Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Trixie Mattel (Rerun)

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden is bringing you an encore episode of his conversation with Trixie Mattel. Since winning RuPaul’s Drag Race in 2015, ⁠Mattel⁠ has blossomed into a formidable drag superstar, which makes her the perfect person to kick off Pride Month. Between creating subversive country ⁠albums⁠ (including team-ups with kindred spirit Orville Peck), uploading videos to her massively popular ⁠YouTube channel⁠, and helming her own ⁠cosmetics line⁠, Mattel only continues to reach greater heights with her unique and unapologetic business savvy.  ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify.⁠⁠⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? I'm Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. On this episode, I'll be talking to musician, DJ, New York Times best-selling author, TV personality, and iconic drag queen, Trixie Mattel. Let's go. That's my kind. I don't want no bad times. I don't want to have bad. Yeah, I think you can get away with glitter.

This is the industry. You ever get into a little glitter? You used to wear a lot of makeup. I used to wear a lot of makeup. Um, we, we have that in common. Um, my hair. Your hair looks great. I had to pull out of hair.

How long does it take you to do your hair? You know what? I don't want to like ask anybody to validate me. But I, for this thing today, I came into the studio yesterday and made this wig for this. Because I just wanted to, I wanted to feel like I was presenting myself. You really did. Yeah. Well, I have to say, I really appreciate you coming in in, in, in, with the full experience.

Because this is what I hope for. Good. Their hair looks amazing. Thank you. Thank you. But did you always do your own makeup or did you have somebody? I didn't have my own makeup. All the time.

Back then, yeah, you used to just, it was very simple. I would take eyeliner, just, and then I would just put some spin on my finger and just rub it. Oh, okay. And rub it. And my brother had like the streaks and stuff. But it was pretty easy. But yeah, we used to wear a lot of eyeliner. I'm familiar with spinning on the finger, not in the makeup and

environment. Okay. But very sophisticated. I bet you guys had access to like the best, coolest products. And you're like, no, I'll take my shitty black eyeliner. Thank you very much. Yeah. I still don't know a lot about makeup, but I certainly know more because, you know, my wife is such a glamorous woman when she wants to be. She is. You know, I know you have a twin and I kind of have the same experience with your wife. People always think we're the same person. Yeah. Because we're so petite and blonde. Yeah. People are like, is that? Do you get a lot of Nicole? A lot of Nicole, a lot of Nicole, especially when I tan, because, you know, her look for so long was very platinum, very tan, very darker eyes. Yes. And that's a little like me. Yeah. I can see that. And also we're in the same tax bracket and, you know, we're both very connected.

We're both. Lionel Richie's both of our fathers. Yes. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Nicole also, have you guys hung out before?

No, but I think in my mind we have. But, you know. I feel like you guys would like really have a good time. Yes. She's, she is a fun girl. She seems like for, for lack of better term,

a little mini drag queen on the inside. That I was going to say, I was trying to find my way of saying like Nicole is a drag queen, but she is kind of like she does really well with the drag queens. I think there's something very free that she has, the spirit she has. Yeah. There's a through line there.

I know she went on Rupal's on Drag. race once and did a guest judge. To compete. Yeah. She was competing. She wasn't going to be. Well, in her mind, she was competing. Right.

So she was looking at the hair and the clothes and she was definitely competing. But, you know, there's a wildness to her that I feel like guys would really hit it off. You've met Cam. Yes. So speaking of you surrounding yourself with drag queen people, I met your brother and Cameron, of course, at a drag show. Yes. I went to meet Orville Peck at a drag show.

Yes. And he was there and I was like, why? I was like, this is a little random here. And apparently during COVID, your brother and Cameron started watching drag race, like, their little activity. Yeah, it's like one of Cam's favorite shows. Yeah. And apparently he was like, oh, that became her religion during COVID.

Oh, you're revered in their house. Wow. She's revered in my house. This is one of the episodes. I talk to them about my show all the time. And we talk every day. We're very close. And this episode is a very big deal in our family.

like Cameron is a huge, huge fan. Well, again, my- Benj as well, and all of us. I mean, Nicole, Nicole's funny because she's just been down since day one. She's always been down with, but they, yeah, they became huge fans of the show, and then it opened the world up, and they've, they're real, real big fans. You guys probably always all have gay people in your orbit all the time. There's gay people everywhere.

You can't escape it. Yeah. It's really an epidemic. They used to be so few, and they were so hush, hush about. And now, now like your, now you're like cisgender, you know, a young cisgender person who is with the opposite sex is like, I'm queer. You know, like everybody, I think the cat's out of the bag. Cats out of the bag. And, you know, I grew up in a place where it was really not okay.

I don't care what anyone says. Because it's not that culturally there, everyone said it's not okay. That's not it. Maryland is a very liberal place. but in the small towns, if you're different, whatever kind of different you are, you're different. So it's not that people are consciously shouting like, you know what I'm talking about, I think. It's like the school was like football players and it was like very much like that normal kind of American story that you used to like watching the movies.

Oh yeah. That's kind of like where I grew up. Really nice people, but if you were different, you were different. And so I didn't have, and I grew up in a very troubled family, but also super religious. So like those tend to go hand in hand weirdly. It shows. It shows. Yeah.

For me? Yeah. Just kidding. It does a little bit. Hence me having the show because this is just like my therapy, right? And I was always felt like a bit of a misfit. And then we start our band and we are like, we do our thing. And in my mind, I was really different.

But then you go into a career in rock and roll and in music. and you get to meet everybody. And then certainly I married Nicole. I've been with Nicole for 18 years. She's surrounded by gay people. She's a gay man magnet. She's just got, yes. She's like that's, that would constitute probably like 70% of her friends.

Right. So it's been great because I have a lot of friends who are not a lot of drag queen friends, though. So that's why I'm excited to talk to you because I think it's such a cool way to live your life. Yeah, it's all right. I mean, you're one of the, you're one of the biggest drag queens in the world. Yeah.

Even height wise. I'm pretty big. Well, actually, no, there's a lot of big drag queens. And I like my drag queens on the extreme. I like either pocket size little bitches or like skyscrapers. Yeah. Because, you know, Rupall out of drag even is like six, five, six six or something. Yeah.

And in drag, she is, I mean, I'm not kidding. She probably her hair would touch the roof in this room. Yeah. I love giants in drag. Physical giants. Because I also think, I mean, the big hair and the big shoes, there's something about, something about height that takes control of the room. Right.

Something about giant people. It's imposing. It's imposing. And you're like an avatar walking around. Yeah. You know what I mean? You are like, all right, well, whether or not you're conservative, I'm bigger than you. Yeah.

And I'll fight you. Yeah. I probably run faster than you in these shoes. So I'll chase you. You will. Yeah. I can tell that. Yeah.

Back to your rusted down car. So take the tires out with the nail file. No. I wouldn't do anything. something like that. But I mean, drag is great because, I mean, similarly, maybe to music was all those things about you that are weird, there's this little pocket, this little world where all those things are superpowers. And you're like, all right, my swissy little walk and my no at all attitude and my mouth that gets me in trouble at every single job and every school I ever went to. There's this whole area where that's like, that gets you paid. I'm like, well, that's what I'm going to do. And I'm sure it was like that for you. I mean, as you said, you were troubled. Yes. Troubled youth. Yeah.

On the verge of a breakdown. Totally. You know, about to be trafficked, human trafficked or something. Yeah. I'm lucky to be alive. Yeah. And then you put on the eyeliner and stuff and you're like, well, this is how I'm showing. Was it weird for you to do something where like in this zip code in Maryland, I'm a freak.

But in these ways, it's like commercially successful. That must have been so surprising. Yeah. I think the thing I struggled with my entire life up until 18 was I. was not special. Because there's literally a copy of you walking around. Yeah, it's true. I have a twin brother and we're listening.

But I didn't feel loved. I didn't feel special. And I think every person deserves to feel loved and special. And I think, and to be themselves, to live their life and be themselves and feel special. Yeah. And I know that might sound like a lot of people in the world, especially the world we live today, it's very cynical and it's very, you're most of the time, if you make a statement like everyone deserves to feel special. People are going to argue with you that no one's special.

Right. And that's not true. At our best, we are all special. Oh, yeah. At our worst, none of us are and we all fight, right? Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. Sometimes with problems, I'm always like, one of the best things about having a problem is you ain't that special. The reality check of yourself is like, you're not the only one who has had a problem with your self-esteem or your self-image or a money problem. In your problem ways, you're really not that special, which hopefully is comforting. Yeah. But in your good ways, you really are special. The sameness of all of us is that we all have problems. Life is hard. And at the end, we all die.

We sure, alone. Alone. The sameness of us all, the through line that we can all relate to. The reason we can have empathy for one another when we are struggling is because we all know we're not off the board from having that too. So when someone else loses someone they love or they go through a hard time and, certainly if any of us are being attacked for who we are, right? So we could see that and have empathy for one another because we all in our deepest sense of who we are, no, that's not off the table for me either.

At some point in my life, I may go through a hard time like that. And so there's like, it's like watching someone fall and you go, oh, right? That's our natural empathy. Yeah. It's the pain we can feel, right? I feel that when I watch people go through the world, because I find myself to be a very open person in the sense of like, I just don't have a problem with anyone most of the time. Yeah.

Unless I see someone being a bully or mean to someone, that's when I tend to have a problem with someone. But like most of the time, I don't care what anyone else is doing. When I see people suffer, I feel, for whatever reason, I feel it deeply. But that's the sameness of all of us, I think. And then what makes us special is like who we are. And if we can, if we get the confidence or we're encouraged enough to express ourselves, that's our differences.

And that's the part. That's why I always want to talk to people because I like to discover what makes someone special. Well, I think for drag, it's nice because I guess you are special. But in a lot of ways, like, you dress up as someone else. And so it's sort of like, in drag, it's like, you are a star. Yeah. We just have to change your gender. your name, your height,

the shapes of your face, your voice, and how you smell, but you're a star. Yeah. And so it's kind of nice because you get to feel like a star. Well, you create a superhero.

Yeah, but you get to go home and be Clark Kent or whatever Wonder, do people know Wonder Woman's real name? They always talk about Clark Kent and Superman. Was it Wonder Woman? Gell Goddow. Yeah.

Oh no, what's her goddamn? Diana. Yeah. That's her name. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like those Wonder Woman movies? Yeah.

I fuck with those two. I do too. I know it's kind of like corny, but I love those superhero movies. I like them. Yeah. I'm down for a movie for a superhero movie. You're an empathetic person. Do you have a hard time watching YouTube videos of people fighting?

Yes. Okay. I was just going to say, that's where you and I might differ because I love to watch like a TikTok of, I do love to watch like a TikTok of high schoolers fighting. Yeah. Love. I think it appeals to our primal, the primal part of us where I think if we all, if, Certainly if I was attacked, I would fight.

When I was younger, I used to get into fights and stuff. Really? But yeah. Wow. Even at your height. Yeah. You just go for it. A little guy.

I was just a little banshee. Well, lower center of gravity, you can't get knocked over. Yeah. That's why I have a hard time with Twitter because you'll just scroll and there's just like terrible videos of like people, people shooting each other and people fighting. And I'm like, why would this? It really shocks me that someone would put that. up in the first place. Yeah. And they're doing it for the clicks or the views. Like it's literally just

the rope is in. I struggle with that because it makes me feel sad. What about the wholesome side of it as a performer, which is watching other performers fall on stage? Because that's sort of like I've been there. Yes. I cautiously, I'll watch that cautiously. Like I'll feel like, feel bad for them. But then I'll also go like, well, I've done that before. Right. Like I don't want to watch Pink's bungee cord snap and have her be killed. No, no, no, no, no. I know. But I might watch like, oh, Beyonce stumbled. So it's okay that all performers sometimes stumbled.

Yeah. You know? It actually makes me like them more. Yeah. Like, remember the video of Beyonce's hair getting cut in the fan? I didn't see that. Well, I'm bald, so I knew that's not going to happen to me. If my hair got caught in a fan, it would get snatched off my head.

The glue would give and it would just, how often are you in a wig? Oh, God. I mean, I never do bald drag. Okay. It's Easter once a year. Right. You know, Easter eggs exist one day. Yeah, the Easter bunny comes once you.

But I like to wear wigs and I will wear them 15 years in a drag. I guess I like wigs. Are you 15 years in? Yeah. I started when I was 18. I'm 34 now. So what is that? 16 years, maybe?

16 years. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Where did you grow up? I grew up in rural Wisconsin. Wow. Deep, deep country. Right?

Yeah. Like trailer on a dead end dirt road, you know. Wow. This is crazy. It was two hours. bus ride to school and two hour home every day. Wow. Mine was an hour.

I thought that was bad. Two hours is real. Yeah, two hours in the morning. I would get on the bus for an 8 a.m. arrival. I'd get on the bus at about 5.45. Oh, my God. Ride two hours to school. And what was that like?

I mean, in Wisconsin. I kind of have an idea of it. I mean, you obviously weren't going to school in drag. No. I wasn't going to school in drag. I didn't start drag until I was like 18 because I was so removed from anything gay. Right. I didn't even know what gay was.

Right. I mean, I knew I had crushes on guys, and I knew it was like, I had the sense to not tell everyone. Right. Because honestly, I went to such a small town, and there wasn't other gay teenage boys. Right. So if I'm not here to date, I'm not here to fuck. I'm not going to tell everybody that.

Right. So I just, like, got good grades and did music and did band. So I was just, like, kind of a nerd. Not a nerd. What kind of music did you do? I played guitar and the jazz band, and then I played clarinet and, like, the marching band. because I loved band. Because, you know, I got to go to the football games and I wasn't exactly athletic.

So I was, you know, march around the field, playing a little thriller, whatever we're playing. And then I would ride two hours to and from school every day, which was kind of nice because I got to listen to two hours, four hours a day of top 40 radio for like 10 years. Right. So I got really familiar with the kids on the radio. And I don't know, that's all I knew. So I'd always live that far from school. Yeah. So then later in life, I was like, that was fucked.

four hours a day, five days a week. Yeah, you don't realize it until later when if someone said, hey, you want to go back and do that again, you're like, fuck, no, I don't want to do that again. Yeah, also, I like to go into school, but like, mom, homeschool me at that point. Yeah. You know?

Because we had a lot of homeschooled kids around us, but my mom was really obsessed with us being, like, socialized. Right. She felt that kids have to go to school with other kids. Right. I agree with that. Yeah, it was fine. I mean, I feel like most gay people with a small town have, like,

horror stories, but our school was so small. The people I went to kindergarten with were the people I graduate with. There's a certain amount of anonymity in bullying. And we all knew each other's moms. What kind of car we drove. Right. I was gay and everyone probably knew it. But people are like, yeah, he's been walking like that since kindergarten.

Right. So like nobody was really a huge jerk to me. Plus, I was always friends with like the Nicole Richies of my school. So like it wasn't cool to be mean to like that girl's friend. Right. You get the girl to protect you. So you were friends with the popular girls. Yes.

You get them to protect you. She was popular in school. I always. give her a hard time about that because I wasn't. And I'm like, you're like the anti-story that I don't, when I was growing up, I used to tell myself that one day I'm going to be a winner and they'll see. Right. Right. And I needed that at the time. Now I have nothing but love. I hope everyone does well and I don't think that way. But at the time, that's what I held on to. Did you go to your high school reunion? I did not. Come on. No, I didn't. You got a chopper in. Yeah. Helicopter. Latter

Come down. Romeo and Michelle. Yes. Get Sandy Frank. Get, um, you know, get Alan Cummings to come with you. Yeah. Um, I wanted to go to my 10 year, but then I was doing some TV that summer. So I signed up to go to the reunion and you had to sign up online.

And our graduating class was like 30. So I was like, if I don't go, one out of one 30th of people aren't there. That's a big ratio. Yeah. So I paid the $10. You had to pay $10 to get the free hot dog because we're doing it at a baseball field. And they had to fill out all the stuff like, where have you been? I was like married.

No. No children. No. So it's kind of lame filling it out. And I was like, oh, all the stuff that is matters at this point has not happened. But I was going to go and I didn't get a chance to go. But I thought about sending an 8 by 10 in champagne like a psychopath. Like a picture of me and drag with like a bottle of champagne and flowers and be like, you know, go Rangers. I don't know. Do you keep in touch with anyone from back home? Not really. I mean, I have no. I don't even drive anymore. So if I wanted to go to rural Wisconsin, I'd have to like not just rent a car, but get a driver. Yeah. It's a little insane. Yeah, you would have to. And I want to go, like, I want to take a bunch of my friends there to be like, this is why I am the way I am. You know, this is the neighborhood I was cooked in. Can you believe I got out of here without doing meth? Yeah. Can you believe I made it out of a place where when I think about what you just said to me, it really strikes me.

So you grew up at the end of some long road in a trailer, a two-hour bus ride to school. So obviously the resources were limited and certainly just the amount of people were limited. So there wasn't like a big cornucopia of people around you that you could draw from. And you go to this school where you quietly make your way through it and it's nice enough and you're friendly with everyone. This is really we survive. We just survive. Yeah. And I think I was always like waiting.

I knew there was something in my personality that I could maybe at some point monetize. But I did not picture it in a wig and heel. I had like no concept of that. When I was 17, I bought, because I had my own car, my own money with my own little job, I worked to a chicken restaurant. And I took my money and I went to Target, I think. And I bought a DVD of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. I've ever seen it, of course.

Right? I feel like for rock people, that's like, of course you've seen it. It's classic and it marries what the, there's a whole side of punk music that is drag and it's all these things. It's different. It's rebellious in it in that. So to me, when I think of gay culture, when I think of drag culture, when I think of this, punk music, to me, it like weaves through all of it. And it's this rebelliousness to the mainstream or the main group or the sameness of everyone.

And there's so many different facets of punk music that you could say there's black punk music. There's all this different kinds of, and not just punk, but like the subculture of music, where people are finally able to express themselves, and this is the music that comes out, and it's like all these things. It's rebellious. It's angry sometimes. It's all the things that they weren't allowed to be or say for so long,

and you can feel it like bottled up. Totally. So I always related drag culture to punk because of Rocky Horror. That to me was like a really like punk rock musical. And there was always one of my favorites, still one of my favorites. So I've always kind of like understood it as like this anti- this rebellious art. Oh, yeah.

I mean, if you think about it, like, it's a little reductive, but like, and that type of music especially, the boys have, like, long hair and makeup on. Yeah. And the girls have, like,

pants on and playing guitar and screaming. And short hair with bangs. Yeah. It's already very gender. It's not gender swapping, but it's very, like, fuck you to what you think a man or a woman is. Yeah.

Don't tell me what to be. Yeah. So in my experience, the rock people are always honestly, like, a baby step from the drag people. Yeah. Now,

when you had, let's say you had dry mouth when you were in like early good Charlotte, would you have someone spit in your eye? Oh, spit in my eye. That's a good question. Like, hey, can you just likely not? Yeah. I'm a little bit of a germaphobe that way. Did you ever have long hair? Never long hair. No. Okay, yeah. So you didn't get to have that rock experience of like, no, I never got to have that. I feel like that's the main thing. People get the long hair so that they can like, I think I have an OCD thing from young, from very young, where everything has. has to be like tight and clean. Like the hair has to be shaved on the sides up to here.

Always, as long as I can remember, like, like I have a, I have a OCD about it. Yeah. I could never grow my hair out. You came from a pretty conservative area, right? Yeah, yeah. And you grew up pretty religious. I would say. And you've maintained some faith, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Was it hard for you? Can I still? This is like maybe too much. No, no, no, please. When people are faithful and have like a relationship.

with religion, was it difficult for you to have gay people and not have a problem with them? Because I always wonder, is that difficult? That's a really good question. Where I grew up, it was even the nicest people, the kindest people, were fine with gay people, but then behind closed doors, they were not. Right. I never felt that way. I just didn't have, I was always friends with, like, in my school, there was like the odd

three gay kids that you used. just like knew they were gay right and then what i think about is how many kids weren't allowed to be those were the kids that were at least comfortable enough to be themselves right i was always friends with those kids um but i always wonder how many kids didn't because i have a bunch of friends who live in la who were like i wasn't really able to be myself until i left home right and got out into the world and i could just live my life um those are the kids i i really feel for the gay kid that's having the gay, all the things that you go through as a young person that shape you, but they can't actually do that because it's just not okay yet until they leave.

That's how I felt. That's the part that's hard for me to stomach because I feel for that kid. So how long do you hide or pretend or do what you have to do to survive? Like, I feel for that kid. That's what I always think about. But I never had a, I never really had a feeling one way or another other than like, I wonder what that experience is like that. I've always been interested in like,

how hard is that experience? You know, like that to me is like what I've always thought. I was like, I wonder what that's like. The only thing I kind of regret and that that I think is a bummer is like, let's say you're going to prom. If you're a straight person,

who you take to prom matters. Yeah. When you're gay, you're like, who fucking cares who I'm going with? That girl or that girl that I won't have sex. I'll ask all for whoever says yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So I do kind of. in this, I wish there was moments like that where it's like, I think a lot of people that say have sex or have their first time when they're in high school. I didn't. But then I'm like, well, is anybody 15 and being like, that was the best sex I've ever had? I don't think so. I did it until I was older either. I was pretty conservative in the sense of like my confidence. Were you waiting for marriage? No, I was just not confident. Right. I couldn't. Yeah. You weren't like wait till I unleashed this dick on it. No. No. No, no, not. No. Certainly not not. You're like, oh,

God, what if this girl wants to kiss me? I think I was 19. Oh, I think that's still a teenager. That's still, that's, that's, that's not four-year-old virgin. No, no. It's still a good two decades before. And then I think it took me a long time to, I will say this, in my house, anything about sex or anything was completely buried, suppressed. We never talked about it.

Wow. In my mom's mind, we were waiting until we were married and we were all like, yeah, well, this is great. Right. I was never waiting until I was married. Yeah, there was definitely a stork that brought me to my mom's house. Yeah, two storks or a stork carrying two babies. And for a very long time. So that was not a, like, teenagers don't want to talk about sex with their parents, but as a parent, you have to kind of send the message, it's okay. So you don't have to tell me, but I just want you to know that it's your life, it's your body, it's your decision. I don't care. I only care about you loving yourself, take care of yourself, make good decisions. And as long as you are

being treated well and you're doing what you want to do, go forth into the world and live your life. That's how I feel as a parent. I don't want to know what they're doing unless they want to tell me, but I have two teenagers. We don't necessarily talk about like their personal lives too much. I know what's going on enough to know like they're, they're on track. Well, are you really supposed to at this in this day in American history be like do you kids need the talk yeah no they don't need it because they don't talk and they have everything else yeah and i and i just tell them as long as you guys have the like and in school also they do all these things and and they know what the fuck is up so i'm more like hey i just want you guys to be safe and take care of yourselves and make sure that like

you're treating people well and they're treating you well and that you're where you want to be when you want to be doing what you want to be with who you want to do it with right right Right. And that's the confidence that I didn't have any clue of, like, how to choose and what. So I was very immature for a long time around the whole. It was like a, not to say it was a mystery, right? You figure things out. But, like, I didn't have that, like, confidence to let go.

I'm going to make my own decision. Right. Right. But I figured it out. I ended up with Nicole. And she's- It all worked out. It all worked out.

And maybe you guys can do some, like, retroactive healing. Like, you can go to a homecoming together. Yeah. like, you know, replay certain amounts. I read this book about family dynamics, and they said that from trauma, people try to replay situations from their youth but have different endings.

Yeah. So sometimes we replay flaws in relationships we saw. Yeah. So if you really do have any regrets about high school, you put on your law high school, what year are we in high school? 90s? Yeah, in 90s, it was, uh,

97 was when I graduated. You put on your little 1995 outfit and you go, would you like to go to the malt shop or whatever, you know, whatever the kids did back then? Yeah. And then there you go. That's like a therapeutic exercise.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I don't know. I have like no regrets other than, I mean, I came out when I was 18. Okay. How is that? Corny. So corny. So.

Tell me about it. Why was it corny? Oh, God. It was so corny. It was like, so on TV, they make it look like, this is just when like, you know, maybe they would have a gay teenager on a show. Right. And they would never have sex.

They would never kiss. They would just be gay. They just had like extra jewelry on. and that's it. Right, right. That woman had short hair and that's it. It was the token gay. Yes.

The woman had a tie on, not in Avrilavine way. Right. In like a Diane Keaton way, you know, and that's it. Right. But then when I came, I was like,

Mom, I have a boyfriend and I'm gay. And my mom could not have cared less. Right. And so television trained me for this like eruption. Right. I thought mom would cry. I was ready to start. Did your mom say like, oh, I knew.

Not only did she say that. She was like, Brian. I'm just happy you'd fall in love with anyone. Anyone who loves you. And I was like, give it up, Val. Like I wanted someone to cry. And then she was like, well, I kind of knew. I was like, well, you didn't have to say that.

You know, she kind of made it sound like, who were you fooling, bitch? You know what I mean? I was like, I was like, couldn't you have act shocked? Yeah. Because, you know, I was young enough that I still thought maybe I could have been hiding it. So I was like, well, couldn't you have been like, we had no idea. But she was like, we all know.

Yeah. My aunt, my lesbian aunt Gooch. Her name's Aunt Gooch. She's a plumber. She has a black mullet. That's my mom's sister. Right. And I called my aunt first.

And I was like, Aunt Gooch. Uh, hey. I was like, I have to tell my mom. And my aunt was like, Brian, she's not going to care. And she probably already knows. So everybody was giving very like we already knew. Yeah. And I've told this story before.

But my brother, who I told first, he's five years older than me. Yeah. I was like, shit. Told my brother. And he was like, Brian, I don't care. He was like, I don't like tomatoes. But why would I care if other people like tomatoes? tomatoes, which was, you know, it was okay. Well, my sexuality is not a vegetable. Well, it's a fruit.

I guess tomatoes are fruit, but it was all fine. No one cared, which I guess is nice because as a small town person, I feel like it's supposed to be a shootout. It's supposed to be. Somebody's supposed to whip a liquor bottle at me. I thought a trailer. Well, I do think that sometimes, especially now, and I'll say this, like, I do think that that story is real, right? There are people who come from a place where it's just not okay for them to be who they are. And then there are people who had, who didn't have that experience. I have a friend who said it was,

it was an amazing experience that he, he wishes he would have done it sooner because everyone was so, like, supportive and loving, and they all knew when they were happy. But sometimes the small towns get a bad rap in that regard. That's what I mean. Yeah. There's a picture of like,

get your pitchforks and torches. We're going to let that faggot have it. I can say faggot to have a gay friend. Yeah, yeah. But honestly, there needs to be more stories of like small towns where like it was a lot of compassion. You know, there's hillbilly white trash. And then one step this way, there's hippies.

Right. My mom was like an old stoner. So she was like, I don't care. Who cares? And my mom was actually offended that I thought she'd be mad. My mom was like, when have I ever made you feel like I would have a problem with that? She was actually kind of plucked about that. Right. But then there's also a second coming out, which is telling your family you do drag.

I mean, saying I might lay down with a man as I would with a woman is one thing. Right. The other thing is like, and then I put on nasty bras and panties and roll around while people throw money at me. Right. You know, that's like a different thing. And my family never cared about that either. Even when I started like having my break and being on TV and stuff, they still are like, well, whatever you got to do for money. they're just like so unimpressed but in a very healthy way yeah were your parents like go your band

uh you're not not really so my dad wasn't around at that time he had left when i was younger um well he saw the eye makeup and he was like he was out he was a real old school yeah um well i will say this though when he was he was around so he was about 13 13 14 was when he was really gone for good He was always a guy, though, even in his, he was very old school and like he worked hard and he was, you know, grew up in a simple place. He was he was not a racist. He was not anti-gay. He was not, he was very much similar to me. He was very much like everybody lived their life. He, he, he, he, he, so I will say that about him as, as old school as I say he is, you would imagine a guy would have a problem with other, with, with, with, with any of that and he he wasn't my mom was probably more the person who would she was very judgmental because of her religious right heavy religious stuff so uh it's not that she would make someone feel bad about themselves in person it was when we got home what she would say it's a car ride it was the messaging it would be like well those poor that poor poor poor guy doesn't

you'd be like what are you talking about i always found myself at a difference with my mom around social things. Right. Because, and I love my mom. And she comes from a, like I said, a small, simple place, very religious. She's changed in her older age. I think she's learned. Like, and I think we've had an influence on her. Oh, people chill out. They chill out. They chill out. Yeah. I think you're scared when you're raising kids that they're going to be, like, whatever. And so as far as the band goes, she didn't understand it. Well, she was like kind of Christian, very Christian. It sounds like, and you guys were like in black playing guitars.

Yeah. She's like the epitome of Mama Tried. Yeah. Like are you, are like, like is your soul okay? Yeah. Would you guys like to join the church band? Yeah. Did you do faith music?

No, we never did, but grew up around church and the first instruments we got were given to us by someone at church. Nice. So the church did have a part in the album music. But we never played like religious music. Yeah. I never really found myself, like, I didn't have a soul connection to that music. Well, I mean, part of, like, the DNA of drag is we change the way we look to get a certain

reaction, right? And, like, no matter how commercially viable drag has become, I mean, I can't really complain about drag being sold out and, like, commercialize because guess who's one of the Mickey Mousses that continues to put price tags on it and sell it in the yard sale? Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways. But that's a good thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, I love that it's commercial. I love that drag queens can make money. Yeah. On the other hand, of course, I miss the teeth of it when no one knew so you are and you're not making any money and you're really just out there to disrupt society more. Like, when I first started doing drag, I just wanted to like, fuck with people. Right. I wanted to put on, I wanted people to be uncomfortable. Like, I used to take the bus to drag shows to do drag. And on one hand, I was like, I feel unsafe.

On the other hand, I was like, yeah, look at me, motherfucker. Oh, fuck you. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not I want to fight you, but like, I hope you are. uncomfortable. I hope that you go to bed at night and feel weird after seeing me. And when you guys started to dress like you did for shows, was there some, I mean, they obviously was some goal of like, if you wear all black and put makeup on, you want

people to feel X, Y, Z. Yeah. So back then, it's the same thing that I, I imagine you experienced on some level, us certainly not as extreme, but in other ways maybe. So you cover yourself with tattoos, which wasn't, now everybody has tattoos. Yeah. 20-some years ago, it wasn't like that. It was like, you had tattoos. It was a certain kind of person. And like, you had to say goodbye to certain jobs. Of course. Like, you know, people will see you this way forever. And now that's not the case. Right. You have police officers with full sleeves. You have politicians with tattoos. So it's different. But so dressing in all black was also like different than. Right. It was like, oh, they're wearing all black and they have tattoos. It was different. And no one died. Yeah. And so back when you said,

oh, they look like a member of Good Charlotte. You knew what that meant. Right. Now everybody looks, everybody wears black. They have tattoos in their face. There's no, all bets are off. I love face tattoos. Yeah, yeah.

Do you have a face tattoo? I don't have a face tattoo. Have you ever thought about getting one? Yeah, I have. You know, Benj has his whole head tattooed. He has a couple little ones in his face. My kids have said they don't want me to get my face tattooed, but I'm getting my head tattooed.

So I'm going to get the sides right here down into like my sideburn. I love that here and right here. I'm getting them pretty soon actually like in two weeks. That's going to be a very sensitive area. Yeah. I'm very excited about that. So that would be the closest thing to a face tattoo I would have when I get that. It's on the roadmap for.

That's pretty close. That's just the tip. Like that's pretty close to the base. Just the tip. Do you know about soaking? What's soaking? Do you know? I don't know why this is where my mind is.

Tell me about it. So I learned this when I was in Salt Lake City. Okay. So the Mormon people, you know, they're not allowed to do certain things sexually and they're very restricted when they're teenagers. I do know that. Okay. Soaking apparently. This is what I've learned from the locals.

And you don't laugh over there because this is some people's lives. Okay. Yeah. These are real people. Apparently the woman lays on the bed. The man puts the penis in the woman's vagina, I believe is his terminology. And then someone jumps on the bed. And that way, no one's breaking rules.

No one's fucking. Oh, just someone jumped on the bed. I guess. Isn't that wild? It's still sex. Honey. That's what I'm saying. Semantics.

It's still a face tattoo. And it's weird. So they have a. You're soaking. So they. So yeah. So yeah. So your point is made.

So they have someone else like a third party jumping on the bed. Yeah. A trusted friend or colleague. That just that to me just makes it even like more kinky. Yeah. And I have a Casper. Like my mattress is. one of those ones where you can put a red line on there and someone can jump. Right. It doesn't move.

So not much is going to happen. You'd have to get a good old box spring or a waterbed if you're real nasty. God bless the Mormons. They really, they figure out all the like kinkiest ways to break the rules. Yeah. I mean, I guess there are limits we tell ourselves, right? Oh, we didn't have full sex because X, Y, Z. I just think once you involve, you know, somebody on a trampoline, you know, doing backflips on the bed. Like once you give it up. That's like a, that becomes a different thing.

Yeah. And also if there is a God and he is restricting your sex behavior, you don't think that person, God, it has a lot of insight to be like, yeah, that's sex. You know,

like they're looking down at you and your friend, because now all you've done is have sex in a way where there's some friend. Yeah. You know, I just think it's fascinating. How do you get along with religious people? Love it.

I have no issue. One of my friends I play. music with, he was really religious and we were doing a tour and I said, can I just ask you a question about God? And he was like, of course, anything. And he was one of those people whose Bible looks like someone's date book. It is marked up to hell. Pusted notes. You would think that every day he takes an exactone just shreds. It was like a bound book from the first employee at FedEx. A real man of the word. Yes. Where everything has a footnote and it's like, I was like, why do you play guitar for me if you're really religious? Yeah. You feel weird like doing a show with me. If I'm

up there telling horrible jokes and, you know, wearing a wig and stuff. And he was like, you know, people who are really into their religion like me, the people among us who have the loudest, most extreme voices get the most airtime on the news and stuff. Right. So he's like, just because I care about God as much as that person doesn't mean I have the same like anti-gay views as that person. And that really blew my mind that somebody would befriend me and work with me and go on stage with me, but still like pray before the show and stuff. That really blew my mind because when I was young girls like, well, all those people hate me. I don't like see a religious group and think like they hate me or I hate them. Like in college, I used to go sing at the churches for scholarship.

I had this scholarship where I had to go to the Presbyterian church and sing with the old people. Okay. And I mean, they were always really nice to me and they knew I was gay. They knew what I did for a night job too. I mean, I would have church rehearsal from seven to nine on Wednesdays and then I would get in my car drive to the club, get in drag and be lip syncing by 11 on stage. Right. So I was like going and singing like the faith music and then going and rolling around all nasty in a wig. Wow. And it was like fine. Yeah.

People were all, I don't really have a major issue. I feel like I'm being a traitor to drag queens because now when they show up at my shows and they pick it, which does happen. Right. I almost feel bad because I feel like, what a waste of time. Like, yeah, yeah. People at the drag show are not going to see your sign and be like, you know what? Let's go home. Now I want to go more.

Right. Yeah. Like I think there's this other. I've heard of drag. Queens hiring church people to pick it as a form of marketing. Yes. So you hire someone to dress like a church lady. Well, now I want to see what this is all about.

Yeah, totally. I'm fine with it. I mean, I don't think a lot about it. I will say this. I've talked about this before. I think the idea that there's something bigger and better that comes after this sometimes feels disrespectful to the privilege of being alive now. Yeah, I hear you.

Spending 90 years alive and being. like, oh, I'm waiting for something cooler later. Don't forget that being alive right now is also fucking cool. I share a very similar thought around being told my whole life that it's okay that we're poor because when we die, well, okay, so wait. So it's all about that. Right. And then when we die, we're going to get mansions.

And so then you grow up and you go forth in your life and you build a life that you actually like living in. and it's a real life. And money, forget out the money for whatever. We all work hopefully on things we love to do and we build a life that we're proud of. Right. I don't want anyone else's house.

I like my house. I don't want anyone else's career. I like my career, right? Like I hope that my kids find themselves in a life like that where they like what they've done and what they're doing. And then you get to the reality of actually living because there's a lot of values in religion that are really good, really valuable, treating each other, like, treating your neighbor

as yourself, things like that. The really important values. But do I want a mansion? Do I care if streets are paid with gold? And if gold is something that we value here, why would we value it there? The whole idea of like, don't worry, don't try. It's okay to suffer and be, you know, to have a horrible life here because as long as you believe in this, you're going to get this. And then it's kind of like a distractor from the real work of life, which is grow, become the best version of ourselves, become the most optimal people we can be. Right. Like try to figure out and solve problems.

Try to like cure things, cure diseases and like the amazing things that humans have done would not have happened if we were all like, eh, well, I'll just suffer because when I die, everything's going to be gold streets. Or it's like, I better be good now because of later. What if heaven didn't exist, wouldn't you still want to be a kind of half good fucking person? Yeah, yeah. Like what's the point? What is the reason to be good?

Right. Is it to get my jail, get out of jail free card? Is it to get my pass into the after party? Or is it because it's actually actually in our nature to, I really actually believe this. I got the core of humans. it is in our nature to like it's tribal we come together and we solve problems and we we build out these communities and we like live well together right not alone we do it together yeah all have and we find our tribes in our communities so i really agree with you like i feel like i do feel like

transcendence is important i think that the transcendence side of life is it helps us to believe that there's a you know god or a higher power um someone watching over us or someone that, you know, I think that's important, but I don't think it's because after I just want to make sure that I get into heaven. Right. I mean, those are the things we tell ourselves. It's dishonest. Yeah, and maybe it's like a bedtime story you tell yourself when your life sucks.

You're like, later it'll be great. Yeah, yeah. But I grew up really poor, like really poor. Yeah, yeah. And I remember telling myself, well, rich people don't struggle. So I'll be a better person when I grow up. I'll be a really good person. I kind of had this idea when I was younger that having nothing,

was virtuous. But that's because I thought like, well, I'm going to be, this is all going to pay off. Like, be having nothing. We'll pay off later. But then as an adult, there's lots of rich people who are really nice and lots of poor people who suck. So like, I guess when I was younger, I thought, because I'm struggling, I'm going to be such a good person.

There's tons of people who are poor and are shitheads and tons of people who grew up with money and are very compassionate sweet. So that rule as I got older, I kind of threw up. Yeah, you learn that the truth of life is that we're all, it's the same with everything. You could say, if I'm a person who is a conservative, let's say I'm a Republican, and I'm like, all liberals suck. And you're like, that's not true. But some of them do. Oh, yes. And on the other side, I'm a liberal. All Republicans suck. Well, that's not true. You certainly would meet people and get along with them if you left that out of it and you didn't and you didn't know and then you find out later

you'd be like I really like that guy it doesn't matter what we are it doesn't matter if you're anything you're going to find people that suck that are a bad time and you're going to find good people who are a good time and if we put labels on if we are too quick to label things rich poor this that we're never going to find out if we get along with that person and we have a good time and I'm very slow to label people. But I've always been that way. I've always been friends with everybody. Same.

I mean, I really don't, I don't think I have any enemies. Comment below if you don't like us. One of you, someone. This is your moment to speak up. Yes. They'd be like, well, actually, Joel, I've hated you since we were in high school. Or like, actually, Trixie, you're a ball bitch. Or I don't know, whatever they say.

You know what? I will say this. Like, sometimes people challenge me to be more, like, pointed and have a stronger opinion. and it just doesn't live it doesn't live in me. No, I mean, I'm a drag queen, but I really lack that combative bone. Like, I feel like you could really do some combat, though,

if you wanted to. I don't know. What was the hardest era of being a drag queen? Because I feel like now it gets used as like a poster for something that's like, it's like people use the idea of drag queens to, politicized things. And it's, that I get, that's like a social media show to me. That's like, like, not to say it's not hard to be a drag queen. I'm not saying that. Just like a music career, right? Because you're a musician first. Right. Right. And you're a performer. And then all the layers of

that. That's a hard ass career. And now you're iconic. And you certainly thought you were iconic then. And you could argue you've always been the same. But certainly you're in a room of people that don't, that haven't gotten there yet and you're there doing your thing with 10 people. Like, is that the hardest part? Just like a band? Well, it's weird because, you know, I started drag 16 years ago. At that time, drag race hadn't even started. The only famous drag queen was Rupal and she wasn't even as famous as she is now. Right. So at the time, which is crazy. At the time, like, I couldn't really even imagine the career I have now because it didn't. There was not. Didn't live in the world. Yeah, it didn't exist because this industry wasn't an industry.

Right. This drag was still at 1 a.m. on a Monday for like five people. Right. And I do kind of miss that fun of it. I do kind of miss, you know, I was talking to Kim Chi, this other drag queen who we used to do drag back in the day and she's a huge famous drag queen now. And we were like, in some ways, the best times we had in drag were back in the day when

we were making no money and no one was paying attention to us. And no one knew what it was. Like no one knew. Because the stakes were so low. And so we were so free because nobody depended on us for money. We didn't care. We weren't going to make money. And the audience wasn't going to like us or care or probably, you know, the stakes were so low.

And so in that ways, like there was so much more freedom. Right. I guess what I struggle with, the hardest thing for me is there's a mis-americanness associated with drag that were all care bears and that we all are trying to heal the world. And for me, it's always been about attention and drink tickets. Yeah. And I feel. And I've always dreamed of selling things with my face on it. I've always dreamed of being, you know.

Hence the makeup line. Yeah. That's dope. I always wanted to be Elvira or Peewee. Yeah. More than I wanted to be a drag queen. I love Peewee. In the beginning, I just wanted to fuck with, I wanted to make people a little

uncomfortable. You know, I was in the dorms. I would buy my little shoes and my makeup and like so cringe, like 18 year old, you know, Rocky Horror drag acting foolish. Do you think that the part of you that wants to be in your, your face, it was born out of having to be like a quiet church mouse for 18 years. Yes. And honestly, the kids who come out early or the kids who start, I know people who went to

high school and drag. I always felt like, and this is maybe sociopath behavior, I always felt like I was laying in wait. I was like, it's not really worth it now. But when I leave this town, love this town, Silver Cliff, Wisconsin love, I'm about to be so weird and so gay and so obnoxious. Yeah. Like when I actually unleash,

I like that. Y'all are not ready. Yeah. But I didn't feel through high school like stifled. I just felt like I was waiting. I felt like I was waiting. I felt like I didn't have the same goals as other people and I was waiting. And then when I had freedom, when I had my own dorm room and my own part-time jobs, my own money,

especially when I started being able to be 21 and go do drag like in nightclubs. Right. I felt so free and wild and crazy. And it all came so fast. But I guess what I struggle with now. to answer your question is just like the there's to me a certain amount of being self-indulgent in drag

I just want to like look pretty and have people tell me I look pretty and be funny and that's most important to me yeah and I would say healing the world is not on the top of that list well we all we all can't be the same yeah and I feel like with drag now there is like a Miss America to it where we're like I just want people to love each other

I do want that but I also just want like drunk people to think this is cool I agree with you. I think that we live in a time where like virtue, virtue signaling is something everyone has to do on some level. Yeah. Doesn't matter who you are and what side of the virtue signaling you're doing. Like whoever, whatever crowd you're trying to please with your, like,

signals of like, I'm a good person. Everyone's doing it to someone. Right. And I'm actually super cautious to try to not do it because I actually want to mean what I say. and so I'm not the most, I'm definitely not the most politically active person. I do some charity stuff.

I don't always advertise it, but I do it because I want to do it and I actually feel good doing it. It makes me feel like good about myself and I get a lot out of it. Right. And some, and if there's a cause I can get behind

and try to raise awareness for, I'll do it. But like, that's not my main driver of like why I get up every day. And I struggle with my, like, am I a selfish person for not pouring every ounce of every post I do on socials about, but I just have to be okay with being myself.

Right. And I definitely do what I feel like I should, I need to do. And that's what I'm happy to do. Yeah. But if one of my kids was like, I'm going to go and spend my whole life and give back, and be of service to some cause,

I'd be happy. I'd be supportive of them because I would hope that they're doing it because they feel it. And it's not because they're putting on a show for everyone to, Like, I do think that's the danger of the lie of right now in culture is that everyone's perfect and you're either good or bad. No, we're all a little bad and we're all a little good. Some people lean more on the good side.

Some people lean more on the bad side. It's very complicated to sum someone up. Yeah. But I'm very, very careful about trying to present as like this perfect person who has it all together because I don't think I am. And I definitely don't want to advertise that. And I think that there's an easy, slippery slope in entertainment to get pulled down. Totally.

The like perfect lane. And then, but if you do that, you're going to be switching directions every five seconds with whatever is culturally the thing to say or do. And by the way, you're just a person. Yeah. You're not a political analyst. No. You're not an expert in international affairs. Nope.

Like, I do find, this is what I think. And this is just my two cents. I don't think in this country. civics is taught enough like small government or like who to vote for why voting matters etc yeah but we worship celebrities and rich people yeah so when the world is falling apart we don't appeal to those who actually have control and can help we go to rich famous people and go like help us obi won yes and it's a little like when national crisis happens and also the problem is too especially online brands now pretend to be people yeah you know like the Kleenex twitter tweeting

like walking into Monday like, I'm like, you're not a person. You're not a person. It's true. And so I do think it's weird that we deeply, deeply need to know. I saw this thing I don't like on the news. I need to know what Jalo thinks now. Yeah. It's like those of us who are artists and performers, we are so not as smart and so not

as educated. I was just going to say you're really smart. Well, at some things. At some things. Did you get good grades? Of course, perfect grades. Yeah. I don't tell you.

You're very intelligent. Even in college and it skipped classes. That's where you're supposed to block class. Not me. I have barely even canceled shows because I never fake calling sick. You're a little bit of a perfectionist. A goody, goody.

Like I really cosplay as like a loud in your face. Wild. Wild. Controvert. Does everybody want a party when you show up? Like, is it like, oh,

the party started. Oh, yes. I'm little Debbie. Yeah. Like, I'm so, like,

I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm not that party girl. But it's fun. to play into it a little bit when you're there. Like Nicole does that. Like when she shows up, everybody thinks the party started. She's actually not, but she can do it. Like she shows up and she goes with it and everyone's like, well, she certainly like has partied, but she has. Yeah,

more than me. Breaking news. Yeah. You and her have been bad in your lifetime. More than me. But like I do see that like when she shows up. It's like, oh, the party started. I always wonder like, it must be, obviously, you show up and everyone's like, okay, let's go. She's doomed to like a lifetime of showing up at parties and disappointing people. She's like, sorry, I just came here to like sit and listen. Yeah, she does it well. I mean, I like that though. I mean, that's part of why I love DJing is because when I do my party soloping disco

that tours, it's like a big pink disco party where people come head to toe and pink and they dance. And I get to supply the party vibes without having to carry on a fanny pack with G in it. You know, like I'm not a. I'm a wholesome party drag queen. But you're also kind of like undercover like a little bit of a nerd. Oh, yes. I mean, I don't even drink anymore.

Like boring.com. That's, I think you have a lot of stuff going on. I was saying you have the makeup line. Yes, I sure do. Trixie Cosmetics. Yeah, we're doing, we're doing fourth year now. Fourth year. You have a New York Times bestselling book with Katya called Trixie and Katia's Guide to Modern

Womanhood. We did it. We can't even read. Yeah. You started a podcast. You have a podcast. Yep, the bald and the beautiful. The bald and the beautiful.

You have Billboard Heat Seekers number one charting as a recording artist. Yeah, which, you know, not to one up you, but, you know, but that's a pretty big deal. You won drag race. I did. Right. So to me, there's this like. Don't forget my only fans. And you're only fans.

Okay. I do. I do. I do. Perfect. No, I don't. I could use the, we should do like deep fake only fans. fans where we have someone head swap. Oh my God. Yeah. Well, you were really, did you ever have a fake

celebrity nude leak? I feel like when you were hitting big, that was the time of bad CGI like. Yeah. And it was like bad like the wrong head on the wrong body. Like, no, I never did. Damn. That never happened to me. Thank God. But the fake ones were so good. Yeah. They are good. And now they're all fake. But they're convincing. I really, I have to say, I understand a celebrity. we throw ourselves out there. Yeah. I have a huge issue with celebrity nudes being leaked. I find it so violating and so wrong.

Yeah. So wrong. And the way like Twitter will trend when someone's nudes are leaked against their will makes me feel horrible. It's downright evil. It's really horrible. I don't know what that is. Well, it's the most compromised that someone could be.

So it's, and against their will, it's the ultimate violation of someone's privacy. So, and it's the most mass accepted. So where we, if we see someone being victimized, we all join together and say, that's wrong. Okay. Yeah. But that's the one place because you're a celebrity or you're a famous singer or you're or whatever and someone's violated you, so they've gotten you in your most compromised naked. Right.

And they're going to put it out there for all of us to take a peek, laugh, say whatever, comment. it's the one place where we've all accepted like culture as a whole has accepted it as okay because they allow it to happen if twitter really wanted to stop that they would but they don't they'll let it go on long enough to get all of the to get the benefit of the fire it starts right and then they'll and then they'll take action that's not real action so so that's it's like that lukewarm middle of the road um i'm not going to help you but i'm I'm not going to hurt you, right? That's like the, that's, to me, that is like the ultimate kind of, like,

violation of someone is to expose their private, their privacy, a naked picture or there's lots of ways you could do it. But that's the most, like, visceral, like, physical representation of that is like. And, like, accept it. Like, if somebody naked, somebody famous naked picture leaks, people feel fine going to find it and looking at it. It feels so weird to me. they feel totally fine or like or like some like sex tape or something like when that when is a sex

tape ever hurt someone well it well well everybody's famous from it I guess well well if we measure fame is a good thing I tend to think fame is a stressor that we manage yeah see us as it causes PTSD yeah so I think it I think it's a it's a real um it's sold as a good thing but actually it's I don't know if it's good or bad I don't judge it like that's my take on fame is like, I don't know if it's good or bad, but I know that you have to manage it so that you can hopefully keep the real person alive and you don't just become a caricature of yourself that's no longer knows what they even like to eat or what color they want to paint their walls.

Or you become the person who has a meltdown if they don't have the color M&Ms you request. Yeah. That's my goal. On top of the naked thing, on one hand, I'm like a Viking warrior for porn people. Right. Sex workers, porn people, they should be protected. If you want to put your tithes on the internet, oh my God, I'll retweet it. I'm happy for you.

But they want to. But you want to. Right. And I appreciate that. I have no problem with that. Love it. But it's the girl or the boy who didn't want it, didn't want to. And someone's forcing them.

Yeah. And that's the, that's exploiting someone. That's victimizing someone. Yeah. I don't even have like an alt Twitter. I feel like a lot of people have a fake, a private Twitter for porn. And I don't because I also feel like what are my- Private Twitter for porn?

They have a separate private Twitter for just, you all know, for following porn accounts, because otherwise, like, your Twitter account will say so-and-so followed deep miltholes or whatever, you know. And I don't have a private because I follow. Yes, because I feel like, what am I telling the kids if I tell them I should be secretive about liking porn? So I'll, like, follow an account. But then, like, of course, I literally work on like HGTV.

So my boyfriend, I'll be like, you cannot on one hand tweet like, watch Trixie Motel. Hell, season two, and that like an hour later, follow like Daddy's X, X, X, X, X, X. And I'm like, but I mean, I'm not going to be ashamed. That's the thing about gay people. There's a lot of freedom in that, though. Yes. There's a lot of freedom in that. You spend so much of your life concealing and pushing down and saying, don't, don't be too loud about this thing you like or want. And so as an adult gay person, you were like, I will publicly follow the porn account. Right. I will put on the wig. Sounds free. It is. Because imagine you spend your whole life sitting and then you're allowed to stand. And you're like, why would I sit back down, bitch? I'm here. You know? How about that? Clip that, honey. Clip that. Because for real, we spend, you probably get this in that. In your environment, it sounds like you had at least a healthy dose of oppression for a teenager because it was. I had a good amount of oppression because of the religion. Right. But I do recognize that.

being a straight white male is a different experience than being a gay kid, being, you know, a black kid growing up in America, being all these other things. So I was always interested in other people's experiences because mine is the straight white guy. So now, the oppression or the adversity that I dealt with poverty growing up in a religious house, they were challenging. but I always give credit to the fact that I still didn't have a hard time and when it's all saying done. Now, I think life is hard for all of us and we all go through pain and suffering. So the rules across life are we're all going to lose people we love. Bad things are going to happen every now and then. We all have to pay our taxes. And at the end, like I said, we all die.

So that's the through line for all of us. And we're all trying to get through this together. That's how I see the world. I also understand that I'm not having to be. having the same experience. So I recognize that and I always appreciate that someone else is having an experience that I don't know what that feels like. But I'm always interested because I feel deeply for people. I just feel like I wonder what that's like. I always ask myself that question. I wonder what that's like. I think as a straight white man, just to cover your bases, just apologize every 10 minutes on the pod. Just look right at the camera and say, sorry, and keep going. I'm sorry. And cover your bases. Because I mean, I get that. I mean, I might be gay or whatever,

but like I'm a rich famous dry queen who's family does not have a problem with them being gay. You know, like even younger, I was still a very fair-skinned person who was cisgender. Like so often drag queens get lumped in with the experience of, I can't speak on the experience of trans women, for example. So I actually want to hear about that, but I will say this, just to point out a difference. If I'm on my way to work and I'm late and I'm running through my life, I don't have to deal with the possible. that someone's going to confront me about me being myself, even in my all black and my tattoos, whatever. Very rarely am I going to come up against friction trying to get where I'm going. And metaphorically speaking and physically speaking, if you're ready for work and you're

on your way and you're going to meet more friction than I am in any given place, right? There may be places that it will be different. It'll be less, right? Hence, we're in L.L. it's probably a little bit more user-friendly, right? But if you were working in Minneapolis or Charleston, South Carolina, and you're late for work and you're going to your gig and you're trying to blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're likely going to meet more friction than I am. Right. And that's just a fact.

Yeah, I mean, lucky for me, now it's like I'm at the hotel and drag. I get worried about walking through a hotel lobby and drag. Right. I get worried. But the fact you've got to think about that is what I'm saying is, Like you're even thinking, how am I going to move? Right. Like at least sometimes.

We definitely are like, all right, if I'm getting ready in the hotel room, because I like to get me in the hotel room, I'm like, let's spend the least amount of time through this lobby into the car. Right. And least amount of time from the car. Just because I like to eliminate the feeling of unsafety. And honestly,

the world's getting more progressive in some ways. But I don't think I speak for, I think I speak for all drag queens that I say, I feel less safe now than I used to. I feel more like as a famous drag queen. somebody's waiting to make an example out of me. Yeah, yeah. Someone's going to bring a weapon to my show or like attack me.

I think about that a lot. But of course, like I said, you and all black with tattoos, people are just like, look at that young barista. Look at that person's going to the Apple store. That guy. Yeah. Oh, he's wild. Yeah, he's going to take a reception shift at the tattoo shop.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, other than people recognize your face. Are you a tattoo artist? That's what I get all the time. I know. Have you ever thought about it? No. Do you do visual art at all?

I love tattoos. I love tattoo artists. I host a tattoo tattoo competition Inkmaster. It's great. I'm not a visual artist. Benjis.

My brother is a very good visual artist. He paints. But that's why he was more... But it's way more accepted and people are just like, oh, they're a wild guy. You know what I mean? Like, that's it.

Besides, it's the nature of the tattoo. Yeah. If you have that some tattoos, let's just say, make me a little more nervous than others. Well, I don't have like, fuck you tattooed on my head. Right.

Or like, just a casual, you know, a casual, let's just say, if somebody has a rainbow tattoo, I'm like, they're fine. Yeah. If somebody has a Confederate flag tattoo, I might be, you know, but in LA, even, I don't take Uber's as much anymore. I'll take the Uber X-Ls, but the cab drivers and the Uber drivers love drag queens. Yeah.

So that's sort of unwelcome attention usually. Right. I don't know what it is about cab drivers and Uber drivers. They love the drag queens. And I'm just trying to get to work. So, you know. But so for me, the conversation about that is, is good because I actually think that most people, a majority of people, don't want you to feel that way.

And it's always those idiots. It's the, it's the psychopaths, right, that ruin it for everyone. But the fact that you even have to think that way is what I'm saying is like, I don't ever think about that. I don't know what that feels like. But when I hear you say it, it strikes me. That's why I like talking about it, because everyone lives. listening, people in the world need to hear it so that they understand like, no one should

feel that way. No one should feel that way. And it's the same way I feel about, uh, anyone that is, that is having to think and plan around how they move through the world so that they feel safe is, it strikes me as not okay. So I'm gonna make. So yeah, And, like my music, my my hair can be

able to be a bit of my rhythm. For so Potion 9 of Sebastian Professional has all

what my my little protection against the encrespaid 99% less

of rotura and putas abjurtas under control. New Potion 9 of Sebastian

Professional the secret professional of who who don't do things

things, but of who they're not the part of your

brain thinks about it again I'm a a white person. I'm not trans. I do not have the worst like most struggles. I totally understand that. I totally get that. But even today coming to this, I was like, well, part of why I did this today is because I thought I would get to talk in a wig in front of maybe people who've never seen or heard of me before. Certainly. And then I thought, well, a lot of people probably listen to you that probably I might be the only drag queen or gay person they hear from all year.

It might be. What am I going to wear and how are I going to look in a way that doesn't completely upset them off? the bat. So I was like, I'm going to cover my shoulders. I'm going to wear sequins. This outfit, I was like, I'm going to wear what I would think is a pretty safe drag queen outfit. Not like, you know, nipples out or like, you know, not too crazy. Because I do always feel as trixie, I'm accidentally a representative of like gay people. No doubt you are. And I never wanted that because my God, am I not a role model other than getting perfect grades, you know, like I'm not a role model, but I always think not only my safety, but also when I accidentally represent myself as a drag queen or a gay person to someone, maybe for the whole year, because they don't see another gay person or

the drag queen, how am I going to make sure that I not make them like me, but represent myself, like surprise them into thinking, wow, that person's a human being. Yes. You know, most drag queens, now there's a part of us, we are all party animal sex maniacs. Right. But, you know, I also do my taxes. But a lot of people are party animals, sex maniacs. And I think drag queens are just more upfront about it. Drag queens tend to wear it better. A lot of people hide. A lot of people are twisted up sex fiends. And I don't even have a problem with them. As long as they're not hurting anyone, go live your best life. But they're not as upfront about it as let's say a drag queen or I just think there's something about that that's honest.

And I think that like we're all taught to kind of be dishonest. We're taught to be perfect and present ourselves as like say the right things and do the right things to whichever group we're trying to like whoever out there we're trying to impress or like us. And I think there's a lot of, like I said before, it's just a lot of freedom. And there's a lot. I just think. But you're also, it also comes with having to think about going to the host. to a lobby and how to which street am I driving down and which how long is the walk to that place and thinking about that is a thing totally you don't have to be traumatized to do drag but it helps

right trauma helps yeah it helps a little bit i mean i honestly like the same way as i go through life my expectation that a straight man or a religious person is going to automatically have a problem with me has lessened so much yeah whereas when i was younger doing drag those would be the people I would be, I would be certain that they're going to have a problem with me. Right. But at the same time. Not scared of them, but you were the most like, okay, there's going to be a problem here probably. So I just got to. Right. Or like 90% of their brain power is going to be dedicated to being uncomfortable around me. Right. But I also live for that shit. Yeah. You know, when you're at a drag show, like back in the day when I hosted like brunches and bingo and

stuff, you'd walk around with your little microphone. You'd identify the friend who came as a plus one who's really uncomfortable. And that's who's getting fucked with today. So in some ways in drag, you're like, you're looking for that in to like purposely turn the static on on the radio and that person's life a little bit and just not hurt them or embarrass them, but like disrupt them a little bit. Yeah, yeah. It's disruptive. Disrupt them. And they go home and they laughed at a couple of your jokes and they were uncomfortable. And you were part of them leaving their comfort zone for one night and expanding their ability to me.

Yeah, that's good. Other than making money and getting drunk, like that part of it was like, drugs. It was like, I really went out there and made fun of that fucking person to their pace. Yeah. And loved it. Yeah. And you and you laughed together. Yes. And like razzing them because I can tell they're uncomfortable is what makes them comfortable. Comfortable. Right. Suddenly they're seated for the show. Yeah. Because that's what it's the truth. But is, is there anything that you're uncomfortable with? Animatronics. Okay. I just think there's something wrong there. I think there's, I just saw this TikTok. I just saw this TikTok that was like,

all right, listen to this. Did you know a man fall into this ride with the jaws animatronic and the water? 1990 Orlando. This guy fell into the water at the Jaws ride at Universal. That specifically is the most horrible thing I could think of. Did he live? I don't know. Okay. So something about an animatronic shark head under the water waiting to fake go like there's something I don't even I if I if I you didn't like chucky cheese well I think that's my root I had my fifth birthday at chucky cheese the band the body keeps the score by the way I my fifth birthday at chucky cheese and I looked under the curtain and it occurred to me that when they're not singing they're sitting there in the dark waiting like red glowy eyes it's something like that just does not work for me yeah and then when I was maybe 20 in college I was I was maybe 20 in college I

I went to Rainforest Cafe. Oh, yeah. And nobody had told me what happens. The restaurant gets dark. Fake rain happens. And the animatronic gorilla starts screaming. We're getting out of here. We're not coming back.

Kids are all afraid of animatronics. There's just something really wrong there. But, you know, when I go to Disney and I do like pirates, that's fine. Jovial music. It's a small world. But something about animal animatronics, I don't like that. I don't like that. It's almost like they are a lot.

but they're not telling you. Yeah, and their job is to pretend to be real. Yeah. I don't like that. I don't like that. It is weird. People are afraid of chat GPT. I'm like, no, you should be afraid of that jaw shark, you know, because he's coming.

And he was the beginning of all of it. Yeah. Do you have any irrational fears like that? Because I know it's irrational. I know that Jaws ride is wired into the water. That's a good question. Irrational fears. What would I put in that category?

Um, getting hepatitis from a tattoo. No, no fear about that. I'm always weirdly, randomly afraid that I'm allergic to something and I've never been allergic to anything in my life. So like, if you have like a scratchy throat, you're like, it's the peanuts I head on the plane. No, it's more like I don't eat on airplanes because if I eat and I'm in the air, I get anxiety about what if I was allergic to something in the food? And I've had like panic attacks after eating on an airplane because I'm like, is my throat

closing. I'd be like to Nicole, I'd be like, does it look like my tongue swollen? She's like, honey, calm down. Yeah. Is she helpful or is she like, yeah, you're totally dying? She tries to be helpful. She cannot feel my fear.

So when I have, it used to happen more. Now it doesn't happen as much because thank God I've worked on a lot of therapy. You have. Yeah. Okay, because I feel like in L.A. You either have to get into therapy or get into Zodiac. Yeah. So I did.

Pick your poison. So I did therapy. I believe that we are living, breathing organisms that grow. And I think that all of our habits are formed from our experiences early in life. So everything that we have started somewhere. Maybe that's where your allergy fear came from. Do you think when you were a kid, you saw someone having an allergic reaction or something? Maybe like someone, you know, one time I was a kid, I've actually never told this story.

I almost choked to death on pizza cheese. See, this is what I'm saying. Pizza cheese? Yeah, it was like really stringy and it wouldn't break. Micerella. Like the cheese on the pizza. Yeah. And I couldn't breathe and it was like going down my throat, but I couldn't like, it was too long.

Do you think it's just called pizza cheese? The pizza cheese is mozzarella. The mozzarella. Yeah. Right. So the kind of cheese it is. You get your cheddar, your pepper jack. Yeah, the mozzarella is on pizza.

So I call it pizza cheese. So the cheese and then I started to choke and I couldn't breathe. Now, was I going to die? I don't know. But my brother got up and he, like, hit me in the back. And I, like, it came out after a minute. And it was so terrifying. Right.

So I no longer eat hot pizza, like super hot pizza. I wait for it to calm down. And I take a paper towel and I blot the pizza oil off. Wow. So that it'll break up more when I chew it. Safety first. And I've always done that. You're like, why do you blot your pizza down with paper towel?

And I'm like, because of the oil trauma. Yeah, that's what I should say. Yeah, trauma. Oh, because the oil less fat. Well, I'm like, no, trauma. Do you ever read self-help books? Sometimes. I started reading self-help books last year about like family dynamics or like self-trauma and stuff.

And it makes me so uppity. Yeah. And I think I know everything. Yeah. And I am at any moment this close to turning to someone and going like, you know it's about trauma. Yeah. Because,

well, it's all trauma. It is, I mean, it is all trauma. We all have our little nicks and scars and our little idiosyncratic things about us because of our childhood. Yeah. People are like,

oh, you just do drag because you were molested. I'm like, maybe. I do think that we make the art we make as a function of healing and drag is an art. Of course. So there's something to healing in what we do. But then there's also something of us becoming our fully realized self.

So there's more than just healing. It's not just therapy that I make music, but there's a therapeutic value to it that has helped me work out a bunch of stuff before I got to therapy. And, you know, music is such an important part of all of our development, artistically and stylistically and all those things. So I really, but I can tell your musical, obviously you do music. Are you doing any more music? Yeah, right now I'm focusing on my.

touring party saloping disco because i during covid fell in love with dj like i love disco and love house music it's fun to dj it is fun and i started learning ableton and i started remixing and i love remixing tracks so that's to me that's still in the basket of music it is i love playing my guitar and singing and telling jokes i mean i always felt really at home playing my guitar and telling jokes and like kind of doing piano bar with my guitar yeah i love building tracks and rebuilding tracks and remixing and and then DJing when you're when you get to be at the party because for me I DJed for a long time you did I did what I liked about it was I actually did want to go to a party but I didn't want to be in the party per se like it's hard for me to be in the crowd and feel like fully

comfortable so DJing I got to like not only play music I like so I'm enjoying it the whole time yeah and watching people have fun party together I love that yeah and there's also this you shaped thing of equipment that keeps people from you have a bubble yeah and you get to be social on your own terms yeah whenever i want to go out i call the gay bars here and go can i DJ tonight there you go and then i get to be at the club smart smart and i get to be separated because i'm not single and i don't drink right so what am i going to do at the club right stare at the wall talk about the upholstery like what are we doing yeah so i love to DJ because i get to go out on my own terms and again you get the ox cable and you know what i thought about this the other night i went to a friend's party

a birthday party he was having for his girlfriend. And I went alone because no one else could go. And it was probably all like 20 something, like 27 year olds or something. Probably the oldest person was 30, right? And I'm 45 and I was like, what am I going to do? And I looked over at the DJ booth and I thought, I wish I was DJing because it's fun to be in the atmosphere, but I'm way more comfortable doing something like playing music and watching everyone. and have a good time when you drop a song that everyone likes or whatever. Yeah. And I found myself wishing I was DJing that party because I was like, oh, I'm alone.

I don't know what to do. I'm also happier in these environments when my hands have something to do. Yeah. You don't get anxious. You have a job. Yeah. And I go home with like 100 bucks or something, whatever. Whatever.

You know, I really love it. And I love, you get to communicate with the audience. Yep. Without talking. Through music you love. Yes. Yeah. And you get to feel the vibe.

And, I mean, you really make or break a party. Your responsibility is pretty heavy. Yeah. When you are booked to DJ a party, you really decide what night they have. And you've got to set the mood and you got to keep it going all night. Yeah. And I love playing my guitar and stuff, but I always describe it as it's like using other people's songs as like chords and phrases. It's like you're building one massive piece out of other people's chunks.

Yeah. It's like collage. Yeah. I love it. I bet you're good at it. I'm okay. Well, you do it for a living. I'm great.

Come see Salt Pink Disco. this June instead of doing a bunch of people's prides, I'm just traveling with my party during pride. Awesome. Because why let the pride, you know, I am the pride. Yeah, let the pride dictate the pride. I am the pride. Yeah, that's right. So whatever.

Yeah. I do feel like when I started drag, it's been pride for 16 years. Right. Yeah. I was going to say that. It's like literally pride night anywhere you go. Everywhere. Yeah.

It's gay people screaming. It's great. You know, but come see. You can get your tickets at trixymotel.com. So trixymotel.com. Yep. And then where could everybody that's listening to? that maybe maybe they haven't heard of you or maybe they haven't come to your stuff,

where can they follow you? Twitter? I'm at everything. TikTok. At Trixie. At Trixie. Yeah. Or at Trixie, Mattel.

And at this point, between the YouTube channel and the pods, if you've avoided me on the internet this long, it's been intentional. So at this point, like, if you haven't seen me, you don't want to. Right. Because the way the algorithms work, if you watch one of my videos, I will haunt your homepage for the rest of your life. Because if you watch a few of my videos, YouTube's like, oh so you like cross-dressers don't you do you so like I will haunt you forever it's a good

haunt thank you of course trixie I appreciate it pound it yeah I hope you enjoyed today's episode of artist friendly if you really liked it you can follow like subscribe to the show anywhere you listen to podcasts Spotify Apple Amazon we appreciate your support and we'll see you next time