Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Tim Kasher of Cursive

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Tim Kasher of Cursive. Kasher has fronted Cursive since the mid-’90s, leading the band through emo, post-hardcore, and dissonant experimentation. Having just released their 10th studio album, Devourer, which represents “personal imperialism and the imperialism of relationships,” the band will support their Omaha peers Bright Eyes on tour in April. In a conversation with Madden, the Nebraska-born indie rocker delves into his love of directing, the steady growth of the band’s near 30-year career, and Devourer. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? It's Joel. Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly. And you may or may not know, I host a TV competition called Inkmaster, and Inkmaster is back. A new season is now streaming. The OGs and Young Guns are going tat to tat in this epic battle, now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Go to Paramount Plus.com to try it for free. Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is Artist Friendly. On this episode, I'm talking with singer, songwriter, producer, and the frontman of the band Curseve, Tim Casher. Let's go. I don't want to bettimes.

I don't want to have bad. So how are you doing? Oh, I'm good. I'm really good. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for coming. What do you want to talk about? Oh, geez.

Well, I mean, we were just going into, well, we were talking about the management company that you all have been doing. I was just, the other point I was going to make, too, is that it sounds like you're open to the idea. of sometimes you don't even need label representation. Sometimes management representation can kind of handle those aspects, can handle those aspects as well, which I think is interesting. I think that's something that kind of came up, maybe, I don't know, shoot, I'll just lob it,

you know, maybe 15 years ago. Yeah. Maybe a little longer even. But, you know, I feel like there was a movement of, oh, you know what it was? It was when the internet started decimating the industry kind of, you know, and like, it kind of like started carving it up. And so there started being that conversation of like, well, are labels even effective anymore? You know, and it's just like,

labels are just a brand. And I should jump to the quick that labels are still effective. I'm not dismissive of labels. They actually are still tastemakers, you know? Yeah, and good teams are effective. And some labels have good teams. But to recognize that you don't necessarily, that might not be the route that your project has to take. It's not a necessity. Yeah. And some people find their way and do it really well on their own. I do think that if you look under the hood of anything that's succeeding, you find a good

team of people working together. So whatever that is, whether it's the band, whether it's the band in their management, the band in their friend and their label, whatever. But I think people make a difference always. Sure. And the career of an artist is funny. Like, you do get a lot out of the people that you let in and you let them, participate in the good people that come in if you treat them well and you build bonds and you

like have something good and also just how I felt like there was a time in my career like 2011 whenever like you're talking about the internet starts to like break everything open everything's crashed and burning and everyone's like it's over there's really a time where everyone said it's over yeah no I remember and the sky has fallen sometimes yeah right and I remember and I remember how I'd never been through that before. I had just come off of 10, 11, 12 years of just hardcore work, touring, go, go, go, go, go.

Everything was working. And then I remember that time, it felt very bleak. And it felt, I was like, is it really over? I think it might be. I don't know. I've never been here before. So I had nothing to call on for that. And maybe the 90s when CDs they stopped, I don't know, but I wasn't

there. We really kind of broke out in 99, 2000. I don't know. So anyways, we, we, it was very hard to get anyone on the phone or to get any kind of, I say that metaphorically speaking, get anyone on the phone, like for any, no one was excited. Sure. No one was interested.

And you're talking about it in when? 2011, 12. Yeah, yeah. No one was interested. And it was really depressing. And I really struggled. I was very depressed and I was very sad. And I thought it was over.

And I was very scared. because I think I had spent 12, well, when we started the band in 96 to 2011-12, there was like, you know, it's like 15, 16 years of just running away from everything I think I was trying to escape that I maybe never dealt with. And then you get on the other side of 2011, 2012, and your worst fear in my mind, my worst fear had come true. Irrelevancy and unimportance and all the things, you know. And I was really sad. And I had my, my worst fear. I had my worst fear had come true. irrelevancy and unimportance and all the things you know and I was really sad and I had my wife at the time I had met her we'd we'd been together for a while we had two small children and like she was the person who like my brother kind of had always had this attitude but he couldn't get he couldn't reach me because we were too interconnected and she was the first person that was like what do you fucking care about. You care about that? Like, you have a, you have two kids. You have me. She's like, I'll move to a fucking farm. I'll move wherever you want to move to be happy. I just want you to be

happy. Like, you need to go figure it out how to be happy, not with music. But as, also, as a writer as as well, and as an artist, that's not, it's not, it's not unfounded or it's not like you're not, that's not, it's not wrong to feel upset about that too. The thing is, like, no, like, the response might be. It's like, Of course, love our children, love our children, love our family life. But I also have this career that, you know, that I like that I'm concerned about that I've worked a long time on. I've been thinking about this a lot lately with this. I mean, so yeah, by the way, we're, our bands are about the same age, you know, like our, we started in like 95. But the feeling of a relevancy, it's so, it's, it's just relative.

It's totally relative. Yes. And I've gone through, I've gone through that. And really, so around 2011, let's just say, I mean, I wasn't. really privy to these conversations back then. But as far as like, you know, skimming the surface of what you're talking about, it's like, well, you, everything you were doing was still, like, incredibly relevant. It's just that you can't, I think for like most artists, you can't really live in the spotlight forever. Yes. What's really should be the dream for so many artists,

especially if you kind of start working on a, you know, on a professional level. Yeah. Whatever that may be is that the spotlight's not going to be on you forever, but hopefully once it like as it, you know, like finds the other, you know, the next hot thing that it wants to shine a light on. Well, the hope is that your relevancy is like your, is that it still has you set up. Yeah. Like you're set up now and you're no really, you may not be in the spotlight anymore, but there's still your audience is still there and is still, you know, like clamoring for like the next thing. And then sometimes that becomes relative to maybe the, maybe the crowd's not as big as it once was because the spotlight's not on anymore,

but that's still kind of, it's just a minor adjustments, you know? And maybe back to like what your spouse was saying, it's like, it really shouldn't matter, you know? Like it kind of, it doesn't matter, but it does to an extent. It matters in the sense that you figure out who your audience is and whether it's bigger or smaller,

or maybe it's not over here anymore. Maybe it's like over there. You know, these things change and shift. I mean, think about also for doing this for nearly 30 years. Don't you find such respect? Don't you appreciate it so much when there's people in their 40s or even in their 50s

who still like what you're doing? Because it's like, that's so cool because in this country, in the U.S. in particular, music is for the young, and music is for the youth. It is, yeah, it's like, consider it a youthful thing

to care about music. Yeah, which is weird. And then you stop and you turn maybe, like even as young as 25, let's just say you turn 30. And then you're like, okay, well. Don't go to concerts anymore. Yeah, so my music is Smith's and Cure

And, you know, like, that's what I grew up on. And so that is my music. And I don't, in music, and then you start saying things like music's not good anymore and all the silly things that older people like to say. Which isn't true. Yeah. There's a lot of good music. But I think you're right. I think the core of what you was saying was what are you measuring as success. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's not audience size. I think it's a feeling you get from doing this thing the way when the way you started. You did it because it made you feel good about your. It made you dream. It made you, you needed to. And then you also realize as you get older, it ebbs and flows. It's just it ebbs and flows and that's life. And then you kind of start to appreciate the ebbs and flows. You appreciate the downtime and then you appreciate the busy time. The only age can teach you, I think, though, those, some of those lessons. I agree with that. Now I wouldn't trade it. If you said, you, okay, you get to go back to 99 and relive that decade, I'd go, hell no. I want to stay here. You could go back and do it. So I always, whenever, okay, that kind of makes me think of, because it's such a common thing for

people to say, like, common adage, I guess, to say like, oh, if you could go back and do it all again, people generally like, oh my God, high school was so awful. I would never want to do it again, things like that. I often feel like, I've enjoyed my life and I would go back and do things over again. But as far as, yeah, as far as like the success of the odds, I also don't feel compelled to need to do that again because I already did it once. I actually think I'd be a little bit bored to do it again. Also, I think what you're getting at as well is I feel so fortunate that this, actually like specifically like this past year, I've been just out on walks and finding, and I'm just been stopping more often and just thinking to myself like, wow, this is it. Like this is like where this is like every, like I'm just really stoked. Gratitude.

Yeah, just like I'm, yeah, yeah, I'm really just thankful for where I. am in life right now. I'm just like, I continue to work hard. I continue to have projects on my desk, you know, have a good home life. And great. You know, it's in the odds. Yeah, I mean, we were finding a lot more success in that, in like certain moments. You see him, I agree with the Evan blows, you know. But also I was a lot younger and I was like having, and I was like not taking care of myself at all. Yeah. And it's just miserably depressed all the time. And yeah, I listened back to some of that stuff. And I think, man, like I still like the music a lot. And I still like the lyrics. Music is, is fucking amazing. The music is great. I was, I've been listening ahead of this. I, the only way I

prepare for these conversations is listen to music. That's it. I don't, Wikipedia people. I don't, I just, I love to ask questions that I really want to know. And even if it's a simple something that every fan would no. I still like to ask it if I don't know it. But the music is, is fucking great. And the new music is sick. Cool. Thank you. It's like refreshingly good and musical and like it's got all the elements of past music, but it feels new. And it's refreshing to listen to. And I was talking to Paul Thomas, our bass player who says hi. Yeah. Hey, Paul. And we were talking about how good the music is and how nice it is to hear music. Right. That feels like it has energy. It feels very honest. It feels like you needed to make it and you made it. Man, thank you. I appreciate that so much. It's so great to hear, especially, yeah, with a new record and all.

So good. But I feel the same way, too, just as far as, like, out in the world and, like, consuming new music and stuff like that. I think I can even feel like I'm tapping into what you two are getting at, which is that for me and for us who have been at it for a while and also are very guitar-driven band, you know, like band. driven. I also really get a kick out of when there's new music coming out that feels, and I don't think that what we're doing feels like old or antiquated, actually, at all, actually. I think it's just, I feel, I'm just trying to write, I'm just trying to write music like for every record, you know, but I do get a kick out of bands that are still bands. That's all. And not to like really like not taking a dump on, um, on, you know, the digital age. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it works for some people. You hear some stuff and you're like, you know it's

digital and still it's cool. It's like my kids like some stuff that every now and then I hear and I go, yeah, that's fucking cool. And I can tell they made it on logic in their computer, in their room. You can still hear the creativity. And I can still hear the creativity. But then I hear a record. I hear the new music like you put out. When I hear music like that, it's exciting because I can hear the live. I can hear the band. Yeah. And we've always recorded live. It's amazing. Do you guys like multi-track record live? Yeah. As much as we can. As much as we can, We always have to separate the cello just because it's kind of hard to, you know, the most ideal way to record the cello would be able to set it in the center of a large room and kind of be able to get all that natural sound. And that's where you put the drums as well generally.

But, you know, there's little things like that. And also Ted is a guitarist. He actually managed to do a decent amount of stuff live, but he also likes to kind of, like a lot of musicians do. He likes to spend some extra time thinking about what everyone's laying down. in working on what he's doing. That's cool. Of course, vocals, too, you do those later, but that's the standard.

I have an imagination, and I like bands that captivate my imagination, and I like to, I like to look at the story arc. I like to see what they went through. I like to see people. And so when I hear a good record from a band that's been around a long time,

it makes me really happy. And it inspires me. It makes me think I could do it. Absolutely. I totally agree. I go, wow, I could do that too. Like, it's a, there's a little, bit of like a hero journey in it like when you watch a movie and you're like you think like oh did they

beat him is he done because it's tough the world's tough and life is tough and we go through our own personal shit like we have a lot of stuff to work out as artists and as musicians and we all got into this for likely some therapeutic reason as well and like to work out our shit and then you see the band make the record and you hear it and it feels this is how your new music hit me it hit me and i was like oh wow this is good like i'm like hmm you know what i mean it doesn't feel like we always had to do this because we need to go out and play some shows right just feels like someone cared i just couldn't put that record out either yeah it was just i don't even know how to make that record well because i wouldn't make the record wouldn't

be made i guess you know and i don't even know how you made the record but it feels like someone toiled over it good like someone cared about the details i can hear little choices it's just cool and it's just it sounds i mean i think it's it's It's like really some of your, maybe your best work. I think it's, I think you're going to get a lot of new music fans that are looking for something that's not a, there's not a lot of it out in the world today. That's kind of the dream with anything you put out, right? You just kind of like, you don't really know what it's going to do.

But I love, I love to release albums because there's always that little kernel of, who knows. Yeah. You know, who knows? Maybe a whole new generation of people, you know, this will take off of people. You know, you don't necessarily expect it, but it's, kind of fun. It's fun that that possibility is there, you know? It is because that's art. That's why we love art because we don't know when a painter doesn't know when someone's going to discover his paintings and if they're going to care. And then one day, many years later,

someone sees the brilliance of it. And then it's interesting how that works. But like once you make it and then you put it out in the world, it takes on its own life. And it just, whatever that, whatever that means, you never know when it's going to become a moment that everybody agrees on. I know. You know? Yeah, it becomes something like zeitgeist or something. Yeah, like you don't know when some piece of music you've made, old or new, is going to be used in a car commercial or a funny movie or a thing. Like, because somebody who was making another piece of art needed a feeling and they got it from your song.

Mm-hmm. and they nailed it. And so when we watch it, we get the feeling. And then suddenly the whole culture agrees that this made us feel this way. Right. You have me thinking about, isn't it so interesting that in this moment,

like the where music might take off, so often the conversation is TikTok now? Yeah. And I think that's fascinating. Well, it's funny to think, imagine that we were having this conversation 10 years ago, even just five years ago. You know, let's just say 10 years ago.

And if somebody, some Nostradamus was like, imagine, if you will. There'll be this app that's like essentially just, I don't know what people don't do on TikTok, but they dance a lot, I think, you know. Yeah, it's visual radio slash digital snacks. Yeah, yeah. And so, but to be like, and that's actually where you might really take off where you're, you know, like just one blurb of like one snippet of a song can like take off to like millions and millions of listeners. Yeah, but it's this, it's this funny. There's infinite possibilities he's in like this one moment that this piece of your music matched perfectly with this, this person who was making this funny little piece of content or this funny little video

or this sad video or whatever. And it matched perfectly and then everyone agreed that they felt this way when they watched it. That's just funny how that works. It's still art in a weird way. Oh, it completely is. It's just being used in different forms. You had me thinking about a little bit like a quicksand because quicksand you know the band um they were a huge inspiration for me just because for the comeback album they wouldn't call it i mean i don't think you'd call it a comeback album they just they were dormant for a long time as far as albums go so they had like a couple of great albums in the 90s and uh and have put out a couple great albums in the last like 10 10 years now that was the band that made me think of that you made me think of when you're talking about just

like the inspiration that one can feel from when there's bands that have been at it for a while but uh put out something that just feels so fresh and good yeah it's really good i really love the new music yeah right congratulations thank you man um where do you live now uh i'm actually just down in larchmont oh so you live in l a yeah okay great mm-hmm do you like it oh yeah quite a how long you've been here we moved here uh my wife and i moved here in 2015 oh cool yeah where were you before that prior to that we were in chicago for a couple years oh cool yeah that's cool in atlanta before that and you grew up in Nebraska. Yeah.

Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I like Nebraska. It's cool. Omaha? Yeah. So tell me, like, I mean,

Charlie probably played everywhere at some point, right? Do you feel like, did you play Omaha sometimes? Yeah. You did? Okay. Yeah, we liked it.

Nice. I always had a good, it was always a good vibe there. A lot of cool music came out of there. Yeah. Obviously, you were a big part of that. It's cool. It's different.

It's cool. I was just there. But like in a good way, like when you go there, it's interesting because I just, I just was there like last year maybe with my son because he did a baseball thing there. And I hadn't been in a few years. And I liked it.

I really like it. It's cool. People are nice. I think there's a lot for the kind of ADD artist who needs to be continually captivated. I think L.A. is really good for that. New York's good for that. There's a lot of art and stuff going on. So Ola is great.

Omar is a charming looking city and it's friendly, as you said. There's a lot of space, which is something I miss a little bit living in L.A., you know. Yeah, yeah. I often just explain, say to people that Omaha is a great city, especially if you have a guide. If you have somebody who can kind of take you around. Because it's not just Omaha, but so many cities in this country, if you just kind of stay in your hotel room and get Applebee's or something like that, you know, like you're not really seeing it. You're not really. That's not the city.

It might come off as kind of a bummer, but it's like a. Is that, is the city a bummer or is your hotel and your applebee is kind of a bummer? Yeah, you're not experiencing the culture of the city. But like if you had a guide in Omaha, there's so many great spots and there's so much great music and arts. And yeah, I love it. When did you leave Omaha? I left, I kind of have been in and out, but the last time I left was 2010, so it's been quite a while now. I'm there a lot, though.

Okay. Because the band is all there. Oh, cool. So that's where we work. That's cool. Yeah. That's like me in Maryland. I go back to Maryland a lot.

Oh, right. So where I'm from. Yep. Of course. Have you been to Maryland? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's cool. It's a cool place.

Again, if you have a good guide, you can have, you can really experience, like, the place. Yeah, I've spent a little extra time in Baltimore and I've gotten a kick out of it. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, Baltimore is funny, man. It's a cool place. A lot of really nice people. So the record's out. Are you guys touring?

Yeah, doing East Coast dates in the fall. And we're doing West Coast states in February of 25. Cool. Yeah. How long has it been since you? guys have toured. I think we've been off for about a year. Oh, that's good. That's good. What would you say the thing, if you could put together a few moments in the band's life, and it doesn't just have to be pieces of music, but you guys have some great music. What would you say is the thing that you feel

the most proud of? Oh, hmm. Well, let's see. The thing that I be most proud of about cursive. Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is just what you want to say, the catalog, I guess. But yeah, Of course, more... That's valid too. Yeah. And that's important to me, too, because that was kind of part of starting cursive. We were in a band, we were doing a band called Slowdown, Virginia prior to cursive. And that was the band that I just couldn't get off, that we couldn't get off the ground,

you know, just like sending to labels over and over again and keep doing new demos and writing new stuff. And we did that for a few years. And then I was going off to college and kind of let the guy, let the band know that I was like, it was great. It was fun. It was a good try. You know, I don't even if I say it was a good try, because coming out of Omaha, I mean,

And yeah, why not daydream? You know, that's what you're saying earlier. It's like, what's great about art is that you can daydream and you knows where you can take it. But, you know, I felt like I put my time in. I was like, I have to go get like a real education and get a real job. But some of the guys just kind of persisted and we're like, I don't understand why we can't just keep playing.

It's not that it's, we're friends. It doesn't need to admit. It doesn't have to amount to anything. And I gave that some thought. This is just a little bit of a tangent. But that's good. I gave that a thought. I gave that some thought.

And I thought, and what I came up with was, okay, maybe we can try it again, but I'll actually give it a real, like the real college try. Yeah, yeah. So cursive, part of starting cursive was taking a real chance at meaning it. Like really, let's really mean it. And one of the important, like, kind of part of that kind of internal manifesto for me was to write music and to have a catalog that you're never ashamed of, that you're, that you're always proud of.

Right. And so always kind of, so that's kind of, just having that be an MO for your work is, is smart, I think. I'm gonna. And, like my music, my hair changes with me and has to be able to keep my rhythm.

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not are not the people who are they're not Yeah, I actually never thought about that. It sounds weird, but I've never thought about that. I think to take pride in the work to a level of I'm not putting it out unless I feel this way about it. And however long that takes, I'm going to take my time to make this what I want it to be.

There's a certain amount of integrity and pride it takes to do that. That also you have to combat everybody else's want for you to do it. fans, labels, whatever, whatever. Everyone's going to be like, it's time. You got to do that. You got to do that. And you're kind of probably navigating like, nope, not ready yet. That takes real.

So that's kind of the long-winded way of my saying that it is important to me to say that I'm proud of the catalog. Absolutely. Because that has been something that we've really cultivated and worked on. And it's of utmost important to us always has been. We just don't want to be embarrassed of anything. And it's not just about ego and humility or something. like that. It's just, it's just the importance of, like, the legacy of your catalog that's always been so important to us. But the other thing that, um, you make me think of is, I'm really proud of the,

and this is maybe cornyer, but I'm really proud of the relationships, you know? Curseve and I is this, as at this point, so deep into it. Well, it really started as Matt and I, and Matt McGinn is, um, like my lifelong friend. We are two weeks apart in age. I mean, maybe, maybe not so unlike the story of you and your brother. Yeah. Where we say that we consider each other brothers. Yeah, almost twins.

We're born on the same block. Wow. We're born, our parents, there's pictures of us together before we even knew, I mean, like, when we were like one and two years old.

Yeah. They just set us next to one another and just like, we're like, take care of each other. That's crazy. So we've been together our entire life. So that's really important to me. But then also Ted's been with us

since Domestica since 2000. Wow. Patrick Newberry has been with us since 2006. In Clint's Nazi was our original drummer as well and he kind of left for a while but he's back working with us again.

I don't know, there's a lot of family. There's a lot of mutual respect and appreciation. Yeah, oh my gosh. And you'll know all about this too. I mean, just we're in heaven. I'll speak for myself anyways. I'm in total heaven as far as

just the group of people that we work with. That's really nice. Oh, it's awesome. It's the biggest problem I feel like I have with working with cursive is that everyone's such comedians and that they all have to fucking make a joke all the time. You know? Yeah. So it's just like you're kind of trying to like work on something serious but like everybody has to chime in with their, you know, just, well, that's fine. That's funny. I think a lot of times no one may, no one really wants to let anyone feel the love for what this thing is,

what they've accomplished, the people that are there coming from nothing and getting to that place in your life where you're valuable to someone, where you've done something meaningful, where you've done something that's special. I think that in music a lot of times, especially, and I was going to ask you, because you guys are super, whether you want to say it or not, I can say it, right? Because I didn't get to have this experience. And I'm proud of what I've done. but you guys are a fucking cool band. All right, we'll be right back. We have a commercial.

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The coolest of the cool. You know what I mean? And whether you set out to be that or not, right? What you set out to be, what I hear is to make something that you can stand back and look at and be very proud of and go, I'm never ever going to regret that I put that there. Right, right. Which is it, it says integrity. It says there's a sense of self-respect and having that integrity and that self-respect is really important.

I wish I'd learned it earlier in life. I think it's really important. I hope my kids feel that way, right? Right. Don't do anything that you don't, or that you're not proud of. You know, don't have a price, right? Right. There's not a lot of room, though, in the coolest of the cool, I feel like to say, to stand back and go, I really like this. I'm really proud of this.

I feel really good about what I've done. And I'm really grateful I got to do it. And you know what? This is special. I feel like there's not a lot of room to cherish the and to celebrate. And because it can come off like you're cocky or you're this or that. But like actually, no, you're actually doing what is like you're having an experience that everyone needs to have. Everyone needs to do something that they're proud of.

And then say, look what I did. Check it out. And actually like kids, we make stuff and we like, hey, look at this thing. I feel like in cool, in really, really cool music, there isn't a lot of room. to be vulnerable. Well, it's a funny thought. And I do, and I know it, and I am, I do have a sense, there is a sense of pride that I have of being,

that we've maintained kind of a semblance of coolness, you know? Just like, I think that is, that integrity is involved with that. Yeah. But also, there's, there's more to it. It's just like, part of maintaining a coolness is, it's like when you, is that when you remain kind of more underground,

that also, that is cool. that it's like it can keep coolness intact you know yeah yeah but when i get to sit with people and then i listen to their music again it's so crazy it changes oh i'm sure yeah it's crazy it gets even better it's really interesting like there's something about getting a person to actually get an hour with someone where you have a real conversation because what i think what i try to do here is be as vulnerable as i can be and like and just and just share what i think as at the cost of of it could not come across the right way. I don't always deliver things the best way. I mean, I like to talk. I love to talk to people, but I haven't completely thought through all these,

and it's not the perfectly worded, you know, I don't put it all together sometimes. So there's a risk there, because you're putting yourself out there. And also, you could sit across from me and not be open to hear it. Or like, you know what I mean? Like certain, you know, you never know with people like who is down to receive or listen or whatever. But when you connect, even for a minute, when you go back to the music, it changes. I totally can see that. It's dope. I like that.

I love that idea too. That's all I want to know as a fan when I sit with someone is like, do they care about the music? And most of the time they do. What's the most mainstream thing you like? This is probably not. And it's not just music, like film, whatever. Like what's McDonald's? First I want to mention this one, and this isn't very mainstream.

dream, but it is a very successful band right now. And that's Fontaine's DC. Oh, I love them. Yeah. Anyway, that's an example for me where each record that comes out, I'm enjoying watching them explode, like blow up, and I'm happy. I think they actually sound, I guess maybe that's part of it. Fontaine's DC sounds to me like they should be the next U-2 or something like that. They're not U-2, but they're from Ireland. Yeah, I fully agree though. They're so big. And so they're an example of like, I think that's fun. I don't mind sharing them with, that's the thing it's sharing, right? That's especially when you come from these like punk rock scenes and stuff like that. Yeah. You don't really want to share your bands. And so when guitar blew up, people, there would,

there would have been people cursive as well, you know, that's just like, then you kind of, you have to lose, you have to shed some fans because then you're not their special band. It's not ours anymore. Yeah, it's not their special band anymore. And so then they're like, oh, and then they have to move on. Totally. Same with clothing brands, things like that. Yeah. But Fontaine's DC, I'm happy to share with the world because they're so good. They are so good. They are really good. They are good. It's funny that it's still, they're still very cool, though, in my opinion.

It is very cool. Yeah. What about any, like, pop culture? Is that, like, a TV show? Yeah, I think there's plenty. I'm sure there's plenty of stuff that I, well, yeah, I mean, the stuff that I really get into, like, that, like, Gwynedd, my spouse, Gwynedd and I, like, really dig in Project Runway, you know? Oh, yeah.

It's great. wife. It's a good competition show, you know? Yeah. And I don't even know if that's on anymore, because we're watching older ones, which is also a lot of fun, is that you watch, because then you get a watch, like, we're watching right now, like, from around 2010. Yeah. And so it can be fascinating, like, whoa, that's not, that dress, that skirt's not going to fly, but then the judges will love it. And you're like, oh, okay, it's 2010. It's 15 years ago. Yeah. There's a different, you know. Yeah, I get subjected to a lot of reality TV, uh, because my wife and my daughter, both they get into shows. I like it.

I always have my comments. You know? It's kooky. I also like game shows. I think I just like competition. I like competition. I don't watch a lot of sports, but I appreciate sports, and sometimes I can get into,

I'll get into October baseball. Yeah. You know, because that's pretty fun. Especially because, you know, I've been to had great luck because when we're in Chicago, Cubs are hot, and then we got to L.A. and Dodgers have been hot. So there's been, like, good teams.

There's been, like, teams to root for, you know? Yeah, I love baseball. But yeah, I love competition. So I don't know, we would watch, We could slink. We watched a lot of game shows. I went on Wheel of Fortune. You did?

I did. And I won. And you won? Yeah. I was on Chain Reaction and we won. Nice. You may be less familiar with Chain Reaction. Do you know, are you familiar with that game show or not?

It's been actually around forever, but it was around in the odds, early odds, then that came back over the last like decade, I guess. But it's a Game Show Network game, and it's very fun. I like games shows. And we won. I like game shows. We watch Family Feud sometimes. We haven't in a while, Mike.

My kids listen to this. They'll be like, they always correct me when I say we do something. And they're like, we haven't done that years. But we used to. Steve Harvey did a lot for bringing that show back. He's funny, man. But I went on Wheel of Fortune and crushed it. I love that.

Is it on YouTube or something? It's probably on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. I fucking grudson, dude. I'm not even going to lie. I didn't want to lose. I'll tell you that.

I cared very deeply about winning. Did you get a trip to Hawaii as well? No, I won for a charity. So it was like a good. It was like, but like it was real, I missed. So this is the part, I missed the billion dollar. I picked the thing at the end. The bonus spend, you can pick an envelope and whatever is in there. You win if you get it right. I got it wrong. Opened it up. It was a million dollars.

So that was a heartbreaker, but the rest of it was pretty flawless and got like 200 grand for this charity. It was great. Those endings are kind of tough. Yeah. Do you remember what it was? What the word? was, does it haunt you? It was like a day off. It was something like that. It was a phrase. It was like my day off. So R-S-T-L-N and E, you're not getting, you know, you got no vowels. I think they have some algorithmic thing that makes it tougher for those rounds. I mean, if you did R-S-T-L-N-E, you would have, they would just be like nothing would show up. Yeah. You'd be screwed. So, yeah, it was very hard. It was, it was a tough one. It was frustrating because it was so close. But would I go back? Yes, I would. I'll do it 10 more times. It was really fun. A lot of pressure. There's like a live studio audience.

When they go, you're like, you really have to stay calm and stay focused. There's a lot that could distract you. Gwynedd, my wife has been on Jeopardy. Oh, wow. We were on chain reaction together. She was on a show called Split Second, which is also a game show. We love game shows. Game shows are great. Love a game show. Back to Cursive. What would you say the biggest challenge of, of your career, something you could recognize as like the hardest part. What would you say it would be? What comes to mind as far as what would maybe

be the hardest aspect about cursive, the writing is all just a joy. And it's hard, it's difficult, it's tricky, you know? And you have to put a lot of time and effort into it, but that's what I want to be doing with my life. So that's all, it's ultimately a joy. Yeah, it's work you enjoy even when it's hard. Yeah, even some of the more grunt work stuff

of maybe just like editing or blah, blah, So I'm still like, I'd rather be doing this, you know. But for kind of what you're, kind of something we were touching on earlier in the conversation is what kind of pops into my head. And that is, and I did say that, you know, like success is relative. And it absolutely is. Success is totally relative. And with that comes relevance. It's like relevance is also totally relative to your success as well.

So for doing this for so long, having, working on a 10th record, but even for the ninth record and the eighth record and the seventh record, the sixth record, you know, we have like kind of a. bubble, you know, like in the mid-aughts or something like that, where that was probably like the height of what we were doing. And ever since then, everything's still been good. And it's still, you know, we're still, you know, it's still a profession. It's still a career. With each record, though, there is a little bit of a fight for, like, for some, for some form of relevance. You know, you just want to make sure that you're may holding on to maintaining some level of relevance. I feel that. And it's not as strong as, it's, as it was prior, you know.

I think there's a reason why a lot of bands will tend to break up, tend to break up because they don't, if they, if they, if that relevance or that level of success is no longer there, they see it as a failure. Yep. And to me, there's really no such thing as, well, this is not quite accurate. I was going to say there's no such thing as failure because that's not true. You can definitely just put up, there's some failure. And be like, it's kind of a bomb, you know.

But it's not a failure in the sense that as long as you're working on. on, you know, I've, I've never turned on a record and been like, like, if the, if the public turns on a record, I haven't been like, hmm, that they're right. That record sucks. Yeah, fuck that record. Like, instead, I just think, like, okay, that record didn't reach people. It was maybe misunderstood. Maybe I'm misunderstood. You know, like, I, but I never have turned on a record, you know, like, as far as my personal attitude toward it. But anyway, that's kind of neither here. Maybe that's a little bit tangential that that is, I think, one of the greater challenge. is that each record, what I've said for the longest time is like with the question that would, the different type of question, which is like, what do you want from this record? I feel like that's a kind of common question. And for the longest time, I've just continued to say, well, I hope that I hope that this record finds enough success to afford me to do another record. To just, I just want to kind of keep, I want to keep just kind of, you know, lily patting to the next one. And that can, that's, that was the case back when I was, you know, back 25.

years ago, and it's still the case now. But with that does come certain, you know, fears and challenges. Yeah. Like it is, you never really know. It's a question mark, really. Well, to admit it is to, is to admit that we care. We have to. We have to admit that we care. Otherwise, we're lying. If we're not doing this, if we're just going, yeah, but I don't fucking care. Yeah, you do. Because you wouldn't have gone in there and spent those hours. Yeah. You know, and to say I care is important. You actually care, I ton. And I actually think people want us to care. Mm-hmm.

Because they care. And I also think that I feel the same way. I like a record that didn't do well or whatever, whatever. I never turned on it because, and then in my older age, I kind of feel like where I'm at a place now where there is some kind of peace in knowing that like, you know what? Didn't do what I wanted it to do. But I'm going to not judge it yet.

Maybe somewhere down the road, this thing. has a life of its own. I got to let that little tree grow. Yeah, great attitude. Maybe we'll discover what it means. Maybe we needed to do that record to get to this record artistically or whatever. Because we just made a record and we're going to put it out next year. And I feel if I'm being honest, I want it to succeed.

I don't know what that means. I just know that I wanted to succeed. Yeah. Of what success is. I don't know what it means, but it's something like relevance, like to someone. and to feel that someone cares about it. That's the connection I think we want as artists is we made something. And then we're kind of like, here you go, guys.

And then you're kind of waiting. You know, like, do they like it? But if I'm being honest, it's like, now do they care? Does someone hear this and get something from it? Or do they care? To me now, what I feel like success is is, are we still going forward? If we are, then we're, that's all that matters. If we're still going forward, it means we did something right, and we still feel there's a point.

And where people give up is, what's the point? Absolutely. What's the point? Somewhere along the line, they said, what's the point? And then they should, and then if they can. Yeah. And find something that can nurture them more. That feels like there's a point.

Yeah. In life, we need a point. Yeah. And whenever we get to a place where we go, what's the point? We have to stop and go, is that just how I feel? because I feel like no one cares? Or is there really no point to this? Like, have we reached our fully, like,

are we at the end of this thing that we were doing? And there's no point to it anymore. That's a real thing for some people. And that's okay. I'm not even mad at that. Yeah. But if it's just because you didn't get a certain result, I learned somewhere recently in the last few years about results,

don't judge them and don't try to control them. We can try to affect them our best. You should. You should try to affect them. Do your best. Give your best effort. But then the results start coming. Because with records, the results are going to be the rest of its life. And you never know where that matters. It literally could be 20 years from now, dude. And that's okay. Like you have to be open to the possibility that like this thing has its own life and I got to let it. Like I got to detach myself from some need to feel something about that. this result that I have in my mind is crystallized as that's what success for this means. When I started letting go of all that, I actually was free to make records again, I think. Nice. Which this record was a great, great, like very healing experience to like go through a process with my brother and get into it and like have fun.

That's great. Yeah. I mean, that's excellent. That's what you need to be doing or what's what you hope to be doing, you know? Yeah, full circle. So this will be a good Charlotte record coming out next year. Yeah, next year. That's exciting. That's awesome. Record number eight. So what you'll, and this is just one person's

opinion, but I think what you should, what you and the crew should, how you should approach it is, first, has it brought you in the band? Has it brought the band pleasure? Like, are you proud of it? Yeah. You know, that's like, that's, to me, that's always, that kind of tends to be the first, like, check, you know, like box to check. Like, are we happy with it? Are we proud of it? Because that's a huge, To me, that's such a huge. And I know that's, that's a, it's a personal, it's personal success. And it's super important. And it's quality of life, really.

It's like, did this make life feel better? Yeah. And I don't, but I don't want to lean into it too hard because then you kind of end with the problem. I consider kind of the problematic area of when artists are kind of like, oh, I don't really care what the public thinks. I just do it for me. It's just like, if that's really how you felt, then why am I hearing it right now?

Yeah. That's really how you felt. And just give it to your friends. Why did it even leave the closet? Why didn't even leave your desk? Yeah. So it's like, I don't really believe that. I'm with you on that.

But so you do, so you want to make, so you want to, you want to make your, you're the band proud and the crew, the crew proud, you know, the people you work with. And then next, I think the next box is that you're really hoping that like tried and true good Charlotte fan base that's like kind of taken care of you for so many years. Yeah. Oh, cool, you really hope that they're going to like it. Yeah, that is a deep. It's like you really hope that you really hope that you bring something that makes them proud because

You want them to be proud of you. You want them to be proud of this band that they've been loving for so long. And then, so you get that, hopefully you check that box. And then pass that, that's where you get to have the whole fun gamble that we've been talking about with being, you know, with the arts. Then you get to have the fun gamble of like,

in the day, fun daydreams of like, and I don't know, who knows? Maybe it'll cross over. Maybe the spotlight will find us again, you know? Like whatever. Just any of those like fun little thoughts that I always go through in my head as well. So all the upside. Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, but I like to stake around. I like to stay grounded, but it's fun as hell to keep the daydream alive too of just like, but you never know. And we don't. We don't know. We don't know what's going to happen with any upcoming record. Yeah. That's all the icing.

The possibility. It's cool. Are there any bands over the years that you've found like we've always been friends with those guys? Yeah. We have a few. The first band that comes to mind is Thursday. Oh, yeah. That's a band that I met, we met 20 plus years ago when we first went out on tour with them

and just, you know, got along with them. They're great. Yeah. Made some good, like, lifelong friendships. But why it's on my, why that's at the forefront of my mind is because we've started touring with them again in the last couple of years. And we've been doing a lot of touring with them. And they've even been taking me out for where I just kind of play solo.

Cool. support. So then I just jump on the bus with them and I've really, they've been more and more just feeling like I'm a member of that band. Yeah. And it's, that's great. That's cool. It's great to have to make those kinds of friendships, you know. Yeah, they were always really nice. Yeah. I always found them to be very nice. Yeah. Yeah. I was always struck by how nice they were. We never got really close, but we knew each other, you know? And I was always struck at how, like, they were genuinely like nice. I thought that was really cool. Yeah. Yeah, good groups.

It's a cool band. There's a good group. is a cool band. How have the show's been? They've been good over the years, the last few years. Yeah, yeah. I mean, everything, yeah, really just, I'd be, I'd be a real sap to complain, you know? Yeah. It's just nice to have people out and nice to be able to, I don't know, to have that energy on stage and, you know. Yeah, it is nice. So you directed a movie. I thought that was cool. Yeah, yeah. Just finishing it up right now. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's not out yet? No, we're actually, um, we're going to premiere at Beyond Fest, which the announcement comes out tomorrow. Are you excited?

Oh, God, yeah. A horror movie? Yeah, it's like a thriller, horror. That's cool. Yeah. Horror movies are cool, especially like indie horror movies. That's a really fun genre. My wife is obsessed with horror movies.

Like, she watches, it's so weird. She watches them sometimes, like, it's like weirdly, like, sometimes she unwinds, like, at the end of the night by watching, like, horror movies. And it's so weird because she's actually quite a bit. It's like, I'd say it's like 25% of what she chooses to watch when she's in a certain mood to, like, unwind his horror movies. So I'm up on a lot of horror movies because she's down to watch anyone. She wants to try them all. Yeah.

And there's a real lane for indie horror. Like, there's a real fan base. Mm-hmm. It's pretty cool. I mean, absolutely. I mean, the industry is just an strange place right now. But horror continues to thrive, which is, I think, just a real relief. This has been the 2024 anyway.

It's just been a crazy, a wild year as far as, there's been. been a horror movie practically every, like in theaters, practically every weekend, it seems like. Crazy. It's been fun. Yeah. And you love horror? I do. Yeah.

I mean, I just love film. Yeah. I love film. But thankfully, uh, thankfully I, horror is part of what I love about it. And I've, so I've written a lot of scripts amongst them are horror and thrillers. But I did do, I, this is a second feature that I've done. I did one that I came out in 2017 that you really wouldn't know about because I had such, the point of me bringing it up is that I had such a hard time selling it and finding distribution

for it. And did it come out? It came out for a little while. What was it called? It's called no resolution. And this is the problem ultimately because I was making something very small, very low budget. And it was just a quiet drama. It was a drama. I mean, it's tense. It was a tense drama, but it's still how do you, the genre has to be genre. It just, the genre has to be drama. And so any distributor I talked to, they're just like, this is a fine film, but I don't, I can't, I didn't have any, like, known actors in it. It was great actors, but it was Chicago Theater as well as we're living in Chicago. Cool. So it was just a really, it's just a tough sell.

It's not that, it wasn't that the movie was clunky or anything. It was just a tough sell. Yeah, but, you know, there's something about the work that if you didn't do that, you wouldn't have gotten to this one. Oh, absolutely. And if you didn't do this one, you know, there's likely like something calling you to do these movies. And that's like, to me, the most important part is a feeling of like I need to go do this and I'm going to go through all these obstacles and get on the other side of it and finish it. And you don't know where that movie is going to end up living like the first movie, right? But the new movie likely was probably still really challenging to do.

But like you'd figured out a bunch of stuff on that one. you brought it to this one. And I could see a path unfolding that's pretty, that's, that's pretty exciting. Yeah. I mean, that's in it's, it's, now it's, now it's akin to records where it's like each movie I make, I just hope it can afford me the next one. Yeah, exactly. That's really cool.

That's exciting. Do you have any, I mean, are there dream movies you want to make? Do you have like a, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have a, yeah, I have a bunch of scripts collecting dust on the proverbial shelf, you know. That's cool. Yeah. That's really cool. And do you direct all the videos for your band? Not all of them. No. Okay. We actually just, Cursev did five videos for this album, and it was kind of part of a project.

Oh, cool. That's actually part of a horror project. So we found genre directors, like these different horror directors to make videos. And I went ahead and made one as well, because I was like, you know, because it's fun. And I was the one picking the directors, so why not pick myself for one of them, you know? Yeah, why not? Yeah. That's cool. Did you see Terrorizer too? You mean Terrifier? Terrifier? Is it Terrifier or Terrorizer? Well, unless you're talking about a different movie, but you're talking about Art the Clown?

Yeah. Yeah, it's Terrifier. It's really funny. Yeah, the movies, those things are grotesque, man. Yeah, they're pretty crazy. But yeah, Art the Clown's pretty... They remind me of the horror nights type, like, things you go and just walking through rooms and it's terrible scenes.

It's like pretty cool. I thought it was cool. I mean, I'm not a huge horror guy at all. I don't. My wife, my son, they have a bond over it. They watch them together. And I'll, I'll watch. And they'll, they literally have watched everything. They watch any horror movie that comes up. They're like, oh, there's a new horror movie on, on the Netflix or Apple or whatever. And they watch it. It's really

weird. They're really into it. And they go to horror nights. They go to horror nights. It sounds like my, my family. That's like their hobby. Like that's one of their like, their real joys in life. I'm like, yeah, me and my daughter are the same though, or we're like, no way. You guys go to horror nights. We'll sit this one out. But they just, like, they love it. So I'm sure. And it's like all the, it's, it's the entire umbrella, thriller, horror.

There's such a spectrum of like these movies. So it can be like a super campy one or it can be like a really scary, dramatic thriller. They'll watch it all. I think that's kind of some of the fun about being a horror fan is that you recognize, is that you are kind of taking the good with the bad. Yeah. because the bad, quote unquote, bad is some of the stuff you really love as well.

Like, it really can be horror movie is some of your favorite stuff. It can be some of your favorite stuff. Yeah. And they go to all the classics. They go back to the classics in between. If there's not something new, they'll watch a, they'll continually watch these same horror movies they've watched a million times. And they're just like, it's pretty cool.

Yeah. That's cool, man. Well, I appreciate you coming. Man, nice conversation. Really means a lot. Yeah, I just want to make sure that we cover the, the music. because I think you guys have done an incredible job. Oh, thanks.

And, uh, was a nice music conversation too. Yeah. And I think it's important. Like, it's not often we get to talk about music these days in a way that is, I don't know, it's like all bite size, click through,

promote, promote, promote, which is important. I want to be able to promote music with people in a way that still feels like we care about what we're talking about. And because there's so many people out there that care about what you're doing. and it's important that that idea is kept alive because bands are important. Yeah. And live music is important.

It's never going to go away. I don't think it's ever going to die. But I think that we get into these times in like popular culture where it may not be appreciated in some moments, but it will be appreciated because it's nutrition. Yeah. At the end of the day, like you need it. And I think to go and experience live music is important. have you all been playing wives still?

We did two shows last year, which was the first shows in like six or seven years. And then next year, next year we're going to do some proper, like a real tour. Wild. So we'll see what do that means, like 30 shows.

Excited and like a little nervous or probably is mostly excited. I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to like get ready for it. The only other thing I want to say, have you noticed how many cursive tattoos there are out there in the world?

there are quite a few you're one of the bands i would say you're like one of those tattoo bands everybody that loves cursive it's like they get a tattoo i was talking to my brother about it it was like there's always like you see you'll run into someone you're like cursive tattoo it's a little club it is that's pretty cool i have pretty yeah i it's it's amongst the highest respect i feel like you know like that's like what an i don't know that like level of like feeling honored by somebody decided to do that. It's like, whoa, that's amazing. Thank you. It's dope. Yeah. Paul has one. Does he? Yeah. Nice one, Paul. Oh, yeah. I think he has one. I got to remember. I actually saw one the other day. I forget where I was at. So this girl had a cursive tattoo was like, that's cool.

It's pretty cool, man. They're kind of all over the place. It is fun. Sometimes I get just to see them out in the wild, like, like a barista or something. And sometimes I don't, sometimes I won't mention something. Sometimes I'll always be like, hey. A lot of baristas. I have cursive tattoos. Thanks for letting me talk your ear off. Oh, man. Like, twice.

Dude, thanks for let me ramble. I love to ramble. Hey, I do too. Dude, such a pleasure. Congrats on the record. Thanks a lot. Thanks, too. Thanks for having me.

All right. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow, like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcast, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support, and we'll see you next time.