Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Spencer Chamberlain of Underoath (Rerun)

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

On this week's encore episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Spencer Chamberlain of ⁠⁠Underoath⁠⁠. For Underoath, the past year has been one of reflection and evolution, as they marked the 20th anniversary of their 2004 genre-defining album, They’re Only Chasing Safety, with a ⁠⁠North American tour⁠⁠, while also looking ahead with the release of their 10th studio album, ⁠⁠The Place After This One⁠⁠. In a conversation with Madden, Chamberlain opens up about the complexity of personal growth that comes within navigating the music industry—and how a band’s lifespan can mirror the ebbs and flows of any enduring relationship. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with the lead singer of Grammy-nominated rock band Under Oath, Spencer Chamberlain. Let's go. I don't know if that's my kind. I don't want to bettimes. I don't want to have bad. How are you? Good. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Dude, thanks for having me, man. Have we met before? I feel like we have, but I can't remember. I can't place it. Yeah. I think. Probably like a festival or a work tour or something like that.

Yeah. We've never really broed down. We've never gotten to hang out. 20 years in the making. This has been 20 years in the making. Yeah. I do watch these all the time when I'm scrolling and stuff. I see all these interviews.

I'm like these are great. Cool. Thank you. So yeah. I like doing it. Yeah. It's most of these conversations we would have if we were like growing down and meeting up.

If we were like meeting for the first time and we had some night to kill somewhere backstage or somewhere. If you're on tour, yeah, like chilling. And you end up in some really great conversation and people don't ever get to, you don't have it on record. Yeah. You don't have it. Like you haven't, so this is great because, so it's like, they were like, oh, he's in

C with Joey. I was going to go in, but like, I actually like to sit right down and start talking. And we don't have to use all of it. But I like to have like the meeting and the, and the, even if it's the first time, like, I like to catch it because, like, I don't. I don't know. I just think it's like something special. Yeah. No, I dig that. Yeah. Hell yeah. So, thanks for coming. Yeah, man. Dude, we're excited to be here. How's on DeRoth? Record came out today. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. Better than ever.

Strangely enough, you know, this far into it, it's funny. I feel like as we started to focus more on like, are we having fun? Is this worth being away from family? Do we need to do this? You know, because I think when we're younger, the way that the scene worked or the industry worked, it was like you had two years on record, you had to make another one, you had to tour, tour, tour, tour, tour. You know, it was just like, if you didn't deliver, you know, in a certain time frame, like, you might be forgotten. Someone's going to come and take you out of your spot or your lane. And now I feel like there's so many lanes to where it's like, good for them for being huge. I don't care if the opening band now was playing arenas and we're not. It's like, it's a win for everyone and you could just take your time and focus on what's important, which is the art. Like, are the songs good? You know, if they're not, you don't need to put them out. You know, like, so I think,

strangely enough, like, as we started to focus on things, like, is this fun for us? Are we happy? You know? Are we getting along? The music started to, like, really shine. Like, writing this record and just being like, less

sacred. Not, I don't know if that's the right word, but, like, let's use that for now. Yeah. Like, like, my part has to be there because I worked, like, less that and more like, looking around the room, like, is Chris Bob in his head? If he's not. maybe, all right, let me try something else.

You know, like, I want him to be stoked. Fuck everything else, right? I don't care what the fans say or what Randy, no offense. You in here? There is. Or like the label says, like, I was really going into this record. I was just like, oh, we've struggled a lot with our relationships and personal demons and the band's broken up and got back together.

What do you think that was? Which part? Okay, let's start where. drugs, alcohol, death, fucking growing up. Okay, so you would say, yeah, it's interesting because it is kind of just growing up. But I have a theory. What's your theory? Okay.

I love theories. I'm a very philosophical, theoretical, theoretic guy. Like, you see a lot of, like, the child stars go through it. I think when a band is young, it gets any sort of notoriety. Yeah. Fame, success, this, that, all of it, whatever. Coming from nothing and having money to pay your bills playing music, That's it.

It's like magic. You're like, whoa, this money magically appeared and I can get $20 out of the ATM any time I want. Yeah. It's like magic. So my theory with why bands that start young have a hard time and they break up, or at least for us, in my experience, it is you start a band with dudes that are like-minded, right? Everyone's like into the same thing, you know, and you get into a van. so when you're in the van and you're a nobody

you're playing floor shows basement shows VSW halls you know in this day and age you know before the iPhone there was a CD

and the CD player so you're all listening to the same shit so you pull over on the side of the road what do you all eat the same place and then

oh we're out of underwear we're out of fucking shirts you go shop you all look the same everyone looks the same dresses the same acts the same a lot of the

it's like the herd mentality like you've got this tube you're traveling around in sleeping on people's floors. All these... It's survival. Yeah. All these ins...

Yeah, you're surviving the road. And all these inside jokes and these crazy... Like, oh my God, we stayed on these people's floor last night. They were fighting upstairs. Can you believe... You know, all the conversations you're having because you're really living life together. As...

Yeah, like, think about it. And so just kind of like a footnote or asterisk. Like, in exactly what you're saying, because I think about this a lot. If we were a... If we were tribal... a thousand years ago, our people would all wear similar clothes because we got it from the same source, right? So like we, it's a bit of like a, we win in groups as people. Right. We don't win

solo. We win in groups. We have to survive in groups. And then there's subgroups in the groups. Totally. Right. So like as a tribal species of people that survive together and evolved together, we are kind of like exactly what you're saying. Like you're traveling around. surviving together for a shared common goal of hopefully success, which what does success mean? It means we eat. Yeah, like $5 for food, $20 for food a day or whatever it was. Yeah. So go ahead.

Continue. So the reason why I think like you go through these problems is because when any sort of fame happens and for me when I was growing up, it was like making it to me was seeing these scene shows and like the finger pointing and people seeing words back at you. that's it. That's like that. That was, because when this shit started,

it was, there was no thought of mainstream. There was no thought of 20 years. You know, it was people singing your words back at you would be life change. You know, that's it. But as,

as you're traveling around and things start to take off in any sort of level and you get out of a van into like a bus, people start to have a little bit more freedom. And you get some, a little bit of money in your bank account, even if it's just a little bit. And now you've got, you know,

people start to become individuals, which I think is really healthy. Yeah, I do too. But when you're a teenager or into your early 20s, you get offended. When this guy starts being like, well, now he's a vegetarian, so he doesn't eat with us anymore,

or that guy's straight edge and this dude's starting to drink, or he's listening to different music, and he's kind of, his taster changing, or even his clothes, because now on a day off, he can go to the mall by himself and go somewhere else, where the group goes this way. whatever it may be, the individuality of becoming a man, in our case, it's all guys in our band, so as we've started to become men, and not just little boys, you know, beating off of each other,

it caused all, like, growing pains. And I think a lot of, like, I think as people became individuals, including myself, like, I would get offended, you know, and people would get offended with me and, like, or just mad, you know, and you're just like, fuck that guy. He's kind of different now, right? you know, when we should be celebrating each other's differences and letting people explore and find what's right for them. And also, you know, when we started this band, it started as a Christian band. So that was a whole other element of pressure of being the same. Because the minute you start to think a little bit different or question even, maybe this isn't right. Maybe I don't like this. Maybe this isn't good for me. Someone's like,

that guy's got a problem or we need to talk to him or he's out of here. You know, so there was a lot of, I think Under oath especially had a whole other or any other band that had like a straight edge band and everyone has to be straight edge or who were a Christian band. How did a Christian label get put on you guys? The band started as a Christian band. What does that mean? When I joined the band in 2003, I didn't never write about it. So that was always a question for me, but a lot of the bands that from the scene that I was

around, they were sharing similar labels. I know it was like everyone in the band was Christian. For us, it was something we talked about in interviews or on stage. Right, okay. So you had a pointed message that you at the time really felt compelled to share in your music and on stage. As a group, yeah, but it never really translated to lyrically, which also started to change from me pretty fast. As the band started to take off at seeing things like that, like this Christian side of what? whatever the music industry is and seeing people that are like,

these people aren't, some of these people aren't good people. Some of these people are, you know, it's kind of like jaded and fucked up and like, you know, I think being a kid and being like, we're supposed to,

the ideas to lead people to like, what? Like, we're just kids. What do we know? You know, that was, that was a huge thing for me too. It's like,

we shouldn't be leading anyone towards any decision to make with their life because of our stance. Like, why are we making a stance about what we believe in when we're, like, boys? You know, to me, it was, like, it was a confusing time for me to be a frontman of a band that was taking off, and there's this pressure of, like, well, they're a Christian band, and I'm the mouthpiece, and then I'm, like, kind of going inward with that. That's, like, crushing my chest. Yeah.

You know, like, the anxiety, which ended up leading to drug use in, like, oh, wow, okay. that's a real A lot of That can happen Yeah The pressure of like I also was like I don't believe

I don't feel comfortable With a lot of the stuff That is attached to this religion Not saying and I'm not like I've been quoted It's I guess You get misquoted or they pull the Clickbait out

I've been like I hate Christianity Beac clickbait whatever That's not the case I think whatever works for you Well more power to you Like everyone should have that choice In a religious house Kind of

So did I Yeah. I was in the Church of God my whole until I left home. Yeah. And it was evangelical and it was very Christian. In fact, it's weird. You know, the reality of religion is it's good. At the core of what it's supposed to mean, like it's a higher ideal of do unto others. It's generally the core values are all generally the same across religions.

It's due unto others. It's love your neighbor as yourself. It's peace and love. And it's actually what's, I think, help devolve humans along the way is a higher. Compassion is really like the highest evolution of a human is like to just have compassion. But it's leadership when the leader of a group says, if you do that, you're bad. When I do it, I'm human. Right.

I made a mistake. When you do it, you're going to hell. Right. Right. That's the problem I have. At the core of, like what you were saying a minute ago, the core of religion, like, I am not an anti-religion person. Like, go for it. Yeah.

If it helps you. And I believe that the beauty of religion just as a broad statement is like, it helps people. I agree. And I think some people need it. Like, there are people on this planet that fear God. And that's the reason why they don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, whatever. Like, there are people that need it. It's good.

And then there are people like on your. deathbed, I couldn't imagine, like, people battling cancer and people battling different, like the comfort. I'm not an anti-religion person. I'm just saying being in a Christian band was not good for me, and I try to share my struggle with that or my experience with it. And I've been known to be like, oh, he fucking hates Christianity, he hates Christians. That's not true.

I don't. I don't hate any of that. Let me read you your quote in 2000. I'm sure. Here we go. You said, I'm not saying religion is wrong for everyone, but for me, it was wrong. It ruined my life. It did. Turn me into a drug addict. And people were awful to me the whole time. I never felt more alone in my life than I was a Christian. Actually, in the moment you said that, I'm sure, because I actually related to that. Yeah. That's why I brought, that's why I said, I got to ask him about when he said that. Because I related to it, I actually

used to say, I'm a Christian in a band. We're not a Christian band. You ever hear that? that one. Yep. Oh yeah. My whole life. The core of being in a religion is a good idea. When I meet people who are truly like enlightened who like love God, it's different. Yeah. And it's in, and to be honest, it's inspiring. And it is a, it's attractive. Like you feel like you want that. But to say that it has to be one way like and then the guy who's Hindu or Muslim is wrong, it's just weird. Yes, because you're an artist. Yeah.

And we're just trying to tell stories. Yep. And we're trying to heal people, actually. I mean, that's, yeah, that was the initial love of it, right? Like you were a kid, you listened to something that made you feel not alone, right? There was something in your room at some point in time, you had put on a, I don't know if it was a tape or a final or how, you know, CD, whatever it was. even the fucking... I'm not that much older than you.

Even an FM radio. Yeah, but tapes when I was little. Tapes, yeah, but also, and my parents had vinyl and shit laying around, but, you know, whatever. Whatever it might have been for you or whoever's listening, like, there was a moment in time you were listening

to something more than likely by yourself that made you feel like, that's for me. Yeah. That was written for me or written about me or that, that's what I want. You know, and I think that was, I'll never forget being a little kid and I was obsessed with Nirvana.

I had an older brother and two older stepbrothers. So I had cool music always when the kids my age necessarily weren't into it yet. And I remember showing a friend the song that just, it made me feel, and he was playing like Super Mario. He was like, yeah, I don't know. It made me so, I was like, God, if I could just bottle that feeling that I'm feeling right now and just give it to you, just drink that. I want you to feel that.

Like I was so frustrated at such a young age of like, why can't this person feel that? It was like, I just need to, I just wanted to share that feeling with my friends. And most of my friends that I grew up with did not like any of the music that I liked or cared. It would just, I guess, motivated me to be like to write, to share because music, you know, I know it's cheesy. Music saved me, but yeah, it did. It saved all of us, which is why we are in these seats right. now talking about music and talking about life because at some point in your life that went off in your brain of like wow that's everything that changed my whole like you know it could

have been something so silly like you got picked on at school and freaking second grade but that song came on and you just felt better yeah you know and that was that that was like that was it so it's like if it was pizza you'd been like if i eat a piece of pizza and everything changed you probably would have wanted to open a pizza restaurant when you got older. But for us, you and me, it was a song or a lyric or an album or a band could have been their whole everything, you know, in that. And then you see that and those people that come to your meet and greets of mine and they wait outside for your signatures or mine or like, how old were you guys when you got, you know, you put out your first record and you really started working? 2004 is when it started to move.

So you were early 20s? Yeah. 20 and 21. Okay, so young. Do you ever think, like, maybe with under oath, the Christian moniker, do you ever think that, like, maybe it was taken from you, slapped on you as a marketing thing, and kind of got away from you? Like, I'm not saying it wasn't real, because I know it was, because I could feel it from you guys.

But do you ever feel like it was taken overboard, maybe? like by all of the powers that be that are, you know, just trying to sell records, trying to find audiences, trying to blah, blah, blah. Do you ever feel like you're young and you're not completely aware of like how this thing, all this works? You certainly never, you don't have the 20 years you have experience to go like, hold up, hold up messaging. How do we want to say this?

How do we want to do this? Do you ever feel like it was kind of ran with and you guys were just like, Not to say you weren't powerless, but you were kind of like, I guess this is how it works. We don't want to lose the opportunity. We don't want to be ungrateful. We don't want to be all the bad things. So let's just be good and be grateful and go play and not think about it because this is what everybody wants. And the fans want it.

And these people want it. Well, we had to do that. It came to a head at some point. Right. But do you feel like it just got ran with? I think more so internally than I think the outside. maybe, like, I don't think, I guess we weren't really paying attention, but maybe a little bit. I think that there was a movement in that scene of that.

I mean, the bands like Under Oath and the Devil Worth Prada were Christian and Norbert. Yeah, they were, and then Norma Jean and. That's weird. Emery. I never looked at you guys as a Christian man. I knew there was like some religious aspects. Because we didn't do, we didn't do the Christian band thing. We didn't tour with Christian men.

We just, we just tore it. We did like, so I think, I think for, for us, it was more of like a sore thumb because we stayed out of the Christian world as far as the touring world. Right. And I think it did become... I think it did become a talking point

in like a silly way of like there's this band on Warp Tour that calls themselves Christians and some of our guys were like doing a Bible study. Oh, okay. And that kind of thing was like, look how ridiculous they are. You know, like I think that

that was a moment in time, but I think I was just trying to ignore it all and figure out why do I, feel uncomfortable with. And feel, figure out life. All these good things are happening, but I feel uncomfortable.

You know, and I think that's what we're all doing is trying to find ways to be comfortable in our own skin. And I think as that label started to become more prevalent and we started to grow, I just felt more and more uncomfortable

in my own skin to where... I get that. I didn't want to be in my skin, so I'll get high. Right. You know, that was just an easy, obviously, it's a Band-Aid, you know, maybe that works for a few months.

How long did the drugs go on? 13 years. Oh, wow. Yeah. God damn, man. Yeah. A long time. A long time.

I'm glad you're here. Me too. A lot of my friends are not. Yeah. Even, you know, there's a song on the new record called Survivor's Guilt, and it's kind of coming, create a conversation about, you know, different people's survivors guilt, like B, if you're in the military and, you know, we were talking about this friend that, like, his whole platoon died and he survived.

And great that you survived, but there's also that feeling. There's another feeling that comes with it. And that song was kind of coming from the standpoint of like the opening line is seven years and eight down in 23, which is it had been seven years since I'd stopped using drugs. Eight of my friends died in 2023 alone. And the same shit that I was doing. And just because I got out before the fat and all fate, like, I'm the feeling of like I'm not better than my friends. Like I've known some people that are dead right now weren't even as hard of drug users as I was. Right.

They were casual. You know, once a month we'll party. You know, or we go out every now and again and like, yeah, we'll do a bump or two. You know, and you got the wrong thing. Let me tell you something, bro. Sobriety is the religion in my mind of if you want to talk about religions giving you something. I'm not a sober person. I've never been an addict.

I've never had a drug, an interest in drugs. I'm terrified of drugs. They scare the shit out of me. Now, I can't even, like, all my band eats edible. Like, they're all into, like, and these guys were all super straight. I was first drinking and partying, I was the wild guy. I don't consider mushrooms drugs. Yeah, well, but any of that stuff, weed, I can't even, I can't even take a wheat,

give me, like, the feeling of being out of control, which is like, I can still have a glass of wine with my fiance, cooking dinner, we're at home, we're like, not alcohol for you, it's drugs. It's drugs, but because even with drinking, it's like, if I start to feel a buzz, I just put it down because now the thought, I was, like, not in control of my body for so long, the thought of being out of control, it terrifies me. Like, I took an edible, like, when I first got off drugs, I smoked a lot of weed, you know, because it was like trying to find something else until I smoked so much weed that I was like,

I was having panic attacks and, like, I couldn't sleep and I'm waking up. I'm like, I hate this. Did you go to therapy? Yeah, I did substance abuse therapy for a lot of thing. But did you also just go to therapy? Yeah, I've done it. Okay. Yeah.

I think there's something like some trauma or something when we get into, like when I hear about your drug use I go I don't know I don't think you should ever do drugs no I don't do them I don't if you've had that experience that you had I have friends who get I guess they use castle will drugs I don't know because they don't tell me because I think they think probably I would judge them I wouldn't but I also just don't do drugs and I also don't want to hang out with people that are like fucking melting yeah like it's a weird like yeah I think that's like as as adults as middle-aged guys, like, I don't go out that much, but when I do... Yeah, I don't either. I'm happy to be out when I'm out,

but if someone's doing, like, Coke, it's weird, it's like... The funny thing now is, like, I can go out to any bar anywhere with the band, like when we go out, we don't go out that much. I barely go out, but... Yeah.

Are you married with kids and stuff? I'm getting married in September. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. That's nice. I'm excited. All the Christians will be glad. Yeah.

Getting it honest. Right? I had my kids before I got married I have a kid with an ex-girlfriend that was a crazy toxic scenario right when I got off drugs it's my daughter is a blessing but there you go that that scenario was a fucking shit show it was awful but that's neither here nor there yeah well well that's the thing is like we can't judge

those situations that we found ourselves in when we weren't honoring or trying to like love ourselves or take care of ourselves and others, but out of those things come these beautiful. Yeah. When your therapist says you should not be in a relationship, you should listen to them. Otherwise, you're going to end up in court battles and shit for chalk custody. Oh, that's terrible.

Terrible. Oh, terrible. Yeah. But the funny thing, like what I was saying is I can go any bar or anywhere because I was a drug user for so long. Like, I know the game and everything. And also, by the way, I did not go to a bar for about six years. Okay.

Because I didn't, I just didn't want to put myself in it. You know what I put yourself in there. I had to learn how to trust myself again, had to learn how to love myself again. Yeah. It was really important. But did you ever love yourself? I do now. Good.

You know, but I don't think I did as a kid until I found out. Until I went through the drug phase and then was harder on myself after, I was more of a wreck the first two years after being off drugs than I was. I was a better functioning drug addict. He could keep my emotions in my emotions. in my life in line, but then the first two, two and a half, three years off drugs,

I was a roller coaster. Yeah, you were left to sit with the reality of you. Yeah, and I would just, for no reason, break down, could be crying, I could be a dick, I could just self-implode or just look at someone and lash out. I was like, I was not in control of my emotions

for a good watch. It was the first couple of years off drugs that were fucking hard. Yeah, I don't care what anyone says. I think that when we use drugs, we're medicating deeper, deeper pain, trauma. And then when we're left alone with that, the pain, the trauma has to come up. Yeah. And so it makes sense to me that you would be a better functioning drug addict. Yeah.

That's not having to deal with whatever the pain is, whatever we got to work out. There's no one on this planet that doesn't have, after the first 20 years of life, have to unpack their childhood and figure out where are my injuries. Yeah. And that's why everyone should go to therapy. Everyone should find some person that's professionally skilled to help. Even using an app, dude, the kids. Use the app.

There's so much positive stuff that I wish we would have. I wish I would have done it when I was fucking 21 in good charlotte. We didn't have iPhones that you could just. No, on the road doing therapy. Now kids can do that and it's so beautiful. I'm happy we're at that spot. Everyone should find their version of mental health and what does that mean to them? Like, what's my mental health currently?

How do I take care of it? Is it therapy? Is it this app? Likely it's a bunch, it's a few different things. Some people meditate. Some people do yoga. Some people go to therapy. Some people go to this kind of therapy.

Some people go to that kind of therapy. but everyone should be thinking about what am I pushing down and not dealing with because when you find yourself on drugs not having to deal with anything completely checked out likely overwhelmed by your career personal development when you're in a band that has success early on stops personal growth stops yeah and if you don't have someone around you that's saying hey this is kind of how it works Like on stage, you're this character and you're this guy. It is you. It is an aspect of you.

But offstage, you're just you. It's okay to just be you. And I think that's hard. I think that's hard to figure out when you're a kid, when you start as young as we did. And when you're in this constant business of me. Yeah. It's a business of me. If I don't show up, it doesn't happen.

And then it's kind of, and what does that mean? And it ages you in some ways and it stunts your growth. Yeah. We talk about this all the time. Yeah. You know, you keep you in this bubble. You'll see things that you shouldn't have seen super fast. And there's no accountability.

If you're on the road and you want to do some drugs or you want to go and have a one-night stand or there's no one's there going, hey, is that good for you? You think that's the best thing? Like, let's talk about it before. Like, there's no thought into these, like, life-altering sometimes decisions. Right. That you're, it's, you're almost expected to behave badly. You know what I mean?

That's why your parents didn't want you to be in rock and roll, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of celebrated because you're at anywhere you are, you're, it's someone's Friday night because they're here with the band and they all want to hang out and they all want to party or do this or do that. Isn't this what you guys do? And you're like, so at a young age, if you get in in your early 20s, it can be really

unhealthy. And I'm not even like absolving myself of responsibility. I'm saying like, like it doesn't mean it's okay to make all those bad decisions. It's not it. it's just not a healthy environment. Right. It's more unhealthy than it is healthy. It's not conducive to like personal growth, spiritual growth,

all these like positive ideas of like how we can kind of navigate life and grow. And I didn't really learn about any of it until I started therapy. And I wasn't probably 29 when I started. Yeah. Now I'm just like the gym and therapy. It was two things. That's what I was about to say. I think there's three forms of therapy in my life,

but outside of, there's regular therapy. and then there's songwriting because you're writing things that a lot of times you're not may be comfortable talking about yet yeah and I think there's a beauty in that and then the gym that was a huge thing for me is you can tell I'm huge oh good uh just going look fit I take care of myself and it's it started with like I hated the way I looked I hated myself when I looked in the mirror which was the start of getting off drugs it's like who is the this, what the fuck happened to me? And then you kind of change the way you eat.

And then you start working out and exercising. You're like, man, I feel, because I think when you're getting high or you're trying to, I don't think you're like, fuck you, mom, fuck you dad. No. I think you're trying to feel good. For some reason, there's something in your life you're trying to feel better about. And it's a good feeling high is they call it a high because if you're at, ooh, I'm up here, right?

So I think I started to find something that made me feel good in a completely different way. Because for some reason, good starting in my 20s was the drug high, which is a synthetic or, you know, whatever, a high that's not necessarily natural. Yeah, no. It's not supposed to be felt until you find a way to kind of find a parallel. It's not the same, but it's this thing that's like, man, I feel great right now. I have a theory. I think we use drugs to get to a potential that would otherwise take us much longer to get to. Amen.

So if I want to vibrate on this high of a level, it would take self-care therapy, self-love, self-love, all the things I'd have to learn how to do. But my question was, did you love yourself before? Did you like the way you look before the drugs? No. That's my theory. My theory is we don't love ourselves. We don't, we have something, some injury in our life and some of it's just the human condition.

And most band guys, whether they want to admit it or not, all start outsiders, low self-esteem, sensitive artist types. We're very sensitive. So we go into a world that's not, we go to school, we go to these places, and we get banged up because we're feelers. If you're a songwriter, you're a feeler, you're a thinker, you're a sensitive, and you want to give. And so people like that were very susceptible to damage. Yeah. So we get damaged and then we go into these artistic careers. Then we have success and we don't even know how to fucking make sense of the success

because our self-esteem will not let us hold it and own it. And then we find our way into something that escapes responsibility from that work we'd have to do to get to the high of loving yourself and being happy. and being okay. Working hard. Working hard on you, it's discipline. It takes discipline. It takes a lot. It's like, and it sucks. There are days where I'm like, I wake up, I'm like, man, I would just love to just lay in this bed, just roll around, watch some Netflix, just get up and kind of roll around and eat and just be lazy, but I'm like, I'm going to get up and go to the gym, even if I don't want to. And then when I'm done, I'm like, even if I know nothing for the rest of the day. Yeah. And I'm like,

but I also did something to make me better. Because I look at myself, I'm like, I'm not going to be the dude that starts to fall apart from 40. I'm not going to spend the next 40-plus years on a decline. I'm like, well, I spent 20 and 30 destroying my body.

Now I'm going to be like, every day is a chance to be a better me. So I wake up and I go, all right, even if it's just that, I just went to the gym. That's doing something from my heart, my body, from my joints, stretching the muscles, all of it just working in your brain.

So today, I'm better than I was yesterday. And it allows you to love yourself. And you're doing something hard and it makes the rest of the day feel easy. Yeah. Because you're doing that workout. You're doing that sauna. I like the ice plunge. I like the sauna.

I like the workout. I like, you know, I'm learning to like cardio, which I always hated my whole life. I'm learning to like it. My knee doesn't like cardio. I grew up skateboarding. Were you a skateboarder? No. I grew up skateboarding.

I mean, I did, but I wasn't good. What about a bike? Oh, yeah. I can do the electrical on the bike. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The bike is a good one.

It takes a minute to get into it, but it's a very good source of cardio. Yeah. It's the running on the pavement or on the, yeah. Running isn't good for your body. My knee is like, yo, let's stop that.

Inclined walk is good. I do that a lot. The stair machine. Really good. you got one at the gym. I agree that. I think it all spawns from like self-love. And like,

and how do you tell a 12-year-old boy to be like, you should be loving yourself because you can't. They don't even understand. You don't understand what that is. And I'm like, when I think back on it, it's like, you know,

it's funny because my fiance is always like, I bet you were like, if I would have met you in high school, like you, you've been so cool. I've been playing shows since I was 12. And like, oh, wow.

Just keep boarding. And I was like, no, where I grew up, I was picked on for that. Like, that wasn't cool. To play rock music where everyone was like,

it was hip hop in country, yeah. In football. Yeah. In basketball. Where are you from? North Carolina. Okay, yeah.

So it was to dress the way that I dressed and to play anything with a guitar that wasn't a jam band. Like, I was sell, like my band was selling out little venues and stuff. I was, and played music with my brother

and his friends a lot. and they were like older punk dudes and like we were that wasn't cool. You were like a freak, you were a loser or words words they would call you that you couldn't use now.

Yeah. All the time and I tell her all the time I was like it was so opposite. I was like selling out a show as a kid would get you thrown into a locker because you're not a jam band. Yeah. And you're not,

you know what I mean? You're not a football player. Like it wasn't cool. So I think all of that started is like you didn't look like everyone else. you know, I wasn't jacked and had a beard at 16. I was a little twig on a skateboard. So I think that like we, you know,

we started this conversation off about a more emotional aspect of like what it means to be in Under oath and what the journey's been like. And I think it's, it's important to like recognize like Under Oath is cool as shit. Thank you. It's a storied career. You guys show up. and people show up to see you.

You're one of those bands that everybody knows is gonna like show up and tickets are selling and people are coming to that show and it's a good show. You guys have built a thing that takes a lifetime to build

because you're a good band. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I think that it's important to kind of highlight what it means to build for people listening. The reality of building something great is it's fucking chaotic and messy inside when you're doing it because it's human beings working together, working on

their own shit, figuring out who they are. And who are we as a unit? Right. And who we are as a band. And what does that mean today? What does it mean three years in, five years in, ten years? It's always going to change. Always.

Who we are as individuals, always going to change. And what you hope is you arrive to this point of your life, right? Like I always say it's like 40, right? You arrive to the point in your life where you should know who you are. You're right. Hell or high water, whatever you've been through, good, the bad, the ugly, the pictures you'd look back on and go, oh, or the moments you'd look back on and go, oh, my God, it's ugly.

Yeah. But that's growing up. And on the other side of it, I see grown men in a great band, making great music, affecting the world in a positive way. Of course. affecting each other in a positive way. When I sit across from you, I go, oh, this guy's a success. You're fucking here.

You're not all disconnected. You can sit here and have a real conversation about some shit that like, this is why I like this show is because we can talk about what does it mean to be a Christian anyways or what does it mean to be a band anyways? Or like, it's very hard to define the reality of any of the things, of any of these ideas. But like, we should be able to talk about it without having everyone really. rip every word out of context, rip every little thing we say about.

We're just working it out. Yeah. In real time all the time. And so this conversation is more true to what it actually means to figure shit out. And still not kind of know. Yeah. And kind of know. But when we hit 40,

you would hope that we figured out how to live life and our way that will allow us to go another 40 years. Right. and not go the way of what we've seen a lot of our friends, people that died way too early, either by drugs, suicide. All of it is like, to me, like drug addiction is like a long, slow suicide. It is taking the way of the like, I don't want to kill myself like that. I want to kill myself like this. It is.

And so anything we do knowingly in poor health, we know we're killing ourselves a little bit doing this each time. That that to me is like the down cycle and or we choose the path up, which is hard. But on the other side of that path is good health, clarity, self, more self-esteem, more self-awareness, more self-love and a grounded sense of reality. I always think that way. I'm like, what's the grounded sense of reality here of what it actually means? It's not the idea of it that everybody wants to post or write or that's all just ideas.

And it's most of it's bullshit. Right. Reality is a different thing. So I was talking to someone the other day about they were asking about me writing this record, being off drugs and all the stuff. And I painted it like, look, we were saying, like, when you come out at 40 and you're like, you should kind of know. What's the name of the record?

It's called the place after this one. All right. So when I look this way, the way I explain this is. like my whole career, I want to explain it, like, as if visually, if you're on a boat, and you're traveling from point A to point B, you're out there, you got this crew with you, you're sailing, fucking storm hits. Yeah. And you don't know if you're going to make it.

You don't know what's going to happen. It's just chaos. Yeah. And you're shouting about it. You're thinking about, you're like, oh, my God, we're going to die. The boat's going to go down. You're yelling at this guy to pull the sail in and this shit. the other were going over these.

Everything's going crazy, right? Yeah. I've been writing in that my whole life. And someone asked me, what was like to write this record? What's different about this record? And they said, I got through the storm, got on the shore,

no one died. Yeah. And you looked out and it's like, that was crazy, right? That was nuts. Now we can talk about it. Yeah. Now that I've made it through the other side.

Not saying that I'm not going to have another storm in my life. I don't know. You don't know. I don't know. We don't know. But right now, I made it to shore and I can look back and clearly talk about how that felt, how I was feeling. What was it like to be in that moment as opposed to my whole career? It's like you're treading water trying to write about what you're in. You're in the shit trying to talk about the shit. But now when you're on the shore, looking back at it and you're like, I can write a book about this. You can make a movie about that, you know, whatever it is. You know, like, Writing from that perspective and hindsight of like, it is still real, all those emotions I felt and I can still feel and think about can make me feel a certain way. I can still talk about it. Just because I'm not an addict anymore, or I'm not dealing with death or whatever this crazy toxic relationships I've been in all the stuff in my life that was turmoil. I don't need to be in turmoil to make good art.

No. I'm clear-headed on the other side of it. I'm really fucking happy. My life is good. the band is happy. Everyone's in a great spot. That's nice. And it made for great music because we could focus on making stuff that made us all happy and stoked. And I could write about turmoil,

could write about the storm that I went through over the last five years or I want to go through the whole 13 years and a whole 20 years of being this band. I'm sitting on the beach, my feet in the sand, looking out that clear sky and this ocean is calm. And I'm just like,

I can't believe all that. But now I can't believe all that. But now I can really think about it, like, how did that really make me feel? What was that? What, you know, like, let me talk about it. Because I'm a fucking live, you know, like, and I'm here. I also can, like, analyze what part I played in it. And then I can not do it again.

Right. And then it can always be sunny and clear, even when problems come, they're less of a storm and more of a problem to solve. And I, because I'm so clear. You're more equipped now. and I understand like I listen to my instincts and if somebody comes around I'm like before I if I did this I still let them hug me right now if I do this and I don't let them get near me I don't have a problem yeah and it's like you know metaphorically I'm saying like we can we can look at like what are the patterns we've had in our lives with ourselves with people um is there a reoccurring problem that I've always thought was other people that's actually me that's a huge one right? Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's a, fucking, that's a big one.

Yeah. Can I get out of my own way? Yeah. Right. But I think that's the age. I think that's experience. Is that what 40 is? I think so, dude.

Okay. All right. It's experience. It is. In going back, not to die back in the religion thing, but that was also like, dude, you don't know who you are. How are you leading anyone anywhere? We knew nothing.

Like now, you know, look at us now. We're actually, like, I feel like finally like I'm a man now. I feel like I was a boy until like clarity hit. And when you, when you know who you are and you've got some self-awareness and self-love, you're like, I'm a fucking man. And you can easily, a grown-ass man can make a decision and stand by it and be fine with it. Yeah. And it's okay.

Like if you don't agree. And we don't have to see eye to eye on everything. Yeah, exactly. And it wouldn't bother me at all. Yeah. If you and I have, you know, different feelings about different things, fine. We can talk about it. I don't care.

That's how I feel. Yeah. Feel the same way. I find differences to be more interesting than anything. Yeah. Someone's different than me. I'm always like, why do you think that? Oh, tell me, I don't know.

I just, I'm interested. I think it's most. Well, it's also like, you know, sometimes you're, I think as you get a little bit older, you're like, well, maybe I'm looking at this wrong. Maybe if I listen or hear you out, like, maybe I could learn something. Yeah. Also, maybe I can stay still firmly with. my decision on how I feel, I think that is being mature, like being able to hear someone out

and make, you know, a conscious thought of that, like, not anger because you're saying something that I don't feel or I don't believe in, but like, more like, oh, I wonder why you make that choice. And I don't. And is there something I'm missing? And after the conversation is done, like, oh, no, I'm still feel the same way I felt and I'm good. And we can be different. or to be able to be like, oh, wow, I never thought of it that way or thought of it that way. I'm going to look more into that. And I'm in constant, I'm constantly working on my shit, whether it's my business or my marriage or myself, my personal growth, my physical.

I'm constantly now, I'm in a, I'm in a lifestyle of like working on myself and my shit. And I think it's given me a really, like, healthy view of the reality. of this, right? I believe that we all have dirty laundry. I believe that we all have closets. We stuff shit in them. Some might be worse than others. Some people's shit in their closet might be terrible. I don't know. But I believe we all have it. And so can I get to a place in my life where anyone can walk in my house and look in my fucking closet and look in my fucking laundry? To me, that's the goal. The goal is, is, to live a life where you could take my computer,

you can look through all my emails and my text messages and read everything I write and I can live with it. I can live with you knowing my worst moment or my best moment. To me, that's like clarity. That's like peace. That's like something like... I'm gonna be able to my music, my hair can't with me and has to be able to be able to

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Because I believe that we live in a world now where people sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, and they sell this idea that they're right,

that they're perfect, that they're that they're that. And their life is better than you, especially social media. And I'm like, no, reality is, is we're all human beings

walking around, like, fucking, like we think we're conscious. We're such animals in our instinctive kind of the way we move through the world. And we all have something embarrassing.

I don't know. We all have, and we don't look at each other like that. Like we, like as a society, as a group, we like celebrate people's downfall or they're embarrassing moments.

moments or there and I and I kind of like move away I'm like allergic to it I move away because I really believe that like if you can't hand over your phone and let everybody read your fucking text messages or you're this you shouldn't be going after them because that totally in my mind that reality of being a human is we all fucking have done some dumb shit or said some shit or I don't know and I think that the goal is is to live a true life in front of everyone. It's like I'm not saying that people shouldn't strive to change the world and affect large groups of people and organize. That's fine. I'm saying that they should be mindful of the power dynamic and how they present themselves as perfect or something. I don't know,

because I'm very careful about that. It changes you. There's no way that it can't. Yeah. If you go from your platform being five people, it be at a band, a preacher or some person on Instagram, from playing for five people to playing for 5,000 people, 5,000 followers, 500,000 followers, selling millions of records, whatever it is. It's going to change you. It changes your brain.

You cannot control that. That's something we don't understand. And then it's how do you combat that? And I think there's no way to really truly do good with it unless you're really working on yourself or you're in a really good spot. And most of us weren't in a good spot when those shifts happen. be it your little Instagram following that you're telling what they should eat or what they shouldn't eat down to a band preaching from stage or a pastor or whatever it may be, I think that shift.

No one's prepared for that. And I'm glad that our music, I'm sure you feel the same way, can be a positive source of motivation or comfort or anything that people find in our music as something in their life, right, that's helping them on their path to personal success. Totally. Personal growth and good health. I do believe that like if it wasn't my band, they would find another source.

Totally. Because they're looking for it. Yep. And I'm glad they found me, but I believe they'd find something if they're looking for it. So my encouragement to people is, don't follow me.

Don't think you're going to follow me. If I'm a source of positive, great. Keep looking. Keep looking for the positive and on the road to good health and good well-being and personal success and growth, or the other road is downward spiral towards death, ultimately. Longevity isn't just our health.

It's our mind. It's our self. It's our whole self. So anything that helps you in your path to personal success, and that's all the things, your health, your relationships, your happiness, all of it. You have to water the plant. Yeah. And so that's my thing is like,

there's a lot of positive sources out there for you to use on your journey. My message is always for people to find it, to look for it and to find out, find their, look, the transcendent side of life, spirituality, faith is really good.

On the path to being well, you're going to find your, you're going, I think you're going to need to find your version of that. because it is a real aspect of us. Like our spirit is a real aspect of us. But I just don't think there's just one way to be happy, healthy, whole.

Yeah, I don't think so either. It's different for everyone. It is. And that's okay. And that's also confusing, which is why I think people are constantly in turmoil growing up because there is no answer. You know, like, isn't that what we're getting at?

Is that like there is no, if there was a way to raise a, child right it's 2025 there would be a book already it's like the manual will exist here's the manual this is what you do this is how you have a child that's not going to have problems that you're going to grow up healthy and happy dude we still don't know yeah and i think this whole thing is that's what this is about is like trying to figure out what works for you because it's different for fucking everyone and that's so confusing and when you're a child you're not equipped to even understand that like why why is it different for me and my best friend john over here

shouldn't we just do the same thing? Yeah, no. Because it works for him. And it doesn't. And I think that's hard as realizing that you are in certain aspects of this life. You are on this journey alone. It is your life. You are in control of it.

And you have to find what works for you. Yes, you're not alone in the fact that you have family, friends, loved ones, relationships that you have. You're alone at the end of the day, though. Fallen asleep. Yeah. In your thoughts and in your brain. And like, what is good for you? And that's, that's, I think that's scary.

I think that's like, I think what it boils down to is as a child into your teenage years and then you're looking at moving out of your parents' house. It's, it's scary. Who, you're excited about it or not to the thought of like, but it is just you, what works for you, no one can tell you that. Yeah. You have to find it within you. And that's the journey you've been on. Yeah.

That's what I think. Yeah. I think you've been on that life journey. And it gets kind of wrapped up in music because our, the music and the band. becomes all encompassing of our life. At one point, it was my entire identity. Me too. And boy, did that, when Under oath broke up for a couple years.

When did you guys break up? The top of 2013. We broke up in 2012, and I think we did our farewell shows, bled into the very beginning of 13. Then when did you get back together? 16. Okay. So, four years.

It was good for you. Four years. Yeah. And boy, when your whole identity is, you know, when you don't love who you are when you start out and you're a little kid. and you don't really have an identity, you don't sure who you are, you're not really a man,

you're just a child that's not, you know, it's easy to fit in with a group, like, oh, now we're six guys, five guys, whatever, who're this?

Yeah. I don't have to be just me. We are this. Yeah. And then your whole identity, especially mine, like being the singer and like, everything was under oath for me.

I am the guy from under oath. Oh, that's who I am. And my life consisted of all this busy schedule and just filling in the gaps in between under oath events. Yeah. How am I going to kill the time?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of partying and going out and, you know, wasting time and then new under oath event, you know. And then when that comes all crumbling now. Yeah, what were those years like, those years between breaking up and then deciding to get back together? Rock bottom. Oh, wow. Like, it was, it got darker. But I started to.

Where did you live? I was living in St. Pete where the band. was based on Tampa, St. Pete. Okay, you can find some trouble down there. Oh, yeah, it was bad. It was the spiral had gone to the bottom. I actually moved to New York. I moved to Brooklyn in 2014,

and that was the start of getting better, which sounds crazy. You moved to New York, and New York's crazy, but for me it was, I had to get away from where I was. I was going to die here. Like, it was a slippery slip.

I knew everyone everywhere. I mean, I walked in a place. They knew my order, or they knew my drink, or whatever. Like, I could get away. whatever I wanted. I knew everyone.

Any band that came in town, they knew to hit me up. You know, like I was always the guy. I was the guy, you know. So I needed to delete most of my phone and, and start over somewhere.

And it was just, and being in New York, walking around by yourself. And, you know, I also fell in love with music again there because you're always listening to the music when you're walking around,

you know, you don't have a car and your, in your headphones. Also, no one in New York, get fucking cares. Yeah. Yeah, You're, and it's great.

I learned how to go out to dinner by myself. It's not so small, but I hadn't, you know, you're in a band. Like, dude, I have never done that. You know, growing up, it was like, always, always needed somebody with me, always. No dinners alone. And I just, I learned how to be completely alone. Yeah, be alone. And then that was a start of like.

And then you have to think about yourself. You're alone and you're like. Do I like where I'm at? Yeah. Do I want to keep doing this? And I was still making music. I made a solo record, a duo. like me and my friend made a record and hired a band

toured the world with that, played Wimbly, did Australia, Europe, multiple U.S. tours, crashed and burn, drugs and alcohol, the whole thing down in the ground as Under oath started to talking again, and I was actually on a different journey of, I realized being the crazy guy in my band,

then I was doing this project called Sleepwave and I hired a bunch of dudes that were wilder than me. All of a sudden, I'm the parent, and I'm the responsible one. I was like, this fucking sucks. I was like, if this is what I've been putting Under oath through, I got a fucking little wake-up call.

And then, so that's spiraling out of control, but a lot of good, you know, like the band did a lot for such a short time. And Underwood starts talking again about maybe doing a 10-year tour or something, like celebrate, like we did a lot, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. As I'm living in New York slowly, like the drug use had really slown down. I had changed the way I was eating. I started to exercise, and exercise really leading me to, completely get off drugs, which was awesome.

Because if I was like, I really like going to the gym and feeling better about myself and working on myself, if I get high tonight and drink too much and stay up to a four, five, six in the morning, I'd be too long over to go tomorrow. And then there was like the double guilt. Like I shouldn't have done that. And then I wake up, like, fuck, I miss the gym. Fuck, I'm not doing anything good for myself. How often were you, like, having, like, episodes with like a shame spiral?

Oh, daily. Daily? Yeah, when I was When you were out there, yeah. Yeah, but like That's a real thing, man, you go, I'm doing so good and then you spir-then you go out one night

and you're like, wake up and you're in like a shame spiral for a week. Oh yeah, you beat yourself up. I'm really good at that. Yeah. The overthinking brain and the like, Oh, it's terrible. Which I've really-

Because you're creative. Yeah. So your imagination is a lot more powerful than just the average non- artist. And there's ways you can work on the overthinking brain. It's just constant. It's a constant work.

You're constantly working on yourself. But it all started with that, like really moving to New York, Under oath breaking up, really reflecting on the fact that that's not my identity. You know, and I've found now, like, Under oath is a part of my life, but it's not my whole life. Like, I'm a happy, like, I've got a lot going on in my life

that I'm really happy about, and I'm really healthy, and I have stuff in my life that is more important than Under Oath is. Right. You know, like, and I don't need to show up for the, dude party. I don't need to show up and be like a bro. It's not a fraternity. If some people my band still feel that way that it is, that's fine. That's for them to figure out. But like,

I'm like, I do what I need to do. I make sure my relationships with my friends are intact in the band. I'm like, but I'm also still going to take care of myself. And a lot of times nowadays, it's like getting shit when you come back to the bus after a day off because you weren't around to go out to dinner with everyone and go to the movie or whatever. It's like, sometimes I've learn how to take that day where I'm like, I'm going to just be me today. Maybe I just need, I need to like sit my hotel room,

just relax and watch some TV. Like, I'm exhausted. Like, I don't need to be around everyone all the time. I can take my time and work on me. And sometimes that's like checking in at home, you know, um, you know,

FaceTime my daughter, calling my fiancee talking to my dad, you know, maybe go to the gym and then eat lunch by myself. Yeah. And just chill. you know, maybe like go walk around. And I don't need to be with someone in my band or crew

all the time like I used to. And it's like, it's been super healthy for me. And I all started with silly enough, New York, Brooklyn. That actually makes sense to me. Yeah. Because I think there's a healthy thing about living in a big city

where there's so much more going on and you can find inspiration there, but you can also kind of disappear there. Yeah, it was great. I was there for, a handful of years, like almost five years. And it was awesome. And it sounds like you guys really like got, how did the re, how did you come back together

and like establish that like, it sounds like you guys respect each other. It just sounds like grown men and you grew up. It's the same as our band. But we had some of those same key issues like, but then we got. We worked through it. And then we respect each other. I was talking to Jason in the fever and let live. Yeah.

As he's getting back together with Let Live, and we were just kind of chatting. He's a good buddy of mine. And he was... He's a nice guy. He's a sweetheart. I love that dude. And I love the fever guys. I love The Leigh, like, all that, you know...

I like all of them. All of them. Everyone, you know. The three of them are a force. It's... Stephen, Eric. Yeah, yeah. They're all those...

I love all those human beings with all my heart. But I had... It was funny because, you know, Jason was... Which posting about going into the first of the... Lettlive practice. And Let Live was on a tour with Under Oath early on, and then they were on our farewell tour. Right. And then we've done stuff with the fever after getting back together, because the fever came about

around the time I think Under oath was getting back together. Yeah. So we've got a lot of history with all those dudes, and I was just speaking to him about that, like, he was posting about, like, I'm going into this new, you know, this new old territory, like, about to uncover some wounds, or I don't know what this is going to be like. And we just started chatting, and I was just like. Like, from my experience, because I did it, whatever the outcome is, doesn't matter.

Just being able to even mend the friendships at all. If you guys play one show and dissolve or you go to be the biggest band in the world, it doesn't matter. The coolest thing is y'all getting back in that room. It is a special time to, like, because y'all did a lot. And you traveled the world and you made some important music that helped a lot of people. Whatever happened, happened. I don't know.

I don't need the story. But the fact that you get to get back in a room, you're going to feel all sorts of shit. You're going to feel weird. you're going to feel great, you're going to feel maybe like, oh, I still have a distaste for this guy. But you start to kind of work it out as men, and it's a beautiful, and that's the most important thing is mending that friendship there. Yeah. It's like, there's no rules either. That was really what it was with Under oath was I think we spent like four years not talking at all.

And it started like good though. Yeah. And then like when the group chat started to kind of light back up again and it was just kind of like, yeah, this is such a huge part of my life. Like I miss these. It's like family, you know, like so. He's like, you've got brothers and sisters or siblings or whatever. It's like, you're not always going to be perfect with your brother. Like, you guys get in fights.

It happens. You get, there's times where you're like, maybe you don't talk to your dad or your mom for a week because they pissed you off or you pissed them off or you're sending with your brother or your sister or whoever. You're like, family is tough sometimes. And that's what a band is. And I think being able to walk away from it and come back and be like, we're in different spaces now. Everyone's grown. Like, let's see.

we can figure this out and there's stuff that we still need to talk about, we can talk about it. I've learned the most powerful thing we learned how to do was communicate and that we framed it like, okay, we're all at the table. Everyone's perspective is real. It's valid. It's like you really have that perspective. Yeah. Like your perspective, even if I don't understand it or think it's fair or think it's right, it is actually how you feel. So if none of us are wrong for how we feel, as you shouldn't be, we can actually start talking to. about understanding each other. And then in the middle is where it all lives.

In the middle is where we all can actually work together because everyone's a little right and a little wrong. Yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah. Getting a bunch of dudes together to be like, that's how I feel. You're not wrong for how you feel or to be able to,

can everyone actually do that? That's a question I'm going to go have to talk down there else about. Can everybody? Can we actually all sit around and go, you're not wrong for how you feel? You're not wrong. But you're not. Because that's how you feel, but I don't know if we can all do that.

But you're not wrong. We've been working on that. Okay. So that would be the challenge, I would say, is see if you can sit at a table and say, everyone at this table has a perspective. Your experience and your perspective is yours. Yeah, you're not wrong for how you feel. You're not wrong.

It's so simple, but the fact that the truth lives here in the middle of the table where we're all looking. And somewhere in the middle, you're a little right, and you might be a little wrong, and I might be a little right and I might be a little wrong, but the truth of the matter is, is how we feel. Right or wrong, does it change how you feel? How we feel actually in, if we don't stop and say, oh, this is a feeling I have, it's not the truth. It's a feeling I have.

And we got to separate reality from feeling. Yeah. My reality is dictated by how I feel. If I think it's a bad day, if I feel like this is a bad day, you come in and go, what a fucking great day. I'm like, what? It's a terrible day. Well, why is it a terrible day?

well because this you're like well i don't even understand what that means yeah because how we feel is how we see the world how we how we live that's our life how we feel every day that's why my kind of practices every day is to establish how i feel right when i wake up oh i'm feeling a little anxious i woke up anxious why am i anxious okay that's not real okay that's not real okay that's not real and then i get back to the middle where i'm like oh you know what today's a great day sunshining, everyone's healthy, okay, let's go. And then I have, I have a great day every day. But I have to decide it every day because I grew up in trauma.

So mornings are very hard for me. So I started through work learning when my trouble spots are. I find I wake up this way. I find I go to sleep this way. Okay, I need it over time, try to improve those. Because if we can master our thoughts, we can master our life. It's like that thing they tell you, like, in your relationship, you don't go to bed angry. Yeah.

It's a simple thing. You've seen that all over, right? Sure. You either come to some sort of agree to disagree. You kiss your wife or your husband or whoever, your partner. Mm-hmm. And you don't go to bed angry. That's a huge thing.

And so there are tools, right, for that. If we can't agree on something, we table it. And we actually try to identify a time. So can we table that until next week? We'll win next week, Wednesday of next week. I know it sounds silly, but it gives us relief when we can't agree. And then I'll make a little joke and she'll laugh or she'll make a little joke and I'll laugh. And then we try to get back on track with the joy part.

Because that one moment doesn't identify your whole relationship. That's just a feeling in the moment. You just, you nailed it. We cannot define something as a whole by a singular event, a singular day, a singular person, a singular. So we have to also, as a band, say this album or this month or this day or this tour or this show, however big or small you want to go with it, does not define us. This, yeah. And everyone at the table, your feeling is your feeling.

I can't change how you feel. I can only try to understand how it feels to be you from your perspective. So if I can do that, even if I want them to feel how I. feel. I want them to agree with me. I'm not going to get anywhere if I don't know how they feel. And so if I learn how to listen and hear and feel and then say, okay, I understand how you could feel that way. I might go, give me a minute. I need to think about it. I want to respect how you feel, but I also want you to understand how I feel. And I think somewhere we need to meet in the middle. And then we need to figure out what we're trying to accomplish and how our feelings factor in and how they don't.

Right. So some of our feelings might not factor into anything we're doing. It's just how we feel. And so we have to slow things down and try to compartmentalize things so that we can work together on the pressing matters. Like we got this show, we got to play tonight and you're mad at me. and what I like to do is go out there and both of us enjoy ourselves. So I want to understand how you feel. We got 30 minutes. Yeah. And so what I'm asking for is if you can try and tell me how you feel, I'll hear you,

and then maybe we can put it on the shelf. And maybe we can talk about it after the show. Yeah. Or tomorrow. How do you get on that stage, though? Like the guy that's angry, can you get on that stage and not have the anger? Well, you both have to participate. some people are emotionally, they have to develop.

Emotional intelligence, I think, is the most important thing we can gain, is to learn how to understand and process how we feel in real time, right? And we can start to track and see how other people are feeling, whether they tell us or not. I can tell when someone's anxious because I've worked on it so much for myself. So then I can identify that that anxiety is causing them to say things, do things. and it's not, they're not aware of it. I can sense when, the people I'm close to,

I can sense when something is off. I can sense if you're upset or you're angry or you're sad or you're anxious without them saying anything. There's a handful of people in my life I can do that with. And when someone's focused on, when they're anxious, they're focused usually on a source

of what's causing them to be disturbed or upset or afraid. and so they'll hyper-focused on something that actually probably doesn't make sense and it probably doesn't matter. It's like someone who thinks they're dying, they're having a panic attack, they're not dying. No. And so they're saying, my throat, my throat,

and you're like, your throat's fine. You could tell them anything. They're not going to hear you. So you can't do that, actually. You actually just have to try to help them through it by what a therapist would do would be like, okay, why don't we try breathing, why don't you wiggle your toes?

Why don't you like, there's different things. people that are having panic attacks. But all I'm saying is like, I think it's called emphatic listening. And it's like being able to hear someone and understand how it feels to be them in that moment without pulling your perspective in and trying to get them to see what you believe you, right? Not trying to change their perspective. You're just actually just trying to listen. And then by even doing that, it brings it down. And then you have to kind of almost like constitutionally agree with yourself that you're not

going to judge their perspective or try and change their perspective. You just want to understand it. And then actually that I find opens up dialogue even if like, like let's say before a show Under oath's about to go on. You have 30 minutes. Somebody's mad at someone. And you go, okay, I can tell you're mad at me. or I feel like you are.

I know we don't have a lot of time, but maybe you can tell me how you're feeling. And then they're like, well, I feel like you do this. And you're like, instead of defending that and go, no,

I don't do that. Because that's what a lot of people do is they go straight into the accusation of, you always do this or you're so this. Right? That's like a very undeveloped way of saying that you feel like someone isn't appreciating you

or someone isn't acknowledging you or whatever. And then instead of going, no, I don't go, I don't want you to feel that way. I don't actually want you to feel that way. I think that's something we should talk about. I feel like I don't have a good answer for you right now and we have now 20 minutes ago. So could you accept that I hear you and like can we go on stage and do this together? I want to enjoy this with you because I like you. And I feel you. I understand that you're mad at me and I want us to work on that.

Can we do it tomorrow? Or can we do it next week or whatever? Most of the time people will actually get on board and go, actually, yeah, I feel like you're acknowledging that I'm upset and yeah, let's work on it. And then that starts to like... That takes a lot of maturity and I think that like... Weird. No, but I also feel like it's brilliant and simple, but I don't think bands can do that at an early age.

It's hard to learn how to do. I think that takes all that... It takes age. I think under oath is to the point where we could probably do that. I think you guys could. We've been in a very, we're way healthier than we've ever been, but we were a very, very unhealthy band, whether we like to admit it or not from the get-go.

Why do you think that was? I don't know. I really don't know. On the outside, I would have never guessed it. I think everyone just had their own stuff to work out. Yeah, and I think, and I don't think they were able to do anything. We've just spent the last 30 minutes talking. Well, we couldn't either until we were like well into our 30s.

I think that your feeling is wrong. It was under oath for 20 years almost, you know? And I think my feeling is right. And he thinks his feeling is right. He thinks he's feeling is right. And everyone else is wrong. Maybe that made you guys like a fucking great band. It probably did.

There was a lot of tension. But the best thing I can say now is that we hear each other out way more than we used to. We coexist way more than we. we used to. We accept each other way more than we used to. And we made a record not in turmoil. We made, and I know everyone says this, but I truly believe I've only felt this way twice in my life. I stand by every record and every song we've ever made. But I've had this feeling twice. It happened when we made to find the great line, which is a record that tons of people quote about, that's the R. Pinnacle or whatever, that same feeling when I heard that product back,

I have when we made this record. And I explain it to where I think you always make the best representation of where you are at that time. Every time you make a record, but sometimes we're not in that great, we're not in a great place. Sometimes the band's not in a good place.

Sometimes us as people aren't in a great... If you look at your life like this, sometimes you might make a record when you're right here. And maybe that record's flooded by all sorts of outside feelings and anger towards each other and distaste

to where it kind of makes a mediocre record. But when you're at a really good spot personally, and each member's within reason there, and you make a record that you're just on fire, and things are just fucking happening. And it's like, oh, my God, we're capturing all this. And then you push playing, and you're like, fuck, we did that. I thought that way, Undefined the Great Line,

we were in a really good spot making that record. That's why we're in a band together. We were made that record. We were like really unhappy. in certain ways with the way the first record went chasing our first record chasing safety and we were also on a high from some of the things that we worked so hard to do we came in the studio with a fucking motive we wanted to feel we wanted to feel like why that's not who we are this is who we are and then we push play we were like fuck that's it and our managers and labels were like why is it

like that why didn't you make this we're like trust us and then you know the record changed our I felt that way when we made this record that came out today actually congratulations thank you we made something we were like

like I said sometimes we don't always make the record in our best spot yeah and right now under oath is in a really good spot and we captured a record to when we push playback

I felt that same like you caught lightning in a bottle yeah it's really hard to do and you can't fake that you can't force that you can't be like hey guys let's go in the do and catch lightning in a bottle. Some specials got to happen.

No, you know. We were just, it's just a good time, man. We were, we were, we were firing in a really good cylinder, everyone. Not just one guy, not one of us carrying someone else's dead weight. There was none of, they were just, just came to a head. Yeah. And when I heard it back, I was like, that's the goal, right? So I listen to everything.

But when it comes to heavy music, what do I want to hear? Because I don't listen to it all the time. I run it all the time. Yeah. So what is it that I want to hear? Let's make that. because I don't know what I you know like let me

what is it that I'm missing what do I want what am I not getting and then when that started to happen and you push play and looking around everyone is fucking dudes are standing on chairs and walking around the

we made it in like this house and like these are like head banging and walking around the kitchen I'm like we did it because if me and my five four friends yeah if you like it that's all that I care about

like I don't care what everyone's gonna say they're always gonna be mad when you make new songs people oh it's on your old shit I don't fucking care. Yeah, whatever.

I'm so over caring about that. I don't fucking care. Yeah. And that's, we have the best fans of the world, but no offense, I don't care. What I care about is when I look at Chris,

I look at Tim, look at Aaron, look at Grant, and the guy producing, and everyone's like, fuck yeah. And I'm like, okay, that's it.

That's the feeling. Because all I care about is the guys I made it with, everyone thinks that that's the shit. Right. That song fucking rips. That song can come out. Yeah.

If we don't feel that way about the next song, let's keep working. So this time I feel like All things consider all of the shit We've been talking about with our relationships And where we are are we quite To where we're just where we're talking about

Accepting everyone's feeling 100% yet I don't know if we're all the way there yet But we are in a better spot than we've ever been Even from the get-go of this band Through all the turmoil Through all the ups and downs Through the breakup Even getting back together

We weren't at the spot where we're at now Which I think we're up here And maybe we could still keep going up there and the bands growing, the crowds are growing, the shows are better, we're better performers, we're better in the studio, we're better writers,

and we're better friends. So I see it going that way. And I feel like it's like an era beginning. Yeah. Yeah. I said this in the interview the other day, and if you're looking at Under oath as chapters or books,

the first book just ended, baby. Like, come on, that 20 years, like closing out that 20th anniversary tour as we were starting to release new music. I was like, this new music is the next book. Right. In the trilogy or the whatever, how many books we were ever going to write. It wasn't when we got back together. When we broke up, wasn't the end of chapter one like that. All of that was here. Season one. Season one. And I think now we're starting the season two, which is starting with this record that came out today moving forward. It's exciting. Yeah, it does. It feels good. I'm happy for you

guys. Thank you. I like you guys. It's cool to get like a perspective like peek into like what was going on with the people. Yeah. The band is such a idea. It's such a, it's such a thing that's not, it's real. Like together we are this band. We put these records out. Your idea of me is this band. It's not me as a person. Right. And then you meet me as a person and you will formulate your opinion of me. And it might actually affect your opinion of my band. It likely will. Totally. Right. And I'm okay with that. But me as a person individually, any given day, any given year, any given era of my life is different. The idea of my band, you might still be back in 2006, right? That's fine with me too.

Right. But it's why I do this. To get to sit with someone and get a sense of them and then under, and then because I'm in a band, I know what that feels like. Everything you're saying, I have a very visceral feeling of like what those times and those situations feel like to understand, like every band is going through something because they're always growing as people. They're always growing as a band. And they're always fighting to make it and fighting to survive and fighting to try and figure out life and all of it while living in this bubble of being in a band making records touring

and trying to keep up with the success that you found yourself in. Because I never fucking thought I'd have it in the first place and I don't want to lose it. And I'm terrified of this. And then getting past. the idea that like this singularly defines me and that I am actually a real person that can have lots of different aspects. And I think about my favorite bands a lot.

Yeah. Bands that I love, like some of my favorite bands in the world, you know, like the deaf tones, for example, or nine-inch nails, as far as heavy music goes. And even Radiohead, my first tattoo on my arm is Radiohead tattoo. I love radio head. There's Radiohead records that I don't necessarily love, though.

Yeah. As much as others, does it mean I'm not going to the show? I'm going to start leaving hateful comments on their, you know, and I think about, well, they don't give a fuck. Oh, yeah. But also, like, it's not going to keep me from going to see them. And it's also doesn't mean that I don't think that maybe the next record will be for me. You know, because there's been bands like Nine Shnails, for example, that have released a record that I was like, oh, man, that's not what I wanted to hear. But it's not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm Atticus Ross. But then it didn't change the way I felt about the band and all the music that I love that they put out.

And then a record or two later, boom, my favorite fucking Don H. Nogne Schnell's record. Oh my God. This is incredible. You know, and I think that that's learning that about my band and our fans and, like, the way I feel about some of my favorite bands is like, it's a wave, man. Like, sometimes you get up and ride it all the way. Sometimes you get up and fall off. And sometimes you miss it at all.

If you can't ride the wave, then, like, get out of the ocean. Yeah, you can like me too and not always like everything I do. You can also, like, not always agree. with everything I say. It's like, I like you, man. You and I could be friends. If I lived here, I'd hang out with you. I'd invite you over to dinner.

Me too. But there might be things in your life that we don't see on. For sure. And it's not going to change the fact that I like you. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, and I think that's how I've started to feel about some of my favorite bands and some of the, like, just because they release a song that I don't, maybe isn't my favorite song or isn't better than the one.

It's not always leveling up for me. Doesn't mean that I'm like, oh, they're done. I can't listen to them anymore. I think when you accept that about yourself too is like we're going to keep making music and we're going to try things and we're going to swing when that pitch gets thrown and sometimes we might

connect it and fucking hit a grand slam and sometimes we might get just the first base or sometimes we might strike out as long as we don't stop swinging at the fucking ball we're good man just keep going and keep doing you and as long as you're doing the shit that you want to do you know like under oath

the one thing I can say about our band as much as I've said some things about us not being healthier, we're, you know, ups and downs and under oath. The one thing I can say about under oath is we've always unforgivenly been ourselves. Yeah.

Whatever's happening in the scene or in the world or what's popular right now, we've never fucking cared or bent to it. We've always done what we've wanted to do. And sometimes that connected and sometimes that didn't, as long as we're doing that and we're happy, we'll continue to be successful.

Because I feel like if you're being true to yourself, Yeah. There's an audience for it. I've always felt that. I know I've always gotten the impression that you guys are serious about what you do, which is a really nice thing to see when someone takes what they're doing seriously versus whatever. You know, like, I'm serious about what I do. Yep. I don't care what anyone else thinks, but I have to be serious about it because that's my life.

Yeah. And I think that it's nice to see. I've always felt like you guys were, you know, well organized in what you were doing and serious about it, whether you feel like you were or you weren't, the impression I got was that I've always taking you guys seriously. We've always taken the music very seriously. And I think people take you guys seriously because you're... You want

people to get it. Yeah. You know, they do. Like, I hope everyone feels the way I feel about this record that we made. But if we don't, okay, we're always going to make more music. And we always have our own music. It was like, we're never not going to play all the songs. We've got songs that people love that those aren't going anywhere.

But I hope you'll get what we're doing. Yeah. I'm not trying to piss you off. I'm trying to make sure my band is intact doing what we want to do. And it's exciting for us and it's progressive for us. Otherwise, we're not going to do it anymore. Yeah. Because I know how we are because we need to feel like we're,

if we were just to make the same music over and over again, we wouldn't be, it's not worth leaving your family if you're not excited. It's not worth leaving it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know you guys are on tour with Papa Roach. Yeah.

It's awesome. I love those guys. The nicest dude. Yeah, they're great. Yeah. I bet those shows are great. They're insane.

Yeah. Yeah. It is crazy. And then what's next after that? So we, this is broken up into two legs. So this leg's about a month. Then we've got festivals like Sonic Temple,

Rockville. Oh, we're going to do Rockville. Cool. And a couple others fly out, you know, and then there's the second leg to pop a roach. Oh, great.

Yeah, we're busy. It's crazy. We're busier than we've been in 20 years. I bet. It's, it's nonstop. And that's,

that's a good feeling. Yeah. You know, can't complain. Well, you guys are OGs. Yeah, we're trying to keep it that way. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. Dude, that's so good.

This is sick. Yeah. Let's do this again. Yeah, we should. Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly. We really appreciate it. If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Instagram at Artists.

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