Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Tori Kelly

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is joined by Tori Kelly. After posting videos on YouTube throughout her teens, Kelly made a proper entrance on the ninth season of American Idol in 2010. Since then, she’s released five studio albums featuring her powerhouse vocals and bagged two Grammys. Her latest,TORI., acts as a successor to her 2023 EP of the same name and taps into 2000s R&B. Additionally, Kelly will head out on her Purple Skies tour this week, and you can see all the dates here. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'm talking to singer-songwriter and Grammy-winning recording artist, Tori Kelly. Her new album, Tori, is out now, and her tour starts on April 12th. Let's go. Do you start with where you're at or where you started? Oh, gosh, yeah, those are two very different things.

I guess where where I'm at is probably a cool place to start. Because I feel like I'm in a really good place, which is fun. I feel like, so I have an album coming out. Called Tori. It is called Tori, all caps with a period. Period is important statement. And I actually feel like that kind of symbolizes where I'm at, which is just kind of taking ownership of my artistry

and having a lot more fun. Not that I didn't have fun before, but I think I was a little more serious in my music. And I think I'll always have that, but I'm in a phase now where it's like, okay, I've kind of shown all these sides, but there's still a lot of sides that I haven't shown, actually. The performer side of me, the just even like the overall aesthetic,

I didn't usually pay attention to, like visuals and stuff. I was kind of just like, I'm a singer and I'm just about the music and everything else you guys can figure out. And I think with this chapter stepping into my 30s now, having kind of done it for a while, now I'm like, wait, I can just have fun now. Yeah. You think that you limited yourself there because I feel like experience in this business, we don't realize how much. multi-talented and multifaceted we are. I feel like your age is when I actually started thinking that way too. Like right when I was like turned 30.

Yeah. 30-31 I started going like, wait a minute. I actually know how to do that. Yeah. And I always wonder why I limited myself in my 20s. Like I confined myself to certain boxes because I just went, I don't really do that. And then you kind of go, why did I feel, why did I limit myself that way?

I don't really know why. Yeah, that is interesting because I think for me at least, it felt like I had been grinding all my life as a kid, just kind of trying to make it doing my thing. And then there was a video that went viral. It was a cover that I did with a friend of mine who was so, like it's really talented beatboxer. And it was me playing guitar,

her beatboxing to Frank Ocean cover called Thinking About. you and that was like my first taste of like a viral moment. I was like what is going on? And so but up until that point I was already like in and out of the industry. It was signed when I was 12. So that was just like a fun thing. I was like oh what's this YouTube thing? Let me start you know messing around with it. So when that blew up also I had just dyed my hair blonde when that blew up. Brown is my natural hair color. So I'm just like I'm like 19. I'm having fun with my hair whatever. I just picked up guitar. And so people sort of, this is just my take on it. I think what happened is people saw that image and was like, okay, girl with her guitar, blonde hair, wow. And that was

kind of, I think that was a lot of people's first look at me and first time they maybe heard me. And so without me realizing, I think I subconsciously was just like, oh, I need to, I like I shouldn't change my hair then I should stay this or oh people like singing with the guitar okay cool and I and that is very much me like it wasn't like I was playing a character or anything but it I just sort of ran with it because it was working and so then fast forward all these years later when I'm like oh wait like I like to dance too or I like to you know do this style of music too and I just sort of forgot about it and then I dye my hair back to my natural color and people are like whoa, what's happening?

Like, they think that's, you know, this big change. But, and I didn't think that would happen. But then now it makes sense. I'm like, oh, it's because you guys thought you knew who I was. And that is definitely a big part of who I am. But now I'm really excited to show all these different sides that have always been there. But I just haven't had really the type of music to kind of let it out. What I take away from it is this moment of your talent captured.

in this organic place, which I always think is the best way. Yeah. Is this real moment where you are doing something you love with someone you like, expressing yourself as an artist, hear a song and go, oh, I'd love to sing that my way. You do it your way. Yeah. You put your artistic spin on it. And people see something that is otherwise kind of amazing.

It looks like a magic trick when someone can pick up the guitar and sing a song and it sounds good. That's like a magic trick to most people. most people can't do it. It was just the fact. Why people love that moment is that. Yeah. But the world we live in says, oh, it's your hair and your clothes and the way you guys did this.

And they try to work out why it feels magical. Yeah. It doesn't mean the hair doesn't matter or what you're wearing doesn't matter. It does because it's a part of your expression. But like, I feel like a lot of times in music, people try to recapture the thing we did when we were just doing it. Yeah. And you're like, no, no, I'm on to this now.

I want to do this. Right, right. And what we have to learn as artists that I didn't get, again, like, till I was probably 30 was, oh, the part about me that is special is me being myself doing what I love and expressing myself. 100%. And everybody else is trying to work out the kits. They're trying to work out the thing. Yeah.

And you're like, no, no, it's, yeah, look, we look like that. Yeah. But we were just expressing ourselves. Right. We can't redo that at that time. And that's where I think you start getting pulled off the path slowly. You know, some artists get pulled way off. Everybody has their version of that, though,

where they were like trying to recapture a magic that you can only get by expressing yourself and being yourself and like having the joy of the thing you do. Right. Right. Right. This God-given talent that you can't explain why you have it, but you feel the, you feel compelled to sing and to express yourself. Yeah. And that's like the good part of it that I think we all relate to when we see it happening. But we then try to work it out. Why was that a success? Totally.

The whole industry tries to figure that out. Yeah. Yeah. And then they start telling you what you should do. And you're like, no, I think I should just lean into how I feel. Right. And then you start to do that more and more. And that's what I learned in my 30s was like leaning into how I feel and going like, I don't know. I think something's there. I'm going to just explore it. I'm going to figure it out. And then you keep leaning in and then you start down this path of like what I really think is total joy. The challenges are real, but you feel inspired to work and figure it out. Yeah. Versus how do we have another hit. Oh, gosh. I guess we have to dress this way and do this.

And then maybe we'll get that guy to do this. And then you start trying to formulate hits. My heart rate is going up here. You talk about this. You know? Yeah, totally. It's like, it's so, it's exhausting. And any, I think anyone can fall into that though, too. When something works, it's like, okay, like, how do we get that again?

And it's, yeah, it's just so, it's so tough. Because no one said, hey, kid, you're fucking special. Just block all the bullshit out and just do what you want. And I think you'll do it again. And it might be in a different way or it might be, but like, that's to me, like, art versus the commerce yeah commerce has to be there for our jobs because this is the job but i think we put the art first and then once we get that right and we feel good about it then we figure out how we market it how we take it out to the world yeah and that that can be fun too

actually yeah there's got to be room for it to be different though every time i think totally yeah because then it's like if you do the same thing over and over it's not it's not fun anymore Yeah. But when you're young, you also feel all this pressure to try and make everyone happy. Yeah. They must be experts because they worked with so-and-so and so-and-so. And who am I? Yeah. You know, like that's how you feel when you're 19. Totally. Like, what do I know? Yeah. I'm not that special. I think I'm special enough

to sing and do the YouTube video. Yeah. And then have millions, 100 million people watch it and go, that's good. Yeah. But maybe I'm not special enough. That part to me is where artists get off because now you're special. Now you just got to keep doubling down on like how you feel and what you want to say and let it feel natural. I think. Yeah, I think just thinking of how the way my career is kind of panned out, the thing I am grateful for is that it does feel like I, I never was like this overnight success story, which looking back, I'm really grateful for that. It's like I had to put in the work. It was a very, it's, it's, it's. still feels kind of like this slow grind, like this, you know, I have this like core fan base

that's incredible that have just continued to rock with me. So it, I'm really grateful that it wasn't this like, you know, one huge, ginormous hit. And then I'm just like on this roller coaster and, you know, don't know what to do and then have to figure out what to do after. It's like, that is what I'm grateful for. When I look back, I'm like, okay. And in a lot of ways, this has just kind of been like baby steps and and yeah brick at a time yeah yeah which is cool and i'm i'm just like grateful that i still get to do it you know if you think about like tory kelly you don't think like one song i think you think more of like a i think more musically i think big voice musically talented uh real musician you know things like that versus like oh that song remember that song yeah yeah

Thank you, though. Yeah. It's like you spend, yeah, you spend all this time trying to figure out what that hit is for you. And, you know, and I, and who knows? It's like, I think that would be awesome if that does happen. Like, that would be amazing, obviously. And I even think with this new music, there was a sense of kind of like surrendering almost to whatever that hit thing is because I think for a lot of my career, I was like,

I don't want to do what everyone else is doing. want to just like, you know, be in a corner and like do my own thing. And I didn't want to chase that sound. And I think there's this sense of security that has come over me. Like I said, stepping into my 30s, I think there was basically what I told my executive producer who was John Bellion. I don't know if you guys have met. He's incredible. Incredible. So really well known as like a songwriter, but also incredible artists. And what a lot of people don't know is he's an amazing producer as well. So he did my whole album.

And I literally walked into the studio and was just like, I want big songs that I can belt out in the car. And I had never said that before. I think in the past I would have been like, I want to make sure like I relate to every single lyric, which I do still in this album. But I think the priority used to be, you know, just like really deep. and a little left field sonically and just like more, I don't even know, explain what my sound even was,

but maybe more on the singer-songwriter side of things, like soulful. Yeah, but you can out-sing so many of those singer-songwriters. And I love all, I love singer, I love singer-songwriter. Same, same. I love the genre of like singer-songwriter. There's something about the craft of the song, and it's usually less about the vocal,

the vocal's more honest. and there's something super kind of authentic and imperfect about it with a lot of great singer-songwriters. But the songwriting is like unique and special. And you can out-sing a lot of people. You have a real. Thank you. You have one of those voices. And you should flex that.

Yeah. I like flexing. It's fun. I love singing. I would just flex it. But I'd be at karaoke once a week flexing my voice. That's the thing though. When I do karaoke, I'm like not even singing real.

I'm just doing like impressions. the whole time. I'm being so silly. But yeah, that's the thing, though, is I think, like you said, I've always kind of been known as this voice. But genre-wise, I've kind of been all over the place, which has been, I used to think was a bad thing. I was like, oh, I got to stick with one thing. I got to, you know, make sure I have a brand and let people put me in whatever box makes sense. And so I really struggled that starting out. And now I'm like, That's actually really awesome that I've been able to have a career where you, you know, I've been able to do all these amazing genres and really pour myself into them. And I know I keep tying it back to now, but it really does feel like this album is like a full circle, kind of everything I love.

This is me in an album. This is where I'm at right now. And also, like, I talked with John about this is like, okay, if people know me as a singer, but you don't, you know, you can't really pinpoint a song. necessarily. Let's really dive into like what is my sound. Like let's really play and explore and have fun. And we almost made these like little, it was almost like I was being characters on different songs, but they were all different sides of me that were coming out. Sometimes I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to show that side. But I was like, you know what? Yeah, I'm going to show that side because that's real and I haven't showed that yet. And I'm probably just scared that people,

it's going to clash with people's perception of me. Exactly. So it was this, empowering process to let all those things out and I'm really proud of it. I'm excited about it. I'm, I'm excited about it. I'm an amena. And, it's a lot of Sebastian Professional, for so Potion Nine of Sebastian Professional has all what my

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at slash I think one thing that happens as we grow in age and experience

as we integrate things and so I think like if the old bar was I'm worried

about the lyrics I want to make sure everyone is perfect or the song writing is this

that was the ceiling for you of what you wanted to do that album is now the floor that's the that's the that's base level like i'm doing that i already have that like you don't have to think about the lyrics anymore because you're already going to think

about the lyrics yeah you don't have to think about thinking about them yeah because you've already integrated that by that's why artist development is so important with every record because what you gain on the last record it's more than just the record it's more than just the success of the record if you're really an artist which you are it's the integration of the ability to paint with more colors than you had. Yeah. More mediums than you had, right? Totally.

Yeah, I love that. So like the old record was the old ceiling because you hadn't gotten there yet. And that's the natural journey. You can't force the journey. Right. It doesn't matter what anyone says, in order for you to make the Tory record, you got to make the Tory record. No one else can make it for you.

So you had to live all the life up to that record. Yeah, yeah. And so everything you did, whether you felt like it was a win, or a loss or a this or that mistake or that, we've all had those where you're like, I don't know if I do that again, but what can I change? I got to sit with that and actually stop criticizing myself and just like look at it and try to analyze or feel into what was I trying to do. Yeah.

And what did I accomplish and what did I gain and what did I learn? And then all of that integrates anyways into your art as you continue to grow. Do you like touring? I do like touring. I think that like where the audience lives is where we put our art in the world and then the audience decides. Right. But where we get to actually feel it is when we play live, when we're living in it.

It's more tangible for us. Because like I don't get to see, you know, I see comments, but I don't get to see you actually reacting. The faces. To the song. Yeah. And hear those stories like at the meet and greets. And it's like, it's overwhelming sometimes.

wait, this is crazy. Even if it's like a, I just did a tour that was, you know, like smaller venues. Like we wanted to do a more intimate thing. Yeah. And so like, you know, venues that I was playing like super early in my career. So it was this cool full circle moment. And it doesn't even matter how many people are there. It's like a room full of, I think like some of the venues are like a couple hundred people.

And I'm just like in some ways that's more powerful in a way because you really get to. It's really intimate. See them, you know? And it can be really, you could feel super vulnerable up there. Yeah. You really see all the eyeballs. Whereas like an arena, it's like there's a little bit, I mean, I haven't done like a full arena tour, but I've played shows in arenas.

And there's a little bit of a disconnect sometimes. Do you feel that way? I don't know. Like when you compare. Can't see anyone. The lights are on your face. You can't really see the crowd. You can kind of see the seats.

Yeah. But my favorite venues are like a good like three to five thousand flat. Yeah. Everyone's jumping or move in or whatever. Yeah. But where you can see everyone. And then the smaller show is like a Trubodore show is a great show. Yeah.

The sound is weirdly really good there. Yeah, yeah. And you can hear everyone. Like you can hear them talk. I love the Roxy actually. Yeah. It has a special place in my heart. It was one of my.

It was one of my first, like, real shows. I played, my first show officially was a place called Room 5, which I don't know, actually, if it even exists anymore. I've never been there. It's 50 people, like, tiny. And I played there a few times. Where's that? In L.A. Somewhere in Hollywood, yeah.

And it is a super small, like the upstairs of a restaurant kind of thing. And I, like, packed it out, like, 50-plus people. and I played there a few times. This was right as the Thinking About You cover was blowing up. So then after I did those shows, I was like, well, I guess I need to put out an EP or something because I don't want to, you know, I don't want the hype to just be this cover. I want to let people know I have music. And so I threw out the EP.

And then from there, that allowed me to do like a little tour in the U.S. But the Roxy was, I think when did I feel? play the Roxy. The Roxy might have been on that tour or it might have also been like a special one-off just in that time and it just, it was just special because there were, you know, all these like executives and it was kind of this like buzzy moment. It just felt like a pivotal moment. It felt like a big deal. Yeah. And I love how you can just see. I love the layout of it because for, I like seeing shows there too because you really can see everything, especially in that little VIP area. but I like as you know the one on stage I like how you're kind of in the corner and then you can

just see like literally everybody very classic kind of rock and roll yeah it's cool and I was able to play it again this last year when we did that like smaller tour and so it was just like trippy being there again I think it would I think it would have been like 10 years later getting to play it yeah and just like thinking of how how far I've come since then how many years has been since what Since like you would say you really started. Oh gosh. 19?

You were 19? So like what, 12 years, 11, 12 years? Yeah. But really when you started, you were 12, you said, you got signed? Yeah, that's the thing. And that counts. Yeah. That's crazy.

Yes. I feel like I really got my start. Yeah, if you count like being just in the industry, being signed. Yeah, I was 12. It's technically 11. So it's 20 years. Yeah. Yeah.

I was 11. That's a lifetime in our business. It's so weird. 20 years is a lifetime. I feel old and young at the same time, which is kind of a cool place to be. Like I really feel like I have so much more to show and to give of myself and my talents and everything. And then at the same time, I look back and like, oh, I've learned quite a bit just by nature of being around and just observing. Yeah, well, think about it.

You know how everything works. Not everything, but I'm trying. If somebody came and they told you this is how it's going to work, you would actually, you'd have real insight into like going, no, I think we got to change that and move that. You know too much to not have an opinion on. Right. I think I'm more, I think I know what questions to ask now. Right.

Because I would never claim to like know everything, but I'm, I used to not even want to ask questions because I don't want to look silly. Of course I should know this. Me too. But now I'm like, no, I should be asking about that. That seems off. Let me just ask and see what the answer is. Yeah.

When I get the opportunity to talk to younger artists that are just like starting their careers, I always try to tell them or encourage them to ask as many questions as possible to the people that they're paying. Yeah. You know, like you're talking to your lawyer. ask him a million questions so that once you learn you don't have to learn it again. Yeah. Once you have it, you don't have to get it again. And I was the same as you for the first phase of my career, probably like until the third

or fourth record maybe, crazy. I wouldn't ask anything because I didn't want to bother anyone. I didn't want to seem stupid. I don't want to seem like a diva or anything. You didn't want to be a problem. Yeah. And I wish I would have. Yeah.

God, I wish I would have. I wish I would have known about a licensing deal versus. Why didn't I know about that? Yeah. And you have a right to know that. Of course you do. Like this is your life. This is your career.

Intellectual property. Right. And I think it's telling too. Like I'm grateful for, you know, certain people on my team because I can ask those questions. A lot of them I've had for, you know, years and years. And it's, it's cool because they, you know, the fact that they, yeah, the fact that they're like, oh, yeah, like, you should be asking this, you know, and they would just kind of walk me through it. Like, I was like, okay, that's, yeah, you're.

You're a keeper. That's good. Yeah. The great ones in our business love to explain. Yeah. Yeah. They love it because they love what they do. Yeah.

You know, find a lawyer that loves to explain to you what something means. Totally. Because that's a good, that is a good person to have. Yeah. Because you should know what it means. You should not understand. And I didn't for so long. And it's not, no one else is, I'm not blaming anyone else.

I personally should have and I didn't. Yeah. And now I try to share that. And I'm like, listen. ask questions and think about things in a long-term perspective. Think about how you'll feel in 10 years with this decision. Don't treat yourself like this is a lottery you just hit and you'll take whatever you can get because it's not real. And it likely won't last.

And I think that's where when I first came in, I was like, well, I didn't earn this. I didn't. And I've really felt that way. I was like, well, this must, they picked me. I don't want to lose it. And you're like, no, like you pick each other. Yeah. All relationships.

You pick each other. You have to pick each other. It's like 50-50. You got to like both want to be there. Right. But it's good to talk about because a lot of people listening, I find with this show, people are trying to figure out how to go forward in life and be. be successful, be happy, be healthier, you know, work it out.

How do you balance at all? Yeah. And how do I improve? Yeah. Because I think that the idea of like getting to the top of the mountain is a nice idea, but like we have to make the whole climb. And so we have to keep taking steps. And sometimes we get setbacks or whatever.

But the people who succeed are the ones who keep going forward. And you're a proof of that. there's certainly a bunch of moments in your career that you could have said, I'm too scared, or this is too hard, or it's just too much work. Because everyone kind of sees the highlight real. Yeah. But all the days in between are really hard work. It's like showing up.

Totally. That's a great metaphor for everyone's life. Like life in general, if you're not a singer, then you're just someone trying to figure out how to start your own business or how to stay married or how to be a parent for the first time or how to be healthier. It's the same thing. You just have to keep getting up, trying, leaning into the right feelings and the right ideas

and moving away from the bad ones. Yeah. And treating yourself with some regard. Yeah. Like protecting yourself, treating yourself with respect. It can feel sometimes like life isn't working out for you, but you do have to kind of like push forward towards the good. Yeah, I agree.

I think people do. I mean, myself included, I think I look to music as, yeah, just a source of inspiration. One of my really good friends, his name is Anthony Evans, and he's in gospel music, Christian gospel music, which is like I did a gospel project myself. I know you love gospel music. I love gospel. I like gospel music too. Yeah?

I grew up on like my mom listened to like Christian music my whole life. Oh my gosh, I didn't know that. It's amazing. I know it very well. What were some of the artists you listened to, do you remember? Back from when I was a kid. Obviously, Kirk Franklin, the Wynans. And then there was like more stuff she'd tried to get us into that we weren't really.

We were really into it. I like them, though. So I'm not dissing these artists because I certainly have a great respect for what they do. But like, you know, the newsboys and Stryker and Hillsong era. Of course. Like when the big mega worship groups got big, this is kind of like back in the 90s. 90s. Totally.

So it was a different time. But we used to, my mom would always play the music in the house. I was down with it because I grew up going to church and like hearing worship music. And I think it lays deep in my musical roots. I think it's really in. I certainly rebelled against it. And when I was younger and then had my own journey back to what I think we're all making some version of worship music somehow. Like I really do think that.

Just to finish that thought of my really good friend Anthony Evans. Yeah, I want to hear about it. Sorry. I cut you way off. No, you didn't. It goes into kind of what we're talking about of just like I literally woke up today and I was just kind of feeling off. It was just like one of those days. I was like kind of like.

Me too, by the way. Really? Weird. Oh. We were like sinking or something. Yeah. I just woke up and I was kind of feeling overwhelmed with just all the things I'm going on. And like there's, you know, all the career like amazing.

things that should be very exciting. I'm like, great, but I'm a perfect. Yeah, and it's so exciting, but I'm a perfectionist, so I'm like trying to prep for all of them, like tours. I'm thinking about all these things. And then on top of all that, I'm like, you know, having to think about like adulting normal, like mundane things, which is, I'm sure you can, you know, relate to that balance is so hard sometimes.

Yeah. And all that to say, which we can dive into that too. But my friend Anthony Evans, he just, he put out his album. and it actually went number one, which is awesome. That's great. I'm so happy for him. But he, just on the way over here, I was, like, kind of feeling off. And I'm like, let me just put it.

I know that gospel music always makes me feel better. And I hadn't listened to it in a really long time, to be honest. I don't know why. I just haven't really been listening to music in general, I think because of work stuff and probably annoyingly having to listen to my own stuff for, you know, work reasons. But I put it on and I just immediately, I, like, felt this piece. and I was just like, wow, okay.

Yeah, like I'm good now. And so going back to what we were saying of just on the flip side of that, it is so cool to me that I could potentially be doing that for somebody. Like what I experience. You absolutely almost definitely are. Well, that's amazing to me. Like that's so, and people do, you know, online, you know, I get comments like that, but I don't think it hits me until I experience it.

And I'm like, whoa, this is what they mean when they say, like, you know, they're going through this crazy hard time and they put my song on and it just is this form of healing or it's helping them think about things differently or whatever. And it's like, I get goosebumps just thinking of that. Like to be a part of somebody's life in that way is just like the craziest thing ever. I have a theory. What? So I think that gospel music and the entire genre of,

like, let's call it praise or worship music, right? You could say Christian, but really, it's really more if you think about what it is. It's this praise, worship, music. One of the main ideas in religion is especially Christianity is gratitude. So what we pray before we eat, we pray before we go to bed, we pray in the morning, you know, you're supposed to pray. Not just to say thank you, but like it's a big part of it. If you think about everyone in praise is likely saying thank you first.

Right. Right. So gratitude to me is the most, it's the quickest way to get back to peace, joy, happiness, a sense of well-being, a sense of all things good is gratitude. And that is one of the biggest, I think, characteristics of like prayer. Yeah. And so one of the qualities of you and your music, And your overall brand is a feeling of, it is that same feeling we're talking about.

It's a gratitude feeling. Oh, wow. And I think that has everything to do with, like, worship music being, like, weaved into your DNA. Yeah, yeah. Because you can kind of hear it in all your music. And I do think that's part of why people like, like you, why they feel good when they listen to your music, and why they connect with you. I think there's some kind of reminder when you hear your songs to like feel a certain way. Yeah.

And I think it has everything to do with your love for gospel music. And I think there's something really important there that is weaved into your like musical DNA. Totally. That you agree. Give back out. Yeah. Wow. Cool.

That's cool that you picked up on that just by listening. Again, that's the fun part about being. an artist is like you know like i said it's all these different sides and layers and colors that i'm getting to paint with yeah there's no rules so fun yeah like any little idea can be a song any big idea can be a song any passing feeling can be a song yeah throughout a career you have moments and there's certainly like better moments there's the human moments like of different kinds of failures that we are all sure to have whatever they are right like we're all sure to have some failure yeah of any kind, whether it's a personal failure or moments where we're not our best self.

Yeah, yeah. But you come back to that like idea somewhere back there as a reminder. Like, hey, just get back on track or whatever. Totally. I have to ask you the same question now. What song are you most proud of? That's really hard. Proud is a tough word for me.

Yeah, how come? I'm proud of the young guys who put their minds to something and did it. I don't know if there's a specific song that I'm proud of. I'm proud of everything we've done in the sense of like, yeah, we put our minds to something and we did it. I do struggle with thinking any of it is any good. Really? Yeah, I always do. I'm just being honest.

Yeah, yeah. I love honest. But I'm okay with it. Okay. Like I think it's cool. Like we, I think that we're. we're on our journey and we're still finding ourselves still and i and there there's a couple songs though that i i feel pride um because i was like i wrote a song for my daughter it's on our

third or fourth record fourth record um and i'm proud of that moment yeah that i put myself out there and was vulnerable enough to sing i love that true love to someone yeah um that would probably be it Yeah, that's a great one. I feel like your fans will probably disagree with, with, yeah, thinking none of them are good. I'm more proud that we stayed together and that we all are friends. That we love each other. Is that rare, you feel like?

I think so. And, yeah, bands and groups. I think artists, we struggle to, I think it's rare. I think plenty of people have done it. But I think we struggle to communicate with one another and share ownership. of the success. I think we all have to feel like we need someone to. I think we're all just looking for a pat on the back, like a good job.

Wow. And I think a lot of times bands, when they fight, they're just not giving each other enough pats on the back and saying, like, we all did this together. Good job. Yeah. But I think I had to work out my own need for that and realize it was just because when I was a kid, maybe I didn't get enough hugs or something. But I think there's something like that and with a lot of bands for some reason.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know. I feel like I can really relate to bands when I see him fighting. You're kind of like, you're not really fighting about what you think you're fighting about. Yeah. You just need to hug it out. You just need to learn how I love each other, communicate, sit at the table together. Yeah, yeah. Everyone has a place.

Everyone's, if you come into a conversation and no one can be wrong, how they feel anyways, right? Like, certainly people can be wrong in arguments, but like how you feel can't be wrong in that moment. but if you can hear someone and feel how they feel, maybe you can get to the middle where you're both probably a little right and a little wrong. Yeah, that's empathy. Yeah. Exactly. We were lucky though.

We had a, we started in high school and I think we all grew up together. So I think we were always trying to like grow together. Yeah. Learn how to communicate. We had our moments, but everyone does. It's like being married to five people. To five people. Yeah.

That's wild. Yeah. I love that. That's really cool that y'all. Yeah, you all are. Is there anyone in your life that's been with you the longest? Yeah.

I feel like, well, from a work perspective, I was relating a lot to what you're saying when you're talking about your, a lawyer, like makes you ask your lawyer a lot of questions because I have been with mine for a really, really long time. Like I've, my parents, I would say are probably the official, like been with me.

the longest, you know, obviously they... They're super supportive. They're so supportive. And they were, you know, managing me at one point. Like, they... That's nice. They learned the industry. When I was signed at 12, I mean, I had to have my parents around and they just, they

were just like very excited and supportive and came on the road with me sometimes. And so I'd probably say them because they still, I'll still, you know, ask my dad is a musician. and he sings and stuff too. So I'll still, like, I still get kind of nervous, like, playing him songs. That's cool. And what do you think? And he'll give his little notes. Yeah.

And I think, yeah, wanting them to be proud. I still want that feeling. And same with my mom. She's much more. I feel like she's really good at, like, understanding business side of things. And it was almost like if the music comes first and then, you know, how you market it and social media. I think my mom's actually the one who, who got my Instagram for me like years ago.

Like she's so savvy with that stuff. Got a good mind for all that. Yeah, she's like, you're going to need this. I was like, what's Instagram? Like, what are you talking about? She thinks ahead. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I would credit them for sure.

And then the first person that I really added to like the team would have, yeah, would have been my lawyer. And he just, he believed in me super early on. And then my team from there just, I think has grown and everyone's been super great. And it's just, yeah, but I think believe. in me is like that's a big thing. I think as an artist you want to be believed in. Yeah, you feel it too. Yeah, when you're not. You know when they do and you know when they don't. Totally. Can't explain it. Yeah. And I show something to someone and their eyes glaze over and I'm like,

oh, you know, okay. Yeah, you don't get it. I got to go to someone who actually wants to like to hear this. Right. And I think that's why it was really special to have my parents so close. That's dope. Because they're obviously going to, you know, they believe in me more than anybody and want want the best for me. So yeah, I think it's cool to just even still have, have their input on things. If either one of my kids get into this business, music, or entertainment at all, I'm definitely managing them. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Because what I mean, you want to protect them. And you know too much. You know what you know and you see the best and you think long term and you just think that way. Yeah. And when you're young, you want what you want when you want it and you can get

blinded by certain things. I did anyways, you know, and you just want to have someone around that actually doesn't care about the money. Yeah. And or the whatever, the idea of the size of the success, like when someone's selling you on how big it could be, certainly it could be that big, but you wouldn't have started if you didn't think it could be that big. Right. So they're already, they're repeating back to you what you already thought somewhere way back there. Yeah. And I just think no one's going to like look after or protect my kids. More than you. And I used to wonder.

I used to wonder if I'd feel that way. And then they're teenagers now and I see them getting closer to adulthood. I'm like I feel like they're probably both. My son makes music. My daughter dances. I was going to ask. Okay. She's definitely interested in all of all the things.

So I'm like, well, I'm definitely looking at every single deal. Yeah. Regardless. Yeah. You know? I don't. blame me for that at all. You got to have somebody who just cares about you.

Yeah, absolutely. What are you the most excited about for the album and the tour? Getting them out? Yeah, I think having it be out is, yeah, is great. I think the process has been kind of long. I mean, it's been, gosh, since my last full-length album. If you don't count the Christmas album that I put out in 2020, the one before that was 2019.

So it's, yeah, it's been a while. Exciting. So exciting. I mean, I've stayed busy and kind of done things here and there, but it's weird to look back and like, wow, that much life has happened. And I'm in such a different place than that last album. So I think, I almost feel like I need to catch people up. Like, okay, let's get this out so they can like know where I'm at and, you know,

what my vibe is now and then move on to whatever, whatever's next. But I am excited to kind of live in these songs, you know, make them feel comfy, get on tour. Yeah, I have a lot of ideas for like the live shows and stuff with these songs because they're, they fit into all my other music, but it's just like everything's elevated, I feel like. So it's just taking it to the next level. I can't wait to hear it. I love John's work too. Oh, you two together?

Yeah. Get out of here. He's the best. That's a great combo. Yeah. He's awesome. That's really cool. It's a cool choice too, I think, for both of you.

I just feel like he just gets it. At least where I'm at right now, it's like he is an artist himself. So he understands that I want to stay. Like, yes, I want the big songs that we can belt in the car and like the hits and all the things. But it's got to be you. But it's got to be me. And I think he really understood from the jump, like what it means to be an artist, what it means to be authentic.

Because if you listen to his stuff, it's like so just him. Like it's so unique. It's just its own thing. Lyrically, he's just like talking about whatever he wants to talk about. But then he knows he's had so much success in the pop world. Yeah. So he gets both sides. And so I was like, I really think this could be cool.

And then we got in the studio. We did two songs. And after that, I was like, please do my album. Because I really just, I just think you'll nail it. And so it was cool to just lock in with one person and, you know, the team that he assembled and yeah it's like a real body of work yeah that was cool because i'm i feel like every album i start out by sort of like doing all these different sessions and it's not necessarily my favorite thing to just kind of hop around and try to write something in a day it's like i'm i'm slower

i'm like we could work on this song all week or we could start different ideas throughout the week but we can keep i like keep you know to keep going back to it and perfecting it and live with it Yeah, live with it. New stuff comes. Yeah. Instead of just like trying to bust him out, I want. I'm kind of the same way. Yeah.

Yeah. Like take your time with it. I actually learned that from, I feel like I'm just like name dropping now, but from Max Martin. Yeah. On my first album. Really? No. Hell.

I was like, wait. I've never met Max, but I've certainly learned a lot from his songs because I. Yeah. I celebrate many of them. But yeah, I've never never worked with them. but I would say that is a... I think we've all learned a lot from the great Max Martin. But yeah, it was such a trip to work with him on my first album.

And I think that's a big part of what I took away from working with him was just, yeah, how he's such a perfectionist with each song. You can take your time. Yeah, and I think I wrongfully assumed that it was more of a machine. like he just had this formula and it was like boom this is going to work okay next song boom and it's it wasn't that at all he's like a real songwriter he was in the room yeah yeah getting my ideas like i felt so respected as an artist and a songwriter and um but then i remember writing what became my first single thought it was done and then for like a whole other week we

tweak just the lyrics and it was just like that he was like the lyrics just don't have that that thing yet. And I was like, okay, I think I know what this means. He couldn't even explain it. But it's just that thing, yeah, that feeling. And so we just hacked away and hacked away. And I had never written like that before. I thought it was like you just, you know, strike gold in one day.

And it's like, there it is. But it's not how it is at all. It's a grind. So I think that's, it's taken the pressure off now having that experience with him. I mean, who's, you know, he's obviously. like the biggest hit maker ever and then realizing like okay i can it's okay that i'm a slow song writer yeah yeah i'm not good at writing a song real fast also the thing when we come in and we're like 18 or 19 we're kind of we almost we say like oh well what do i know so we don't think how would

i do it or how does how do i feel doing it we just work with our first couple producers and we we think oh this is how it works how it works instead of like really actually realizing like we're all kind of idiosyncratic and different. And like, we have to learn how we write songs. And the way you do that is working with all those different people. You pick up things you adopt and kind of go like, that works for me. And then some things you're like, no way, I can't do that ever again. But that's how you do it.

Yeah, yeah. And you somehow, you're like the perfect age. Like you mature into the songwriter that you are. You know what you know. You know right away. And then you know who to choose. to make your album and you know who to that's why i think this album is going to be your this is going to be your your best yet oh thank you you'll probably win gramis and stuff oh gosh

i bet i'll bet you money 20 bucks you'll bet you're nominated at least oh my gosh 20 bucks 20 bucks yeah are we shaking yeah yeah okay cool 20 bucks you and john nominated that's amazing yeah yeah that would that would be great that would i'll bet you this is this is one of those culmination moments. All this experience, all this stuff. Yeah. It all ends up in this like awareness. Yeah.

And then you make something that is true. I use that word a lot actually in the studio, just culmination. Yeah. Because it did feel like that. And both of both of our careers, Johns and mine, it just felt like we were coming together at this really cool place in each of our careers, feeling like we had had amazing careers but still had so much more to prove like a good place to be yeah and just sonically where we were both at and you know we we were both very inspired by just like that y2k like rmb yeah sound

that's dope pop rmb so playing a lot with that like 90s hip hop is a big a big through line in the album too so you know what you know yeah and you know what you feel and i think that's such a good pairing I can't wait to hear it. Oh, I didn't know that you made the record with him. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. It's a good duo. Thank you.

Yeah. Some of it is out because we did an EP first. So it was almost like a part one. Great. And then the album is sort of like completing all of it. Exciting. But yeah. So the tour starts April 12th.

Yeah. In two days. Two days. Ventura. Yeah. Do you ever go to Santa Barbara? Not for shows. But do you ever go?

But I've been there. Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's beautiful. my happy place. Really? I go all the time. Wow. And it's just, it's not that far. Hour and 20 or something. Yeah. Day trip. Yeah. That's so nice. But Ventura's like 20, 30 minutes away. Okay. From there. Ventura's nice. Yeah. Good place to start a tour. Oh, good. Yay. Yay. I love these conversations. I get more out of them than anything.

I bet. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, you had me thinking the whole time too, like this, what we're doing, just two people who are like in the same, industry, I just feel like that should happen more. And it, I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like there's sometimes this wall that I put up of like, oh, I'm just in my own experience and no one's going to get it. No one understands. And then I forget, like, wait, there's all these other artists doing the same thing. And you just, you know, all it takes is that one topic or whatever to open it up. And you're like, whoa, like, I relate to you so much. I didn't even realize it. And I'm finding that as I get older, it's just, these kind of conversations are so important with just like artist to artist kind of thing that's exactly

why I do it on one hand I just really love it yeah because I've been having these conversations for two decades and I always wanted other people to participate to be able to listen to them I feel like just like it's the last little thought I feel like we what you're doing on this podcast is really cool because I think it's showing that we're all a lot more connected than than not connected yes and that we all probably relate to things that we wouldn't have thought. And that people can relate to you that you aren't just walking around on clouds. Yeah. Like you're a person living a life trying to make their way through the world.

Right. And it doesn't matter. You've had tons of success. Some people could say, oh, like, what else do you want to achieve? Right? You're always going to want to achieve more. And you're always going to feel like you've achieved nothing. A lot of times when you go into the studio.

Yeah. It's like your first day again because you're looking that way, not that way. You know, we're always looking forward. And I think that's important because I do think that people should put artists more on the same level as them. Not to say, you know, pedestals, we all do it to someone. We put someone or something on a pedestal. And that's human nature. But I do think, like, the more people realize, like, you are literally just going through the world and telling stories of the experiences you have or the things you see.

I don't know. I think that connectivity with the listeners is really important. But I agree with you. I think there's something about artists making things together, including TV. To me, it's more special. Yeah. Just realer. I agree.

So thank you for coming and being a part of it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was a blast. All right. We'll come back when you were grabbing. Oh, yeah. I'm down.

I'm down. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Artist Friendly. If you really liked it, you can follow. like, subscribe to the show, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon. We appreciate your support and we'll see you next time.