Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - Zeph

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

Born Zephani Jong, the 23-year-old rising talent who creates confessional, lo-fi DIY pop talks about her humble beginnings in Maryland before relocating to LA, her various artforms as an illustrator and recording artist, being upfront about anxiety, and more. The episode drops just before Zeph is set to release new music, with her single "like everyone else" arriving March 10. ------- Listen to their Artist Friendly conversation on ⁠⁠Spotify.⁠ ------- Follow Artist Friendly! IG: @artist.friendly TikTok: @artist.friendly YouTube: youtube.com/@artist.friendly ------- Host: Joel Madden, @joelmadden Executive Producers: Joel Madden, Benji Madden, Jillian King Producers: Josh Madden, Joey Simmrin, Janice Leary Visual Producer/Editor: Ryan Schaefer Audio Producer/Composer: Nick Gray Music/Theme Composer: Nick Gray Cover Art/Design: Ryan Schaefer Additional Contributors: Anna Zanes, Neville Hardman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, what's up? It's Joel Madden, and this is artist-friendly. And on today's episode, I'm talking to the one and only Zeph. Let's get into it. Hi, Zep. Hello. How's it going? It's good.

Okay. Okay, so I don't even know where to start. Is this your first interview? No, I went on Dwayne's podcast. Okay. This is my second podcast. Actually, third podcast. Podcast.

Podcasts. And then what about interviews? What counts as an interview? Like digital online. Oh, no. I've done a bunch of those now. How do you like those? See, when they ask me to like type up my answers, I sound so intelligent, so put together.

But then when they like call and then ask in real time, it's so bad. Because I remember reading one time an article that they wrote from the phone interview. And I did not sound coherent at all. Sometimes I wouldn't even answer the question. But I didn't get diagnosed with ADHD, so that kind of makes sense. You did get diagnosed? When? Recently.

Okay. Did you go to a... I actually have therapy after this. Oh, great. He's a therapist and a psychiatrist, so he does both. Oh, that's really a one-stop shop. It's great. I'm on meds now.

Okay, so you're on meds now. Yes, which I just realized I forgot to take, but it's fine. That's okay. When missing a day here or there is okay. Okay. So we'll start present and then we'll go to past because I have a lot of questions about I've kind of been able to ride along with you so far from your journey from when we met for anyone listening that doesn't know. Like 2019. We met in 2019. Rrandomly, I found your music online. Yes, on Instagram, I remember. Yeah, on Instagram. I don't know how I found it, but I found it. And then I think maybe what I noticed first.

was you used to do these drawings. Yeah. And then incredible drawings. And then you had like music underneath a video that you made, like you would cut together these like anime style videos, really incredible like little videos that you would put together. And you had these like 30, 40 second songs. It was crazy. It was like so good.

And I was like, what is this? Who is this? are they, like, is this an artist? Is it? And then I reached out to you. And I was like, what's, what's the deal? And then we met up. Because you were in Maryland. I was in Maryland visiting family. Both from Maryland. We're both from Maryland. You were, you were in, uh, and you were like before or after work. Yeah, I was a waitress. And you and your friend came to Starbucks. And we met. And I was like, do you, are you? I was so, like, skeptical. I was like, what's going on?

like, are you, your music's incredible. Do you want to make music for a living? Like, basically. I was like, is this what you want to do? And you're like, I think so. Basically, you're like, yeah. Art burnout. And I was like, music's what I like doing now. I'd much rather be a musician than a waitress. And then you came and met everybody at MDDN. All the actual real people, like, I'm not a real person. Like, these people are. are like career people. They work in the music industry. They're like incredibly smart, hardworking people.

They all loved you. Even though I cried in the bath there for three hours. That's another story that we'll get to. So that's one story we have to tell. But so this whole, so from I find your music, I think it's incredible. I reach out. I'm in Maryland. We meet up at Starbucks.

And then you fly out to L.A. you meet everyone at MDDN. What was that process like for you? And what did that feel like? And what did you think? Well, it was really weird because I was never expecting to do music for 11 because I thought I was going to go to school for art or like whatever. But I ended up just going to college, like community college for a year, dropped out

and started working as a waitress. So I was never expecting like anything to come from my music. And then it was weird because I got kind of like thrown into, not at the, thrown into it, but like, I had never experienced any of like the music industry before, so it was really interesting. It was kind of overwhelming. Yeah. But I was like, this is cool.

My parents were kind of confused about like what I was doing, but they're like, you're not doing anything else, so you might as well. That's great. Yeah, it was, it still doesn't feel real. Like, I think I have like a bad imposter syndrome. Like, I don't feel like a real musician. And I'd still confuse why, like, people are rooting for me or, like, stuff for me. Like I was doing, I shot a music video recently and I was like, why are all these

people here for me? Like I'm not, I don't, I don't do enough to like, feel like warrant this much going on. I don't know. I understand that feeling, but I will say sitting on the other side, you have four million people a month just on Spotify listening to your music. And that's with like no it's not like you had like a radio song or anything like I'm telling you like that's organic that is actually just people that discovered new music and love it that's you're to me like that's the kind of artist you are I'm a fan of all your songs from the minute I heard your music and along the way as you've released now flash forward to today you're putting out record of a big following and you're still kind of like in my mind you're still still

just getting started in my opinion like you're still just like I'm growing into like the musician title doesn't feel real yet it's real like I know that I'm like a musician but it's like the singing part that's like weird to me right it's different because I hadn't I didn't start singing until 2018 so I still feel like being called as like singer I'm like I feel like I'm not qualified because I started like playing piano first and then producing and writing and then like way later I started singing Right. So think about this. I'll stop you there just to like point it out because I understand when not feeling like real. I used to feel that way too until I realized like all the things that I do. I have to point it out for you because you actually do more than me. Look, you write, you produce, you record, you perform. Perform. Really? You've performed.

It was not good. Yeah, but you perform. I'm just saying you sing, you play, you write, you produce, you mix. No. Essentially you mix. You do the first mix and then you may hand it over to someone who maybe you like their mixes better, but you mix. So I'm just saying from a perspective of like ability, there are tons of artists out there

that just sing. They don't even write their own stuff. There's artists that just write, they can't sing. There's artists that just play really well, but they can't sing. well, but they can't write. There's plenty of them that are great, too. There's like plenty of great guitar players who aren't good writers. But they write good guitar parts and they play

or they play good guitar parts. There's really good producers out there who just produced the shit out of a record but can't write and can't perform. So there's, it's interesting to me like this quiet kind of shy, what I could perceive as shy, but like maybe it's a quiet thoughtfulness, right? That person who I met in Maryland who was working as a waitress, right?

Nothing against that, but certainly doesn't feel like that was your ultimate dream. My ultimate dream of being a waitress. Yeah, like I'm not saying a waitress isn't a bad, like it's a great job. It was not my dream. I waited tables. It was very good at it, I have to say. I was a very, very good waiter. I took a lot of pride in doing a good job.

But here's this person, also incredible illustrator, and let's like go even further. Great copywriter. What's a copywriter? Your tweets. Oh, no. Your Instagram captions and your tweets. Like you could actually be like a comedy, right? Like maybe it's not comedy to you, but like it's really funny.

I've been called a Twitter comedian. Yeah, it's really funny. It makes me laugh out loud. So I'm just wondering from going from when we met in Maryland in your waiting tables to now, you live in Los Angeles, you make art, and you live your life. It's pretty sick. It's pretty sick. It's pretty epic.

It is pretty epic. Yeah, I remember being like 16 and being like, oh, I wish I could live in L.A., but it's like so expensive and like, what would I even do there? But now I'm like, oh, it's crazy. I actually do live here. and actually do do something I like for living, which is really cool.

Never thought I'd get here. So I don't even like care about like getting like famous or whatever. I'm just like I'm glad I made it here. I can tell though that you don't care about fame. It's scary. But also like I feel like you're an artist. I feel like you're kind of in your head probably a lot just making things. Like I feel like when you open up and say something,

it's even your tweets as funny as they are. They're like kind of artistic and they're, they're a lot like your lyrics. Like your lyrics have a lot of that. Like, it's like getting a little. The one-liners. Yeah. And they're clever. But then they're also kind of like, like.

Definitely more unhinged than my music. But it's important because it all works together. It does. Because people tell me they're like, oh, I found your Twitter. And I think it's funny. So I started listening to your music and I really like it. Or on the rare occasions, they're really like, oh, I found your music. music came to your Twitter, was not expecting this. And I was like, sorry. But it works both ways.

It's like a good like marketing but not marketing tactic. Just like building my little cinematic universe. What do you care about the most? Do you music? Yeah, music or like what, about your music or about what you do? Like, what do you care about the most? Is it making your music? Is it just getting it off your chest? Is it? Is it just getting it off your chest? Is it. it like what is it that like that you care about that drives you to like do it um well the first part is i like use it as like coping mechanism and i'm like if i'm like going through something i'll like force myself like sit down and put it into a song and that like makes me feel better because like to get it all out in like a perfectly said way makes me feel so much better and then also

yeah right and it's like that's how i like communicate i guess it makes yeah because i can like like use the music part also with the lyrics to like convey how I'm feeling and also it makes me feel better because I'm like being productive with my thoughts so I'm like if I'm sad I'm not just moping I'm actually like doing something and then other people find it like helpful or whatever but then now that I'm like in the music industry what I've realized is that like it's really important to me is like staying true to like my vision and like what I want to share and what I want my like how I want my like art and music to come across because like over like the over time I've realized I'm like well if something if I can't have something like a music video or like a photo shoot

or like an album art if I can't have exactly what I think would be best for my music then I just don't want to do it at all because like what's the point because I don't want to be um what's the word like not misrepresented like that because that's what people everyone sees that they're going to see that and be like oh you want wanted this you like this. thing. I'm like, no, that's not how I feel at all. I'm like, yes, it is, but it's like off. I don't know. I just want people to like know me. I feel like I'm overprotective about my, like, my feelings and like my like vision and stuff. I actually talking about that's really cool because it's early enough in your career where you have to work these things out so that you

know how you do something and you won't compromise how you do it. And I think that's important. There are things, though, that, like, I get, I do have to compromise, like, do to, like, budget stuff or, like, just like, I don't know. But I do try to have an open mind because I'm like, I don't know everything and maybe someone else's idea is better than mine. But, like, then again, it is also just still, if I like it, if I think it, like, relates to my music or shows my, like, if it, like, has, if it contributes to my, like, creative vision, then I like it. But if it's like something completely off that I like don't agree with at all and I'm like, I don't do that. I also think that like you, because you're such a good illustrator, you actually understand execution of something when you're concepting it. So like if you come up with an idea, you know if you could execute it. I have this idea, but I know it'll probably cost $200,000 to do it.

You know that that's for later. You're like, okay, I could guarantee you. I'll bank that idea. You process it like, okay, because you're an illustrator, I think you, and. and a producer and a writer. I think you understand the process enough that, like, you already know if you could execute it or not. And I think the execution is always going to have to come from at least you telling people how. Because I don't think that when it comes to visionary people, they'll never see themselves as visionaries, but they'll always have visions.

Right? So they'll always feel like imposters. Yeah, yeah. It's normal. but you're always going to have a vision and you're always going to want to do something a specific way because your take on things is super cool. But you're never going to think it is or you're never like I read your tweets. Like I see where you're coming from and it's like very artistic.

It's the artist experience that's like they're never, I always notice this through line with like really great artists. And I swear to you and I told you this from the beginning and I've always said this. You're an incredible artist. I think you write incredible music, and I'm always floored at how you do it by yourself. Most people need a group. They need three, four, five partners. Go look at any pop song on the charts today that are big, right? And look at how many writers are on them.

80% of them, I guarantee you there's more than four writers. And then there's a producer and there's a big, it's a big endeavor. I'm just telling you, like, it doesn't matter how many people know about your music. When they discover it, that's why you continue. It just grows every month. You get more and more listeners because it is really good. It's just, it's super special. But that's probably the hardest part is dealing with all that creativity bottled up in your head.

And it comes out in all different ways. It's like, I mean, I think, I know you've shared that you deal with anxiety and that you deal with, you know, I think the ADD anxiety, all of that is wrapped up in this like kind of brain that I have, you have, we all have different versions of it. Like the artistic brain. We have a very, I think a low tolerance for boredom. Boredom kills us and it makes us feel anxious and it makes us, it just, it's devastating. like it just makes us really uncomfortable and edgy. And I think you're you're probably always creating, always thinking of things. Not really. But in your head.

In my head, yeah. But like sometimes I'll have like episodes where I'm just like depressed. I don't want to do anything. But yeah. But it also contributes to like, because then I have stuff to write about because I write about like mental health stuff a lot. Someone, the funniest thing I think that I saw was someone told me that they didn't know how to explain to their therapist.

like how they were feeling. So they showed their therapist a bunch of my songs. And then they got prescribed mood stabilizers. Wow. That's awesome. I was like, yeah, everyone tells me my music is like BPD coded. I'm like, yeah, makes sense. Do you want to talk about the time, the first time you ever came to MDDN?

Speaking of anxiety. To work in the studio. Oh, God. So the story, I'll tell it quickly. You came to MDDN the first time to, you know, work in the studio and really just meet everyone and see if this was even a vibe, you know, you end up in the bathroom. So we were supposed to do a studio session and I got overwhelmed because I was like, I can't sing from other people.

Right. I did all this myself. Like you said, all I do want music myself. Yeah. And I was supposed to be working with like producer and I was like, I can't do this. Can't do it. And also I was just overwhelmed because it was like my first time in L.A. really. Yeah, it's a big deal.

And then I was like here for like music stuff. I was also on birth control at the time, which was like messing with my hormones. I was crazy. Yeah. So definitely, looking back on it, I was like, yeah, though, I would not cry in the bathroom for three hours today because I'm fine now. But it's a good story. It is a good story. Oh, and then Poppy walked in on me crying in the bathroom like two times.

What did she say? She didn't say anything. I was just embarrassed. Oh, okay. She also recommended me Thai food, the Thai food restaurant, but I don't remember what it's called. She's cool. She's really cool. She's really nice.

But also intimidating, like, you're here and then Poppy comes in and you're like, oh, it's Poppy. was like so embarrassing. No, I, they're going to hate me now. No, I actually, it's one of my favorite stories because you were real. You were just like being you. And I knew that like, I just think that like you are unapologetically for better or for worse, whatever. Like you're this per, like, like you're just you.

And you just say stuff on like you're my favorite person to follow on Twitter. If, if you're everyone listening, if you're, if you're, everyone listening, if you. Do you want to follow Zeph on Twitter? No. Follow me on Spotify first. It's at Zeph. Z-E-P-H. No, it's not.

Oh. It's my whole name. Zephny-J-N-J-O-N-G. Z-E-P-H-E-N-G. Hatsuni-Mitsky. I think there is someone with the account that's just Zeph, but they don't use it. So I'm like, I want that. I want that little.

We've got to try and get it. We've got to tell Twitter to get it. And Instagram too with this guy His name is like Joe I'm looking at your tweets right now No I let him cook and I had a life-threatening Allergic reaction

I'm announcing that I'm announcing something soon I'm being waterboarded right now No it's You don't like to hear him back I don't like to get it out To me okay like it again Do you listen to your music? You listen to your music?

Sometimes I check if it's still good But like I To meet like four million people I can't even like I don't even know what that means. So, like, when I went on tour with water parks, when I, like, people came up to me, I was like, oh, my God, they're real.

They're, like, actual people. Real people. Yeah. So for Twitter, same thing. I don't see. I don't like, they're, like, not real people to me. Right. Tune to the void.

Yeah. And then, like, tell me that they love my Twitter. I'm like, oh, my God, I forget. You see it. You actually see it. I don't know. I think that at the, I think that, like, in another year or two, you need to, like, make a book of all your tweets.

because there really are really good stuff in there and they're yours. A book? Instead of like a poetry book like other artists. Yeah, like instead of a poetry book, it's a book of your Twitter timeline. But it is still like poetry kind of. I just put my tweets in like the poetry format. Make it look really artsy, but it's like so stupid. Here's what you do.

You take the Shell Silverstein thought. I love Shell Silverstein. Right. You know what I realized? He's one of my biggest song. writing inspirations, which is like funny to think about. I kind of feel that. You know what I mean?

I kind of felt that. It's a little goofy, like the word play. But there's like good, it's, it's kind of quirky or something, but like it's real. There's something in there that we all relate to. Like none of us will admit when we're having anxiety, but you will. That is interesting to me because like we all have, especially artists, we have anxiety. Trust me when I say I dealt with anxiety for the first. first half of my life and then I had to work through and get to the other side of it. And I did.

And it's anyone out there listening that has anxiety that hasn't maybe reached the subject with anyone or maybe they haven't gotten into the work of it. Like it is something that you can work on. And you can. Yeah. Therapy and my meds definitely help so much. Like can you tell I'm so much calmer now than like before like when you first met me? Yes. I feel kind of slowly getting put together. And I think you've grown in experience, you've grown in age, you've grown in, I think,

understanding, right? And then you've also worked. You've worked on yourself. You've gotten this program together. I think it's all of it together, right? I think that like if someone's going to therapy and they're also getting maybe their prescribed medication, Maybe they doing other things, micro dosing or doing all whatever anyone's method of like, how am I going to get to like a growth? How am I going to grow?

There's a, you know, maybe they're doing a lot of work on themselves. Like they're reading. Character development. Yeah. That's the thing with you is like you never quit music. You never stopped. And when I, that first day when you had when you came in here and it was and you went into the bathroom and you were in there for a few hours. A few hours.

I was like, first of all, I was like, obviously checked on you a few times and I was like making sure, you know, I was like, are you cool? You can stay in there as long as you want. All good. Just want to make sure you're okay. And if you're okay and you just need to be in there. You know what I mean? Like I was like, cool.

Just as long as you're okay and you were like, I'm good. I just need. You were just like, I just need to stay in here. And I was like, okay. And then you left. and then I remember you like texted me and I was like whatever it's cool just come back whenever

don't worry about it's a process and then like you came back and then you just kept going and here you are today and you're making your music and you're building this like world out for yourself that I'm because I don't look at you as like

the traditional artist I think that you're more than just any one kind of artist. And I think you're going to do amazing art. And I think it's going to be music. But I also think it's going to be visual. I think it's going to be things you create. So I'm just like waiting and watching and like it's all happening.

And I just kind of go like, crazy to me that like it all comes from your head. Got a lot going up in there. But it all makes sense. And so when you get into like things like anxiety, I'm like, makes sense. Highly creative. Yeah.

My therapist was like a lot of creative people have ADHD because their thought processes like, I said when most people have a train of thought, I have bumper cars. So it's like all over the place and it's like that's where a lot of like random inspiration comes from. Like your like imagination because it's like all over the place. Like that makes sense.

Shout out ADHD, I guess. Yeah. ADHD. Makes it very hard to get something out. This episode. I remember anything. This episode of a podcast.

Spotted by ADHD. is sponsored by ADHD and anxiety. And borderline. Yeah, exactly. And bipolar. Exactly. That's, that's, how, do you feel like there's a lot of people out there that relate to your music because you're so open about your experience?

And most people aren't like, even me. I'm pretty open, but I'm not that open. A lot of people tell me that, okay, because I use that as a coping mechanism, I had to like dig deep into myself and like find like the root of the problem. Like why am I so upset? And like how do I explain all the facets of that and like condensed as possible, like concisely? And people tell me that my songs like put into words their feelings that they never knew

how to explain or even like feelings that they didn't know they had. Because that's my favorite thing to do because I feel like there are so many musicians. So many people write about the same things. And I try. I do too. But like, my favorite thing is to write about, like, the in-between feelings that, like, people forget about. So a lot of people write, like, love songs, right? But, like, the one that's coming out is about, like...

What's it called? Like everyone else. Okay. It's about not necessarily, like, romantic stuff, but it's, like, wanting to be extra special to someone. Like, you want to be each other's, like, number one, like, a dynamic duo type thing. Right. Whether that be romantic or platonic or like almost there. I don't know.

Because that's like a thing that would happen to me a lot in high school. Like I didn't want to date anybody, but I was like, I want you specifically to be like mine, but in a platonic way. Do you know what I mean? Right. So I feel like nobody writes about like that kind of stuff or like, I don't know. There's a couple. Are you big on relationships? What do you mean big on relationships?

Like do you always need to be in a relationship? Do you feel like a need to be in a relationship? I do not feel a need. For a long time, I was very emotionally unavailable, which is why the second half of the album is like about all that. I'm being like, oh, actually don't like you. Because I was like, oh, I don't care. But it just happens when it happens.

Right. I don't plan on. I'm not like pursuing a relationship, but it just happens. Right. Just kind of strikes you when it strikes you. Yeah. But that's not like I'm like, I need this all the time where I'm going to die. You're not the, what's that word?

The attention is nice. Yeah. I'm like, I could not. Like, for example, there was like a couple guys that were like trying to like be like, oh, I wouldn't need to be like my girlfriend. I'm like, no. Like we can like hang out and stuff. But no, don't put that label on me.

Wow. That's, that's, yeah, I agree with you. Until you know and then you'll know when you know. At least I was honest and up front. I feel like great relationships. start that way. I've been married for 12 years, but with my wife for 16 years. And we didn't start off with like an expectation of like the label of the relationship. You just like see where it goes. Kind of. Yeah. Like no, we we definitely like had we had feelings for each other and and we were all

about each other. But the label of the relationship wasn't the main focus of like the relationship. And then it grew into this like really quickly, but also like. like over time, grew into this devoted relationship because that was my person. And that was my, you know, that was my partner. That's what I mean. The song, I was like, I want you to be my person. Yeah. Like that.

And it's like, and whatever happens after that may have, may or might not happen, but like. I think we get trained at a young age to label things because I think it's just like part of like how we're raised, you know, like that's just the way it is. But, like, relationships are a lot more real and a lot kind of more complicated and edgy. And life is more complicated than, like, labeling things. I just, I am also, like, kind of like, kind of likes to label things because I think it just makes it easy for me to, like, compartmentalize things to, like, digest. And also, like, for mental health, I think I was so hyper-fixated on getting diagnosed

because my family doesn't really, like, believe in, like, mental health. And they, like, never, they just kind of didn't take me seriously. So, like, on my own, I was like, I need to figure out what exactly is wrong with me because they don't care. So I was kind of overcompensating because I kind of felt like I guess I need to like prove to them that there was something wrong with me, which they're very much so. That you had a challenge that they weren't acknowledging. Yeah. So I like, I figured it out though, I guess. And also breaking it down like that made it easier to like focus on like what the problems were and how to fix them.

Or even just how to live with them. Yeah, exactly. Because I before, I didn't even know that I had anxiety. I just like felt stress all the time. I didn't either. Yeah, because I originally was going to go to therapy for like BPD, but then we, but then I was like, why do I feel crazy all the time? So then we talk, me and my psychiatrist, sex therapist talked a lot and he was like, yeah,

you have extremely bad anxiety. And I was like, oh, and just like, you're also bipolar. And I was like, I was not expecting that one at all. So I just, like, you feel relieved like to know, like, to know those things about yourself? Yeah. And then now I can like like pinpoint how to fix it or like how to work with it now. Yeah. Like like it's like having the camera like focus and it's like oh that's why.

Yeah. It's like a focusing lens. Yeah. And it's like I'm not just crazy. I'm like oh, I know it's because of this, this, this. It's clarity. Yeah. And at least you understand like when you're having an experience, you get there faster.

Like you're going through anxiety. Then you realize it. Yeah. I'm like, I'm anxious. I'm just freaking out for no reason. And then you can kind of like work backwards. Yeah, you do like the steps.

I wonder why I'm anxious. Yeah. My therapist is like you find the one, the little like base point of it. I'm like what exactly is making you so anxious right now? And then I'm like two and everything else out. And like even for me I found I found, you know, I struggled with anxiety and to be honest, I never really talked about it. But PTSD when I was younger, right?

some trauma and stuff. And then anxiety when I was, so in my 20s was figuring all that out. And it was really hard because I, until I went to therapy, I didn't know, like, what anxiety was. I didn't know what any of it was. It's like something's not right. Yeah. Why am I so stressed?

And you're like, it's not even, it's more than stress. It's anxiety. Yeah. You think you're going to die. Yeah. But when you get to the help, when you talk to someone that's professional and a good person, and obviously, like, you know. you work with someone good that you like.

Obviously, that really helps when you're, but then you suddenly become super clear and it actually does start to dial over time. How old are you? 23. Or do you not share your age? No, I just like forgot for a second. Okay. Because I'm going to be 24 in like two months.

It's a rude question sometimes. But so you're super young in your journey of like, how do I, like, how am I with this experience of like, okay. But here's what I'll tell you for. my experience, over time, it does dial down because you're more aware of it faster. You become, and then you can. My therapist said too. Even now, I'm like, to my wife, I'll be like, honey, I'm super anxious right now.

I don't know why. And she's like, you always get anxious when we travel or whatever. And I'm like, oh, yeah. And then like we, but we have a conversation that lightens the whole mood. And then it allows us all to go. Like figured out faster. And yeah. And then to just go through it and not.

It lets the air out because you, you know, your partner's aware. And then they're like, okay, you're always a little anxious when we do this. And you're like, oh, yeah, I am. And then everything's better because we're all just aware of it. And then it's so interesting how that works. But I do think that, like, you have to go and kind of work on it with someone who knows what they're, like, a professional. Yeah. And then you can learn how to like the why in the how.

Also, do you feel like people are the people that like your music that follow you on Twitter? Do you think they should go to therapy? No. Do you feel like you guys? Do you feel like you guys are kindred spirits? Do you feel like they share a lot of the experiences? Like they get it? Yeah, like they're sharing your experience.

Yeah. You feel like they deal with a lot of the same stuff you do. Oh, definitely. Because I've always been very open about. about like mental health stuff and they know that. So they feel like I'm like a safe space to like do that. So sometimes they feel a little too safe and they're like trauma dump in my in my DMs and I'm like I don't know how to help you but like hope you get better.

I don't know. Do you ever have to just leave some of them and not reply because it's too too crazy? I mean I don't really. I like to read my DMs but like I'm I have too much of like burnout too. I used to reply to a bunch of people. I'll reply like if it's like really nice or like funny or something. But like now I just use just read them and then I like don't say anything because I'm Like, I can't get a lot.

It's too, yeah, it's way too much. Right. My DMs look like World War III sometimes. I bet. I can imagine. Because you do screen, you do share some of them and it is pretty crazy. Like, I'm... Got a lot of really crazy, thirsty ones.

Yeah. But they're fun to... I know a lot of people, like, it's like a thing where, like, girls on the Internet are like, please don't do this. It's like really uncomfortable and weird. I just think it's funny. For me personally. Right.

I think it's entertaining. It doesn't trigger you like some people. Right. Because I know. I know that I'm like, oh, this is like not, I don't have to take this seriously. Yeah, this person's nuts. This person's nuts. Yeah.

So I just think it's funny. Right. Oh, I don't know. I feel like that's also a good thing for me is because like, I guess a lot of people see it as like maybe like an influencer just trying to do music. But I'm like, no. I think I'm glad that I kind of grew up on the internet first before music because it like taught me how to handle a lot of things. Right. Because now when people are mean to me on the internet, I just, I just ignore.

It doesn't mean anything. Yeah, if you, no, I mean, sometimes it like hurts a little bit, but I'm like, they literally don't know who I am. And if I don't respond, they're not going to get a reaction out of me and they're going to, like, give up. Stuff like that. Are people mean to you sometimes? Not anymore.

No, actually. I could not imagine someone being mean to you. You're the nicest person I've ever met. Back in 2018, I think it was a lot of, like, jealousy because that's when I started to, like, blow up for, like, my makeup and stuff. And a lot of, like, other people were like, I don't know. Oh, right. You do, you do makeup.

I totally forgot. No, but I wasn't even like posting like makeup. It was just like selfies and people got like, I don't know. When you, when you blow up like that, when you're also like on Twitter, I'll like mute a tweet because I know that it's going to like escape my target audience and like random people are going to come get mad for no reason. Like stuff like that. That would happen to me a lot when I was like on the internet early on. And then I didn't know how to handle it. Right.

Because I was like frustrated and made me upset. So I would like respond to all of it. And then they would give it more attention and like make it worse. So now I know like that's not how you handle that. And I also know how to like also handle like parasycial stuff. Because I've been on both sides now. Because like I started out like being like a huge like fan girl of people and like how to I would be kind of weird. And then I'm like, okay, now I know how to like talk to people without it being weird.

Right. But also have them talk to me and like a like joking like friendly way without without them thinking that they like know me personally. Like stuff like that. Like I figured it out. Like I think I feel like I have the internet pretty much like wrapped around my finger at this point. So I'm like really comfortable. Because I know a lot of people are like Twitter and Instagram like such a toxic place. I hate it.

I'm like, I'm having fun because I like got it. Yes. I see it with you as like I feel it's really weird. It's hard to explain. To me you live in this realm. Like you come to life online. Like it's interesting. You like plug in and you come to life.

You literally control what you do on the internet. Like you control it. You don't have to let it control you. It's just like fun. But it's somewhere in between like like, like, I. Like, if there was some process where you could, like, actually go into the internet interwebs and, like... Like, Tron. Yeah, like, Tron.

Shout out, daft. Like, I feel like you would do it. Like, I just... I would do it. I feel like you're... I feel like you're like this, like, you're the future kind of artist. It's so different from the old analog. I don't think I've done anything that, like,

revolutionary. But that's it is it doesn't have to be revolutionary. It just has to be art and it has to be like real art that someone thought of and made. It's not it's not contrived to be a thing to sell. It's not contrived to be a thing to get likes. It's literally like you're vomiting out your art and then we're all making sense of it. That's how I see it. It just so happens that you're really good at writing songs and making art.

And so when you vomit out art, it's better than when all these other people do it. And that's how I feel. And I'm telling you, I'm just telling you from my experience, I know what I know. And it's personal. So I know what I like. I see yourself and I'm like, that's fucking tight. That's different. And also it doesn't feel like you're even trying.

It just feels like it's not like that. I mean, like, you know there's there's trying. But then there's like making. You just make it. Hey, check this out. I wrote this song. Not like, it's going to be so big. We're going to do this.

And that's what I always shy away. For the purpose of like following trends or blowing up. I'm like, no. I just like the creative vision thing. And I want to like stay. I just want to make what I like making. Who are the artist around you that you find like? Okay.

So who, okay, I'll start with who are your, who are you the biggest? fan of. Like, what are your favorite top three? Top three? Or five or whatever. Like, who are the first ones that come to mind that you just love? Owl City. Oh, my God, this is hard.

Jeremy Zucker, who I'm actually, like, friends with now, which is, like, crazy me. Because, fun story about that. Back in, like, when I was in college or high school, I don't know. Maybe not that. I don't know. It was, like, a while, like, a couple years ago. Right.

I was, like, begging my sisters to get me his, like, signed vinyl from my birthday and now I just like see him at parties and stuff. We're like talk. That's weird. I don't really know a lot about Jeremy Zucker. Oh, I'm a huge fan. Okay. Oh my God, this is so hard.

I know Al City. I feel like that's from my time. I was going to list off like a bunch. Yeah, just just roll through it. The band Camino, Gracie Abrams, water parks, Gabriela Applin, early Demi Lovato, like the Disney Cheney. channel original. Mm-hmm.

Oh, my blankings are. Oh, John Bellion, Hans Zimmer, old play, Wonder Public. See, I like to make... It's a good list. Yeah.

I feel like I... Oh, and definitely, like, early Katie Perry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because I... I feel like some of my music comes across as, like,

corny, but I'm like, like, the music, like, what's called? The instrumental-wise. Because I like to reference, like, that earlier, type of music, like Disney Channel original songs or like Al City, how it's kind of like... I think it's cool.

Yeah. I never see it as corny. Pop. It's like very, very much so like pop. But you say you're like pop, your alternate, alt pop, your bedroom pop. I think alternative pop probably. Alt pop. But also some of my more recent stuff because I like electric guitar.

Oh, I also B, B, B, Badooby. Oh, yeah. Super cool. She kind of inspired me to go. more heavy-handed. I was like, oh, right, I forgot about like electric guitar and stuff. Right, which you can play. Yeah, no, I can't play very well, but I was like, oh, but that's like a thing I can put in my music.

Right. That and like all of those genres, though, like I will always put, I feel like the Zaff touches like the orchestral arrangement in there. Because it's my favorite thing to do because I grew up listening to movie soundtracks. Right. I could see that. It's very landscaping. Yeah, but landscaping. I don't know how to like, every time people are asking me, like, what kind of music do you make?

I don't know. Because it goes, it ranges from like bedroom pop to indie pop to like alternative. Yeah, it's like indie old like to me. Pop rock. To me it's like indie old pop. Yeah. Yes. Made in the bedroom.

Like is your studio is your home studio? You have a home studio? Yes. And where is it set up? It might like next to my room. Okay. So you have like a room that's like your studio room. It's basically like where I'm like it's not a closet.

It's like where all the drawers to my clothes are. So it's like kind of like a, it's like a sunroom-ish because I was a sliding glass door. I don't know. It's like weird. How often do you work on music? It depends. Sometimes I'll work on it every day. Sometimes I'll go like a month without doing anything.

I don't know. I can't. No sparks coming to your mind. But I don't try to, that's why I don't try to force myself to make music. I just kind of do it when it like comes to me. That's why it feels natural because like otherwise you can kind of tell. I can kind of tell sometimes on Instagram on my like little songs. I can tell when I kind of forced myself to like finish the little song.

And I was like, oh, it's not as good as I wanted it to be. In your world and in your life, what are the artists that you feel like, okay, you're going to have an album come out, you have a single coming out. Who do you want a tour with? Like, what's your favorite world to tour? Al City. I love Al City. That would be like my biggest dream come true.

But I don't. Is he touring? No. Well, here's an album coming out soon. So, maybe. A lot of people like him. Yeah, the band Camino. Okay.

I like, like, they've not ever made a bad song. And Floor. I really like Floor too. And they went on tour together once, and I missed it. And I was sad because I wanted to let go. How was live for you? How did you like it? I do not think I was, I don't think I was ready.

Because I, like, against my will, have seen videos of me. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so awkward. on stage. I need to like learn how to move around. Like I, it's embarrassing. It comes. I feel like, just play shows. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, it was like my first ever time like doing shows. So I feel like I had that excuse. That's what was the most crazy to me was that you went on stage, you went on tour and you played shows and you'd never done it before and you were good. And you were good. And you were good. But that's the thing is I think as artists, we, and people, we're always going to be our worst critics. And in our head, we're going to tell ourselves,

I'm not enough of this or enough of that. And you did great on tour. Of course you're going to go like, oh, I'm not a good performer, just like anyone. But like you're a natural. So you're just going to be you. And if that's a little awkward sometimes or... I think I'm just scared of like, still scared of breaking the fourth wall because that's why I was so like on the internet.

Like I was only known in like pictures and like my tweets and like my music with like, that's why I put the little anime videos because I didn't want people to see me singing. So... Funny. Because I didn't like the way I looked when I sang And also because I wanted to like tell a story with like that matched the song Because I always wanted to be a movie score composer So I was like I can make a little short movie

Yeah That's my biggest dream is like You probably will Have music Even if it's just like like a regular like pop song or whatever I don't want my music in the show or a movie Because I would be like the biggest flex Yeah but you probably will

I mean that's the kind of I always see that's the kind of mind you have Like likely some as you go down the road in your creative career, someone will go, I need music for this thing. And they'll think of you. And certainly like you're putting it out there. And that's how I think most things happen is we put it out there. Yeah. And a lot of people tell me that like my music sounds like coming of age movie like music. I'm like, yes, I'm doing it right.

But I was talking about something. And then I forgot. Oh, being on stage and breaking the fourth wall. Like even when I just released like my first ever music video, I, I had a panic attack because I was like, oh, people are going to see my face. They're going to see me. They're going to connect like me as a person, like singing and moving. That's a great video.

As like two of my music for the first time. Because they'd have always seen me as just like, oh, Zep from Twitter or Zep from Instagram. And then like Zep from Spot if I never like put them together. Right. So it's like I don't know. And then I feel like being on stage like in person in front of them is like a whole other level of like, oh, we're all real people. Yeah. I don't know.

It's scary. The video, you know, I remember the video of you carrying the mannequin around. And that is like one of, still one of my favorite videos. What's the song? Are you? Yeah. Because it's supposed to represent like the dead weight of someone who's no longer invested in their relationship.

Right. It's really great. Thank you. Shout out Eric. Yeah. Eric Rojas. He's a great director. He's awesome.

He's really fun to work with too. He's easy. He's just a good guy. what would you say to people that are fans of yours and want to do what you do? Just do it. Do not like a lot of people I've seen stop because they think that their stuff like isn't good enough to put out or they like, I don't know. But don't you think that? Or they like think that they don't have a good enough like equipment or like all that stuff.

I'm like I started off recording with. an Apple earbud mic, I'd sing into it like this, and I would record videos in photo booth on my laptop. I didn't have a mic, so I would record video with the mic, and then like remove the audio from the video and then layer it like that and also play piano into the earbud mic, and then I'd layer it in a video editing thing, because I didn't have recording. I didn't have like recording software. I didn't have garage band on my laptop that I didn't know how to use it. I didn't have a mic, so I couldn't like use it. I remember when you like bought your first real recording setup. Yeah. That's crazy. And it's not even like real because I also,

over the long time I would like sit on the floor in my sister's closet. That's what I recorded forever and always is in the floor of my sister's closet or that I would like when I moved to my first apartment in Maryland I would sit on like box. My laptop was on boxes and I sit on the floor. Like it was just like I have had so many bad setups but like it doesn't matter because like if you have something to like say to like sing and record people will listen also people like like the i know oh it's hard for me to say this because i don't like the way that forever always sounds because like listening back it's it's one of my face it's so bad yeah it's so badly recorded it's not mixed but that's cool yeah people are like it's lo-fi i'm like no yeah that's what

i call it it was an accident yeah but it's lo-fi yeah but like those people i just like don't let things like that stop you because also because people people get scared they're like I can't release anything until it's perfect and they just end up never releasing anything like ever so and I started out pretty bad like if you go back in my sound cloud oh my god I could not sing it was awful and then the sound quality because that's how I recorded it with like the apple ear and mic it was so bad but like people could see my progress and it's cool because they also acknowledge they're like whoa they're like do you get a new mic? They're like, your recording sounds a lot better.

You're getting better at singing. Like, your production is like improving. So I was like, okay, it's kind of validating to like see people acknowledge my growth too. So it's like, yeah, don't be a right to like start small because that's how it all goes. But you also kind of live it. And there is something about that, in my opinion. If you want something and you want to be something and you want to do something, you can't make a, you can't just try. try to do it. You almost have to like live your life doing it. You have to, it's a lifestyle,

right? Like you actually, whether you make music for, you don't make music for a month or whether you make it every day, you're, you're staying true to your inspirational kind of like pattern. Or like. The root is there. Yeah. But you're still doing stuff. You're still like communicating to the world, your art through your other stuff. Yeah, other stuff. Do you still? Do you still draw? Not no, not really. I know I still can if I wanted to. Your drawing is tight. Which is like crazy because I feel like I'm wasting all this potential because like I could draw your own art. I know I could draw but like I just don't have the will too. I'm a fan of music. I've been around music long enough to see things and understand things and have a sense and a feeling on things.

And from the time I discovered your music to when I met you to when I met you to the first time you came to the studio and locked yourself in the bathroom to all the moments between, I will say this, there's something about you that's unique, that you move in your own rhythm. And I've always thought that was really interesting. And I always kind of respected it. That's why I don't care if you were like, I'm going on a, I'm going to go climb mountains for two years while I find my next. Like I'm just saying, like, I would go, cool.

Yeah, go do it. Because there's an artistic approach to life that, yes, it comes with other things that you probably have to deal with, the anxiety or the world. But I do think that when you're an artist, you see the world in a different way and then you explain back to us what you see in a different way. And that is, to me, what you're doing with your art. You're telling us back what you're seeing. I would imagine that there's a bunch of people listening to your songs, reading the lyrics,

scene going. This is exactly how I feel, and I don't feel like anyone else actually got it. People tell me that it's because, like, I use pretty simple words. Like, I don't use, like, anything flowery or whatever. I do sometimes, but, like, they said that the, like, the, like, word choices and the way that I, like, like, I don't know, I guess, like, put things to say, like, the juxtaposition stuff, like, really emphasizes the emotions that I'm feeling. And then they're, like, I don't know. It's cool because a lot of people have said that they listen to music for like years and years and years and I've never like felt anything until it's into mine and then that's what like unlocked the like emotional like oh my god I'm so honored stuff like that

just crazy because I did terribly in my creative writing classes in school and stuff so I don't know where like writing poetry came from I think Shell Silverstein that's what I mean like I swear I hear I it's funny you say that because I always felt a little bit of Shell Silverstein in your writing and I always thought she should do a book of even if it's unreleased songs that you just put the lyrics into a book I have lots of my notes that I like don't turn into songs it's just like just a book of of poetry and lyrics that like we haven't been able to hear yet I think if you don't do that I'm going to be really mad at some point if you don't I'm ever required to make a book and did you grow up on anime and stuff I didn't really grow I kind of started watching it in high school okay actually no

But there was one that I grew up watching from when I was like 10 to now, I've seen the whole thing. Because it's only one season. It's my favorite one, Maidama. I've seen it like 30 times because she kind of, that's why like I was kind of the way that I was in high school. Because I kind of realized that like she, her personality suited me. Yeah. And I like related. So I kind of, I don't know.

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Empe your period of We were talking about your album art, and then we were talking about all artists, and I was kind of interested in how you got interested in those artists and where that all comes from. If you grew up on it. Kind of like, I just find them on the internet.

I'm like, oh, I really like this. But, yeah. But no, even like before the internet, like the artist was doing my album art, which is crazy to me. Like, I even knew of her. I've known of her for, like, a long time. It's just like really well-known. So I'm like...

That's exciting. It's crazy. Are there any women and or men that you feel like are your absolute heroes? And it doesn't have to be a musician. It's just a person. Hans Zimmer. He's so cool. Yeah, he's cool.

You grew up listening to his soundtracks? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have never seen a single Batman movie, but my mom, because my mom worked with the library. So we'd like borrow CDs all the time. She worked at the library? Well, she still does. Okay, wow.

Yeah. Like a public library? Yeah. Wow. She's a librarian. My mom's library. My dad's a pastor, which I think is really funny. Oh, wow.

Your dad's a pastor? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I know you're like your tweets. Oh. That's why they can't see my internet. Anyway, so, but like she would bring home, like, albums because she knew that I like music a lot.

So she brought home like the dark night rises soundtrack. And I listened to that like crazy all like the, the Andrew Garfield. Spider-Man movies. So your mom has actually had a big influence on your musical development because she brought home those soundtracks. Yeah, because she noticed early on. You liked it. Yeah, because, oh my God, when I was three, I had a toy piano and I would play it a lot.

And she's just like, okay, I'm going to take you to like a real piano lesson. So I started going to piano lessons when I was three. And you can play piano? Yeah, so I was classically trained, but then I, like, hated it for a while. But can you play classical? Not well. because I stopped playing classical in like eighth grade and then pivoted to like because I hated it.

I was like, oh, this is not what I want to do. But I'm glad she forced me to do it because I learned like music theory and stuff. Right. That's how I can produce and stuff now. But then the last thing I learned from my piano teacher, she's like, we wanted to the music store and she's like pick out any of the books you want.

And I picked out Phantom of the Opera, which was like so difficult. And I had to learn the whole, the like main song, like the Phantom of the Opera on the piano. there's so many key changes it's like eight and a half pages long i have to memorize it but then i was like i don't want to do this anymore yeah so i was like i quit piano lessons and i was like i also have always had relative pitch so i think that's why she signed me up for piano lessons because

when i was three and at the toy piano i told her i made up a song so i showed her and i played it she was like that's great but that's mary had a little lamb that's already a song right but like imagine me being three years old figuring out how to play a song by ear like that's kind of crazy It's awesome. So, but now I go back to it, your mom who may not understand completely your career choice, because if we're talking about like what we're doing with our life, we can call it a career, is maybe one of the people who nurtured your development more than she realized. Then she realizes.

That's pretty interesting. She was the kind of mom who it's like, you know, you have a little baby. You play Mozart for them when they're sleeping so they get smart. I think that's where a lot of it came from. She would get a lot of like Mozart and like play like opera, not operas. Right. Plays, but their musicals from. Yeah.

And then just play it. And then also another one of the biggest music inspirations to me is the Barbie princess and the popper soundtrack. Because we had the CD. Wow. We play it every single day when I was like small. I think that's where my interest in like strings and like kind of pop-ish music came from. That and like Al-City. Al-City?

And who played you Al-City? That's actually the first music. Okay, so growing up, because my dad's pastor, my parents are very Christian. They wouldn't let us listen to music. But he's Christian, right, Al City? I think so. But back then, they wouldn't let me listen to anything but like the Christian radio stations. So they won't like the same things over and over again.

That's how I grew up, believe it or not. Until one day, shout out the internet, I found out that Pandora was a thing and I could make my own playlist or like stations. And so the first thing I voluntarily started listening to when I was like 11 or 12 was Owl City. So I grew up, yeah. Al City is the first artist I ever voluntarily listen to. Yeah. Very musical.

You can definitely hear it. All his stuff super musical. Like him, John Bellian, Coldplay, One Republic. I really like how they all use strings and stuff, but with like synths and like traditionally like either like rock or like pop or whatever. I'm like I really think that you should combine orchestras and like stuff more because it's really pretty. Also, she would take, because we're homeschooled, we're weird kids.

Oh, you were homeschooled? Yeah, up until 10th grade. Wow. Yeah. So that's also kind of why I'm like weird, end of the weird childhood. Probably super smart. I think so. Probably graduated early.

No, I graduated regular. Okay. And then I dropped out of college. Like going to college wouldn't be like your true path. Yeah. I didn't even want to go to college, but my parents were like, yeah. Would you say that now you feel like you're on your like true. path.

Like this is where you're heading towards your... I feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Right. Your destiny is ahead of you. Yeah, sort of. What's I talking about though? I was talking something leading up to like the school thing. Oh yeah.

She would take us to the Kennedy Center. Do you know what that is? Yeah. Of course I do. So they would have like all these like really cool shows and stuff. And my favorite ones were the ones like live bands. Yeah. There's one with like an orchestra, like a full like string section.

And I was like, oh my God. This is crazy. and I want this. All my years and two and a half decades of doing this music thing, every now and then I meet an artist where I go, well, they're different. That's cool. That's special. That is you when we met.

And now watching you put this music out and continue to go down the road and be you is probably been one of the, like, more fun things I've been able to watch. It's time for your appointment. Yeah, it starts in 15 minutes. I don't know if I can get home in time. Okay. Let's go. You can talk to them later.

Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. Sorry, that was like the, I don't know. It's the perfect Zep ending. Time for therapy. But also, I just want to say, because I feel like my music on, I have more music on YouTube than I have on like Spotify and stuff. And if people, I feel like I'm getting like too deep or whatever, they're like, your music's

not that deep. I'm like, go to my, go to my YouTube channel. There's more there. Go check out the YouTube channel. It's more emotional over there. Check it all. I honestly listen to all of it. And I don't, you, all your music's good.

All of it is, is anyone who's a fan will only be more of a fan as they get deeper into the catalog. So, and I think that's what you're seeing with all of your, like, numbers just growing every month because people get into one song. But then they dive in and they learn there's a lot there. There's a lot of layers. So, um, good job, Jeff. Thank you. Thanks for coming.

Thank you for having me. Hey, everybody. Hope you enjoyed today's episode and you got something out of it. It was a fun one. See you guys next time.