Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Ryan Ashley

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Ryan Ashley. Though Ashley dreamed of becoming a tattoo artist as a teenager, she didn’t think it was realistic and became a fashion designer instead. Specializing in beads and lace, she ultimately used that eye for detail and deep understanding of tattoo culture to win Ink Master season 8 in 2016. Since winning in 2016, she’s gone on to appear in spin-offs and other seasons, including serving as a judge on season 16 of Ink Master, which is airing now. In a conversation with her co-star, Ashley reflects on her most meaningful tattoo, the challenges of being a working mom, and behind-the-scenes stories from the Ink Master set. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up, everybody. It's Joel. Thank you for listening to Artists Friendly. And you may or may not know, I host a TV competition called Inkmaster, and Inkmaster is back. A new season is now streaming. The OGs and Young Guns are going tat to tat in this epic battle, now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Go to Paramount Plus.com to try it for free. Hey, what's up, everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is Artist Friendly on this episode of be talking to tattoo artist, creative director, and one of the judges from Paramount Plus's Inkmaster, which has a new season out now, Ryan Ashley. Let's go. I don't want to bed times. I don't want to have bad. How's it going, Ryan? Hi. How you doing? Good. I, uh, you're finally here.

Finally. I know we've been talking about it for a while. I've asked you to come for the last year. I know. I know. I'm very happy you're here. I know. I was blown it off for a second. Life got really wild. But you also live far away. Yeah, I do. I think I live so far out in the desert that it's kind of like a day and a half to get anywhere. Yeah. Like Laura Ingalls out there, you know, like Little House on the Prairieing it in the middle of nowhere. Which is cool. Yeah, it's really cool. But I'm definitely glad to be doing it. I feel like we've had so many conversations, you know, so many important, impactful conversations that I've left feeling like,

Man, I wish we could have shared that with, you know, more people that could have also benefited from that, you know, information and exchange. We've had so many conversations on set in between, you know, shooting and you have those hour or two hour long breaks and you're just killing time and then, you know, hanging around. We always go really like introspective, always the deeper meaning. That's kind of always where we always go. Always. It always leads to that. I think between all of us, everyone. has something to contribute, but it's all so interesting to everyone else, right? And the conversation

builds and builds and builds. And there's been so many times, you know, in the dressing rooms when we're filming that we've had these conversations that are, that are like moving, right? Like, remember we had that one combo. It was in the very beginning season 14. Me, you, Nico, and Ami, one of the biggest, you know, first conversations that we had. I remember feeling like looking at my arms and being like, oh my God, I have goosebumps. Like the hair is standing up on my arms because the energy of the conversation was so contagious, right? And I think the majority of the conversations we've had have been really deep, like really deep. And it's just, it's powerful, right? They've been deep enough that they've sat with me for a while afterwards. And I always leave

Inkmaster feeling like I gained some really important insight. Right. I've evolved a little bit more as Ryan because of those moments that, you know, we've all had. Yeah. I feel that way too. Yeah. You know, when I first met you, I only knew you in the context of the show, which is great. For me, as a not a tattoo artist, I get to have a lot of fun. I was talking to DJ about this. You being a tattoo artist and an artist, and then also, having won the show and going through that really that competition and that process that like

labyrinth of what it is and then being a judge which is a label that's it sets us up to feel bad just the word judge yeah right um so you're like coming from this empathetic place as an artist i'm not i am a little you know i care about people right but there's not as much at stake for me because I don't have, I'm not going back to my shop and around all these artists in this community of people. They don't know what the fuck did you say that for? Totally. Yeah.

And I'm like, well, I was on TV and I was just saying what I thought at the moment. But I don't have to deal with that. I come back to a music studio and I was like, hey, that was cool. Yeah. But that perspective that you have is also so important because I think for us artists, we get so in depth in those technical fundamentals that we forget to zoom out, right? and see the tattoos for what they are. They're tattoos, right?

And so to hear an opinion without such a, you know, in-depth technical education, just a basic first-glance opinion, that's really important too. The average Joel. The average Joel. It's so important. It's so important.

That looks cool, you know? Yes. I like how you put that on his arm the way it's laid out. I can't believe we haven't actually used the average Joel. and any sort of like inkmaster copy. Like can we get some T-shirts? I mean, it's catchy. Not just the average, Joel.

Not just the average Joel. But that is actually my perspective when I'm looking at tattoos. I just go, oh, cool. Totally. Remember the one time you really like, you changed my whole. Actually, maybe it was the first season. Yeah, it was. I have no idea what's coming.

I'm like, I have this chip of my shoulder because I have some bad. bad tattoos. I have like two legs of stuff. Not to say my my left leg is actually not that bad. It's just not finished. Yeah. But like the old stuff you, when you started getting tattooed and you're just, just cover me as fast as possible. I'm still doing that to be honest. I'm still, anyway. Just cover me. Yeah. And then now tattooing has gotten so much more sophisticated and it's gotten so much more accessible. You can find artists. You can get to them. You can get tattooed. And then you have other inspiration because you're on Instagram and you're like, oh, look how he had did his. And you have so much more to look at and draw from and create your idea of what you want to look like. And I had a

chip on my shoulder with people who had perfect looking tattoos. And I said to you, I remember. It looks too perfect. And you said, no, that's not what you said. That's not what you said. What did I say? You were like, I hate when people have only good tattoos. or something, right? Like, I hate when people have, I hate it. And I meant it. I know you did. And you were like, ooh, sounds like someone's jealous.

Yeah, I absolutely remember that. Because I have the same feeling. And you know who we were looking at? We were looking at Angel Rose. Because Angel Rose has the most perfect throat tattoo and everything is symmetrical and done really well. It's like a beautiful, a beautiful layout. And, you know, she was standing there and you were like,

man, those tattoos are so good. You know what I hate? I hate when people have only good tattoos. And when you said it, I was, I was like, I registered what that emotion was because I felt it before too and it's jealousy. It's jealousy. And you said that to me. You said, oh, and you were nice about it. It sounds like someone's a little jealous. And I was like, my God. You're right. Like we just identified what that emotion is that I'm feeling. Where else am I doing this in my life? But I was like, I was like, whoa, you're right. and it changed how I see those super clean body suits of like well-planned perfect tattoos.

Now I am jealous and I give them the props they deserve. Well, you have to be real with yourself too, because are you the type of person that's willing to commit to years of scheduled tattoo appointments and paying all that money and treating it like a, you know what I mean? To get those beautiful symmetrical, perfect body suits, it's a commitment. it's I'm not that person. I am not that person. I like getting my tattoos on a whim. I like having a, you know, a crazy idea and being like, let's go. Let's do it. Yeah. Because I feel like you earn, you earn it in a deeper way that way as well, right? Because you're not taking yourself too seriously and you're actually celebrating the moments of your life that are so personal. It doesn't even really matter that much what they look like. It's what they mean to you. And it's just a different type of collector,

I think. Yeah. I'd say the biggest thing I learned over the years in getting tattooed is just someone who wants to, I do want to be covered. Look at the parts of my body that don't have tattoos when I'm, you know, in my swim trunks or whatever. My knees aren't covered. They stick out at me. I'm like, oh, those knees, those awful knees. I hate those knees. What is that? What is that skin? What is that? Blank skin? Ew. You know, and so what's interesting about where I've gotten to at this age in a more like therapeutic mindset is like how fucking mean I was to myself as a kid and why I got

tattoos in the first place wasn't exactly healthy. Right. And I've taken it to a healthier place. And the healthier place is that I love it. Yeah. And now I pick people I love. I don't get tattoo that much. I'd get tattooed way more if I had the nerves still to like sit there.

And so the older I get, the less my nerves kind of like I even want to. Yeah. But at the end of the whole thing, I will be covered and I'll have every, you know, every inch of me covered. Yeah. And I'll get there in my own time. But I've learned to like pick people you love and let them tattoo you. Give them an idea of what you're feeling.

And then they're going to come up with something great because you love them and you love their art and you love their ideas. Yeah. And then you'll have this piece of art from someone you love. your body and it'll be special in a different way. When I was younger, I was just like, I want this there, which is a different thing. It absolutely is because I think the older I get, the more definitely spiritual I become. And not just more spiritual.

I am starting to understand, or I believe that I understand, you know, energy a lot more and how energy is transferred and how you could be like change and affected in a really deep level by the energy that someone else gives you, right? And so with tattooing, tattooing started, you know, in the beginning of its roots as something sacred. But I think there was just a 3,000-year-old Egyptian mummy that was discovered, and she was a high priestess, like, you know, high noble priestess, and she was covered in tattoos.

She had throat tattoos, she had sleeves, all of this, and it was regarded as this beautiful ceremonial thing. And through history, tattoos have always, been spiritual or represented important things and they've become you. They've, you know, they've, you know, meshed with your physical body and you develop a new identity, but they've always been about respect. You had to, you know, earn your right to tattoo, basically. And in the last few years, some of us in our studio have always talked about how really tattooing itself, the act of tattooing is such a spiritual thing.

Because what you're doing is you are putting ink into someone's skin. You're putting a piece of artwork on them. But if it's your artwork, you're giving a piece of your soul. You're putting that art in with such intention into that person. And it's such a transfer of energy. And it's not to be taken lightly, you know? It's really important that the person that's tattooing you really understands the level of importance that tattoo is to you. right and shows you the respect as the client to understand how meaningful it is and how much

that tattoo can change their life right and I think something that we're missing that we're losing in the tattoo industry is respect I think we're losing respect for each other I think we're losing respect for the client I think we're forgetting that at the end of the day we're in the business of customer service 100% that's what our job actually is and we're not you know waiting on these people, we're not, you know, our job is not customer service in the classic sense of customer service, right? It's not like we have a call line and people call in or anything like that. Yeah, you're not, you're not, um, you're not waiters or waitresses. It's collaborative. It's collaborative, but we're still, it's still something we should be taking pride in in serving these clients and

making sure they could have the best experience they could possibly have. And a lot of artists now, because art is advancing so much. AI is taking over the tattoo industry. It's swiping it. It's swiping it clean. Because in the tattoo industry, there's many different types of tattooers. There are really creative artists

that come up with these insane fucking concepts. But the trick for them is translating that into skin. And then there are artists who are insane replicators, like computer printers, that could go down and just replicate something like a hyper-realistic photograph, but they may not necessarily have the skills to create that image from scratch, right?

They could replicate. From conception, like to... Totally. Yeah. And then the conceptual artists may not have the technical skills that these replicators could have. Right.

And now what AI is doing is it's breaking down this boundary so that the color realism replicator artists are able to use AI and come up with these concepts and these references that were never before available.

Yeah, so fast. So instantly. Literally, it's instant. And so now the art that's coming out of the industry is, I mean, it's mind-blowing. It's beyond the level I ever actually thought it was going to be at, to be honest. And especially in the last year since AI has taken over, I can't believe some of the stuff that's happening in tattooing. But in that, it loses its soul a little bit. It does.

because we're taking all these beautiful concepts that these artists can imagine and we're having AI render it for us, right? But for me as an artist, part of the beauty of art is having the idea in your mind and trying to translate that into the physical form, right, into this reality. And artists are no longer doing that. And I think art happens when your hand tries to create what you see in your mind. And it's that translation that you have all the happy, accidents and the little mistakes and the painting starts to take its own form. And for me, sometimes when I paint, it almost starts to tell me what it is. And so, that's the magic. We're losing the magic. We're losing the magic. The lightning in a bottle when you get it right.

Yeah. It's music too. Yeah. If you listen to the Top 100 or New Music Friday or those, I don't know the number yet. They'll have it soon. But a percentage of those songs are actually AI. generated in some part of their process. So even if it started in AI and then they took it and finish it, that's where most of the AI generated music that people aren't telling you that they used AI. But you can kind of, there's a feeling that's hard to explain because there's like a soullessness to, like I told you, we're making a new good Charlotte album. Yes. And the magic of it is that we're beating our heads against the wall to get to the song we think is. And, you know, that's good enough and it's all coming from in us.

Yeah. And there's nothing about the process that's automatic. It's very hard. Hard. And draining and you leave feeling frustrated or tired or a little hopeless sometimes. But then you break through. And that's the magic when you get it and you get this song and you're like, I fucking love this song.

I don't care what anyone thinks. I don't care if anyone hears it. I just like this song and I want to keep it. Yeah. This is my song. and that's when you know you have a song. Yeah. And then you can record it and put it out, but it's my song.

Yes. And that's how I got to feel about every song that I put out for myself. Anytime I didn't feel that way, I put the wrong song out. And look, I can live with my mistakes and they make me and I can go like, I remember that era. That's why I did that because I was lost in the sauce for a minute there on that or whatever. But like, then you get back to the truth. Yeah. However done that song may be, or little or simple or whatever, it's mine.

Yeah. And it's my baby. Do you feel like as an artist, how you find that song or how you hit it and how you know when you feel it, that it's done or that it's it, right? It's an innate feeling inside. But you have to get your mind into that zone, right? Into the zone. And any type of art that you do or project or creation or whatever, you have to be able to tap into that in your mind. mind and really hit that level in your consciousness, basically, where you're able to tap into

something greater. And it's a different place. It's not like, I think that's why being an artist in any capacity as a job is really hard. It's hard, yeah. Because you can't just create on demand. No. Can't just be like, hey, go. Let me see a blah, blah, blah, you know, because that's not, art isn't supposed to happen that way. It's not. It's like saying to somebody like, hey, enter a super deep meditation right now. You can't do it because getting into that zone for me at least is like a really deep meditation. I have to really let go of everything else in my mind enough to be able to hit the capacity to be able to just watch my hand do what it does almost. And with all of this, you know, AI and digital stuff and all of these shortcuts, I think they're

just shortcuts. I don't think we're actually tapping into that zone as much as, we could. Like, it's almost like, um, going to sleep, but never hitting REM. Yeah. You know? Never really resting. Yeah. Totally. But in art, it's almost like we're never really fulfilling our greatest potential unless we hit that zone. And the more we use all of this digital bullshit, the less we're going to hit that zone. A friend of mine said to me, I was thinking about this, because we were talking about, I think I said something like, yeah, it's been six or, it'll be seven years since we've made a record. So kind of a long time.

For average artists, like every two or three years, they're putting out a record. And part of me feels bad about that and frustrated about that. Yeah. And then she said, the carrot grows underground. Yeah.

So the seven years it took for this to come was if you love it and you knew it was time and then you went in and then you listened to your instincts and you waited and you waited and you waited and then you're like now it's time i think i'm ready yeah and then we went in and we started working on these songs and we're fucking right that we're in the zone i fucking having so much fun yeah and i'm making something that i care deeply about that's the

feeling i have to have i have to care deeply about every detail that's when i should be making a record if i don't care i should not be there i absolutely agree so if it took seven years or ten years for that to grow, to swell up to the ground to come out, then that's how long it took. And it was worthwhile to wait. Yeah. I mean, your personal evolution takes time, right? And I feel like you have to allow yourself those cocoon phases for true evolution. You can't be the same person that you've always been and just continue that year after year. You want yourself to evolve. You want to allow yourself these little hibernation periods in different areas to explore different avenues of yourself. And I think that's what's hard with tattooing, especially with Inkmaster. It's like you have all

these incredible tattooers. They're amazing that have spent years on their craft. And all of a sudden, we're throwing them in a room being like, all right, you guys are the best. Create, create, create. And it's almost challenged. And beat each other. Right. Totally. You know, on national television and from millions of people, like, let me see the best thing you've ever done. There's millions of people watching. What? Like, it's, so it's almost a competition of who can get into that zone state, the easiest. Like, who can harness it the fastest.

With cameras. Absolutely. Absolutely. But for me, like, I love art. I love painting. And just like you said, like, sometimes I'll go years without doing a painting, a real painting, right? Not a sketch for someone else, not a tattoo design for a client. a real painting for me. Sometimes there's years in between because I'm not ready.

And then one day I'll see a board that's shaped a certain way and I'll see in my mind, I'll see what goes on it and I'll feel the spark. And then I have this literally this desire. It's like a hunger to translate it, like to get it out of my brain and put it on this thing. But I still tattoo every day. I still create every day. I still have to use my mind. It's just a matter of like how deeply you connect

with the art that you're producing. And when it comes to doing artwork for other clients, I try to really give all of my clients to the best of my abilities, the tattoo I feel like they deserve or the tattoo that they are asking for. And I'm creating it, and I'm trying to get in that zone,

and I'm trying to pull the coolest shit out. But it's not for me. It's for them. Right. Right? And there's less pressure, I guess, and it's not as heavy because as long as it resides with them and they're happy with it and they connect to it, that's awesome.

When I do artwork for myself, it's like, it's almost like, who am I now? And what do I connect to? And how does this feel to me? And yeah, it's just interesting having to create on demand. Here's my perception of you. You're a, I mean, I know enough about your life because we've gotten to know each other, so I know where you're from, I know what you've been through. enough to know that you're a tough person.

You have had to be tough. Endore. And because first of all, life is hard and life is full of pain and suffering. And that's guaranteed for all of us. Pain of life is a guarantee in Texas. But then to also, when we're from places that are like where we're from, and we've gone through the family dynamics of life that we've gone through. So we share a lot of similar background stuff.

And then to go into the big bad world, we have some wins and we think everyone's going to be happy for us. And then we find out that the world is actually a lot of people are suffering and they're not that happy because they're going through their own stuff. As I get older, I realize that's why someone wouldn't be happy for me is their own suffering versus like something with me, actually. But get all the way on the other side of your storied career, because you've accomplished a lot. in a very tough industry for women. So, I mean, that's probably like a whole podcast episode. I don't even want to really open that box up because I have a lot of feelings about it, but I'll just sum it up by saying like it's a tough business for women.

And it's very, in the arts in general and the world in general, but entertainment, music, cultural businesses, very tough for women. So to go through that entire career and you're in like mid swing of your career. I think you're like firing on all cylinders. You're successful. The way I see you as a tattoo artist is an emotionally connected tattoo artist. So I feel like someone's going to get a better tattoo from you if they're open and emotionally connected versus like just put something cool in my arm.

This is what I want. Yeah. Do it. Right. I feel like you're going to get a lot. They're going to get a lot more out of you if you. get something out of them and there's like this mutual thing that happens when there's like a lot of joy involved and there's a lot of like it doesn't even have to just be joy it just has to be some sort of

legitimate emotion right real because i think it's easy for people to connect on in happiness right everyone can be happy together it's easy to connect with someone when you're feeling good yeah i think it's really hard to connect with someone on a lot of different emotions like when you have to be vulnerable vulnerability is extremely hard but it's such an important and emotion because vulnerability makes you human, right? Or grief or sadness or any of those other things. And when two people are able to connect and understand and share a feeling, not necessarily that feeling, but share the understanding of what that feeling is like, I think that's where true connection happens, right? Because a lot of the time for me, in not a negative way,

but I think happiness is cheap, right? I could have fun with anybody. I could shoot the shit with anybody. I could hang out with anybody. I love people. I love love, you know, but I think I really respect and admire and covet the people that are able to connect on those harder, harder emotions, you know? There's been some moments in my life, like, if you said to me, like, name one of the most impactful, you know, most powerful moments in your life that you really felt moved for real. Name one. Right? Every single time I have done a mass. mastectomy tattoo, a mastectomy, you know, scar, cover up tattoo, has been impactful. But the first one I ever did, it was at the end of it.

And she, you know, we talked through the whole tattoo and we shared and we cried together and all the, I'm not saying this happens at every tattoo appointment, but this one really hits close to home for me. And she got up at the end of her, at the end of her session and she looked in the mirror and it was like the most vulnerable moment I could. could possibly tell you that that one of the most vulnerable moments that I've witnessed, right? I mean, I watched her face changed. I watched her instantly feel so much gratitude and feel so much better and different about herself. It was like an energy wave and I felt it. Yeah. And I got to be a part of it. And she was vulnerable enough to open herself up to have that moment, right? And I got to witness it with her. And yeah, I just, um, that's pretty, that's pretty It was cool.

To have that moment with someone. It's so personal. It's so personal. And it felt like an honor for me that such an intimate moment would be shared with me, right? Could be shared with me. We're like two people coming together to get this one thing done. And we both felt gratitude in the end. And it was fucking real.

It was real. And I think the older I get, the more I realize that the respect that I have for how powerful tattoos are continuously grows. The respect I have for tattooing grows exponentially every day. I feel the same way. I mean, just becoming closer and closer to the world of tattooing has made me a much more thoughtful judge of what it all is. In the same way, music, I used to be a lot harsher of a critic until I started working on this side and helping bands develop and helping them go after their dream and seeing some fail, seeing people go through the hardship of what it means. I don't know how we have success in this business. I know we try. We try and we try and we try

again. But it soberes you up from your snap judgments of people and things. And I know on Inkmaster we have to judge in the moment. And there's a fun aspect of that. And there's a game. the competition of it all is exciting and all that. But like as a whole, I think you forget how important art is, but then tattooing in particular, I know what it gave me. I feel forever, what's the word. I feel forever grateful that I had it at the time I needed it. I needed it so bad. And me and my brother, I remember when we were like 16 and we were like, just, Little dorks. Okay, that's mean.

That's me being mean to myself. We were like sweet kids. Dorks are cool too. Yeah. But we were like sweet, we were sweethearts. Yeah. Had it been through a lot. We had just been through a war.

Yeah. For the last 16 years. And we finally had some freedom to make decisions. Yeah. And we were like, we're going to get tattoos. And we got our first tattoo. Then our second tattoo. You guys didn't get the same tattoo.

Did you? The first two were the same. Matching Taddy? Yeah, first two. And I remember feeling better about myself for the first time ever. And think about that. Like, I don't care what anyone else says. I don't care how lame you think that is.

I don't care. I needed it. And I don't know that I would be the man I am today and I would have the success I have today if those two kids didn't do something and do it fast. Absolutely. To make themselves feel better, stronger, more in their body, more power. That's why I take, that's why I don't ever throw away tattoos. I never throw away tattooing. I never throw away. Like when someone says, hey, look at my tattoo. I look and I cherish it with them. Yeah. It never gets old to see someone proud of their like tattoo they got. Because you know that it's a moment, it's a moment for you. It's a moment for that person where they became a little bit more of themselves, right? Yeah. Like every single time I get a tattoo and I've been getting tattooed now for almost 20 years.

That's crazy. 20 years? Yeah, I'm 37. I started getting tattooed at 18. It's almost 20 years. All right. We'll be right back. We have a commercial.

Hey, what's up? Artist-friendly listeners. As you know, or maybe you don't know, I host a TV competition called Inkmaster. And a new season is now streaming. The OGs and Young Guns are going tat to tat in this epic battle now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Go to Paramount Plus.com to try it for free.

What's mine? You were 16, right? 17 when I finally got one, so 45. We're both here counting. 17 and 20, 3rd. 28. 28 years, yeah. That's neat.

Is that crazy? Crazy. But all these years later, right? Like 20-some years later, you still feel that way when you get a tattoo. To this day. You still feel that way. Never gets old. And you're like, like, like,

Every time I get tattooed, I'm like, oh my God, I'm like so embarrassed that I was walking around for the, you know, last 37 years of my life without this. Yeah. Right? I can't believe I've been going in public without this. This is who I ain't. Those knees. Empty knees. What are those knees?

Ew. Fucking hate those knees. But that's that part of me I still got to work on. Yeah. It's like, of course I'm going to get him tattooed, but that's not why. Now it's a different reason. Totally. but I remember my knees were one of the first things I got tattooed.

You know, you want to know what? I tattooed my own knees. Did they hurt? Did they hurt? Like this. Yeah. It hurt. But I was apprenticing and no one trusted me enough.

And I was like, I get it. I get it. But the first parts of my body that I got tattooed were the parts that I hated the most. And the experience that I had was that, you know, I've always been self-conscious about my knees. I was always self-conscious about my feet for some reason. Really? Yeah. They're great feet.

They're great now. Thanks to the tattoos on them. I'm gonna. And like my music, my cabello can be able to keep my rhythm. For so,

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P-R Records. Foot tattoos are super cool. Totally. I just heard of they hurt a lot. They heard a lot. But what I realized was that, you know, I was getting these parts of my body tattooed that were my least favorite parts of my body, right? And then after I would get them tattooed, they would instantly do a 180 and become your favorite.

My favorite part of my body. And I started to love myself because I realized I was able to change. I was able to take control and change something I didn't like about myself and choose what went on it and choose what I wanted it to look like and it made me feel so powerful. Powerful. And it's just incredible what they do for people. And the coolest thing, I think about this all the time too. How many people are on the planet right now? Eight billion. Is that correct? Yeah, it is. About eight, eight and some change. So if there's... Okay, we're a seven point nine. billion. Okay. As of 2022. As of 2022. So it's probably eight. So if there's eight billion people on

the planet, eight billion, statistically, you know, there's probably a lot of similar people to you somewhere in the world, right? Yeah, yeah. Similar. Doppel gangers. Doppelgangers, right? And it makes sense. But you are the only person that has ever existed with that combination of art on your skin. It makes you truly, truly, truly one of a kind. I never thought about that. Think about it. There's never been another person ever in existence in the history of humanity that has ever looked exactly like that, ever.

It's fucking cool. It's cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's like your tattoo fingerprint. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah, it's powerful.

It's powerful what you get to do. I feel the same way about music. You write a song and you never know where it's going to live. You never know the ripples it's going to have in the world, but someone somewhere heard that song on the right night at the right time and they did something positive where they thought something different or they changed something. All those ripples you could never quantify, you could never possibly do the math on what that art meant at that time and the effect it had on that one individual out there

and what they did with their life and who they touched, that's the part of art, that's the wild, unquantifiable, magical part of it. You know what I think the most magical thing about music is, actually? What? You guys, you guys. Like, what musicians are doing is they're creating art for themselves, right? Yeah.

But in turn, they're creating the soundtrack to people's lives. Yeah. And so when people look back and they think about their memories, they think about their experiences. Most people have a song in their head or an album in their head. And so people's lives are defined by those things, right? The soundtrack of the life is, you know, the soundtrack to the movie. That is your human experience.

Yeah, well, they say art imitates life. Movies have soundtracks. We pick songs for our wedding song that we dance to. The song that you share with your kid, because somehow they got to know that song, and then you sing it. And now every time you hear it for the rest of your life, you're going to remember when your kid was two.

I still remember there was a couple songs my daughter would sing in the back of the car. She was like three years old. Yeah. She'd sing with their little voice. And somehow that was the song. Yeah. Right? It was this, uh, only know the light when you're feeling low.

Only no time when it starts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She used to sing that little chorus. So we'd play that song. Yeah. We didn't even particularly like, I mean, it's a good song. then it became special to it. But that's exactly it.

It becomes special because of the moment that you all connect with it, right? It bonded all of you and it became the glue that held you together for that energetic, that you, the exchange that you got together, right? And so even you talking about your daughter and that song, I have this memory. It's not just one. Growing up, you know, for years with my mom every single time in the car. Because we always listen to the radio, you know, even like I don't remember ever listening to CDs with my mom or even cassette tapes. It was the radio, right? And every single time Cherry Bomb

came on by John Mellencamp, every single time my mom would say, this is my favorite song. And she would really love it. And it was such a beautiful moment in hindsight every time because I watched her in her happiest, right? I watched her in her purest just, even if it's just for those three minutes, she's truly happy and content. And when I look back, I don't know. I don't know. it's just such a special thing and it was that it was that song that I think we all have that especially if we grew up in a house with people who struggled to figure shit out yeah my parents could never get it together but I remember when my dad came home and put on I just called to say I love you by Stevie Wonder and like grab my mom and they had like this happy dance in the living

room I'll never forget it yeah and that song always takes me back to that moment that I felt it. It was like a sigh of relief, a happy, hopeful, lovey feeling that it gave me to see them interacting that way and to hear the song. That song, it never fails. When I hear that song, it makes me feel that way. It'll always, any love playlist I ever have, that song's on it. Yeah. Because it makes me feel like that. It's absolutely that five minutes back there in that house in the middle of the woods in that living room. Yeah. And who's to say, like, which five minutes or two minutes of your life is the most important?

Who's to say? Like, who's to say? Like, we don't know which moments in our life really shape these parts of us. Yeah. But I really do believe that, like, we're shaped by experience. And those experience happen in short bursts of these little moments, two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, whatever. And then those make up the biggest part.

of us. Our perception of love, our perception of danger, our perception of all things. Are those first like seven to ten years of experience? And I bet you you could track songs with almost all of them. Yeah, absolutely. That one, I always think like there's a couple key songs like that, but they just take me right back. Instantly, it's a snapshot. And you probably remember like what the lighting was like and the smell of it and how you felt. It's, Yeah. I mean, we've talked many times before about how tattoos are kind of that way too, right? And, you know, you could look at any of your tattoos that you have any single one. I look at this one. I could tell you everything about that day. I could tell you like how I felt what the exchange was like, what the experience was like, probably what I was listening to at the time. What were you listening to? This one was probably bright eyes. I listened to a lot of bright eyes. I like bright eyes. I love, love Brett.

I think Bright Eyes might be one of my top three most influential, important music loves of my life. Connor Oberst. Connor. Yeah. Yeah. I've never met him. I'd like to talk to him, though. I think he's probably a very interesting guy.

I'd like to talk to him too. But then I realized, actually, I had this thought in the car today. I realized, like, but what would I say? I don't know. Because it would just be me wanting to talk to him for my own selfish reasons. nothing to do with a connection between him and I or any sort of exchange. It would be too forced and then I actually don't want that. That's why I like this show.

Yeah. I get to have people on and it gives me like a space and time to connect with someone that I, and it's interesting because it's not every single person on this show. They all are here for different reasons. So, but I'm always interested in like seeing like what, like, what makes this person so special because I know they're special and I want to find out and you always find out. You always see like I see why you have done what you've done. Yeah. I got to see that about you on Inkmaster because I've been around you for this will be our third year. We've gotten spent enough time

that I go, oh, I know why she made it, you know? Yeah. Because it's hard. Yeah. But you find out with each person like, oh, I see why you made it. Yeah. And it's different with everyone obviously. But I think that one underlying factor is drive. You got to have drive. It's drive. Drive to follow whatever dream it is that you have. Like you have to really feel it and have that ambition and prioritize that part of you that needs to make this thing happen.

Yeah, I always say to my kids, you'll get what you want if you're willing to do what you have to do and be as uncomfortable as you have to be while you're doing it. And if you really want it, you'll stick it out and you'll get all the way there and you'll get it. The only reason you give up is you somehow have negotiated with yourself that it's not worth it. And this stuff I like because people listening are all living their lives and going through their lives and doing different things and trying to achieve their own version of happiness and success. If you're trying to be married or you're trying to build a business or get a higher position at your job or your health. in fitness or your personal relationships, you know, like everybody has their own thing. Some people struggle to make friends.

Some people struggle to meet people and date. Some people would stop at the first fence and go, I can't step over this fence. It's too high. In reality, it's not too high. It's just got to show up again and again and again and again and again. And everybody has some fence in their life that they could walk over. but for whatever reason they've decided that it's too high, it's too hard. Yeah.

And that's what I think I always have to work on is like, where am I doing that to myself? Where am I putting a block that I've decided it's impossible and the discomfort I feel looking at this fence is not worth it to get that. Right. So. I think I'm at this point right now where my personal block, the block that I'm having is that I'm having a hard time figuring. out what it is that I want now, right? You and I have had a few conversations about how we've come from where we've come from, you know, we... It's called nothing. It's super similar roots. Come from nothing. Come from nada. And, you know, we've done it.

Build lives. Big lives now. Yeah. And for a long time, I always had a really black and white straight set of goals of things that I wanted to do, right? I wanted to go to FIT. I wanted to get a job. I wanted to do all these things. I wanted to tattoo. I wanted to go any. I've always not had a long list for the next 10 years planned out, but I've always achieved everything I really wanted to achieve.

And now I'm at this point where it's like everything I could have possibly imagined that I could want in my life that would fulfill me I've achieved now, right? Not in a cocky way, in a very grateful kind of way to the point where, I think you said to me once who were like, I've achieved everything I've really tried to achieve. I have a beautiful family and I have all this love and luck in my life. And you said everything from here on out feels like a bonus round. Yeah. Right?

It does. And for me, it's like I feel so lucky and so grateful that I've gotten to do everything and that my life is what it is. It's so much gratitude that I'm almost lost now a little bit because I'm almost like, this is all, even this sitting here with you, this is bonus round. It's bonus round. I feel fucking lucky and grateful. And it's just in terms of the trajectory of what's next.

I don't know. Yeah, I would say, because I totally understand, and I'd say that every person has those moments in their life where they feel, it's a bit like a fog in front of us. Yeah. And it's hard to lean in any direction because I can't feel which direction I should lean in. And someone said to me, in those moments, sometimes sitting in one place is actually the only thing that feels right. Yeah.

And then find the peace and patience of like just being. And then it comes. Yeah. And I was like, that's bullshit. What are you talking about? Because I've been there. And then suddenly one day something catches your eye. Yeah.

And it feels exciting. the like mantra is something like pick the most exciting available option to you at the time and do your very best with it and then the road will unfold yeah every step of the way if you're choosing the vibration that is like yeah the best vibration now the cynical person listening that's maybe maybe they have a job they don't like and they they have to pay their bills with that job. I understand that the reality of life on your way is like, I have to do what I have to do until I don't have to do it. What I would say to that is, is start to imagine a life where you don't have to do it and what does that look like. Totally. And then start hedging in that direction

and setting your life up to get out of the situation where you're doing what you feel you have to do that you don't like. Yeah. And it's a process because especially if you've dug yourself in so deep, You know, there might be someone listening that's like, I've been at my job for 15 years. What are you talking about? Yeah. I don't have any other options. I understand that feeling. You have to open your mind to the possibility that that might not be true.

And if it wasn't true, what would that look like? Mm-hmm. And start to imagine that as an exercise and then see where that takes you. Yeah. And it's like, it's not so simple sometimes, but it is in constant. of like what feels the most exciting and best feeling version of my life. And then how do I move towards that? Like reverse engineer it, right? Yeah. Like break it down almost. If it were simple, how would it work? Totally. And take out reality. All right. Just like, I always like, like, I have

these conversations with people. Yeah. Fucking street sometimes. Especially like artists who are trying to make it. A lot of times are like, how did you do it? And I'm like, it's not so simple. It's 30 years. of just heading towards it. Yeah. And there's down years where we're the lamest thing on the planet and no one fucks with us and no one picks up the phone. And then suddenly it swings back and everyone's like, you guys are, you're just kind of riding these waves.

Yeah. But still leaning into what I think is the best possible version. What is that? Imagine what that is and believe it's possible. I think something that like how you described it as almost sometimes we look up. and we're in the fog, right? And you're almost like going like this with your arms being like, where is it, where is it? You know, what am I trying to find?

And what I've been realizing recently is sometimes it's not out there. Sometimes it's in, it's inward. And I've been for so many years experimenting with this reality on an outward level, right? Because the one thing I can tell you for sure about myself is through everything we've been through and everything I've achieved and all the hardships and the great moments and all of that, I've always somehow retained a really strong sense of self. Yeah, I know that.

Self. Yeah. And I think I was always so content with knowing deep down, deep down in my soul who the fuck I am, right? And not like Ryan, not this color hair, not these clothes, not what I, like Ryan, that voice, that inner child voice inside, what that is, right? and I was always so content with that person that I really played with the outside world.

And now I feel like maybe it's time again to go back into this cocoon phase, into this evolution, and leave everything on the outside world and go back inside again and try to evolve that core self, you know? And then I feel like the rest will kind of reveal itself at some point. I agree with that. I think sometimes if we sit and wait, I always say we don't have to make a decision until we have to. Yeah. So if I don't have to make a decision, I'm not making it. Yeah.

And then when I feel like I am ready to, or I have to. So sometimes dealing with me can be a little frustrating because if I don't have to give you an answer, I'm not going to. Until the last minute. Until I'm ready. Yeah. Or I have to. Oh, I know. We've done two finalities together already.

Yeah. I've done enough TV in my career to like know enough about TV. Yeah. Inkmaster is the best set I have ever been on. My co-workers are all cool. Totally. There's no egos. We have, you know, we care for the artists that are there because they're like, they're like

tattooing for fucking 12 hours. Yeah. And then you're like, these poor kids, they're fucking done. Yeah. And then we have to, but we have to make the show and like the critical parts of the competition, we nail them. And then in between we, we have fun. And we like, we do what you show.

do when you're making like television. Television and people watch at home and they're being entertained. Yeah. Well, the coolest thing I think about our crew and Inkmaster is that we all take our jobs really seriously. 100%. We take our jobs seriously. And the rules are serious. And the rules are serious. Yeah. But it's because, you know, for us as tattooers, it's like we get the honor of being a representation of the opinion of, you know, tattooers all over the world. The industry. The industry. We get to be the voice of the industry and so the respect that we have for that is monumental, right? But along with that, I think we've respected enough to know when it's time to turn it on and when it's time to turn it off and when it's time to just hang out, like just fuck around, right? And I think we try to make

all of the other moments as fun as it could be. And I really do think we take advantage of them. You know, we have really thought-provoking, insightful, moving conversations, you know, definitely weekly. Sometimes, you know, for a few days in a row, we'll like have this ball rolling of this cool combo and we all get so tingly and inspired. And as far as the filming Inkmaster, the crew, the set, all of that, I can't tell you very many things I don't, not just like, but love. Like, it's stellar. The producers legitimately care about what's going on. Like, there's, well, you know, there's been times where we've had eliminations and the producers will actually shed a tear because it's, you get really invested in everyone and everything. And it's such a cool family. It's such a cool

supportive dynamic. Yeah. Are you excited for this 16th season? I think for me, one of the hardest things I've dealt with in the last few years is the career mom balance. Yeah, that's hard. It's really hard. I always wonder how you do it. Same. Same. You and me both. Yeah, there's no manual, really, it's just a daily thing because the way I love my art, the way many artists love their art, it's all encompassing. Before I had my son, Atheus,

I was an artist and that's how I define myself for real. It's how my brain works. I, you know, wake up in the morning and I'm desperately want to continue this piece. I think about it all day. I see it in my head as I'm going to sleep. It's consuming. It's like all you can think about.

All you can think about. And as an artist, I've always been that way. Same with making a record. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's consuming. It's invasive almost. And then having a theist, my son changed everything. For a while, it was like I couldn't even create art because it was so, it was such a new experience. It was also a very all-encompassing experience bringing a child into the world. And I've been struggling with the balance of it because it's not like I could check out for three days and stay up late smoking cigarettes and paint till 4 a.m. and sleep. And that's how I created art. That's how I created art. I'd stay up all night by myself, get in the zone, get, you know, and that's no longer a possibility for my life now. Right.

And so, whenever we've gone to film Inkmaster, in the past, I've had to leave a theist for the duration of the filming, which is a long time. Crazy. And you know, you've seen me go through like little panic moments, little anxiety moments and everything. and it because I just can't, my brain can't wrap my head around not being with him. But then I had other moments of freedom where I know Atheus is at home, he's safe, he's sound, he's taken care of. Now I'm going to make the most of this for my family and everything and I'm going to kick ass and I'm going to get into this. And now this year, this is the first year Atheus is coming to set. That's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. And I'm so relieved and so happy, but it's my world's

colliding. It's my two different worlds, my two separate worlds colliding now. Right. How does that make you feel? I'm excited. And I never, I never get necessarily fearful in life about things. I have moments of doubt that are, that are momentary because I try to identify it, break it down, figure out why I feel that way and all of that. It's just, it's like you're coming upon something really new that you haven't really experienced before. Yeah, it's something you've never had to do before. Yeah. You've done this and you've done that. Totally. But have you done this while you do that? And now instead of, you know, coming off the Inkmaster set and, you know, coming back and hanging out and doing this and that, I go into mom mode. Going into mom mode. And I think that balance is going to be really, really interesting

to see how I do. It's a new test for myself, definitely. Life puts, us right where it wants us at the time to discover something we need to discover. And somewhere in the past like three years only, Inkmaster's part of it. But all the things, you know all the stuff I do. It all has taught me something because I started learning to not try to control every aspect of the result, of how fast we get the result, of what the result should be, what I should you doing when I'm there. And I started to just go, okay, life always puts me where it wants me. And I always learn something whether I want to or not.

I absolutely agree more than anything. I think it's, and I also think it's up to us to understand the synchronicities of things. Totally. How things like, remember when we started filming season 14 and all of us had the same numbers tattooed on our fingers and we were all like, we're here for a reason. And all of us were being like, look, this is, you know. Oh yeah, you have the nine. I have a nine on the...

Yeah, yeah, the fucking... It was crazy, dude. It was all the same numbers. It was... But little things like that, I mean, some people are spiritual, some aren't. Everyone has different beliefs. I believe that everything is energy, right? And it is.

That's not a fucking la-la sort of concept. It's not even spiritual. It's energy. That's what it is. And there's an ebb and flow to everything. And, you know, when there's a spark, there's a reaction and things happen the way that they do in line up. And I think you have to trust in the universe as long as you're happy with yourself.

Yeah. That in itself is a really hard thing to do, right? And it's fucking scary. It's really scary. Trust in anything but your own control. Totally. It's fucking scary. Totally, especially because sometimes you teeter this boundary between like letting go and

trusting the universe and just letting the waves kind of take you, right? Who's fraba? Right? And being like, wait a minute. I've been so loosey-ducy. I don't actually have my hand on the wheel. I'm not actually controlling anything, right? Because for me, I'm in this point right now being like, I'm on this raft in the ocean being

like, woo, this is cool. I'm getting a little sick. What do I grab onto now? Right? And I'm looking to take back control to grab onto it because you have to trust in the universe, but you can't let it take you to a place you don't want to be as well. Yeah, totally. You know where my mind goes?

In my mind, I had so many responses just go, I bet, because you have good, good. Good answers. It's quick. My mind immediately went to this when you told me that. I don't know why I thought about this. I thought, what if Atheist is like meant to be like a big director or a big TV star or a big like, and like what if this experience at this young age somehow is meant for him. Yeah.

In his like destiny and like you're just the vehicle. what if like the story that's being written like in my story I'm like oh my like this is how I really feel like I'm writing my story what if my story is I'm just a footnote in like my kid's story you know what I mean what if like my whole accomplishment is just to be a footnote it made me tingly look it gave me goosebumps no I did like I don't I don't know why I thought about it be I don't know why I thought about it because what we're doing is important. Like, I love making the show. But then I thought about it for some reason. I was like, what if this kid is meant to be here for some reason? And he's like going to get something. And like his story is the one that we're all just like a footnote in. And like, it's because

I don't think it's wrong for me to go. I'm going to write my book. How it's going to read. I have to make it the best I can be. I got to go for it. I got to like love myself. I got to try my best. I got to go for it and try to be all I can be. And then there's also this like part of me that like goes also. What if all of that is to be a footnote in my daughter's story. Yeah. No, that that whole thought and concept in general just legitimately like like I took a few breaths that were like it felt like actual inspiration. It was yeah.

That's dope idea. No, it just like bloomed in my mind when you said that. It's fucking cool. Actually. I love that. It's super sick. Cool. because think about some of the main core building blocks on why you are the way that you are

is because of your parents and their choices and things that that's your most core foundation. That's the beginning that you have, right? Yeah. And so looking at it from the perspective of like, I'm all worried about like, me, me, how am I going to do this? Which is real. Which is real. But that's also very 3D. Yeah.

And if you're zooming out and thinking it from that higher perspective that you just did, it's like instead of you know thinking of myself like being inspired to see what it could do for a theos or what sparks will be ignited and setting my focus more on how can we share this experience together you're right for the max it's dope that just made me so happy but also like those both matter yeah your career your life has always got to be everything you have has to go into it yeah to be all you can be somehow in the middle we also have to give everything we have to our kids which is really hard sometimes. You always feel like you're falling short. But the real purpose of this show is for people to come and be themselves so that we can all sit around and get to know each other.

And then everyone should get comfortable with the idea that we all have a different perspective and like, it's okay. There's room for it. But we should. We should all have a different perspective and we should all listen to each other because that's how you change and evolve and different neurons connect and I think the most important thing is the intention behind the intention behind the words that you say it's like to hurt anyone of course not yeah and you give them amazing tattoos thank you thanks Brian thank you I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly if you really liked it you can follow like subscribe to the show anywhere you listen to podcasts Spotify Apple Amazon we

appreciate your support and we'll see you next time Bad times I don't