Ask Dr. Drew - Bryan Kohberger: Connecting The Idaho College Murders, Heroin Addiction & Dark Triad Traits with FBI Special Agent Jonathan T Gilliam – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 167

Episode Date: January 15, 2023

On November 13, 2022, four college students from the University of Idaho were stabbed to death in their home. Following weeks of investigations, police in Moscow, Idaho, charged 28-year-old Bryan Kohberger for the murders of Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. Jonathan T. Gilliam – former US Navy SEAL, FBI Special Agent, author, speaker, and host of The Experts podcast – discusses the case LIVE on Ask Dr. Drew. Follow Gilliam at twitter.com/JGilliam_SEAL The allegations are startling: that Bryan Kohberger stalked his victims at restaurant Seven Sirens Brewery; that Kohberger had a past heroin addiction and may have been intoxicated when he committed the murders; that despite his degrees in Psychology and Criminal Justice, and attention to hiding traces of his crimes, Bryan made many “stupid” mistakes like leaving behind a knife sheath and DNA; that the killer’s face was seen by a survivor as he was leaving the home. ABOUT JONATHAN T. GILLIAM Jonathan T. Gilliam grew up in the Ozarks mountains of north Arkansas and graduated from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock with a BA double major in Political Science and Psychology. He served in an undercover role as a Federal Air Marshal. From 2005-2013, Gilliam served with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) as a Special Agent in the New York Office on criminal and counterterrorism squads. Since leaving the FBI, Gilliam has served as a Security and Crisis Management consultant and director of security for a major country music tour as well as personal protection for other high-level celebrities. Gilliam’s first book “Sheep No More: The Art Of Awareness And Attack Survival” debuted at the top of Amazon’s Best Seller List. Find more at https://www.jonathantgilliam.com/ NOTE: All suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Any opinions expressed within this program are solely the author’s and may not reflect the opinions or beliefs of the producers. 「 SPONSORED BY 」 • BIRCH GOLD - Don’t let your savings lose value. You can own physical gold and silver in a tax-sheltered retirement account, and Birch Gold will help you do it. Claim your free, no obligation info kit from Birch Gold at https://birchgold.com/drew • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 The CDC states that COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and reduce your risk of severe illness. Hundreds of millions of people have received a COVID-19 vaccine, and serious adverse reactions are uncommon. Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician and Dr. Kelly Victory is a board-certified emergency specialist. Portions of this program will examine countervailing views on important medical issues. You should always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health.  「 ABOUT the SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 GEAR PROVIDED BY 」 • BLUE MICS - Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue • ELGATO - See how Elgato's lights transformed Dr. Drew's set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/ 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 For over 30 years, Dr. Drew has answered questions and offered guidance to millions through popular shows like Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Dr. Drew On Call (HLN), Teen Mom OG (MTV), and the iconic radio show Loveline. Now, Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio. Watch all of Dr. Drew's latest shows at https://drdrew.tv Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Pretty much aware now about the stabbing deaths of the four college students. We thought we would dig into that a little bit today with FBI Special Agent Jonathan Gilliam. He has a great book called out, Sheep No More. Love the title of that book. And when I've spoken to him in the past, he has pounded that into my head that you cannot be unprepared. Now, he has some very interesting ideas about this patient, about this individual, having been somewhat of a profiler himself, this Brian Koberger, he believes that he may have killed before. Jonathan grew up in the Ozarks and he graduated from University of Arkansas, served as an undercover agent for federal air marshals and also served in the FBI as a special agent in the New York City office, crime and counterterrorism squads.

So we're going to hear his thoughts on this gruesome event. I know there's a lot of sort of true crime folks following this one around. We're going to see if we can understand what happened and what this profile is of a guy that could commit such an awful thing. Let's get right to it. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD,

love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for f***'s sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment

before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents

and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. And of course, I left something off of Jonathan's bio. He's a Navy SEAL on top of everything else.

And of course, a lot of his survival training was put to good use there. The Sheep No More, The Art of Awareness and Attack Survival. Caleb, why don't you throw that up there? I'm sure you can get that wherever you buy books, Amazon and whatnot. I think after I speak to Jonathan, I may spend a little time at the end of the show, some stuff I speak to Jonathan, I may spend a little time at the end of the show, some stuff I want to clarify, and I want to take some calls sort of on the vaccine front a little bit. But for now, let's bring Jonathan Gilliam right on in.

Welcome. Good to see you again. Good to be with you, doctor. So where do we go with this case? Shall we describe just briefly to people what happened and what this guy did in relation to the tragedy? Well, I think what's interesting is that we, and you're going to like this from a psychological standpoint. By the way, I majored in political science and psychology. I have a double major, which means I don't really know a lot of anything when it comes to psychology or political science.

I had to learn all that stuff separately in the Bureau and watching people for basically 20 years. And I think what's interesting about this guy is that very quickly, as opposed to the past, somebody with this type of a personality, his behavior before and after, uh, we know that the, the, the society knows that because it's so, it's just been out there so much. And even the bits that we've gotten in the affidavit tell so much about this guy before and after he did this attack. And I think when, when, uh, you look at what he did and what he carried out that day and the way that he did it, we have evidence of him actually doing, not quite to that extent, but in Pennsylvania at a brewery where he would go. We know at least of that place where he would go and he would stalk women and ask them questions that were so odd. His behavior was so odd that they actually had warnings for all, when he would

scan in with his license, they had warnings that would come up on the computers for the bartenders to watch out for this guy because he was so odd. And when they confronted him, the manager confronted him, he denied it, of course, and then he left, never came back. So I think first and foremost, what we see with this guy is that the, what that night when he did these brutal killings, it was very fast, very fast. He got in there and I think there was some turmoil going in there, uh, with the one girl who just got in a door dash and the other girl who recognized him. And he did what any predator, uh, that's not on the highest hierarchy of predators,

he got out of there as fast as he could. When things didn't go his way, or up to the point where things didn't go his way, he was killing. But then when he was discovered, he got out of there. And so his behavior before shows us kind of his mindset. And then afterwards, I think he was having an oh crap moment where he realized he left his nice sheaf behind.

And then he was trying to change the license plates on his car. And then he got out of there with his dad. I think he was really starting to realize that he was in a really bad situation. He was going to get caught probably. So I got a bunch of questions. First, I'm going to clarify what you meant by the highest hierarchy of killer. That sounds something I'm familiar with. What is that hierarchy?

So that's something that I came up with because in the book, I talk about predators. And if you look at a lion and a lion has just killed something and you disturb that lion, it is going to look at you and either come at you or it's just going to stand its ground. But if like I live in Arizona, so if you see coyotes and they're killing something, you come up on them with a flashlight, they're probably going to scamper away. Or if you see a child who goes in and is told not to get cookies out of a cookie jar and they're in there and they get caught, they're going to deny it. They'll just, they'll lie right to you, you know? So I think there's a hierarchy of this predatory scale. This is my own scale of how these predators react. And

a good example that if there was a, in New York City, a couple of, it was about six months ago, I believe there was an FDNY lieutenant, I think she was female, coming out of a deli, and a guy knocks her down on the ground, jumps on her, and stabs her. There's people walking up, cars driving up. He looks at him just like the lion and just keeps stabbing her until he's done, and then he leaves. So you see a difference here between somebody who doesn't want to get caught and somebody who either wants to get caught or doesn't care. And so in the case with mass shooters as well, they will stand their ground and end up killing themselves because they want to be seen. They want to be seen as dominant.

This guy wants to be seen as dominant, but he wants to be seen in secret over the people that he can be dominant. And then if he gets caught, he's out of there. And in addition to the odd behavior at the bars, I heard that he, in class, was someone who generally was sort of intrusive and asked a lot of questions, except about the Idaho murders when that came up in the classroom. I saw that. And then number two, that he seemed, people reported him seeing less uptight after the murder. Is that calmer?

Is that something usual from guys like this? Yes, because he is. So here's the dilemma that he's in right now. I think he realized that there's a chance he could get caught. He knows that the girl saw him. And so he's worried about that. But at the same time, he is satiated. And once that satiation occurs, I guess it would be the same, you know, I'm trying to think of what I could use as an example, but if you wanted to, if

you wanted something, you know, I think drug addicts probably go through this a lot where they crave the drug, they know it's bad for them. And then when they actually get their fix, then there's a couple of moments, a moment where they get the high, a moment where they probably feel somewhat bad about what they did. And then after that, they reflect on that satiation. And that's what leads them to doing it again, that they were on how good that was. And I think in a lot of ways, uh, these psychopathic, narcissistic math and Machiavellian types of people, um, he's probably totally satiated and fixated on that at the same time where you

and I would be losing it because we got caught this guy. Um, that's kind of in the background of his worry. He's maneuvering because he knows that that doing something wrong will get him in trouble but it's not ethically based it's uh whether or not he can continue to do the things that he wants you mentioned drugs here and we know that he had a history with heroin which i find weird i i've never seen drug addicts, so I've never known a drug addict to engage in this kind of behavior. I'm just wondering what the relationship is between substance. Obviously, meth addicts will do crazy things and kill people, but that's in sort of an impulsive manic state.

But I don't see the cold-blooded Machiavellianism associated with drug addiction per se, or am I just not getting exposed to that? No, I don't really see that either, and I don't think that this was related to his drug addiction. I think his drug addiction was related to what happened to him when he was young. It appears that, I mean, he's obviously got parents because his dad drove all the way to Washington or flew to Washington state, got in a vehicle that he knows, unless he lives in a cave that law enforcement is looking for 15 minutes from where these murders occurred and still got in the car and drove with him back to Washington state. I mean, doting parents, if you take a person who's very, very bright and you have parents that dote on them, and then they have this other traumatic experience like he was fat and he was bullied and these types of things happen.

I think the heroin addiction probably came from him dealing with these types of things, but the heroin addiction was just a temporary fix. I think think somewhere along there, along the way, he had this deviation where killing or dominating and some type of thing was coming out as he lost weight, that got more and more profound in his life. And that's why I don't think that drugs would really solve his issue. He may get a high out of it but his desire is domination and potentially to kill and i think that goes what you see with uh a lot of these serial killers they have uh they've had substance abuse problems but that is i think we found one thing that does not uh that the heroin can't fix or can't give you enough of a high which

is taking a human life um and if that's your desire you're you're gonna eventually do that that it's i i don't you know in my world i don't deal with criminals so this is always it in the criminal criminality is a correct me if i'm wrong, but I experienced at least as a separate phenomenon from mental health issues. They, they cross over, they coexist together, but criminality per se has its own sort of logic to it, let's say, or good experience associated with it. And, uh, do, do we think other than character problems, personality disorders, dark triad, do we think there's anything else going on with this guy? You said trauma, like something happened in childhood. It makes me wonder

if some of this dominating kinds of behavior is really directed towards women and the men just get taken out incidentally. That could be, but I will say this one thing about, you know, I always tell people when they have a hard time perceiving the way that this individual thinks and kind of getting in that mindset. So we'll take your specialty. You know, you deal a lot with people with drugs where you talk to other people and they say, how could somebody do a drug to the point that it ruins their lives or makes their teeth fall out or causes huge sores on their body, but yet they're still using a needle to shoot up between their toes. I mean, a lot of people would be like, how can you do that? You know, but I think when,

you know, when you put yourself in their position, drug addicts, a lot of the times are trying to escape something, or they're just having a good time partying, and they get stuck in that lethal freefall of behavior and chemical addiction. I think with this guy, and we see this with Jeffrey Dahmer, we see this with Ted Bundy, with a lot of these people, is that it may not be that easy to pinpoint where that switch was. Whereas with a drug addict, we can go back and say, well, you know, they had a terrible relationship with their father were raped when they were a child and they got introduced this one point where they got introduced to a drug and boom, we can trace the addiction back to that. Um, the problem is the, you know, the rape, but with, with these people, um, a lot

of the times, uh, I think they just have a predatory nature. And when you get the mix of all these things just right, it's just a darker desire. It's not so much of an addiction as it is their physical desire. I like women. The guy likes to kill women. I mean, so that, that is his, that becomes his, some people it's sexual, some people it is just pure domination and it's, it kind of replaces that sexual urge. We, we, I know the, um, the green river killer, I think that's who it is. Well, this has happened with several people, but you know, where they have killed women and went back and had sexual relations with their dead and decomposing bodies because they could relive. It wasn't as much as a sex as it was the domination. And I think what we'll see with this guy is when they get into there, into the interviewing and interrogating, if he decides to confess so that he can get a plea or something like that, you're going to start to see a guy that plays games with law enforcement.

And then he starts to relive what he did through this whole fame game. And I foresee that happening quite potentially. It's frightening. Yeah, it's wild. And you also suggest that he has done this before. I would think. I don't know of any. I mean, I can think back on a few people, maybe the Mansons. There might have been one or two people in that whole Manson group that had never really killed before. And then that one night they killed several people. So these instances do happen, but typically when somebody does this big of an attack,

they have killed before, and this is an escalation. So they couldn't get any more fulfillment from just killing one person. That's why they start off with bullying or doing some type of Machiavellian type of, what's the word I'm trying to get here, where they're very sadistic in the way they manipulate people. So at first it's manipulation. And then it turns into power where they'll kill an animal or hurt an animal, and then they'll go over to where they'll manipulate people more and hurt them mentally. And so there's this escalation of what their desire tells them that they need. I mean, we see the same thing with addiction to porn, where people go from just turning on a computer and looking at certain things and it escalates.

No, you're right. And it makes me wish and wonder at the same time that we have a better neurobiological explanation for this because it has a flavor of behavioral addictions. And oftentimes what throws sort of the rocket fuel on the behavioral addictions is previous chemical addiction. So it becomes more and more difficult to get the satisfaction of the behavioral addiction. So they come in at a pretty high level and then it escalates from there. So the heroin sort of blunts, permanently blunts some of the satisfaction. It makes me wonder if that had some role in what's going on here it's very odd it's very bizarre it is so hard to get my

head around i know for you it's like me with addiction like i i get it and for the what you say i'll let you let you ask jonathan well i i think you know when it first of all when it comes to criminals as strange as it may sound um just like somebody wants to get up in the mornings, um, and have a cigarette for somebody like me, I'm a health guy. Um, I couldn't even imagine that desire at all, you know, but people do that. That's the first thing they think about. Um, some people think about porn more than they think about going out with somebody. They, they're addicted to porn. And I think with somebody like this, what's interesting is that as dangerous as it is,

it just happens so rarely that the entire psychological community doesn't really look at this. And I got to tell you, Dr. Drew, working around criminals for many, many years and watching people in all these different career fields and functioning as a trained killer, as a Navy SEAL, one thing that I've seen is that people will get themselves into a position, they'll deviate, and they'll go down a road where they will literally wake up in the mornings and think, how am I going to, you know,

go about killing this person or shaking this person down for money? You know, there's it'd be where they wake up. It's like Lex Luthor and Superman. Superman wakes up to see what he can do. Good Lex Luthor wakes up to see what he can do bad. And that actually exists in the world. And when you add to that, a psychological deviation, they go down some very dark paths where they have no conscience at all, no empathy, no concern about life at all. Do they have concerns about their own well-being or do they just not even care about that?

They do, but in a different way, whereas you have an ethical concern about how you are to other people. You're concerned about, you understand that you can get hurt or that if this occurs, you're going to go to jail and your life will be over. I think you look at Bernie Madoff. He's a perfect example. Bernie Madoff really didn't have any concerns about anything except not getting caught because it wouldn't allow him to do that.

And then when he did get caught, he went to jail and he became a superstar in jail. You know, until he died, he was the guy who did everybody's taxes and gave everybody financial advice. And they said he, he reveled in that. So these people do not look at life the same way that we do. It's much more animalistic. And I think what it basically comes down to is somehow, some way, the human part of who we are has taken a backseat to the animalistic person that we are. Yeah, you've brought up animal sort of models a couple of times, and I find it sort of chilling. And so it really, it suggests a certain part of the brain is sort of shut down, which we do know happens in psychopathic personalities. So it is sort of that confluence of psychopathy and trauma and the right kind of parents.

What do you think is going on with that dad, speaking of the right kind of parents, that he, does he think he's saving his son from being caught? Is he just an unwitting dupe of this manipulative kid or what, what do we think? Another thing we've seen, uh, or I've seen dealing with, uh, uh, parents and spouses. I mean, I know so many police officers that their, their whole lives changed or their outlook on their job changed. And, and I know almost every cop I know has had this experience where they get called. Uh, and the call is, uh, from an abusive woman. Who's just been beat up big time. And they get there, they get into a tussle with, with the husband or boyfriend. And when they cuff him, the woman just loses it.

And she actually starts calling them all kinds of names and telling them that they're worthless and they're, you know, all these different things. And I think, I forgot where I was going with that. What was the question that you asked me there? Well, the dad, the dad, the dad. But parents are a little different. They already are disposed to kind of protect the kids. You know, they're sort of easily manipulated.

Right. But I think what happens is kind of some of what you get with the abused wife is that these parents see this odd, Green River Killer, this guy, what you see are people that from a parent standpoint are church going people, are calm and have a full time job. This guy is a PhD student. So the parents would never register in their head and be very difficult for them to register in their head that their kid did something like that. Susan or Caleb, I wonder if you guys have any questions for Jonathan. Oh, this is right up Caleb's alley. I know. I mean, I was like, when I first heard in the news and I heard like these young girls and there were four people and I was like, how did he get to all of them? Without somebody calling the police or something.

In a row. I thought maybe they were drugged or something, but it was even more sinister. They were intoxicated. I think these women were intoxicated. Most of the people, I don't know about the roommate, but definitely you can see it on camera that Maddie and Kaylee, they were intoxicated um the other two zaina and ethan had been at a party all night so i think that played a huge role in this that uh

the people the victims were intoxicated and people just do not have a good grasp and it's understandable of what a knife attack is actually like it's not like the movies guy at the party too is he there no he no he wasn't he he left his house about 15 minutes away at about 2 30 240 in the morning tell us again about the knife attack so i feel like we have some information yeah so knife attacks knife attacks, um, are very lethal and there's two things that can, uh, with a knife that can cause problems where people won't fight back. One is, you know, if, if you get a severe stab wound to the lung, your lung could collapse to the neck or, or these, uh, places where, uh, your function in life, which is breathing, is disrupted,

that's a major blow to a person who's never been injured or never been in a fight before. I mean, you're going from never being in a fight to now you're trying to fight for life. Also, hitting any artery, if you don't get a tourniquet on it, you're going to bleed out within a minute at the most. So you're looking at people that woke up or woken up or didn't wake up. They just, a traumatic, uh, uh, injury to their body instantly occurred. And this knife that he used is not, uh, my pick of knives that I use for anything. Uh, it's a K old K bar knife. They don't hold an edge well, so they don't stay sharp. And the point is prone to breaking off. However, it's a big knife. And if you hit somebody full force in the chest with it, um, there's, it, there's just not a lot

of fight that you can get back with that unless you, uh, will something up from inside and, and want to fight back like an animal. Most people, when they're hit with that much of a trauma to their chest or face, um, it's, it's going to be, uh, the same as if I held you underwater, you're, you're going to struggle. But if I can put some pressure on you, you're going to succumb to whatever I'm doing. Yeah, that makes sense. Jesus. Caleb, any questions? Yeah. Who do you think was the, was there one specific person that was the target in the house that you've kind of figured out or was it all four of them? Was it just someone in general or do they have any

information on that yet? Was it one specific one of the women? Well, we know, I think they, well, they know where he kind of rolled in and started. I believe he started upstairs, but I'm not comfortable saying that, uh, all these other analysts are going out there and they're saying, Oh, he definitely targeted, you know, Kaylee, or they found the knife sheath on Maddie. So maybe she was the target, but I don't know with the, with a person like this, who he has stocked that neighborhood 12 times before this night, so he was obviously interested in that neighborhood. He was obviously interested in that house.

So I think that is something that will be determined down the road, and there's a lot of things they can do to determine that, like what's the severity of the attacks, because it's going to get less and less it's a very exhausting thing to kill this many people with a knife and uh but had he just gone in and the first person he encountered was kaylee for instance and he attacked her it wasn't necessarily a target he just saw girls in there she's going to have the most lethal wounds. So there may be something that comes out in his phone records that show that he was in the location of one or two of these people. And that is what will most likely lead them to determine who he was targeting, not the severity of the attack on the people inside the rooms.

Right. He had been around this house a couple times before right like this is for some reason a target he 12 times before yeah yeah so i just wanted to toss out there that it's actually commendable that you won't jump to these conclusions because one of the worst parts about this whole case was the fact that a lot of these internet sleuths and the, uh, like the true crime people, a lot of people jumped the gun on this and they were all making assumptions and they were accusing people who turned out to have nothing to do with it. And on top of that, a lot of people were accusing the local police department of being inept and mishandling this. And then when the documents came out, just like a few days ago,

everyone had to kind of pull back on that all of a sudden, whenever they realized, oh, the cops have been working on this the whole time. It's just the fact that they've been doing a good job by not leaking all of these documents out to the press. They've actually been doing 10 times as good of a job as people were imagining. So it's commendable for you not making guesses on that, like the others were doing. I'll tell you something. These internet sleuths, which we call them internet sleuths, they're no different than QAnon people who jump on some type of a weird groupthink. Theory.

If you go and look at the stuff that they write, they'll argue with me. I go on Twitter and I take part in the dialogue quite a bit on social media, but people will say, I don't think it's that way. And I say, well, you've never been trained to kill. So it's probably, it happened in this way, this type of attack with a knife. And I was saying this before and how he was doing it. And they just don't even care it'd be like them telling you know dr drew that uh it's a patient saying well i don't think you know what you're talking about you know you're just because you have a you know happens

all the time all day long on twitter all day long on twitter and in real life it happens and that's how patients treat their doctors but but what do you mean by how we use the knife tell me about that well like i was saying that uh on twitter i came out and said a couple things and i said that i in order to to be efficient at killing you have with a knife you have to kill with a knife and in order to uh understand uh, I don't remember exactly what it was, but that was basically the gist of it, right? So people just instantly started jumping on the bandwagon saying that you don't have to train to kill with a knife. There's been instances where wives

or somebody has killed somebody with a knife. And so trying to help them understand that systematically killing multiple people along with the stalking that he did, the surveillance that he did and getting in there, all this stuff takes training to be able to get there and effectively do this. And also psychologically and dealing with the adrenaline dump, this type of stuff takes training and they just don't want to hear that.

They think that a lot of people think that he just did this, that he was following Kaylee and the other people were in the house or that he knew one of the roommates and that led him in there. And there's no evidence of any of that stuff. But, but if you try to tell them otherwise, it doesn't matter if you were trained to kill or that you were an FBI investigator, they know more than you do. And it's the downside to this. I mean, the real downside to this is that media has taken multiple times where they've taken what internet sleuths have said and reported it as breaking news. And it turned out that it was nothing. That is the new world landscape of media which is somebody makes

something up some blogger picks it up and says it's fact and then the traditional media reports what the blogger said as though it were true it's just disgusting the lack of any sort of uh investigative investigative journalism that's so common there There was a report the other day on several morning shows where they said that he was in a cell and he told the woman next to him in another cell that he slashed those girls and he'll slash her. And then

when the jailer came in, he said he was going to slash them if they came in a cell. There's no proof that that ever happened. That came from an internet sleuth or somebody that put that on like 4chan or something. And they didn't check it out. We have a super chat. We have a, from I've Got Words, they have a question.

And what was the question? What is your opinion on the surviving roommate who didn't call police until much later? So I personally know three people who have had, not circumstances where somebody was killing, but in one instance, a friend of mine, when she was younger, thought she heard something outside of her window, and she curled up into the covers, and then she just sat there frozen. She didn't realize, but five hours had passed before she came out of that position.

Another girl, I know that somebody broke into their house, and when they were standing in the living room, she actually, for some strange reason, ran towards them and into a corner and balled up in a corner. She doesn't know why. She did it, and she just stayed there. It freaked the robber out so bad that he left so but in another case um a young girl uh a friend of a friend i didn't know this person but they were uh in their sorority they were in they're always talking about how she used to sleep with the covers pulled up over her head and they're like how do you do that and it turns out when she was

young they'd her and her family had been out she came home and a guy came out of her closet a parent home invasion and he was hiding in her closet and when she got in her bed he came out of the closet and walked out of the house and um so since that point she slept with her head under the covers and she didn't tell anybody until the next morning so and even somebody who got, um, kidnapped by Ted Bundy that survived him, uh, she got away from him and never told anybody even after, uh, it was in the news and she recognized him and she could have probably stopped other murders, but it's, uh, this is a traumatic experience. I mean, it, this is something I don't blame that girl. And I think she might have been intoxicated and she got frozen and went back in

there and was she didn't know according to the affidavit she didn't see the people getting murdered so she probably thought the same thing I'll go in there and hide and he'll go away and she probably fell asleep or passed out did he did she see the knife did he did he look like somebody was actually in the process of doing something i just i just read that she saw somebody in black with a bushy eyebrow and that was it and locked her door went back in i mean people have this weird i don't want to make waves kind of instinct like i don't want to bother anybody i want to bother the cops i don't want to accuse somebody of something you know it's it's a weird instinct we have

and it's and then you then you add this sort of bystander effect onto that, and then we just don't do much. We even saw this to a different extent in the Vegas shooting, I think is an excellent example of this. You know, a guy starts shooting people with a gun, and a gun compared to a firecracker is totally different. And, but what did people assume? They assume that it was fireworks.

And so it's similar in the way that people are not programmed to think, oh, that's, that person is in my house right now with a mask on. So when they see it, they are so traumatized that they freeze with fear. And that's why I wrote that book. Yeah, I love your book, Sheep No More. I don't know how you go train or coach people up not to freeze. I mean, freeze is an old primitive survival instinct when there's nothing else left. And unfortunately, it doesn't work very well.

It's not, you know, it's sort of preparing for strike rather than preparing for fight. Right. You know, this is exactly, because we're not prepared for it, so it doesn't take much. You can prepare yourself by forward thinking these things. It doesn't mean you're going to be paranoid or constantly looking behind your back,

but thinking to yourself, how would I react in this situation? And I think if people just did that, I teach courses where I put people through an hour, two hours of all these different scenarios that I know they're gonna fail. And we do that for about 30 minutes where, for instance, you're in a coffee shop and a person that's emotionally disturbed comes up and starts making a ruckus. What do you do? And so people will

confront him or they'll do something. And so I will teach them to think their way through it and then put them back through similar circumstances. And then they're thinking their way through the process. And I think this is, uh, this is something that really needs to be taught to people on a wide scale. Well, it's interesting. I've talked a little bit over the years, and me and my family were in a shooting at Luger Steakhouse in Brooklyn. And I was sort of shocked that I held it together as well as I did. But let me do this. Let's take a little break. Because it really is where this stuff, I think it's talking to guys like johnson well i was thinking like if this guy

had a gun he would have taken out a classroom you know yeah but he went for a bunch of drunk kids at four in the morning wouldn't satisfy i will say this before you take your break i'll say this before you take your break he's i don't think he's the type of guy who would go into a school even if you gave him a gun that he's not he doesn't want to get caught yeah yeah he it feels more like personal domination like you see the person each person and watch what he does all right and then we'll maybe take a couple calls too so let's uh get right back with jonathan gilliam after this jenny sale has so many products that Susan and I love. Their XV Moisturizer locks in moisture, making dry spots a thing of the past,

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G-E-N-U-C-E-L.com slash D-R-E-W. My guest is Philip Patrick. He is a precious metal specialist, trains at University of Redlands. He has spent years as a wealth manager at Citigroup and his current position is with Birch Gold Group. So gold has always been somewhat of a safe haven, particularly in times of great turmoil, much like our present moment, I imagine.

Gold has always traditionally been a safe haven asset. Gold specifically has always been about wealth preservation, right? Gold has always held its buying power. You can look as far back as you'd like in history. In biblical times, one ounce of gold would buy somebody 400 loaves of bread. And today it does the same thing. So it's a store of value. But I would say in times like this, as you mentioned, it's particularly important when you're dealing with things like 40 year high inflation, you know, the air that's coming out of a stock market bubble. These times in particular tend to drive gold and silver up quite significantly. If things are different, the solution needs to be different as well. So I encourage everyone to get informed

and we have a lot of good information here to help your listeners. Just a reminder, I am not a financial advisor and I do not give out financial advice nor investing advice. Birch Gold has an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau, countless five-star reviews, and thousands of satisfied customers. Check them out now. Visit birchgold.com slash drew and secure your future with gold. Do it now. And we are back with Jonathan Gilliam.

Let's bring him back in here. And so, Jonathan, we were at a steakhouse and there was a shooting somewhere. We didn't know where. We just heard that, you know, we heard shots. We heard, you know, waiters running in saying, everybody get down. There it is.

Look, there's the page six. We were having dinner in Brooklyn right during the pandemic. Or right after during, I don't know. We were downtown Brooklyn. And we couldn't get into Peter Luger's easily. We finally got in. And we had to run for cover. Susan ran into the corner.

I was first. I was on the bottom of a pile of humanity because the entire room piled into this one corner, which the staff sort of directed us to. But I was shocked. There were not bullets flying, but it was a very unclear situation because we didn't know. When somebody says there's a shooting, you don't know, is this a drive-by shooting is this a mass shooting is there somebody in the restaurant shooting people you have no idea what's going on and within a few seconds the cops happen to be 30 seconds away in an anti-cop rally interestingly down the street that they were at and they showed up god bless them they showed up in 30 seconds and And then we had rollers, that's all, we were down low, but all we could see was rollers everywhere.

And I thought, is this going to be a shootout now with the cops? I mean, what is going on? So I took a very heavy wooden table and tried to push it up into the window to protect this pile of people that was behind me. And I thought, I was sort of surprised that I thought through enough to kind of do that because I was just sort of assessing and realizing one of the things that people don't appreciate, and you tell me if this is a common thing

or this is the most common thing, you think you're going to know what's going on. And I bet more often than not, you have no idea what's happening. It's always uncertain or unclear situation. Right, because it's a fluid situation. And if you're not used to thinking through fluid situations, so there's two things in preparing yourself.

One is trying to forward think anything that can happen and mitigating that if possible. What are the vulnerabilities? That was another thing. I'm going to interrupt you. There was an exit across the room and i thought and a few people that threw up blew out through the exit and i thought should we make a run for that for all i know the guys are out there that could be where the problem is we have no idea where the the thing is so i

thought probably staying put what did you say i think we should have run uh well of course in retrospect but I ran I we were in the doorway so when should you run what you do I could hear the gunshots how do you know whether to run or not that's a great question I just wanted to get out of the doorway well first off whoever just put that that comment up there I was I was picturing you with you know how the Hulk no matter how big he gets, his pants are always still on. But that's what I was picturing. Like your shirt exposed off your pants, but somehow they're still on there. There it is.

Throwing that tape up there. So, you know, I like to look at it as not run, but escape, evade, or fight, right? So when we think of run, you're thinking of just tearing out of there and getting out of there. When we think of hide, you think of getting in a place and staying in that place. But we've seen both of those lead to death. So I think in a case like this, when you have considered thinking your way through it, if you can escape, then you, you, if you have to run, you run, but you're, you're calculating where you're going to run to. And typically that's cover or concealment. Cover means that you are actually behind something that can stop the attack and concealment means

that they may not be able to see you. So this is what you want to focus on. Can I get concealment? Can I get cover first and then concealment if not? And so you try to move your way out of the danger area or the critical area. And then if you can't, then you hide. And but you're really so that's escape. But now you're going to evade. So if you have to lock down in one area for a period of time, you should still keep in your mind that I may have to move. And so consistently looking for and thinking your way through, pull up your apps on your phone. Where can I move from here? Where am I? We all have phones that have satellite views of where we're at now. So while something's going

on, you could be looking at that if you haven't done a map study before. And then the last thing is fight. If you have to get in a fight, you better be ready for that fight before you're confronted with that fight. So having your brain that I don't want to fight, I'll walk away from it. But if I get confronted where that is the only choice, I am going to fight like there's nobody's business. Like a wrinkle in your face when you put genu cell on it right you're it's gonna it's gonna try to fight the fight that's the fight i love it but but i also remember that uh i i've been taught by you and others that you lose your fine motor coordination in these extreme circumstances so hitting you know phone buttons and stuff is is a

tall order yeah but you could take – that's exactly right. You'll be so shaken up you can't dial a phone, but if somebody confronts you, you will be able to fight with a ferocity that you didn't even know you had. But if you don't think your way through it, what takes over? You get frozen. Or like people who have tried to hide – I think there was a mall in Kenya where people tried to hide, and the robbers were just coming up and shooting them.

They weren't even in a position to hide. They were like literally just crouched up in a corner and that's not going to save them. We saw it in Florida. Yeah, that was what I did behind a curtain. It wouldn't have done me any good. If they shot the curtain, all of us would have died. That's concealment. Yeah, we got that part right. If they shot the curtain, all of us would have died. That's concealment. But I've seen people in shootings in airports where they just jump into the floor.

I mean, there's nothing there. They just jump onto the floor. And I know they got hurt from the jump alone, but now they're laying on the floor with no cover or concealment. So we have to think our way through these things. I wanted to hide behind something, but it was a curtain. And later I thought, well, if the person came around the corner with a gun,

we would have all been just laying there. Yeah, but we had tables and stuff. And I was surprised. I was thinking, thinking, thinking the whole time. I thought it'd be more towards freeze. But then again, there were not bullets flying. It was just an unclear situation. Right.

So let's take a look. Can I say one other thing was just an unclear situation. Right. So let me say one other thing about that. Go ahead. Absolutely. This is, this is the way we should all break this down, right? There's critical areas where groups of people get together. We call them soft targets. You've probably heard that term before, but critical areas where people will cluster and then, but those areas only become critical at certain times. So you need to look at those, uh, wherever you go and ask yourself, is this a critical area right now? Or is it going to be when I go there and then try to think about the vulnerabilities that could be exploited, what type of person would be drawn to that? And then what's the avenue of approach that they

would take. And if you just give that even a microsecond of thought, then you're going to be able to start thinking your way through and say, if I was going to attack, this is what I do. And if I want to get out of it or I want to defend myself, this is what I have to do. And what you'll start to see is that, for instance, in Nashville in 2018, I believe it was, at three in the morning, there's only a couple of soft targets, and one of them is Waffle House. So if you go to a Waffle House in Nashville at three in the morning, there's a good chance

if an attack is gonna happen in that city at that time, it's gonna be there. So, and it did. A naked guy with a gun walked right in, and most people didn't even notice until he had started shooting. So one guy had the wherewithal because he had thought about this stuff before, and he got up and fought the guy and got the gun away from him,

and the guy took off after several people had been shot. So you see the difference there. Even at 3 in the morning at Waffle House, an attack can happen because it is a critical area at a critical time. I remember the Mandalay Bay shooting. Cause we did a lot of, like we talked to some of the people that survived it. A friend of ours was there and this was pre pandemic. And I think, you know, we just need to educate ourselves that it's coming, you know,

this wave of violence is coming back to America, you know, since we've been out of the COVID situation and you know, this wave of violence is coming back to America, you know, since we've been out of the COVID situation and, you know, it's not, it, it's kind of, it just exists. So we're not, nobody's immune to it. Even Dr. Drew at a Peter Luger. That's true. Um, Caleb, you've been trying to ask something. You want to get something in here? Uh, no, he actually answered it. Cause I was, I was wondering ever since all of these, you know, the shootings and everything started really picking up again, every time I walk into a room, anytime I'm in a crowd, it's my first thought is, where's the closest wooden table I can knock over? Especially after what happened with you, Drew, is I think, where's the closest thick wooden table that I can knock over? At least there's some barricade. You can usually find a table. Hey, Dr. Drew. One second, Josh. Josh, you want to ask a question for Jonathan? Yeah, I just wanted to know, this has got a different feel than the death, the overwhelming deaths, you know, almost the perversion of death that happens in these mass

shootings where they just want to kill as many people as possible. This, to me, feels like stalking. And it feels like the culmination of stalk stalking as if he got into himself in a situation where he had to do something to almost make the stalking feel like it was okay or something like that where he got himself in a situation where he had to do this to get out of it he was like he had his laser beams on let's uh let's ask if that happens is that who is that it's john that jonathan gilliamy let's see let's get him to respond because he studies these people is that is there a stalking version of this just sort of fighting their way out of being caught or that doesn't fit for me quite well here's what you have to realize that the

people who do mass shootings uh tend to be people who uh have a dominant they have a dominance desire they want to dominate people perhaps there are people who are smaller or were in the case of incels that's involuntary celibate uh you're seeing that's another online thing that's growing for some strange reason and so a lot of these people their desire is to be seen as dominant right not necessarily to kill but their their desire becomes so overwhelming that they go out and will perform something like shooting up a school or a parade or doesn it doesn't have to be a shooting. They go in and do a knife attack, but kill or injure 20 people in a room. So they have a desire to be dominant and to be seen as dominant. Now, you take a guy like this, he has a very similar

desire, but it's not based on necessarily on the fact that he couldn't get a date or the fact that he is a smaller or has been bullied by his co-workers this guy has developed a a desire that can only be satiated through the hunt and he doesn't want to get caught he wants to be able to fulfill that and then continue to fulfill that. Whereas one group of people, their whole blaze of glory is the end all of their satiation. This guy to continue to do these things methodically, that's where the stalking comes in because stalking can for a while be all he needs to be satiated he's doing something deviant he's following these women so that's what that's that's what josh is picking up on the the the what there's actually what's

called the seeking system in your brain it's a guy named pan skip that that that really isolated and discovered the seeking system and it was largely looked at interestingly in porn addicts because they spend a lot of their time seeking the perfect whatever it is they're looking for online and so the seeking itself stimulant addicts do this sometimes too the procurement the seeking the paraphernalia all of that becomes as rewarding as the drug itself sometimes and so interestingly josh picked up on that and And that's interesting that, that, that does seem to be a part of this guy's cold blooded quality. I think you just nailed it. I mean that, I think that is something, a quality that we all have.

And I, and you know, yes, we have qualities of these people inside of us. You know, if, if you've ever been wronged by a group of people where you're like, man, I'd like to go in there and just tear up every single person or give them a piece of my mind that you're doing the same thing. It's just that they're doing it on a different level because they don't have the conscience that you have. They don't have the empathy or the ethics and morals that you have. They have gone beyond those things. I think what's interesting, Dr. Rue, is that the more we see these things, we can look at the world increase so will these attacks increase because the less morality and the less family unit the more likely you are to have these people yeah less less constraints on the behaviors and less shaping of the seeking character there's there's less

yeah the seeking behavior and hold on a second susan and caleb we have also seen someone uh acting that give my give somebody a piece of their mind acting it out online susan is doing that on a regular basis now she's acting it out through twitter you're getting blocking people that make me mad different what can we do to how can we see warning signs in these kinds of situations? Like you said, you know, this guy came into bars and they had him on a list. And like, we do that, but we can't, how can the system help us stop the mentally ill kill? It's not a mental illness, technically, right? Or this psychopath.

I don't know. it's not it's not a mental illness technically right it's or this psychopaths but how i mean when you see it it's like we were we're pinpointing it but we're not stopping it how can we train our kids to like be aware or understand that they're being stalked i remember when i got in the seal teams uh we had this incredible mass chief and he said let me just tell you the honest truth seals are not that great at what they do We're just that much better than what everybody else does. So that, that, you know, humbles a person because we're then striving to do better all the time. And I think, um, in, in this, uh, career of psychology and what I see in this industry is that, um that if they adopted that mentality, they would be able to go much further and look into these people.

And the same goes with law enforcement. You know, law enforcement gets, after five years, everything you were trained in the academy is pretty much gone. And you're just focused on how the neighborhood that you work in or the society that you work in has raised you to be. And once you get integrated into that, then you kind of become, it becomes redundant and you become complacent. So they don't look beyond what they typically see. And we don't typically see

this. But if, like I said a minute ago, is that this does exist in all of us to some extent, but we have morals and ethics to stop this stuff from this seeking to go further. I think if we developed a way where we, the political correctness has been the worst for this. You can't look at somebody and say, that guy's odd. odd i mean every single one of these people has been odd beyond no i mean a normal person that does some weird stuff right these people are very odd very creepy they ask weird questions they are very domineering or they're very sneaky uh and i think i it's a very difficult thing in our society because society used to police itself with these people. But we've gotten to a point now where we don't want to offend people, we don't want to go

down a road where we injure somebody because of social media and all these things. You can convict a person in the court of public opinion, or in the case of many of these teenagers, cause people to kill themselves because of social media and because of the way that society is now. So we're in a bit of a pickle when it comes to reporting this stuff because it's directly related to odd behavior. Every single one of these people, when you go do a background check on them or on what they've done and you look at their background, they were all odd to an extreme, but it wasn't an extreme to where they've done, and you look at their background, they were all odd to an extreme, but it wasn't an extreme to where they would say, this person has definitely, should be

investigated because he's killed somebody. There's no evidence of that, but there is extreme evidence of this behavior. Right, and back to your comment about there being social constraints and morality there is such a thing as a pro-social psychopath psychopaths can be highly moralistic in fact that's sort of that's how they compensate for their psychopathy by being very sort of cognitive in their understanding of what's good and what's bad what's just and what's not they get very very literal with it they don't have instincts about it so they have to be very cognitive and uh some of the you know people i know that are very pro-social have some of that stuff going on and so that's saying psychopathy isn't a meant it's certainly not a serious mental

illness it's not a mental illness per se it's a character construct and it has real liabilities associated with it that word cognitive i think is is that is pinpoint in this whole thing is that when I think this is kind of a key to this, right? Is when you see people that are making what you would think is a moral or ethical decision, and they are making it based on the fact that they don't want to get caught or because they want the power over this person. And you can see somebody who would go into their office and crucify their coworkers, but then go to a social gathering

with the same social workers and their boss, and they're just the best person in the world. You know that there's some real issues with that. And that's why many psychopaths, many, excuse me, many politicians, many CEOs, people who rise to the top, they have all the traits of a psychopath, a Machiavellian, narcissistic. And when you put those things together, along with a person that has this deviant desire, that's where they go off down this other road. These other people we're talking about, their desire is power and their desire is a job. But when a person kind of goes off to the edge where their desire becomes to dominate somebody and kill them, then the same type of behavior is going to be presented in the psychopaths that go and kill.

Well, Jonathan, I thank you for coming in today. I've always enjoyed talking with you. I love the book, Sheep No More. Is there anything you'd like to say before I let you go? I think that people need to start being aware. These young girls and Ethan that died in Idaho, people need to start being aware that these killers are out there. They need to start realizing that maybe you shouldn't go out and get wasted to the point

where you don't know what's going on in your home. But with all that to the side, you need to be prepared when something occurs that you forward thought, how am I going to react? There's solutions to a lot of these things, but it's easier for people just to put it off. I think that people can save their lives by actually doing things long before they get themselves into that situation. Should we be carrying some sort of weapon? So crazy. I always carry some kind of weapon. I mean, even if I can't, you know, if I can't, I figure out something. If I can't carry a gun in a certain location, I figure out something that I can use. But the reality is, Dr. Drew, is that I think my way through these situations long before I get there. And I am willing, and I know that I will do this. If something happens, if I can't figure out what's going on, I'm going to

monitor the situation. I'm either going to escape, evade. And if I have to fight, then my whole goal in life at that point is to eliminate that threat. So I know that I will do that. Other people need to come to that same conclusion. So even if you have a weapon, if you haven't thought your way through it, you're probably not going to use that weapon. Even cops get their guns taken away from them by bad guys and killed with their own guns because they're not willing to use it. That would be me if I had a gun. Jonathan, is there a website, jonathangilliam.com I see? And is there a social media that you want to refer to? Jonathan T. Gilliam. Yeah, jonathangilliam.com. And they can find me on all social media. If you go to that website, there's links to it all.

But usually you'll see this face and you'll know that that's me. It's so weird. We'll be in touch. Hopefully we won't have any bad things happen where we have to call you again. Hold on a second. We'll be in touch. What else is weird? It's so weird because this has nothing to do with that.

But you go search your name online and there's like five other people who are sometimes more that have your name. I didn't think there's any other Jonathan T. Gilliams, but apparently there's like several other people that are online and some of them have beards and a bald head. So it's kind of weird. After the stuff we've been discussing, if that's the weirdest thing, we're in pretty good shape. I've told this story before on this topic here, that my wife, whenever we got married, my real last name here that my wife whenever we got married my real last name is nation so when we got married my wife who was named taylor she became taylor nation which happens to be the name of taylor swift's fan club so we will never get any of her social media accounts we'll never own taylornation.com for the rest of her life so she got that when

she married me thank you that is that's an amazing name though i gotta be thank you thank you it's my real name it doesn't even matter what you write the book about it's gonna be a hit well guess what i did write books i wrote books yeah a long time ago do not name any children bieber yes no we already know it's like we there's all sorts of we named our child camden and so now there's already jokes about like Camden nation, like condemnation. And, oh, there's so many jokes you can do with nation now. I know. He's going to get that by grade school.

Poor child. Oh, I know. I know. All right, Jonathan, we'll let you go. Thanks so much for that. Well, God bless for your hard work and what you deal with. It's pretty intense. Yes.

Thank you, sir. You got it. God bless you. Be safe. All right, buddy. Thank you, sir. You got it. God bless you. Be safe. All right, buddy. Thank you, man. So before we wrap up, I don't really see any calls setting up here. I feel like we haven't done this subject matter in a long time. And, you know, usually there's a tragedy and we have to, you know, have somebody on.

But I'm just, I'm really glad we haven't had the need. I mean, this was like the first thing in a long time. Right. So I, I want to, um, that's because of the pandemic, right? We've been, I think so. It was the only good thing that came out of the pandemic. We weren't even interacting with each other. But speaking of interacting, I want to address, uh, people's disgusting behavior on Twitter. They are disgusting. That all of everybody who is attacking one another on the pro or the anti-vaccine side around the injury that the NFL players suffered on last weekend, weekend before last, is exploiting that tragedy.

Now, thank God he made it through okay, but the fact that you're using it as an opportunity to attack each other and to, the most disgusting behavior I've seen of all is reading people's minds based on what they think they said and then what somebody said about what they think they said and that becomes your basis for a discussion. That is disgusting. That is not reading that is mind reading when you have no business even contemplating what is in another person's

mind and then rather than going back for yourself and looking at the original comments going off what other people were saying somebody else said and i saw professionals doing it i saw no it's disgusting and it is really at the core of what's wrong with Twitter. We don't know what happened to, I'm blanking on his name now. Gosh darn it. DeMar Hamlin. We don't know what happened to DeMar. He went down suddenly. He had hypoxic brain injury. We do know that. That's why he was unconscious for a long period of time. When your brain is hypoxic like that, all functions shut down so you don't breathe on your own. They had to breathe for him. And with older brains, when you're down that

period of time, you often do not come back. But it's very hard to tell for the first week. You have to just kind of wait it out. And you see in his case, he started improving pretty much two or three days in. It's a great sign for anoxic encephalopathy. He got better. His breathing function appeared to have been impaired above and beyond the neurological issue. Now, that could be an aspiration from the intubation. He was intubated out on the field. That could be a shock lung from having been without blood pressure for as long as he was.

Or this whole thing could have been a pulmonary embolus. Nobody's talking about that. That's a possibility. What about that. That's a possibility. What about that? That's caused by COVID and vaccine. Who knows which? We don't know. And by the same token,

whether it's some sort of cardiac inflammation or spontaneous arrhythmia, arrhythmia with or without commotio cordis or maybe the commotio is the sole inciting influence, we don't know. We have none of that information. And just because you speculate about one thing or another does not mean you're coming down on any side. It doesn't mean a damn thing about vaccine or not vaccine.

We are still left, and this is nobody's fault other than my profession, we are still left not knowing whether something is COVID, the vaccine, or COVID plus vaccine, or vaccine plus booster. These questions need to be asked, and they're not being properly asked. Now, to say that there are not increasing deaths or sudden drop attacks amongst athletes, I think that's disingenuine. But if that data is in question, we need to address that data and figure out whether it's happening or not. Not yell at each other about whether it is or is not not not look at whether it is not not yell at each other about whether it is or is not get good data look i was what's really calling each other names what's

bothering me right now is i uh somebody put a tweet up about um multi-system uh inflammatory condition you know the the thing the kids get post-covid and uh she said she was a pediatrician who said let's put this business to rest about pediatric COVID being mild and not hurting kids. It was essentially a study about how if multiple organs are involved, the outcomes were very bad. But in that study, they implied that the multisystem inflammatory disease was common.

So I spent about an hour and a half looking through the pediatric literature trying to, because that to me struck me. I was like, oh my gosh, it's common? I guess I missed that because it doesn't seem common. Pediatricians aren't telling me that, but if it's common, well, now I understand maybe why the vaccines are being pushed on younger populations. After 90 minutes of pouring through the literature, I could not tell based on the medical literature whether it was exceedingly rare or exceedingly common and that's a problem there is something wrong with our literature right now and i can't

tell what it is how could it be there's good and by the way the studies weren't flawed they weren't they weren't poorly done i couldn't figure out i'm not a i'm not a vanaya prasad in terms of reading medical literature i can't see where the problems are as readily as he can. So I couldn't pick out why these studies were so different. But they were in reputable journals. They were peer-reviewed. And they were just as likely to say it was almost non-existent and exceedingly common. There's something wrong with our medical literature right now.

So I'm worried about that. I've relied on this literature my entire career. And this sort of shook me to my core. And so when people argue about whether there are or are not increase in athletes dropping, I don't know what to make of it. We need to do prospective studies and figure this out. Really good people need to do these studies. And we need to ask these questions. And the fact that we're not asking these questions is bizarre we're essentially saying it's not happening therefore we're not asking the questions as opposed to

hey maybe it is happening let's take a look at it and if it is happening let's figure out why this and then people treating each other like shit in social media for no good reason, for none whatsoever, as I've already expressed, and the lack of community, collegiality, just general sort of, what was the word I'm looking for, decorum. It's just pathetic. It's really pathetic. And you're showing yourself, and somebody's going to be right. There's going to be a truth. And again, both sides are doing this. And I want to see profound apologies from the side that turns going to be right. There's going to be a truth. And again, both sides are doing this.

And I want to see profound apologies from the side that turns out to be not on the side of the truth. Or, by the way, if you're not on the side of trying to discover the truth, trying to get to the truth, you should examine that as well. So I just felt the need to get that off my chest because it's very, very concerning how people are thinking and behaving. And then the medical literature itself is all over the place. And I'm reminding you that we saw, we've talked, again, I don't necessarily agree with all the people that Kelly Victory brings in here, but I get interesting insights from each of them. And one of them was that there is a tendency to not publish certain kinds of medical literature and that the editorial staff is sort of pushing things in one

direction or another. That's a problem. And if that's true, but there's evidence of something amiss, something is not right. And we have to really be patient and diligent as we try to figure this stuff out. Thank God this one particular case turned out gloriously. Frankly, he's going to be absolutely normal now, but they've, because they've told us nothing, we don't know whether he's going to be able to play football again. If this was some sort of clotting event, like a pulmonary embolus, he'll be on blood thinners for six to nine months and whether he could play football again i i'm not sure if this is a spontaneous rhythm disturbance he's on an anti-arrhythmic now or something maybe it's i don't know it's a very very way at all the factors extremely difficult call to decide whether this guy should play football again

um again and we're talking i'm just happy he's alive not just alive he's going to be completely he's going. Not just alive. He's going to be completely normal eventually. That's great. He's going to be perfectly normal. Remember we were sitting here going, well, it could turn out okay. And I remember you tweeted to somebody that said he was on the life support or whatever in the hospital. And you gave him advice and said, well, it could be okay. And I was like, oh, shit, I don't know if you should say you should say that like no i could tell the kind of direction he was going but honestly it was like they responded say well we don't want any of the medical doctors on the internet to be giving us advice right now like and i get that i understand

that i wouldn't either i'd be like because it might give false i wasn't giving advice i was just saying it's good news it's going the right direction and hopefully it'll keep going that way which usually does it's usually does twitter you know what i mean like we're we're giving advice and we're politicizing medicine on twitter that's insane that's insane to me it's in you should examine yourself if you're doing that you know the certainty if we've learned nothing about covid it's that certainty is the enemy it's it eluded us and sort of surprised us in many, many, many different ways. And appropriate humility in the face of that, I think, is the order of the day. And you said we were about ready to take off on a plane, and you made a tweet.

And you just said what you felt. And everybody projected their feelings on you about what you said. He projected that I was commenting about vaccine. I thought it was COVID that did it. That was on my brain, but I didn't want to say that either. I thought it was a post-COVID phenomenon likely. So those of you that put the anti-vax blush on it, think about reading other people's minds before you ask them,

what are you thinking? What does that mean? How do you know what somebody else is thinking? Just based on somebody saying they're disturbed by something that just happened my god what is wrong with this this country so i spent six hours on the airplane blocking all the haters well that was you yeah i was not good so um but to the point about DeMar, him getting better, compare that to Whitney Houston's daughter. If you remember about four days in, I said she's not coming out because that was a very different thing. If you remember, she was drowning in a bathtub and she had, oh yeah. I was thinking COVID, that if people are going to have these sorts of events from COVID,

we need to have some increased surveillance and some way of monitoring and predicting when that's going to happen. Or if it's COVID plus the vaccine, or if it's the vaccine. Let's ask the question, which it is. But either way, we've got to monitor people for the ability to prevent this from happening. Where people have gone instead is, no, athletes aren't dropping. They're not dropping. It's not happening.

What just happened to Marr? It happened to him. He dropped. It happened. And it's another one. Now, whether we're seeing excess or not, I didn't say. I didn't say there's excessive deaths. I just said, here's another story of another. Learn to read, everybody. Learn to read.

Literally no reference to vaccines in this tweet. Learn to read, everybody. Learn to read. Literally no reference to vaccines in this tweet. Or to increase in sudden death. Neither. And by the way, I put prayers on the end of it without being contrived. I read being sort of contrived the way so many people are.

Oh, prayers, prayers, prayers. Let me just give a signal that I'm praying, and that's that. But you should examine yourself. You read everything else into that. It's not what was on my mind at all. Now, I could be wrong. It could be the vaccine.

It could be vaccine plus COVID. But I was thinking about COVID at the time. So anyway, we learned that, what was I just thinking about? I mean, more football players would be dropping dead of heart attacks all the time if you got hit like that because they get hit like that every five seconds yeah yeah that wasn't that's we have not been to we don't know what this was heart attack susan is a clot in a coronary artery now that has happened coronary coronary artery this happened people think it's happening from the vaccine we think it's happening from covid and that maybe that's what happened but they're not telling us

that it didn't look like that it didn't have that kind of quality to it and that three step backwards fall that's like it was exactly what uh happened to to uh no it's not myocarditis heather mcdonald heather mcdonald had the thing. That's actually what happens from dysautonomia. And so how could dysautonomia lead to a cardiac event is sort of what I was thinking at one point too. And whether that's COVID or not or whatever, you know, these are, these are things that need to be answered. And I don't believe anybody can really accurately answer them just yet. I mean, he has the right to privacy and whatever it was. Let me go back to just talking about how he was doing. So Whitney Houston's daughter, day four, was totally dependent on the ventilator,

was without any reflexes, and when they lightened up the barbiturate, which they kept her on, she would start seizing. So that was somebody who was dead. As opposed to this young man who on day two they were starting to dial down day three trying to dial down the ventilator it's like okay this is going the right direction and if it's already going in the right direction probably keep going the right direction but i think what i was thinking at the time was you can't really tell there's going to be a full neurological recovery but there could be at this point so so there was

there was there will have. There will have been. You know, he's going back for more treatment. But he went home. He's off the family. Is he at home or is he in his hometown? No, they said he's going home. Because I read that he went home to, what is home for him? It's Buffalo.

Went home to Buffalo for more treatment. So it's possible he went to a hospital. I don't know. I don't know that. But I heard ESPN said that he went home. All right, let me just quickly look at the restream, see what you guys are thinking. Yeah, I know you're big John Campbell fans.

I am too. And he's been correcting some of the data that he was looking at where he thought something horrible was happening, that he saw that. Is he off of YouTube now? Well, one got knocked off. And I'm not really clear why

i'm guessing that study was an outlying study but he did present it as though it were sort of a quality study it was out of cleveland um it was i don't know if for whatever reason that study got sidelined um john campbell yeah he's he's done a good job the whole pandemic he's been very thoughtful and careful. Oh, somebody who's a lady said he went to another hospital, so I'm wrong. Okay, so he went to a hospital in Burbank, in Buffalo, rather, Burbank.

In Susan's defense, though, I actually did pull up two articles, and both articles say he went home, which could mean like a hospital close to his hometown, but I literally read that same sentence Susan did. It's going, what I zeroed in on, they said home for more care.

And that was sort of code for rehab. Well, I'm not that sophisticated. By rehab, I mean physical rehab, like going to a physical rehabilitation unit, that kind of thing, which it wouldn't be surprising if he needed some of that stuff. Well, I'm glad that they could move him. Yeah, oh my God. It's all great. It's all great

news. Don't get me wrong. Kudos to the guy that kept him alive on the field. They think John Campbell has woken up. A lot of John Campbell stuff reminds me of Asim Malhatra's system of belief. And we'll see. We'll see where this goes.

We'll see who's correct. Let's see. There's always been heart attacks and serious. Athletes in their prime. Sports can be extremely hard on the heart. The question is how much of the frequency has increased, if at all. If at all, James. Ben James, that's the question.

But no, there are not. Rarely heart attacks. And rarely commosia cordis. But there can be rhythm disturbances and there can be heart fits. Totally different thing. There can be enlargement of the heart. Completely different than heart attack

and not particularly necessarily, I mean, the kinds of sudden death that happens with those sorts of conditions, hypertrophic heart amap, they are highly screened for, particularly in the NFL. That stuff is looked for constantly. And these guys don't have that.

How many heart attacks or cardiac arrest have you seen in a football game in the last 20 years? I saw the one. You watch football all the time. I saw the one that I resuscitated because of a brain bleed. No, on TV. Like how many? Never.

I mean, I don't remember any. Never. But I tell you where there have been, there have been deaths in the NFL during training camp because of heat, dehydration, and taking sort of things like antihistamines and decongestants and stuff, not necessarily stimulants,

but things they shouldn't be taking out in that kind of condition. That's where people get into trouble with the NFL. That's where I've seen that happen. And again, that's not a heart attack. Or getting hit in the heart, like how many of those? That happens with, the thing about commotio cordis could happen, but it's typically in a pre-adolescent male, so a thin chest wall with a projectile, because a tap on the chest, with a hockey puck, baseball, or elbow like in a soccer game.

There it is. That's sort of the classic description of it right there. That's what pads are for, to cover your heart. Yes and no, but it could still happen even with a pad. But it just tends not to. You notice even in this picture, it shows a fist, an elbow an elbow a hockey puck and it shows what it is the sudden wrap of a as the cart is repolarizing you get this this interruption of the heart's uh normal electric and we've seen it happen to kids we know too we have seen it happen because we know and the

other thing that's interesting about that is when i've when we've seen that happen uh typically the kids go flaccid immediately they're're just down. And so this fact that he got up and took some steps, it's like then people had to contort themselves to explain how it could be commotio. Well, maybe he went into ventricular tachycardia, which is a bad rhythm, not particularly caused by commotio, but maybe there's some underlying thing that said VTAC, the commotio, helped trigger it. And when you have ventricular tachycardia, you can maintain your blood pressure and that can break down into ventricular fibrillation but now you're talking about something an exceedingly exceedingly rare circumstance of an exceedingly exceedingly rare

event so we're contorting ourselves to explain something and yeah we don't know yet we'll find out what here's another mcdonald when she fell down look those few steps and then back boom that's and maybe maybe her heart got restarted by the fall. Maybe she had an arrhythmia too. We don't know. So anyway. Bob Sagan never lived to tell us anything. He smacked his head to the point where-

He fell backwards too. Correct. Exact same fall. The exact same fall. A week after the vaccine. So Drew, do you think- So to- Just the last question on that topic.

Do you think that this is something that has been happening at this same frequency all this time and we just haven't noticed it? And now we're all paying attention every time an athlete falls down with heart issues, we're noticing it? Maybe. Well, maybe in the athlete department, but definitely cardiologists will tell you they're seeing more stuff. I queried in Nicole and Jemmy yesterday who talked to some of her peers, and they're not seeing, interestingly, this is important, they're not seeing anything much different in the autopsies. So the autopsies are not necessarily different,

so that's kind of interesting data. And at least in the small cohort that she queried. But Dr. Cole said he did find it. Well, but he's getting this stuff sent to him where there's kind of question marks, and maybe these are extremely rare events. Right, and she's a general pathologist. She's a tech.

What was my next point going to be about this? Oh, and so we are seeing more people with dysautonomia. We are seeing more people with arrhythmias. That's just simply a fact. That's just happening, and it's particularly young male, and we are seeing more myocarditisthmias. That's just simply a fact. That's just happening. And it's particularly young male. And we are seeing more myocarditis. But that doesn't mean we're seeing more death.

That doesn't mean we're seeing more consequence in the athletic area. And it may just be that social media, the algorithms, feed us this stuff if we look at it. So it looks like to us, like there's a lot more athletic deaths. Now, you know, Dr. Kelly, Victory, has some data that says it is. Much like the mult-system inflammatory condition, the data's all over the place. There's something wrong with our system right now in terms of what data you can really believe and what's, but what data's accurate and what isn't. It's very weird. I know I said that was my last question, but have you noticed anything from these large sports organizations? Especially if a player drops, that's a huge money issue for these giant NFL teams.

These people are insured. Have you noticed that any of these teams or sports organizations are taking any steps that might mitigate what they're saying the actual issue is? Are they doing anything that's into the heart issues? We were talking about that earlier. Yeah. So if I were in the NFL, if I were a doctor, the NFL, what I would do would be, we're not going to answer the question of what's causing it.

We got to make sure it doesn't happen to our guys. So I would start doing MRI scanning, but the problem we would get into then is that you, you detect people that look like they had myocarditis that didn't. And then they lose their livelihood. Well, and then we would need to figure out some sort of follow-up procedure. Do we do cardiac biopsies? I mean, what do we do?

Can't give them blood thinners. Put people on arrhythmia. What do you do with this situation to mitigate if you do see somebody that might have an issue? So screening for this issue, MRI is not a good screening instrument for myocardial scarring or myocarditis. So I would get together a team of cardiologists and figure out what we do and we would do something.

But it would be more than they're doing now because this is not something that they've been prepared for in the past. I'm not familiar at all with sports medicine, but do you think it could possibly be something where they may not want to know the answer to this quite yet until they have a solution to it because of what that might mean for insuring their players or anything like that? Not so much insuring their players, but sidelining people that they really don't want to sideline, you know,

and players don't want to be sidelined. Somebody brought that up the other day. It goes deep. There's a lot goes deep. It's a problem. It's a problem. But I think you've got to put safety as the first priority. And if you're doing that, then you're going to just manage everything else. You have to just deal with everything else. Well, then you might lose half your team. No, it's not going to be like that. I want to talk about tomorrow for a minute. Tomorrow, I have Dr. Li-Mei Yan. I heard her on a Twitter that. I want to talk about tomorrow for a minute. Tomorrow I have Dr. Li Mei Yan. I heard her on Twitter spaces.

I thought she had some fascinating insights. I want to hear what she has to say. I don't know how reliable what she's going to tell us is, but she has some extraordinary stories to tell from working in labs in Wuhan, China. She was there. She was taken to task by the Chinese government. And she seems to be unyielding in her criticism as a result. And so Susan's been

very concerned about this particular topic for a while now. And so I thought this would be an interesting woman to bring in here. I love Chinese whistleblowers. And either this will settle Susan down a little bit or send her to the moon. No. So one of the others is going to happen tomorrow. That'll be at three o'clock. And we'll take your calls as well. There'll be a Twitter space as well. So we appreciate you guys being here today. Today was a little bit different kind of a show. We obviously wanted to, this thing has been in the news and we had an opportunity to talk to Jonathan. We thought we would take that opportunity. And then I had some stuff I wanted to get off my chest, as you've heard. And I'm willing to review all of some of that tomorrow. We like it when you do that.

Well, it's been ruminating in my head all weekend. I'm sick of people reading my mind and saying what I said I said because you read my mind. That's disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know. I was sitting next to you. All right. So anyway, be that as it may, and Caleb has always taught me that engagement is good of any kind.

So I'll just leave it at that. So thank you, Caleb, for making me a little more Teflon to this stuff, thinking positively about things that are truly just awful. All right. We'll leave it at that. There it is also, Paul Alexander coming up this week. I really am very interested in talking to him because he was in the room when the social distancing phenomenon was invented. And I want to hear who was in the room, what everybody said. I was so shocked last time he told us about this. I was dumbfounded, but now I want to hear exactly what went on. That's with Kelly Victory on Wednesday.

And on the 18th, I didn't see who on Wednesday. And on the 18th, I didn't see who was coming up there on the 18th, but you all saw it. Is it Hamlin? We will just leave it at that. And there it comes. Stephen Hatfield. Oh, Hatfield.

Ryan Cole coming back on February 1st to give us another autopsy update. He's a... Hatfield? Yeah, he sounds really good. I can't remember. These are, again, Kelly's recommendation. I'm interested in probing these guys, seeing what's going on.

They are guests, so I'm just going to listen to what they have to say, and then I'm going to assimilate it as I often do. So I'll get something out of it, I'm sure. Go say something nice to Dr. Kelly Victory on Twitter. Is that what her Twitter handle is? All right. Do that, and we'll see you all tomorrow at three o'clock. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky.

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