Ask Dr. Drew - Ask Dr. Drew - Paulina Pinsky & Duncan Trussell - Episode 6

Episode Date: January 22, 2020

Dr. Drew is joined by his daughter Paulina Pinsky for a deep dive into the use of psychedelics, with special guests Duncan Trussell, Dave Navarro, and Dr. Gita Vaid. Get answers on ayahuasca, psilocybin / shrooms, and more – along with intriguing new data on their uses in treating depression and PTSD. Missed the live show? Get an alert next time Dr. Drew is taking calls: http://drdrew.tv Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (@KalebNation) and Susan Pinsky (@FirstLadyOfLove). THE SHOW: For over 30 years, Dr. Drew Pinsky has taken calls from all corners of the globe, answering thousands of questions from teens and young adults. To millions, he is a beacon of truth, integrity, fairness, and common sense. Now, after decades of hosting Loveline and multiple hit TV shows – including Celebrity Rehab, Teen Mom OG, Lifechangers, and more – Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio in California. On Ask Dr. Drew, no question is too extreme or embarrassing because the Dr. has heard it all. Don’t hold in your deepest, darkest questions any longer. Ask Dr. Drew and get real answers today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Our laws as it pertains to substances are draconian and bizarre. Psychopaths start this way. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f**k's sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? You go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on

Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop, and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. That's right. Welcome, everybody. Ask Dr. Drew. Do call now.

And we're here again. We hope you will share this with your friends. And if you did sign up at drdrew.tv, you probably got an email or a text from us. I'll be taking calls intermittently, hopefully the first part of the show here. Second part of the show, I'm going to introduce my daughter to you, as well as Duncan Trussell. If you guys know Duncan Trussell, he is a longstanding friend of mine. And he has a lot of interesting ideas about hallucinogens, which is what we're going to kind of focus on today. In the second hour,

I'm going to bring a psychiatrist in here who uses psychedelics and hallucinogenics for therapeutic purposes. And then Dave Navarro, a very special guest, may call in on that second hour with some of his own ideas about all this and allow him to share that for you and with you. We do also a daily show called Daily Dose, which is not quite, it's not interactive the way this is where I can take your calls. I can watch your comments, which I can do right now, by the way, and I am watching everybody. Well done at the Jersey Shore. I see you all now. Duncan is awesome. Paulina, there's some nice comments for you as well. I can see your comments on Periscope, Facebook, Twitch, wherever you are.

That's where we are, and I can see the comments there. But you can also call in. That number, of course, is 9842-DR-DREW, 9842-373739. And I'll try to take all the calls I can. Obviously, I've got a very packed show with material and guests and all, so I apologize if today I don't get as many guests on the phone as I like to. We are probably going to do a very special bonus show at the end in a couple of hours and just take calls

because I'm not going to get to a lot of calls, I suspect, during this particular show, even though it's called Ask Dr. Drew. You're not going to be asking Dr. Drew that much. I will get to some of you on hold right now. I see you, and I will try to get to you. The other thing is we do a show just like this, a streaming show on all the platforms called Daily Dose. Usually we are midday, though sometimes we're doing it in the evening.

We are going to be traveling a bit in the next few weeks, and when we travel, we will only do it on one platform. As it is, if we're doing it from this studio, we're able to stream on Periscope and Facebook and Twitch and YouTube and everybody. But when we go out on the road, we're probably just going to be doing Periscope. So if you want to find us, we will be on Periscope.

Ms. Producer Susan Penske, will there be a blast out for the Periscope? Well, we'll mention it on Twitter and Facebook. Just go to Periscope and follow Dr. Drew, and then it'll just pop up as soon as we start it on your phone. All right. In addition, I want to thank our sponsors.

This week, courtesy of Sand Needle Destruction Devices, go to NeedleDestructionDevice.com. Get more details or click on the link at DrDrew.com. We do appreciate the support of the sponsors for this show. The needle destruction device particularly for me is kind of a dream come true. I've been trying to figure out ways my entire career to eliminate needle sticks as a health issue. The needle destruction device that I am working with does that. You just put the needle in this device, it incinerates it, and it's no longer a biohazard.

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before I get to the show. Also, Dr. Drew After Dark at your mom's house. I know a lot of fans of that show are around and we got a new tour coming up with Robert Paul Champagne. Epic, epic, epic. And as I said, sign up for this show. We're going to try to do this regularly, as I said, and we appreciate

your support. We appreciate you being part of this. Why don't I first welcome my very special guest, which is my daughter, Paulina Pinsky. Paulina is a writer and can be found at mizpiggy, M-I-Z-P-I-G-G-Y, 111. Wow. Her website is paulinapinsky.com, where people can do what? Oh, so many things. You can read what I've written already, or you can sign up for my newsletter and keep track of what I'm up to.

I tend to send a newsletter out every week, at least. Also on Medium. If you are interested in reading my pieces on Medium, I'd be exceptionally grateful. Medium, do not confuse that with calling out and mediums. No, no, no. Medium.com. Also, you can find her on Instagram and Twitter. My mother producing me.

I love this. Oh, yes. M-I-Z Peggy. And also, your coaching and all that stuff. Tell them about that. Yes, I'm actually a writing coach. So, if you are interested in pursuing your craft and becoming a better writer, I am available for one-on-one coaching.

Tell them about your pedigree so they can, they know what they're getting. Oh, yes. This is excellent. I love my parents like being like, more, more, more. Wait, Paulina, first, could you put the mic a little closer to your mouth? Thank you. There we go. This is what it's like to be a child in Hollywood. To be you. People ask you, yeah, people ask. Stage mama. People ask what it's like to be you and there it is.

This is it. it's being heavily produced all the time anyways just stare into the camera um so i have my mfa in non-fiction creative writing from columbia university i um focus on essay writing and family writing so eventually i will be writing a book about our family so get ready ready for that. Thank you. Get ready for that. However, I dabble in everything, poetry, fiction, nonfiction. Ultimately, I... But the coaching is around that stuff too. The coaching is around that stuff. I mean, I'm primarily a nonfiction writer. However, I'm able to help in any sort of medium. I would create a program specifically tailored to what you want to pursue.

And Ms. Producer, is it time to bring my other guest in here? Or do I do calls? Should I bring Duncan? Bring him in. Duncan Trussell. You know him from Drunk History, Comedy Tour, Joe Rogan Show, his podcast, Duncan Trussell Family Hour. Find him on Twitter at

Duncan Trussell and at DuncanTrussell.com duncan there you are man how's it going great how are you good oh my god can you see me loud and clear everything is perfect the the behind you looks amazing that's the beautiful duncan family tell tell about the podcast first uh it's just uh uh we have conversations with we have conversations with, I have conversations with spiritual teachers, Buddhists, Satanists, comedians. Satanists and comedians go in one category and the spiritual advisors in the other. Nice. Yes.

Are you getting some weird feedback? Well, they all mix together sometimes. Are you getting weird feedback or something? I'm not getting feedback. Okay, good. I want to make sure you hear me clearly. Now, I fell in love with Duncan when he did one of the first Drunk Histories. It was actually a web series then, and he did a series on Tesla. Have you seen the Tesla?

No, I haven't seen it. Oh, my God. Duncan, Tesla. Yeah, that was amazing. I got really way too wasted on that one i derrick and i don't know if this is true or not but because of my episode they had to start hiring a nurse to do breathalyzers because i was we didn't look at the alcohol content of absence uh that's oh my god Hang on a second.

Unbelievable. I just let my phone run during this. So sorry. At least we solved the problem. I like that. I didn't know what it was coming from. I thought it was on your side. So watch the Tesla episode.

You can find it on YouTube. It's unbelievable. And it's unbelievably accurate. I learned about Tesla from that episode. You, John C. Reilly. Who else was in that one? Crispin Glover. Crispin Glover.

Oh, my God. It's such a great. And then I had the great honor of playing Derek Waters. Derek Waters is the mastermind behind Drunk History of drinking with Duncan on his last Drunk History. Was that your last one or have you done one since? No, I've done one since. I'm so mad you guys didn't bring me into that. I know. I didn't like it without you.

That was really one of the most surreal moments because I've been a fan of yours before we became friends. But it's very un- You never think when you're thinking what might happen to you out here that you might end up getting hammered with Dr. Drew. So that was a really interesting night. And talk about dolphins and weird ass experiments and

LSD with dolphins, right? John Lilly. Yeah. Yeah. All that strange stuff. The dolphin experiments. Yeah. He was really, you know, what I heard, though, is that he was more interested in ketamine than LSD, actually. Interesting. Yes, isn't that fascinating? But they don't mention that as much. He was, towards the end of his life, apparently, he was injecting ketamine into his body like three or four times a day, at least. Oh, my God. I'm not sure that's therapeutic.

I'm just saying that that sounds no i no he was trying to he was trying to go home oh well so so talk to me uh that we have recently lost ramdas who i know was somebody that figured large in your thinking and some of the stuff you would talk about on your podcast. Talk to me about your basic philosophy on hallucinogenics. Okay. Well, yeah, it's good to mention Ram Dass because Ram Dass and Tim Leary, originally his name was Richard Alpert, and they were in the forefront of studying psychedelics as a potential therapeutic tool. And so in those days,

it was so new that nobody really understood what it was. These were, you know, people who'd been studying psychology for so long. And suddenly here these these substances start popping up into the mainstream a little bit that seemed to give you a direct access to the subconscious some people speculated that it was a way to induce schizophrenia which was very useful from a scientific perspective because maybe by becoming a quote, a lunatic, by becoming psychotic, you could get an insider's perspective on what some of your patients were going through. But then I think what started happening is that as they began to study these substances, they began to change, you know, and reevaluate their life purpose. And so that was when Alpert and Tim Leary got kicked out of Harvard, and it was a big scandal. And then it was

an interesting divergence that happened between the two, because Tim Leary sort of maintained a kind of, at least the guise of scientific materialism even though you might not think that about him and uh albert went to india and became uh a seeker and met his guru neem krollibaba came back here and wrote be here now and uh became a great spiritual teacher isn't it wonderful it's it's transcend I mean, I read about a book a week and that book specifically has gripped me from my chest in my core and shaken me. And I think it's something that is really, should be widespread now, especially in this moment in which everyone feels so dislodged from anything. It feels like a very grounding ideology to follow.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's a fantastic assessment of that book. And to get into the topic, what I think the topic is, Ram Dass told this amazing story. It was one of the big awakening moments in his life, which was he was at a party. I think he was at a party with Tim Leary and like Alan Watts, you know, all these like intellectuals and thought leaders, and they were taking synthetic psilocybin. And

Ram Dass goes and sits on a couch because he's beginning to really trip out. And he starts thinking about the things that he loves, you know, his status, being a, you know, handsome, respected Harvard professor, all the identity points that he was really connecting to and something about this trip, they just started blinking out, you know, these, these aspects of his identity that were what he considered to be him. And so he tells this wonderful story about how essentially he gets to some core Richard Alpert-ness and then looks down at his body, and his body starts disappearing. And at that point, he had to deal with this, I don't know what you would call it, a non-bodily identified consciousness that was outside of his personality, outside of his ego,

and he was trying to understand that from like a perspective of western psychology what is this yeah so people now talk about that in the realms of mindfulness and meditation too as sort of either pure being or awareness of awareness does that make sense that's right that's right yeah yeah uh fundamental goodness is another name for it. You know, some kind of like, it's like, I don't know if this is a really dumb example, but maybe it's a little bit like wiping all the apps off your phone. In this case, the phone is your identity and the apps are all the various things that you use to contextualize and understand your reality. When all that stuff gets lifted away away a lot of people experience some uh relief you know neurotic people in particular experience some relief from that so this is where

you and i always end up right which you have with these interesting what are potentially therapeutic uh sort of modalities and interventions and observations and then what I go to as a physician is, but we don't know the risk. And so when we start talking about changing fundamentally who a person is, you're talking about changing their brain. And that always scares me as something that either we don't have much control over, we don't know the longer-term consequence. I've seen severe problems from people who use a lot of hallucinogens. Is a little a problem? We just really don't know yet. How much is it? Yeah, that's true. We don't who use a lot of hallucinogens is a little a problem we just really don't know yet how much is yeah that's true we don't know what a lot is as part of the

problem i i by a lot i i mean i i took care of people that uh were in famous rock bands in the 60s and were doing lots of it every day and ended up in nursing homes because they were so impaired uh and impaired in kind of a global strange way like wasn't strictly cognitive they just became unable to sort of take care of themselves very you know i think one of the problems with those examples i think is that especially if you're talking about rock stars is you're dealing with so many different substances so many different uh experiences that those substances are being used within. Who knows how many of it is, how much.

A lot of the damage is from speed, cocaine. These are really alcohol. But you're absolutely correct. Alcohol in massive amounts over a long period of time will do exactly the same thing. Speed does something a little different. Speed causes mood problems and memory problems. Cocaine causes strokes. So it doesn't really cause the kind of damage we see with the other two.

And then you're in the hallucinogenic class, you know, which one and which one does what. We don't, you know, probably psilocybin are much safer than LSD, probably. But what was it you said? Who knows what? That's the bottom line. Who knows? That's the problem. Right.

I know as a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to get a psychiatrist in here in 45 minutes and I'm gonna try to talk to her was using some of this stuff and see what, what she says. So it'll be interesting. You know, go ahead. Oh God.

Sorry. I think one important, like, you know, for me, I love psychedelics. They, uh, I respond well to psychedelics. I enjoy them. i use them recreationally i use them spiritually i don't use them as much as i used to though i've sort of um i don't know i don't know how to explain it i feel like i've gotten a lot from them i use them every once in a while and also i know the ones i don't go well i'm you know honestly i'm not a big fan of mushrooms i don't like them uh as compared to like lsd or some of the other uh

psychedelics out there that's really weirdly the opposite of what most people say right well yeah so it's a it's a hilarious you i always know i'm in the right place if i find myself talking about mushrooms versus lsd like i'm talking about sports teams you know because then i'm with i'm with a future friend you know that's a cool thing to get in an argument about how are the chiefs doing anyway yeah i have a friend who's a psychiatrist and he uh and he does psychedelic medicine and he is really passionate about getting the message out there that it's called psychedelic assisted psychotherapy i think i know you're talking about he's a psychologist not a psychiatrist though this guy right what's that this guy's a psychologist psychologist my friend's a psychiatrist

you sure yeah okay i don't know i never looked at his well can people get that very confused and it is a very different kind of a perspective and i do know a bunch of psychologists that are using exactly what you're talking about and claim great, great results with trauma, particularly, which is one of the great challenges in psychological therapies, right? Yeah, that's right. And regardless of his credentials, I'm positive he is. What I love about what he says is what's wonderful about what's happening right now is that the genie's out of the bottle. They've allowed a lot of studies to happen with psilocybin, MDMA, ketamine. They're getting great results and they're finding out what parts of the brain it

affects. What are the optimal doses? Some of the optimal doses are not what you would think. But one of the things he's worried about is that we're going to suddenly have this new class of pseudo-shaman slash psychologist person who starts popping up, imagining that they can administer psilocybin and give the psych. Or ayahuasca or whatever. Yeah, that's another whole thing. Well, that's really interesting i worry about that too right because it is not sort of there's not guidelines for it yet so people can do whatever they want that's right right exactly that's the i mean i'm an old man now i've got a kid now so i'm i'm not like i used to be which is like just nitrous and acid together you'll see the matrix man now i'm more like you know and again i'm not

trying anybody who loves these things they're to me they're terence mckinnis said he feels sorry for people who've never taken a psychedelic in the way he would feel sorry for someone who's never had sex it's a fundamental human experience and it's glorious and i agree with him wholeheartedly but when we start talking about what's happening now everyone forgets the hard work that goes into going to a psychologist and like the amount of time you have to put in and the deep work you have to do on yourself to get in inside where the trauma is so to get opened up up enough and to get the tools you need so that when the psychedelic experience is being administered, you can, um, it you're trained up, so to speak, and the real healing can happen in that. And they're finding out that the

combination of these two things, which underground psychologists have known for a long time, really has spectacular results in treating not just PTSD, but depression, marriage issues, and addiction. I'm sure you know about all that. Yeah. And again, I know about it in sweeping, vague terms because I hear anecdotes, no published data yet. And we'll have it soon. As you say, the genes out of the bottle, we'll have it someday. And I'm fascinated to see how that works.

And so we're talking about ayahuasca and ibogaine for addiction. We're talking about MDMA for relationships. We're talking about psilocybin and LSD for end-of-life dread. That's clearly where they have data right now, by the way. They have data that shows, yes, they show that if you are having horrible anxiety or around a terminal prognosis it really helps things it really does and and who cares what the long-term effects are in that case right i mean we don't have to worry about it or are there going to be uh cognitive difficulties five years down the line if you have six months to live who cares we're just trying to help that

person deal with that uh but you you always used a metaphor from to me sorry paulina we're just going on here we're old no no no yeah paulina really sorry white men talking you know oh my god you're right though that is what we're doing we're not the camera's not even on your daughter i was like i'm here go ahead also i don't know if you want me to confess uh what my opinions are um i will say i did uh mushrooms in amsterdam i watched a lily die and rebloom before my eyes and that sort of duncan whoa it was awesome but i also was able to look at my life as a full narrative and i was able to see what my purpose is and sort of kind of it cemented the moment that i i was in graduate school at the time and i was in amsterdam so life was good um so i think because i was in a place where i was safe and i was in a

stable mind space i was able to engage with the psychedelic in a way that was actually spiritually fulfilling and i think um more than anything i i kind of have a problem with uh using things unintentionally just for entertainment, especially when it comes to psychedelics. Having an intention, which it makes me feel very new age, but acting with intention, you're able to manifest something for yourself, right? And so if you go into a psychedelic experience with the intention of self-exploration and healing, it can be a very, very spiritual and grounding process, in my experience at least. How has it helped you with writing and creativity? Have you noticed any,

have you ever used it for that? Maybe. Yes. This is like low-key my teenage nightmare, playing out, being on my father's podcast talking about drug use but right here we are no no there's there's a there's a meta level to this though you'd never imagine which was duncan is doing the interviews that's the part that's the part that uh put to real flavor to this whole thing so go ahead guys yeah uh for creativity uh i well so actually um my first manic episode which i had summer of 2017 kind of cracked open my creativity do you think that was related to the substances no um how do you know i was on an antidepressant and the dosage was too high and so it was a reaction to actually my antidepressants.

But during that period of time, I discovered painting, which sounds so ridiculous, but it was this pure unadulterated expression that wasn't, I mean, I'm, I'm a trained dancer. I'm a trained singer. I'm a trained writer. So it was the only sort of medium in which I didn't feel restricted in. And so that being said, I have dabbled in high psychedelics and painted and everything sort of takes on this sort of spiritual iconography unintentionally. I actually have pieces, I have pieces for sale on my website if you were interested, anyone. But all of my art feels like channeling in a certain way and psychedelics sort of allow me to channel more like i i believe that i'm channeling so let me get to from that to duncan's uh metaphor

not in the metaphor so much as his description of how it maybe you've changed your mind duncan i don't know but you always talked about this way you thought psychedelics should be used as that elevator metaphor. Remember that? Oh, yeah. Well, that's actually, that was something Ram Dass would talk about. Because, you know, they were, in those days, this was before the war on drugs. This was before, like, the deep conditioning that the state, the voodoo conditioning the state has put in so many different people's brains regarding all drugs and and they really did think that they had found a like a nootropic uh that was going to potentially transform society in a matter of years you're

talking back now to uh uh what's his name albert and leary yeah leary leary was one that really championed that stuff but And Alpert was. Let me just say, though. But let me just say, and this really bugs me a little bit. The job of a psychologist or a psychiatrist is the clinical care of a patient. It is not transformed society. And a lot of horrors have been done by psychiatry in the name of transforming society. Trust me. It's all history that's being acted on on our streets. That's where homelessness came from. A lot of horrors have been done by psychiatry in the name of transforming society.

Trust me, it's all history that's being acted on on our streets. That's where homelessness came from. I can talk more about that in maybe a little while. Oh, my God. I mean, even unintentionally, these experiments. I mean, look up Kaczynski was at Harvard. He was subject to these crazy at the time. It wasn't the CIA. it was the OSS.

But this, I can't remember his name, a professor at Harvard was blasting Kaczynski. At the Kentucky Center, the treatment center in Kentucky. Is that where it was? I'm confused. I think it was at Harvard. No, I think they went down to Kentucky. But anyway, there was horrible stuff. They took the Unabomber down to Kentucky? Yeah. Well, yeah. So, yeah, this is one of the fascinating things about these substances is, and especially back then, they changed the observer. So, you know, if you want to get into them from a scientific perspective and you become the subject, then you will begin to transform.

And if you don't have the right group of people around you, if you're a narcissist, you know, if you're manic, if you're whatever, then it can, it can inflame that narcissism. And then next thing you know, you think you're Jesus. I mean, this is a classic, you know, I'm sure how many times have you had someone call you up, Dr. Drew, and tell you that they think they're the Christ or that they're going to change the world and they're in a big hurry? Right. And when people, and usually that's all kinds of psychiatric conditions, but if somebody has something like that induced by a chemical, I worry what we're doing to their brains and it makes me worried about everybody. He uses these things so that, that, and not to say that that negates therapeutic value. There's always risks with any substance that people ingest for a therapeutic purpose.

We just don't know this one yet, but finish the elevator metaphor if you would. Oh yeah. So that, so anyway, what I only brought that up because they were taking vast quantities of these substances and with LSD, the,

your tolerance goes up really quickly that's true so every day right every day they were drinking it they were drinking it so that's the level that they and they were you know leary was reporting going back into his dna um uh and you know going into his ancestral roots and stuff. But what they were realizing, and Alpert was really good at articulating this, is that no matter what, you still have to come down. So he compared it to this elevator. It's like taking an elevator to this heightened state of consciousness. You experience universal consciousness.

You experience merging with the totality of all things you experience a kind of beautiful harmonious connection to nature but then you come down inevitably you come down and when you come down you're back in the world the from their experiments one of the sayings that emerges who who's going to do the dishes? Because somebody can't, you know, someone's got to do the dishes. That's right. Someone's got to, you know, and so this was where the big split happened with Alpert and Tim Leary. It wasn't a split.

They stayed friends for their entire lives. realized that the psychedelics were not going to keep you high permanently high in the positive sense, in the sense of being, you know, no longer, uh, engrossed in the story of you and the implicit selfishness that goes along with being human. He, uh, wanted a way to have more, a more permanent effect. It was probably a little less chaotic. And so that, that's, he went to India with LSD and started giving it to meditators to find out what they thought it was. But yeah, his thing is you can go up on the elevator, but you always got to come back down.

And I would argue that a meditative discipline would be one of the ways to get control over that elevator, right? Well, yeah, that's exactly right. Exactly more it's a it's just a more um well you know sometimes i think holistic call it ballistic yeah and you know i'm not trying to create some hierarchy between psychedelics and spirituality which is a there's

actually i think sometimes a rift between the psychedelic community and the spiritual community. The psychedelic community sometimes thinks the spiritual community is just like passive, doing spiritual bypass, fooling themselves. Terrence McKenna used to say, tell this story about a guy who was studying with a guru and he went off into the forest and meditated for 15 years and came back to his guru now capable of walking on water. And so he showed off to his guru. It's like I have 15 years of discipline. Now I can walk on water. And his guru said, the fairy costs a nickel. You know, and so that was mckenna's idea with mushrooms is listen what sure go ahead go to the go go to dharm salat go to the himalayas

go into the jungles meditate for 20 years gain some endogenous psychedelic capacity but i can buy five dried grams of psilocybin and instantaneously communicate with hyperdimensional entities. And so this is where a rift is between these two communities. But in my old age, I think I just don't have time to do six-hour mushroom trips. But more importantly, you've founded the grounding that they're talking about, these philosophers, which is what's important is taking care of your daughter. Do the parenting. Get the diapers changed. Get the food.

That is exactly right. Do the dishes. Boris is a son. What's a son? I beg your pardon. Are we going to throw a picture up of your child, by the way? He's so cute. We can't.

We don't put his picture up. Oh, he's so cute. All right. Here's the deal. I want now thank you for all that are we all three sort of we sort of i think it's i i heard that you would meditate with ramdas and i think that's really cool right is that true is that a rumor that i heard that's fair yeah i got really lucky i did get to yeah we go to these retreats and hang out with them and all all the wonderful people that would come there and it's it's yeah i got really lucky and in hawaii yeah

yes in hawaii oh let me just say okay miss pinsky yes uh i now that i'm feeling uh jealous of mr duncan let me tell you what your father did which is what he got to know ram das's niece who's a documentarian and we went out and tried to create a documentary about the therapeutic uses of hallucinogens with Ram Dass featured in it, and nobody would do it. Look at Dad flexing. Nobody would do it, which was very disappointing. We thought it was

a layup, because people are interested in this stuff. But Sasha Alpert and I went out and tried to pitch this thing, and for whatever reason we couldn't get it done. Isn't that weird? Well, maybe it was the time with the Ram Dass documentary coming out on Netflix. There's a whole bunch of them out there.

There's a whole bunch of Ram Dass documentaries. And I don't know what it is, frankly. To me, it's fascinating stuff. And I don't know why the average person isn't terribly interested in it. But, Duncan, I'm going to go to some calls. I want to switch gears a little here for a few minutes before i do uh anything coming up on your podcast we should be aware of other topics than hallucinogenics oh well i mean it varies week to week you never know i mean sometimes we're talking about manifestation uh sometimes we're

talking about magic i just interviewed ian ed, who's just a brilliantly funny comic. You're coming up on the podcast soon. And we've got a show coming out on Netflix that is based on the podcast that you're in. It's so funny. It's so funny. It's so much fun. Tell me what it is.

I can't wait for you to see it. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's like one giant acid trip yeah it is yeah and uh spent spent a few couple weeks in the sound booth with duncan it was so much fun man it was really good yeah it was the best that was so fun and and you have an amazing team of creative people there i mean they were just so. Thank you. Oh, my God.

They were so honest. Pendleton Ward from Adventure Time. He created Adventure Time. He's an authentic genius. He started talking to me, and I'm like, who is that guy? How does he know? He knew exactly what he wanted all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. It was magic. It was so fun. Thank you so much for doing it, Dr. Drew, really. Thank you for having me. It was just so cool to get to work with you. It turns out it's going to be startling to people, I suspect. So I have a call.

I've been home for quite a while. Gentlemen, I believe he's a veteran and has a question for us. Let's get into this. Ethan, thank you for waiting. What's going on? Drew, thanks for taking my call. Big fan fan i've loved you on loveline i love all the stuff you're doing with your mom's house uh so this is awesome uh my question is a couple i don't know a couple months ago i heard you on fox news discussing the homeless problem and you were uh

very adamant and explaining to people that it's not a housing crisis. It's a mental health issue. And I, and I agree with you, but I also think that housing is an issue. And I, and I want to know, you know,

how you propose or how you would solve this problem. Like, how do you give someone that's homeless? They need, you know, maybe medication or therapy. How do you do that? If they have no place of residence? Well, let me just frame that there are billions of dollars on the sidelines

ready to go to help people. They just don't know what to do with it yet. And the federal government, the city, and the county, at least down here in Southern California, all have more than enough space and enough environments in which to take care of people. The problem is, and this is the problem, the people, we're not talking about the trains of the homeless. There are people that are down on their luck and are economically distressed and end on the streets. The average duration on the

street for that population is three months. We're talking about the chronically homeless who are dying at the rate of three a day on the streets of Los Angeles today. Three will die while we're sitting here talking. That's the part that makes me crazy. And that group is largely a resistant population. They suffer from something called anosognosia, which is a block in the ability to understand what's happening to them as a result of their illness or seeing the illness or seeing how the illness operates. It's a feature of the illness. For instance, when you go out, one of the things about drug addicts on the street, only 10% of them ever get treatment, 10%.

And when you go out and interview that 90% that doesn't get treatment, you ask them, why don't you get treatment? Why don't you access what's available? 80% of them, 80% of the 90% say, why would I? I don't need treatment. What's the problem? They want to keep doing it. That's part of the addiction. Same thing is true of schizophrenia and certain states of bipolar. It's anosognosia, and we have privileged that to the point we are privileging that to the point that we are allowing people at committing them to die. So we need to have an environment of care for sure. I would urge everybody to look at something called the Trieste plan, which is a community-based,

vocational rehab, largely outpatient. By the way, some people could be treated from their tents if we had outpatient treatment, and they very quickly would not want to be in their tents anymore once they get the treatment going. So it's's the priority again what program that is trieste trieste plant trieste italy everyone's points that is that's the model of what we should be doing for homeless and i probably know look it's all psychiatric hospital it's all one version of a of a of a well-run psychiatric hospital and the problem is people don't want it. That's the problem. The L.A. County supervisors went out with a bank of showers for homeless,

and they found that to get one homeless person into one shower, it took an average of 14 contacts. That's just showering. There is an illness there creating that block, and we are ignoring that and allowing people to die. If it was dementia causing that block, we would be rushing in to treat these people. But because it's schizophrenia causing it or drug addiction, well, you can't touch them. And that's insane. And I've been to Sacramento. John Morlock has been to Sacramento twice with

family members galore who have resources and they want to bring their loved one home and get them care for and get a place to live and feed them. And the state of California told them to effing take a hike. Take a hike. We're not going to help you. That is bizarre. That is beyond catastrophe. And that's the stuff that makes me crazy. So that's the shorthand version of it. I gave a lecture on C-SPAN where I talk about the history of how we get into this. If you want to see that,

the whole lecture is there. So I'll be up in Sacramento, by the way. Thank you, Drew. All right, man. A week from, and by the way, you're a veteran, true?

Is that true, Ethan? I am. That is true. I was in the Navy for five years. Thank you for your service. I'm telling you, being on the ship listening to you and

all your podcasts with Adam and Drew shows kept me sane. And Duncan too. I'm a fan of his. The military members love the podcast. Awesome. Hey, what do you think about the UFOs the Navy picked up?

Duncan. It's true. You know what I'm talking about. Go ahead. Let's see what he says. Ethan. Sorry, the UFOs? UFOs. I didn't hear that.

Dude, I haven't heard that yet, but I'm down to hear about some aliens. You know? All right, man. Thank you for your service, and thank you for the focus on the veterans. A lot of number of the veterans that are on the streets have neurological issues. Yeah, exactly. Neurological issues that you can't see on the surface that are being neglected.

And again, that's neglect. That is not allowing people to live how they want to live. That's neglect. And no other country neglects sick people. We do that. It's ridiculous. Sorry. Listen, all I have to say is if we're on a planet and we're life forms and we're sentient beings, who's to say that there aren't aliens on other planets?

Yeah, but will they be carbon-based? Why? Why are you? What are you? Some kind of carbon bigot? What do you care? What do you care what they're made out of? I'm more than a bigot.

I'm a carbon apologist. I'm a carbon, because carbon has really special properties that allow life to exist. You got to understand that. And whether or not other- But on this planet, not on another planet. Well, that's the question.

Can other sort of unique molecules have their own sort of form of life out of them? Or did carbon form somewhere else and just do the same thing, just create a different kind of a trajectory of life? We don't know. I'm open to it. Hey, Duncan, what was the guy that was picked up in Las Vegas and taken in by the CIA to look at this special spacecraft? Bob, what's his name? Bob something.

Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar. Now, there's a documentary on Netflix about Bob Lazar. Paul name? Bob something. Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar. Now, here's my, there's a documentary on Netflix about Bob Lazar. Pauline, you know about Bob Lazar? Nope. Okay, Bob Lazar was a physicist, short strokes, very short,

picked up by the government and swept into this Area 51, right? Is that where he went? I think so, yeah. And there he saw a spacecraft and the spacecraft had these four or five units that were these cesium molecules that don't exist on this planet and they created their own gravitational field so this yeah and so this aircraft could move on its own all over

the place and he saw it fly my question about bob lazar i believe everything he says here's the problem me too okay here's the problem okay here's the problem uh this is and he was he was put in a room with some other guy named larry right am i getting the name right wasn't it larry and larry yeah i think it's larry so larry and bob were the guys who were given the most important observation in the history of physics like we're gonna hand over the most important thing that's ever been observed by humanity to bob we're not going to bring in princeton physicist and caltech physicists we're going to give it to bob and larry i think the whole thing was one of the government's

psychology experiments that they used to do on people all the time and in this case they wanted to see how foreign governments would look at deconstructing technologies like our own. And they just observed Bob and Larry and sort of challenged them with all these crazy things and saw how their brains work as a way of hiding technologies of our own. So wait, you think it was like an MKUltra experiment or something? Not MKUltra. MKUltra is more what you were talking about. That all went down at the Kentucky environment you were just talking about with the LSD and stuff. No, I think it was just the military doing experiments on humans the way they used to do it.

They just used to do that. They used to. I love that people think they used to. What's happening now? Who knows? You guys, there are laws and standards. That doesn't mean they're following those laws.

You're right. I mean, they may do it in other countries or something, but I don't think they do it. That's right. They must. I mean, it's such a vast network. A lot of it is so mysterious and so deeply classified. Who knows? Who knows what's going on?

Now you're sounding like a paranoid person, Duncan. Careful. I mean, how are we not all paranoid people? What do you mean? Why would you say that? Are you trying to kill me? Go ahead, Pauline. What were you saying?

Oh, I forgot. But ultimately, I don't know. Old people, I thought. No, no, no, no. Good. I'm so happy. The ripe age of 27, I feel like an old person. No, not.

Maybe it's the hallucinogens you did. I'm just concerned. You're in trouble. No is this a trick to get paulina to fess up that she's been taking psychedelics all the time i feel trapped by the way it worked number one and number two do i do i am i less of a friend to you because of what you're experiencing right what do you mean i think you i do i judge you do i do i am i less of a friend of yours no i don't think so i i respect your pov you're a doctor you can't tell people to go galloping off into the fields and take their clothes off and coat themselves with pagan honey

and have wonderful mushroom orgies and powerful orgasms and don't connect with the moon and regain their soul and glitter bomb the world with joy you're a doctor you can't do that we get to do that we get i like the way i can't i can't create happiness thank you duncan uh you can create happiness you just can't prescribe mushroom orgies yet not yet not yet not yet uh all right you guys are both overwhelming i don't know where to go from here. Read some of the comments. Do you have your restream up? I am looking at them.

And a lot of them like my theory about Ed Lazar. Was that his name? Ed Lazar? Yeah. That was Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar. Yes. I beg your pardon.

Yes. Reverse engineering of flying saucers is what they were sort of asked to do. And to me, that's like, and they never really did it. And there was a lot of missing information that I didn't make sort of a sense from a physics standpoint, even though it was an interesting story. And I thought they're just probably deconstructing technology and they just want to see how humans do that. And that because that's all classified,

that's why we don't ever hear what was actually happening to it. All right. Anyway. Well, I mean, you know, Rogan had him on the show. I talked to Joe and he's, and he said, the guy is like, that's why we don't ever hear what was actually happening to him all right anyway well i mean you know rogan had him on the show i talked to joe and he's and he said the guy is like completely on the level one of the things he said he kept saying is i'm not making any i he doesn't do paid appearances or something like he's he's not he's clearly not profiting from the the notoriety he's gotten from uh exposing whatever the hell this thing was.

And now that we're seeing these new crafts that are appearing, that seem to be defying or at least operating according to an understanding of physics that isn't our understanding of physics, it makes me think maybe he did see something. Maybe they figured out how to reverse engineer it. Maybe it wasn't an alien craft. It was just some cutting-edge technology that they wanted to show. I don't know. Agreed.

Agreed. Agreed. Let's get some calls in here. This is Chad. Hey. Oh, my goodness. Hey, Chad. Go ahead.

Chad. Hey, what's up, Dr. Drew? Thanks for having me on, man. You bet. I'm a veteran as well, which I just listened to Ethan, but I've been an active addict for probably 17 years now. What drug? Excuse me? What substance is it?

Mainly opiates. But, you know, once you get to a certain point, it's pretty much whatever will get you high to check out and become numb, really. Right, so I'm guessing we're talking about heroin meth, the combo we're into? Yeah, pretty much. It seems to be more of that these days that's what it sounds like okay heroin meth got it um but i've also been through a substance

abuse treatment nine times through a hospital with no success um i think the longest period of sobriety that i've had is or i don't even call it sobriety clean time, would be maybe 20 days, 25 days. What's the longest period of time you stayed in a structured environment? Like a halfway house, that kind of thing? Well, I had to do what they call the alpha program when I was incarcerated and that was a four-month therapeutic community where you had to uh you know have affirmations daily you had structured routine daily how'd you do which was also an incarcerated environment right I understand you were mandated to it but how'd you do there actually Actually really good. I came out very positive,

had a good outlook. Right, right. So hold on. And within two weeks. Yeah, I'm sure. And so were you on Suboxone at that time, or have you been on sustained Suboxone, or something like that? I had before in the past, but being incarcerated,

there is no maintenance medication or nothing like that. It's complete. Okay. So here's the bottom line. First of all, thank you for your service, number one. Number two, I would look at this as you've only been treated nine times. Bob Forrest, who you know I work with all the time, needed 24 treatments,

and he feels like every single one of those was an important process in getting him to ultimate sobriety. But with your story, there are two big things that need to be done. And I'm sorry, you may not like this. One is I think replacement therapy for you is a real option. So something like low dose of Suboxone would be a good idea. Number two, four months isn't long enough. Opiate addiction, it's often one to two years of structured living for people really to kind of get it. So you've done good. You've done good for periods of time. I would look all this as part of the process. You've been successful.

You've tried things. You know what works. Now let's take it all the way. Let's get into an environment that you can stay in for a year. Let's get on some low-dose replacement therapy of some type. And I'm imagining PTSD and other traumas are figuring in there. And once you've been stabilized, that kind of thing can also get treated. All right, man.

Thanks so much. Duncan, any comments? No. I mean, what a nightmare it is to get hooked on opiates. My God. I always think about that. It is. Go ahead.

Sorry. Today, the meth combo is almost ubiquitous. People are using meth with the heroin. And the meth is what makes things almost untreat people are using meth with the heroin and the meth is what makes things almost untreatable it's such a horrible drug and it's it's just speed balls well speed balls traditionally were cocaine and heroin now they're speed and heroin and it's just it's just the worst combination it makes people extraordinarily difficult to treat i did meth once yeah congratulations it was horrible it was the worst it was off i mean

for a second i felt like i was a divine being but then the crash from it was the way this is what happened i did it it was so dumb like math and i don't even know what i was just i should never have done it but i wanted to see what it was like. You know, everyone's talking about it, but I ended up walking out of my friend's place at 10 AM feeling like I'd had the best night's sleep, like completely rested. I hadn't slept at all. Took a cab home, got home, cleaned my house, got all this, got stuff done. And then I can't even explain the crash. I've done so many psychedelics. I have never experienced a crash like that.

The deepest, instantaneous depression. It felt like someone had taken a saw blade to my brain. I couldn't think. And it lasted days. It was horrible. And guess what, Duncan? If you're an addict, what are you going to do? You're going to run for another hit. Right. Right. And if you do that over even a few weeks, it affects your thinking. The paranoia start to

develop. You become more resistant to treatment and guidelines. And the ultimate, if you do it long enough, which sometimes isn't that long, you get severe paranoid preoccupations and bizarre delusions with the focus on people close to you, family, friends, neighbors, coworkers. It's so difficult. No kidding.

Hey, Dad, I've never done meth. Congratulations. Thank you. That's good. It's a relief. One you haven't done. That's not true. I've done meth with Paulina.

She's the one who gave it to me, Dr. Drew. I didn't want to either. She bullied me. See? She bullied me into it. Some part of you is evil, Duncan. I know that. I know that about you.

Well, some part of all of us is evil isn't it i guess that's true i guess that's true i guess that's true all right man i i'm gonna let you go i wish you know i wish we had i caleb i should have thought of this we don't i want to play uh at least part of his tesla uh appearance uh on drunk history do we have any way of doing that? Probably not. We can't do that. Is there a link? I want to watch it later. There's a link on drdrew.com.

We'll put a link up to Tesla particularly and maybe also the dolphin one that you and I did. Here's the deal, my friend. Next time you are not allowed to do Drunk History without me being there or at least being... Next time I want to be an actor in one of your episodes. Yes, that would be awesome. I would like for us to be actors in somebody else's story that would be cool yes paulina what a joy to meet you it's really nice to meet you you're amazing thanks for having me on your show dr drew uh it's always a blast to get to hang out with you let's get

dinner again sometime all right did you meet p me at Pete Holmes again. Okay, cool. Awesome. Yes, please come. Okay. And we'll do your show. You email me. We'll set up a time. Okay, thank you. I really appreciate it. Okay.

Thanks a lot, y'all. Lovely to meet you. Love you, Duncan. We love you. Love you back. Thanks, y'all. Love you guys. So,

Mr. Producer, why don't we break a little early here? Yes? We'll come back and take some calls. Yes, we have a doctor on the line. A psychiatrist. Oh, is she on the line already? Yes. Okay, why don't we break a little early here? Yes. We'll come back and take some calls. Yes. We have a doctor on the line. Psychiatrist.

Oh, is she on the line already? Yes. Okay, good. She's actually waiting and ready to go. Great. So let's break now. I do want to get to some of your calls. And by the way, those of you that are on hold.

Call in. Well, I do plan. We are, as I said, going to have a bonus episode at the end here where I'm just going to do calls. 984 to Dr. Drew. Yeah. And let's take a little break. We all need a little breather. just going to do calls. 984 to Dr. Drew. Yeah. And let's take a little break. We all need a little breather. Be right back.

Ask me questions. Be right back. Be right back. The CBD industry is still pretty much the Wild West. When it comes to claims and criticisms, the science is catching up with the industry. We will have clinical science soon enough. And there seems to be an overwhelmingly positive response these days to CBD's efficacy. We've all heard the reports. And luckily, our good friends at Social CBD are raising the industry testing standards. They like to say they are test obsessed.

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That is my website, drdrew.com slash s-o-c-i-a-l-c-b-d. For a limited time, you can save 20% at checkout with the code DRDREW. Now let's get back to the show. Needles have increasingly become a part of everyday life. Proper disposal is both difficult and expensive. We have the solution. Simpler, safer, affordable, and fulfills the obligation to protect our environment. A single stick with something like this means tracking down the user,

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Stop using ancient technology. SandMidi. it will solve your problems find out more at needle destruction device.com let me get on the phone now a psychiatrist uh dr gita i think vahid i hope i'm pronouncing your name properly website is the ketamine training center.com is it dr vahid is that Dr. Vaid. Vaid, I beg your pardon. So it looks like I was putting some weird non-English sort of interpretation, but I apologize. Dr. Vaid, so let's start with, you heard some of the conversation we were getting into regarding the risks and benefits of hallucinogenics, and it is sort of the wild, wild west.

Let's start with ketamine, since that's the one for which there is a lot of objective data and a lot of good clinical experience. Yes, thank you very much for having me. First of all, it's a pleasure to be here. I work with ketamine a lot. I am a psychiatrist in private practice in New York City. I'm also a psychoanalyst, so I do a lot of psychotherapy, but I'm very involved with ketamine as part of the ketamine training center, which is really a center to teach physicians how to really administer ketamine for ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. So I do a lot of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. So in that way, you have the flexibility to use it as a medication where there's a lot of data

and a lot of wonderful results for treatment-resistant depression, depression and anxiety, but also to really shift how we're practicing psychotherapy. And it is the one psychedelic that is FDA-approved and available, and a very interesting, good one. I think of it more as a dissociative anesthetic than a psychedelic. Am I wrong in doing so? No, I think think you're right that's how it's classified and it's been used as an anesthetic for really long period of time but it does have psychedelic properties and so even though it acts on different different receptor systems it does have psychedelic experience and a lot of us believe that the deeper access to aspects of self and being as well as the psychedelic experience itself,

can have therapeutic value when used in the right context. You know, the second setting is critical. And I love what Paulina said about intention. That was very thoughtful. Say it again if people didn't hear it, the intentionality. I said I really appreciated the intention. No, no, no. I mean Paulina's statement, because we have people coming in and out of the show here.

Set and setting is absolutely necessary. But having an intention before and interacting with any drug is important because it allows you to be purposeful about what you're doing. In addition, something I was thinking about, it's really important if you're on medications to research. How about ask your psychiatrist? Well, ask your your psychiatrist first usually psychiatrists will say no well and then you i think actually ketamine one of the nice things is it has very few interactions with medicines and when psychiatrists say no generally it's because a lot of the medicines can block or inhibit the effects of psychedelics, most psychedelics.

But I think you're right. It's to be responsible. It's to be responsible with the way in which you're using it. And a lot of what you mentioned in terms of your stability and thoughtfulness going into a process is so important and so wise. So, Dr. Veidt, you're sort of, the ketamine story is pretty well worked out. It works for depression. It just does. There's various different ways of doing it.

But you're advocating using a throwback to something that was being researched back in the 60s, which was psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, right? And I think that's what you're aiming towards. Is that accurate? That's right. I'm also a MAPS therapist. So I'm very involved with MAPS, which do psychedelic psychotherapy with MDMA for PTSD. So it's really amazing for trauma. It's also amazing for the kind of trauma that brings people into my office for deeper work. And the reason I'm such an advocate is not only because it's a novel antidepressant.

Actually, a lot of psychedelics are novel antidepressants with very few side effects. But more than that, I think the magic in them, from my point of view, or the huge advantage, is that it can really lead to deeper healing and really foundational correction, which is an extraordinary process to really, I think it's just a huge game changer in healing and psychiatry potentially. Give people a little primer on what MAPS is in case people don't know. Yes, definitely. MAPS is an incredible organization, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies studies and they're really being the leader in really promoting psychedelics for healing and a lot of the studies which are which

are leading to hopefully fda approval of mdma for assisted psychotherapy they're also doing some other studies as well looking at relationships for veterans and even conflict resolution in the Middle East. They're a very extraordinary organization. Yeah, I worry about clinicians going beyond the clinical, like into sort of social engineering that has always gone bad. So it worries me when clinicians want to do that. But I want to drill in a little more i think we're really talking about the therapeutic psychotherapeutic treatment of trauma ultimately right isn't that really where the main focus is here absolutely i think that

pretty much captures the essence of this yeah and and also the way we think about psych in psychiatry about illness and disease and symptom relief and managing symptoms, I think it really opens up a different way of thinking about how do we think of trauma? How do we think of healing? How are we diagnosing people? And what's going off with our alignments and our internal connections and external connections? Give me those thoughts. Give a little primer on that. How were you thinking about it differently now than say when you were training in psychoanalysis very well one of the main things that i see that is so amazing is how much i'm very interested in character and personalities and i think that that's really the foundations of psychoanalysis and defenses and how much of our energies are placed towards protecting ourselves in characteristic ways that define us, that really

result in us being the characters that we are. And we're all trying to use the best of ourselves to really cope with life and manage. And then invariably, there's a cost to that. We get stuck in these prisons of our character. And psychedelics really allow us to open that up and access different ways of coping, different ways which are more flexible, more in sync with who we are right now, different upgrades of who we are, our sense of identity and self which is formed in childhood perhaps with not the ideal resources. I mean I really think it takes a village to raise someone. We don't have that village. And so it's really quite extraordinary. I do think that, you know, psychedelics are extraordinary. I think of the therapeutic relationship being as important oftentimes to this work as the medicine itself to do some of that deeper work, or if not, at least deep

thoughtfulness and preparedness entering into an experience to really access the full potential. I totally get it because as you both, you and I know that resistance is one of the big problems that we run into. And it seems like these are therapeutic tools to help diminish resistance or gain access, open up, all those same kinds of words. But let me throw a challenge out where I worry about all this, which is that I'm certain you as a psychiatrist, I as somebody working at psychiatric hospital for many years, saw lots of adverse consequences from hallucinogen use. Now again- Like what? Mood disturbances, personality changes, cognitive changes. And as I told you,

in the severe cases where they couldn't even take care of themselves anymore. But who knows how much they were using and what context and what they were using and all this stuff. So there's some potential downside. When you start talking about changing the personality, we're really talking about changing the brain. Don't you worry that there might be some process unleashed that we don't fully understand there? Well, I think that I don't think psychedelics are for everyone. So I certainly am not an advocate of everyone will get better with psychedelics. So I really think there has to be careful selection of the person. I do see people all the time who really want to

try them. And I just feel they don't have the strengths or the capacities at this moment so i think some of it depends on who are the subjects you have to have appropriate perhaps pieces in place to really benefit and and not to be fair the the it's got to be people that maybe have failed other modalities and the risks are worth the benefits the benefits are worth the risk right i mean you will take some more risk with somebody that has recalcitrant. No, I wouldn't even go that far. Actually, I wouldn't say that for ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. I don't think it has to be.

Well, not ketamine. Yeah, I'm not thinking about ketamine because ketamine we understand. You know what I mean? We've got the data. I'm thinking of the things where we don't have the data yet. Even though we have lots of anecdotes, we don't have the data. I mean, I think the anecdotal evidence on the internet is the basis for research at this moment. I think that there is a benefit to having the internet and having people report. It's anecdotal, but it's all anecdotal.

I mean, it's not scientific. We are getting a lot of the safety studies under our belt, which I think are very important. I mean, it's interesting with psychedelics because we do have a lot of history and knowledge from previous studies which weren't adequate and are being repeated. And we do have. So it is one of those interim periods where we are getting some of the safety data, which will be very important and very necessary. So I do think that's an important piece. But to your point, Drew, I do really support what you're saying i think that psychedelics need to be carefully evaluated individuals because i have seen disasters and difficult outcomes with even ssris when i've given people antidepressants so it's not true that psychedelics though they're safe will not cause those i think i see all the time um people who have been in ayahuasca circles who have invited a psychosis and i would say i'm a big advocate of psychedelics for healings and

psychedelic assisted psychotherapy but that doesn't mean to say you can't have disastrous consequences when used in the wrong context in the wrong situations and also sometimes unexpectedly difficulties arise and they have to be managed so so let me let me frame it this way which is that there's no medication that doctors recommend that is not potentially dangerous. All medications are dangerous. They're extra physiological, whether it's your hypertension med or your antidepressant, whatever. These are all dangerous chemicals. That's why we're so careful in how we try to be careful in how we administer them. And we try to have a ton of science to back us up so we can understand the risk-benefit ratios every time we do it.

And I'm used to a lot of that in general medicine, and so when I don't have that, I start to get very worried. It might be the greatest treatment ever conceived for humanity, but until the data is there, I get very worried. Let me bring in somebody, a friend and somebody everyone I think knows. Jane's Addiction, he's also from the show Ink Master, none other than Dave Navarro. Dave, you there?

Hey Drew how are you? Hey buddy good to hear from you you hear this conversation? Yes I have and I gotta chime in and I actually say that based on my own experiences in terms of working with psychedelics

on my own and working in terms of sitting with people in on my own and working in terms of sitting with people in space that were working on their own issues. I've seen it go both ways too. And I think the element that we're missing here is the integration post journey, because the journey themselves can open somebody who's very traumatized, who's got a lot of deep, locked up, stuffed away darkness, an unexplained journey is going to be even more traumatic for them. And they're even more susceptible to them, given the circumstances. So I think a lot of the misconception. Yeah. I'm sorry. So it'd be re-traumatizing. Yeah. Potentially, potentially without some kind of somebody in place to help

with the integration into their practical lives moving forward. So for instance, some of the journeys that I've gone on didn't show, they didn't reveal their gifts until six months down the line. Wow. It's not a cure. What I'm saying is journey work has worked for me and I am a proponent and advocate for it myself. However, I believe that it, it requires care. It requires a setting and safety and even a clinician, perhaps a therapist, a trusted circle of people. And for me, that way the safety is there, the likelihood of a traumatic event is lessened because you've got safety in a circle of people you trust. And then moving forward, having taken notes, having treated this as a clinical journey and documenting what comes up during the journey and then processing that in therapeutic cognitive therapy moving forward, we can then see the meanings and the gifts and the journeys. And I have a lot of friends that make the mistake of going to a friend's house at two in the morning for an ayahuasca circle thinking

it's going to fix all their problems right and that's when i think we and and that's when i think we run into trouble and i think the doctor might agree with that i think she will before i go back to her though uh two things from you tell them about your radio show and your documentary documentary well the documentary is called morning sun and it's uh it's actually spelled M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G-S-O-N. And it's about the tragic murder of my mother and my journey through that. And it's available on Amazon and every streaming platform. And then as far as the radio show, Dr. Drew, I got to tell you, I have taken considerable steps to eliminate my visibility on the internet. So the radio show is done.

Facebook is done. Twitter is done. Blogs are done. I'm done. I'm done with the internet. So if you want to see pictures of my life, go on Instagram. And that's about it. But, yeah, so I've taken a big step back in terms of what's going on today in terms of digital culture. Good for you.

I don't want to be, you know, it's almost like they are trying to crank out these digitally addicted, pharmaceutically addicted little creatures, and I don't want to be one of them. So there you go. And let's go back, Dr. Vare, Vare? Vade. Vade, I beg your pardon. You heard what David said. I'm interested in your comments. I'm sure you agree. I really like what he says. Actually, I thought it was very well said, the integration part, and that's the psychotherapy part. And safety is the other thing he emphasized which I think is so important not only in terms of evaluation and risk but also when you know the person who's supporting you and has a way of

actually trying to understand and make meaning of the process with you and sometimes it is a process but it really shifts things when I've been working with individuals who have maps and a preparedness of knowing who they are knowing what's's impacted them, having a context, having a therapeutic alliance to, in that set and setting, to go into an experience can be quite an extraordinary healing process. Dave, what are sort of testing? Wait, Dave, first. Dave, first on your question.

Dave, go ahead. I'm going to let you go, Dave. Go ahead. Yeah, because I. I just want to add. Yeah, because I think we're all on the same team, and this is so new, and this is so experimental that that's why I feel so many precautions need to be in place

because if what we're talking about is opening up new neural pathways, so I agree that that is taking place and that there are studies that show that with psilocybin and guys like Terence McKenna that you may think are crazy or not, I think that there is some legitimacy to some of his theories. But in any event, if you're opening up new neural pathways, there has to be a way to implement using those new narrow pathways in your day-to-day life.

So, for instance, I used to spin out on a negative pathway. Every outcome was going to be negative. And after a lot of journey work, my pathways opened up and, oh, there's a possible positive outcome here. And I could choose the pathway I go. But it took deep integration to learn how to access those pathways and make that choice. And I think that that's one of the wonderful things about these journeys. And I think that, and I have, and this is irresponsible for me to say, but I have seen people come out of journeys and they're transformed, period, end of story no integration next necessary and i've also seen

a lot of people who are deeply severely traumatized come out and need lots of integration and myself being one of them yeah and and those ones that are magically changed i i worry about that it's like what change we're talking about brain change and what do you know have we you know is there untoward change in there somewhere that we just don't detect? I mean, it looks good on the surface, but what have we done to that person's brain? That's all the stuff I worry about as an internist. We don't know. And you're right.

And in terms of long-term, I don't know. And there's one of those kinds of thought process that goes into the overall universal context of this is, hey, man, if they end up a little crazy and a lot happy, what's to stop them? You know what I mean? I get it. I get that, but you should know that the literature back in the 60s

when they were researching this stuff, they'd go well, they seem like a little more upbeat and caring and empathic people now, so whatever's happening, we like it. It's like, yeah, yeah, but you changed the person and that's and dr vade what i would say is what i've understood from the process in working with trauma is it's not as if you see transformations of a person shifting like a jacqueline hyde story it really is much subtler than that although the subtlety can be quite profound what you really see which can be quite extraordinary, is how much energy is put in one's character towards protection and really

survival. And when you see that force, when someone feels safe to actually be transformed towards not being so focused on their protective self, they wind up actually transforming to being able to look beyond themselves into their brother or their cousins or their neighbor. And it usually is a transformation where the person will say, this is who I am, generally speaking, when I feel safe. And it's been 10 years since I've been in this mindset or place. It's more who I am, not less who I am. It's that kind of transformation. It's not transforming into being another person, because I do think our natural human condition, when we feel safe, is to be able to not be so me, me, me,

which I think is just an expression of trying to take care of ourselves and feel better. The feel better might get lost in, I need more. Maybe I'm just feeling empty and hungry because I don't have enough. Perhaps I need a second home. Perhaps I need a different wife. You know, whatever that might look like societally based. It doesn't work, of course. But I think when people feel safe, they generally feel so grateful. They look to someone else.

Yeah, if I can chime in and what I think she's speaking to, what I've seen is that, you know, and it's been proven, and I believe this for a fact, that trauma physically lives in the body. It physically lives as adrenaline. It physically lives and held within our musculature, within our spiritual character. And people walk around miserable with their lives seemingly perfect because they're holding on to old trauma. And I think that sometimes some of these journeys can help access that trauma and lift it and help someone to drop it. And I have seen that happen and seen the weight lifted from them. In other cases, I've seen people be lifted of that very trauma six months, a year down the line, sometimes with multiple sessions. I heard you talk about ketamine, which is a whole different thing about treating depression versus opening something up to a new awareness.

I think there's more of a spiritual journey with the psilocybin, with the MDMA, with the ayahuasca for sure. That's just been my experience. But it's different for everybody. But I just want to say that to be responsible about this, I'm not speaking about someone who, who has worked with psychedelics solely. I'm also someone who spent years in therapy, years in programs, years in trying different alternative ways. So then when I got to the point of a journey,

I had the dialogue, I had the language, I was able to express myself in terms that made sense on a clinical and a psychological level and express myself clearly because I had years and years of working on myself prior to diving into this. I relate to that a lot. I think by the time that I experienced psilocybin, I had been in therapy for six years. And so all of the work that I had done in therapy was sort of extended into my journey. Dr. Veda and Mr. Navarro, while you were speaking,

I was thinking about how to describe the phenomenon. Rather than changing the personality, I think it's more of a change of disposition. Would that be fair to say? Hopefully. I would think in my case, it allowed me the option to change my disposition. You're still not going to, you're not going to give me some, I'm not going to have a journey and wake up a different person that's, you know, I am an empathic person.

I'm a sensitive person by nature. But what used to be what's called looping, which is when the brain gets in a traumatic loop and it's only going down one neural pathway and it can only see one negative outcome. When you open up other neural pathways, you are now given the option to react differently to life stressors. Dave, I'm going to let you go, man. I appreciate you spending a little time with us. It's been now given the option to react differently to life stressors. Dave, I'm going to let you go, man. I appreciate you spending a little time with us. It's been really cool, and I hope you're well.

Anytime, man. Thank you. Bye, buddy. Take care. Bye-bye. Dr. Vey, let's talk a little bit, a couple more specific things. Really what we're looking for in trauma therapy is integration. Would you agree that we're trying – it's not – Dave talked about breaking loops, negative loops, anxiety loops, that kind of thing,

which those sort of circuits obviously are problematic. But I always think about it more as parts of the brain that are inaccessible to flexible regulation by other parts of the brain. And I wonder if we have any theory, if that's true, if you agree with that, A. B, do we have any idea how these hallucinogenics help with that? I think that, I do think it kind of can, I think there's different ways of thinking about this different things we're seeing and conceptualizing it. I do think it can lead to much better regulation, homeostasis regulation, even character regulation,

emotional regulation. I mean, I've seen people even on a nervous system level, feel more regulated, more able to breathe, it gets to be quite meditative, it can be dropping out of your thinking mind. And meditation, oftentimes, I really try and introduce mindfulness practices, meditation practices, a lot of people who couldn't meditate before because they were too stuck in loops and thoughts feel that they're able to actually break some of those obsessive thinking patterns and can for the first time sit and meditate. But it's really dropping out of your thinking mind more into the sensual wisdom and intelligence that resides in the body, which is not just we all walk around in our heads and minds.

And I just want to say one other thing to follow on on the transformation idea or the shifting patterns. I think that, you know, it's such a scary idea. Even when I hear you talk about characters change, that sounds really unpleasant. And that's not what I see in my office. It is much more a sense of really, you know, what I hear all the time is people feeling, wow, I feel more like myself. Or the process of transformation is more almost like a blossoming into the fullness of one's potential as opposed to being stuck in developmentally immature patterns of behavior or resorting to very early young primitive defenses that we all employ under fear and stress or metabolizing

trauma that's held in our body or minds that really blocks us, these trauma loops and these kind of patterns that we live in that we can't get out of. Do you have a theory about what's going on biologically? What do I think is going on? Well, there's a lot of incredible studies looking at the default mode networks in our brains, in our brains where you really how much of our identity, sense of selves and characters are really held in the circuitry in our minds, which don't get upgraded. So to actually have a chance to really be out of that for several hours in a different space and see the world in different ways, not defined by these loops is one theory that's on the table, which is quite powerful. I do also think in that space there's really a potential with the defenses down really to, in correspondence, in the therapy and the human-to-human relationship,

have an upgrade in terms of some of those capacities, all of which are born out of early child-parent relationships. I mean, we come into this world really unable to regulate ourselves, leaning on caregivers. So in that space, to actually have a chance to have a redo, with a therapist,

you can be a really good parent for 45 minutes. Right. So your school of psychoanalysis is relational psychoanalysis? Is that accurate? Yes. Yeah. That's right. And would you just give people, people don't, people get so confused about mental health

work and what people's training is. Explain to people what a psychiatrist is and what a psychoanalyst is because they're very different. They're very different. So I'm a psychiatrist, which means I went to medical school, did four years of residency training in psychiatry at NYU Medical Center. I actually did two years of research subsequent to that. And then I did psychoanalytic training, which is a whole different training where you have a couple of years of didactics.

And then many, many years, way too many, probably eight years where I was in analysis myself and also analyzing patients myself with supervision and lectures. So that's kind of an internal process, kind of like analysis is actually. But it really gives you a deeper sense of yourself. Right. So developing the caretaker, the doctor, as an instrument. You have to be developed as an instrument of the psychoanalytic process. It's an instrument. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for saying that. It really is making you really able to use yourself in a different way in therapy to be an instrument, which I think if you can combine those capacities with this deeper access you have in the deeper field, it can be a winning combination. But I love the caution and the care you're bringing

because I do worry about some of the excitement, even though I'm very excited about it, of it really leading to misuse and inappropriate use and a lot of casualties, which I think we saw happen in the 60s, which I think led to the whole movement being closed down, when there was at the same time a wonderful research happening, showing all sorts of exciting promises. And I worry for the same thing happening again, out of excitement and enthusiasm. Right. And there's a lot of people sort of doing it on their own or doing it on the DL. See, that's what I keep thinking about. I keep thinking about, you know, the 17-year-old who's in his mom's basement doing psychedelics. I'm not even talking about that.

That's not good. I'm talking about people that are doing it with so-called therapists or maybe good therapists or I don't know good therapists because I don't know what's required. There's no guidelines yet. And so it's just worrisome. That's all. And lots of good results. Lots of good results being anecdotally reported. Will they sustain?

Will they go for five years, ten years? We just don't have that. I guess I worry about privilege. I mean, obviously, we want a privileged space in which there's guidance and expertise. But most people don't have access to a ketamine center where they can go. I mean, if you're in the middle of nowhere and you hear that ketamine's cool and you're going to try it, what would your advice be for someone who is going to try it, going to do it? Let's differentiate. Ketamine for depression is for recalcitrant depression that has failed other therapeutic intervention dr vade is doing ketamine psychotherapy or psychoanalysis

psychotherapy which is a different person i also wanted just to say one thing about david navarro he did say something about ketamine in his experience not being a very soulful medicine and i have to say because um i work with it a lot, I think that actually ketamine has gotten a bad reputation because it's an anesthetic. And I think so much of it is dose related. It can be a very gentle, I'm also a big proponent of the low dose versus the high dose range. So it can be quite subtle, it can be quite anxiolytic, it can be quite meditative and very soulful. So I just think a lot of it depends, once again, on how you use these. Some people take heroic doses, and that's a whole different

experience. And then, of course, there's so much lack of knowledge. But I do understand your point, Pauline. It's a very good one. People are reading about this, and they really want these medicines. And I think a lot of conversations are happening. There is a lot of states actually that are looking into decriminalization and trying to be responsible of how do we have environments where people can get care and treatment because there is an underground movement.

There's some wonderful underground therapists. There are also some terribly scary underground therapists and I've met, seen and see the consequences of both and it's just really hard as a consumer to really distinguish. To be fair, as a primary practitioner, I would have trouble knowing because, again, no guidelines. I don't know. How do I know someone's the right, you know? Would you stay with me for a few minutes and let's take a couple calls about PTSD, which is sort of a trauma-related topic.

Do you mind? Absolutely. Thank you mind? Absolutely. Thank you. All right, let's get into it. This is Michelle who's asking about EMDR and PTSD. So post-traumatic stress disorder we're talking about. Michelle. Yes.

Hi, doctor. Thank you for taking my call. You bet. Go right ahead. You're on. Did we lose you? Okay. I've been clean and sober for 32 years.

Congratulations. Thank you. I've been in weekly therapy for 42 years, and I have had repeated victimization for 60 years. So hold on. So slow down. Wait, wait, wait. Slow down, slow down.

So in spite of sobriety and treatment, you had adverse childhood experience characterized by a victimization? That's your original trauma, is that correct? Yeah, I've had a series of victimizations. The most significant that really took me out, I was in a battered women's shelter and I witnessed a brutal murder. And so that's where I got my PTSD diagnosis. Okay, I get it. And in childhood, what was the big trauma, big T trauma?

Incest. Okay. So there's sexual abuse in childhood. There's a huge event in adulthood that triggers essentially a chronic PTSD. This is sort of how PTSD gets set up. And there's what's called, and I'm glad we have a psychoanalyst here. What Dr. Freud would call repetition compulsion that we now call traumatic reenactments. Dr. Vade, talk about that a little bit. Yes, well, this is exactly what we were alluding to earlier. Nice to meet you, Michelle, and I'm sorry to hear your story,

that we do, all of us, as people get stuck in these trauma complexes that sometimes we kind of almost get stuck. Freud would call it the repetition compulsion. And I do think you have a lot of support. It sounds like you've done incredible work, but it's very difficult to really escape from some of these patterns. And I do think that EMDR, which is a whole different process, can really be quite helpful in that in the con in concert with psychotherapy and this is exactly the picture where some someone like yourself would benefit potentially from the work that we're doing in the study with severe ptsd with psychotherapy assisted with mdma where one really has a chance

to almost metabolize the trauma in the safety of a relationship and sometimes really let go of some of these really, really difficult patterns that are so ingrained that are very painful to be part of. And so this is, I think, really where psychedelics can be a whole new approach, which is quite extraordinary. So EMDR, yes, Michelle, if you have access to that. Okay. Definitely worth trying. Psychotherapy, I would say with the right therapist, you know, you really can do some trauma work with ketamine, but it really is in the context of a really safe relationship. This is where the therapy piece is critical. Right. And't do you want

referrals i mean should we put your stuff up on my website if people can come um thank you that's very kind the ketamine training center actually has a link to physicians um that we've trained over the after the u.s okay so the ketamine training center.com yes that's right okay and you use an interesting phrase you talked talked about metabolizing trauma. First, I heard about metabolizing trauma. Probably it was Peter Fonagy talking about this. And he always talked in terms of the psychoanalyst receiving the trauma and giving it back in a metabolized form. Is that what you mean? Or is it literally you're doing something to the brain with the psychedelics? Well, it's really interesting because some of these processes that Peter

Farnagy and analysts have thought about for years, or even the function of the mother in infant child development, it really opens up the process to happen in a very interesting way in the context of the long psychedelic psychotherapy session, be it with ketamine or be it with MDMA. And it probably is a mixture of both. I think in the safety, sometimes it is the affects, the states are tolerated by the therapist and then able to be taken back in. But I think that's one thread. The other thread is the person oftentimes in the safety. I've seen this with veterans in the safety where they are actually have the amygdala turned off. They can actually review what happened in the battlefield or what happened in their childhood. So it's almost sharing the experience, going through it in great detail.

So it's almost like that's sort of the way we treat phobias, right? Is being able to get into them and tolerate it without anxiety. Exposure therapy. It's a kind of exposure therapy. Yeah, but exposure without. It's really like a re-experiencing. It's like a re-experiencing and it really feels as if you're,

you know, as a therapist, sometimes it can be quite actually overly intense to go through the experience and also a privilege to play that role. But it's kind of extraordinary because you feel like they have a chance of really being able to play that role but it's kind of a struggle because you feel like they have a chance of really being able to process go through it let go of it and that is really quite a different process than an analytic process even right it's almost an extension so so

right yeah so there's a lot packed into what she just said there right yeah uh and that is an example of her using herself and body and brain as an instrument to receive the trauma and experience it with the patient which is the part we were kind of talking about there and then offering it back in a metabolized form which again is this the process of analysis in a weird way but go ahead but i guess i mean obviously that is the ideal condition right you have someone who can help you through traumatic events. But I just, I immediately jumped to people who do not have access to that. I understand.

We'll talk about that in a second. But that's part of the problem with getting people into trauma therapy. They resist coming in because they don't want to revivify the trauma. And it's hard to convince them that that's not going to be a re-traumatizing process. And it can be. It oftentimes can be very traumatizing. Even I've had patients come to see me who don't want to talk about the trauma because they'll get worse but i would argue right

but i would argue that in skilled hands you won't let that happen absolutely that's correct and also the right conditions right right right so what do we do about the lack of access to mental health care in america which is what you keep alluding to. I mean, that is an overarching problem. And it's a massive issue. And by the way, we have a shortage of psychiatrists. We have a shortage of psychiatric beds. We have a shortage of resources. We have an IMD exclusion for the chronically mentally ill. We have almost nobody trained like Dr. Vade.

I'm jealous of your training. It's rare to find, and you know what I'm talking about, the combo of treatments of training that you've had. What do we do? Paulina won't let us go. Well, it's not even just that. It's more of the, you know, I'm thinking of like the 15-year-old in Wisconsin

who has, it's meth or ketamine, you know, it's either or. The fact is there are armies of people out there. There really are. But I'll let Dr. Vade see what her opinion is on this. I think we're going to have to come up with a hybrid solution, obviously. We are going to have to do something to make care available. But I would say, if I'm going to go back to psychedelics particularly, and this is, you know, if you bear with me, because this doesn't really answer the access to care.

Although I would say the Ketamine Training Center, where we actually have a foundation to try and offer access to care for lower fee care so we are trying to make an effort to try and address there's a lot of that out there's a lot of if you if you do a lot of there's a lot of stuff out there but but anyway go i understand what you're saying you're right right now it starts off with being this is a very new treatment it's a very expensive treatment and it's not really affordable for most individuals. And of course, paradoxically, people with trauma can't work. So they're even going to be people who need it more. So all of that is true. My concern though, is what I hear a lot with psychedelics is we need to scale it. We need to dispense it. And that becomes the pressing number

one issue. And I think that that need is there and that thinking is correct. The problem is we haven't worked out what is the best way to deliver it. How can we do it in the most conscientious way, which is probably going to be the most detailed, expensive, cost-inaffordable, cost-inefficient in every single way. And I still feel to sort it out, even if it makes it the most complex sessions, my sessions are three to four hour long. That's not very affordable. That's not very safe. You know, I make, I'm probably the only ketamine therapist who loses money on ketamine sessions as opposed to making money.

But you can see how the thoughtfulness, the care, it's such beautiful work. And once we understand how to do it, that's when I think you can see where can we cut it out? Where can we actually then find what are the most important pieces? Where can we then find different ways of packaging to make it more affordable? But unless you, if you skip that step, I think you wind up actually sometimes missing out in the most important ingredients and perhaps shifting it to being a really good antidepressant, which I have to say psychedelics are really good antidepressants,

and I have no problem using them. We think. Well, a lot of them, ketamine, I think we can say confidently is. Yes, we can. And it's very promising with the others. And my pet peeve is when people are doing ketamine-assisted or psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, and they imagine they're doing the psychotherapy,

and they tell themselves they're that, but they're not even aware that in fact, it's much more of the biological antidepressant effect, which I think is fine as long as you know what you're doing and the pieces have been sorted out. When there's a confusion, that's what I find really actually,

that's my pet peeve. I feel like let's know what we're doing. Let's offer several different treatments and let's get better at then finding, changing policies and coverage. And because this really shifts the way in which mental health is delivered and even diagnosed potentially.

I have a caller from Japan who wants to ask about psychedelic and PTSD and cannabis too, apparently. So Scott, go ahead there. Dr. Drew, thank you for taking my call. I've been listening to a lot And I've been learning a lot too With your talk with the psychiatrist

Dr. Bade Thank you And yeah, very interesting stuff First of all, I want to say that EMDR is a great thing I've done EMDR and it's a little scary at first. It draws out a lot of bad memories

but in the long run, it's worked well for me. It can be intense. It can be very intense. It is. But I highly recommend it. I live in Japan so it's kind of hard for me to get access to this stuff

I'm actually an army veteran, I've done one tour in Iraq and I suffer from PTSD marijuana has worked for me a lot but I am interested in some of the other stuff I used to be a pretty heavy drinker

and I used to kind of push back the demons, I guess. And I've been I've stopped drinking. I, of course, done some of the other stuff that I need to do better diet exercise. But I, I, I still feel like I need something else to kind of get me out, to make me a better person. And I was very interested in psychedelics and the process of getting started. Obviously, in Japan, it's very illegal,

but thinking about moving to the States to try it out even. All right, let's see what Dr. Bates says. Well, I think the first step is to, you know, it's not even that available in the US. Right now, the only medicine of this nature that is available would be ketamine if you're going to do it legally, which, you know, I think probably is the right way to go,

particularly when you're talking about the layers of trauma you've dealt with with the MDR. And you're really engaging in a process. So I think you have to, you know, it is coming. I think it's not widely available. But I think a lot is going to change in the next few years when we know more. And a lot of the medical establishments, Yale, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Harvard, a lot of

the big institutions are developing psychedelic centers. So it's really unfortunate that it's not here yet, but I think things are going to change in the next few years. And I do think to speak to what Dr. Drew was saying, I think everyone is really, it's long necessary and needed, but there's going to be a lot of growth and knowledge in the next few years so to really do your research and maybe stick with what's safe and find the right context in addition to what is safe i'm curious as to what tactics we can employ in order to reduce harm and reduce harm so harm reduction tactics like testing kits obviously set and setting is very important intentions going into it but how do we protect ourselves if we choose to engage with these substances so i'll have her answer just

quick let me just say i think dr vayne i think ucla has a couple of studies underway with uh end of life dread and land of life anxiety and i think mood too so ucla department of psychiatry may have some stuff going on and nyu have some studies. So does Yale University. And MAPS is a really good resource because they have a lot of PTSD studies with many centers all over the United States. So you should really look up that if you're planning on coming to check out

what's available in a research context. So Pauline is asking a question of how to, if you are going to do this, how to do it. Is there a safe way if you're not in a therapeutic relationship or don't have access to care? I would say, I think that's what you're asking. Well, I would say, you know, the two options really that I can see that are available is to do ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and look for a ketamine-assisted psychotherapy therapist. Or if you really need to, you need to go to an underground therapist, and some of the underground therapists are extraordinarily good. But you'd have to do

your research and really take some time getting to know a person and, and finding out where that context would be. There are some centers coming up, you know, synthesis. You mentioned being in Amsterdam, have a program where you can receive psilocybin truffles. They're legal because of a scheduling issue. And so you can receive psilocybin, which is legal in that context with experienced facilitators and a lot of supervision and a medical doctor there. So there are contexts. But once again, it is that one high-dose kind of experience, which I think you have to be very careful about if you're dealing with trauma

because it is the relationship, it is the integration, it is the preparedness. It's much more of a process, not a one-shot deal for most individuals. But I think really be careful, ask around, try and talk to other people who have worked with that individual so you can really have a sense. Try and ask with them and become very educated yourself on what the process is so you really know what you're getting into. She's saying no outside of a therapeutic relationship. Yeah, that's what I thought. But we've learned why truffle pigs go after truffles anyway a lot of psychedelics the other thing i would say is that

a lot of kids have for decades been playing with psychedelics with great experiences and having wonderful experiences i'm always amazed in my office when i ask people psychedelic history how many people have been had tried lsd when they were in college 30 years and so these medicines have always been available even if they've been um unrestricted and that itself even though people have always reported if not having a bad experience a very cool experience a very beautiful experience that alone does not seem to result in therapeutic growth or change so i think you have to be careful with just having a great experience if it could be wonderful is that really a therapeutic experience or is it just a really nice experience that you've had therefore therefore recreational which i'm not even being

disparaging about recreational use i'm just saying you have to distinguish between the two okay so and and you know the the psychiatric part of her and the internist part of me we are drilled with do no harm do no harm do no harm do no harm i'm just thinking like and so do no harm it's hard to say do something that could be harmful as we know okay so you're never going to be like okay here's the testing kit for this thing i mean well you are because you're for instance people run uh tents for lsd bad trips you know know, at raves and things, right? No, that was at Woodstock, I believe. Yeah, Woodstock had things like that, but many raves have things like that. No, they do at Bonnery.

Talking people down is... Go ahead, Dr. Bate. And also at Burning Man, there's a MAPS tent for harm reduction. So people have bad trips and, you know, it's really important to have some of those measures in place. But I think you have it's really important to have some of those measures in place but i think you have to be really careful and also particularly with young adults you don't know what you're going to bring out in young adults so that's the other issue a lot of kids have great experiences but oftentimes even with marijuana i do see individuals it's not the marijuana itself necessarily but it can bring out a capacity or a tendency which is was waiting in the wings

probably would have emerged anyway maybe schizophrenia or something like but you know you know when you bring these things out early they tend to be harder to treat they tend to be more protracted they're more difficult they had it not come out or had it come up four years later four years with a developing brain can change a picture so are you saying wait until your frontal lobes closed at 25 to try? It's a little more complicated than that even. It's not about the frontal lobes so much as the brain development generally and the way mental illness manifests early and the intensity and maybe the drugs are making it worse. We don't know. Again, the we don't know part is the difficult

part. But Dr. Vade, you've been extremely generous with your time and we appreciate it so, so much. Thank you for having me. Again, where people will find you at the Ketamine Training Center, is that correct? The Ketamine Training Center? Yes, that's our training center. On there, there should be a link to providers who are well-trained in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy

across the United States. I hope this was rewarding for you. It was rewarding for us to hear so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, we really appreciate it. Wonderful to be part of the conversation. Thank you. And again, I want to state,

it's not your everyday training that she represents. And so the combination of psychiatry and psychoanalysis is a pretty powerful combo. And I, you know, if you want ultimate training, that's the ultimate training. So congratulations. It's a lot of years. Thank you. I know. Thank you.

And so, you know, not everyone, for sure not everybody has access to that. Right. That's what I mean. I can't even get that for people. I can't find that. Thank you for recognizing that. Believe me, I know. Dr. Vade, we'll let you go.

Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks. Bye-bye. It's just us now wrapping up. You and me and me and you. Two for tea.

So what are your final thoughts? I feel like a criminal. Why? Why? You know. You feel like a criminal. I don't know. It's like weird when your dad is Dr. Drew and you like live your entire life in fear that if you go to jail, you won't get bailed out because dad said on the news that he wouldn't do it.

I said that in high school. Yeah. So you're saying you would bail me out now? Don't travel with any of these things you've been talking about i might have trouble bailing you out if you do something totally dumb but uh if uh you're not an addict i would help you yes if you were part of i don't think i'm an addict no and if we're the whole point was about addiction is that in a setting of addiction you have to bring the consequences to bear right and this is not we're not talking about that i i guess i keep thinking because obviously we're talking to people who have access to therapeutic settings in which they can engage

with these substances ethically and mindfully and i'm thinking about the majority of people who you know joe's cousin has some LSD. Let's do it. You know, how do we combat that? How do we – I almost want like a step-by-step, you know, this is the first thing you do. You set your intentions, one. Number two, you test it, you know. I would go to maps on that. I'm sure they have some stuff on that. See, for a clinician, you just –

You're never going to say do it but you can also it's it's very dicey to be giving ways to do it you know that makes sense yeah and until we know what we're talking about and we just don't have that data yet right don't have it and so it's it's it and i and dr vade had certain amount of confidence with it because she used it a lot and she's in that, and she's up on the research. But it's still very dicey. It's a very dicey landscape, and it makes me nervous. So that's why I can refer you to someplace like MAPS.

I'm sure they have resources for that kind of thing. To advocate, other than the safe environment and all that stuff we've already talked about, I don't think we can. Beautiful. Next live show is next week, so do sign up at drdrew.tv. You'll get a message when we are streaming live again. You can sign up with your email, but the best option is to sign up with your phone number too because the alerts are quick and easy and no worries about spam because the phone alerts are only for letting you know when we're going live and taking calls here,

usually Sunday afternoon. Subscribe to our podcast, please. Ask Dr. Drew is now available as a podcast calls here usually Sunday afternoon subscribe to our podcast please Ask Dr. Drew is now available as a podcast make sure you subscribe to this and all our other shows

on iTunes, Spotify wherever else you listen me and Adam every day I have a Dr. Drew sort of more it's a little more intellectual topics and then we have You Live

which is more addiction and we have a daily dose which we will try to keep doing on a daily basis just a few minute Q&A thing around the the scroll that you see on Periscope and Facebook. Today I've been watching you guys, and I appreciate the comments there.

A lot of you are just saying thanks. Are they talking about how pretty I am? Some people are and how MAPS is cool. Thank you. You are. Yeah. So let me keep saying here, I try to get as many questions as possible and i'm going to do a special show in a few minutes where i just take questions so do hang on if you want to we have three people still on the line but if you're on the line stay there because we're gonna

stop the show and then we're going to start a callership may i I put my socials and everything out? Now I'm ready to read my resume. Hello, my name is Paulina Pinsky. You can find me at at M-I-Z-P-I-G-G-E-1-1-1 on Instagram or Twitter. This reminds me of the beginning of Drunk History. I'm Duncan Trussell.

Today we're going to talk about dolphins. We didn't even talk about consent at all. That's why I've been sitting here being like, when are we going to talk about it? Maybe you should come on the next show and we to talk about dolphins. Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, we didn't even talk about consent at all. That's why I've been sitting here being like, when are we going to talk about it? Well, maybe you should come on the next show and we'll talk about it. Well, no. We've got five minutes or so. We want to just – because we've also been told – I guess you didn't really get to –

We've also been told not to talk much about this. We've been instructed specifically. Well, they're writing a book. We've been instructed specifically not to talk about it. Oh. But we can talk about the importance of consent and how you and I are thinking a lot about that. Yeah, I think our task in this moment

is to think about consent in both a sexual context and an everyday context. And the ways in which we identify with ourselves dictate how we identify with other people. And so ultimately what I have been thinking a lot about is how do I consent to everything? Right. Right. We're, we're thinking, we've been working a lot together on how consent is kind of a largely overlooked topic. Oh, absolutely. And that to some extent,

the Me Too movement has pushed it forward and it's something that's needed to be talked about for a long time. Uh, and it's long overdue and it's suddenly become relevant in almost every context every context i mean now people can get sick of it and this is part of things we're also talking about is some people may just not want it right and then how do we compassionately deal with you guys too i mean i think the the ultimate uh issue is compassion yes um how do we relate to ourselves are we kind to ourselves are we respectful respectful of ourselves in addition to how we interact with other people um how you treat yourself is going to dictate how you treat other people the kinder you are to yourself the kinder you will be to others um i mean that's the sort of life philosophy that i maintain interesting

um i think that's true but But I would also argue that compassion is an active process that people have to practice. All this stuff has to be practiced, practiced, practiced for people to get comfortable with it too. Empathy. Is empathy something that can be developed or is it an innate? No. Empathy is something that comes late. It's one of the last things that we develop as human beings. It's the highest order of our development, in fact. And it's something we develop in our interpersonal exchanges. And we have to be the object of empathy in order to develop empathy, interestingly. So that's what Dr. Vade was kind of talking about.

She's an expert in that. That's what she does. She uses her whole body to empathize with other people and metabolize that and give it back to them in a form they can tolerate. Bottom line, everybody should be in therapy. Excuse me. There's a call for Paulina that Lindsay's pointing out. Okay.

All right. We'll take it before we wrap this thing up. Nicole, go ahead there. Hi. Hi, Dr. Gu and Paulina. Hello. It's been fun to watch you guys interact this way. I had a question.

I grew up with a pastor for a father and a social worker as a mother. And I was just wondering, Pauline, what you're—I was kind of laughing at you not getting bailed out. My parents said the same thing about things that we might do and just being nervous your whole life about messing up and messing up the family name and all of those things. So I was just wondering what your experience has been like with Dr. Drew. I don't want to step in the way of whatever Pauline is going to say, but we have a mechanism in place that you can do. You can go on a podcast with your father and just let it all hang out and put it all out there.

I've coped by being turned into this. That would be amazing. Yeah. So I actually – I've spent a lot of time writing and thinking about this because I think it actually shaped a lot of my character growing up without it ever being explicitly stated but I think you know having your father be a public figure in any regard whether it's your community or the globe puts a special light on you right how they what they preach is going to be exemplified in you is is the pressure that I felt it also doesn't help that my mom looked at me in the third grade on the way to ice skating practice and said when when you lose your virginity, your father's going to broadcast it on

the radio. So, you know, did I do that? No, I didn't tell you. I wasn't expecting you to. So, yeah. So I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to embody this sort of, uh, I don't want to call you puritanical in your views or that you were a teetotaler because I respect your work. And I think that you've shaped the conversation surrounding addiction in this country in a way that is insurmountable. Um, and so I feel a lot of pride for that, but as a kid, you know, I didn't drink, I didn't do drugs and I expected everyone around me to abide to that and that did not make me very popular um so yeah and so i was like this goody goody following the rules and then once i hit college i was like fuck it oh can i say that well facebook will decide mark zuckerberg try me um so there was a lot of pressure i felt, you know, and then also like people magazine would

come into our house and like take photo shoots of our families. And so we would have to portray this perfect family model that didn't necessarily feel natural, but also was part of the Dr. Drew brand. And so this is actually, um, I'm working on a memoir. And so this will be explored a little bit more slowly when I have the time to sit down and actually work on that book. But ultimately it did feel like this shadow over me my entire life. And then I moved to the East Coast and everybody was like, Dr. Drew, and I was like, yes, I will stay here. No one knows. Has there been a point where even though you felt that pressure that what I've had a problem with is reconciling things that I've learned in my life um with things that I wanted to rebel against but I I ultimately have found okay they were right about that okay this is the best way to live my life or or how do you believe that you

in a way such as your drug use or choice to use uh other substances has that fellow fallen away from uh what you were taught i think the voice of my conscious in my head when it surrounds like drug and alcohol is just my father's voice, which is a very nerve wracking voice to have in your head. Right. I mean, you have the leading expert in the country in the back of your skull. Your half of your DNA is his. I think it will be a lifelong relationship and sort of testing. I think for me, I think that my parents are more dedicated to an aesthetic and diet plan and lifestyle that I can't subscribe to because of my eating disorder history. And so that is something that will always be challenging for me. And this may be the first time I've really articulated this but it's it's very difficult when I come home and someone's on a diet and I'm not right and the implication is

that I should be on a diet I'm the fat one I'm unloved so on and I I know that that mostly is in my head and that is not necessarily reality but I think that in in the primary way I have diverged from my family is perhaps in the way I view my body and the way in which I feed my body. And so I think that that's a place which is the ongoing conversation, right? I think I have the privilege in being able to continue a conversation with my parents and have them listen. But ultimately, think the the main place that i find like uh a difference is my health in every size ideology and my body positivity um and then i i do drugs sometimes and then there's that so god bless well you might be my spirit white girl because uh we have a lot of the same experiences and the same viewpoints.

That is fantastic. I love that. Very kind. All right, Nicole. I appreciate you calling in and thanks for being a part of this. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Paulina.

Nice to see you. Likewise. Or hear you. That is awesome. I love Nicole. Okay, everybody. Our last reminder, share with your friends. Sign up at Dr. That is awesome. I love Nicole. Okay, everybody. Our last reminder. Share with your friends. Sign up at Dr. Yod TV.

You've got an email or text probably. We are going to be taking calls soon again and coming back and just doing just Q&A kinds of stuff. Somebody told you to pose or take a pose or something. No, my spirit told me to. Oh, your spirit told you to.

They liked you. They want you back. Spirit white girl hit home with a lot of people. Courageous for sharing your story. I like to believe that I am an active ally of trying to disinvest from whiteness. Today's show produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. Call screener Lindsay K. Floyd

she's the young lady you're talking to on the other side and as I said we're live again next week and we'll try to do a daily dose

again tomorrow though it's only I think right only on Periscope is that correct we're working on that honey oh we might be

able to do more that's a good one to start with if we have a day off from are we the modern Von Trapp family? I can sing.

There's a college on a hilltop. Thank you to Dave Navarro. Thank you to Dr. Geeta Vaid. Thank you to the Ketamine Training Center. Thank you to Duncan Trussell, buddy. We'll see you at the – And Dave. Did you say –

I said Dave. Look for Dave. We want to have dave back master look for duncan on his podcast duncan trussell family our podcast follow me on instagram and be sure to please so we can keep doing these things check out social cbd you get 20 off at checkout if you go to drdrew.com social cbd use the code dr drew needle destruction device.com get one of those needle destruction device if you're a diabetic or you're running an office we have needles we have a couple different devices there and they are awesome i'm so excited to be a part of that i'm excited to be a part of

this and excited to so excited you were here today this was fun it really was and uh high five and we'll see you next time ask dr drew is produced by caleb nation and susan pinsky today's call screener is lindsey k floyd thanks for to the podcast. If you have a question, go to drdrew.tv, that is D-R-D-R-E-W.tv, and sign up to receive an alert next time I am taking calls. No spam, just quick alerts when I'm streaming live. Also, you can text your question to me right now at 984-237-3739, and I'll see if I can help you out on one of our future shows. Check out our other podcast and watch the full-length HD video versions anytime at drdrew.com.

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