, which is good. I'm not saying there should be. I'm not like pro lawsuit. But I just wonder, like, we know that this causes mental distress for certain people. Yeah. Especially for, like, young people.

Yeah. The bullying and stuff. Big time. Yeah. Do you get bullied online ever? I get hate comments. Just hate comments? Yeah.

Not really bullied. I mean, I also don't really check my message requests. A ton, so I don't really know what's in there. Those are dangerous. Yeah, you never know. My drummer on tour, he gets, like, death threats in his requests every day. Yeah. Like, why?

That makes sense. People are wild. Death, like, actual death threats. Like, I mean, yeah. I don't even want to say the things that I've seen in there. But they're, like, terrible. Is he a personality of some kind? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But I think, I mean, I don't know. I guess it just comes to the territory and you just hope for the best. What kind of people are giving them death threats? Is it a certain kind of fan? I have no idea. Just random, I don't know, jealous, sad people. Weird.

Super weird, right? I wonder if they could get in trouble for that. Probably. I started getting some weird comments. I put this song out around Pride Month called One Nation Underdogs. And it was very like LGBTQ coded. And I started getting a lot of really weird stuff in my inbox. People, I know where you live, stuff like that.

Freaky. But also, I think you got to take a lot of it with a grain of salt and realize they're just keyboard warriors. Yeah. You know. Again, probably got fed to them through the algorithm. Yeah. Because everything they're clicking on is probably like, well, I'm going to show them these people. So then they just start clicking on all LGBT-friendly posts

because that's their thing. And then they just start firing. Batting away. Yeah. I always wonder who those people are. You should do a show. But that's what I'm saying. You should do it.

It would go crazy. And imagine if it was completely unbiased. I just want to know about you. Just the truth. I'm not even going to criticize you for, you know, like freedom of speech, okay? Sure, right? You may not agree with it. And first of all, will you, would those people, like, would they allow themselves to be seen?

That's the first thing I wonder is how many of them would be like, no. Because, and then can we even, like, if we investigate and find out, who someone is and then and build a case of like a file on them and then lay it out just informationally and then go and like spend a day like shooting them like where do they work what is their life like it's not even like to try and demonize them at all it's just to show like the person and then like does that does that lighten the whole thing yeah you know i don't know Yeah. Because I very rarely get mad at people.

Even when they say really dumb, stupid shit, I always just go a layer further and go like, I wonder what's wrong. I wonder what they suffer from. Totally. I wonder what their pain is. Why do they hate? Because the hate is just a, it's like a symptom of the self-hatred or pain or suffering or whatever. It's got to come from something else.

Yeah. It's like almost needs to be. expelled for them towards something else. They have to. Yeah, for sure. It's interesting what's underneath some of the surface level actions and emotions. I saw this interesting thing on jealousy the other day that struck a really accord with me.

Do share. This chick was talking about how jealousy is actually just disguised desire, that you wouldn't be jealous of somebody or feel any type of way towards someone if you didn't want what they had. and that we're flipping it into the negative, but if we just sit with ourselves and sort of recognize that we're allowed to desire things, and maybe it's okay that we want what somebody else has,

but if somebody else has it, it means it's possible for us too. So why be mad at them for having it instead of just accepting that that's what you want? I don't know. It hit me hard because I think it can be really easy to look around, especially as an artist in this industry, with everybody sort of doing similar things all the time and think, oh, I wish I could say,

sell as many tickets as that artist or I wish that I had as many streams as that or whatever it is, followers. And it was just, I don't know, it was a cool thing. It really hit me strongly. I agree with it. You know? When I was younger, I was easily jealous. Yeah.

But then I kind of, as I got older, I realized, well, also just did a ton of work on myself. Yeah. I just went to therapy for how long now, like 12 years of hardcore, just like every week. week. I never miss it. It's like, that's like going to, that's my gym. Yeah. And I love therapy. And I love talking to people about therapy. Yeah. And I love encouraging people to go to therapy. And, you know, it's probably annoying. But I think it really helped me. Yeah. And so it's like the guy who's really fit and he's like excited to tell you how you can be fit to. Totally. I love that guy.

Yeah. Some people might be like, fuck him. You know, But I think it's like you get this thing that changed your life and you really want to share it with people because you feel like that's the answer. It's not the answer for everyone. I don't know. I feel like it kind of is, but like that's my opinion. And I think I learned about self-esteem. And then I learned that when I worked on the self-esteem, the jealousy thing dissipated because I also realized we get fixated on what we think is a solution to our happiness. And so at the moment, it's the person posted their award or their new house or car or whatever it is, right?

Or their success they just had. And I think we get fixated on this in the moment. If I just had that or why do they have it and I don't or whatever. I think it's like this idea that that thing would make us happy. Yeah. And it just won't. No. It's cool to get stuff.

Of course. For sure. Definitely. It's accomplishments, but accomplishments don't make us happy. There's a lot of work like you're saying that goes into being happy, I think. Totally. You know? Learning how to be happy every day.

It's like an art form. Totally. Some days, you ever, I mean, I don't know if you feel this way, but I find that I'll be on like a stretch of just feeling good all the time and then I'll have one bad day. Yeah. And I'll be like, fuck. Can I curse? I can curse. Of course. I was, you can say shit and fuck.

Fuck, yeah. And all kinds of stuff. Okay, amazing. Just no, nothing hateful. I wouldn't, I wouldn't assume you. I'm not very hateful. Just being clear to everyone listening. I think that it's cyclical.

Yeah. So I think that's the other thing that I had to like notice about myself is, we have cycles. So we go up and then we go down. Yeah. To me, it's about looking at where's our floor, where's our ceiling, and then like working on raising our floor.

Yeah. And if we raise our floor, our ceiling will go up. Yeah. So if my floor is at my worst, I am binge drinking, binge drinking, binge, eating, going on line and talking shit to people, whatever your floor is.

Like we all have, if we can analyze like our very worst like moment and like what's, and then find the pattern of it. Yeah. So like what's the pattern with me, right? I do this. And then if we can find that and then just work on that, like incrementally getting it up to a higher place, then our ceiling goes up. And we find when we come out of that down part of the cycle, when we go back up to the top,

we have these like amazing days and then stringing the good days together where there's more good days than bad days. That's the goal. So that your majority of days are good. And then when you have that down cycle, it's only a day or two versus what would used to be a week or two. And I think like depression is, to me, that's how kind of like I found. depression kind of works a little bit like in cycles. Yeah.

And even if you can't track when it's going to hit. Right. It's like how long do those bouts last? Can I like shorten it? How can I do that? Is it usually they say the first thing you do is physical? Like go out. Huge.

Walk. Yeah. Do something physical. Which is like the hardest thing to do when you're depressed. Hardest thing to do. The last thing you want to do. But it's the best thing you can do for yourself. It's really interesting.

it is cyclical and I found that like through the years I'm learning how much better I am at it than the year like the previous year. I kind of just measure how I'm doing by how I was doing the last year. Yeah. It's a good way to measure by that. It's how doctors measure when they take your blood. They look at your numbers and they go, where were you last year? Right. And I feel like for my mental health, I've been doing that a lot lately because I don't know, like I even just got off of this tour. and for the first two days I was home, I got the little post-tour blues. Yeah, it's a real thing.

But usually they would have lasted a lot longer than they did. And I just sort of did all the right things. I took good care of myself, let myself rest, and then I was back at it. And I've been feeling amazing. And I feel like last year, it would have taken me a lot longer. Some people take weeks. Totally.

Usually it does for me. So I was like, I was impressed with myself for getting through it quickly. Do you think the tour thing is the, like, the dopamine and serotonin levels when you have those nights where it's probably, I mean, going on stage number one is like that is a drug that like only people that go on stage understand. Yeah.

And it's amazing sometimes, but there is like a real crash. Yeah. And that's why a lot of people drink or do drugs or whatever because there's like these way out of whack dopamine and serotonin levels and all the, all the chemicals. in your brain that get triggered from performing and the endorphins you get. And then it's like over. It's interesting, like, not only do you deal with kind of the end of night crash after a show because I found like I would do a show be so anxious all day.

Yep. And then go on stage. I was like so edgy. Yeah. And it was like I had to learn how to not be like unpleasant. in my like private space. So I was good at being like cool outside, but then I would be on the bus.

And I find myself I just wanted to sleep. I was so anxious. I didn't want to talk to anyone. And then learning how to manage that, then go on stage and it's the opposite. It's flipped. You're just like through the roof. And then you come off stage

and you're like up here for a couple hours and then you kind of crash. and it's such a weird mini cycle. And then you come home from tour and you're depressed for a month. Yeah. It used to take me like weeks. Totally. Well, I think that for me, I just like can't sit still.

I have a really hard time sitting still. So like day one back from tour, I'm hitting my team. Like, what are we doing? Yeah. Where am I supposed to be? And they're like, you just got home. Relax a little. Yeah.

But I feel like I get all those endurvents just from like moving around all day, pulling up here, going to the studio, like, whatever. it is that we have to be doing. I don't like sitting still. It makes me feel purposeless, but I'm learning to cope with it because it's important to also rest and recover. But it's just not something that's super comfortable for me. Very uncomfortable. You know? It's, yeah, it's very uncomfortable to sit still and quiet. Yeah. Wild. Yeah. But it's good for us, I think. It is good. I mean, I still have to learn how to do it. Yeah. I'm always going.

But if I don't learn how to be still, then I do find that it takes away from my family as well because if I'm always going and I always need to be into something, what I find is it like I have to manage that because I, especially now at this stage in my life, right? Because I have a wife and kids. So it bleeds into my time with them because when I'm with my kids, I have to be still. and just present and let them be the ones who are super active. Yeah. And I think I had to learn that the hard way.

And then I just got it down after a few years of like trying. And still though, like this morning I woke up for whatever reason at five. I usually wake up at like seven, six 30 or seven. I like to get up early. But I woke up at five for some reason. like my brain was on full speed ahead perfect scenario for like an anxiety attack if i don't you know manage it yeah and apply it somewhere so i got up and it was five and i just just i was wired and i was like whoa and every now and then i have one of those mornings like once a month i used to have them a lot

yeah um and so i said all right i'm going to get up and do some stuff while everybody's asleep. And so I, like, did some stuff around the house. Yeah. And then I had, and that was probably an hour and a half. And then I was like, I should sit still. I should just be, it's like 6.30. I should just sit and stare at the sky or something.

Yeah. And I was really struggling to, like, sit still. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to meditate. So I love meditating. But I can't always do it because you have to, force yourself to calm down. And then I meditated and it was like magic. Amazing. They say that like the 5 a.m. time is like the magic time to meditate. That's what I heard.

Yeah. I didn't do it at 5 though. It was like more like 7. Close enough. And then I meditated. Yeah. And I got super calm. And then my day leveled out because, but I do think I would have crashed if I didn't meditate. Meditation is a great tool. Yeah, it is. I should do it more than I do. I love it. And every time I do it, I'm always so glad that I did. Yeah. But I find often I'm waking up and immediately going to my phone and go, go, go. Yeah, yeah.

I've got all this shit that people are like, you got to turn this in, do this. And I want to get into more of a habit. When did you start meditating? Pretty young. I grew up in like a household that was very big on spirituality and meditation and all the things and stuff. Cool. Yeah. My mom, before I moved to California, my mom, like, gave me all these books she wanted me to read,

all these shows she wanted me to watch that were all sort of based in, I don't even want to say spirituality necessarily, but like. It's kind of spiritual though. Yeah. I always find you like places when I do it. For sure. Yeah. And it was cool.

It sort of like gave me a whole new perspective. So your mom taught you how to meditate? Yeah. And she's super religious? No. Or she practiced Judaism? And Christianity. She actually got baptized when she was pregnant with me.

She was bar mitzvahed when she was a kid. And then when she got pregnant with me, she fell in love with Jesus and got baptized. Awesome. And then when I was maybe like a young teenager, like 12 or 13, she got really. into Oprah. Great. And just, like, loved everything that she was doing. I love Oprah, too. I love Oprah.

That was great. And then really into the, like, Eckhart Tolley's and the Deepak Chopras and the, all the good stuff. So I learned a lot from her. The personal growth kind of movement that happened, I think, was like the beginning of where I think we're at now, where it's like personal growth and spirituality and all of the ways we can kind of like grow and better ourselves are I think the response to like mental health always just kind of being like so at least in the 90s it was so taboo to like talk

about it just wasn't normal to say like therapy totally and it started to become it started to be more of a thing but like I think like for our I think for so long our society for decades. And our parents certainly didn't have like the availability of like the options to figure out like, now we have everything. There's apps. There's books. But like I feel like that was the beginning of that whole like revolution.

Definitely. It's super normalized now, which is great. I feel like the youth is on it too. Yeah. They want to better themselves. But people like Oprah really like, like, I, like, I. I feel like she doesn't get enough credit. She really trailblazed.

For sure. You brought a lot of that stuff to the mainstream. Oh my gosh, big time. People like Oprah. There's a bunch of people like that. Have you ever met her? No. Have you?

Super cool, yeah. She's really cool. I want to meet her so I can introduce her to my mom because my mom is such a big fan. I found her to be very powerful. I'm sure. Super cool. I really thought she was dope. Yeah, that's sick.

But I look back at like, people like her and I think it's like a legacy. To me, the biggest legacy they have is these kinds of like ideas they brought to people and normalize like these books and stuff like that. Totally. So your mom is, is she woke? Very.

That's cool. She gets more woke every day. Oh, okay. And it's really sweet because now my dad is sort of like on the wave too. It took him a little while. Yeah. But now I'll call him and he almost sounds like my mom. He'll be like, oh yeah, like I'm just having a great day.

I manifested that the weather was going to be this and this was going to go this way. And I'm like, go ahead. I don't feel like my wife is super woke. I don't feel like I'm very woke. You seem woke. I think I'm in touch with things and comfortable with things. But I feel like she's really woke. I won't be as aware of something.

that like where she is. But I feel like we work well together. Yeah. Because where I also kind of balance her out where I feel like I'm super therapeutic. And I always want to analyze. Stop. Analyze that. And so I feel like we have a good balance for, you know.

Yeah. That's nice. It is nice. Yeah. I feel lucky. Yeah. Are you religious? No.

I wouldn't say that. No, yeah, no. I feel like I'm pretty spiritual. Definitely. Yeah. I feel spiritual. I do love celebrating Jewish holidays, though. The best.

I love it. The high holidays? Yeah. It's great. They're cool. We celebrate them. Yeah? Yeah.

That's cool. I think it's like, this is one of the great things about L.A. Mm-hmm. So much you get to participate in. But in Christmas and, you know, all of the Christian holidays too. And I like the meanings behind all of them. I think like we actually do try to like reflect a little bit with with each holiday.

We're not very religious, but spiritual is a good word. It's a great word. It's important. I feel like that's the wave though. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people are finding their own spirituality. I hope so. What's your music you feel like focused on?

What is it? the themes that tend to like come through a lot? A lot of mental health stuff. A lot of just personal stories and how I cope. I think like my music has kind of taken a journey with me as my mental health has gotten better throughout the years. Was it hard for you? To get better.

Well, was that like a real struggle for you? Depression. Depression or your mental health? So it was really depression. Oh yeah. Any anxiety? Big time. Yeah.

Yeah. anxiety kind of came first. That was like when I first started making music and I was writing a lot about that. Then maybe top of last year, I think I want to say, maybe the year before. I was in like the darkest place I've ever been in my life. And I feel like I've been in a lot of dark places.

In my teenage years, like, I was a rough kid, you know, did a lot of bad stuff that I'm not proud of, did a lot of drugs. Like I've been in the shits. Why do you think? Did it get so bad? Yeah, like, why? At what age did that, at what age did that kind of emerge? The depression?

Just like the behavior, the bad behavior, as you say bad behavior. I feel like as soon as I got into high school, I just, I like romanticized sex drugs and rock and roll. And I think I thought it was really cool. And I think I idolized some people that I didn't realize until I was older that wasn't, I was idolizing the incorrect things. Right. I was idolizing their drug use and I was idolizing sort of and romanticizing these

lives that I thought they lived. But I didn't know. You know, you just see movies and you see on TV or whatever looking up on the internet. Like Kurt Cobain. Right. You know? Yeah. He was my idol growing up.

And I always thought I was pretty, he was just incredibly, like, enigmatic. And it was hard not to be captivated by his. his persona. Totally. Right. But as a kid, you see that and I thought, wow, I want to do heroin. You know? And it wasn't until, I mean, I got clean, like clean, clean for a few years in, like, my early 20s.

And I think that was like a really beautiful spiritual journey for me. Yeah. And I mean, I'm really grateful to be off of all of the hard stuff that I used to do. do. I'm a little bit more fluid now just because I think I'm older and a lot more wise and I don't have the same intentions that I used to have. But it's crazy even through all of that, I still don't think depression ever really got me like it did a couple years ago. Right. And I started writing music about it and I feel like it really resonated with people, which was sad, but also cool that we could all kind of bond over it. But then I found myself in this

interesting place because all I was writing about was being depressed and sort of the feelings that I was having. And then I was getting up every night on stage saying lyrics like I hate myself or whatever the negative sort of self-talk was in the music. And I had to stop the cycle because I think our words are so powerful and what we tell ourselves comes true. And I also was fearing that I was like giving these fans this opportunity to say all these bad things about themselves by singing my lyrics back to themselves. And then I wrote an entire EP about sort of like trying to find happiness. Yeah.

And it kind of like flipped my whole world upside down because it was the first time that I wrote positively instead of negatively. Yeah. And I mean, ever since then, my mental health has just kind of continued to improve. That's crazy. So the words came first. and then you kind of followed. Like the feelings came first,

and I wrote about the feelings, but I think when you repeat something over and over again to yourself, it sort of cements its truth. And I had to end the cycle because it was too long of me feeling the way that I was. And I wanted to take matters into my own hands. And while therapy is an incredible tool, and I also think I learned a lot from that,

I also had to stop singing these things every night, you know. When did you start therapy? Was that like a usual thing? During like a pandemic. Right. That was, I think, when I had like my first real therapy. Was that all at the same time when you were starting to have these realizations about what I'm saying and how I'm feeling? Yeah.

And then I'm also doing this work. Therapy was definitely a through line. I feel like there's a lot of avenues for healing. Yeah. And therapy is a great one. Definitely one of them. I think exercise is a chemical thing that's so good for us. It's like medicine.

Totally. I think reading self-help books. Yeah, there are some good ones. Really good ones. Some books that have changed my life. Which book would you say is one that really stands out? So many. The Untethered Soul is a great one.

That was a good intro into sort of like the monkey chest. batter in our minds. Yeah. Conversations with God. Have you ever read that one? No. Strange, incredible book. This guy, like, started journaling to God.

And then all of a sudden, like, God started talking back. And the whole book is his, like, conversation in journal of, like, him saying something and something that was coming through him in reply. That's cool. Really interesting. I think our subconscious is, like, a godlike part. And I think that there's a lot of wisdom in our subconscious. That first thought we have, that little voice that we a lot of times go,

no, I didn't notice that. I didn't just hear that. If we start to practice hearing it, we'll hear it more. And what people say, like, listen to your gut or... I'm gonna'amena. And, like, my music, my hair can be able to continue my rhythm. For so, Potion Nine, of Sebastian, professional, has all what my hair needs.

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records you know your intuition yeah I think I think that's the I think that's

kind of like the God part 100% we're all given and then it's like a practice

of learning how to like be in touch with it. Totally. I think songwriting is like that too. Right, because it's like a stream of consciousness. Yeah. And also I kind of feel like ideas aren't ours. Yeah.

Like they like float around. I picture them floating around up there and they just fall and land on us if we're meant to be the one to carry them through. Yeah. I don't know if that's true, but that's how I like to think of it. I think that could be true.

Yeah. I think it can be true to it. Because you ever, like, have an idea and then not follow through with it and then see somebody else do it? Like, the idea floated from you to somebody else because you didn't follow through. Yeah, I think about that in like a collective consciousness. Yeah. So, like, if I say something a certain way in a song and it resonates with, you know, millions of people, we're all thinking it. Yeah.

It just happened to flow through me that way. Totally. And everybody else kind of agrees because they've also thought it. Because we're all, it's that whole, like, we're all connected somehow. Like there is this like collective kind of decision making we all have. So we all decide together if something is good or bad or if we decide something's valuable. Like it's like this like collective kind of conscious thing that happens. Big time.

Takes the ego out of it too. I feel like, especially in the creation process. Yeah, like, this is mine. Yeah. Like, it's ours. It's all of ours. Yeah. Yeah.

The mental health thing's good, though, because I think so many people that don't know how to express themselves, I think we take it for granted that we write songs. Therefore, we get really comfortable expressing an idea the way we want to. Right. And I think that most people don't get to exercise. that muscle ever. Like most people get shut down. Right.

Early age, you know, in school or wherever, we're supposed to just, we get rewarded with grades for being the same as everyone else. And so from an early age, we're kind of taught to, we're taught to kind of like get to an answer in this amount of time and it's got to be the same answer as everyone else for the most part. and like we're so we're kind of we're kind of um we're ran through a process that was really i feel like the education system um which is is great in some ways yeah um is really just kind of building a workforce of people who can do take instructions remember them and then repeat them back to you

yeah um so the artistic muscles aren't aren't for the most part focused on and so most people don't get the opportunity all the time to like express how they feel but what they think their interpretation of something and I think people need to hear about depression yeah anxiety yeah because I do think that everyone deals with some amount of it it's just everyone has their own level of it like everybody has some anxiety that they have to manage totally everyone has little bouts of depression or they're you know that they have to manage and learn how to work through yeah and then also i think all of us we can't escape our childhood and our adolescents without some damage and so that mini trauma or big trauma depends on who you are and what you went through right

yeah even like our parents didn't mean to but like there's no way that you're getting out of childhood without some damage. Yeah. And then there's also just a fantasy of like escaping life. Yeah. Getting out of our real lives so we don't have to deal with it. Exactly. It's probably the biggest one for me.

Yeah. It's just like I don't want to deal with it. So I'm going to go off. Right. Yeah. What I learned in my older age was like the sooner, now I'm like I want to deal with it. Let's deal with this.

Yeah. Because you really do. get on the other side of it and you're like, man, I'm glad I figured that out. Oh my God, totally. I actually like always feared getting older and growing up. Yeah. And the older I get, the more I realized how cool it is to have, I feel like every year actually just gets better.

Yeah. Because you learn more ways to have a better life. Yeah. Enjoy yourself more. Feel better. Do better. Problem solve. Everything.

Yeah. And then you realize, like, you get into your late 20s and you realize you're not old. And you thought you'd be old in your late 20s. And you're like, no, I'm not. I mean, I'm in my 40s and I love. 40s have been my best, I think. Yeah. Great.

But I was kind of scared of him when I was 29. It's like a scary, in theory, it feels scary. Like, I turned 30 next year. Oh, that's cool. And I'm like, holy shit. That's a great age. I'm excited. You start killing it in your 30s.

What I do. Really? Yeah. Sick. I'm ready. Yeah. Cool. You also realize like you're not old. You're, you're just not old. So I think you'll make your best music. You'll, it's. You like learn how to be yourself more the longer you're on earth. Yeah. So it's like kind of just get cooler and better at being you, ideally. And you, and the older you get, if you can learn how to like do it gracefully, you can actually really enjoy it. And then you also learn it's kind of like a privilege because you see people that aren't here anymore. You know, the older you get, like it's just a part of life. And you realize like, oh, damn, this is like a real special thing. Totally. Living.

Yeah. Not wanting to waste any of it. Yeah. And when you're young, you don't even realize like how precious life is. Oh my gosh. No, when you're young, you feel invincible. Yeah. Totally.

invincible. It's a blessing. I'm still alive, the shit I've done. It sounds like it. Yeah. I mean, hard drugs are, they scare the shit out of me. Yeah. They just scare me because at my age, I've just seen too much now and I go, it just scares me when I see young people like living crazy like that. I get scared. I think that the lately or not today's day and age, There's a lot less of it, especially in our industry. Yeah, people are smarter. Like there was once upon the time, which is great. It's a good thing.

A good thing. There's a lot. I mean, I don't even really, I haven't seen any of it in this world that we're a part of. I'm sure it's out there. I don't see too much of it. But I haven't seen any of it. I don't think it's in vogue either. Yeah.

No. We just know too much. Yeah. And like there's enough out there. like you watch documentaries and stuff and you see the artist that that went through that and it it really does humanize it where you're like god i wish i could have just talked to him you know what i mean yeah um yeah i feel like it's not like a thing like it used to be it was definitely a thing in the 90s i remember god i remember like we would play early days before we were signed

we would play anywhere yeah and i remember playing these house parties and i was naive to it, but there was like a room of people that were all like laying around. And it was like, they were all doing heroin. In the 90s, that was like a, that was definitely like a drug that like in music. And I remember not realizing it until I was older going, oh my God, we were like playing these party, these house parties. And there was just, it was all kinds of stuff. But it was the heroin thing was like really dark. I think enough people, we lost enough people that hopefully that's why people aren't doing it anymore.

I mean, I know that I'm sure there's still people out there doing it, but I think especially in this industry, everyone just, I think, wants to, at least from what I've come across, everyone just wants to make a positive impact. I think so. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing. It is a good thing. Do you have music you're working on now? Yeah, I've been putting out two songs a month for the past few months.

months. That's cool. Really fun. Yeah, because it kind of like opens me like up the genre thing. I don't have to be, it doesn't all have to be so cohesive. And I just started getting back in the studio after being on tour. And I'm excited. I have like three acoustic songs coming out on September 1st. I love acoustic songs. Yeah, I haven't really done that. So I'm excited. Yeah. Anyone you're like collaborating with? My friend, you know Jack Kay's. He wrote one of them with me. It's like one of my favorite songs actually that I've ever made.

Cool. He's probably my favorite artist. He's so sick. He's super cool. Really cool. You're super cool. Thank you. But you have like a cool, like, reputation.

Really? Absolutely. Thank you. I mean, from my perspective. Thank you. I definitely like, you have a really good reputation with like artists and stuff. People like you. Thank you.

That's a wonderful thing to hear. It's a real thing. It means a lot. I didn't know. I think that it's a necessity to have a career, a long career, to get along well with people and to be, I don't know, fun's the right word, but like to get along well with people and to be like. Genuine?

Yeah. Something. Mm-hmm. I just think there's so many cool people in this world of what we do. Most people are nice, I think. So nice. Yeah. There's a lot of really cool, nice people that I consider to be my friends.

that I adore, that I feel really grateful to know. And it's cool, too, I think a lot of the people I was fans of for a long time before I even really, like, kind of came into this scene. It's kind of a scene. Kind of a scene. I don't know if that's the right term. But, like, it's been cool to, like, get to know some of the people that I had been listening to for years prior even and get to know these people.

Yeah. It's cool. What's been your favorite tour? Probably this last fallout boy one Yeah I love them all for different reasons They were all really special But this one was

I think I had the most fun And I had the best attitude And I was the most comfortable Is there anyone on tour On that tour that you became like buddies with that you felt like You know on tour You'll emerge with like a friend

That you didn't have before Yeah I mean all the fallout boy guys were amazing I love those guys They're so great I totally, I hit it off with Pete. I had him on my podcast that I do. I love Pete.

So fun and so hilarious. What's your podcast? It's this like radio show on AMP. Great. I do it once a month when I put the, I do the two songs go on this thing called rat traps. Yeah. And then I do rats radio once a month. I love rats.

I love rats. You should be on my podcast. Shout out to my friend Jordan, who's Mitchell from Chase Atlantic's. girlfriend. Cool. She's an amazing photographer. Sick. We like rats.

We always talk about rats. I love rats. They're cute. That's a great name. Thank you. Well, Royal and the Serpent spells out rats, which... Amazing. Yeah.

Which I didn't even realize until somebody got... So it's usually Royal Amper Sand, the sign, and the serpent. And that's how you would write it out for emails headline, like R-Ampersand T-S. Got it. And somebody got it wrong on some email thread once, and it spelled out, rats like accidentally and i was like wait a minute hold on that's genius subconsciously yeah i spelled rats because like serpent rats eats i mean snakes eat rats yep the whole there's a great clothing brand um stray rats stray rats the rat girl hat i have been a fan of that brand since they started

they used to wear it all the time it's impossible to get because every time they drop something it sells out. But great brand. Super cool. I love Pete and the fallout boy guys. They're all so sweet. All of them. They're the real deal. I got to have like some really lovely conversations with all of them. They're great. Yeah. Really just genuinely cool people. And their photographer, do you know the photographer, Elliot? So cool. Him and my photographer like totally hit it off because they ended up pulling my photographer to do a bunch of work for them while they were on the tour, which was I was really happy. for him. Yeah. So it was really cool. So it's hard being a photographer. Yeah. Well, he ended up shooting

not only for me, but then bring me's photographer left for a week. So he was shooting for them. And then Fall Out Boy wanted him to shoot for them. So he was doing three shows a night for like a few weeks. Great. Kind of crazy. Yeah. He crushed it. I was like so proud of it. It's hard to be a photographer because we live in this kind of age where you can, where anyone can just pull a picture, post it. And I'm not saying that's bad. But it's almost like this art form of like, especially live photography has kind of been devalued a little bit by like the accessibility of like sharing.

Yeah. And so in some ways it can be great with an iconic picture makes its way around. It used to be different. Yeah. And also hard work. Shooting a live show is not easy. Yeah. I, the opening act that went on before me for some of the last shows, games we play, do you know them?

Yeah. Their photographer was out for a day, so I offered to shoot their set as like a fun thing. That's cool. Yeah. And- Are you a good photographer? I like to believe so. I think I'm a better videographer than I am a photographer.

I made him like a really cute little video. Also very, you know, great art form. Mm-hmm. I love, oh my God. I love video editing. I think more than I like making music. Are you a good editor? Which I rarely say yes when asked things like that.

Very valuable skill. I love doing it. I love making music videos. I hope to be a director someday and direct feature films. You should. I would love to. That's a big goal of mine. I think that artists are capable always of at least one or two other mediums.

I always say to artists like, what else do you do? Like this artist, Zeff, she was on the show. She's an incredible illustrator. She also edits. She edits videos. But she illustrates. I always find that with artists. If they search, they're going to find another medium that they're just

terrific at. Director. Drawing is something I would love to be able to do, but I'm trash. I'm not good at it. I'm so trash. People want me to draw them tattoos. You ever get asked to do that? Yeah, of course.

And I'm like, you don't want. want that. I promise. Your tattoos are cool, though. Did you draw them? I did not draw any of these. No, I wish. Great choices. Thank you. It's kind of just a mess. The hearts on the knuckles are cool. Thanks. These are really cool. Thank you very much. I do love, I love tattoos. I do too. Yeah, you have really cool. I like your hand ones a lot. Scott Campbell. Very sick. Who also, I think, has a podcast coming out. He's an amazing artist. Sick, a sick tattoo artist. That's cool. My brother's a very good artist.

He paints and draws and he's really good at it. That's amazing. That's great. Do you direct your own music videos? Most of the time. Either co-direct or just totally direct. I'm actually shooting one on Sunday night that I'm like fully taking 100% of the reins on. And it was cool.

We had like a camera rehearsal yesterday and I like was holding the candle on the gimbal and like directing. It was cool. Do you have another tour lined up? Yeah, I just announced my headline. Oh, great. Yeah. I'm really excited. I've never done a headline tour. So I'm stoked.

When's it start? October 14th. Amazing. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm pretty stoked. It's terrified, but excited. You have the merch and everything dial? I've been designing the merch with my boyfriend.

He designs all my merch with me. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. What's his name? You know a beauty school dropout? Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's the bassist in that band. Oh, cool.

Brent. Beepis. Musicians. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. So he's an incredible graphic designer. So he's been helping me with the merch. So we don't have anything set in stone for the headline yet, but he did all the follow-up stuff that we did. And it crashed the people loved it. We put like, I have tattoos all over the whole front of my body. So he took like an image of like the front of me without anything on. But I have like really tattoos everywhere. And we like thresholded it. So it was like just the tattoos like on a shirt. You know it's like old shirts that look like a bikini body. It's kind of like. that, but like tattoo me. That's great. It was cool. It came out good.

That's cool. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Well, is all the music going to be out when the tour hits? I mean, yeah, we just keep putting stuff out. I don't really have a plan of when I'm stopping the two song a month thing. So I think what I'm going to do is actually ask the fans what they want to hear and let

everybody decide. There'll be like a section of the show that. I'll have asked maybe that city before I go what songs they want to hear and I'll just play songs that are like deep cuts that maybe people haven't heard. Where's the main place you talk to your like fans like that? Discord. Oh wow.

Big in the Discord. Really love that. Actually have a game night in the discord tonight after this. Discord's kind of getting bigger like that where like bands and stuff are using it. It's not just NFTs anymore. Yeah. Well, because it's all very concise. There's like all these different rooms.

that you can chat about all these things. And I have like some cool channels on mine. I love my mods. They set it up for me. But there's like, are they fans, the mods? They created it for me,

which is so cool. And there's like a venting channel. If people need help, they can like go talk to people. There's like all these different channels. My boyfriend has a channel and they just like post pictures of him and they see him on tour.

It's like cute, but also I think helps the kids feel connected. Yeah. To something. What's the through line with your fans? What do you find if there's like a main characteristic or trait that they have, is there a similarity between them? A lot of them are queer.

Okay. Yeah. Cool. And yeah, a lot. That's interesting. Right? Yeah. I love it.

Yeah. It feels safe. Yeah. And it feels like I'm creating something for people that need something. Yeah, they need a place that they feel. they can connect with each other, I think is like the coolest. That's my favorite part about it. And go and like really be themselves.

I think we don't give enough credit to the idea that like it's not so easy to be ourselves in the world every day. And it's painful to think about that when you stop and think about it because it's not, especially if you're different from the normal. I always think about that. Where do kids go when they need to work that out? That's super cool. Concerts. Which is concerts, right?

So they can go in real life and be with people, meet up with people that they maybe talk to in the Discord. It's like church. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. That's really cool. Do you keep that in mind when you're out there? Well, not only when you're making music.

because I'm imagining a young person who's having that experience. Is there like an average age? Is it like 16 to 26 or something like that? That's a good estimate. I say kids. Like I assume that they're young and then I don't even think about the fact that they could very well all be in like their 20s. Well, I think sometimes when you're an artist and you have all these fans that are dedicated

to you, they feel like your kids sometimes because you're there. And even if they don't know you're reading what they're writing, you are, and you're getting to, like, a peek into, like, their life. So regardless of their age, I do think sometimes you feel like they're your kids. Yeah, totally. There's got to be, though, under 18, because a lot of the shows we're doing are all ages. So I would assume that there's a good population of them that are 14, 15, 16. And I hope that I'm influencing them in some positive way. It feels like you are.

I really hope so. If they're coming to your show, you are. Yeah. I just want to be a positive impact on the, not the whole world, but like whatever of the world I get to be a part of. I want to have a positive impact. I feel that way too.

Yeah. I always say I don't want to waste any words when I talk to someone. That's why I probably talk so much. Like I'll meet someone and basically do this. for like an hour. Yeah. Because I always feel like, I don't know if I'm ever going to see this person again.

So if we're talking, I'm going to try and give them as much information as I can. I also don't ever want to leave anyone feeling bad with an interaction. I couldn't agree with that more. And when I was younger, I don't know if I thought about that. I think I was in my own shit. So I was more defensive. Yeah. And as I got older, maybe it was having kids.

You know, and I was saying, you know, that changes things. Well, you realize, like, all a kid needs, they don't need life lessons. Life is going to give them life lessons. They need a cheerleader. They just need someone that's like, yeah, you could, that's a good idea.

And then you take that out of your house. And I think you start to meet people, you start to look at people a different way. And you start to kind of go like, oh, man, I feel like this person didn't get enough encouragement or whatever. And again, like, maybe I'm overthinking it, but it's just my perspective. And so I find that I always want to leave people feeling encouraged.

Yeah. I think it's, I agree. I just want to make people feel good, you know? And I don't, I think it's, it can be simple. Yeah. You know, but it, I mean, it was cool. to hear that I have like a positive reputation, I guess, in that regard.

Because it definitely is a huge goal of mine and something my mom actually taught me at a very young age was to sort of always be very inclusive and give everybody the same good energy. Yeah. You know? Well, the adverse of that doesn't really make sense to me. No.

You know? No. It makes sense to like go around and be mean. No. grumpy people do it yeah but even when i encounter those people i tend to feel like like like more empathetic than than anything else i'm like oh man what's going on over there that guy yeah yeah yeah but maybe but just a theory yeah that you aside from your mother setting you up for that maybe the like peek into your fan's life has given you even more empathy 100% and you've become

somewhat responsible for a certain group of people or to feel a bit responsible for a certain group of people to have a place to go well I think that something I think about often is that without them there would be no career for me this would not be a career 100% I wouldn't be able to do this for a living. So the more that I can give back to them to show how much I appreciate them for giving me this life that I've always dreamed of, it's, no matter what I do, the exchange never feels even. I never feel like I'm giving enough for how grateful I feel for them. You know? Yeah, I know. I definitely feel like I felt that way. And where I'm at now, I feel like the only reason I would play a show, which we don't do a lot of, is because of them.

So I feel like I no longer have a need or a feeling of like a desire to go on stage. I just don't, if I'm being honest. But I do in the sense of these people that have continued to make this kind of legacy live. and so I have a want to give them something. And so that's where I think, and I feel like the whole band feels that way. We want to create, we want to make a record. We've been talking about it for like two years now.

Like we've got to make a record. And we've all been talking about like what's the vision of that record because we feel like we have to deliver something that's true to us. But the reason we want to deliver a record is for this group of people that have taken this kind of thing and made it something that like it's beyond us it's like a legacy that like

we feel like they're keeping yeah and so i feel like that is purely our motivation now is kind of is this group of people yeah it's interesting where my motives before were were what i would say we always did want to put music out that made people feel good but like we we it For me, it was like a little selfish. I wanted to put a record out and have the experience and do the thing. Totally. Well, I think once you don't need those things because you've already gotten them, I'm sure the script kind of flips and there's a different purpose for all of it.

Yeah. But I think that relationship you have is the purest, is one of the purest ingredients for like really good art. Yeah. It's good. Like community. Yeah. They're like all these fan bases are little.

communities. Yeah. And a lot of them intertwine with the other ones and like all the sort of kids that are doing the same thing. But it is. It's like relationship building. You're like creating friendships. I talk about this all the time.

But I'm going to say it again because I think there's this unquantifiable butterfly effect that night in Chicago at your show where that one person needed to be there and at somewhere else. And it could change the course of their life because they had a place to go and they had a moment with a song or they had a moment where they felt better about life, not worse, better about themselves, not worse, that absolutely is changing the course of not only their life, but probably a bunch of other people's lives as they go forward in a positive on a positive path versus like what if they didn't have that show to go to and they were in that perfect storm of life

and they chose something bad and negative and dark. That to me is the thing I always think about the thing we can't quantify with music and how powerful it is that someone had a moment where they chose to love themselves to do something good and then they went on and did incredible things or they helped one person, that chain of events that you're a part of that you'll never know is like, to me, like probably the most important thing about the thing that we all, that we all do. Yeah. But we're just a part of.

Right. Just this positive chain reaction. Totally. It's a vessel. Yeah. Yeah. It's a cool way to look at it. I'm going to join your Discord.

Join it. Yeah. It's fun in there. We just hit 2,000 members today. Amazing. Yeah. It's a good discord. Yeah.

It's a good because the mods created it. So they're so excited for more members that join. What's the Discord for people to go join? It's the Rats Discord. I posted on my stories like almost every day. So it's out there. It's on my Twitter. The link is out there.

On your Instagram. Yeah, I just posted it today because we're doing that game night. Royal and the Serpent. The Rats. The Rats. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Appreciate you. Thank you for checking out today's episode of Artist Friendly with Ryan Santiago of Royal and the Serpent. We hope you enjoyed today's show. Don't forget, you can subscribe to the podcast. on Spotify. If you really love the episode, you can rate it and review it on your favorite podcast platform. Your support means a lot. We'll see you next time.