Ask Dr. Drew - A “National Divorce” of the USA: Michael Malice (Author of “The White Pill”) Discusses Dissolution Of The USA – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 187

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

In the 2016 article “The Case For American Secession”, Michael Malice argued for a dissolution of the United States, which he says “has spent very few years truly unified”. The idea of a “National Divorce” has only gained more prominence with recent statements by Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, who suggests dividing the country into Republican “red” states and Democratic “blue” states. But breaking apart the USA would be unconstitutional. Would splitting the USA across ideological lines help or harm the future of the country? ABOUT MICHAEL MALICE Michael Malice is the author of Dear Reader: The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il and The New Right: A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics, and organizer of The Anarchist Handbook. He is also the subject of the graphic novel Ego & Hubris, written by the late Harvey Pekar of American Splendor fame. He is the host of “YOUR WELCOME” with Michael Malice. Malice has co-authored books with several prominent personalities, including Made in America (the New York Times best selling autobiography of UFC Hall of Famer Matt Hughes), Concierge Confidential (one of NPR’s top 5 celebrity books of the year) and Black Man, White House (comedian D. L. Hughley’s satirical look at the Obama years, also a New York Times best seller). He is also the founding editor of “Overheard in New York.” 「 SPONSORED BY 」 • BIRCH GOLD - Don’t let your savings lose value. You can own physical gold and silver in a tax-sheltered retirement account, and Birch Gold will help you do it. Claim your free, no obligation info kit from Birch Gold at https://birchgold.com/drew • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 The CDC states that COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and reduce your risk of severe illness. Hundreds of millions of people have received a COVID-19 vaccine, and serious adverse reactions are uncommon. Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician and Dr. Kelly Victory is a board-certified emergency specialist. Portions of this program will examine countervailing views on important medical issues. You should always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health.  「 ABOUT the SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 GEAR PROVIDED BY 」 • BLUE MICS - Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue • ELGATO - See how Elgato's lights transformed Dr. Drew's set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/ 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 For over 30 years, Dr. Drew has answered questions and offered guidance to millions through popular shows like Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Dr. Drew On Call (HLN), Teen Mom OG (MTV), and the iconic radio show Loveline. Now, Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio. Watch all of Dr. Drew's latest shows at https://drdrew.tv Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome, everybody. Today, a very special guest, Michael Malice. He has very kindly chatted with me before, but we thought we'd do it here on the stream show, and we'll be, of course, watching you all on the restream and the Rumble Rants. You can find him at Michael Malice on Twitter, and Malice, of course, M-A-L-I-C-E. And his new book is called White Pill, A Tale of good and evil. He also has the anarchist handbook. Michael's a very well-known anarchist. And when I first heard him talk, I thought, oh man, I anarchist, I don't like anarchists. And then I found him compelling, persuasive, thoughtful, and, uh, found myself agreeing with many things that he was saying. So that was a

shock to me. Uh, and I think it's not too sort of presumptuous of me to say that we're sort of friendly now. And I like Michael and I wanted him on this show. And so let's do it right now. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction. Fentanyl and heroin, ridiculous. I'm a doctor for. Where the hell do you think I learned that?

I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop, and you want to help stop it, I can help.

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to speak to an advisor free of charge bet mgm operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario whether you own a bustling hair salon or a hot new bakery you need business insurance that can keep up with your evolving needs. With flexible coverage options from TD Insurance, you only pay for what you need. TD, ready for you. I strongly urge you to go get the white pill. I also suggest the Anarchist Handbook. You should understand some of the ideas and thoughts that Michael has been putting forward, including the case for American secession, which got everybody rather excited.

So let's bring Michael right onto the show. Michael, welcome. Thank you so much for having me back it's a pleasure it it is my privilege and thank you for doing this uh so let's uh let's talk about the white pill what why would people buy this book oh well i i think one of the most important issues that has happened in your and my lifetimes and everyone else's lifetimes listening to this for the most part was the Cold War and the rise and fall of the Soviet Union. And at the same time, this is something that has completely vanished from popular consciousness. So there's a lot of talk from both political tribes about authoritarianism, totalitarianism,

you know, Trump's literally Hitler, the Democrats want to do X, Y, and Z to your kids. And I realized that very few Americans know what these countries are really like. you know trump's literally hitler uh the democrats want to do x y and z to your kids and i realized that very few americans know what these countries are really like there is a very poor understanding of in america of what evil is like what totalitarianism and authoritarianism is like i'm reminded of when mike bloomberg was governor of new york excuse me mayor of new york city and mike huckabee who had been governor of um Arkansas at the time, was complaining about him limiting the size of big gulps at 7-Eleven, saying this is just like North Korea. Listen, if the biggest problem in North Korea is that the cups of their sodas are too small, I mean, you are completely removed from reality.

So I wanted to, A, explain to people just how evil, evil societies can become, but also illustrate why I am so hopeful for the future of this country, because this is an example where the victory over what Reagan correctly, in my view, called an evil empire was so quick, so sudden, and so total that the country itself no longer exists and is in fact receded entirely from popular discussion and consciousness. And not only that, you and I and many people listening to this, our families have come from this place. And it's important for us to remember what that actually meant in practice.

Right. That's what I wanted you to explain, why this is something that is particularly meaningful for you. And I've heard you talk to Lex Friedman about it. And at the same time, I wonder if you could sort of address that while we have no real sense of what that is actually like, would it not be accurate to say that the slide into it is through good intentions, controlling things like health and health emergencies? Is it not the case that if we're not careful, we head in that direction? No, I don't think it's good intentions at all. I think good intentions are all predators, or not all predators. There's two types of predators. There's the chase predators,

like a cheetah. They run after their prey. But there's the ambush predators, like an anglerfish or a chameleon or something like that. And I do think that it is a very useful technique if you're trying to pass in civil society as having good intentions and that allows power hungry people to get away with the worst atrocities. So no, I, but I do think the second part of what you said, yes, this is absolutely something to be extremely concerned about and to demonstrate, you know, you guys think it's bad that you have to, you know, learn something stupid on TV. This is a drop in the bucket. And explain your history that why this is so pertinent for you specifically. Well, I was born in the former Soviet Union. We emigrated here, you know, when I was one and a half, two years old. And a previous book of mine, Dear Reader,

was about North Korea, which is very much a relic of the iron curtain and the um soviet era um but i just also think it's important because it bothers me when people are kind of flipping out uh in the media and talking about how america's done or this country has been destroyed or this country's two years or one present way from being destroyed i'm like do you know how much further we have to go now certainly that's the direction that many people in power would like us to go to. But the point, the fact of the matter is we are not there yet. And it behooves us all to ask why. If these people had their druthers, they would have absolute control.

What is preventing this? And what would that look like if they got what they wanted? Well, is what's preventing it? Well, now hold on because we're going to go to really interesting territory here is what is preventing it the genius uh construction they're going to do the genius system that uh a group of white males constructed many years ago of checks and balances and certain kinds of constraints on power and then the whole state system within that and the federalism that holds it kind of together is that not the constraint is that not what

prevents it from getting there no i don't think that's i mean that's that's not part of the book at all uh because i'll get to answering the question and you answer your question in a second uh the soviet union i think is unambiguous unambiguously whether you're a republican or democrat you realize this is especially in times, malevolent and something to be avoided at all costs. Now, which party is going to get us to authoritarianism? Each is going to point the finger at the other. That's a separate issue.

I do not think the Constitution has been an effective bulwark as much as it's proclaimed against government encroachment. It used to be a felony to explain to someone even verbally how to get prophylactics. There have been very few gun restrictions that have been struck down by the Supreme Court in the last century until very, very recently. So these are two very easy examples. And the reason checks and balances don't work is why would I as a president nominate a Supreme Court justice who's going to restrict my power?

And why would I as a congressman, as a Senator specifically, pass a Supreme Court justice that's going to restrict my power? And why would I as a congressman, as a senator specifically, pass a Supreme Court justice that's going to restrict my power? All the incentives are in the other direction. And yet, and so we've slid that way at times, and certainly maybe now, and yet we've managed not to go all the way. And are you saying that, what is that, you know, the practice of democracy, as de Tocqueville called it? Is that an anachronism of the British institutions that we came from? What has held us back then? I think it's civil society, which is precisely the non-political aspects of our country. I think it's American culture. I think it's American philosophy and the ideas that were behind the constitution, which it tried to kind of invoke and implement.

That, to me, is a far bigger bulwark against what you're describing than expecting Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy to stand up and fight for the Constitution. Interesting. I always get overwhelmed and sad, as you know, when I talk to you, and you have to kind of bring me back periodically. Well, yeah, I know that's what you and you have to kind of bring me back periodically well yeah i know that's what you say you that's you that's why you how you bring me back so so you've made

the case uh for a a utopian divorce right no not at all why was it why would any divorce be utopian well a a one that is a better situation than we're in now perhaps okay to go from better to utopia it's like you know the reason to be better for us to go to one restaurant than another oh you utopian yeah the reason I say that is because divorces are never good they're always bad they buy in my thinking and so any touch I mean maybe the process of divorce yeah maybe the process is what's bad i i don't know but i've never i i've i can't think of anybody i i people have felt it's the right thing to do and that they're glad they've done it but they did not like the they didn't was not a they would rather almost have not done it even though it might have been the

right thing to do for them well i'll quote th quote Thomas Sowell, who said there are no solutions, only trade-offs. So I don't dispute what you're saying in the slightest that any divorce, whether personal or national is going to be difficult and tricky. But the question is as compared to what, as compared to the status quo. And I think for myself and increasing numbers of American, the status quo is intolerable. What about a loose federalism? What about something which is really what the original idea of a more perfect union was, I think? It's easier to abolish a government than to significantly shrink its power. There's no mechanism and there's no incentive in Washington to, including among conservative Republicans, to in any effective way shrink the size of

DC. We saw this when you have a Democratic president in Democratic Congress, Republican president in Republican Congress, Democratic president in Republican Congress, and Republican president in Democratic Congress. In no combination of those, was there even a suggestion or attempt to shrink the size of the federal budget by $1? You were in your case for American secession. Well, I want to start with the principle of secession, first of all. According to Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln, you can't have secession. It's not a logic inherent in the contract of the

federalist union unless both sides agree or all parties agree right no i george washington was a secessionist and i i respect him a lot more than jackson or lincoln who killed both killed many numbers of their own countrymen and And what was Washington's logic? I'm not aware of it. We were part of the British Empire. He said, I want to secede from Great Britain. A lot of people said, you're crazy. You can't beat the most powerful army in the world.

All you have behind you is a bunch of white trash. You don't even have shoes. He constantly had to retreat. And lo and behold, at a certain point, what had been impossible became perceived as inevitable. But where is the logic of secession from the United States? It's the same principle. We seceded from Great Britain, and now a portion of the United States, we're just going to carry it forward. We've already had internal secessions before. Maine used to be part of Massachusetts until until 1820 people didn't realize that and of course west virginia and virginia

another obvious example no it's interesting that you're using the word secession for the american revolution and it's it's it's interesting to me that if you were talking to king george he would i think call it an insurrection right the colonies were in revolt not that they were talking to King George, he would, I think, call it an insurrection, right? The colonies were in revolt, not that they were trying to secede. And that was Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Jackson's logic too, which is that's why Lincoln called the South Confederates, the Confederates so-called because he did not believe there was any legal framework for secession other than insurrection that needed to be brought back in proper alignment. And you reject all that logic. I am not interested in how kings perceive my rights, my country, or my freedom, number one. And as I think everyone realizes, what is legal is what the

people in power decide is legal. If the South had been allowed to secede, they would have retroactively said, oh, they had the right all along. And in fact, before the Civil War, there was a huge movement in New England to secede because the argument was no union with slaveholders. So the right for a country to divide itself, it's just kind of crazy to me

that America has to be perpetual when no country on earth has ever had that kind of need and demand that it's going to live forever. Is the wording in our constitution about perpetuity? I think it is, right? There's wording in the constitution about the Second Amendment. There's wording about free speech. The First Amendment guaranteed the right of people to peaceably assemble. No one even bothered to invoke that during the lockdowns during COVID. So it is very much a dead

letter. Tell me more about that. How did you feel about the excesses that we got into during COVID? I think what the COVID situation caused was given some vet by design or otherwise gave some very nefarious people some very useful information about the limits of American and international compliance to edicts isn't it weird the whole world complied the entire except Africa they didn't need to they didn't bother and they did fine I don't think it's weird at all. I think human beings are naturally compliant with those who are in authority. And we've had decades of a media operation

and an educational system, especially in the West, designed to train people to be subservient and to bend the knee. My wife is reacting to everything you're saying. She's out here saying preach, I think. Truth. She said, true, true, speak. She said, true.

And so if we have some sort of disunion, some sort of disunion. Well, let me ask something else. You brought up in the case for the secession in the in the article you talked about the south being the whipping boy uh because of their history with slavery i noticed you i'm very focused on reconstruction uh in that i really believe strongly that much of the trauma that is being sort of echoed in the echoes of trauma, I mean, obviously slavery was traumatic and horrible, but the Reconstruction was perhaps,

I don't wanna say worse, but another layer of violence that people seem to have forgotten about, at least the general um american mind seems unaware that this was a time of roving warlords just just indiscriminately killing black people it was terrible uh and so there's a period there go ahead i i thought you were also something else where effectively the south the former confederacy became afghanistan they were under occupied by what they regard as foreign territory uh and then they you know what they had to put up with they took it out on those who are weaker than them which is human nature which is as you said the black people so no one in the north gave a crap about these former slaves

it's a little more complicated as i understand it which is that uh of course, when you the circumstance you're talking about is exactly what happened. But there was going there was planned to be a much heavier hand of occupation and supervision. And what ended up happening under Andrew Johnson, the federal government just backed off and the Democratic Congress just gave those sort of, I don't want to say rights and privileges, but set up circumstances much like you're describing where that's exactly what happened. These frustrated people acted out on those who they felt as responsible for the circumstance. Wait, I don't know what you're referring to because wasn't the Congress exclusively or overwhelmingly held by radical Republicans for many years after the Civil War? What Democratic Congress are

you referring to? My understanding was there was, Grant couldn't get anything done because of the Congress. And there was a complete, my understanding and as a reading of this, is they completely, I don't know if they had a majority or not, but they completely cowed to the democratic influence and the democratic administrations in the various states set up. And I mean, you can blame it on Andrew Johnson or whatever else was going on in the mix, but it was a set of policies that allowed all that to happen. It didn't have to happen like that. I mean, Abraham Lincoln sort of had a plan. I i mean he wanted people to go back to their homes but he wanted to you know get things back in alignment and his plan was to have a lot of african-americans in positions of authority

and and his plan was to deport former slaves he said that that was before that was not later not later really what's it called, the Corwin Amendment? The Corwin Amendment? Let me look this up right now. He talked about that maybe as long as midway through the war, and he's always said, I would prefer to reestablish the Union than save the slaves. But his ideas were considerably changed across the war.

And Frederick Douglass was, in my opinion, a big reason for those changes. I mean, he convinced him of any, as Frederick Douglass pointed out, he remained a white supremacist. He remained Eurocentric, white in his thinking, for sure. But he really saw it's his job to bring black Americans into citizenship,

into the process. now you can argue about how he got there and was it you know militarily expedient and all that kind of stuff but but i i do believe in strongly that although he was a can be seen as a white again this term white supremacy we we everyone bristles when they hear it they think of some sort of skinhead no i mean he was eurocentric white in his thinking he felt there was a natural tendency for white ascension he for sure was in that camp for sure but he also felt in the he was a big believer in the uh declaration of independence and the opening ideas in that as all men created equal and wanted to get that right but he wasn't a big fan of the idea of independence,

as you just said. And to your point, even after the Civil War and despite Reconstruction, I think it's almost impossible for anyone to say with a straight face that the South and the North, or what had formerly been the Confederacy and the Northeast states, have the same culture or are, you know, in any effective way, the same country other than on its face,

and decreasingly so in recent years where and where do you live now austin the republic of texas you're in the south and in texas is yet another thing right texas is different again right texas has its own history of autonomy and craziness lots of craziness in Texas history. And you can feel the difference. I wanna point, and in the Texas Republican Party platform in the last year, a referendum to demand that Texas declare its independence

is now part of the official Republican Party platform in Texas. So I agree with you that there's a lot of craziness here and I revel in it because what is crazy to one person just means to the other. We're not going to have an argument. There's no point in having a discussion any further, and that's exactly what I want. Let's say that Texas decides to secede, okay? And let's say they start that process of whatever that might look like.

Do you think there's a world where the American military steps in and prevents that? and let's say they start that process of whatever that might look like, do you think there's a world where the American military steps in and prevents that? Yes. Of course. Attempts to. Of course. Okay. So how would this work? How would the divorce actually operationally, how would it work? Well, you just gave one example. One way it would work is Texas says, all right, we're a republic again. And then they're like, okay, done. So that's one easy way. Another way would be if certain other states decided to join with Texas or America could be split into four. If we're talking about what it would look like, I'm delighted because if you and I are going, if I'm trying to sell you a car and you're arguing about what features the

car should have, I've kind of done my job. I'm just exploring. Am I wrong? No, I like the idea. I mean, you certainly have what you call foot in the door, right? Foot in the door. And I'll say one more thing to everybody else listening. If it was 2015, 2015 14 which is very recent

and i asked everyone listening to this which of the following things is more likely to you that texas is going to declare that it's its own country again or that donald trump is going to be the nominee than the president 99 of people would say texas yes you're right you're right so did trump did did trump do something to hasten this process, do you think? And if so, what? Yes. I think he's done an enormous job, thankfully, in further dividing America. I think he's done a great job in having people recognize that political discourse is often not only pointless, but counterproductive. And I think he's created these silos, which so many people in

corporate media bemoan which i delight in where people are more ideologically self-segregating and choosing to live alongside people who think and act like them i remember i don't think i told you this last time we talked but i remember that i was reading something about osama bin laden's philosophy and plan one One of his major objectives was to try to turn us into 50 independent countries, independent republics or countries or something. Are we merely on the road that he established and are we falling victim to something that some outside force put in place? Well, let's follow this logic. If Osama bin Laden

wanted New York City to be destroyed, does that mean it shouldn't be destroyed? Of course it should be destroyed. So just because Osama bin Laden says something doesn't mean that it's, you heard me, doesn't mean that it's wrong. We can't keep making our decisions just doing the opposite of what bad people say that is a complete logical fallacy and i'm not saying that it should be 50 countries at all i'm just worried about texas and everyone else can you know blank off and then as far as uh your opening comment about you know the evil intent and evil empire we have uh a leader in China that people are very concerned about. Aren't you concerned that this dissociation would put us at the whim of these folks?

I, to be honest, I don't understand this argument. Let's talk it through because I do respect your opinion. Let's suppose America splits into two countries. One's 175 million, one's 175. Canada has like 35 million. South Korea has like 70. Japan has 100 million. I don't understand how we become the next target. And if Texas secedes, for example, China is just going to go for Texas. This argument makes no sense to me. Now, I agree with you that we should be extremely concerned about Chinese influence, that the Chinese government is, other than perhaps North Korea, one of the most malevolent governments on earth. That said, it is much easier, in my opinion, for an America that has separated to be free of Chinese influence than have us be united

under media centers in New York and Washington who are under the thumb of Chinese influence. Do you think that when you say under the thumb of chinese influence were they a major player in some of the uh lockdown decisions that were made and some of the stupid decisions were made during covid and what's the evidence for that as you said the media is under the influence of china what do we know well i just mean how the media reports on certain things when you have movies that are exported to china they're kind of edited to as not to offend Chinese sensibilities. I think websites like search engines, they are very much bend the knee as opposed to Google's old slogan of first do no evil, right? Now they're just going to kowtow and accommodate the Chinese influence. So I'm not referring to things like elections or

that. I'm not, excuse me, COVID. I'm not informed about what China did at all in that regard vis-a-vis lockdowns. But the fact that universally the behaviors were the same, I would describe that much more to a lemming effect than rather than every country on earth is under Chinese control. It was, you know, the evidence suggests that what happened was, is our so-called public health leaders sent people to talk to their counterparts in China and were hoodwinked by them, frankly, into adopting what was a political maneuver and were sort of convinced that it was a medical intervention that had absolute efficacy. I mean, it's just insane that we adopted these policies that the CCP put in

place so as not to save face were there a leak from the Wuhan lab. And we adopted them whole hog, advised Italy to do the same. And then when we did so, the whole world followed us which again maybe the best thing about some sort of american dissociation would be uh the stopping the rest of the world from continually following us in our following us and when we get into fallacies and and in problematic behaviors and culture well i do you think that if republic of tex Texas reasserts itself it would have been that amenable to Chinese influence and suggestion I certainly don't no no no no it would have been the the People's Republic of California would have been right there with them yeah yeah so uh I see my wife getting very interested in what you're saying do you have any any comments you want to

make you're you're sort of agitated by this no you're doing a great job well i want to hear your thoughts are you and so because i know you're very concerned about i mean i can see why we you know should think about splitting everything up it does isolate the uh well it's sort of pathogen yeah i mean it takes mean, it moves things around, but I don't want to get stuck with Oregon. That's the reason she doesn't want to do it, because she might get stuck with Oregon. You're stuck with California.

We're already in California. You're already stuck with California. We don't want the People's Republic of Oregon, Washington, and California. Too much. We'll just call, and California. Too much. We'll just call that North Korea. West Korea. Oh, my gosh.

That is so funny. You know, complete sidebar. I heard your buddy, Lex Friedman, talking to a psychiatrist in one of his recent podcasts. Did you hear that one? A robot or psychiatrist walking to a bar. That's why I brought it up to you. One of the reasons I brought it up to you

is that his robotness came through loud and clear. Your theory, I think, is absolutely correct. I think if you listen to that, it sort of proves your point. Not proves your point, establishes the fact

that he's a robot. The psychiatrist who was you know mental health professionals yeah go ahead hey doctor i have a problem sleeping at night sometimes i think i'm a one but what if i'm a zero that's him uh but he uh and and by the way i'm i, I am, uh, I am a, uh, acolyte. I, I, I love his podcast. It's how I got exposed to you. I'm, I'm a big fan of his. Uh, but it was really interesting to me as somebody who's deep in this material. And again, mental health professionals can agree and disagree on a lot of stuff, but this guy that was talking to him, I thought was

absolutely spot on, not only in what he was saying, but the way he was talking to him i thought was absolutely spot on not only in what he was saying but the way he was able to describe it and he was talking about some of the fundamental principles of how human psychological landscapes and personalities are constructed lex could not get it he was like talking to a robot he could not understand it and And I was just dying when I was listening to it. I thought, and I thought, and I have to go on his show, Mike. You're going to have to help. Michael, you have to help me with that. Maybe I'll go on with you. But he.

Why don't you put us both on the couch? Because we both have the same background. That would be such a fun episode. We could do something like that. You both are extremely different trust me you're very very different people um but but he um it was really and i thought to myself i thought but here's my thought even let's say he's not a robot just for the sake of argument uh i thought to myself uh man we have to really help people understand how humans work.

People don't under, even somebody as brilliant as Lex doesn't get how humans really work. And I thought, wow, we have a job to do here. Go ahead. I disagree in this regard. One of the reasons I wrote the North Korea book is because there was this idea in the public consciousness that they're crazy. And I'm like, these people follow a internal logic. It has worked very well for them. They've sustained their country far longer than the Soviet Union and other empires. So calling them crazy is

just a confession that you don't understand how they work or think. And I think there is a strong aversion in popular thinking and behavior to try to see things from other points of view. Like if I sat somebody down and be like, we need to look at things from Bin Laden's point of view, you sound like you're a Bin Laden sympathizer where it's supposed to. It's like, wait a minute, don't you want to know what Al Qaeda is going to do next? That's extremely crucial for anyone who's under attack. But they don't think like that. You know, I think I think what I call listening to trying to understand what's

across the table from you, whenever you're in any any kind of dialogue over anything with other humans you've got to put your head in theirs and try to understand their point of view it's very it's not as easy to do and so i've been doing that the whole pandemic trying to understand like for instance just a simple sort of version of that is the excessive push to vaccinate children i'm like, what are they thinking? What is in their head that they think this is the right thing to do? And I can't get it yet. Typically, you can kind of understand what's going on.

We'll see if they can give me that information at some point. But that would be a lot of fun. I think something else you've had to deal with in your practice is that people are often very inarticulate, even about their own thoughts and emotions so rather than reacting to someone saying at face value take a second and try to be between the lines because a lot of times they're very bad expressing and just be focused on what they're saying instead of what they're trying to express you're going to

completely miss it that's right no that's exactly right and and you can and it's okay to ask you know explain understand trying to get my head around it help me help me understand it but you got to understand other people's experiences it is vitally important um even if it's a robot uh so yeah so one one one one yeah yeah um i was gonna say you know you you mentioned you just sort of tilted at the fact that, um, I've had some similar experience to yourself and Lex's, which is that my, uh, grandfather was, uh, Ukrainian. My grandmother was Belarusian, but they lived in Ukraine. And, uh, they, my grandmother used to describe, well, so, so there was a giant diaspora from Ukraine, uh, at the beginning of

the 20th century and belarus giant and people aren't aware that this was the case mostly jews because they were the they were the targets uh this was leading up to the holodomor which was the famine that they're the uh what do they call it when they move everybody around the uh cultural the cool the gulags were set up and the family um kulaks yeah my my family ran away ran away was part of the diaspora in response to what was happening in the lead up to that and i think i explained this to you and i'll do it again my grandmother used to call it the bandits that bandits would come through their town and destroy everything and again the jews were the targets and the the suggestion is in retrospect that that was either the czarists the bolsheviks the mensheviks or just plain old criminals running around like little warlords just destroying stuff

to for their own advantage is that is that probably what was going on at that time well yeah i mean the level of anti-semitism in what became the soviet union was just astronomical uh and it was very much part of the government so when the the government which had a lot of jews in the government did something bad it was the fault of the jews and when the government wasn't working it was the fault the jews were undermining it so that tradition goes back for centuries in what became uh the soviet union uh and the thing that was kind of interesting you brought up Lex uh when I was on his show a couple episodes ago I was talking about

what my family went through and my grandmother you know was trying to flee the Nazis and describe the Holocaust and I was kind of brought me teary-eyed because you try to imagine someone who's in your own family where your choices are either being murdered by the Nazis or living in a state of constant hunger where all you could think about every day is bread bread bread and of course some of the nazi commentators are like oh you talk about the holocaust some more why don't you talk about the holodomor and i'm like well i am i'm like let me get this book out the door so yeah hope the nazis are happy now i doubt that they will be oh my god it's so weird that that yeah i and what scares me almost more than anything else is that people in this country are not just unaware of the founding principles of what set this up and how we got to where we are and what the shared traumas were and the shared ideas and the ideas upon which this was all founded.

There seems to be very little awareness of history at all. And so the things you're talking about are completely missed for sure. Well, that's by design. I think the media tries to keep people in a state of perpetual present, where if there's something contradictory from two years ago, if they don't talk about it, it doesn't occur in popular consciousness. The greatest analogy to this is if you have some kind of soap opera, right? And Dynasty from the 80s, I'm going to show my age.

There was one season where I think his character's named Adam. He rapes this girl named Kirby. And two two seasons later he's marrying her and no one just talks about it right so it's kind of like well in the context of that show if they don't talk about it didn't really happen or it's not relevant and it's the same thing like if there's something happened four years ago i remember here's one easy example uh greece uh was going to default on their debt with the eu and they were on the verge of voting in a radical leftist government, and they did, and they never brought it up again. If we didn't send ground troops into Syria,

there was going to be a genocide of the Kurds. This is another Holocaust. We're talking about this every day on TV. We have to do this, we have to do this. We didn't send in the troops to Syria, they just stopped talking about it. So there is very much this perpetual present that's by design in corporate media and who who's who's the orchestrator why is that being designed in that way what is who is there because i i was in corporate media for a long time and at the time there was never anybody questioning anything i said until i

said something they got mad about but but there was no day in, day out kind of orchestration that I was aware of. You don't need an orchestration. If I'm writing a soap opera, right, I'm not thinking, well, five seasons ago, unless I want to introduce a new storyline. It's very much what's happening today, what's happening this week. And if you're going to provide context that makes things complicated for people and it makes the conversation less nuanced, then that's exactly what they're fighting against against and it's also harder to kind of guide the populace in the direction that you would like but you're but you're saying then guide the we were just trying to get ratings that that was always the that was always the mandate from above get get eyes and

you know you're right you couldn't do anything complicated you have to just do things you have to sort of what one of my producers used to call, make something happen. There had to be some conflict on TV and that was it. And that was it. That's all you worried about at the time. And I worried about trying to get good information out, but there was the corporate part of it was, and you know, I tell this story. I remember seeing a 60 minutes style interview when I was a kid and this thing stayed with me vividly. I think I brought this up for you before we'll bring up for this audience was this 60 minutes style interview was hammering on a Soviet journalist. You know, how can you do this? How can you distort what

you say on behalf of the government? How can you do the How can you push out propaganda? And finally, the guy got frustrated, he looked up at the American reporter and went, Hey, in our country, the news media, journalism is a political enterprise. In yours, it's a commercial enterprise. You will have and do have distortions because of that. And that stayed with me till this moment. And I think that's what we're seeing the playing out of as we had the 24-hour news cycle, multiple cable channels, everything's on YouTube and social media. They're competing for eyes and they're going to places that are not good and not good for the populace. I wish it were as simple as that, because if that were the case,

they'd be more interested in trying to change their strategy when they're losing their eyeballs. When, as from my perspective, oftentimes when they're going in a political direction they're losing eyeballs they will blame the eyeballs it's the fault of the audience for being to x y or z uh and they will continue to double down on their politics in fact i remember very vividly after 2016 dean banquet i think his name who's the head of the new york times said all right we we blundered we missed this by a long shot we're going to be more amenable to what uh you know trump voters are saying and that went out the window in two days now

on it to play devil's advocate going against trump constantly did num great numbers for their sales but one of the things i uncovered in the white pill was to what extent it wasn't just what was happening in the soviet union it was to what extent Western apologists were making excuses for things like show trials, where people were confessing to things that were literally impossible, to concentration camps, to starving millions of people by design. And this wasn't done simply for ratings. This was done for ideological reasons. Okay, I'm going to take a little break break and i want to pick back up with that the western apologists were really egregious in the first half of the 20th century and in response what

was going on in russia so michael malice everybody uh besides buying the white pill do you want to send anybody a particular website i apologize in advance for my twitter which is twitter.com michael malice and my youtube's michael Malice official. Fair enough. He's apologizing ahead of time. So I suggest you check it out. We'll be right back. Not sure how to say I love you this Valentine's Day. Well, nothing says I love you more than a few minutes of relaxation and GenuCell skincare does just that. Gives you the luxury gift of feeling like you spent the entire day in the spa all, in fact, in the comfort of your own home. Susan loves to feel pampered and special, especially on Valentine's Day, so why not relax with a detoxifying mask and feel amazing after only one use? I know I'm a snob about the products I use on my face. Everybody knows it. Every time I

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to protect your future. Here's what i want you to do visit birchgold.com slash true today and we are back with one and only michael malice michael malice at twitter and i believe instagram as well the book is called the white pill and before the break we were talking about how there were really uh well if i remember right michael there was one journalist in particular that went over to russia and actually won a pulitzer prize or something if i remember uh and was is that right wait am i remembering this history properly the bad guy the bad guy that went over there and uh bought everything they yeah bought everything they were feeding him and uh and knew he was being censored and still went and presented this excessive glowing report

talk to me about that guy i forget his name uh walter durant he actually has one of his claims to fame is that he was friends with allister crowley and stole his girlfriend and later married her he was one of the most evil human beings who ever lived he got an interview uh i detail him at length here in the white pill he was the new york times man in washington excuse me in moscow and when gareth jones who was an independent very young reporter um decided to uh um my alarm's going off to remind me to do Dr. Drew. One second. Hold on a second. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Good. You wouldn't have forgotten us. Yeah. This is a hair-raising story when you hear what this guy did. It's awful. Gareth Jones, the Soviets were very big on

controlling the information that left the Soviet Union. And if you're a reporter in the Soviet Union from the West, you had to get everything filed through a censor. So that heavily encouraged you to self-censor because if I want to file a story and I know Drew's going to look over it, well, Drew could also say, let me talk to my supervisor. I don't know who your supervisor is. I can never get ahold of him.

So it's very hard for me to get information out. So that was one mechanism they used. But there was someone named Gareth Jones, young reporter. They were not allowing anyone to go to Ukraine. He took a train to Ukraine and got off a stop early. And then he started wandering the countryside and he saw what was being done to these people in these villages. And here's the thing, your own body would betray you. So the activists from the government would come, get any grain you had, any food you had, any food you had. Then they'd come back at night to search your house. If they found anything, they'd wreck

the house and put you out in the street naked. You can't go to another town. You have no money and you were forced to starve. And if they saw you were not leaning out in your face, they knew you were a hoarder and that food is government property. So he went from village to village, and they told him, we have no hope, we are doomed. He reported this to the West, and Walter Durante, the guy from the New York Times, led a cavalcade of Western journalists to say that this is all lies, this is anti-Soviet propaganda, you guys don't get it.

16-page article, I believe, in the New York Times, front headline, there is no starvation. Russians are merely tightening their belts. There's no famine, nor is there likely to be a years later, Walter Durante admitted, oops, I guess I got it wrong. But for me, when you're saying, oops, I got it. Yes, I got it wrong. When you're talking about starving millions of people and denouncing the reporters who

did their footwork and saying, reporters shouldn't go into these towns. There's nothing to see here. The only people complaining are loudmouths. Everyone else is busy farming. That just speaks to how, which drives me crazy when these like boomer conservatives are like, the press was honest when I was a kid. It was always some of the worst people imaginable it's just it just we they they went we went through a period where it was better and we'd forgotten what could have happened and what did happen and let's be fair the this doesn't that playbook sound very familiar to what we've all just been through recently with disinformation and misinformation and uh you know misinformation czars we're going to keep the ministry of truth uh in line this is all too familiar to the present

moment when people who try to say something real about what's going on are being crushed i i was just on jimmy door show uh comedian and podcaster and he had this amazing bit i was peeing my pants as a result of it. There you go. Thank you. There's the headline. And Jimmy Dore said, they try to make it out. Don't do your own research, right? You're not a doctor.

You're not an expert. And Jimmy Dore is like, that's called reading. He goes, they're trying to make it that reading is what stupid people do. Oh, you're looking things up, reading your own art. You're doing some reading over there? What are you, some kind of idiot it's just when you think about it it's just really kind of deranged but yet effective i i do i do think it's all the sort of uh vacuum left behind by the distrust that's been fomented and the people do have to go have sources they can rely on like like i i'm a

good reader of medical literature i'm not as good as vinaya prasad i go to him i i watch what he reads i listen to what he says i go back to literature and found him to be just some people can just penetrate the literature you got to have those people around to help you they're like consultants they can really help you get things when you when you're relying solely on, I kind of understand that that's a risky proposition, but I do recommend that people read and educate themselves and do the best they can nevertheless. But you also say where you drew your opinions from, where people can go, I'm saying this based on this article or this person. No, you're not saying, hey, trust me, I'm Dr. Drew. You're saying

this is how I came to this conclusion. And now they're in a position to be like, okay, I don't trust this Dr. Drew guy. Let me look where he's talking about and let me look at other sources. That is very different from trust the science. Who do you think you are? And the fact that people who have never stepped foot in a medical school will tell you who is a real doctor, not a Dr. Jill doctor, that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to medicine.

But that just speaks to the arrogance that is put forward by corporate media to its adherence. I completely agree. I've always said journalists aren't expert in anything, and they're always looking for a story. In biology, the story is no story. There's no story. If you have a narrative in biology biology you're taking it down to a kindergarten level to help somebody understand it not because there's a story there because the reality is much more complicated back to listen to the science i i thought of something that day i thought you would like prior to the 20th century uh government excesses we had divine rights of kings and we had monarchies that were extremely

potentially dictatorial and i would argue that louis the 14th was probably the prime example that would you agree that he was the sort of one of the shiny example of centralized i don't think dictatorial authority no i think there's a lot of kings who are much more malevolent than him i i didn't say i agree more malevolent well let me put it we'll tell you we'll tell you why i'm framing it that way you know he is famous for having said this i am the state right they toss a moi right right well okay they toss a moi uh everyone i knew until this year maybe or last year would looked at him with tremendous disdain for having that kind of centralized dictatorial attitude about himself, that everything is about him, the state.

Be careful, everybody. We just had a guy stand up and say, I'm the science. I'm the science. That is not far off from les tassez-moi. It really isn't. And that kind of thing should make us shudder when bureaucrats tell you that they are fill-in-the-blank authority. Well, as an anarchist, I agree with your second point, but he was right. He was the state. He's the king.

In a monarchy, the king is the state. So it might sound kind of shocking to contemporary ears, but I don't think he was saying anything that's particularly controversial in his time. No, no, no. I agree. What I'm saying is we had this citizens of this country looked at that kind of monarchical authority with great disdain and, you know, like, like, thank goodness that's passed. And yet here we have leaders and bureaucrats in our current government saying things that sound like echoes of that past. But I think I'm just going to quote h.l mencken the great kind of curmudgeon of the early 20th century when he said the average man does not

want to be free he merely wants to be safe and i think if anyone thinks that the way to freedom is to persuade a majority of your fellows that liberty should be their highest value you are playing a fool's errand. Well, safe, of course, you know, I think that, and survival, you know, when you really get down to it. But if you have those things in place, I would argue that freedom becomes a very quickly an important priority, no? For most people, no.

Most people are very happy to have large sections of their decision-making outsourced to others. And as long as they have a TV set and some kind of... There's a reason why Brave New World resonates so effectively even today, how many decades after it's been written. It's much easier to manage a population through bread and circuses than it is through fear. I want to go back to what Garrett saw in the Ukraine. If I remember right, not only did the government come after you if you had any food or looked like you had had food,

didn't the Ukrainians start to turn on each other? If anybody looked healthy or fed, that they would be not just ostracized, but there could be violence against them, right? Right. So the media did an effective job in the soviet union of blaming the kulaks which is these rich land owners which effectively basically meant anyone they didn't like uh you're starving because in the uk in ukraine they're hoarding their food now i have no idea what's going on in ukraine because my media is not reporting that to me so any of these ukrainians who fled ukraine and tried to get their own food on the other part of russia they were blamed for that which they were fleeing and was imposed on them.

And there is a scene in the book, which was very disturbing for me to research and write about, where there was this young girl just begging with a crumb of bread in her hand on a line outside a supermarket, a store, and the shopkeep looking at the people waiting on line, daring them to help her because you're going the shopkeep looking at the people waiting in line, daring them to help her because you're going to help an enemy of the people, and she died on the spot. And basically the idea is like, good, you deserved it. We're hungry because of you and people like you.

So these totalitarian governments are very effective at scapegoating, you know, Emmanuel Goldstein in 1984. You find a section of the populace and you're miserable because they're undermining this great plan that the rest of us have. Why did the Jews so often, through history, become the object of that? And by the way, I find it especially odd

given that Belarus, for hundreds of years, encouraged Jews to come and be professionals and develop their society. The Duke of Belarus organized things around them. Why always the scapegoating, do you think? First of all, tradition, it's easy, right? So if there's something in the ether that, you know, if you learned 50 years ago that it was the Jews' fault that they got kicked out of some country, if something goes wrong

nowadays, I could just point to that and they'd be like, oh yeah, I heard about this from my grandma. She was right. I was duped. That's one. The other reason is Jews were both isolated and self-isolating. And then when you have an outsider group who's alien to the broader culture, it's very easy to cause them to really be the outsider group and to pin a lot of things on them. And also Jewish success compared to non-Jewish success in many of these countries was the source of great tension as well. And if you're going to be the money lenders, as many Jews were driven to, it's very easy to have a way of debt relief. It's like, all right, you don't have to pay them off their debts. You get to be the good guys, the politician, and they get to be the villains. How about the role of envy and narcissism in all this? It's certainly playing a big

function now do you think it's through history that's been a big deal well i'm not a historian or a psychiatrist or psychologist but i think envy i don't know that's per se what i would put it at the foot of but i think when you have this kind of nomad the diaspora and this you have it even today in certain circles, like people regard black Americans as a historical accident. And they'll also say, get over slavery. Well, which is it? If you're getting over slavery, you're not going to look at them as a historical accident. And if you're looking at them, like they're only here because of slavery, well, then that's over and you have to accept them. So it's very easy to find. And every country,

Britain, it's the Irish. I'm sure there's someone in Canada, every country has a population and they kind of have their own weird thing and when things get tough, it's easy to say, think we're suffering because of those weirdos over there. What do we do today with the media? We've sort of, we've brought it forward from where the media was duplicitous in the soviet union that resulted in untoward violence and death where you've sort of

pointed out that it there are echoes of all of that here today and how media operates what do we do with that always remind corporate journalists and social media that you have no understanding of how much hatred and contempt the average person has toward you. Remind them that the battle is won when the average American regards a corporate journalist exactly as they regard a tobacco executive. And keep in mind that these people do not merely have a bias, which we all do. We all have a perspective that we add to how we sift information, but an agenda that they are starting with the story and then find evidence to reach the conclusion in which they have preconceived. So when you make, this is one of the greatest things about Elon Musk taking over Twitter.

Now the journalists are no longer protected class and they're taking L after L after L on social media and they're crying about it. And it's just glorious to see for once in American history. Why isn't the twitter file thing i guess it's because corporate media can't admit their role in all this but but you would still think that somebody i just the fact look just yesterday day before yesterday new york times published an opinion piece about the masks not working i couldn't believe it i thought just new york times everybody opinion piece piece showing that it's done,

the mask did not work, and we have learned nothing. That seemed like a great leap forward for me. Why can't we have somebody write a little something about maybe these Twitter files do tell us something? But they wrote that because it's that perpetual present. They will never force their readers to be like,

masks don't work, we were wrong. They will put the information readers to be like, masks don't work. We were wrong. They will put the information once it no longer matters. And another big example is we don't know who went to Epstein Island. John Dingell, who was a congressman, there were all these sealed cases where various members of Congress settled in terms of depositions for sexual harassment. Those cases have been sealed for a long time. There's no hunger in the media, either on the right or the the left to get those cases unsealed and get those names i think it's very very curious it is very curious it's curious to me that we don't know why demar

hamlin felt that you know fell dead in the field that's it just seems like the most obvious thing in terms of going after a story that seems like the most obvious thing in the world to understand why that's being hidden what happened there what needs to be learned from it why it was obfuscated it just seems like such a natural for what i thought journalists did but uh i guess not another reason why i'm so hopeful for the future of this country these people are often very lazy. So people who are blackpilled, meaning rap, we can't win. The West is lost. America is lost. When you look at, let's suppose, John Fetterman, are you really going to say this is an unstoppable foe? I can't stand up against him. And there's plenty of Republicans as well who fit that mold. When you look at them, you're like, really, this person's going to be the thing that I can't stand

up against. So that I think is an important, Don Lemon. You can't look at them, you're like, really, this person's going to be the thing that I can't stand up against. So that I think is an important, uh, Don Lemon. You can't look at Don Lemon and be like, all right, like there's no way I can stand up to this guy. And that's why I'm so hopeful for the future of this country once it's divided. And then of course you have Margaret, Margaret Taylor Greene, uh, uh, towing your line. Yeah. You love her. Really? No kidding. I think it's very useful to have crazies in political discourse because that forces a lot of people to go to their plan B.

Because plan A is to have discourse in perpetuity. And once you see, okay, there's no talking to this person, they're a loon, you have to retreat to a fallback position. And that is what I want to see more of. Where do you want uh people to go in response to marjorie well i just like that now you know we spent a year where everyone including you and myself had to grapple with the and i say this as an anarchist had to grapple with the idea of defunding the police that we're going to have these neighborhoods where there's less money spent on cops more more in community workers, and yet people can't arm themselves to protect their homes.

And we all have to talk about this with a straight face. So I'm very gladdened that now people are going to take the idea of national divorce, which I was mocked at for quite a long time. It's never going to happen. It's impossible. This is just craziness on Twitter or on the fringes. Well, that's how ideas become mainstream. They start with someplace crazy and with crazy people. And then everyone's like, oh my God, can you believe what these crazy people say? And then some sociopath politician is like, you know what, there's a lot of these crazies.

I'm gonna push forth this idea and get further in power. And that's how I think this national divorce thing is gonna go. Explain to people your brand of anarchism. I have an anarchist without adjectives the black flag comes in many colors so i like them all but you're but you you are not uh for you're not anti-police you're not for a dissolution of government i'm very anti-police are you every cop is a criminal from my perspective i don't i've not heard you say this

why is that because they have no authority to do what they do every police officer enforces unlawful uh principle laws on the citizenry that are perfectly innocent and a completely violation of the constitution and basic principles i'll give you a very obvious example how much money would gavin newsom have to pay you to tell a little girl she has to shut down her laminate stand? And what kind of person would do this? Yeah, I know. I know. I know it's terrible. Listen, that kind of stuff was going on all the time. People's livelihood, their family businesses were destroyed. And they weren't just asked to do it. They put steel doors and soldered things shut if anybody tried to dare to. And it really wasn't the police.

The police were apologetic, much like the lifeguards that had to tell people to get off the beach. I mean, there were 22-year-old kids telling people to get off the beach, apologizing, but they were told they had to do it it was you know look you wonder how police well this is a different conversation but how the average person is uh persuaded to do things that are not good um you know we saw there is no law so obscene that the police would refuse to enforce it up to and including the mass execution of innocent children and this has been demonstrated in every country throughout history time and time again. And every letter, every law that is passed by the governors that you hate

and the presidents you hate would be letters to Santa without men and women in badges willing to impose them on the citizenry. And so how should this, what would the solution be to criminal behavior? There's no reason why security is a service different from any other. When you have a government monopoly on a product or service, right, when you have a government monopoly on any service, not only does it become scarce and unmanageable, it also becomes politicized. We don't talk about the Republican approach to dresses or the Democratic approach

to pasta. Those things don't make sense because the government is not involved in the production in the sense that I mean of food or clothing. But because you have politics involved in security, all of a sudden it becomes a problem for literally everybody. Wouldn't private for-profit police services necessarily discriminate against people who couldn't afford it? No, because when you go into, have you ever been to a hotel? I've been to a hotel. There's security there.

You're not paying for the security. When you go to a bar, which is full of young men, full of testosterone and alcohol, there's security there. It is only the places that are under government protection, meaning the subways, the streets, the parks, where crime is the biggest issue and nothing is being done, even libraries, nothing is being done about it. When areas are under private purview, your first approach, even a mall, is to make sure that that area is secure for anyone who's welcome to come in.

I worry about what they call the tragedy of the commons, something like that occurring from, if you had a collective force like that, but has any society ever done that? That's the status quo is what you're talking about, tragedy of the commons. Police are a relatively historically recent phenomenon. We used to have private police services before,

and then it became kind of these standardized gangs that worked through the state. But again, I don't think that's a very good pro-annecdote argument because that is not historically recent. And you also have an interesting way of looking at taxes. Well, I don't think they're that interesting. What do you mean?

How is that interesting? Taxes are legitimate. I think, and you call them robbery, essentially. Well, don't you think that, I mean, what's the difference between the mafia and Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi? In the views of anarchists, they are literal gangsters. And people think a gangster,

they think of whatever, face tattoos, maybe holding the gun like this. No, it's men and women in suits, often with big rings, and you sit down and kiss the ring. And then they steal your money. Yeah. Well, no, they don't. No, no, no, no. They take their money before you even see it. There's withholding.

They get it before you get it. They make sure they get it before you get it. Right. And, but you, you, I think you, I, I'm trying to get before you get it right and but you you i think you i i'm trying to get you to say what i've heard you say before which is that was that's essentially robbery they rob you of their money sure i'll say that yes they rob you of your money yeah yeah yeah i think that's what it was okay well this is always interesting to walk down these paths with you uh and yet you remain extremely positive and optimistic.

What does it look like? What is our world? Can you predict five years down the road or even three years down the road? Are you optimistic in the intermediate and near term, or is it only long term that you're optimistic? I am very optimistic in the near term because I think there is an increasing normalization of the idea of cold warfare

between states and the federal government. There is an enormous incentive for President Biden to try to bring Governor Abbott of Texas and Governor DeSantis of Florida under his thumb from his tribe. Abbott, who I don't think is particularly principled at all, but sees a big incentive in playing to his base and standing up to Washington. DeSantis does that to a whole other level. So the more you have this pressure on this system, which I regard as outdated, if it ever made sense to begin with, the healthier it's going to be for everyone else. Because when politicians work together, it's always to the detriment of the citizenry. And again, you are you predicting something are you imagining or

anticipating something in the next three to five years i'm imagining uh um president harris and it will be absolutely hilarious to watch that uh cackling buffoon in front of the podium try to bring america together it's going to be absolutely terrific absolutely that makes you that makes you optimistic i i mean i mean i try to see the world through your eyes as we were discussing earlier and i i don't see how that's optimistic that's that's the hard part for me that's one easy way that's optimistic scary when when you have a president who is regarded with derision by the populace as trump was with large section of the populace it is almost impossible for such a person to bring us

into an unnecessary war because if i'm sending my sons or daughter overseas for war it has to be someone who i respect and trust like fdr someone who's got gravitas if you have her being like we're sending troops to ukraine the number of americans who will be like over my dead body would be astronomical and it would be dead on arrival and so you'd like to see us pull out of those sorts of operations i think the american empire is a very bad idea and i one if you support the troops a great way to do that is to get them out of harm's way i had dinner with uh tulsi gabbard a couple nights ago and i don't want to speak for her but but she was lovely i mean she's as lovely as she seems in a public presentation and she has

repeatedly expressed her concern about our sort of fantasy and myth about uh our military and and um and violent conflict that that we still live in this sort of time words i used i said like we imagine everything's omaha beach and we're going to win uh and even that was much more horrible than we imagined it to have been and we do i think we live in this weird fantasy as a traitor to america even though she served in the military for many years that you hate america you're a tater apologist just it's just it's just there's no shame in the war machine it's very weird but uh here we go can i say one more thing uh we have several kids in afghanistan and no one even had to apologize for it, let alone get fired or go to jail. Like that, I think, speaks to the level of depravity of what Eisenhower called the military-industrial complex.

That, to me, is completely unconscionable. And so in three years, we have President Harris. How about eight years? Then do we just have the state leaderships? Yeah. No, we're gonna have the Republic of Texas. You're welcome to come visit if they allow you to leave your home in California.

Susan, you're welcome to come as well. I've got a nice guest room upstairs that I don't use. And I think the blue states are going to get much, much worse because there's all the pressure is all on the accelerator. If I'm using that correctly, I don't know how to drive a car and there's no mechanism to turn that boat around. God, that is so true.

The Adam, I was talking about how they just keep rolling. They just keep going. It just, it doesn't, it doesn't pull back. It doesn't decelerate. It just keeps going. So you want to go to Austin state with Mike? I make a mean goose dumplings and sauerkraut. All right. It doesn't pull back. It doesn't decelerate. It just keeps going. Susan, you want to go to Austin and stay with Mike? I make a mean goose dumplings and sauerkraut.

All right. You're in. Liberty Cabbage. Liberty Cabbage. In Texas, we call it Liberty Cabbage. We're in Austin all the time. We've got to have dinner with you for sure. Freedom fries.

Yeah. Freedom fries. The freedom fries. All right. Michael, thank you so much for joining us uh it's always a a romp and a privilege to talk to you and the white pill is the book the anarchist handbook the uh what was the one on king jong-il the uh i forget the name of that dear reader i mean these are all worth your time but uh the white pill particularly it's it's you know if you don't have familiarity with this history

you you should and this is a great way to gain some familiarity with it michael is very clear-headed he comes from that part of the world yes he has opinions but he's just reporting what what the facts of the matter really were susan anything from your stamp or wrapped up um your mic's done you know i was thinking about that you guys were talking about why the jews were not respected or whatever um the one thing about nationalism and and language is you know the jews always have their own language and wherever they go so i think that was also an issue because um it separates well they had a secret club right i always think that's a bad idea but they would speak in their own language and they would see

if you had special handshakes special greetings special language special everything and um that the armenians had that too and they were the subject of a genocide maybe for the same kind of you know but the point you're making sus Susan, maybe these cultural things that we aren't necessarily consciously aware of have great play in these sorts of extreme situations. Because I always wondered, too, you know, why they were such an outcast. All right. But also, we have a benefit coming up on Saturday. And I just put the link to where you can bid on Dr. Drew. You get a meet and greet, virtual meet and greet.

Get over there. We added three more meet and greets because we sold the first one out immediately. And we're raising money for foster kids in L.A. It's a really good group. The money goes to the right place. It really helps all the underprivileged. I, Michael, become more like Volire when i uh you know think about all these grand uh sweep sweeps of history these grand narratives i just think uh the end of candide

il faut cultiver nos jardins just you must cultivate your own you must cultivate your own gardens yeah i i have home your family albert camus had the introductory quote to The White Pill, and he very much spoke about the need for every person to have their own conscience and do what they can to make the world a better place. And if you create, you know, Rand had this quote, it's the man who fights for the future lives in it today. And I think that's a very Jewish idea,

that if you save one life, you save the world, and it's incumbent upon all of us to leave the world a better place than we found it. And I could not agree more. Are you an Ayn Rand fan too? Oh yeah yeah i own her copy of the fountainhead her copy yeah she's on the cover of the book that is crazy all right well that's why i'm coming to your house to visit we're going to be in austin in a month i would love that text me all right my friend thank you so much and i will text you we'll see in a month or so

michael malice everybody get the white pill uh we have uh head on over to hillsides.org there's a lot of other things on the auction block you can you can if you don't want to spend a lot of money and just contribute they have a lot of cool stuff on there we have uh on monday uh we have a congresswoman coming in here lauren brobert agreed to spend a little time with me she's another really interesting uh voice in the congress and i i i don't know if i'm going to say this to her but i always thought what is this what's she doing she always sort of seemed just i could not understand what she was all about uh and she seemed funny to me and then i heard her speak and she spoke to me and i thought, shit, this woman has got some stuff going on. I'd

love to talk to her some more. Brian O'Shea, private investigator March 2, March 8, Dr. Merrill Nass coming on in here. And we as we said, February 27, Lauren Brobert coming in here. And Dr. Kelly victory is working on a lot of other guests on the vaccine and COVID front. So don't worry, we still have plenty to plenty to tell you there. Anything, anybody off the top of your head, Susan, that's coming? I know we don't have them officially on the schedule yet.

Susan? We have a long list of people, but I can't think of who to talk about. Viva Frye is coming in there. There's a bunch of people that have ideas. And I was asking also that we bring back around people like Edward Dowd. We will. And Rish and people that we need to talk to again and see how things are changing so keep an eye on us again we're generally here

three o'clock Tuesday I want to get Tulsi back on here too Tulsi Gabbard in here uh we actually did yeah next week we'll be here on Monday at one o'clock pacific is that correct I don't know that's what it looks like to me that's what's on the schedule oh for brobert yeah because she only had a certain window of time so we we brobert there's only one r at the end on her name we'll get that right before she gets here and it looks like we have a fry on tuesday and then i think the rest of the week we're have yet to see well as we as we said, we have a, I'm not sure on the first, did you put that up there already?

Caleb on the first? He's got the whole list. No, we have the second. Some of them haven't been fully confirmed, so I didn't put it on the schedule yet. Okay. Got it.

We'll know soon. March 8th is Merrill Moss. We'll check it out. We'll get something interesting for you. We'll see you then. Ta-ta. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment.

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