Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Taylor Goldsmith of Dawes

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Taylor Goldsmith of Dawes. Goldsmith wrote Dawes’ 2009 debut album, North Hills, in his early 20s. More than a decade later, he���s only continued to grow as a songwriter, resulting in the band’s ninth studio full-length, Oh Brother, which was released this past October. Before the band hit the road to tour those songs with Winnetka Bowling League, Goldsmith caught up with Madden about balancing being happy while also wanting more from life, getting better at being himself, and their latest album. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking to singer-songwriter, guitarist, record producer, and one half of the acclaimed rock band, Dawes. Taylor Goldsmith. Let's go. Let's say this is our first time speaking at probably, like, at Link. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's always like a party of... our good friend Matt's or Hills, and it's like, hey, good to see it. Yeah. But no, yeah, no. So we really got to spend a lot of time together. Yeah. But I'm a fan.

Right. Same. And I mean, like our mutual friends speak highly of you. So I was, I'm looking forward to this. I'm really, really happy you could come. But I think when I hear your music, do you write the lyrics? Yeah. Yeah.

Your lyrics are, let me say, like, not just clever, but they're wise. Oh, thanks, man. And you have a way of saying things that like, yeah, it just seems like wise. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, when I started, I just wanted to like, I was learning guitar. I was buying like, you know, amps and stuff. And it's like, I just want to be able to be on stage with the microphone and just do that. And then, and then, but yeah, I mean, like, it was really about like, what's my path to just get to do the thing? Right. It wasn't about the work itself. Right. But as the years went on and for me, it was like discovering, I think people had played me, Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan and Johnny Mitchell and like these like, you know, quote unquote, like wise writers. But I was. But I was. Poets. Yeah, like people that are offering more than just a, like, choracy bop or something. And I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I like these, like, freakish players and these high singers and just, I liked more of the, like, acrobatics or something.

And then when those artists like that really landed, then it all of a sudden was like, oh, I want to, I don't give a shit about any of this except for that. Then, then, like, being a writer was like the dream of all dreams. this is why I love doing this show. I get to sit with someone that I've been aware of for a long time, been around. You're easy to be around. But not, but I've, if anything, I think we do this as people. Yeah, yeah. We hold ourselves back from maybe having this conversation sooner than you coming on my show,

which I'm really happy you did. But I'm like, why didn't I just say that when I was at fucking Hillary's birthday or Matt's party? hard thing. I mean, if it's, I want to go, hey, so you're,

you seem really wise. But, but then you, you just in two minutes, you summed up, you gave me an understanding of actually who you are. And I never,

of course, like, I think, I love Bob Dylan. Yeah. Not a lot of people can do what he did now in a way that you,

that can be themselves. Yeah. He, it's its own sport almost now. And it's like, if you're doing it, it's like, are you just doing

Bob Dylan fantasy cam? Or, And that goes for a lot of artists. Or are you like trying to create your own space? And you're right, he's a potent flavor. So like if you are going to indulge in that to any degree, like how are you going to maintain your own identity? And that's a fascinating thing.

But that's the thing that like I never put, I love Bob Dylan. Yeah. Never did. When I listen to your music, I didn't think Bob Dylan. That's great. That's awesome. But then I hear you go, I love Bob Dylan. And I go, now I know what someone was a sponsor.

to try and do was create something as important as what they were inspired by in the first place. And then I go, oh, because I think that your music is important. I think what you do is important because it's like art is the good fight. Yeah. If someone isn't fighting the good fight in actually making art, it can literally all go away.

And that good fight, even when you're in the fight, you can lose your sense of direction. It's easy to like see where you're getting your returns and just follow that. Like, I feel like, I know, I'm sure you do too, like so many incredible songwriters that when they saw a certain quality of theirs, whether that was their angst

or their depression or there's some sort of like, just a dangerous component of their identity, they indulge in that because they get the best reaction from it. And that's not a path towards enlightenment. That's not a path towards, like, edifying your soul. Like growth. Yeah, yeah, it's not a path towards growth. And that's such a hard thing to, to, like, separate.

There's so many of our heroes that were like, but they're great at what they do. And yes, they are, but, like, is that good for you? Like, like, and, or me, or themselves. Yeah, some of them are dead. And so it's a fascinating thing within art of, like, it doesn't have, and I'm not, like, some sort of, like, you know, old fuddy-duddy that's like, you have to, it has to be good intentioned. Like, I don't believe that either.

But I do think that there's a responsibility and we can at least be, tangentially aware of what that is for, you know, we can all decide on where our line is, but it's, I think it's something you have to be mindful of. Actually, I'm so,

like, glad we're having this conversation. This is exactly the kind of conversation I hope we'd have. Yeah. Because I talk about this a lot. And some from experience, but also,

like, it's weird, because I feel like I have had success as an artist or something that people would call success. Yeah. You know, but, like, I don't know if I would,

what I would call it. How? I would call it success, but I would also call it an experience. Now, is that because the goalpost just kept moving that, like, you would just, like, no matter how big the show got or how big the record got, you're like, yeah, but look at that band? I think it's what you're saying, yes, but I think it's what you're saying. I think it was, like, became a search because I started to get a result, and then I started

doubling down on things to get the same result. And then if you're being really honest, that doesn't fulfill you. Yeah, yeah. It's super complicated and complex, because life is, because there's. the reality of life and living and then there's the reality of what it means to be you. Yeah. And so they're like kind of different. Yeah.

Because then like the reality of like making money and paying bills and doing this and doing that. That's reality. Yeah. And that's like one part of your experience. And there's no shame in seeking out that audience. And doing what you have to do to do that. I had a very complicated relationship with that side of life because I came from a really like

was poor. My parents didn't have their shit together. Right. So security was a really valuable thing to me. Like it was something like the only thing I wanted. Yeah. And so you kind of limit yourself to being this really like linear person who only wants security.

Yeah. But then when you get to a place where you have it long enough and can hold it and it becomes normal, then you, I think, start to think like, well, no, what, wait, what else do I want to actually experience in life? Yeah. And what's the cost of that? Yeah. and then going off on some journey, something like that.

But what you're saying is exactly what I think. It's like artists can actually have a real moment where they bleed on a record, some angst or some pain. And then everyone's like celebrating it. And then they start to replicate it. Yeah. And then it's like at what cost, right? Yeah.

Maybe they just get big, big, big, and then they die. Yeah. Like sometimes there's some artists that I, that I love that when it's so, raw that I'm starting to feel like is this am I enabling someone who's like unwell right I need actually get well yeah like like someone that like just as not people that I know just like as a fan am I cheering you on at your worst um yeah because you because you know the language so well and that's a really hard thing to square like I but again it's like it just in some of these cases those people might put it all in the work and go home and have a have a totally normal adjusted life I don't know I mean I don't

know that story very often, but, but, um, but then there, yeah, then there's, so it's a, it's a, it's a very fascinating line to draw. And so for me, like, it became, I became obsessed with writers, but I also became obsessed with, like, the context of their lives. Um, and I looked at, like, you know, I always loved Bruce Springsteen, but like, as it went on and as he, like, you read his book and you watch any number of his, like, hundreds of documentaries he releases now, and he has this voiceover narrative, it seems like someone that did the work on a human level. And I'm such a fan of that now. Like, it's almost like that's my favorite song now of his. Like it's, it's, and so I've started to like romanticize that component of like, who made it out alive

and who's thriving. Yes. Because of it. In a way that even feels reactionary because we always, we always like would maybe wince at that story. When someone was able to like be an adjusted, normal happy person. We're like, well, that's not as exciting as the dead guy. And so like, I... Yeah, who died a horrible death. Yeah. Yeah. And we all know that story too much. And when you're really close to it, it's really upsetting. Like some people like will talk about like, oh, look at these troublemakers and culture. Isn't that fun? Isn't that funny? And it's like, the people that know them are all heartbroken right now. Like it's not... Yeah. Yeah. It's not a beautiful, funny, charming thing. So yeah, so I became like, who's towards the finish line and seems like they have a good

perspective. That became a big thing I was looking for. You know, I don't know a lot about your, your marriage, right? But you're married. Yeah. And you have kids. Yeah. Yeah. The only people that can do that for real are people that are doing work. Yeah. Yeah. It's work. Yes. You have to get up every day and you've got do the chores, whatever those chores are in life. Like, show up. Yeah. And be a real person. And just like, and all the sudden, especially when you're in the arts, like it is inherently, selfish career path that we all went down, where we get to indulge in us getting to play with our toys. Like, like, and I love it.

And I feel so unbelievably lucky that I get to do that. But when there's, when other kids are coming around, all of a sudden, like, you are like the least important person in the room. And that's a, that's a relief. That's something that's really beautiful. But it's also for a second there, it's an adjustment. Yeah.

And so if you have been used to being on stage in front of thousands of people with like them like, screaming and reaching for you and wanting to know you or wanting to be you. And then you're like, wait, I have to wake up at what time and clean up what? Like, it's not that that was my experience. I've never been like selling out Madison Square Garden or anything. But whatever level you're on, when you're in this world and then switch to that real world that you're talking about, it's just a, it's a, it takes some thinking. It takes some real adjusting. And humility of like, so to be a member of a group of people where you're, you know,

I'd say being like a dad is like the greatest thing ever. Yeah. It's also like you can feel at times, especially being like a lead singer and then being a dad, you could feel like, this is a thankless job. Right? Like you could have that. I've said that before. Yeah.

But then I could, but then what I've learned is is like, no, you think you deserve a thank you for doing what you're supposed to be doing. Yes. Yeah. Which is just being there and taking care of the. humans and being a partner to your wife who's literally given birth to these children and gone through hell and also creates a home and makes things nice and brings order to a family life that if I was in charge of the family life completely, it wouldn't have the order it has.

And I've come to depend on that and appreciate that and also like just do my job and then also do the work. I go to therapy. Yeah. Because I want to learn how to communicate. Yeah. So that I can hopefully not, I hope the suitcase of issues that my kids take into the world with them that they have to work out is light. Yeah. Not heavy. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm going to have something. Yeah. Right. But I hope it's like a handbag, not a fucking suitcase. You know what I mean? Like, so that's what I've got kind of gained, you know, insight over my kids are teenagers now. And like, they're, like, they're. cool. It's great. You just have to show up. I think you come back to the entertainment or music or art or whatever of it all with exactly what you're saying. Like, yeah, I'm not as excited to watch a train wreck. Like, I don't think you guys, everyone that's clapping or commenting or you're creating

these gods of sorts, right? I think it's a human nature of like, it's not real to you. So you can throw stuff at them and you can say things about them and you can laugh. And you can laugh. or cry or whatever feeling you think you have. None of it's actually real. Yeah. It stops being a real person. It's just a projection. Yeah.

And we're celebrating a very weird thing. I mean, there is something that's intoxicating about it. Like when something like that is going through the news cycle, like in the music circles, I'm a little like, what happened next? But when you really drill down and think like, this is a real human being with people that are close to them, it just, it becomes a different thing. And I mean like, and that goes even for when the people makes me love your music even more. I appreciate that. But I mean, it goes for even the like I remember telling my, my therapist, like when I was, you know, whatever, we all have these moments of self-doubt and like lacking some sense of self-worth. And especially in the days of social media and the internet where you can like any second you want to, you can very actively compare your life to someone else that's doing a similar thing.

easier than that should ever be. And so it's easy to find myself in these, especially when you're like adjusting in her fatherhood and post-pandemic or like there's so many factors that were going on for me. But in this moment of like weakness with talking with him and saying like, I just like I, why can't we be at this level? Why aren't we executing this much material being released

or this many tickets sold or this whatever? And he's just like, you know, if you, like who you are, I feel like reveals itself whether you want it to or not. And no matter how, and maybe that isn't, I don't know, maybe a lot of people disagree with that and for good reason, but I just feel like so much of it is determined. And I feel like with me, while I might say, like, I want to go play

three sold out nights at Red Rocks and I want to go like do all these things. And someone said, cool, are you willing to leave your family for six to eight months and play like five shows a week and, and grind on a level that you don't grind on anymore. I might be like, oh, no, I'm not willing to do that. So it's like, well, there you go. Like, that's a part of this. Like, I feel like, and I'm trying to, like, tip my hat to the people that have created

that kind of empire. So I'm not trying to judge them. I'm not saying, but I do think that where the chips have fallen, granted, a lot of luck goes into it, and I don't discount that. But where the chips have fallen for my life, like, as time goes on, it's like, this is exactly, this feels right. for me. Like the idea of the bigger stage sounds fun and maybe it'll happen, but it's like, I'm the one that chose to write six-minute ballads with six verses in it. I'm the one that's saying

that I'm only willing to be gone from my family this often. I'm the one that likes to play acoustic guitar and not pay attention to the culture. So it's like, oh, this actually makes perfect sense. And that's not been a hard thing to kind of articulate well. But I actually like think it's amazing to hear another artist and another especially artists I respect say it out loud versus some other yeah you could say like no I want it too yeah I want to do that too I do yeah but I also know that the cost of it yeah that's the the same conversation I've been having is like okay we're talking about going back out next year this or that and then or trying to measure what we can actually do that our family can stand.

Yeah. Because essentially what I'm not willing to give up is my marriage. Yeah. And my family's closeness. Yeah. So can we have both? Maybe there's a version of it. Yeah.

It's got to be really thought out. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be very delicate. And then I also think that you're in this like very small group of artists. There's no time stamp on what you're doing. Right, right. So I think there's something like a version of you going wherever the fuck you want to go over time. Right. If you keep being yourself. Right. And the fact that you even just expressed all that to me is someone that's like being themselves. And so I think like some people, it's easier than others. Yeah. To go in the world and just be themselves. Yeah. Like some people have to curate every fucking word they say so that no one has any perception other than the one they want. Yeah.

And like, we can't control that. But, like, the freedom of you just saying what you think or how you feel about something is actually, like, I think the key to your success. Because I think where I see it going, and I'm a pretty good, like, fan of music in the, like, I can watch trends and I can watch things. And I can generally call the people that are going to succeed. Right. I think Matt's another one that's like it's taken time.

If we got what we want when we thought we wanted it, would it have been right? Yeah. And would it be the same? Yeah. Or is it not more important you take the time to become this fully developed thing? Because I see you and I go, you could fucking make songs forever. You're just, well, you're lucky. You're one of those artists.

There's no timestamp. There's no relevant stamp. Right. It's just, it's very hard. Which early on was like, like it felt like a curse. It's like, I want to be in the same conversation as these really, really cool bands. It seemed to have such a sense of what this year sounds like or what this moment sounds like. I never had that.

But I do think in the long term, it's nice because it's like, oh, I don't have to run that race. I'm not, I don't have to engage with that. Yeah, it's not. That's not a race that you have to worry about. And if I told you, if there was a song, if you look back over the last, of, you know, 10 years, right? Yeah. You were like, there was one song you wished would have been, like, whatever the world

would call a hit or this or that. Like, if you could pick a moment where maybe, like, you thought this was a result you wanted that you didn't get or whatever, and I could say, well, what if that was then forever the only thing that you were known for? Yeah. I would bet you would not be happy with that. Right. That's a funny, weird paradox of, like, I feel like one of the happiest, luckiest,

people. I love my life. Yeah, it's fucking dope. And yet, like, I, like, I have that struggle. Like, you would think someone in that position would be like, well, I love my family, love my wife, I love my friends, I love, like, my day to day. You would think that someone in that position would be like, and I'm so glad that nothing went differently because I wouldn't want to change exactly that. And yet there's this other voice in your head of like, but don't you want more? And it's like, it's a weird thing to have to listen to and then try to silence and kind of balance to what extent. Yeah, but it's good to talk about

because everybody wants more. Yeah. And if we don't, there's a problem, I think. I think if you're living a life where you don't want more, then you need to question what you're doing.

Yeah. Because wanting more is just like scoring another goal. That's it. It's like playing a sport and love. I don't ever want to stop going on the field and playing. Yeah.

Whether I score or not, the danger is not wanting more. The danger is at what cost. Yes. That's where you have to measure like, okay, that costs me too much. Yeah. I don't want to give up

who I am. who I am or my marriage or whatever it is that anyone would have to give up at any cost. Everybody's got a different version of what any cost means. Well, I mean, but to some degree, I feel like what you've cultivated is worthy of being very celebrated. I mean, the fact that we're sitting here doing this or like the live stream stuff that you got going. Oh, I love it. I mean, I've always been like... You guys did a Veepe show.

We did. Yeah. It was great. And it's like, you seem to have so many irons in the fire, and that's something that I really respect. And because I admire, I've always been the kind of person of like, I want to stack Daw's records. I want to write more songs and stack more Dawes records.

And I've just never been, like, there's never been this part of my head of like, Taylor, like, time to like spread your lens and try to get a sense of what else is going on. So that's something that, like, I feel like, I don't know, something that's something for me to aspire to. I think that's something for you to be proud of. Thank you. I will say this. I actually talk to Matt about this a lot.

You have a gift I don't have. Oh, I don't know about that. No, it's one that I appreciate. And I think the same thing about Matt. There's a well of talent there that I think I have talent. Yeah. I can figure things out. You know, and over time I've gotten the, but at the end of the day,

what I think we live in like a culture now, that we see too much because of all the everyone's their own TV channel and it's not bad there's a lot of good about that so I'm not like say like we're all on social media somehow yeah um it's drilled into our head that like this is success whatever this is yeah and it's kind of like none of it's actually true what's true is like who am i yeah and what do i what do i feel called to do that's been of a big lesson for me. I mean, going back what you're saying now, but also what you're saying before about there's these artists out there that seems so curated. And even heroes of mine. Like I feel like when I listen to or watch anything about David Bowie, there seems to be such

intention with each moment, with each outfit, with each song, with each interview. And so I'm not claiming that I don't think that that path, that approach isn't effective and essential and very expressive. But like any time in my life where I've ever tried to be intentional in that way or tried to curate a perspective or a personality, it's just like immediately feels so false. Yeah. And I feel like every time in my life where I've leaned more into, this is who I really am, whether I like it or not, sharing things with you or with whoever, like this is what went

through my head. I'm a little bit embarrassed of it. this is just what I was thinking about that, like, I've found that I've gained more of a closeness with other human beings, whether they're like just friends or, or people I meet or fans. Like, I just feel like the more I'm able to just dive in head first into the shit that is myself, I guess I'm just agreeing with like, with you that I, that I, you know, if I'm going to pat myself on the back about anything, is that I feel like I'm getting better at being myself and it scares me more and more and I feel more exposed. But even in my songwriting, there's songs that

like, on the latest record we released, there's these like goofy songs where I'm like, oh, God, this isn't what Mc Jagger would do. This isn't what, but I find that like, yeah, but it's what I did. And it's what, it's what came out organically. And now, not a coincidence, those are the songs being received the strongest. Like, it's like, oh, when, when anybody can get to that essential self, no matter what they do, whether they're playing soccer or playing guitar, when you can accept your relationship to what it is you do, to your relationship with the world, it just seems like everyone else is drawn to that. And I'm not pretending like I have this figured out. But I just see it. I think you have it figured out on a higher level than a lot of people.

Yeah, it's, it's a thing that I'm, yeah, I'm currently trying to finally accept for once and for all. But I actually think this is so, it's so funny, man. Like, today, all. my way in, I texted Matt and I was like, and I called my brother. My preparation for these conversations is not that deep. Yeah. It's more feeling. And I was like, what am I going to talk to Taylor about? You know, like, honestly, I was like, I told my brother I was like, God, I feel like so incompetent when it comes to knowing a lot about anything. Yeah. I love music. I fucking love it. I look for new music all the time, but I'm not like a musical genius or expert. I just am a fan of music and I make music sometimes. And I go, well, this is a person I respect. What am I going to talk to him about? I mean,

do I need it. And then I start over, in my mind, I start overcompensating a little bit, like, starting to prepare questions. And that's not how I like to do any conversation. I like to just have one. And it always ends up that way, because that's my process. I'll call my brother or I'll call my friend and I'll be like, what should I talk to him about? I feel kind of stupid. Or I feel like, I don't know. And then the person that loves me that I love will always say, me, just be yourself. What are you're talking about?

Just be like, just be who you are, which is. I love to meet people and I'm curious. Yeah. And I like to get a sense of someone. And then as a fan of music, every single time I have these conversations, I go back to the music and I hear it. It's an even richer experience. That's cool.

Yeah. Because I got to get a sense of the person. Yeah. And that's when I know. when I'm sitting across from an artist that is going to survive, the thing is someone who knows who they are and actually has a real life.

And their real life isn't wrapped up in who everyone else thinks they are. And that's what I think, the importance of being yourself, right? We live in a cynical world where everyone's going to say, be yourself. No, it actually is something.

It means something to like, you only get to be you. This is it. You don't get to be Bob V's. Dylan, you don't get to be Mick Jagger. So it doesn't fucking matter what McJagger would do. Yeah, yeah. What it would matter is, is that you find out what you would do by trying. Yeah. And then you look at what you did and you try again. Yeah. And then like that's, to me, that's a life. That's a life of trying and trying and trying again. And then every so often,

you'll look back. You're going on tour next year. Next week. Next week. Yeah. Yeah. Are you touring through. There's a bunch of dates in April two. So yeah, it's like through. So if you look at where you're at and you look back, you can say, oh, shit's grown. Yeah. Overtly. Yeah. And then you, two years from now, you're going to be making some other record you care about. I'm going to go back out and you're going to look back and go, oh, shit's grown. That's how it works. If you keep showing up. Yeah. And you keep being yourself. And I think that like artists and people just, we get lost in the sauce of like everything else and everyone else and so concerned about what everyone thinks. just the people that they care about, that they respect.

Yeah. Those are the people that I actually care if they came to me and said, I think this, I would listen. Yeah. Yeah. I think even what you're saying, like, to give ourselves grace too, it's something that it's a constant dance. It's never something you're fully arrived at.

Like there are, I feel, at least in this current moment in this conversation with you, like I am comfortable being myself. But I've looked at, I mean, I can go back in the catalog and find songs like, oh, that was my such and such impression or that was when I was thinking I was supposed to do this and I wasn't supposed to do that. And I think we got to allow that with ourselves. It's sort of like a diet or something.

If you put yourself on a diet that is super strict and you give yourself no leniency, then the first time you mess up, the whole thing falls apart and you're like, well, I'm a piece of shit, I'm not going to do this. But if you allow for that, that can be kind of built into your plan, and in this case it being like being committed

to being true to yourself, If I can allow for the fact that sometimes I won't be, then that's going to be why I can get back up on the horse. But if I'm going to have a gun to my head and insist that I'm always true and I'm always real and I'm always all the right things, I'm going to fail very quickly and then just like recede into my turtle shell. So it's like it's never, no one, yeah, it's never just a sea of unbroken green lights. Like you're going to hit some red ones and you got to like figure out how to be cool with that.

every day. Yeah, every day. I think so too. That's really well said because I feel like I go off track. Yeah. And then I pull myself back. Yeah. And I go, and that's not you. You just like, you were trying to do there. But like get what you're trying to do there. But like get back on track. And maybe it's something in the middle or whatever. But like that's the only way you learn what it means to be you is by is by doing some shit and go, yeah, I didn't feel great about that. Yeah. You know, I kind of didn't feel good about it from the get. And I don't know why I like kept going with it. But like learning what yes feels like, what no feels like, you know, is a kind of important weird thing to learn over time. And you're so like unaware of who you are. And like,

at least in the given moment, for me, it like when I look back and it's like, yeah, this is your body of work, this represents you or these are the decisions you've made in life. And you're like, oh, I see a sort of ineffable pattern. I see, I see like hints of a identity there. But it's like, I never thought about it in the moment. And it just, it's, it reveals itself. over time. So yeah, it's easy to get off course. But even part of that is like part of the picture. Yeah. It's all part of the process. Yeah. Because it is kind of like a tree growing. Yeah. And it's hard to say like exactly which way you're going to grow. And no two trees look the same. Yeah. Where did you meet Matt? How did you guys meet? We met, funny enough.

Matt Coma. Yeah, for people listening. A shared close friend. Yeah. It's one of my best friends in the world. Yeah, same, yeah. And he, this might sound stranger than it, I think it was. But I met him at shows a bunch. He was a fan of Dost. He was a fan of the band. And so I'd met him backstage a few times. I was like aware of who he was. And then Mandy, my wife and his wife, Hillary, were like Instagram friends. And like, Hillary was like, my husband's a huge fan of your husband's band. Let's all go to dinner. Cool. And so we went out to dinner and like Matt and I really hit off and like and we've been super tight ever since that was like that didn't we went out to dinner it was like right before the pandemic and so when that's said in you know his daughter may and my son

gusts were born like four weeks apart or something like that so we just immediately were in all those like parent groups and stuff and he was he had he had an older girl too banks and so that was really like helpful to every time i run into something i didn't know how to do it would be like what how does this work and he kind of guided me through it we're having dinner tonight oh sweet yeah Right on. The four of us. Yeah, it's funny how your friend groups change too when you have kids and you end up finding like your people.

Yeah. Because it really is kind of like you are having all these new experiences. It's not that you need answers. It's more like you need this like support group of people that are like, one, you just need to be able to put your kids in a room with other kids and let them play so that you can like sit for a minute. And like your windows of opportunity need to meet up. Like I have a friend of mine, musician guy who I love so much and we haven't gotten to

catch up in a long time. And it's like, hey, let's go on high. Could you go at 10? And he's like, oh, you know, like me starting my day. Could we start more like one? And I'm like, well, I'm out. I'm done. Like, I can't.

And it's not, I was, I was my own version of that same way. And I don't expect him to change his program. But it's like, dude, I have these two hours today. I have this hour the next day. Like, it's very limited. Which I've actually found to be really helpful being creative. I was really scared of that. I'm more productive.

Yeah, you're just like, before kids, it was just like, oh, I have nothing to do today. Maybe I'll write a song. And then I would very likely not even pick up a guitar, let alone write anything. But when there's, when something needs to get done and I have such a limited amount of time, it's like, okay, I have these two hours today. I'm definitely going to go and pick up my guitar and get something. And then inevitably I do. So like that, that was something that was the exact opposite of what I feared it to be,

which is thankfully. But, yeah, it's like. I actually agree. I never really thought about that. but you saying it, I 100% the most productive. And what I would say successful version of me is the one that's had kids because you have three hours, if you want to be there. Yeah.

You could also be like, I don't care or whatever. Everybody's different. I want to be there. I want to pick them up for preschool and have that joy of seeing my kid. And so I got three hours. Let's get it done. Yeah. And then you actually realize you don't need eight hours.

Yeah. You can get a lot done in three hours writing a song or doing whatever. And like you become more productive. A wife and kids has made me a more organized, productive, get it done kind of guy. Whereas I remember, yeah, when I was not married, didn't have kids. Yeah, I'd wake up whenever. And like I thought, oh, this is the artist's lifestyle. Yeah.

Kind of not really. Actually, you can still like. This is just the Netflix lifestyle. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's true. So like I actually think that a big part of my productivity in life period has been, we're coming up on 18 years.

Me and Nicole are coming up later this year, 18 years, so into the year, say 18 years. Most productive has been like as soon as we had that kid, she's going to be 17 in January. So 17 years of get it done because you got to, if you want to participate in family, which I always want to. Yeah.

You got to get it done at work. and the people who don't understand that, it's not that they fall away, but it doesn't work. Yeah. Just period. Yeah. You're just on it,

you're on a different schedule. And like, like, all the sudden that it's like, if I can't meet you for dinner at a certain hour, I can't meet you for dinner. It's not a judgment. It's just this is what I have. But, you know,

and I also, I try to be sensitive to that because I do have friends who, like, would love to have the wife and the kid's situation or their spouse and the children situation and they don't yet. And so it's like, how do I keep them in,

even though, they're like, I don't expect them to understand my schedule or my program, but, but, um, I know that like, shit, if it were up to them, they'd be in, they'd be in the same situation. So, like, sometimes it's easy to be like, they don't get it. And then, and sometimes they don't, but it's like, oh, I don't, that, I don't want them to feel ostracized because of that. So, like, that's something that I've had to, I've found myself needing to be sensitive to. And then the ones that get it, get it. Exactly. And some of them, yeah. You can only do so much. Yeah. Some of my friends, like, that have been, that have insisted on meeting my kids first are the ones that don't have kids so it's either to get or you don't

yeah what was it like going and doing the jony mitchell thing at the bull oh man they're so heavy i mean she was my like number one like when i found her it was like oh this is as good as music gets like it was all like the heavy music that i loved like like it felt like if i don't know who said this but someone told me this and i don't know if they were quoting someone else but like miles had the music but didn't have the words. Right. Dylan had the words, but he didn't have the voice or the music. And Joni had, like, all of it in ways that they didn't even.

And so there was some, when I really, like, I knew all the early, like Laurel Canyon, like, acoustic guitar like folk hits, which are so good, but folksy, like a little simpler. And then when she got into, like, these having jazz bands and records, specifically Hezira, that was something that, like, flipped me out. And so that, she was always, like, my North Star, my number one. Anyway, so when I got to be in her orbit, thanks to Brandy Carlisle, because Brandy... I love Brandy Carlisle. She's so cool.

And like this, this is to me such an imperfect testament to like what makes her so cool because she's Brandy Carlisle. If she wanted to have only the biggest names in music surrounding Joni, it could have been that. Like literally the biggest names you could think of. Bet you those people would love to be in Joni Mitchell's band for two shows at the Hollywood Bowl. And yet that's not the route Brandy took.

Like she let it be organic. She let it be supported with people that, like, studied Joni. Like, people that were, you cared on, like, a very deep level. And every time I would see Brandy, we were never, I mean, we're much closer now. But when I knew her back before the Joni stuff, we knew each other well enough to say, hey, at festivals. And I would always ask, like, what's it like hanging out on Joni? And I'd nerd out about, like, do you play this song?

You play that song? And she'd be like, well, you go pretty deep. And I was like, yeah, this is every. She's the one. Then one night she invited me over. Someone else, like, wasn't going to make it. and she remembered all the things that I had said. And so she's like, you gotta come over to Jonies.

And so, like, I was in. And that was like so surreal. It's like, not only do I get to meet my hero, but I'm in her house and I'm singing her songs with her. And it was overwhelming. And so then for that to grow into a Newport Folk Festival show

or a show at the Gorge or these two shows of the Hollywood Bowl was truly profound. I mean, it was like, oh, this is what we dream about as young musicians. Like, it's like not even, I mean, yes, I dream about the big record

and the big venue and the perfect show and the big song. But I also dream about kind of being recognized by my hero. I mean, like, that was always like the fantasy, you know. And that's kind of what Brandy created for all these people around it. And watching that show was such a eye-opener because, you know, at the Hollywood Bowl, they have like the, I don't know what you call it, like the lazy Susan kind of stage where it like turns around or whatever. So we're all set up.

and then we start turning around, so it's this very slow turn for the whole crowd to see Joni. And she's just beaming, like, smiling. And the whole place goes crazy for her. And it was this really, just that alone, before we'd even played anything, it was such an eye-opening moment of like,

goes back to what you and I were talking at the beginning of this conversation of what you've given as an artist. Yes, her songs are catchy. Yes, you can dance to him and stuff, but it was, she offered so much more than that. It was a wisdom. It was a guidebook on how,

how to be a decent human, how to be a perceptive human, how to recognize beauty when it hits you in the face. These people were cheering so loudly that it was just this massive thank you. And we like couldn't, it felt clear like we could not even play. And they would all be like, I was so glad I got to be there. It's like love in a different form. Like it's like people expressing love. Yeah.

It was a cosmic gratitude. It was just like these people are who they are because of Joni Mitchell's song. To me, it's like the best form of the experience of music when you think about all the different ways we can experience music and all the different ways we can love music or artists. That is like the highest form of like to be in the presence of someone that's been with them through so many different moments in life or, you know, someone that matters so much to everyone. Yeah. Like Joni. But also all of you. This is why I fucking think you are such a G.

Like, such a G. You carry yourself with a lot of humility. You've always been very nice. And you're fucking with the, you're fucking with the most OG musicians. And you exist in a world of real true originators. And that's why you're one. You know, they say real recognizes real and you see each other across the room.

I think that the. journey you're having as an artist, you have to be careful not to ever compare what you're doing with anyone else because you're doing something that's original and originality and it's on its own journey. And you're like, I say this to Matt too because I think he's like, you guys are very similar. It's probably why you're a good friend. He's such an OG and sometimes he's in the room and I'm like, looking at people, we're in some important room, right? Music business is so funny. So and so, at any given month, there's somebody that's like having a moment. I'm happy for him. Yeah. But we can't buy too much into the moment that we're having out there when we're in the room, the backstage,

right? When we're all in the room and we're all doing kind of the same thing. We're making art and we're going in the world. We're playing our songs and it's all going to be different for all of us. But in the room, we're all artists. But that's not how it is all the time. And I'm like, sometimes I'm standing in a room going, do you know who the fuck you're talking to? This guy is so fucking talented. And do you know what he's accomplished? Forget about that. Who he fucking is to the people that love him. Yeah. That is the part that I look at when I see who someone is to the people that love them. Yeah. Or to the other people that like a Brandy Carlyle. I love Brandy Carly. Yeah. In fact, I will say this. Brandy Carlisle is one of what I would say the reasons our company

Veeps, which is it's grown and it continues to grow. And I think it's important. The mission that I'm on with that is one that I believe it's got to exist like a platform for artists to stream their music live and like sounds simple. But like it's not that simple. It's very complicated for people who want to just be able to stream their show. This is weirdest. It shouldn't be that complicated. So we're on a mission to make it simple. How do I make one show that I'm playing as impactful as possible for the marketing side of like getting my music to people? Some shows shouldn't be streamed. Some shows should. Yeah. Right. But if I'm going there and I'm already playing the show and I'm selling merch and I'm doing all these things that you do that one does when they're

doing the business of playing shows and touring, shouldn't we not try to create as many layers to that to get it out to the world as possible? It's a pretty simple idea, but Brandy was one of the original adapters and believers and had a massive effect on our brand. That's right. That's right. And there is nothing that I would not do from a streaming perspective, but also maybe personally. It's not that I'm close to her personally at all. It's that I'm such a believer in who she is because I got to be in the car while they were making decisions around which shows she wanted to stream and not and all that. And watching someone make decisions with integrity that they felt the shows that lined up

that we streamed together, we've always kind of been like, you can only do the things. you feel about. We're not going to try to convince you. You got to feel it. And watching her process is like, oh, there's an artist. She's got integrity. Yeah. Cares about what she's doing. Cares about every fucking part. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, someone was telling me about that we just played on Kimmel yesterday and a producer that I was talking, I forget who I was talking about this, but they were saying how like you can tell the people that really give a shit. Like, like there's some like hot actor or comedian or whatever of the moment that is like here 10 minutes before they start shooting. It's like, I'm here at game. And then there's people like Tom Hanks or

or Martin Scorsese. These are the examples of this person gave, like who are there like first. Like like before even like the hosts there to kind of work with the other people to figure out like how do we make the most of this? And this is a late night interview. This isn't even like a they're not making a movie. And it's like when people care that deeply, you're just like, oh, that separates you. That's another thing. And Brandy has that.

And it's funny because it might sound contradictory to what we were talking about before, about the cost of like, how much do you give to this side of your life versus that? And I do think there is these, there are these examples of people that are able to like keep both things very vibrant and very real in their lives at the same time.

They're able to like, like work the cost into the work. And Brandy's an amazing example of that. Like, like, whether that's in what you're describing, what you saw, like the times that we played with her, especially with the Joni stuff, there's like, she's surrounded by her family. Her wife is, like, deeply involved with, with her work. Her kids are always running around. Like, she's been able to create the incredible career that she has,

but, like, also while being very much of a family person, I mean, it's a true inspiration. Yeah. There are so many different versions of, like, what you could build and what you could build and what you could have. You're right. I think it's not one way, right? Like, for me, I have yet to figure out how I could go out and tour for nine months

with my family because my wife has a career that's, it's not intertwined with mine. So we're, we're, so everyone has their own recipe. But everyone has their own way of doing it. You know, Joni, she is my mother-in-law's next-door neighbor. Oh, right on.

So I've gotten a meter a bunch of times. Oh, it's cool. Very nice. Cool, yeah. Very nice. Pretty special. Really. really, really, really special.

Pretty incredible to even just be in her presence. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. Like, you go through the music, then you go through the interviews, the books. I mean, you're just like, this is, there's been few human beings that have had this level of awareness and that have ever lived on the planet. I mean, she's, she's as real as it comes. But also kind of makes me think about the legacy that someone builds is built over a lifetime.

Mm-hmm. And I think we always think we're older. than we are. We always kind of, I think we think we should be further than maybe we are. Yeah. I see people that have built these legacies and they're in older age. And it always feels like they have a lot of wisdom. I feel the same way about my father-in-law who's like got this legacy. But it's been built over a lifetime. Yeah. And there's like a weirdly, he's super calm and really wise. Yeah. Well, it's like, I mean, a fun example that you have a picture of Elvis Costello. right there. I love Elvis. When he started, there's these, like, kind of hits. There's Allison,

there's radio radio. By no means, like, I mean, yes, he had a moment. He was the leader of this new wave thing in a lot of ways, but it wasn't like these radio anthems that are played at stadiums or something. But then, like, he kept kind of feeding the catalog, kept kind of feeding the work, making all these records. And then there was every day I write the book. But then after that, there's like through the 80s, 90s, 2000s, so many albums. And not really, hits, not really any of these like cultural moments like, oh, that was the year that Elvis headlined Coachella or something like that wasn't happening. But like you look back now and like, I remember watching like an episode of 30 rock and like he's in it. And they're like,

oh, Elvis Costello's here. And like he just became like I mean, I'm disagreeing with you. But like like how this, how a legacy takes all this time to build. And like even if those records, those are some of those records are my favorite records that ever been made. I love Elvis Castello so much. But I think it took building that whole picture for someone to be like, that's Elvis Costello. And for some people, they might not even know a single one of his songs and yet are very aware of who that is and what he means. It's built over a lifetime of being yourself. I think about this all the time. I meet artists who had a, or you'll even just see a documentary or a story about this artist that had this big hit. And you, you, you'll,

you would know the song, whatever song it is. I call it a one-hit wonder, whatever they want to call it. It's just a big song. It had its moment. And the artist had so much more that they thought they could give. And somehow it ate them up. And they could say, so many people could say, that was the worst thing that ever happened to me.

And I think about that all the time when I see artists that are building these catalogs over a long period of time. And like, it might not be as satisfying, slower growth may not be as satisfying during the process, but on the other side of it is a legacy that is built up of all, it's rich, it's got like, it's kind of like really like layered. Yeah. And I always feel like if I could choose, I think I'd choose that. Right.

Versus a song. Right. Right. And now it's sad that they look back at that and they go, that ruined my life. That's sad. Yeah, that's... And that, I'm sure there's a lot of factors there, too. Right.

But, you know, when we opened for Bob Dylan in 2013... That's crazy. We weren't really around him that much. Like, we were... It was made clear initially, like, he's not going to be hanging with you guys. He's elusive. Okay, we understand. Yeah, exactly.

He's elusive. Yeah. But we became friends with the crew. And at the end of it, the... And it's... This sounds like something out of a TV show or something, but it really happened. His production manager, I think... Or stage manager, but I think it was his production manager.

He took us aside. Like, I want to just talk to you guys. before you go and he actually had us come into his like office in one of the arenas we were playing at. Yeah. And it was, it sounds silly. Like, why wouldn't you just say this? But I don't know. This is the really way it happened. He had us in his office and he's like, it's been so fun having you guys here. I'm so excited for you guys and like in your path forward. But he's like, if I could offer any advice, it's don't have a hit. Yeah. And he basically said all the same stuff you were saying. Like I worked with Neil. I worked with Bob. Like anyone that's like had that moment, there just gets,

it just gets confused with like what the path forward should be from that and it's funny like I think you're right and I and I think our only option is to do the the you know slow burn build a legacy album by album without having the hit because that's it's just been made fairly clear like that I mean we're nine records deep at this point um yeah I think you guys are going to have hits where you don't expect them yeah I mean and if we know and if we just build it like like like fan by fan, like that Elvis Costello way, like that sounds great. But it, like you said, there is that part of me that like, wait, wait, are we sure that that works? Like, because I'm, I mean, I know how, you know, it's, it's easy to be like, you're playing a certain show in a

certain city and it's like, there's only 500 people here. Like this can't, we can't possibly have any cultural impact. And then in other city, sure, it's better. But it's just so easy to get in your head when you're really seeing the grind of it up close. And when you're around so many different versions of success. Yes. So you're comparing it. It's all, it's all comparison. It's, it's human nature. We have to compare and acclimate by looking around and going like, where am I at? We're always acclimating, right, so that we can keep going forward. But what I would say is, from my own experience, and not just making music, but then being around all these artists and watching everyone get their different ways. Because the end game, I actually don't think is,

I talk with Matt a lot about this. So I don't actually think there's a there for you. Yeah. Like, get where. Yeah, you're right. But how do I compare so that I can keep going forward and kind of adjusting to the reality of like climbing this, this mountain? Yeah, you want to keep burning. I want to keep growing. Yeah. And growth in a lot of ways is lots of people listening to your music, which a lot of people do. You have songs with like 50 million streams. Like, like, this is not a guess if this is working. Yeah. This is working. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's real. Yeah. I would say the room with 500 people is probably the most important 500 music fans in that city. Yeah.

I would bet you. There's a weird thing with art when we share. Who tells me about the good music? We all have our friends who tell us like, oh, this guy, this band, that. And we listen to them because they're connoisseurs of the music. The same way if you have a certain friend who's like, you've got to eat at this restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Or you like cigars, this guy, your friend who's like a cigar guy.

Or we all have friends. who are specialists in different aspects of like enjoyment and music is for enjoyment. What I've noticed about the people who like your music is they're very much important listeners. And it's interesting because like I think that you're you guys as a band, this is the thing is like I don't know if we're supposed to be any one thing. Yeah. But this is just where you found yourself.

Yeah. Actually getting to sit with you is like so great because everyone that knows. knows you, loves you. It's great. And you wonder about those guys. You're like, oh, it's one of those guys. Like, everybody like, but then you sit with you and you go, I get it. He, like, he's where he's at. He's being himself. I take it back to listening to the music. I tell you, I get to, I'll go and listen to your music and enjoy it more because I, because you're being honest. And that's the hardest thing is like to like open it up and go, this is who I am. And let it be what it's going to be. And I think that's probably a big part of your success and why you'll continue to be like the success you are in all the areas of your life, in your family life, in your music is the simple idea of like just being.

Yeah. And just being yourself. And I think for better or worse, all the people out there that have learned how to be themselves are the ones that are compelling. Yeah. Whether you like them or not. Yeah. They're people that you, they captivate all of our attention. because it's actually hard when faced with exposing yourself.

We're kind of taught that that's weak to expose yourself. But by doing it, you kind of become invincible a little bit. Yeah, when someone seems as though they're like they've embraced their own embodiment, like that's such a, like, I don't know, like you look at like young Jack Nicholson and there's, there's like, he's by no means like the most classically like Hollywood handsome guy you've ever seen. But there's something about him that like it just, it's this, this wild confidence, this wild acceptance of self where you're like, that's the coolest fucking dude I've ever seen. He's crazy. He's cool. And you're intuiting it so fast. And I'm agreeing. But like, but, uh, yeah,

that stuff just kind of like, it's a language on like a different plane. It is. What are you the most excited about right now that you're working on? Um, I mean, we have, we have a studio in our guest house. we turn it into a studio and we've been able to like kind of really deck it out and get the gear that we wanted and kind of really have it up and running and so we're my brother and I he's the drummer he lives down the street for me we're hoping just kind of be in there all the time like I feel like now is a cool time in music where I feel like not that long ago when we started um you you made a record and then you milked it for two three four years and now like because the like albums just aren't expected to like return on that investment anymore. It's really just

more of a business card for the touring. Now like these bands that are doing like record every six months. Yeah, whenever they want. Like whenever they want, they're releasing music. And that behavior is almost being rewarded like by more people engaging. That's something that's really attractive to me. We've always been a record every two years and we thought we were we were cutting them out quick. But now it's like, oh no, like we can do this every year. We're, we can do this every year. We can do this every six months. And the idea of looking at our catalog and being like, we keep building it

and we keep feeding it sounds really thrilling to me. I mean, you know, like, we've been talking about the kids and stuff. So it's like, that's obviously taking up so much of my waking life at the moment. But I, whether it's the studio more Dawes records or scoring stuff, that's something that we're passionate about trying to figure our way into.

I could see that big time for you guys. Yeah, we'd love it. We're just, we're just, it's, that's an interesting world. because it's like it's not going to happen until someone kind of invites you into that. Like we make music all the time, but it's like, but anyway, that's something that's, that's attractive. But I am proud of the fact that we still love touring so much and the fact that we can make that work. I mean, granted, we're not leaving for nine months at a time. Like, we're about to

leave for three weeks. And then we'll, and then we have like seven shows in December and then another like three weeks in April. And that'll be like every market in North America that we typically visit. But we never had much of a business outside the States. So it's not like a record of ours. The touring cycle is going to take us further and further out. Obviously we'd love that and that would be something. Probably will though eventually. Yeah, it'd be fun to cultivate that.

And we'll keep trying. Like we go to Europe and we play to the folks out there and it's always a thrill. But yeah, it's just like right now, it's like our touring is mostly out here so we can kind of like do the support we need on a record pretty quick. And I'm just glad that we still love it so much. Yeah.

I know a lot of musicians that are just like, get me off the road. I don't want to be, I don't want to be here. And even though I hate being away from my family, literally minute one, I'm like aching for them. I just love playing guitar.

Yeah, it's like an hour and a half a night on tour is the reason you're there. Yes. The rest of it, you're just missing your family. Yeah, and that's worth it.

It's hard. It's hard. That's why I wouldn't want to do it for too long. But to get to go to these cities and like reconnect with all these people and play these songs. I mean, that's a fun thing about being a musician is you can take your whole body of work and it's almost like this like a toy chest where you get to kind of, at least with a band

like us, like we're doing such different sets every night. So we'll be building a different little story each night with work that we made a long time ago. Like you don't, that's such a rare thing in art. Like you don't hear like, it's not like a filmmaker who's going to sit down and do some interview where he like gets to replay scenes from his favorite movies that he made or she made and like discuss them like that's not part of the gig. Um,

so the fact that we get to revisit all this stuff and kind of celebrate it on a nightly basis and then mash it up next to the most recent thing we've made. It's just endlessly fun for me. Yeah, that's dope. What's your favorite guitar? I'm a telly player. I have this,

I have an old blackguard telly that I, that I, that I now truly love. And before that, it was like a white telly. Um, every time I try to get in other guitars, like, like, I, I find that guitars tell you how to play them for me. Like I, I got, when I got my first stratacal Like, maybe I'm a strat guy, and it's just, and I love my stratocaster,

and I do pull it out for certain things, but I can't make a whole show work on it. And same with the Les Paul. Like, it's always been the telecaster. Yeah, my uncle gave my brother a 65 telly, a year into starting our band. Wow. He's a great guy.

He's one of the early people around. No one really cared what we were doing, but we only see him like once a year, and he heard we were starting a band. My uncle Linney, and he gave him this, like, sick telly. Now I know how sick that guitar is at the time. But we always, he still has it. He plays tellies too. Where are you from? Here. Oh, wow. Where'd you grow up? I went to elementary

school on Glendale and then, um, high school in Malibu and then, and then kind of floated around like, you know, before meeting my wife, it was like just all different parts of town, like Highland Park and Silver Lake and wherever. It's funny, man. I find that people that grew up here are really well, it's weird like maybe my experience of it my wife grew up here yeah yeah and she seems to be like really well balanced with how she relates to all of the things that i think took me a decade to get used to like everything was so big to me when i moved here it was like so whoa and i think she has the appropriate view of like what things are yeah she's also like very open-minded and like everyone just living their life in different, all the different ways you can choose to do that.

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that's cool I mean I do think it raised me with this like we've seen too much kind of attitude

Like it's very easy You could be shocked Yeah and I mean like it's I don't know like my

like you grow up I mean I'm sure you experience this on a daily basis too where you bring someone

the coolest thing you've ever done if you're in the middle of nowhere I should say like a smaller city than Los Angeles maybe be a nicer way to put it.

And if you've... Middle and nowhere works, though. And if you're like, this is the best thing I ever done, everyone around is going to be like, that's incredible. Like this, like, we're going to put you up on our shoulders. This is amazing. In L.A., it's like, what else you got?

Big deal. And it's like there, everything is, everything is we've seen too much. And I think that that can be really, like, um, disheartening if you let it be. But it can also remind you constantly that like, you're doing this for you. you. And you're not doing this for the accolades or for the reception. You're doing this because

you wanted to. And so that was like a, it's not a pretty lesson to learn, but I do think it's an important one. And I think LA kind of helps deliver that. So at least when you grow up here, it's like, oh, everyone's on their own trip. Everyone's very consumed with their own break. So I'm not going to really be too caught up in other people's thoughts about me. Yeah, there's a, it's like a fine line because you could be jaded or you could be experienced. And there's another, There's a healthy side of it that is something that keeps you motivated, keeps you working. And I do feel, at least for me, there's a kind of darker side of it if I let it get the better of me. Yeah.

We're like, I made the joke once where like living in L.A., I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like mad at myself that I've like still never written the script. And the reality is like, I don't know anything about that. I don't want to write scripts. I don't plan to. Yeah. And yet when you're here, you feel this weird pressure to do everything at once. And like, and you know, you could trade in script writing for anything.

Anything. And it's like if I lived in Montana, I'd be like, no, I'm a musician. I tour when I tour. When I'm home, I don't do that. I don't need to like worry about some other avenue or so. And the weird thing is I think that that is cool to be motivated in all directions at once. So it's not a bad thing. It's just only bad if you let it get you carried away. And that's the thing that like, like if I use it to inspire me to like get back in the game and try something new or just to get back in the studio and write another song, then it's like, this is, this is, this is, I'm using this to my. advantage. I'm staying motivated. But if I let it like make me want to just like feel sorry for myself because I'm not utilizing every second of every free moment, then it's just harmful. And this is why I know your music fucking matters. Because we're sitting here having this experience and I'm like just another guy. You could have come in here arms folded. You could have resisted. But then I would say like don't come. Yeah, yeah. Like that should be the decision making process of like how we go into a room is like if I'm going to go in arms folded and not be a joyful, nice person that's like we have a good experience, even just meeting. And why am I going in that room at all? Yeah. But we force ourselves, you know,

and then we end up not being in our true, like, like happy place. So I think it fundamentally goes all the way back to like, am I enough just to be me? Yeah. Just to have my wife love me. My kids love me. My brother. I work with my brother too. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah. It's cool that you guys work together. Yeah, that's the shit. The coolest shit. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think it's something to aspire to as long as it's tracks with like where you're at and where one is at with their lives. I mean, I look at people that are able to be like, I don't do that anymore because the joy stopped coming for me. And I'm just like, whoa, I've never even thought of it that way. I just like, like, this is who I am. So I do it. And I think if someone, I also like, there's like fear caught up

in it, like you look at these old, old, old rockers that are still doing it. And people are like, why are they still doing it? Part of me is like, because they probably are scared of dying if they don't. Like, like, you feel like you still have some sort of purpose. Yeah. So, like, not that I'm afraid of dying quite yet, but I think that this question of like, am I doing this in order to just hold on to a sense of self? And I'm not allowing my sense of self to come from just like who I am when I just be.

I mean, yeah, when I meet those people that are like, I don't work anymore, I retired at 40. I'm just doing this now. And I'm actually able to find a lot of joy. a lot of purpose. I'm like, wow, you, you are, you figured it out. That is so cool. As long as you can afford it and you're not being irresponsible to your family. Yeah, well, I think that like everyone has to work.

Yeah. On something. So if you're not making music, you're going to have, you're going to have to be doing something to like still, like, I do think if you stop working, you do deteriorate. I think so do. But I think that that answer gets, that question gets answered organically. Yeah. If you're forcing yourself because it's out of fear or out of,

Like, I think anyone that's at an adjusted, open-hearted place, you're going to, even if it's like, oh, wow, like, I've just, I've been going to this coffee shop and someone over there, like, does, like, pottery class. I'm going to start going to the pottery class. And all of a sudden, I'm, like, identifying with that, and I do it now. Like, I just think that if you're living in that open space, it, the world just comes in. Yeah. So, like, that, that would happen. But, yeah, it's really, if you're closed up, like, I'm not doing shit anymore, then it's like, that's another problem. That's some other problem. I do think that you are one of the few lucky kinds of artists, which goes back to kind of the classic thing. And this is why I actually think you're, I think you do it because you're an artist and you love it.

But I also think that like you've been perfecting your craft over nine records. And so the development of you as an artist as a songwriter as a musician, I still think that your most exciting era is ahead of you, which is cool to see. It's what anybody wants. Not everyone gets to say that. I say the same thing to Matt about his music. I'm like, dude, your best era is ahead of you.

Yeah. And not everyone has that opportunity. Yeah. Fucking awesome, man. Yeah, it's fun talking. It's really, thanks for coming. Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome.

Yeah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Artist Friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support, and we'll see you next time.