Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Sarah Barthel of Phantogram

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Sarah Barthel of ⁠Phantogram⁠. Phantogram’s fifth studio album, Memory of a Day, hinges on nostalgia, compiled with the idea that certain sounds can send you back in time while simultaneously employing the kind of crisp production and hard-hitting beats that makes them sound from the future. Since its release last year, the electronic-rock duo have stayed busy, appearing on Jimmy Kimmel, touring with Open Mike Eagle, and preparing to hit the road again in August. In a conversation with Madden, Barthel reveals how she uses art to express emotion, the band’s dedication to creating a unique sound, and their upcoming summer tour with Deftones. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with Singer-songwriter and one half of the Platinum Certified Duo Fantagram. Sarah Barthel. Let's go. I don't want to bed times. I don't want to have bad. Thanks for bringing Leroy. Yeah, of course. Thanks for hanging with Josh the other day. It was great. I heard you guys talk for like 18 hours. We did. We were probably like two hours. Jesus, I mean. And you know, at first I didn't know that I didn't know if he would talk that much. Well, this is.

But then I like started, I started my wheels going. This is the thing with Josh. And I know him very well, but he's very, like, he's very shy and kind of standoffish and kind of like people like have a little bit of judgment. Like, is he like too cool for school? Yeah, he's cool. But he's cool. He is really cool. Yeah.

Yeah, he's super cool. But he's also like the most. incredible. He loves chat. He'll talk we'll talk for like hours and hours about our feelings. There's some depth in there. Oh yeah. He's got feelings. He does. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very

he's a very sweet guy. Yeah, he's awesome. But at first you're like wow, this guy's cool. I don't know. Would you guys talk about? Oh my gosh. Cool stuff? Probably just all the cool stuff. Well at first it started really cool and then where did it end? And then we just started opening up and talking about I don't know. I mean, we talked We talked about feelings a little bit.

We talked about how we think the universe works, I think. Okay. And he talked about you, about how much he likes you and how great you are. I can tell you guys have a very long, standing, deep friendship and almost like familial relationship. Like you guys have been through life together, it feels like. Like everything. Yeah. Everything is pretty wild to be that close.

to a human being. Well, it's rare that you can have relationships like that that stand the test of time in the sense of like from our adolescence to adulthood through also being in a creative relationship with someone, being in a business relationship with someone and then having the experience of what it means to be like to have an artist's career and do that with someone. It can go really well. it can also go really bad. Yeah.

No. I mean, we've had all of it go right and go wrong just at different times. The spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but also looking back on it,

it's a trip because we've fully survived. I mean, we dated for six years. Yeah, he told me that. Yeah. We were good friends in high school. And then,

come here, but take a seat. We were good friends in high school. And then I went away, I went to college. and he went down to New York and he played in a band with his brother and then we met back up

on like Christmas Eve at church just so wild it's very serendipitous my mom always claims it to be like she was the reason that started the whole band because she was like you gotta go to church when you were home from college

yeah it was a college yeah and he he was there and then so we met back up And we always, come here, buddy. Maybe you can tell him. What's up, Leroy? You can do it every you want, Leroy. You can hang.

Yeah, there's no wrong thing Leroy could do. Yeah, he's going to want to sit on your lap. Yeah, he can totally. Yeah, he definitely does. He wants to stare at me, I think. I'm going to look at. There you go. There we go.

How's that? Is that good? There we go. Cool. He's interviewing me. Okay. Does this distract you? No, no, it's great.

It's awesome. Okay, so yeah, we met back up Christmas Eve. Then we started dating. We dated for two years and then started the band. And then the band survived four years. So six years of us dating. And then it all kind of just fell apart right at like the moment that we finally like were getting to a space.

It was like when we released. our biggest song when I'm small. The music video, it was like, those tears in the music video are real. So you guys were breaking up. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow. Yeah. So those were, the emotion channeling was actually just like, legit, real. So when you were forming the band, there was, it was kind of also like, It was all wrapped up and it was all mixed up. So it was a romantic relationship was forming or developing.

Or wait, no, you dated for two years and then you started the band. During the two years you were dating, were you talking about starting a band? Or was he producing and you were like, I'm thinking about it? Or like, how did that decision go, oh, let's do the band? We, Josh had, he was making beats and just working on music. and I fully was obsessed with the beat tapes that he was just making. Yeah, he's very good. Oh, it's like, I mean, full on original motherfucker.

Yeah. Just full, I mean, the beats that no one has ever heard before are still timeless and relevant that if we, if we like release them now, it would just be like, wow, this is so fresh. Yeah. So good. So he was doing that. And he asked me to sing on a song that, uh, that, uh, that, he was working on. I was like, yeah, sure. I mean, I love singing, but it was never really a thing

that I was expecting to pursue it. It wasn't like an aspiration. I mean, it was always a dream, but I didn't really think that I could do it. I wasn't a, it wasn't a, and not in a bad way, but I just, I just wasn't like fully supported as a like, oh, right, you got a passion. Let's get you to it. Right. Like, that wasn't a pathway presented as like something that felt like, oh, that's a real pathway. I could be a singer. Yeah. Right.

No, it was just a hobby. Right. You know, it was like a, but also a hobby that I didn't really want anyone to know. But he asked me and I was, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. And it was so fun. And especially, like, since we were in a relationship, it was just, you know, the magical connection you have with an artist that, as you know, writing something and working. on something with someone is even beyond just love with a person.

Yeah, it's a whole different thing. Whole different thing. But just as magical as you could say like there's romantic relationships, there's friendships, there's different partnerships. And making art with someone and creating with someone is like a very like, I'm not trying to be dramatic, but it's a very intimate, cool, fun, magical, special. It's all the things like when you do that. with someone and you have like chemistry. Yeah, very magical. Yeah, it's real. Yeah, it's real. Yeah. I mean,

you have that with your brother. Absolutely. Which is, you know, kind of, very similar, I would think. Yeah. Especially being a sibling and you guys growing up together. I would think. Yeah. He's more than just my brother. He's like my best friend, my partner, my other half and creative thing we have together is like, it's what's different. Which is also wild because he's, you, is your twin. And he's my twin. That's, insane. It's weird. I can't even. But we don't even think of ourselves as twins. Of course you don't. It's just like we're just a duo. Yeah, it's fucking sick. Yeah. So did Josh kind of like push you towards your dream? He yeah. I mean, he taught me how to do, he taught me how to write. He taught me how to produce. He taught me how to record, taught me how to play. He taught me how to connect. Because I'm a visual. I was

visual artist. I was doing that kind of stuff in college. My dad was a photographer. So I was very influenced by like wanting to live up to his name. And that was what I was kind of expecting to do. I don't know. Interesting. So you were in a creative house. It's not like you were in a house where they were like science or nothing. No. No. I mean my dad, yeah, my dad was a photographer. It's like a ski photographer. in the model world. Oh, wow. A big photographer. It was well known.

He was successful. Yeah, successful. Yeah. He got sick when I was young. So it was never like a, you should follow me and do, it was more of a like he passed away when I was a teenager. And I was like, I'm going to do that. Because what else should I do?

That's tough. Yeah, yeah. It was wise. To lose your dad and you're a teenager? It was wild. He had a brain. tumor that grew in his frontal lobe for about 10 years, maybe 11 years, and we didn't know. Yeah, we didn't know it affected his personality, though.

So he was this, you know, prolific artist, you know, like life of the party, you know, the funniest guy in the room, loved life to cut to 10 years. he, the tumor fully took over his frontal lobe and he was a full asshole. Wow. Like a dickhead. And you didn't even know. We didn't know. Wow.

Because it was so gradual. It was so gradual. And so it was like the only way we knew was when he had a seizure. And he was driving, had a seizure. And then he got diagnosed and we were like, oh, that's weird. Holy shit. I mean, every time I do tell the story, it's kind of hard to believe. But yeah, so, yeah, he passed away when I was 17.

Sorry. Thank you. Yeah. 10 years of experiencing something that you don't know you're experiencing. Yeah. And then on the other side of it, after you lose your parent, I'm sure that is something that takes a long time to work out. Yeah, tens of thousands of dollars of therapy. Yeah.

Like coming to terms of that is like, you got to give that credit. Yeah, for sure. Do you feel like the music was part of that too? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things I realize, you know, I think just learning about yourself in general with therapy. I'm a huge advocate. Me too.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't miss it. It's a, no. I have it this evening. Yeah. I'm not missing it. It's a game changer.

But yeah, it's scary to learn about. yourself and why you choose the things you do and what you do because of what happened to you because you didn't know what was happening until you until later on you're like oh so that was weird huh oh and how organic we are like we have quirks and things that like make us us it's not that we would change those quirks even but we got them yeah from growing up through the cracks i i mean i wouldn't change a thing when i like you say i can say that but also I'm like, I mean, that'd be kind of cool to have a dad and stuff. Exactly. Like if I could, if I could change it, I would.

Yeah. I really would. I would change. I had a very complicated relationship with my father. So I made the best of it. And it did give me some strengths. Yeah. It also gave me some weaknesses. Yeah. And so if I could go back and have a storybook relationship with my dad, he's passed away too. but that's okay. If I could go back and just choose, like if we could scroll and choose the experience we want to have with our dad, that's a nice idea. It's kind of like a Black Mirror episode. Because I was thinking about this the other night. I think now we're going into Josh territory.

Yeah, yeah. Do you want to like get in the crack here? Yeah, probably. Get warm? He loves a good crack. There you go. Yeah, we all do. I was watching Black Mirror and I was like, that's so sweet.

He got a little place to. What it kind of shows you is there's always a deficit. There's like margins with everything. And so if we got to choose how our outcomes and control outcomes, we would pay for it somewhere. Yeah, for sure. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it kind of like made me think like it's good to question everything and it's

good to wonder, but if I changed anything about my past, it would change right now. Yeah. And I think right now is where I actually want to be. For sure. Through the work I've done on myself and the time I've invested in my marriage and my life and things I care about more than anything. Yeah. I'm not willing to compromise those things.

Yeah. And so if I go back and change any. it might compromise something. Even knowing that too, which is something that you need to compromise. I mean, I'm sure you can relate of being in a situation of where like the band is everything.

There is nothing we're going to say no to. Because this is what it is and the sacrifices you don't even realize you're making until later on. But also kind of have to make those sacrifices to appreciate. I think just kind of how much work and energy it you gave to something that really means something to you, even though right now it might be just a different perspective. I don't know. Do you have, do you guys have kids?

Two kids, teenagers. Oh, wow. Yeah, 17 and 50. That's wild. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's wild. I know.

I can't relate. I mean, he's my dog, but I, but. It's not for everyone. I'm not one of those people. I'm not one of those people that thinks everyone should have kids. I think that I love my kids. They changed my life. I know what I've had to sacrifice.

And I would do it a million times over. In fact, if I could go back and relive my kids' childhood again, I would. Because it goes too fast. And I feel like I know more now than I did then. And I wish I could go back with what I know now and redo it. Yeah, yeah. Because I feel like I'd do even, I would, I've tried really hard, but I think I'd do a better job. But I'm lucky my brother has a five year old and a one year old.

And he is getting to have the same experience I had with me and his ear going, yo, trust me. Yeah. Say no to that. Just go home and like do bedtime. And like he does it. And he really like, and I was with my kids a lot. Like we stopped touring a few years in. Like the first like three, four, five years of their life, they were on tour buses.

and they were like on tour with us. And it was not good for their family. Right. And then we stopped. Wow. Why was it not good? It was just too hard when they started getting like four or five starting like get to school. Okay.

Things like that. And we couldn't we couldn't have doing it. Yeah, yeah. It's not that no one can do it. I definitely know people that do it. Yeah. But, you know, it's everyone's different. My wife was not.

She grew up with a dad. toured. Right. She was not, she was like, I'm not doing this again. Right. Okay. Yeah. So she wasn't, she wasn't like, I know how this works. We're going to do it the right way. You guys are going to be able to tour still. We're going to bring the kids on. And no, no, she was like, I'm down to make it work if this is what you want to do. This isn't what I want to do, but I'll do it. Yeah, yeah. And so she was supportive. But I don't even think, I actually think I didn't want to do it either. I think I wanted to, like dive all the way in and do the family thing, which I did. Like full stop, music, writing, everything?

Pretty much. Wow. I mean, in that time, I would say over the last, if we say like, let's say 2012, 13, 14, maybe, I would say we made a couple records, but they were more us wanting to just make a record. And so we went out for a month and did a few weeks of shows. But it wasn't like a real cycle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's more just like a little... Like the promotion side. Yeah, go out and do a month of shows and...

I mean, it's exhausting. I can't even imagine trying. I mean, it's weird getting older to... It's weird having this career for so long. You know, we're going on 17 years, 18 years, right? And, you know, as a female getting older, too. It's like, to me, a female in this industry has to... sacrifice a lot more than if they want kids or if they pick the, you know, if they want

the family. I agree with the kids. Yeah. I mean, I've, and I'm aware of that. I know that. It was never, I've always wanted to have kids, but, and it wasn't like a decision for me to be like, all right, I'm picking the career. Like that's where I was.

Yeah, it's not one of the other. I couldn't, I couldn't slow it down. And I wasn't missing anything that I was like, oh, I need to fill this. you know this hole that I think a lot of a lot of people put in into females heads I mean at least me growing up of like when are you going to have your kid right when are you going to when are you going to feel unconditional love like why are you waiting like I think I already feel unconditional love for my friends but am I supposed to think differently should I should I change my my perspective of like because that's just it's normal

It's normal for women to feel the pressure of you're missing something. Yeah. Well, you're told from a young age, everything tells you just by what you see, what you hear, what you watch, what you look at, the ads you see, the this, the that. Everything. The implied message is when you grow up, you're going to have kids. And then you'll be, that will make you the fully developed woman. You'll finally be happy.

You'll finally be, yeah, what a woman is supposed to be. Yes. That's the thing. When I said not everyone should have kids, that's actually what I mean is like we're all kind of told the narrative of successes, this, this, that. And it's much harder for women in my opinion. I have a daughter. I'm very aware and I'm very anxious most of the time that she's being. So I'm telling her the opposite. I'm like, you do what you want. You don't ever have to get married if you want if you want you can if you don't you want to have kids you don't like that's a very personal decision and part of the journey and there's no version of it that's right or wrong

yeah you know what i mean not anymore and it's pretty amazing and i think that that whole narrative and i so i think i'll go further than just in the music industry i think we live in a world where it is so normal to objectify women in every single way criticize women that we don't actually call out as it happens all it happens happening all the time and you know having a daughter that's the thing that I just like am always so angry about and worried about is that she's coming up in this world where everybody just gets to comment on any given thing that she does or says or wears or whatever like and on the other foot as a man you you could you can literally go through life and do whatever the fuck you want yeah and get away with it and by the way i have that privilege i'm like

walking through the world through a man's eyes and realizing like like if you're no one's saying anything about how that guy looks how old he is what he's wearing and nothing and if he has this status or this status he can get away you know it's interesting how like men get away with so much naturally right right and that it is what it is it just how it is i see it and i go like that's kind of the and women are faced with uh the common section every in every which way yeah you know so i'm trying to raise a daughter that is not beholden to that comment section right but how do you i mean she's it's not like you're going to take her phone away no i mean obviously i don't know you can't you can't you can't no idea what no you can't and so you can take a 17 year old's phone away

no it's their whole life i love how i just pictured that though that's not happening it's hilarious like give me her phone i think my partner is an extremely strong person and she has faced all of it yeah just her whole life oh yeah that's right you know so she has a lot of experience with that. Yeah. When she was in her teens, in her teens probably. Yeah. And she got ripped apart.

And still, like, people still, like, are, you know, people make passing comments. And it's okay. And it's just okay. Because, you know what I mean? So there's the rules change, you know, the way the world, I think, is, is there's different rules for different people. So if you're perceived as someone who was born into wealth. Yeah.

So we all have a. perception of you now. Yeah, yeah. If you're a woman who's beautiful, we're perceiving you a certain way. Okay, we can be decent unless if you're this, if you're famous or you're this or you're that, we don't have to be decent. We can all just throw shit at you, talk shit. And so it's interesting how a lot of things slide in to that bucket with women when people are straight up objectifying. I'm straight up attacking them. The rules change based on who the woman is. Yeah, yeah.

Where's she from? Absolutely. What's her, you know? Yeah. I always think about it of just, God, I'm so glad there wasn't the internet when I was in. Oh, my gosh. It's just, cool.

We didn't even know. I wasn't even doing anything bad. I was just, I just wouldn't want anyone judging me. Yeah. I was doing nothing. I was probably playing hacky sack or something. Yeah. I wasn't doing anything bad.

in high school either. I was pretty good kid. I was just, but you don't want anyone looking back at old embarrassing moments and putting them up there and making, you know, trying to shame you for like some dumb, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I,

and this is always a thing too. Brings me back to, you know, the way that Josh and I started the band wasn't, is a completely different time. So we always get asked of, like, you know, fans or, you know, we've meet and greets and stuff.

And they're like, if you could give me one, you know, give me a little bit of advice, just of like, how'd you do it? Like, how'd you guys do it? And I mean, I clearly, you know, you got to just keep going with it and believe in yourself and all those things, but also, like, I don't know how people do it now. Like, we came in the time of, you know, burning CDs and handing them out to people on in coffee shops of like, hey, come listen to us play. Yeah. And then we would play in front of five people.

And either of those people would listen. Well, they would listen. They would tell another five people and build up like that, you know, like the touring and stuff. And now I would like, I don't fucking know how you, how you do it. Like, where are the core fans that will listen to every album that you come out with because they've been following you, you know, because they invested their time in with you. I'm like, I don't know what they do now because the social media is so bizarre to me.

Yeah, it's such a shit show. And gnarrow. And overwhelming the amount of. I wouldn't, there's no way we would. If it was now, we would, there's no way we would be a band. You think so? Absolutely. I don't know.

No. Really? Yeah. I don't think so. I don't think we would have survived. Wow. Because I think artists have to have so many more mountains and journeys to have to figure out and discover and be confident and knowing that you're doing something interesting and believe, you know, like knowing that you're doing something different. I mean, I know there are artists out there that are unique and different.

I'm a fan of a lot of mainstream music or just today's music. but I can't end up just having the brain, the capacity of what is normal now is not like when Josh and I were growing up doing it. I think that I feel the same way as you in the way I relate to it because I think I don't know how to navigate social media very well. I think I found a niche that I'm comfortable. I know exactly what I post and then I feel like, okay, I'm social mediaing. I needed to learn how to do it.

Now, I do it. And that's the capacity. I'm at full capacity. Social media, yeah. I will not have any new tricks. No. I'm doing it enough that I feel like I've competently figured out how I do it. Like, I'm satisfied.

Yep. And so, but I do feel old. Yeah. But I think the young artists that I work with that I see, they grew up in it. They just understand it. like language. They speak the language. It's like a different language.

It's like they understand. They move. They see. They know. And I think it's a generational difference. Yeah. That is, yeah, that's true. But do you think it takes away from time and creativity of learning and growing about yourself and who you are?

I would say maybe for some people. Or it could temporarily put someone elevate elevate. elevate someone into a position that where they're presented as more of an artist than they are. Yes. So I'm not trying to be mean, but I think that there's a lot of ways. But the true artists will always emerge over time, I think. Right. I do.

Do you think the true artists that don't have the kind of, like, I always think about this because, you know, when we started and we're still, I struggle with being a business woman. I struggle with being a boss. Like I don't, I struggle with all. of the things that you're supposed to just know how to do. I kind of wasn't thinking of signing up for all of that. I wanted to just be an artist.

I think the statistic on bosses and CEOs and people in leadership positions is something like 80% of them feel like that. Yeah. It's pretty normal. Yeah. And so where, you know, it's either you're really good at it. You also have to believe in your team and the people that work with you. Yeah.

You got to believe in them. So you kind of have to let yourself go in that space and be an artist. But to me, what is it like now? Because everyone is their own influencer. Like they have their, I'm this and I'm that. And they've grown up to be their own bosses in all of the ways. That's where I, I mean, it's very admirable. That is where I feel old.

Yeah. Me too, by the way. How do, how does that work and be an artist? like to be to be both and knowing that you're doing it because you want to be an artist and you're not just trying to be an influencer does that make sense it makes sense i think that i actually know young some young artists that are not good at social media i think it's different i think it's different things like i think the social media thing is something like it's hard to explain but it's like a mainstream mass interactive shopping mall that we're all told we need to go to and we need to buy

things and sell things there. And so most of us do. And we see the value of it. I think like it doesn't matter if you have a website now. People go to your Instagram and they look at your band's thing and they go, oh, they're going on tour. Oh, there's a link for their shop. There's a link for their.

Yep. And you have your profiles here, here, here. And this is where 80 to 90% of the people that are consuming music content, they're all in these platforms. And so we just need our pages here. And like that's actually the only thing you need is a representation in all those shopping malls. And then there's people in that big shopping mall that we are all in.

And me and you may not go there every day. Yeah. We may like, or we may not. But there are people that are in that mall and they know how the whole thing works. and they're just really good at it. And so they're selling a little bit better. But then there's artists that aren't participating at all, but their music is so good that it's making its way in.

And I do think that the real art, the really good music breaks through and will last and stand the test of time. Yeah. So there's a band we work with that I love. I've known them since they were teenagers, been working with them for over 10 years, called Chase Atlantic, these Australian guys.

they do not give a fuck about social media. They do it almost because they know their fans are there. So they try to give something. Yeah. And they really do care. They're like, let's try to like participate for our fans. And they've gotten better and better and better at it. And they're younger.

They're younger than me. I mean, they're in their 20s. And so they have a very modern way of looking at the world. So by no means are they out of touch? They just don't care. And the only reason they're there is actually they've just amassed this large fan group and the fan groups are there. So they try to plug in and give to those people. Yeah.

But they are not caught up in like comments or anything that anyone they're saying. Like they don't give a fuck. That's amazing. And I see that and I go, they kind of taught me. I thought I needed to be more on social media maybe. But I found like, no, they just engage the way that works for them. Yeah. And they give what they can.

Yeah. And then they may go off for months without. And I just see them interacting with it with no anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Or stress. And they're doing really well. That's awesome.

So I kind of like to take a page from people's books where I see it's working for them. And I'm like, oh, they don't seem stressed about this at all. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That is true. Like I think Mitchell, if I asked him, he'd be like, what? I don't think he thinks, I don't think he cares.

I think he's like, he just wants to make music. And it makes great music. And I kind of like learned a little bit by thinking, oh, I need to do this. I need to be on social media. I need to do this. And then I kind of saw how they treated it. I thought it was really cool. And so I tried to continually try to find my way that I do it and then just be good with it.

Yeah. It's all perspective too of what your, I think what your idea of success is as an artist. Yeah. Of what you're doing. I mean, we've always had the dream, you know, to sell out arenas. you know, all the things. It's still a dream. But it's also really incredible to have, um, the perspective of like, you know, when we were first starting out, it was us in a hatchback and a sob hatchback packing up ourselves and, you know, whatever season it was, winter, you know,

freezing cold, upstate New York, getting a car, driving and doing a, you know, a little five-day tour and being like, fucking doing it. We are, we're a band and we're going to sleep. Yeah, we're a real band. We're crushing it. Yeah. We are, we're going to sleep on a stranger's dirty floor tonight. And it is going to be so awesome.

It's going to be so great. I remember that. Yeah. And like, you know, Josh and I, we always joke about it. But it is true. It's like back then we were just so excited. It's always been. been just the same thing, a little bit more comfortable now, but, you know, like in the microphone

and maybe halfway in the set, be like, all right, well, we're Charlie everywhere, it was our band at the time, Charlie everywhere. And, no, we don't have a place to stay tonight. So come chat with us in the, in the back, in the merch table. You know, you got to get some room, got some room, which was always the weird guy, not the lovely people. It's just like. Yeah, come on it, come on. But sometimes you would get me like, hey, we're having a rager. You want to come and then you can sleep at our place and be like, sure, yeah, I'm not realizing that you have to stay up until they want to go to bed.

Yeah. And it's just, you know, Josh and I, again, like we were dating. Thank God you guys had each other. Also didn't tell anyone that we were dating because we didn't want to be the band that was dating and loved each other and wrote love songs about each other. So we would, nobody ever knew. Wow. Which is a whole different thing.

When did you let people know? We never did. You never did. We talk about it now as a joke. I mean, wasn't a joke. It's a really important time in my life. But we always kind of like to make people uncomfortable and be like, hey, Josh, you want to get back together?

And be like, yeah. It's like, what went wrong? Should we try it again? And people are like, what are you? Is that a joke? Like, are you really dating? Like, is this serious? Yeah.

Kind of are. I mean, six years is a real six years. That's a long relationship. It's a very long relationship. Usually by two, you know where like usually by two or three years, you kind of know which way I think a relationship. So six years is a real like commitment. Real commitment. And then it was exciting too because we.

But you were making it together. We were making it. We're like, let's do this together. We'll be able to travel. We'll be able to see the world. we'll be able to like, I don't know, maybe have a family and maybe buy a place or, but also let's just go to Europe and see Europe like, holy shit. We get to go do that with your favorite human on the face of the earth.

And like, you know, that was, it was the dream. And then to break up and stay a band. Oh, boy. Well, that is a whole different. Like, how do you do that? Because I'm thinking like, well, how did fights go? I don't know how. Are you guys, do you fight, like, do you fight a lot?

Like, how does that relationship work? We don't fight a lot. That's nice. But he is the one human being that will get me to a place where I will say into some nasty shit. Yeah. Like if you, the buttons. Oh, he knows them.

Yeah. And I know him for him. We don't do that anymore. We've, we've learned that isn't really the right way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Therapy helps. Back then, though, in the fucking thick of it. it, you know, when, like...

It's weird how that works. And we wouldn't, we didn't stop. It's so crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah, we wouldn't, we didn't stop, you know, so we kept getting these things. Like, we played, we do these tours and we were in vans. And your bands getting bigger and bigger. We were driving.

We were driving all over the country, nonstop with, you know, a trailer, kind of kept build, like adding a few more people, but all sleeping in the same hotel room didn't have enough money, you know, five of us. And I'm the only chick. Yeah. And I'm. fucking losing it. That's tough. Because we're broken up and I have to see him go through the breakup, the way he is going through it. And I'm going through it my own way. And I, and there's no escape.

And then we got to go play Kimmel. And then we got to, and then I got to keep my fucking cool. And you got to grin and bear it and go out on stage. I couldn't even talk to anyone about that we were actually dating because no one, I mean, are obviously, are like people that tour we toured with knew. Right. Because they heard the fucking fights. But I always think about that time in our careers. Those shows must have been so incredible because those singing and screaming that like me singing performing was straight at Josh. It's like a rock and roll movie. Like I would rather die than to be with you is one of our lyrics to one I'm small, which is I think our most well-known song.

I'm not really sure. One of them. Every night singing that was the. just the fucking pinnacle of like, I hate it. Like, just losing my mom. Like, but thank God I had that lyric. Oh my God. Thank God. We had that song. It's crazy.

Because you guys are such a good duo. Yeah. I mean, that was all. It was, there was a reason. The band came from love, you know. It came from friendship even before we started dating. I mean, we've, we've been in each other's lives for since. Since you were

kids. Since we were four years old. And maybe are your parents friends or something? Became friends. Right. When, you know, we went to the same church. And, you know, Josh's dad would pick him up after school every day at my house because we lived on the street called the Crossroads, which was the main kind of drag where all the kids, you'd leave school, go through the cornfield and the cemetery, and you would end up on our street, which was the Crossroads. And that was, where everyone would hang out. And Josh would be skateboarding

and I'd be jumping on a trampoline and tons of just local, just the neighborhood. I mean, so you knew each other your whole life. Whole life. Just always loved, I mean,

he's just one of just my favorite and always someone I looked up to. I mean, he was a year older than me, but when you're a kid, that's a lot. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, he was the cool music. He was the cool skater dude. Yeah. He liked the Beastie Boys. He shaved underneath his, he had the part in the

middle. Right with the under the shaved side. Or the really baggy jeans. Knew how to skateboard. Also, he was super cute. He was like so hot. He looked like Brandon Boyd in high school. And also all the girls were like, yeah, hey Josh. But he was just so like he was so nice to everyone. He was just the nicest guy. But his dad would pick him up after school. And so, you know, I'd see. I worked at the local grocery stores. You'd come in with his Dad. What did you do at the grocery store? I was the cashier.

I worked at the grocery store. Did you? Yeah, it was the bag boy, and then I became a cashier. Paper or plastic. That's when you had the choice. Good Lion. I'mena. And, like my music, my hair

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your negotiation your new your period of your period of

per per year per a year on shopify at record. How old were

you when you When I worked that job I was 16 Yeah I was 15. Oh wow

that must have been crazy. Yeah, well we had the band we started the band we were 15 and we

had to work jobs from 14 on I was working jobs because I had to help my mom.

Yeah, so we were doing the band and working jobs and trying to finished school and like it was just like the teen years were so hard. Yeah. But that's wild. They gave me such a great appreciation of like work. Oh my God. I mean, yeah. I really liked my jobs.

Yeah. I don't know why. I liked them. I liked earning money. I just liked earning money. Yeah. And I felt like I took a very serious. I did. I tried really hard. Yeah. I remember I slept in once. You were late to work. Yeah, it was like 10 minutes, 15 minutes late. I just cried. I was so, so, Sorry. I didn't mean to let you guys down because I knew the, you know, the other ladies that I worked with. They were all older women, like, retired kind of. And, you know, they're like, they got to go watch their fucking soap operas and shit. And I'm sleeping in. Yeah. I did that once, too. When I was 18, I was the assistant manager at a clothing store. Oh, wow. And it was a really important job to me because I gotten, you know, raised and I was making really good money for what I thought.

Yeah. And I overslept. And I was opening the store. Ooh. It was bad. So how long did you oversleep? Oh, like an hour. Oh.

Yeah. We were playing shows, practicing, trying to figure out how to record all while working and like paying rent and doing it. Yeah, there were no alarm box back then. Yeah. I mean, there was, but if the power went out, you're screwed. Yeah, it was bad. But I was telling Josh, I think it's amazing that your relationship could survive. Yeah.

The romantic period. Again, I also think, not to say you guys weren't meant to be together, but I think like we're taught that if we have a relationship with a woman as a, you know, from the time you're a kid, the only relationship that you're supposed to have with a woman is a romantic one. I think that's the message we get constantly. Yeah. is like, so I think most of the time when you kind of strike up a friendship, you think it's supposed to be romantic.

Yeah. And like, and maybe it was supposed to be romantic. I'm not taking that away. But like the proof of the relationship is that you guys, not only are you business partners. Yeah. Your creative partners, your artistic partners and your friends. And, and something like family. I mean, when you think about what you've been through together and what you've survived,

because surviving a career and not becoming a shell of a person. Yeah. And maybe a drug addict or whatever you want to become to escape whatever this thing does to you, no one can. The only people that know what I'm talking about are people who have lived through a career and the ups and downs and the disappointments and the highs and the lows and the, all the great things it is and all the pain and suffering it is to be an artist for a living. Yeah.

I'm sure there's probably moments where. you sit there and go like, look what we've done. Oh my God, every single day. Or how did we survive? Or whatever the version of that is, it's like, whoa. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty incredible as a friendship. It's wild.

To exist this long and to go through all the things you guys have had. It's pretty special. It's so special. And we're both so grateful for it. If we're like, I don't know, getting on the list to go see our favorite band, be like, hey, isn't this cool? Like, we just can, like, text Mike Mori or agent. and he just puts us on a list, isn't that?

Isn't this cool? Of course. Or like, yeah, this is awesome. Or to, you know, to be able to come here. That's what we would say if he was sitting next to me. Like, isn't this really cool? Like, this is our job. Yeah, this is technically work.

It's to share it with somebody. And I'm so grateful that we've, I don't know how it fucking happened. I honestly, I think it was the universe making, like something, a higher power allowed us to get through that breakup to continue. as a band. I have a theory. Please. And I can respond to it.

It just went, yeah. Okay. So my theory is we won't know all the great talents because most of them quit. Mm-hmm. Zero to. I know. Zero to five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years in, whatever, however long it takes

you to get to the national stage where people go. We all agree. Yeah. And then the group just keeps getting bigger. We like this band. This band's cool, right? You guys have carved out a place in the halls of music. You did it.

So everything else now is just adding on to the foundational legacy that you built over the last 17, 15, however many years. But that first five, six, seven years is so hard. So hard. And so painful. What if your subconscious self, what if you were holding? holding on to each other to get through that because it knew on the other side was this. I love that.

And so I think our subconscious is so powerful that we think we're making decisions because we want something, but it's making a decision to carry us through something. And maybe the only way you would stay together as if you loved each other. Yes. And so in that time, you needed to actually love each other. Yes. to get to the other side of that growing and that pain, the growth arc of the early stages of a career and how hard that is,

sleeping on the floors and the disappointment after disappointment because they said no and this didn't happen. Yeah. You know, it didn't work out like we thought. I also think it's because we knew how much fucking energy and time and effort and sacrifice we put into the band. When we broke up, we were like, ain't no fucking way. This is going to, this is not going to be the end of us.

We're not going to do a little breakup, Stevie Nix. Like, I worked too hard for this shit to happen. And we, not intentionally, but we chose Fantagram. Fantagram was kind of like our child. Right. It was like our child. And we chose it over the, you know, the, I guess, relationship and the comfort and that type of,

person, but at the end of all of it, Josh is like, Josh is still the closest person. I mean, we don't have sex anymore. That's like family. And I don't cuddle. We don't cuddle. I mean, what else is like to me is like I, he's my best fucking friend. He come to him for anything. He's witnessed everything I have ever gone through. And he will continue to witness. Like we are, he is my fucking dude. That's really special. Yeah. It's like family. It's, yeah, it's like family. It's like family, but I think what you're saying about your brother, it's more than family.

Because we've experienced. It's survived. It's like we survive. Survive. Together. Survive together. Got fucking through it. It's so much deeper than romance. It's like, damn, we saw some shit. We saw all, oh, God.

And we share every memory. And the thing beautiful about it is that all of our songs are about the same thing, because we're so close that we're going through the same shit together. And then we get to play and write these songs and perform them. While having the same connection, it's not like, I'm writing a song, but Josh has to sing it, even though he's not really relating to it because it's not his life. We have the same, we have the same brain, the same life, the same everything. Yeah.

And so it's all continued to be connected in like every way. I totally get Vantagram now. You know? But I feel like I told Josh this sitting with you guys so cool, by the way, because I'm a fan. And I have so many friends that are like, oh, that's so cool. I always tell a couple of my friends like, who's coming on the show? That's awesome. And they're like, fuck, that's cool.

This is a cool one. On paper, we look pretty cool, but we are fucking good. On paper, you're very cool. And the music is good. Even the most importantly, like the music is great. And you also could tour with anyone. Like, you're one of those bands. Like, you could tour with anyone.

You fit on so many different bills, you know? Yeah. Which is just says a lot about good music. But talking to each of you is really cool because now I totally get Fantagram. Yeah, yeah. And I get like, but there's real depth there to like these kids who like went off on this journey. Yeah. Made it through making it with your band.

And then on the other side of what you thought was maybe like a romantic relationship. you realize was like your best friend. Yeah. Right. And you're still making music and you're still doing like and probably better than ever. And yeah, absolutely. I mean, now we're smarter. Now we know.

You're probably better live than you've ever been. It's funny how that happens with age. Totally. Yeah. And knowing what to do the right, you know, doing the things that maybe you didn't know to do 10 years ago. And like, you know, growing up in East bum fuck, New York, like upstate New York, like more cows than fucking people.

Josh and I both. grew up on farms. Yeah, not far from Cooperstown. Yeah, not far from Cooper's town. It is bum fuck. Like fucking goats and pigs. That's like where I grew up. Yeah.

In Maryland. Maryland, okay. The same place. Yeah. The East Coast, as soon as you get 30 miles outside of any city, you're in the stakes. Yeah. And that's, you know, I grew up picking fucking berries for fun. You know, I don't, there's not like, and like, I don't know, peeing off of the

off of a bridge. That was sick. Like those types of things. Yeah. Well, I wonder if I could pee off of this. It's a great bridge. This is a great bridge. You know, too. Can we jump? It's too high. We can pee though. Like to that. Throw stuff.

Throw stuff. Coming from that to, you know, obviously now, but, you know, like collaborating with our favorite artist, like big boy, the whole big boy thing. Yeah. It's so cool. Like what? If you, what, excuse me, what? Yeah. Like I thought, you know, I don't know what I saw. I don't think we saw that it was going to be that. Any of that was going to happen.

But when that shit happened, that was a trip. We're like, well, Big Boy is calling my phone right now. What do I do? Is he cool? He's cooler than a polar bear's toe nails. Yeah, he seems like it. He's the fucking coolest human being and the nicest. And just he's my one of my favorite human beings.

Like, we always kind of tie it in, too. Josh and I started being influenced by bands that were unique and outcast. Outcast was top on the list. And we always always called ourselves a Quemini because I'm an Aquarius and he's a Gemini. And Biggs and Aquarius and Dre's the Gemini. But Big and I have this really important relationship for between the two of us where we're very similar and we just fucking make each other laugh. just non-st, like not, he just thinks I'm the stupidest person.

Because I, I, I like to laugh. I love making him laugh. Like, I'll just say anything just to make him, and he'd be like, you stupid. I'm like, yes, I love you. He's the best. He's the nicest dude ever. He seems, I mean, I'm a huge fan.

He seems like he's cool as shit. Yeah. I always thought he'd be nice. Oh. You know how you get a sense of people and most of the time you're right. You're like, I think he'd be cool. And Andre's just unbelievable. I bet.

Like, they're just good solid, like, our, the stankonia and, like, the dungeon family crew are, like, family to us. We've, we've developed a relationship that has solely come from the beauty of, of art and music. And having that, just having that language together, you know, coming from us, he's bum, fuck New York, the whitest person. I'll say me, Josh isn't, I mean, I just, I'm just, just, just, just. goofy, weird, fucking love running in the woods, white person. I relate to you. That's still, I don't know, it's still me. Yeah.

But technically, I'm like a part of the dungeon family. That's pretty cool. But there's just something, the language of music. That's it. Is so powerful to allow something like that to fucking ATL, to stankonia, to, you know, equipment, just outcast and dungeon family to, Josh and I being in the middle of nowhere where there's cornfields and cows. And somehow those, that world's met our world.

That's because you guys are cool as shit and you make original shit. And that's what everyone's looking for. Everyone wants something that's authentic and original. And it's an idea that it doesn't feel like they took that idea and just reprinted it. Like they tried. Like we all get our inspiration from places. But the people who try to do something because they actually want to make something new, those are the ones that stand out.

And that's what you guys do. And that's why you are where you are and where you're going and what you'll do for as long as you want a career, you'll have one. We've always asked ourselves. And people ask, those are some things too. Like the fans will ask us, like, give us some advice. Like, you got to know that you're doing it because you fucking love. it and you want to be different and you want to be you want to make art that isn't being done like why fit in and blend in with all of the same fucking sounds you have to be you have to have your own

lane yeah and that is always what we've been you know like never wanted to sound like anybody else and we don't fit into a specific genre for that reason it was all very intentional and fully believed in our, you know, what we were coming up with and was hoping people were going to get it, but knew we would continue to be fucking trying until they did. And we've kind of been like ahead of the trends, which has been kind of like really interesting to see because it's like you make a piece of art and it's, maybe some people don't understand it when it's being done. And that's cool, you know, and some people do.

And then a few years later they do. A few years later, they're like, oh, fucking what? This is so, like, you should have listened to it before. Yeah. You should have given a chance before. But that's what we always strive for is being the influence. I can feel that. I think there's just something so, oh, it's just, I think it's the definition of who I am as an artist is that if it's being done, I don't want to do that anymore.

Yeah, I've done it. Yeah. and not having to change our sound because we are, we've done, we've done the same, we are the same band. We haven't like reimagined in any way. We're just doing us. Yeah. Would you say you're satisfied?

If you asked me that 10 years ago, I would, I would answer it differently. But I, I think it's all perspective, right? I am so successful because people are influenced by us. Yeah. I think that is, to me, is the perspective of, what an artist's success is when people look up to you and want to try and do what something that you're doing and and become influenced with their own music and want to like and feel collaborate with you and collaborate you know or with you yeah or you know you guys have the

tour coming up with the deaf tones yeah what that's that's like a huge compliment huge so even like you guys who you choose to to tour with when bands choose to tour together, it's a huge compliment. Huge. And that's like one of the highest. That is the high. I mean, they asked us to do their festival a couple of a few years ago. Yeah.

And that was just like, wow, we are so we're kind of cool. Yeah, it's cool. Well, it just says it shows you where your music, like I said before, doesn't sit on just one genre or one type. Like you guys could truly tour with anyone. Yeah. Because it's music. That to me just says music, really music, musical music, music that you don't have to box it up and sell it as something.

Right. It just exists because it's this music. Like that, those are great artists. And so I think you guys going out with deaf tones and then going over here and playing there. Like, it's proof that like music exists. Yeah. As it is. We can fit.

We've played electronic hippie festivals to hip hop. Like we did the roots. festival once and yeah we we can we find we find a space I think to me the success and feeling satisfied is a really I mean there's a lot of answers to that but it's a very respected it's a hard question to even answer it is a question that comes up I think a lot though as a person who has chosen the the career of like all right we're going to let's This is my lane. I'm going to do that.

And part of us is never satisfied because we're always going to be hungry. Right. So we'll eat and then we'll be hungry again. For sure. Tomorrow. And I think that's just kind of as an artist, just like I need a release. I need to make another thing. And you get this shit out of me.

Yeah. And it's cathartic. And thank God I had music before I realized therapy was very much necessary. I don't know what I would have done. Music saved me. Yeah. It saved me from, I don't know if it was myself or from, other people, but it's A-Vy.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. And then I found therapy, and that's great. But I also noticed that if I don't create, I'll realize I haven't created in like a few months. I'm like, oh, shit, I need to like go make something. Yeah. It's almost like working out for different part of your.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. It's so cathartic. It got me through the hardest times I could have imagined. Thank God. I had it.

But and then also realizing after the fact, I'm like, oh, yeah, like I had all these daddy issues and all these other things that I was definitely writing and putting stuff into. I can imagine. Yeah. Because you weren't doing music when you lost your father. No, no. So this was before. Yeah.

Yeah. It just kind of, I don't know, it just came kind of stuck into my brain and that was the normal thing. And it came out in other ways. music luckily was there to release some of it. I feel like that would have the music, everything. I really feel like our subconscious drives us. Like it decides for us almost. Absolutely.

Like me and Nicole talk about this all the time. Our relationship wasn't like a plan. We met each other and it had, it just started unfolding. But it was at a really, we were both, I was in my career like full swing. and she was, it was not like an ideal time to get into like your forever relationship, I guess. I don't know. For sure. But here we are 18 years later and we're like, people like, how do you guys do it?

And we're like, well, we like each other. We want to be together. But I don't know. Just we're guided somehow. And I think that we needed each other. I really, really feel like if I tracked back how I got to her, I think it was my subconscious the whole time. I think so.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that I needed a bunch of things I didn't even know I needed. And that the relationships that I had had led me there in a good way. Like I always think, I actually think I'm like a lucky person that I've only had like good, nice relationships that like felt like they almost protected me along the way. I don't know. Like that's how I see it.

Yeah. Like I only had good experiences of people and like I didn't have any horror stories or anything like that. Yeah. But I ended up right where I'm supposed to be. and then I found my way and then I started doing therapy and I started like working on myself and I got here where I feel like I'm a fully developed person. Right, right, right, right.

And I think our sub, like music got me there. So I didn't start my band. I don't know what would have become of me. And then that carried me to adulthood. Yeah. Which was, I think, hard, like a hard bridge to cross over to, like becoming a fully full grown adult. that's still I can't you know what I mean

and then unpacking all the shit and like going through it I think music was like the vehicle that got me all the way to adulthood

and then my wife was at that by that point I had I think it was when I had kids was when I was like oh I'm an adult I got to be responsible and you know

gotta be the did you guys get married no we just had kids and then we got married, like, later. Yeah, because that's kind of, I feel like that. Yeah, I feel like that's more of the norm too. I mean, my mom and dad, they had a kid before they got married, but. It didn't bother us.

Yeah, no. So this is the other thing is like now modern, like where we are in the world today. We're not old. No. But my parents, when they were my age, we're old. Like, it was a different time. Oldest person I knew. Right.

Like, we're getting like, I thought at 46 I would be like really old. Yes. And I thought I'd no longer be on stage and I would just be washed. Yeah, just like sleeping. And I'm not. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy.

I know. I feel younger. Almost too, to me, when I keep getting older, I'm like, this is still always the, it's like the beginning. Maybe it's a record cycles thing. Yeah. I'm so smart now. Yeah, you're in your prime.

It's wild. The things that I, when I think about it, my 20s. Yeah. You're like, fucking hell, I wish I knew. Me too.

I just didn't. Yeah. I wish I knew some things back then. But I, you know, I do now. I think you guys are hitting your stride

and it's a bigger stride. Yeah, and it's fun. It's so fun. I'm so glad that like, back in the day when we released voices, 2014,

we signed a Republic records. We had the, like, you know, the radio dude, Charlie Walk. I don't know. Yeah,

yeah. The big pop experience. He's like, we're going to be a star. Yeah. We're going to fucking make. I have a video of him actually, like, jumping on a couch being like, yes. Like sweating me.

Like, you guys are going to be you. Doing the Charlie Walk. And we're like, okay, well, that's cool. Like, that sounds awesome. And then, you know, he's explaining to us how, or maybe our managers at the time explaining to us, like, literally top 40 is 12 song on repeat. And if you know the right fucking guy to put your song on top 40,

at least that was 2014. Yeah, that's it. was it. We were like, what? That's so fucked up, man. But also like, whoa, Charlie Walk, that guy was sweating and jumping on the couch. He's the guy. Go for it.

He said we're going to be a star? Yeah. Go for it. And we did. And then our manager at the time was like, you know what? I think this might be smart to not be on top 40. I think it might be a better move to do it this way. And I remember just being like, I trust you, I believe in you.

I don't. We were on top 40. for like maybe a month or something and then we decided to not because major label just that fucking weird world we were so excited and it was very of the time as well

it was very much a moment which is also just more legend like for me it's just more legendary to hear you talk about it because yes yeah it's such a time I mean it's 11 12 years ago is like in music that's like a century it was right yeah

it was right when Lord remember the whole Lord remember Lord and her shit fucking blew up and we signed to Lord's label. And they were like, you're going to be the next Lord. We're like, well, that's cool because she was still fucking huge. But, you know, as you see, you only go so high. Yeah. And I'm really grateful that we decided not to do that.

Because I don't know if we would have made, I don't know if we'd still be here. I don't know if, I don't know if we would be. I think it was like kind of a sign from God of you should just kind of do, you and fucking be you because people need you. And to take your, you know, like make the art first always. How have you worked out the loss in your life? Oh, man. I mean, yeah, I've had fucking so much loss.

It's crazy. It's my, it's a one thing I kind of know how to deal with, which is interesting. At a young age, my dad passed. My sister passed. She committed suicide. about six years ago. Oh, I'm so sorry. Maybe longer now, actually, it's crazy.

I had some close friends die of cancer in their early 30s kind of loss has been the only thing I know how to process because it's all traumatic and wild. I mean, loss is just a fucking crazy experience. But it affects me still. It always will.

I, it probably affects me of why maybe I don't want a boyfriend because I don't want to lose somebody or I worry about, you know, people in my life, you know, them getting out of control or them leaving me or it does stick to me in all kind of aspects of, I guess maybe my fear of loss. Because I know how much it fucking hurts. So I have learned and I'm still learning to open myself. to a space where, because I'll, I'll, like, cut myself out and kind of, I'll do the dismissive. Don't get too close to me. Don't care about me too much because I know you're going to leave me kind of mentality. That was mostly my, most of my life. Does any of it come out in, I know it comes out in the music.

I can kind of hear it. Yeah. But the front woman is that, like, someone. that is like the person I am on stage is a different version of me than this person right here. Yes. Like it's some person I have to be that is me. I'm not saying it's not me. Yeah.

But it's some other person like some other version that is still me. I'm not acting. I mean, I go out there and it's an I know like. It's a channeling of another part of me. But I've seen you on stage. Like I know good front people. Like it's natural. You walk out there and you are that person, whoever that person is on.

stage, but that person was created by something. Like, that version of me up there is someone who lost their father, went through poverty, went through a bunch of other shit and, like, emerged as this, I don't know, it's like, I do think it's connected. Like, somehow that person that you are on stage is someone that was created by life. Yeah, absolutely. And that's like the only place I can be that guy maybe. It's maybe the piece of confidence that I never was allowed to have or be. A little bit fearless. Like there's a little bit of, like I see with you, it's like there's a sharpness.

There's a fearlessness. There's a, so it's like that person. I guess I always just try to relate who the child, the young me, whoever, they came up and they emerged into this like character that people think. they know and they do they know like people relate to that guy through my music or whatever and they think they know me and they do know that part of me they don't know me like this yeah yeah you know absolutely that guy was created somehow somehow yeah it was always there that's interesting I've never really thought of it that in that kind of way I always I always kind of just thought

because the person I see on stage with you is not a people pleaser it's not a um afraid no I'm not it's interesting my time too, right? And it's interesting. It is about me. It is about, I mean, it's about us. Josh is, you know, uh, it's it, but it is, it's about, it's about fucking me. And I'm going to, I'm going to show you.

It's strong. Yeah. I'm going to show you that I'm fucking worth it and I'm worthy and I'm fucking badass and I'm all of the things that I, you know, uh, was never told. Yeah. Yeah. It's bizarre. I never really thought about that before.

But that, that, is like I see it and I go, oh, that girl knew that that girl existed and went on stage to be that person. But I wonder if, so I was just thinking about like, I was thinking about you as like a 17 year old losing your father and going through these horrible things and like sitting in your room, not wanting to disturb anyone. And then I saw like a clip of you in my mind on stage as like the person that, the impression I had of you, that was my first impression.

Right. So this impression is my second impression. This is a different impression. Yeah. And I go like, oh, so I wonder where that 17-year-old imagined or created the person that she was going to be. Yeah. And even if that person only exists on stage, I would probably argue it doesn't.

I would probably argue that the lead singer comes out in different situations when you need it to. I think so. Right? I think so. I think for me, too, a little bit. Yeah. I mean, it can't just be on stage.

I mean, it has to, I think, you know, my goofiness, I'm not going to, Josh and I are so fucking goofy. And we just laugh all the fuck. Like, we're just, we have, that's what he says. Sense of humor. Like, we just love to laugh. But I would never try and, well, I guess I'm kind of funny sometimes, but it's just not even, that side of me does not even want to come out on stage. That's funny. Me either, by the way.

I just laugh all day at myself. Like, that's what I say. We're really cool on paper. Yeah. Sure. But man, if people, if people could be able to fly on the wall where my normal day is, it's just like, is that the same fucking person? Yeah.

But there's so many different sides of people, right? Yeah. So the, the badass fucking woman, just fucking let me show you my, hear me roar. person is necessary on stage probably should be necessary in other spaces but maybe I think it comes out in different ways. It comes out in other ways. I've been lucky enough to process my trauma in a lot of ways and I don't like scream at Josh anymore. Right. You know? So I don't need to, you know, I'm capable of using my words now, which is wild. It's so cool. Me too. So cool. Yeah. And I love using that.

I love being honest. I do not like fighting. I don't like fighting. I like talking. I do not like fighting either. Yeah. Yeah. There's no fun in that.

I like to get in fist fights, though. That's fun. But that's usually a weekend thing. Yeah. Do you get in fist fights? Can you imagine? No. I don't know.

Can you imagine if I'm just all like, fucking let's get into a fight. Let's go. You guys want to get into a fight tonight? I could see you. I could. Yeah. No.

I will. someday, but. That's crazy, but I don't know if it could have been any other way. Because I think about it, like, you may know now how to express yourself outside of songs, but you may not have gotten to the songs and gotten to learn how to make the songs if you didn't need it. Yes. Or have, you know, a healthier lifestyle and relationships outside of music. I can talk to my friends now. I can tell how I feel or hey, that was kind of fucked up, that you did that or whatever, or I'm feeling whatever. I didn't know how to do any of that.

I was just all, hey, what's up? So the people in my life, and, you know, I think there was a stint of, there was just surface people and the people who, you know, used the space for where I fit in. And that was always the, oh, cool, I'll do whatever. And this is great. And I'm not going to tell you. But all of the songs were everywhere. was just put into the songs.

And it's weird to be on the other side of that and seeing that. It's amazing, though, to think about, like, the process and journey of what it means to become us. And so if the music isn't the most important part of us, if it's something that we've done. Yeah. And maybe it's how most people know us. Yeah. So all the people out there in the world that are aware of you and me, it's likely because

of our music. But that was just a byproduct of the journey of us. on our way to being a fully realized me that understands myself. It's pretty interesting because like all the details are the book. The Fantagram book or movie came out. Yeah. All those details are they color the whole thing in. But it was all just this like process of you growing all the way up.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and becoming the like fully like the oak tree. Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And I think our last album is both of our favorites. Yeah.

It's the process, the being smarter, the experience, you know, that feeling of not knowing how to speak and having to use your art to release. And also kind of leaning into that and being the person of like, I need to be depressed to write. I need to be. I can't be happy. I can't have this person care about me. I need to be in the dark space so I can create these songs for our fans to relate and to be able to, you know, respect.

It just, it was this awful cycle of just not wanting to be happy and thinking it was going to fuck up your art or, you know, it changes a lot. But like, relying on alcohol to get my emotions out with lyrics for the song was it was a normal thing for us. me. I think it was the same. I think, yeah. Like to tap into, it's crazy what artists will do to fucking make art for the, for people like you, and you've seen it and everyone has seen it, you know? I also think I was like doing that thinking I was, but I was also

medicating. And I didn't even realize how much pain I had. Same. And the music gave me relief, but I felt like I needed that to make that. And it was all just misguided. But I do think that's just like an underdeveloped person who hasn't fully realized, like, their own capability. Absolutely. And so, like, I thought I needed to be conflicted, depressed, all of that to be a good artist as well.

Yeah. And then I realized, like, as an adult, I realized, like, no, that was a young way of looking at music. Yeah. I mean, again, yeah. Like, I would say you guys are the best version of your band today. Yeah. I think I agree.

And that, it does have a lot to do with being fucking mentally healthy. And fully developed. Yeah, developed. And I think that to me is like the same. I think like, I didn't know what I would be at 46, but here I am. And I'm actually more capable of doing it all. Enjoying it more. Right.

Like going into a song and not expecting it you need to fucking find the darkness of the, you know, rock bottom to get, get that. that chorus. Like, fucking just... Got some choruses, though. You did get some choruses. Thank you. Wouldn't want you to go back and be a limit.

But did good. Yeah, there's also a better way of doing it, realizing. But congratulations. Thank you. Thank you so much. It was really nice to meet you. Yeah, pleasure to meet you too.

Leroy was a real star. Thanks for being such a positive person in this world. Thank you for. fucking artist be the best they can. It's so, that's truly... Couldn't have done it without you. Yeah. Thank you.

Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram at Artist.Friendly. And you can watch us on YouTube and Veeps. Leave comments.

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