Ask Dr. Drew - After Months Of Lies & Spin (And Defending Criminals) MSM Officially On Naughty List This Year w/ Rob Henderson, Curtis Hoack & Dr. Chloe Carmichael – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 564

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

The MSM is getting coal this Christmas. Santa’s last straw: a recent Washington Post story that attempted to portray DC National Guard ambush suspect Rahmanullah Lakanwal as a struggling Afghan immigrant weighed down by job issues and post-war stress. Despite their years-long insistence to “trust the experts” the media immediately changed their tune once Trump returned to the White House. Suddenly, major outlets are eager to decry the FDA’s demands for a science-based approval process of vaccines, post headlines defending criminals, and publish countless paragraphs speculating about the President’s health (Biden excluded, of course). Curtis Houck is the Managing Editor of NewsBusters. He previously served as a news analyst for the Media Research Center’s News Analysis Division, covering network evening newscasts, primetime cable shows, and late-night programs. Follow at https://x.com/CurtisHouck Rob Henderson is the author of “Troubled: A Memoir of Foster Care, Family, and Social Class”. His work explores social class and human behavior and has earned praise from public figures including Jordan Peterson and Vice President J.D. Vance. Follow at https://x.com/robkhenderson Dr. Chloe Carmichael is a clinical psychologist and author of “Can I Say That?: Why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly” and “Nervous Energy: Harness the Power of Your Anxiety”. She serves on the Women’s Health Magazine Advisory Board and is a USA Today bestselling author. Follow at https://x.com/drchloe_ 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 • AUGUSTA PRECIOUS METALS – Thousands of Americans are moving portions of their retirement into physical gold & silver. Learn more in this 3-minute report from our friends at Augusta Precious Metals: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/gold⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or text DREW to 35052 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠• FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • VSHREDMD – Formulated by Dr. Drew: The Science of Cellular Health + World-Class Training Programs, Premium Content, and 1-1 Training with Certified V Shred Coaches! More at https://drdrew.com/vshredmd • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) and Susan Pinsky (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/firstladyoflov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Executive Producers • Kaleb Nation - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • Susan Pinsky - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/firstladyoflove⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Content Producer & Booking • Emily Barsh - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/emilytvproducer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted By • Dr. Drew Pinsky - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/drdrew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

three great guests today that are friends of the show first up chris hawk he is the managing editor of news busters and we're going to talk about who's been naughty and who's been nice in the mainstream media a lot of naughty not a lot of naughty out there then rob henderson the author of troubled a memoir of foster care family and social class he is a social psychologist that is an amazing story he was trained at yale but himself came out of the foster system. And then Dr. Chloe Carmichael comes back. She's a clinical psychologist. She's written a book called Can I Say That Why Free Speech Matters

and how to use it fearlessly. We're going to talk about mainstream media, misbehaving, and what we must all do to stand up for our First and Second Amendment rights. We're right back after this. Our laws as it pertain to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopaths start this right. He was an alcoholic because of social media

and pornography, PTSD, love addiction. Fentanyl and heroin, ridiculous. I'm a doctor for, I say, where the hell you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time, educate adolescents, and to prevent, and to treat.

You have trouble, you can't stop, and you might help stop it. I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Maybe it's just a phase you're going through. You'll get over it. I can't help you with that. The next appointment is in six months.

You're not alone. Finding mental health support shouldn't leave you feeling more lost. At CAMH, we know how frustrating it can be trying to access care. We're working to build a future where the path to support is clear, and every step forward feels like progress. Not another wrong turn. turn. Visit camh.ca to help us forge a better path for mental health care. And I believe I said Chris Howk at the beginning. It is Curtis Howk. I don't, my brain isn't working that well today. Curtis Howk is on X at Curtis Howk, H-O-U-C-K and NewsBusters.org and

MRC-BURT, thank you for being here again. We appreciate it. Tell us, give us an update on who's been naughty and who's been nice. Let me guess, WAPO at the head of the glass. Yeah, WAPO's been at the head of the class, mostly because, well, first of all, because we were expecting more from this year, you know, the editorial board has maybe moved a little bit, but there's been a lot of convection from the liberal media about what is Jeff Bezos going to do now in this Trump presidency? Is he going to move the paper back to the center? And we really haven't seen that yet, you know, in the graphic there ahead of the show here, was a story that I did earlier a few days ago about the Washington Post kind of painting the National Guard. ambush suspect as, you know, a kind of victim of his circumstances about coming to the United States and not being able to find a job. And, you know, one thing led to another. And here he was shooting up a Washington, D.C. metro station. You know, speaking of the print, New York Times is another one that I have here because their story on Sunday, granted it was recently, but I think it was an old-time whopper admitting that, yes, the Biden border policy was a catastrophe.

They want to deny reality and insist that, you know, kind of providing structure and order at the border, and this is really something we want to get into. We don't really want to upset certain base voters in certain constituencies. Then once they realized it was actual catastrophe, well, we don't actually want to talk about it. We can hope this thing will just go away. So for the Times to write a story that was thousands of words long on the Sunday paper,

well over a year, almost a full year after the Biden presidency ended, is just rank your responsibility. Wait, hold on a second. Were they, as they always do, were they biasing in a way that really it was okay or there was compassionate or something to put in some sort of good light? Yeah, I mean, I think it's just way too late. I think the sudden kind of respect, I think,

that kind of, you know, is one thing. I think kind of doing, this is a story that they should have done a year ago, if this story had come out or more than a year ago, that would have been, journalism. But you do it then half well years after the fact when people were, you know, I mean, there was footage. Anybody who was there down at the border, the highway overpasses. I mean, the sea of humanity, what was going on there. Just, you know, it told the story.

Well, not only that. I mean, I haven't heard anybody. First of all, there's a couple things. A, I will not do print media anymore. It is an insane cesspool. They are disgusting. They do whatever they want and they will not do an article unless they can make something or somebody look bad. Period. That's their business, it seems like. A, why won't they ever retract, apologize, look back on where they got things wrong? It would make a huge difference. That's A. And B, people are forgetting that those convoys that were brought up here had pallets of food and water and hospitals and educational centers. These were NGO-driven, movements. They were troop movements that cost millions of dollars. Why aren't they writing

about that? Right. And that there was an incentive structure created by these NGOs to want to secure more government money saying, no, no, we're going to take care of these people. And therefore, the administration who kind of continue to let the border be as it may, because you have all these orgs saying, no, no, no, we're going to take care of these people as they come in. And it just becomes one gravy train after another of, you know, government corruption. Not as they come in, Curtis, I have friends that went down and rode with them from Central America. They picked them up, coached them up, brought them together, put them on the convoy, fed them, schooled them, did with the hospital, put them in places where they could sleep and sustain

themselves, gave them clothing. Then when they got to the border, they were sort of cut loose on the island system. Well, yeah, I mean, you look at the Mexico side of the Mexican border in particular. There are all sorts of facilities that take care of this kind of thing. But, you know, it was only, again, conservative media, groups like the Washington Free Beacon, Julio Rojas, a good friend of mine, Ali Bradley over at News Nation. Not many folks were kind of taking care to point this out and kind of do some legwork on it and to actually walk with the convoys as they were coming up. But as print, you would think that there would be much more of a chance for nuance in print reporting

because you're not constrained to the two, three minutes of a 20-minute newscast with 10 minutes of commercials. But in some cases, as you point out, it's a little bit more insidious. There's even more space for more bias. Is Barry Weiss, free press, CBS, are they going to be on the good list this year? I'm glad you brought that up because I'm going to. to say it's TBD, but I'm leaning towards the nice list because of just simply the premise of something had to change at CBS News.

And she's attracted all of the right enemies, in my opinion. People who are saying, no, no, no, you can't come in and just upset the Apple cart. Free press, like, what's the website is this? You know, it's a very small staff. I mean, yes, there's questions about, you know, has she managed this many employees. But I think the structure that she has working hand in glove with a CBS news president, a long-time news executive, to kind of know more of the HR kind of rigmarole where she can kind of more focus on the news gathering operation. You look at anything about the sector.

CBS newscasts, the exception of 60 minutes have been in third place behind ABC and NBC for, what, two decades, three decades at least. people just still get nostalgic about the days of Walter Cronkite. And, you know, we're just a lifetime away from that. And so since then, CBS is a brand, particularly after the Dan Rather incident in 2004 with George W. Bush and his National Guard papers and that's a thing that kind of forced him out there. CBS as just kind of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It's always been the next person up. But I think Barry Weiss has a chance to, you know, really turn.

turn this around and maybe if it doesn't work okay but if you it had to be something had to change you know the idea of getting rid of some of the folks that were there um i've really been appreciative that she looks like she's going to name tony de copal the cbs evening news anchor that announcement she could be expected tomorrow um they hired away from fox business a financial correspondent who now has just been will be named the saturday morning show anchor so i i think these are some good steps But, you know, the CBS coverage, we've still written about them at NewsBusters. I've been critical of the coverage. But where I've praised them is you simply have to present that half of the country believes one thing.

I think that's what was key during the Jimmy Kimmel suspension. And when they're, you know, at their own network, when Stephen Colbert, they said that will be brought to, his show will be brought to an end next year. That Tony in particular and some of their correspondents really said that there are a lot of Americans that actually don't watch these shows. and a lot of Americans have a problem with these shows. So we have to acknowledge that, well, there's a lot of people that like them. There are plenty of people, if not more, that say, you know, they don't like these shows and what's the point of them? Well, not only what's the point of them, what is the business model that allows them to make profit, given the expense that they mount. Correct.

I'd love to see CBS put together like a nightline type thing or a, remember, Tom, what was that guy's? name. You used to have a late night show in NBC. Tom. Well, it was Ted Cople on ABC that did Nightline for the longest time. Well, that was the nightline. But even before that, there was this crazy, with this black hair. Caleb helped me out with this. He looked like he was wearing a wig all the time. But he had a great late night show and people loved it and he watched it. It came out of Los Angeles. But in any event, I mean, there are ways to do this cheap and interesting and have people respond to it. We've got to kind of get back to that. So the question becomes,

what should the consumer do? How do we defang the media and how do we support real quality stuff like Michael Schallenberger and Barry Weiss and Matt Taibi and people are really out there trying to present the truth? A couple things. Number one, journalism costs money and I think that's maybe an uncomfortable conversation

with some folks. Yes, you can support them by supporting the sponsors or merely reading that, you know, analytics and monetization of accounts is definitely a thing. But for certain folks, you know, you have to have payment. You know, there is a paywall, I think, at a certain point. And Barry Weiss's free press is a good example, that a lot of things that they put out are in front of the paywall

or you just have to give them your email, but other times things are behind the paywall. At a certain point, yeah, the journalists need to be paid to, the people producing the work and there's travel costs that are involved and research hours, manpower and equipment. So I think that's one uncomfortable conversation. I think that consumers need to, more people need to come to grips with. I think it's getting better.

But the other thing I would say is continue to do what you're doing. I've always said that the internet is a net positive because it allows such a huge diversity of resources in the barrier to entry, the barrier to kind of find out about the world around you has never been lower. So for all the negatives that you can talk about later in the show, which is, you know, whereas before, if you wanted to know something, you had to go to your public library. Your family had to have the encyclopedia of Britannica.

You had to be subscribed to the local newspaper. You had to have tuned in to the newscast at a certain period of time. Now, thanks to YouTube, Rumble, social media, blogs, substact. you can consume all kinds of information while at the same time, yes, trying to find out what's true and what's not. It requires a little bit more judgment, news judgment on the part of the consumer and where we can come in, folks that care about the notion of a news business and come in and help folks as a resource and a vehicle,

kind of provide the educational know-how and tools to kind of give you tips. But consuming, and the last thing I'll just say is consuming or a ride, variety of sources still matters. I think knowing different what people are saying. I talked to you about this. I still subscribe to the Washington Post at home because I need to know what they're saying every day. And I find that valuable too. And I think the lesson in that this year from the Charlie Kirk assassination was we need to be able to see the common humanity in each other. Because that has just been missing from so much of our political discourse. I think a lot of Americans say that. But the fact that you have to have to say it out loud is,

though, that's something that needs to be said is just, we live in a truly bizarre time. But quickly, it's Tom, Tom Snyder, thank you, Brooklyn, and secret brass, secret bass riggs. Tom Snyder's who I was talking about. Somebody also mentioned Craig Ferguson, who was a brilliant comedian who had a late-night show. That's more in the sort of Fallon-esque type model. But yes, the people are saying they remember Tom Snyder from back then. And so those interview, look at those interviews. So they still stand this test of time, some of them.

What about what's going on with the EU? And I don't know if you really want to get into this. It's not our business so much, but it feels like it's going to have resonance over here with them attempting to really muscle their censorship. They want to be the final authority in what is and is not true. Yeah, I saw that news late last week. A huge fine leveled on X claiming that,

You know, you guys haven't done enough to really kind of limit disinformation and advertisements and deceptive programming and that kind of thing. It certainly is concerning. Yes, we can kind of roll our eyes at it and there's definitely a point of how much does this interest does. But when you've reached a point like in the UK where people are going to jail or hosts electronic messages that are being sent, you know, and you think of the UK and the U.S. kind of as the, you know, one in one A, one B of Western civilization, I, you know, I kind of feel like

it does become a problem at a certain point. My colleagues at the Free Speech America division here at the MRC have been all over this kind of thing, talking about the E's doing, you know, as much as we may want to put it, keep it at arm's length, we have to at least know what's going on because, you know, as far left as they are, it's kind of a preview of coming attractions to the United States and the way that, you know, our government institutions, are going to be thinking about the news. So we have to kind of anticipate what's coming down the pike, you know, with future FCC's in the future. Well, not just FCC.

I'm looking at the Supreme Court now where it sounds like they're sympathetic to, yeah, but we have Justice Katabji Brown saying that the experts should have authority over the duly elected officers of our government. I mean it's exactly the opposite of the way this government is supposed to run. You know it's good for you. Yeah, we know what's good for you. And it's the Tom Nichols' rule of experts' lifestyle that we've been dealing with for the longest time. Really anything that comes out of the Atlantic is kind of that mode frame of mind. So, you know, I think that kind of free speech in particular frames mistakes of upcoming elections

and the importance of rescuing and saving and preserving these institutions that we have, both here in the United States and in the Western civilization because our way of life, and what they're pushing and what communist china is pushing you know even in like hong kong when they had the the building fire they've been engaging in rampant censorship and grounding up people who are just saying that we're not getting the information that we need from government officials because you know they're saying well we can't let this get out of hand instead of trying to actually figure out what happened in the first place that's an example about how we cannot allow that to come to the united states same thing as covid everybody that's what we were watching that's what we gobbled up

We gobbled up and followed suit. It's insane. We've got to really examine that. Curtis, I'm going to hold myself to 20 minutes here. I appreciate you being here. Is there actually a naughty, a nice list somewhere that we can look at? We'll be having our quotes of the year. We're having our quotes of the year coming up in a few weeks.

So stay tuned for that. Where do we find it? It'll be at newsbusters.org. Last few years we've named it the Don Lemon Memorial quote of the year. So stay tuned for that coming up. We'll have a winner. Oh, my God. A couple runners up.

Oh, God. Great. Thank you, Curtis. The meantime, follow Curtis Huck on X. It's C-R-T-I-S-H-O-U-C-K and back in just a couple of minutes with Rob Henderson. Next year, the national debt is going to hit $40 trillion. As insane as that sounds, it's even worse when you consider unfunded liabilities for Social Security and Medicare. If our status as the world's reserve currency suddenly changes, our nation could collapse under the weight of its debt.

And as we all know, there are many forces trying hard to take down that U.S. dollar. This is why thousands of Americans are moving portions of their retirement into physical gold and silver. Our friends at Augusta precious metals have put together a three-minute report entitled, Debt Will Hit $40 trillion in 2026. Prepare your retirement now. It details how a self-directed IRA with real physical assets may be the best option in 2025. Go to Dr.do.com slash gold. That is DRD-R-D-R-D-W.com slash G-O-LD. Or text Drew, DEREW to 35052, that's 3-5052.

And you'll get instant access to this crucial report. If you have $50,000 or more in your IRA 401K, TSP, or other retirement accounts, consider our friends at Augusta Precious Metals to give you. you the information you need to make an informed decision about your retirement. Find a fight for our nation's future, but we all need to protect our own futures first. Read this important three-minute report by visiting Dr. Drew.com slash gold. That is, dr.d-dearyw.com slash G-O-L-D or text Drew to 35052 and see what Augusta can do for you. That's brilliant.

And thank you, Drew. Who's Dr. Drew? Where is he? Dr. Drew. if you've been watching our show i suspect you know rob henderson rob k henderson on x rob khederson dot com in trouble is the book a memoir of foster care family and social class do get it on amazon it is a great read i've read it twice and uh rob i appreciate you being here very quickly why don't we discuss um your history Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks, Dr. Drew. Pleasure as always. Well, so very briefly, my book troubled covers my unusual trajectory into higher education. So I was born into poverty in Los Angeles. My mother suffered from addiction. I never knew my father, bounced around seven different foster homes all over Los Angeles. Eventually, I was adopted by his family. We settled in this working class town in northern.

California called Red Bluff. And from there, I witnessed a lot of, you know, family dysfunction, divorce, separation, family tragedies, financial catastrophes. I fled as soon as I could. I was 17. I graduated from high school with a 2.2 GPA. It was a very unfocused student. Yeah. I'm still proud of that. And I enlisted in the U.S. Air Force and with some hiccups and some setbacks along the way. Eventually got to Yale where I studied psychology on the GI Bill and then went off to the University of Cambridge and got a PhD with the support of the Gates Cambridge Scholarship. And now I'm a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and I write regularly on Substack and for various other outlets as well. And I mentioned in the book,

I was a huge fan of Loveline as a teenager. I mentioned Dr. Drew in one of the middle chapters. So every time I join you on your show, it's a surreal experience. Well, I'm glad we can contribute to some... It was my idea this time. To you feeling like you're... I missed you. Surreal.

But what... I miss you too. What do we do? I read your stuff. I read your subtext. I read your material. You wrote a thing like yesterday, I think about being a writer in the age of influencers. And, you know, today the theme really is, though, about free speech and the importance of speaking up

and what is going on in this country and the world, really, where some of the cognitive psychologists have been saying that there's been this bottom-up distortion of reality, and this is always how bad things happen. Then the top down has been sort of influencing it and manipulating it. What's your, as a, you know, what is your sense of what has happened to us? What is, and what's going? What do we do to move it in a healthier direction? Yeah, well, it's, it's an interesting question.

I'm interested in the self-censorship component. So, of course, there's the overt censorship where you can get deplatformed or suspended or demonetized and that kind of thing. And as we increasingly live our lives online, that matters. If you're silenced, if you're deplatformed, you're no longer able to communicate your thoughts and your ideas. But you also see this rise in self-censorship. So I spend a lot of time in and around academia and you can see the rise in the number of students

and faculty members who say they don't express their true opinions out of some fear of being penalized or ostracized. There was a stat in the New York Times if he wants to go, which indicated that 80% of students have concealed or misrepresented their political views because they were afraid of getting a bad grade from their professor in class. But then when I speak to college students, they say that their main fear comes from their peers, from other students. So they self-censor and stifle because they don't want to be ostracized or, you know, insulted on social media or on.

person in some way. And when I speak with some academics who are unbothered by this, they say things like, well, self-censorship has always existed. There have always been taboo things that we haven't been allowed to say and this kind of thing. But my response to them is always, well, why is it increasing? You know, if you go back to 2011, something like 50, 60% of students will, said that they would self-censor their view. Some half of students, maybe a few more than half. Whereas now, depending on this survey you look at, it's anywhere between 80 and 90% of students, say they self-censors. So why does it jump so much? You know, if this has always existed, what's changed between now versus 15 years ago. And I think a lot of people are aware the political currents have changed and people are growing fearful.

Although there does seem to be maybe a little bit of, what people call the vibe change, the vibe shift, over the last maybe a year or two. You know, Elon Musk taking over X has been a great thing. I think, for free speech, and for some of the other platforms as well, substack, which I'm active on, you can actually speak your mind and actually compete in the marketplace of ideas and, you know, share your actual thoughts and opinions. And yet we live in a time, to your point about how it's been progressing and how it's sort of peer-motivated censorship.

I think back in my day, the censorship that you would do to your professor was sort of what we used to call grade grubbing. You tell the professor what you knew the professor wanted to hear to get a better grade. You didn't really believe it. You didn't think about it. You didn't worry about your peers.

Now it's gotten into what's wrong with me if I don't believe the way this guy believes. I certainly can't admit that I have doubts to my peers. That is a major, that's hypnosis. That's persuasion. That's propaganda. That's sick. That's really, and it's the opposite of what

this country is about. And yet you're right, there has been sort of a vibe shit, but I think there is actual fear. There's actual fear still that in expressing oneself, and we're going to get into the individual censorship with Chloe and just a minute, Chloe Carmichael is a social, it was a clinical psychologist, which is fear that when some other force gets into power, you might literally be in danger in the United States of America from things you had said years before. And by the way, COVID was a great example of that. I'm still dealing with that. I'm not anymore because it's so clear now I was right. But I dealt with that shit for years. And certainly within the medical sort of, again, the academic ensconced belief system, you have to me, you have to tow this one line.

We're seeing it again with the vaccines, even though RFK Jr. is one of the most popular political figure. He's the most popular political figure in the country. There are people out there saying he's anti-science, he's anti-everything, everything, attacking him when they're just trying to be deliberate in their recommendations based on currently available science. What do we do with this sense in this country that things could go bad again? Yeah. Well, and this is something that people, you know, we have a short. short memory. It's astonishing to me because back during the peak of wokeness and cancel culture, you know, 2020, 2021, people were digging up old

social media posts from 10, 15 years prior and saying, oh, you know, you posted this, this thing 10 years ago. And so we're going to cancel you now. And now that we have this vibe change and people are being honest again, or at least more honest than they were, they seem unbothered by the possibility that five years from now, 10 years from now if the pendulum swings, everything you're saying right now in this moment might be used against you once the vibe shifts once again. And so you have this temporary freedom. Yeah, you have this temporary freedom. But a lot of it comes from young people. So I mentioned earlier that, yes, students will misrepresent their views to please their professors. But you're also

seeing professors misrepresent their views to please their students because they're terrified of being canceled or hounded off campus or being pressured to resign. And so you're seeing it in every direction. And it's concerning what's happening with young people. That it's young people who are the most enthusiastic seemingly about a lot of this stuff. There was a survey from Eric Kaufman, who's a political scientist, who found that even when you control for political orientation, academics under 30 are far more censorious than academics who are older. middle age and above. And so even though they both might identify politically as being the same

in terms of their willingness to de-platform or silence or even go to extreme measures like coercion or physical intimidation or violence, it's young people who are pushing this and who are promoting it. Are there any data suggesting that that shift is changing amongst young people? I keep hearing that they are shifting in some way, but it's kind of a mixed bag, I think. I think it's very mixed, where young people just seem to be more polarized in each direction, where you have some faction of young people who are as enthusiastic as ever for cancel culture. But then you have this backlash within that young segment who are very much against it. And in some ways, maybe taking it too far where they'll say things that are extremely offensive just for the sake of it.

but I would rather live in a world where people can say anything than fear, you know, expressing themselves. And is that sort of the Nick Fuentes phenomenon? I think that's what's been happening where, you know, Fuentes himself and a lot of his fans will say things like, well, we're sick of being told what to say or what to believe. So we're just going to say everything and anything, regardless of whether or not it's true or whether they believe it, I think there's just this thrill. And that kind of gleefulness, I think, has always existed among young people

of saying things for shock value or for attention or to get a rise out of people or to upset older people who, you know, they claim that they don't get it or they don't understand. So I think there's an element of that. But the thing is, I think in decades past, people understood to some extent that this was a performance when entertainers would say things that were outlandish. So, you know, when I was growing up 15, 20 years ago, you know, you'd have, you know, the kind of hysteria around hip hop artists and rappers, but you knew that they were entertainers on some level. And when they were making their music, they would explain that this was kind of a caricatured version of reality for entertainment value. But a lot of influencers now, they're blurring this line between reality and hyperbole. And because they're playing themselves, or at least they claim to be, and they're often position that they position themselves as brave truth tellers. This is one of the things you saw. I don't know if you caught that interview of Pierce Morgan and Nick Fuentes, but Nick Fuentes

tried to straddle this line between Morgan would ask him a question and Nick Fuentes would respond, well, you know, it's a lot of hyperbole and these are just funny jokes that I tell among my friends and these are all just sort of insider humor. And then it spills out and people don't understand that we're just messing around. But then later in that same discussion, he would say, well, I'm actually a brave truth teller, and Morgan asked, you know, would you ever run for political office? And Fuentes says, oh, no, I tell the truth. You can't get elected if you tell the truth. And the question is, well, which is it? Are you a brave truth teller? Or are you just this jocular, funny host who's trying to get a rise out of people? There's this fundamental

contradiction in a figure like Fuentes. What do you think? I think he has no stable sense of self. I would be curious to hear from you and from the clinical psychologist here, you know, what to make of someone like that where he's very slippery. And, you know, within 10 minutes, he will contradict himself three different times. There was one moment in that discussion with Pierce Morgan where, you know, Pierce Morgan said, you know, are you a racist? And for instance, yeah, I'm a racist. And he says it like he's proud of it. And then three minutes later, he says, oh, you know, I had, you know, I'm not that racist. I had a black best friend when I was in first grade. And I'm best friends with Kanye. And, you know, he's talking about how

he actually has lots of friends from all different races and ethnicities and so on. And I think he just wants to have it both ways, where he wants to have all of the status and recognition and excitement from his fans for saying these provocative and outlandish things. But then he also wants to be more of a respected figure who says, oh, no, I have friends from every race and every ethnicity. So you can't really pin me down as a racist after all. So Chloe, standby.

I may bring you in here just a second to talk. talk about whether Nick Fuentes has a stable sense of self or not, but I'm just thinking about the way he frames himself. I had to do some work reporting on something with the old Jerry Springer shows and I had to watch a bunch of those shows. And that's exactly what the guests were doing. They were just like him. And some of them are remorseful about it. And some of them are sort of moved on to have more serious mental illness, frankly, or violence or God knows what. But at the time, they were just the show kind of went too far

they had actually young people on there saying these horrible things but it was just to be on the show so to speak it was just to create the circus and even though they would kind of defend it in a weird way like you say

there was no stable sense of who they were and what they believed they just were doing something there to get the outcome that they wanted weird yeah the North Star is just attention I think

it's not these are my principles or here's the vision I have for the country or for society or here's a path, a more constructive path forward. It's, you know, I'm just going to say whatever might, you know, get someone to clip this interview and make this little thing go viral or get, you know, a rise out of other fans. Yes. And we're back. Here we are.

I think we are back now. Fantastic. Rob, let's bring him back. And apologies to you. Apologies to Chloe. Thank you for everyone for hanging with us. you're going to get a big two-part show today. So we'll proceed with our second part.

Yeah, but where is it? Like, is it a new link on Rumble or is it the same one? We're still on the same link on Rumble. It might be a different X link, but I'll merge all these together later. It does seem quite strange to me that this happens within minutes of us talking about Nick Flentis. Yes. It does. Does this happen before?

It happens. His people do this. Let's not say the F word again. Whenever we talk about any controversial topic, there is. is a tendency for us to fall off line magically. The N-word. No N-words and no F-words. The N-F-word, we'll say.

Really, the word we had before was, if we said ivermectin or hydroxychloric, or we'd get knocked off. Then if we said anything about vaccines, we would get knocked off. Now it's N-F, so we will refer to him as that for now on. But what we were talking about before the, and I'm going to bring Chloe in here just a second

to join this conversation. I said shock, Jock, and you said it's a reincarnation of, Well, what I said was, I've met a lot of shock jocks, and whether it was Bubba the Love Sponge or, oh, shoot, I'm forgetting my friend in Chicago and Howard, all these guys. Tom Cigar said Bubba the Love Sponge. Yeah. They all had a point of view.

And they had, for sure, an ethical compass that they might have been pressing the limits of it, but they were not interested in telling somebody else how to live their life. this is such a different thing and nor were they interested in getting people that era was about pushing back on things on the restraints of a previous generation now it seems like some sort of weird game that has very high stakes

and I don't know it feels dangerous to me yeah well one of the interesting things about this individual we've been discussing is he does try to tell people to live their lives a certain way, but then he himself won't do it. So, you know, one of the things that Pierce Morgan pressed him on is some clip of him saying, you know, you should avoid black people. And then in his own life, again, he has friends. So is he actually, like, is he actually a racist or is he not? He's telling his followers, like he's promoting this, you know, toxic vision of

racism, but then he himself is not even abiding by it. So, and I don't think that, yeah, the shock jocks these radio hosts in past eras were doing things like that of telling their listeners to do something and then they themselves doing like the opposite no they they would lead the band so to speak let's bring chloe in here to join you and i rob if you don't mind sticking around but i want to keep this conversation going and since we're a two-part show will be a three host or a two-guest one host system chloe is dr clory carmackle clinical psychologist you can follow her on D.R. Chloe, C-H-L-O-E-O-E-O-D-R-U-Squore, yes? Is that correct? No, it's D.R. Chloe underscore. There it is. Okay. I couldn't see it.

D.R.Cloy.com, free speech today.com. And again, the book is, can I say that? Why free speech and how to use it fearlessly? Speaking of fearless use of free speech, we're going to be unable to actually be fearless today because we might get knocked off the system. So we will refer to our subject as N-F. And so my question to you, Chloe, is Rob on to something when she says he doesn't have a stable sense of himself? Yes, yes.

Rob and I were talking about that. And I was saying I totally agree about the stable sense of self thing because I feel like Nick or that person's development might have been kind of frozen in time when he was banned from the airwaves at the age of 18. and the age of 18 is a time just developmentally when we're normally, the sense of identity is fluid. And so, you know, people kind of find themselves

and their personalities on camera when you, you know, are in the media, especially when part of what you're bringing to the table is your sense of thought. So Rob, I think you're really onto something. He doesn't seem to have a stable sense of self. And it might be like an arrested development thing from when he was banned,

10 years ago. It's like he's frozen in time. And something that Rob and I, I believe, spoke about last time he was in here. One of the unfortunate sort of liabilities of adolescence is a tendency toward the dark triad. And the dark triad has been quite prevalent these days. And I'm beginning to wonder how many of our political appointees and, you know, on either side, frankly, are succumbing to or have have this as a liability, so to speak. Rob, any, is it getting worse? Is it getting better?

I think it's probably getting worse in the age of the social media influencer era where a lot of, you know, the attention economy relies on saying outlandish things, saying things to please your audience. There's, you know, Chloe and I were speaking about this idea of audience capture earlier. You know, you see elevated levels of dark triad traits

in public figures. And I know, I think you've done some original research on this, Dr. Drew, for celebrities and so on with the narcissism issue. But you see this as well with psychopathy and Machiavellianism. I think that this individual NF, he probably has elevated levels of Machiavellianism. One of the characteristics of Machiavellianism

is strategic duplicity, where you're a different person depending on who you're trying to please, who you're trying to ingratiate yourself with, Coleman Hughes wrote an excellent piece in the free press about him, about how there are sort of two versions of this individual, depending on whether he's hosting his own show versus whether he's guesting on someone else's show. So I think it's not just the narcissism,

but also maybe this Machiavellianism as well. Unless it is weird, conscious game theory of some type. Chloe, are you seeing more stuff in the practice that concerns you in terms of character construct? Yeah. I mean, I think that it's really hard to stay integrated in your personality when, you know, as you and Rob were discussing earlier, we have to mask and self-censor so many parts of ourselves. And, you know, Dr. Drew, you were referencing this earlier as well. I think that we can almost start to dissociate from parts of ourselves if we feel like we have to mask them to enough people, like you said. It was almost like a hypnosis. And so at the same time that we've seen this incredible spike in cancel culture, we've also seen, and I discussed this in my book, a quadruple in the Google searches for the word authenticity. So it's almost like a borderline split where on one level people are craving authenticity. And then on the other level,

they're terrified, you know, of being authentic. And I feel like it's almost like the perfect storm for Mr. N. F, right? He's kind of almost like a borderline himself where he'll take this one little bit of truth. Like it's not that everything he says is completely nuts. And so he'll take this one little bit of truth and then kind of latch onto it and pull this thread and get you to almost kind of follow what he's saying and say, well, you know what? Maybe this guy isn't. And then, oh, wow, he said what? You know, but then he'll take it back and he'll spin it around. It's very slippery. I've noticed that in the young males in particular, I don't know exactly what they want or exactly what's deficient, but I, well, in fact, when we were at Tim Poole's place, if you remember a couple of the young males there went, we want spiritual guidance. I wasn't quite sure. Really, that moment, do you remember that moment? It stayed with me until to now. And I still don't know exactly what they, yeah, I don't know what they were asking for, but I was shocked. I was shocked at his, there.

sincerity and how much they wanted that. And that is so, I think part of the reason that they're not getting it is my generation did not want that from the older generation, quite the opposite. We wanted them to stay out of our business. And it seems like they really are looking for some sort of guidance that we are not delivering. Young men are leading the charge back to the conservative church, right? I think we've probably all seen the polls suggesting that. And it was the male Trump voters as well that.

prioritized number one is a desire to have children. So again, that's where I can see where certain, you know, divisive figures can latch on to a genuine need. You know, that's another thing NF really promotes, right, is, you know, a return to, you know, strict Catholicism and things like that. And I thought Tucker Carlson actually had a really interesting exchange with him as well, where he said, well, you know, is this or that view of yours actually necessarily really Christian then, you know, and that that gave him a little bit of a pause.

Anyway, I don't want to continue to just talk only, only about him. But it is an interesting point, as you said, when we look at young men and what's going on with them. What I'd like to do, I think, is take a little break right here. And I do, I do want to talk about, you know, the men that, the young males that follow NF and, you know, what that means and, you know, how these movements have. way of it can get out of control of ways they're hard to predict and it worries me but young man i think we need to kind of talk about that but i want cloy you to talk to rob a little bit when we

get back about the capture of psychology and psychology training i i don't think a lot of people are aware of that and the first time i really heard it vividly was from you and naomi at tim pools and it's i wonder is that something that when we get back you tell me is that something that there is an increasing awareness of? Is it something that people are pushing back against effectively? In the world of, I don't know, there seems like, as Rob called it, the vibes shift, I'm wondering if that is finally protecting the training of clinicians as well. Rob Henderson, Chloe Carmichael, we will get back with you all right after this. I'm excited to bring you a new product, a new supplement, fatty. I take it. I make Susan

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Our friends at Augusta precious metals have put together an extremely important three-minute report about how Americans can protect their retirement accounts from skyrocketing national debt with physical gold and silver. Go to doctor.com slash gold. That is DRD-R-D-R-A-W.com slash G-O-L-D. Protects the word Drew to 35052. That's 35052. Get instant access today. They're interested in educating you about options. My guest are Rob Henderson. You can follow Rob on X. Rob K. Henderson and Dr. Chloe Carmichle. Dr. Chloe underscore. And before the break, I was talking about how, you know,

how there's been a capture of clinical training and psychology. And somebody during the break said something about propaganda and branding. And I started thinking to myself, and I've had this thought a few times lately. There are so many things in my, here I am late in life, and there are so many things I've realized that I have just a thought were real, that I realize that by so many things, I mean now most things were really just the product of

Mad Med-esque Don Draper-style propaganda campaigns that have me eating certain things and using certain detergents and driving certain cars. And I feel like that phenomenon has run amok and gotten into everything now,

including clinical training. Chloe. Yeah, for sure. it's incredible. I think the ratio right now of liberal to conservative faculty and psychology departments is 20 to 1. And any type of a skew like that is not good, whether it be conservative to liberal or the other way. So you had asked earlier, Dr. Drew, like, has there been a vibe shift to the point where maybe things are going to change in these programs? I don't think so because that level 20 to 1, I think has created a group thinking.

environment. And one of the ingredients of group thing, because I share in my book is what's called direct pressure upon dissenters. So people are not comfortable, as Rob was saying earlier, you know, to speak up. And my own profession, the mental health field, we're 90% plus liberal identifying. And since free speech right now is coded as a right issue, this means that speaking up about hey maybe women really can't become men or you know maybe it's you know really actually racist some of our quote cultural sensitivity programs or whatever um people just don't feel comfortable i did not feel comfortable to speak up i sing a little song to get through my program and that was you know 15 years ago so i i wish i were getting better but i don't see the

conditions for that happening yet Bob, we aware of that? Yeah, I have friends who are clinicians, and I have one friend who's going through a PsyD program. He tells me, yeah, it's exactly, as Chloe is describing, where, you know, there's an overwhelming pressure to conform to a certain kind of political outlook. And, you know, people don't like when you, when you deviate from it. There's, you know, kind of two interesting ratios here. The gender, well, there's the political ratio of, you know, 20 plus liberals who can. conservative. And then within psychology, it's, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if it was, you know, 10 to one female to male as well. And I sometimes wonder if this is one contributing factor among obviously many others for why, you know, a lot of young guys are struggling as, you know, a lot of these professions are becoming more and more female dominated. And, you know, men just, well, often, so young men, they feel more comfortable communicating their thoughts and their feelings and so forth to men versus women. And, you know, men just.

if they feel like they're going to be judged both for their political views, but then also for having, you know, whatever, gendered views, you know, that are typical of a young man. Right. That, you know, they'll just sort of stew in silence or, yeah. Or, yeah, get funneled into these toxic online platforms where, you know, instead of getting help, they instead seek, you know, kind of material. Right, that's the fear of NF and next whole thing.

That's the fear we have is that this is going to spiral into some. something unforeseen, which is very, very concerning. But I do want to go from this topic. And by the way, Chloe, I have a family member who's in some psychological training. And I think I'm seeing things better for this person in terms of what he was used to use to complain about it. And he was kind of joking about it. And lately it's been more about the facts of clinical training, which is hard enough.

Just get that down. right? Yeah. Oh, am I buzzing again? Is my mic on? Everybody hear me? Okay. I hear you. But Rob, you wrote a piece about women and monogamy, which I thought would be an interesting way to spin out of what we were just discussing. And Chloe probably has not read that. And certainly the audience may not have. So just kind of frame that briefly. And I'm going to get Chloe's reaction to it. Is this the girl boss gatekeeping idea here? Danny Silakowski's work? It was you more about monogamy and how men were driving some of this stuff. Right. But there was a misconception that women were also driving it.

Okay. Interesting. So monogamy in particular. Hang out. Let me make sure that it's your article, not, this is your substack. I'm going to give you the X. It was a business insider article. Oh, I see.

on it on X. Of course, it's the woman here driving non-monautomous relationship. Oh, it was an ex post. Not a subset. Yeah, if you look at the survey, men are three times more likely than women to support non-monogical relationship, etc. And it's been my experience that it's usually

somebody who's not into that person dragging that person into an open relationship just to avoid being alone. Yeah. Well, whenever you see media outlets, with ideas like, you know, polyamory living in a polycule or a thruple or some kind of an open relationship. Usually in the media, it's a woman who is leading this idea and dragging her husband along

or, you know, positioning herself as the one who wanted this. But then when you look at the actual survey data, men are three times more likely than women to be interested in a polyamorous arrangement or an open relationship or swinging or throuples. Which, I mean, that's unsurprising, given everything we know about differences between men and women and interest in variety and having multiple partners and so on. But because I think that people view, or a lot of people view sex differences as distasteful, they don't like the fact that men have, you know, kind of different sexuality from women that the idea is to make men and women exactly the same. So if survey data and everyday common sense indicates that men would be more interested in polyamory or swinging or open relationships, well, then a lot of people would say, well, we need to make women the same way and promote this idea that women are the same as men. And that's why you see a lot of these articles and these ideas of women into polyamory or into – there was an article in New York Magazine, why women are quiet quitting their husbands and experimenting and stuff. stepping out and in another article from the New York Times, the case for ending a pretty good

marriage. And so, you know, I just think there's this discomfort with differences. And so instead you have to reshape the narrative of, okay, well, it's actually women who want this, not men. But often I think when you read the stories of a lot of these women, and if you read a book, like, you know, I have spoken about David Buss before, Dr. Drew, David Buss's book, Why Women Have Sex. I was thinking of him. Yeah. And remember, David Bus was condemned for a while, and now he's back again. He said, people are, oh, maybe he had something to say. He's an evolutionary psychologist, Chloe.

Yeah, one of the best evolution. I mean, he was a pioneer in the field, but he co-authored this book with another psychologist, Cindy Meston. The book was called Why Women Have Sex. And, you know, it was interesting because women have sex for, you know, different reasons and often from why men do. But one was this feeling of retaliation that if their male partner does something that they don't like, that women will often step out of the relationship to get revenge men don't really think that way men just want sex for its own sake not necessarily for vengeance and so when you read the stories anyway of a lot of these these women who are into polyamory and you dig into their history you'll find that often it was their husband who cheated on them or the husband stepped out or the husband did something they didn't like and then they will decide to to be interested in polyamory I think is a way to sort of even the ledger Chloe, you talk to people with the door closed. What's your sense of this?

Yeah, I mean, this is so interesting. And I totally agree. There's something, it's called the Celebration Paradox by someone named Michael Anton, where if you're going to talk about sex differences, it's only okay if you're seeing something positive about women, right? So if you said, oh, there's more female judges now and the bench has gotten more compassionate, that's fine. But if you want to say, oh, there's more female judges now and, you know, maybe it's like

getting to be a little historionic, like, well, that's not okay, right, to say. And so I do think that there's that celebration paradox as well here with, you know, the polyamory thing. Like if you want to write about, you know, polyamory and it's a woman doing it, you know, then it's brave and bold. But if it's a man doing it, oh, well, this toxicly masculine guy just wants to, you know, subjugate all these women or whatever. And I saw something similar. You guys are reminding me as well of the me too stuff right like where you know to your point drew about what i hear behind closed doors it drove me nuts with me to where this whole like believe all women thing because i sat with women that literally told me that they were going to fabricate a sexual harassment claim to get what they

want i sat with men who told me that they were being victimized by women who did this and i sat with women who a decade earlier had made up a rape charge to get out of a unfortunate sex experience accountability and it was just easier and then years later they feel terrible with guilt like it doesn't fully sink in for them what they did until many years later so i think it's a fascinating conversation well there there is a there is a phenomenon i'm seeing in social media where women are trying to educate men about this exact phenomenon, that we are pretty naive, we are pretty straightforward, we're not, we just don't get it half the time,

and that we need to be alert to these differences, and we get manipulated if we're not. Yeah, totally. But again, it's that weird celebration paradox, where if you want to talk about women and sexuality, or, you know, women in work or women in anything, we can talk about toxic masculinity all day long, but toxic femininity traits,

which, you know, is interesting. It's called Marianismo. It's super fascinating. Like, there's machismo, which everybody talks about. But nobody talks about Marianismo, which is like where you can weaponize your sense of victimhood in order to become manipulative with it. And I think you're right.

I think for us to have a whole accountable conversation, we have to be able to talk about that. Otherwise, we get people like NF, who's the only one who's going to just say it, right? So we have to be able to bring these conversations. Yeah. Yeah, then it goes sideways. And I, there's a lot of, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of feels to me like that a whole, when there's a power imbalance, you have to condemn somebody who had historically been in power and, and empower, which is great, those who had historically been out of power, but that it, it's gone sort of where it's, it's. gone into a little away from the facts a little way from reality i'm suspicious it's become

reactionary yeah well just because there's been a historical power imbalance where maybe one you know a member of one group has historically held more power than a member of another group people then seem to extrapolate that the person who has power is always in the wrong and the person without power is always in the right like they've they've distorted this idea that forever that the person forever right Like from now on, forever, that's the way it goes. Right. Well, the person with less power should be protected and should be heard and so on, and that's all good. But that doesn't mean they're always correct or their account of events is always accurate relative to the person with more power.

Like, truth still exists regardless of who says it, but people are inclined to say, like, with the Me Too thing with Believe All Women, you know, except in some cases even that is thrown out when it's convenient, you know, depending on who the woman is and what her political group might be. then suddenly you don't well there's another concern you you you brought up the truth i mean the truth has been under attack for quite some time and you know it's as part of um the um the french psychologist the french philosophers the uh what the hell's the name of the the anyway there's a whole movement you know whether it was so derry da or all these guys all these guys erie daire d'a and foucault and all these guys the reality didn't really exist it was all social constructs and that's um post-structuralism. And that is deeply concerning, deeply, deeply concerning. We've got to all understand, we have to all come to a consensus that truth exists, that yes, humans can't fully know

the truth, but we can ascend to it as best we can. And it has relevance. It's meaningful. The truth is important, but it has lost its importance for quite some time now, and I think we need to bring it back. Yeah, totally. And what we're talking about there, the black and white, you know, kind of shift about, you know, the victim and the oppressor. You know, we see that happening with sex, obviously, but I think we also see it happening with race. I mean, did you guys hear about what happened in Portland, right?

That this man was acquitted of a stabbing because the victim used the N-word after he was stabbed. No, I'm not saying he should have done that. But the idea that the stabber, you know, was acquitted over this. I do think it's this, you know, kind of black and white reactionary thing. And that does create a void where, you know, certain kind of crazy voices can step in to fill the space. Well, and even if you were to agree that there needs to be a scale of justice that gets set, gets reestablished or something that some score is settled, so to speak, where do we stop? where is when do we where do we go with this it's like it's like it's getting um i don't know it's we need to sort of again reestablish the truth justice is an important thing i don't know we're getting

this whole notion of uh defending free speech has gotten me loose-lipped a little bit here and so i'm trying to talk about topics that we you know that are hard they're difficult to talk about And, you know, the three of us are trying to get it right. We're not trying to hurt anybody. We're not NF and we're not in his camp. We're trying to do what's right and good for people. The NF word, honey. Yeah.

The NF word. Sad. All right. Let me look at the restream here and the chats that are following us. They're very active today. They've been very helpful, actually. Susan, you said, oh, my God, is something. No, no, I was asking people on Rumble who don't watch 90-day fiancé if they ever watched it.

Because that scenario between Gino and Jasmine reminds me of how women manipulate men into thinking, you know, oh, we can have a third partner or whatever. And then the man goes, okay, and then it just falls apart. What I always say, Chloe, you tell me if you would disagree or agree with this. And this is not to judge, I'm not, we're not judging anybody's choices. That is not what we're doing here. But I find it there are armies of people and very few really, really good people that can help two people have a good relationship. When you bring a third person in, it becomes exponentially more difficult and may be impossible. Chloe, what do you say?

Totally. I mean, if you just think about it, you know, we're pair bonders, right? I mean, especially when you look at a cultural context where it's our cultural norm. And so when people are stepping outside of that, I think. it usually signifies either that they have, you know, a very strong and unusual, you know, type of sexuality, which is, you know, obviously going to be something for them to, you know, work out in their relationship, or that on a psychological level that they're acting something out, that there's more to it than, you know, just the sex. And so, yeah, I think when we glorify

and reify those types of relationships, there's a reason behind it. And, What really, getting back to the psychology training programs, too, like what really gets me, Naomi was talking about this when we were on Tim Poole. I mean, you go to a psych program these days. You're going to be watching kink videos. You're going to be told to be LGBTQIA Two Spirit Plus affirming, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But nobody's going to say, you know, by the way, like religious people, you know, let's talk about their interest in abstinence and what are some of the benefits of that. like nobody's ever going to talk about that at a psychology program. I mean, not even a matter of

like giving it equal time. They'll actually pathologize it. They'll say, well, he was from a conservative evangelical household, so very repressive sexuality, right? So, you know, it's, it's to your point, Drew, it's, it's just, it's really convoluted when we start mixing in, you know, big academia and big advertising and all this, you know, with government, we're trying to break down the family. I mean, we could go on all night. Well, but I think that's a kind of a good place to roll to a stop, which is what we're trying to get people to do is to think and to consider their reality and try to ascend to the truth and to pay attention and not to get involved in any mob actions, whether it's on either

side and that bottom up movements can be very dangerous and we have to be extremely cautious about it. And it looks like the dark triad has been alive and and we should know it and call it out where we see it in politics and business everywhere. It's it's gravely concerning and we should all be worried about those young males that want to find their way back and try to help them. So I'll let that's my closing comment. I'll let each of you have a closing comment. Rob, I'll start with you.

Well, some of the things you guys have been talking about, it reminds me of this discussion I had with an editor at a magazine. And he told me that the magazine had just run this article about a woman who, who left her husband to start an only fans and how she was happy with her decision to end her marriage and start an only fans. And I asked this magazine editor, would you run the reverse story of a woman

who had an only fans and then abandoned that, got married, and was happy with her decision? And he said, we would never run that story. And when I heard that, it was just confirmation to me that there is kind of a narrative behind a lot of media organizations where... That's the propaganda. That's Don Drainer.

We're alive and well in 2025. Yeah, that there are certain stories that are acceptable, certain ways of living that are exalted and others that are denigrated. And yeah, this is sort of going out of our way to make people, you know, favor something that could be potentially destructive versus these other ways of living that are more stable, harmonious, stood the test of time. And yeah, we need to think more about that. and maybe get back to it.

Chloe? Yeah, thanks. I love this conversation. And to close out with my final thoughts, the thing I want people to know, and I feel like this conversation has illustrated, is that free speech is good for mental health. So that's why I wrote this book.

And there's three main ways, which is cognitively. So by us all talking here, and Dr. Drew, like you said, we're just trying to get a little, loose-lipped and talk about things and say things that have been taboo that maybe we've been pushing down as a society. And then when we can't speak clearly and have open conversations, it's hard to really get our arms around the facts of like what's really going on. So even just through open dialogue like this, we can start to just, you know, become clear and conscious, like that

Tish Hyman, like she's super clear. And then the emotional benefits of free speech, we have emotional regulation, like it felt good, I think, for us to just connect and say what we really felt. And then the third is the cognitive and emotional. They add up to social support. We have more authentic, high-quality social support when we can be real with each other. So thanks for the opportunity to really live that out with you guys tonight. And both of you, thank you for being here. I know I'll have you back soon. We appreciate you. We'll look for you on X and your substacks and your books and you're so meaningfully contributing to the conversation. I hope you're part of what's moving the dial in a healthier direction because you have good

instincts and insights and they're just trying to get it right as rather than make people believe a certain way. We're just trying to get to the truth. Thank you guys. Thanks. Bye. Thank you, Dr. You bet you.

All right. So let us look at what's coming up tomorrow four. Four o'clock. Chloe. Oh, my God. It's like, you want her to be your... It's such a talent. Like, I know. How does she do that? I don't have that in me.

Sorry, kids. Okay, well. That's my mic across the bear. Chris Salcido, Joseph with Darren coming back. Del Bigtree and Amy Wolf on Thursday at the 2 o'clock show. Then back again with Peter St. Ange and Jay Palantir. Jennifer Alpert, Marta Byrne, and her husband. Shane Cashman being here, Elizabeth Hucinich.

We got a lot of show coming up, rolling into Christmas and the end of the year. We're going to try to keep things going pretty much through the end of the year, but of course we'll take off Christmas in those sorts of days. Susan, anything to add before I wrap this all up? I just want to tell people who are coming late to the stream. If you start at the beginning, it's going to stop right when we use the N-F word, which is short for... We can use it now, which was Nick Fuentes.

You're talking about Nick Quentes. Because we are wrapping the show up. If we drop off, we will leave it at that. No, but, yeah, if you go back to the beginning and it stops, then you can watch it on YouTube, the second half, or Rumble. Yes, Rumble stitches them together. Rumbles the best out of them all because it actually picks up the stream and pulls it right back in where we ended.

And there were like 1,400 people and they stayed, and I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh, I thought they'd all go away. No, thanks for staying and listening. And then also just tell a friend, and it's in two parts. We'll be uploading the whole thing on X at some point, so it's all together. Sorry, Caleb, you have something else to do on your plate. Well, that and taking apart this entire top-of-the-line production PC

and figuring out what the L's going on with this thing. It should never crash. This is like a production-grade thing you guys got me. Yeah, I'm about to. Well, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. But anyways. We will leave it at that. Merry Christmas. We will see you guys tomorrow at 4 p.m. See you then. Ha-ta.

Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. Emily Barsh is our content producer. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am a licensed physician, but I am. I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today,

some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in an immediate danger, don't call me. Call 911. If you're feeling hopeless or suicidal, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800. 273, 8255. You can find more of my recommended organizations and helpful resources at Dr. drew.com slash help.