Ask Dr. Drew - After COVID Debacle, How Can Public Health Systems Regain Our Trust? w/ Wilk Wilkinson & Chef Gruel – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 429

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

After the COVID debacle – with its unscientific lockdowns, unreliable vaccines, and ridiculous masking mandates – how can public health systems ever regain our trust? Wilk Wilkinson hosts the ‘Derate The Hate’ podcast, which focuses on civil dialogue across political differences. Wilkinson serves on the Board of Advisors at the Prohuman Foundation and is a volunteer leader with Braver Angels, a grassroots organization dedicated to reducing political polarization. Find his podcast on all major platforms and follow him at https://x.com/WilksOpinion Chef Andrew Gruel appeared as a judge on Food Network’s “Food Truck Face Off”, as a host of FYI’s “Say It to My Face!” and is the founder of American Gravy Restaurant Group. After the COVID-19 pandemic forced many restaurants to shut down, Gruel started a fund in December 2020 to raise money for out-of-work restaurant industry employees, raising over $230,000 in the first three weeks. His latest book “Andrew Gruel’s Family Cookbook” is available soon. Follow Chef Gruel at https://x.com/ChefGruel and learn more at https://chefgruel.com 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors  • CAPSADYN - Get pain relief with the power of capsaicin from chili peppers – without the burning! Capsadyn's proprietary formulation for joint & muscle pain contains no NSAIDs, opioids, anesthetics, or steroids. Try it for 15% off at https://drdrew.com/capsadyn • FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at https://drdrew.com/fatty15 • CHECK GENETICS - Your DNA is the key to discovering the RIGHT medication for you. Escape the big pharma cycle and understand your genetic medication blueprint with pharmacogenetic testing. Save $200 with code DRDREW at https://drdrew.com/check • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at https://drdrew.com/paleovalley • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, welcome. Welcome, everyone. Chef Rule joins us again today. He's got some interesting insights into RFK and chefs and restaurants and also what's going on in the California, let's see what he calls it, the new payroll tax to cover Sacramento's fiduciary corruption and negligence. I love it. But first, we're going to speak to Wilk Wilkinson, host of the Derate the Hate podcast, founded his website, which is, I'm going to give it to you right now,

which is wilksworld.com, W-I-L-K-S. You can follow him. Oh, I'm sorry. Also, deratethehate.com. Wilk's Opinion on X is where you can follow him as well. Wilkes Opinion. And he wants to get into, we're going to get into some of the solutions that have, I hope, that have been left over from the massive amount of distrust left behind by the debacle that was COVID. Stay with us.

We'll be right with you after this. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f***'s sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that?

I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say.

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capsaicin creams to patients over the years but other capsaicin creams burn your skin that's what makes capsaicin so unique in In clinical trials, Capsodent has actually been demonstrated not to burn. I've been using Capsodent to relieve my pain in my hands and my wrist from carpal tunnel syndrome and arthritis. The results have been amazing. I use it every day during my show and I highly recommend it. Get the pain relief you need from various sources, even back aches, sprains, bruises even. Order now at capsidin.com slash drew to get a 15% discount plus free shipping. That is C-A-P-S-A-D-Y-N capsidin.com slash D-R-E-W. And as I was saying, Wilk Wilkinson is the host of Do You Rate the Hate podcast, focusing on dialogue.

Imagine that. Discourse, public speech, free speech. He serves on the board of advisors of the Pro-Human Foundation. He volunteered with Braver Angels. And he is, gosh, I thought he was on a couple other things too. We'll get it from him.

Wilk Wilkinson, thank you and welcome to the program. It's a real honor, man. I appreciate being here. Thank you so much. You betcha. So first tell us about Derate the Hate. So Derate the Hate is a podcast I started back in 2020 with the mission statement of bettering the world one attitude at a time.

It's one of these things where I saw the toxicity in the world just getting out of hand, knew that through personal accountability, through personal mindset, we could start to rebuild our way of doing things. And it's been quite a ride. And what were you doing before this? Or what do you do for, is there, you know, what's your sort of background? So my background, Drew, is actually in transportation.

I was a truck driver for several years and now I manage truck drivers by trade and do this thing, the mindset work, the depolarization work, the conducting of civil conversations work on the side. It's more of a passion project for me to volunteer in this depolarization space and like I said

try to better the world in which we live so it's definitely been something what are you coming up against? how is it going? what is the experience like? what are you worried about? were you having success? were you having resistance?

well the resistance comes from people who obviously just don't want to have conversations. They don't want to step outside of their silos. People have found themselves, especially in the age of COVID, becoming far more comfortable in their own bubbles, in their own silos, and not wanting to have discussions, especially about contentious issues. It's something that we face across the spectrum when it comes to issues, whether it be the class divide or the racial divide or the COVID divide. We've become all too comfortable in the age of social media

with attacking those we don't agree with, but not having actual conversations with those we disagree with. So how do you get them in? How do you get them to converse? And what are they, you know, what's the experience like? Well, it's really about, Drew, it's really about convincing people of the importance of a conversation.

One of the things that I've done is gone out and sought out some of the most diametrically opposed figures in our society today. The biggest example, obviously, is Dr. Francis Collinsattacharya, who is obviously now, as some people will understand, especially some of your viewers and listeners, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya is on the short list I said, one of the biggest projects of my life. And to do that, it's really about stressing the importance of the conversation. Because as my friend Monica Guzman from Braver Angels says, are those who are underrepresented in our life will be overrepresented in our minds and our imaginations. When people are not having that conversation, Drew, they start to make up things in their mind about who this person is, what this person thinks, what their motivations are. And that's where we get into that ugly place, right? That ignorance is a self-perpetuating cycle.

And with that ignorance comes fear. And then that fear then develops into hatred. And that hatred eventually can end up in violence. And that's what we're trying to stem. We want to get away from that ugliness and promote these conversations. Just because it's a contentious topic does not mean it has to be a contentious conversation.

And that's how we stem the tide of fear. That's how we stem the tide of hatred. And that's how we stay away from these ugly, ugly battles. I mean, we've seen, everybody's seen it. Anybody who's on social media, anybody watches the news, there is a concerted effort on so many people's part out there, whether it be those in the media, whether it be those in politics or those outrage entrepreneurs that are just out there trying to keep us divided. Well, they do it for a reason. Number one, it sells soap, right?

Division sells soap. It's an old saying, but I'm just a guy out here, Drew, who's trying to make civility cool again, right? I'm just trying to show people that our conversations, and by starting those conversations, we can get away from a lot of that ugliness. How did this occur to you? Do this. Well, I was a very toxic person for a very long time. I was a very angry person for a very long time. I had a lot of personal animus from things that happened in my childhood and the things that I had, didn't have, wanted, couldn't get. And I spent a lot of my time miserable. And then I went on this, uh, personal accountability

journey and, and, and really started to realize that, that I had the, I had the tools within me to get beyond all that anger, all the animus. And, and tell me a little more about that personal accountability. It's a, it sounds like a, like a code name for something. What was that? Well, personal accountability means I have the ability within my brain, as Stephen Covey says or said, the ability to choose my response, my personal responsibility. I have the ability to choose my response.

So it's not about what happens. I'm going to interrupt you and just say, but to me, that's code for cognitive behavioral therapy, 12-step, religious, spiritual practices, all of the above. Were you getting into these things? I would say all of the above, right? I read a lot of books. I mean, it was no standard therapy, no 12-step program, though I've studied the approaches of Al-Anon and Alcoholics Anonymous, Codependence Anonymous, things like that. I've gone through a lot of that stuff and studied a lot of that. And then a spiritual guy, I'm a conservative Christian guy, Drew. And so, you know, read the Bible

and have gone through the Bible and then books like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People or Man's Search for Meaning or Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. These things were all instrumental in my journey to- Okay, and what started you?

Because that's another kind of interesting thing to me. When people make a turn, usually there's a moment, a bottom or a something. Where did the turn come? I see what you're doing. I get it now. But where did that moment of change occur? So that moment of change for me came when I saw the ramping up of toxicity in the social media atmosphere. I'm not somebody who had ever paid attention to politics in my early adult life. But as I started to see things after 9-11 and I started to see the animus between parties and then I saw that ugliness growing. And then when the onset of social media or the popularity of social media started growing in the teens, the 20 teens, you know, and then I started seeing this anonymity, the ability to be outraged in an anonymous way and say the most ugly of things to people.

I started getting caught up in that. And I started feeding on that anger and that ugliness online. But then I also started to realize personally that this was the ugliest thing that I could possibly be getting involved in. And it started to affect my life and my mindset personally. So getting beyond that became a personal goal of mine. I still wanted to kind of show people how wrong they were, people that I disagreed with. And I did it in a lot of very poor ways. And I realized, I kind of had this epiphany one day because I was going to start this haters happy hour and start pointing out all the ugly.

Well, I thought so. And I was going to start pointing out in a podcast format, how all the different ugly things that people were saying to me. I know you've heard them before or heard things like this before. But people telling me, you know, they hope my house burns down or they hope these terrible things happen to my family. And just all of this just ugly, ugly stuff. And I'm like, the direction that I'm going is not the right direction. So I started to do this thing and started to feel good stuff and and i'm like right the the direction that i'm going is not the right direction so i started to do this thing and started feel good stuff and and mindset stuff and started talking about the things that i was using personally to uh to level out my own anger and to to do that

and then being somebody who just believes in the tenets of freedom uh i i i found that the ultimate freedom, kind of like, you know, Viktor Frankl talks about is there's only one thing that I really have, and that's the ability to control my own mind and how I react to things. And that's kind of how I ended up in this depolarization space, Drew. It was one of these things where I was not going to allow all of these things outside of my control to control me and control my emotions. So- Yeah, I get it. That's what made that my journey.

So I get it. And so I have two questions. First of all, did you get Jay and Francis Collins together? I don't remember whether that happened or not. Did that happen? There was a brief meeting and Jay's talked about it, and I know I've talked to Francis about that as well. So I will say that there was a very brief meeting of which I can't discuss the details,

but it's one of these things that the world didn't expect to happen. Well, and Jay is such a lovely lovely human being i'm certain he kept it in the right context and things so that's wonderful number one um and jay let's remind ourselves that he had that big conference up at stanford with the exact same goal i don't know if you were at that conference but the goal was to just create discourse and people are allowed to disagree so they can use dialogue or dialectic to ascend to something like the truth. Shocking. Consult your Socrates, everybody. And so my question to you is, do you have like a set of prescriptions? I mean, I always feel like you should have a reading list

and you should have a set of daily practice or something. Do you have anything like that? Sure. I mean, there's a number of things. And I start with a baseline of gratitude and personal accountability, like I said. But when I start talking about gratitude, I talk about gratitude for a very specific reason because I think gratitude is the genesis of happiness. And when people start to seek out things that they're grateful for,

that becomes ingrained in their mindset every day. The reticular activating system will then start to seek out points of affirmation constantly throughout the day, and you'll begin to see many more things that you're grateful for. The other thing is, and this all ties into the personal accountability thing, but trying to stay away from that perpetual victim mentality. There are so many forces out there, Drew, that feed on that fog model, the fear, outrage, and grievance. We never saw anything more evident than that fear, outrage, and grievance model than the time over the last four years, four and a half years, uh, during the COVID pandemic, right? It was constant fear porn. Uh, it was constant. Uh, we, we've got to scare everybody. We've got to scare the moms. We've got to scare the old people. We've got to scare the kids. We've got to,

I mean, it was constant fear porn and trying to keep people, people scared. And then by, by keeping some people scared, we could keep them outraged. And then at that point, then they can play on those grievances. Not to say that there isn't real grievances, but there are real and perceived grievances. And there were grievance grifters out there around every corner using that. So using your own mind, your own strength within your going to live the life that I want to live based on what I know is real and what I know is in my backyard. And I'm going to work on that and not pretend like everything that's happening in Washington, D.C. or in some faraway place is affecting me personally at my kitchen table. That is for me. Keep going. Yeah, that is for me one of the biggest things. Like I said, in this age of social media, Drew, and in the things that we see online, far too many people have started to bring in those things.

I'm a Midwestern guy, right? I grew up in small town USA in the middle of this country and the vast majority, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, the vast majority of those things we just weren't seeing in my backyard. You know, I had conversations with nurses and doctors and things from outstate Minnesota that had never seen a case of COVID and didn't see one for the first several months that this thing was on mainland, but yet their hospital was closed down

and they couldn't see their patients and they're doing online stuff. And it was just, you know, I'm having these conversations with people and I'm like, okay, we have to learn again how to compartmentalize things and realize that not everything we see online and not everything we see in the news

is happening in our backyard. And once we learn to compartmentalize that and then emotionally steer ourselves into the right place, we can actually make real progress. We've seen far too many people, Drew, who have just eradicated relationships within their lives because of things that they saw online, whether it be relationships with their own parents or their children or their in-laws or people that they've been friends with for their entire lives.

I've heard the stories. I've had conversations with these people. And if somebody could have just gotten to them ahead of time and said, hey, let's have this conversation before you're ready to throw this away. A maternal or paternal relationship that you will never, ever be able to rebuild.

Let's find out why this person believes what they believe. What is it about their life experience that got them to this point? If we have those conversations preemptively. Something happened to the wire under the table here. It's affecting my earphones. Sorry, keep going. Okay. Yeah, if we have these conversations preemptively

and don't allow things that are outside of our control to control us, control our relationships and destroy these relationships that we've had for our whole lives. I mean, obviously I I've seen these things. They destroy people's jobs. They destroy people's finances. I had a conversation on my podcast with an amazing author and journalist,

Bonnie Christian, who had a friend who, you know, because of the whole QAnon thing and the ugliness that was surrounding that and whatever, kind of sold off everything that they had and moved into a camper. And instead of buying this duplex that could have provided them income in retirement, it's these kind of things, these things that are outside of our control that I see so many people allowing to control themselves, control them now,

that it's just one of the ugliest things. And I think we, as human beings, need to do whatever we can to stem the tide of that polarity, that toxic polarity that people have allowed to take strong hold on. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I love the fog frame. I love the idea of a grievance grifter. It's the first time I've heard that term.

So how do we get people out of a perpetual victim position? Because they get so much reinforcement for that. And as you said, social media is sort of the place that you then act out once you've been victimized. Is there, is it time for a new great awakening? I mean, what do we do? I'm thinking prescriptively. I mean, certainly what you have is what people need, but how do we get them on the boat? So prescriptively, I would say, you know, it's really going to be through an education platform of sorts. Not that I, you know, I'm really, organizations out there that try to capitalize upon people's grievances and their fears and the things that outrage them is we need to have, well, and that's why I'm part of organizations like Braver Angels and the Pro-Human Foundation, showing people that through conversation and real, true, curious listening, you know, through true, curious conversation, we can help people through those things that are hurting them, right? And the concept of grievance grifter,

the concept of grievance grifter, I've had some incredible conversations with this and I've had people that I respect in very great fashion try to push back on me on the whole idea of grievances. But we know that grievances, both real and perceived,

people can capitalize on those. And those people that capitalize on those are really trying to keep people in that grievance or victim mentality. But again, let me give you an example that I always think of, and so many of the people that I've spoken with, Drew, talk about. And that's the, you know, when we talk about the racial divide and the way that so many people in this country have perpetuated that racial divide is to constantly tell somebody that they have to work twice as hard to get half as much. Now, I'm not saying that that's not the case in certain instances, but to continuously

tell somebody that, going back to what I was saying about the reticular activating system, if you're constantly telling somebody, as in books like Stamped by Ibram X. Kendi, if you're constantly telling somebody that there's a racist under every bed and a racist hiding in every closet just waiting to bring you down. If that's part of your platform, what you're actually doing is enforcing a person's reticular activating system to seek out those points of affirmation for that to happen. Now, who's going to be happy in a constant mindset that everything around them is out to get them?

Like I said, gratitude is the genesis of happiness. And if the only thing that your brain can work on is those things that are feeding into your grievances, whether they be real or perceived, if the only thing that your brain is focusing on is that, that's exactly what you're going to see. If you come to an intersection and there's a person over here, over there, and over there, and one of those people cuts you off, now your brain is going to tell you it's because

of the color of my skin or it's because of my religion or whatever. You know, one of my favorite people, and I know you know him, Drew, is Dennis Prager. And he talks about, I believe it was either his father or his grandfather, somebody cut him off in the car and he's like anti-Semite, right? And I love that example because when that is the thing that's on top of your mind all the time,

that everything wrong that happens in your life is because of some immutable characteristic, you know, whether because you're a Jew or because of some racial category that somebody's placed you in or racialized you as, now all of a sudden everything that goes wrong is because of that particular thing. Those types of learning patterns are what brings us down as a society. It's what stands in the way of our true shared humanity and true happiness in so many cases. Relative of something called the fundamental attribution error, which is that Prager's father attributes that guy anti-Semitism when, in fact, he may just be rushing his wife to the hospital, you know what I mean, with the pregnancy error. Who knows what? I mean, you can't attribute motivation and quality of the individual based on some random behavior. It's just the fact that we're so locked and loaded

for anything negative to happening to us to have some explanation that is in relation to us. And that's also narcissism, which we need to learn our way out of. We need to drop that. We got to kind of wrap up this conversation. Give us like the top three things you think people should be doing as we leave the conversation. What do you want them to do? What do you want to leave them with? Number one, Drew, is have curious conversations.

We have to get back to a time when we can engage with people that we disagree with and do so in a non-contentious way. So have curious conversations and really listen with the intent to understand before we reply, right? Far too many people nowadays are getting into conversations with the intention to just spew their point of view and not really listen to what the other person is saying. People will be far more inclined to listen to you if they know that you've listened and understood what they have to say. Number two, not every conversation has to be about politics, right? I long for a time when we could have conversations and have cold beers in the driveway with our friends that just did not have to do with politics. You know, probably half the text messages and emails I get now are, did you see this or did you hear this or is this on your radar?

And I'm like, okay, there is a lot more else. There's a lot more things in this world going on than just politics. You know, and then true civic engagement. You know, this country is hungry for a civic renewal and to be engaged with people of all stripes, right? So get involved in organizations like Braver Angels, which is the largest grassroots movement out there working towards civic renewal and depolarization. And then Pro-Human Foundation is another one. Like I said, you mentioned in your intro, and I greatly appreciate that,

that I'm on the board of advisors for the Pro-Human Foundation. Pro-Human Foundation is another organization that is absolutely incredible and doing incredible work to promote our shared humanity. You know, we all as individuals are very unique and we all as individuals are very unique and we all as individuals have failed in certain aspects. But as long as we can look to each other and have

conversations with each other, understanding that we all want the same basic things and we're all human beings, we can do incredible things together. So that's really the big thing for me, Drew, is have conversations and get involved. Get involved with organizations that are out there trying to build a positive relationship instead of falling victim to all the ugliness in our social media and internet ecosystem. Well, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad we spent the time to have this conversation. I hope people reach out on X, Wilk's opinion. Listen to the podcast, Derate the Hate. Do what Wilk is suggesting.

Get involved with organizations like Braver Angels. And hopefully we'll stay in touch with you. And do please let us know how things are going and what we can do to help support. Still grateful for the time, Drew, and keep on doing what you're doing. I appreciate you a lot. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.

The Braver Angels title caused me to want to quote, gosh, Lincoln's inaugural address where he brings up the braver angels, but I don't think I can get right to the quote very quickly. His first inaugural was much longer than I thought it was. It's not like the second inaugural, which is just on the wall of Lincoln Memorial. Okay. So we're going to have Andrew Grohl in here a second. Do follow Wilk as well. We appreciate that. My goodness.

Wow. This can't really be his first inaugural, can it? In any event, the Braver Angels is from a quote from Abraham Lincoln. The Braver Angels of our nature. Much like the, is this, well, I'll look up these quotes during the break. How about that? I want to bring up one other thing that Wilk just said there

which was people are you know pimping him did you hear about this are you up on that I realized how sideways we have all gone when a colleague and friend of mine was named as the Surgeon General and everybody had an opinion about this

and I thought this reminds me of when everybody had an opinion about this. And I thought, this reminds me of when everybody had an opinion about ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine. Those were words you had never heard before, the vast majority of you. And yet within a day, you had an opinion about it. That's insane. So I want you to consider, when was the last time that you were aware of when and who a president appointed for the Surgeon General? Did you ever know during the ramp up to a presidential administration who their Surgeon General's pick was? And if you did know by some peculiarity. Because it was a friend of yours. Did you have an opinion about it? Why do you feel necessary to have an opinion about an appointment to a position? And by the way,

those of you that have an opinion about who should be in that Surgeon General's position, tell me in three sentences what the job is, what the Surgeon General even does, let alone who should fill that position. I don't even know. And your previous opinions about previous presidential administrations whom they had appointed in the run-up to the presidency. Yes, I understand you know who Jerome the presidency. Yes, I understand you know who Jerome Adams is. Yes, I know that you knew eventually who the Surgeon General is. And once they were doing their job, okay, have an opinion about it. But now you have an opinion? The fact that you're even aware of who was appointed to the Surgeon General and that you then have an opinion about it, you should check yourself.

You need to check yourself. That's all I'm saying. All right. We're going to get Chef Andrew Grohl in here in just a second. We'll take a little break. Be right back. Pay attention. Thank you.

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or 20% off when you subscribe. And do subscribe. You will run out fast. We are constantly begging for more here. So, hey, Rayski, did you hear me say you have no right to know who the Surgeon General appointment is? Did I say anything about your rights and privileges? What I said was, check yourself if you have a strong opinion about it and why this appointment, suddenly, you know everything there is to know about that position and who should fill it and somebody whom you don't know who is filling it. You have an opinion about her as well. By the way, let's

keep in mind one of the things we all emphasize here. We like it when people change their opinions and when they apologize. That's a good thing. That's somebody we want on our team. What in the world made you jump through to I have no right to know? You know I'm a free speech absolutist, and I remain right there. So you have the right to know and say anything and everything. And finally, let me quote from the first inaugural, because these words are so amazing. Like I said, you can read the second inaugural in the Gettysburg Address on either side of the Lincoln Memorial. But the first inaugural is a long defense of why he believes, Abraham Lincoln, believes that there's no such thing as a dissolution of the union.

You can't do that. It's a contract among equals. And you can't just step out of a contract because you're not happy anymore. You can't do that. So he never acknowledged the Confederacy. He always called it the Confederacy so-called. And he said the states were out of their natural alignment with the Union. That's how he thought about these things. And so at the end of a long argument, his first inaugural, which by the way, yeah, I think he read it. Sometimes some of this stuff, like the first day of the Union and stuff, somebody reads on his behalf, but he read this one. I'm loathe to close we are not enemies but friends we must not be enemies this is very

impertinent to what wilk wilkinson was talking about even to you raisky we must not be enemies though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection the mystic cords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land will yet swell the chorus of the Union when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature. And if you're not touched by that, I don't know what to say. So, Caleb, is Andrew there yet? Did I jump ahead on that? Or is he with us? I'll bring him in.

Andrew Gruhl. Let me give the little intro. I think everyone knows Andrew. But hold on. Wait a minute. You can follow him on X at Chef Gruhl, G-R-U-E-L. Don't miss American Gravy Thanksgiving edition coming up 9pm on The First TV

you can download the app on your phone also watch on Roku or DirecTV Chef Andrew Gruhl and Lauren deliver solutions to your holiday preparation challenges and I gotta tell you

oh and there's the cookbook, the family cookbook. I just want to congratulate you both on having sort of cracked a code that makes somebody like me, who's just totally overwhelmed by food and preparation stuff. It looks, I genuinely, I'm drawn in by what you guys are doing. I'm cracking up. It looks, yeah, I feel like I could, I could do it. And if I could do it, I'm cracking up. It looks- You're learning how to cook. Yeah, I feel like I could do it. And if I could do it, anybody could do it. I think you could do that grilled cheese sandwich. I could do that grilled cheese sandwich.

But go ahead, Andrew, tell us more about the stream. Oh, no, I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, you know, we just took some basics, right? Especially for this Thanksgiving episode. We wanted to make it approachable, but also crave worthy, make it look easy. Lauren is the perfect partner in crime here. And we've got the kids in the final piece of this episode, putting together some recipes from our family cookbook. Really at the end of the day, cooking is easy. I always say

cooking is like playing basketball and the hoop is the size of the court. The fun is in the preparation. And even if you screw up a little bit with the execution, so what? It's better than half the stuff you're getting off the shelves. Bring the family together, friends, anybody, and just go have it. And look, I make myself very available, almost too available, Lauren would say. So if you ever have any questions, all you got to do is message me, tag me, hit me up. I'm like just a walking cookbook ready to respond. Well, and it's more than that. It's your guys' enthusiasm for the whole experience. I watched, and I start watching and I can't stop. And so the one, you had a roast

or a prime rib sort of roast. I didn't want to see the beginning of it. I jumped in about halfway and then I couldn't stop. And both, you're like, oh my God, this is mean. I'm like, I want, I frankly drove to Huntington Beach to see what that was. Oh, you brought us some beef last time you were here and we went nuts. Ridiculous. this mean? I'm like, I want, I frankly drove to Huntington beach to see what that was. Oh, you brought us some beef last time you were here and we went nuts.

Ridiculous. We ate every bite of it. Yeah. So, but, but anyway, it's, it's your enthusiasm that's contagious. Yeah. It's a lot. It's what we love. I mean, we run restaurants and obviously we love the people element of running restaurants. Cause I always say business is 95% people and I spend 5% of the time cooking. But when we get back into the kitchen, we remember why we ended up basically building our life around food to begin with. We came together through food. I mean, it's the basis of our personal relationship in a marriage and how we got together and it just kind of flows through everything. So. And I think we got, we got to Lauren is very um unassuming right we have to give her props I mean she's a she is very skilled in her own right and she's understated I think people need to really

understand that she is the engine that moves everything especially when to the research and studying and understanding you know it's funny She was the one who brought to our restaurants years ago the idea that we needed to be removing the seed oils. So I kind of connected the flavor piece with what she brought to the table from a nutrition perspective. And it's been a game changer for us. Yeah.

So let's all give a nod to Lauren. I see her. I don't know why she wants to be like, she's demure. Isn't that the new, she's very demure. She's very demure. Very, very demure. But listen, let's talk a little RFK. And I want to get into the California debacle too,

but just something that's been on my mind a little bit. Tell people about your training with seafood. And I wondered what your sort of wish list was as it pertains to that training and your knowledge there that RFK could bring to us. Definitely. Well, seafood is something that's often not thought about when it comes to the food system because we don't consume that much seafood in the American diet. It's only 16, 17 pounds per person. Alternatively, as I mentioned, I think last time we talked, it's like 100 or 200 pounds per person per capita yearly in places like Japan, Korea, countries that don't necessarily have issues deep in the United States is that we're one of the only countries that, number one, doesn't have a regulatory framework set up on a federal level in order to implement a national aquaculture strategy. And I don't mean aquaculture in regards to the bad word that we think of as fish farming, but even just a strategy whereby we can actually catch and release fish into the ocean, stock fortification.

They do it in Alaska, but that's managed by the Department of Fish and Game. There's a lot of opportunity in this blue economy. But furthermore, we import so much seafood. Upwards of 80% of the seafood that we consume is imported, and yet we have the most abundant fisheries of any country in the world. Our exclusive economic zone covers a majority of the ocean. And the Magnuson-Stevenson Act, which basically mandates on a federal level that we have to monitor and maintain a biomass that's at its maximum sustainable yield when it comes to seafood, creates that bounty of fresh seafood. But yet we export all of that only to be processed overseas and sold at a lower dollar and then maybe brought back. But then we buy the

junk from overseas and we eat it. And a lot of times it's full of chemicals. It's not even inspected by the FDA. They only inspect like 2% of the seafood imports. So if we can actually keep that seafood here in the States, get people to eat more seafoods, which will help that omega-6, omega-3 imbalance, but also help in regards to innovation when it comes to things like multi-trophic integrated aquaculture, where you can grow in urban areas, both vegetable gardens in conjunction with fresh seafood in a vertical sense, and it can be organic and clean with a chemical-free feed. We have the technology for that. And every time in the United States that we've tried to implement that, projects like the Kona Kampachi out on the coast of Hawaii and some of the other kind of spherical

open ocean aquaculture programs, it got permitted to hell and they shipped it to Costa Rica, to Mexico. It never ends up being our, us being able to reap the bounty of it. So that's a huge piece of the food system. Why not? Regulated by whom? Who over-regulates it? The National Marine Fishery Service, which falls under NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association, but then also in conjunction with the FDA and the USDA in regards to the inspections and the overall food safety piece of it. And then you run into the state issue, right?

I talk about like, sometimes you can get things pushed through on a federal level, but then the states are just going to put the wall up anyway. So there's got to be, you know, communication between all the different regulatory bodies. So is there like a document you could put together that's not overwhelming, that's like a paragraph that we could shuttle in to RFK or to Macari or somebody who would get under there. I know they're going to have a lot on their plate, but I feel like if we could get a comprehensive little playbook and not a manual, just like a declaration of some type

that they could look at and go, oh, we can do these things. And, you know, is there something like that in your mind? Of course, because they did it with alternative and renewable energy, wind farms out in the ocean. I mean, that is the document. They did it for themselves in terms of that alternative energy piece. So we can do the exact same thing when it comes to fish farming, open ocean, aquaculture, and doing it the right way, right? That's the key. Because already 60% of the seafood we consume is farmed. It's just farmed overseas. So the irony there is we're like, well, we don't want to do it in our waters, but instead we buy it from countries where they're destroying their environment and

they're using a lot of chemicals. It's the reality of what we eat. So let's do it the right way and do it here in the States. And I think that ties back in with a general awareness as to where our food comes from, what we're eating and what's in the food that we're eating. And that's the education piece. Well, and it's also, you know, I'm looking at the HHS and I'm looking at some of the priorities that RFK is talking about, is there something that you think they should be doing systematically as it pertains to chefs and restaurants? Yes, 100%, because most of the food that we consume, Americans, or at least a lion's share of it, is done so in restaurants or through food distribution. The food distribution supply chain is very, very, very consolidated,

especially after the Food Safety Modernization Act that Obama signed into law in 2011, where it even further consolidated the food producers and distributors in the name of food safety. That disallows a lot of the local purveyors, a lot of these independents who are creating much better products to distribute into restaurants. So we're almost stuck with really dealing with the big, massive food manufacturers. And even if we wanted to go seed oil-free, the amount of time and effort it would take is so, it's so onerous that they, that restaurants don't do it. So I think that there's easy ways we can, we can decentralize that. But I think the mere education, right? I talk about how we have like a push-pull marketing effect. So it's got to come down from government, and that's probably deregulation, but then up from the consumers.

The consumers need to demand it, and that starts with education. Right. We don't know what to demand. We don't know what to demand, and I fear that my head swims a little bit when I hear you laying some wisdom on us because I feel like we we got to distill this down to like a three point, you know, here are five points or something that people can really hang on to and look at repeatedly.

Something that they can really, you know, repeatedly demand until the government hears it. Yeah. And if I was, you know, and if I was telling somebody to make three, you know, ask three questions, right? What are the types of fats that food's cooked in in a restaurant setting? When you're buying seafood, where does it come from?

Is it U.S. wild seafood? And otherwise, where is it coming from, right? And then number three is just understanding where the meat and the vegetables are coming from, trying to support those businesses that are supporting local farmers. But that doesn't mean demarketing those that aren't. Just because they don't have the education doesn't mean that they're doing it purposefully the wrong way. Gosh, I was thinking about the seed oil. Do you think we're going to get tallow in McDonald's or other places?

I mean, I think that if the demand is there, it will, right? Because that's why we got to do that we feel helpless we don't we don't we're not in it like you guys are we it just feels like oh what am I who am I going to go to am I going to talk to the manager in the little hat at the McDonald's you know in South Pasadena how am I going to get this done it feels overwhelming it does feel overwhelming but that's also one of the beauties of social media nowadays is that you can communicate with the CEO of McDonald's on X or utilize kind of Elon's free highway to get in touch with some of the important decision makers.

But I think just voting with our dollars, right? So where we spend our dollars is more sometimes than our votes. But if you think about it, the reason McDonald's switched was because of a demand-based issue just like this when they moved over from beef tallow originally into some of the seed oils or the hydrogenated fats. So the same rubric can apply on the flip side when we go back and change it. And it might not what McDonald's did. Are they listening to you? Do you get all the way through to RFK or anybody on that team? Or make sure you do if it's not happening yet.

I have not. However, I will say this. I'm also a little bit more quiet in the background because I know there's a lot of people that are hounding both people from the RFK and Trump camp. And, you know, it's so funny you brought up the thing about the Surgeon General because I completely empathize with that. And the same right now is applying to food. Suddenly, everybody left, right and center is an expert when it comes to food. And I think to myself, where were you two years ago, right? Like when we were talking about this. But I also, you know, taking Wilk Wilkins' positive, you know, segment with you, I think, but it is also a good thing that people know about it.

Like it's good that people are talking about the Surgeon General. They just need to do it with us. Yes, that's right. That's right. Less fight. I don't mind that you're talking about it, but I want you to understand the context in which you have this absolute certitude about your opinion about this individual whom you've never heard of before,

you've never met before, you don't know what the job is, you've never had an opinion before in any other presidency. You have to be careful because it starts to sound like Trump derangement to me. And whenever people are hysterical and I just go, okay, well, we got to deescalate all that. We have to get all that out and get, as you're saying, the positive stuff in and start talking about positive change.

Let me think what the other questions I have. Oh yeah. I wanted you to talk about the nonsense about your payroll taxes. Tell the story because it's just disgusting. Welcome to California, everybody. So we run our payroll bi-weekly and Lauren and I are always playing this little game of math where, oh, can we get our, you know, we want our payroll to be at a certain percentage. We want to make sure that our team members get the hours they need. So it's always a fun equation in the business world. And this applies to any industry. So last couple of weeks, we've been slower, cut certain hours. Everybody was happy. And we're like, okay, our payroll is going to come in at this number. And she runs payroll. And she's like, Andrew, it's $2,000 more. Now, mind you, at this time of year,

2,000 on our payroll is a significant percentage, 15, 20%. So I'm thinking that's got to be wrong. We call it the payroll company. And long story short, they explained to us, look, the government defaulted on the unemployment loan that they got from the federal government. The state government defaulted. And the due date was like November 20th. So in order to meet the standard and pay back a certain amount so that they weren't in complete default, they basically, all the businesses had to pay in order to get the state in compliance with the federal government. It was California, it was the Virgin Islands, and it was New York.

So there were three areas or sectors, if you will. So we end up paying $2,000 more because the federal government defaulted on their loan, or the state government defaulted on their loan from the federal government. Yeah. Yeah. We got to get business owners out there talking about this. There's got to be massive outrage all over the place. It's just so ridiculous. It's just... Go ahead. The thing for us that's frustrating is you know, go ahead. The thing for us that's frustrating is remember back in 2020 when they shut, when they closed outdoor dining and they fired all these workers, there were no unemployment benefits available

to give the workers, which is why we started our fund and raised over a half a million dollars to pay people's rent, electricity, et cetera, before they could actually get the unemployment benefits. So for me, it's very, very personal. And then to have to foot the bill four years later because of their ineptitude without any notice at all. I mean, that's just absurd. It's grotesque incompetence. It is grotesque. And you see Newsom out there dancing around in all these parts of the state where things were flipping a little bit. Oh, what's going on here? How could this be happening?

Dude, you're in charge, Mr. Newsom. It's your government, and it is failing miserably. And it feels to me like it's going to go, it's going to approach bankruptcy. I don't understand how they, what do we got here, Caleb? What is this? Oh, this is Andrew talking about this. This is insane.

I can't believe that's happening. That's wild. I'm Kuhl talking about this. This is insane. I can't believe that's happening. That's wild. I'm glad I moved out of California. This is ridiculous. Well, I'll also say that this comes on the heels of Newsom going on this huge media tour bragging about his budget surplus two or three years ago. Remember, it was this huge budget surplus.

And they just went ham on how great he was and what a wonderful leader he is because of this budget surplus, which it turns out was just fudging numbers on a spreadsheet. Well, not only was that fudging, they're always fudging in terms of their retirement liabilities and all that

nonsense. And that really comes to, if that is really looked at, this is just, this is incompetence. This is government not doing its basic job. Why do we have a government? Why do we, except, you know, to manage the infrastructure, which is complete decay. They just do nothing right.

I can't think of one thing that they do properly that benefits the people of this state. But let me get off that for a second. What should people do since you're about food and relationships around food and you and your family are a great example of this and the family cookbook with Caleb

you should put up again is another opportunity to take advantage of food and family. What should we do in this age of Trump derangement? I just talked to somebody a couple hours ago who was told he strangely he was in California and he voted for President-elect Trump and his family is in Florida and they were very anti-Trump, which is kind of interesting when you're not living in a state where all the policies of a blue government are in place. It's easy to have opinions about what it's like to be under a blue government, but be that as it may. He was told not to come to Thanksgiving because he was honest about having voted for ex-President Trump. So what should we do with that Trump derangement element

in our holiday season? I'll tell you what I said. I said, be a bigger person, show up. But I don't know that that will always be met the way you would hope. Well, look, I'm going to be biased here and say food is the great unifier.

So I think show up and show up with some good food. And trust me, you can break down some barriers by way of that good food. I don't remember who said it, but it was like whenever you're right, you're wrong. So even if you prove somebody wrong and you're right, you're still wrong in that person's eyes. You know, we try and instill that i want to i'm going to interrupt you and say that when i always say when it's in a related context of a relationship uh when when you win the relationship loses there aren't winners and losers in a dialectic with the relationship but but back to the good food i mean you know we talked about you and lauren for a week didn't we susan after you guys left because of the meat you left behind and so so to that point, I guess I don't know how to say this in a subtle way.

Make sure you bring good food. Make sure it's really good. So how do we do that? It was really good. And talk recipes. Talk recipes too. I mean, I'm really not kidding around when I say food is the great unifier because when it comes down to food, and I joke about this,

you go on an airplane and you tell somebody you're, when I tell someone I'm a chef, they will talk my ear off the whole entire airplane ride. I started telling people that I'm a dentist just so that they don't start showing me their crowns on the plane. You know, nobody wants nothing against the dentist, but it's like the whole thing, right? So if you understand and everybody loves food, right? Like everybody loves food, right? Like everybody loves food, whether they cook or they don't cook, they still have a perfect dish, a perfect place, a perfect this. So just, you know, come equipped with a recipe, with a dish, with food,

your favorite place, and let that be the segue into coming together a little bit. I like that. See, I'm looking for a prescriptive solution to so much for a stop. I was pushing Wilk about that too but I like this one I think it'll work and let's even parse it out even further should you bring a dessert

do different kinds of parts of the meal make it have a different impact you know what I mean I feel like dessert is like if you're bringing dessert you better come at dessert time maybe or something. And it better be really good that everyone loves. Yeah. That's a great question because if there are major barriers there, you better show up with an appetizer.

And that's got to be something rich and memorable. So a baked brie with like a really nice kind of cranberry sauce on there. So when you walk in the door, it's wafting, and you put it down, and suddenly their visceral emotions overcome their intellectual emotion. There you go. My latkes. That's what I'm talking about. My caraway latkes with caviar and truffle oil.

And to be fair, too, you know, by the way, back to, there's rituals around food, too. If there's any sort of ethnically sort of, or even religious sort of meaning to some of the food that sort of your family has carried around, these rituals are deeply connecting around food. Yeah. Yeah. Look, tamales, right? Like that's about coming together and cuisine and making tamales together. So what's kind of cool is, is that there are a lot of dishes that you can pull together and just make on the spot.

So you show up in somebody's kitchen with maybe the ingredients and pull it together. Like here's a great appetizer. I say, and it's so simple, like sliced green apple, slices of prosciutto and brie cheese. You just lay out the prosciutto, put the apple on there and a slice of cheese, roll it up and then drizzle it with honey

and top it with fresh cracked black pepper. You can bring all of those ingredients, but quickly put them together in roulade form with the person who once was your enemy. One of you is cracking pepper on top. The other one's drizzling honey. Cheers. I guarantee you, your problems will be over.

Make sure you call it a roulade just to sort of emphasize the importance of what you're doing. But you guys are so good at your job. You don't realize how you do make it look easy, but it is still intimidating. If you're not a food person. Susan's very talented with this stuff, too. It's very easy for her. But as somebody who's not, I can appreciate how people would still be intimidated about it.

But I could pull off the apple and the prosciutto and the cheese. I can do that. You can save your life, but you can't make an hors d'oeuvre. No. Well, you can. Not one that looks like you want to eat it anyway.

Well, yeah. And I don't necessarily know if you need an appetizer on the way to heaven, but still. How dare you? Well, listen, did we cover what you wanted to talk about today? Let's see.

There are a couple other topics in here. Hold on a second. Is there anything else? Well, you know, I hit you in the beginning. I hit you in the beginning with maybe a little bit. I'm afflicted by that curse of knowledge when it comes to seafood. But I think generally when it comes to the RFP camp and the food system, I think actually fixing just the school food system is a very simple approach because

it's way too top heavy. We can actually pull back a lot of the federal team members from the school food system and reallocate all of that and empower local communities to actually cook food on a local level, deregulate it so that you can be cooking with much better ingredients. I think that's also a huge project that can be attended to early on within the first six months and actually see change affected. Yeah, I've heard you say that before.

And as far as the seafood knowledge base, no, no, no, we want to hear more. Like you said, education is a really important part of this. So I encourage you to keep bringing that information forward. And that's exactly why I brought it up because you went over some of it last time. Tell them what you did, what your training was in Long Beach.

Yeah, so I actually, you know, it was so funny. Years in the chef industry, I fell in love with seafood and I always wanted to learn more about the ocean. And I was in between jobs and got an opportunity to run a program with the aquarium of the Pacific called seafood for the future. I basically built the program. We got a grant from the Pacific life foundation. And the idea behind the program was to educate chefs on how to serve more sustainable seafood, but also educate the public on what is sustainable seafood. In 2010, that was kind of a vague, ambiguous word. So what we ended up doing was getting chefs to put the aquarium logo on the menu next to the dishes that contain sustainable

seafood by our standards. And whenever they ordered that, they got a free ticket to the Aquarium of the Pacific. So the notion was I would get back into the aquarium to learn about ocean conservation and marine stewardship. And then we had an exhibit there. So it was kind of this really cool full loop system of education and food. That's just a random thought. That's something that's meaningful to me. And I shouldn't waste everybody's time with this, but I have a quick question. Did you get involved with the California tide pool, the shores?

Because I've been worried forever about how we've just killed them. And when I was a kid, they were quite alive with a lot of stuff. And I've always wondered why we don't reseed them with starfish, abalone, and mussel. And is somebody doing that? Yeah, there's green abalone farms. That's managed by the state. So those are actually much easier to put through. And they're done so from both an environmental perspective and for food, right? So green abalone farms all along the coast of California, the red are difficult. Some of them are harder to see. But what that does is

that creates a healthier benthic environment, which is the ground, the seafloor. And you'll see sea. The ocean is so resilient. You can replenish life quickly. No, I know. And I wonder why we haven't done it. I worry about the black abalone and the starfish and the stuff that I was used to seeing all over the place. It just, an octopus even that used to be out here. But anyway, I just, I'm just delighted to know

that somebody's paying attention. I assumed they were, so I just didn't know for sure. Well, listen, follow Chef Gruel at Chef Gruel on X. Where else do you want people to go? You want to get the family cookbook? Where else? Yeah, the family cookbook's at andrewcookbook.com. You can also watch our show on the First TV.

It'll be airing tomorrow night as well as on Thanksgiving Day. And then you can follow me on Rumble at Cooking with Gruel or American Gravy. So we put all of our episodes up there as well. So Cooking with Gruel, American Gravy, both are on Rumble? Yeah, you can search either. It's the same show. It's the same show.

Yeah, and we just did an episode on beef tallow. And I got to mention that the Paleo Valley Beef Tallow is a phenomenal product. You mentioned the beef sticks, which I love, but the beef tallow is really good. I totally agree. We use it all. I used it just last night. I made tortillas with that, and it's really just a great product. And then the First TV, I think people don't understand quite what that is.

And what is that? Uh, so the first TV, it's a TV network. Uh, it's got a lot of different personalities on there, so you can get it on Samsung TV. It's on the first,

just search it up, or you can download a Hulu Roku or the first app and watch it, uh, watch it tomorrow and Thanksgiving. So it's, it's either an, it's an app called the first, the first TV, or it's a channel on Hulu and Thanksgiving day. So it's, it's either an, it's an app called the first, the first TV,

or it's a channel on Hulu and Roku. Yes. Yeah. And if you have Samsung TV, it's right on there. It's in that Newsmax wheelhouse. And then is your stuff, something you search for?

Uh, for the, yes, you can search for it. Um, and then once again, all the content is on, is on Rumble as well. Okay, perfect. All right. It's all there. All right. Great. Well, listen,

we, uh, hope you guys have a great holiday. It's always fun to talk to you. So how to Lauren for us, Susan, you want to say goodbye to Andrew? You just came back just in time. Thank you so much. It made me hungry. I had to go, somebody delivered food. I had to have some. That's our goal. So now my mouth is full. It's like psychological now, Drew. I see Andrew Gruhl on the screen and I get hungry. It's like when you used to see like Scott Adams on screen and I want coffee.

Listen, and you didn't have the priming of the meat he left. I can't get over this meat. Don't look at his Instagram. Don't look at his Twitter or Instagram if you're hungry and don't have food nearby. I just warn you that.

Be very careful. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. All right. Have a good holiday. It's funny. It's true. I was on the Peloton watching him make those chicken feet gravy,

and I had to eat right afterwards. That's so funny. And the Calico Fish House, we cannot say enough about it. If you're in Huntington Beach, California, go to the Calico Fish House. It's so, so good. Okay, let's put up future guests

here if you guys don't mind. And I'll glance at the restream and see what you guys are up to. Sorry that I was away from you guys. I definitely keep an eye on things. Okay, so tomorrow we have the creators and the directors of Coddling the American Mind, which should be very

interesting. And then Lionel makes a fan performance with us. Alison Moreau on the second. Kelly Victory is going to talk to Ed Dowd on the fourth. I won't be here. We have Justine Bateman coming in on the tenth. Jeff Dye, be here. We have Justine Bateman coming in on the 10th. Jeff Dye, comedian. You've seen him on Gutfeld coming in on the 11th. And then a very special show on the 12th,

which would be Matthias Desmond and Aaron Cariotti. I assume that show is early because Matthias is over in Europe somewhere typically. So keep an eye out for all this. Again, these are all great guests and we appreciate Emily Barsh's efforts in getting them all lined up. And I also threw Gad Saad at her.

He has a theory I suggest you look into called the sneaky fucker theory. I do suggest you check out his explanation about it. It's something well established in the zoological literature, apparently. And it's something that we definitely can see in evidence in human behavior.

There's no doubt about it. Other primates do it as well, of course. All right. So we are in here. I'm sorry, Caleb, I got all screwed up here. So tomorrow we're in at three o'clock. Obviously, Thanksgiving day, we will be out. And then after that from New York, December 2nd and 4th. Third, I think is when I will be on Gutfeld. 5th, are we going to do that from Florida, Susan? We'll be in Florida on that day. Yes, we're doing a show on the 5th with Elijah from... Great.

I can't remember the name of the show, but he's good and somebody else. Very interesting guy. So yes, pay attention to that. That'll be at our... Our Boca studio. And that'll be at 6 o'clock Eastern, 3 Pacific. Well, actually, it's going to be at 5 o'clock Eastern.

So 2 o'clock. We just figured that out. We got to figure some stuff out. Excellent. See you all then tomorrow at 3 o'clock. Oh, noon. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky.

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