Ask Dr. Drew - Charlotte Laws (from "The Most Hated Man On The Internet") on Revenge Websites & Hunter Moore In 2022 – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 112

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

In a special LIVE show, Dr. Charlotte Laws reunites with Dr. Drew to discuss the aftermath of the events in Netflix's explosive docuseries "The Most Hated Man On The Internet" and to reveal what's happened in the 10 years since her appearance on Dr. Drew's HLN TV show that helped expose Hunter Moore's crimes to the world.  After a topless photo of Charlotte Laws’ daughter was hacked and posted on a revenge porn website, Laws worked tirelessly for two years to bring the website owner (Hunter Moore) to justice. He eventually went to prison. Laws is known throughout the world as the “Erin Brockovich of revenge porn.” To date, she has helped over 500 victims of nonconsensual pornography, sextortion, and morphed porn. She has also assisted legislators in getting anti-revenge porn laws passed throughout the U.S. and hopes a federal law will be in place soon. Dr. Charlotte Laws is an author, columnist, and public speaker. She was the star of the NBC show, “The Filter” (4 years), a political pundit on BBC television (6 years), and a southern California politician (councilmember and city commissioner - 8 years). She has had over 30 different jobs, some quite unusual: lecturer at the FBI Academy in Quantico, private eye, director of a legal corporation, cab driver, actress, chip chatter, fashion designer, nurse, backup singer for an Elvis imitator, bodyguard, magazine cover girl, Realtor, stand-up comic, et al. Laws was voted “one of the 30 fiercest women in the world” by Buzzfeed and is the recipient of the Los Angeles Animal Humanitarian Award. Follow her at https://twitter.com/CharlotteLaws Read Charlotte's latest book "Undercover Debutante: The Search for my Birth Parents and a Bald Husband"  Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (http://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. SPONSORED BY • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew GEAR PROVIDED BY • BLUE MICS - After more than 30 years in broadcasting, Dr. Drew's iconic voice has reached pristine clarity through Blue Microphones. But you don't need a fancy studio to sound great with Blue's lineup: ranging from high-quality USB mics like the Yeti, to studio-grade XLR mics like Dr. Drew's Blueberry. Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue • ELGATO - Every week, Dr. Drew broadcasts live shows from his home studio under soft, clean lighting from Elgato's Key Lights. From the control room, the producers manage Dr. Drew's streams with a Stream Deck XL, and ingest HD video with a Camlink 4K. Add a professional touch to your streams or Zoom calls with Elgato. See how Elgato's lights transformed Dr. Drew's set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome everyone. Very special guest today. We are being visited by Charlotte Laws. You saw her featured prominently in the documentary on Netflix called The Most Hated Man on the Internet. And she actually made an appearance on my old HLN show 10 some odd years ago on The Most Hated Man on the Internet. And that shows up, that interview she and I did with Hunter Moore, who's the guy sort of at the center of all this. And we're going to talk about that. Her new book is Undercover Debutante. Also, she has another book, Rebel in High Heels. We're going to talk about that version of her life as well, what that was all about.

And then what she has been doing since I last interviewed her. She has helped, let me get you this data right. I think over 500 yeah over 500 victim victims of non-consensual pornography uh sextortion and morphed porn we're going to find out what that's all about and how ai and technology is making this problem even worse so we are very privileged to be welcoming charlotte to the show today and we'll get right to this before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things

about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble,

you can't stop and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. We'll be right back. a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season.

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please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So what we're talking about today is Charlotte Laws what happened to her if you guys have not seen the documentary and I don't know where you all have been if you have not a topless photo of her daughter was hacked and then posted on a revenge porn site and Charlotte then worked incessantly for, I think it was two years, to bring the, what should we say? I don't want to call him the brains behind that website, but he was sort of the man behind it. And there was a whole culture and community that went with it. He eventually went to prison, and I think he's back out now.

And now I don't think he has any remorse for what he did. But Caleb, maybe you want to speak to the documentary because you were the one that alerted me. You were quite giddy about it. Yeah, Drew, this is the crazy thing about working with you is that a lot of times I can just be watching any random show and suddenly your face will pop in. And then out of nowhere, you'll become part of this story. And I remember watching it and texting you and saying, you need to watch this documentary that just came out on Netflix here about this whole story. And I remember watching it and texting and saying, you need to watch this documentary that just came out on Netflix here about this whole story. And it was so bizarre because by, you know, by the time I got to episode two, it's, you had pretty much played a big part in the whole story, you know, as someone, it was kind of a stage where she, I guess it was one of

the first times when she exposed him to the world. So was it was very interesting to me yeah that it's certainly the exposure that way but more importantly was the first time she had the opportunity to confront him publicly why don't we why don't we just to set everything up properly show that little clip you put together of what we're talking about here yeah here it is this guy is the internet's most hated man hunter you with us yes i'm? Yes, I'm here, Dr. Drew. We're taking calls all show tonight, and I've got someone on the phone who wants to talk to you. Now, her daughter was one of the young women that ended up on Hunter's webpage. And then Charlotte Laws pops up.

Charlotte, there you are. Tell me what happened. That was the best use of that big screen I think we ever had. There were a couple of the times when I, I, I remember one of the time I'll be, this is just a funny aside. The only other time I enjoyed using that big screen so much as when we had the mob wives up there and I was trying to try to try to interview them. But Charlotte was the most effective use of the, of the big screen because then she could go on and uh have at hunter a little bit i really want to play the rest of

that would you mind playing the other piece yeah i have another clip here that we can use let's play this okay yeah i mean i'm i'm not ashamed of the parts that i actually did on the site you know it was me submitting girls um Or I am ashamed. Sorry, let me rephrase that. He's not even sure what he's ashamed of. Because the truth is he's not ashamed of any of it. That indeed seems to be the truth. Yeah, I know. Well, let's welcome Charlotte Laws to the program.

Charlotte, come on in here. Hi. There you are. Thanks for having me. Hey, welcome. Thank you Laws to the program. Charlotte, come on in here. Hi. There you are. Thanks for having me. Hey, welcome. Thank you so much for doing this. When did you find out they were going to do a documentary about all you've been up to? A couple of years ago, I guess.

We filmed it about a year ago. And, you know, I thought they did an excellent job putting it together. I mean, it's a beautifully put together documentary by the filmmakers. And I'm very proud and happy to be part of it. Is your daughter doing well? Does she feel equally as satisfied by the experience? My daughter originally didn't want to be part of it. And she had said no until about the day before they were to wrap all the filming. And then she said, Oh, okay, I'll do half a day. And the reason

she was hesitant is because she was worried that being linked to this issue would hurt her real estate business. And she thought her clients would see that she had a topless picture online and then not want to work with her. So she's kind of had mixed feelings about it, even though she knows it's a really important project and it's important to get the message across, not only to educate the public, but also to push for federal legislation on this issue. And she's doing very well. She just got married about a month ago, and she's doing very well in her real estate career

and very happy. And I'm guessing this helped. I can't see how it could hurt. I mean, it's a different time than 10 years ago. People understand what's been happening and how egregious this can be. They don't blame the individuals for screwing around as a kid with a phone with a camera on it. You know, that's sort of ubiquitous. And the fact that she was victimized so thoroughly and had the courage to stand up and talk about it, I would think that'd be a net positive for her.

Yeah, I mean, society has changed a lot since that period of time. The victim blaming was rampant back then by everyone, politicians, media, ordinary people. And now we've had the Me Too movement. So everything has really shifted. And there's a very different view out there and victims are supported. So I agree with you. It's completely changed the way society views this type of thing. In fact, you did another appearance with me on HLN when we were talking about Bill Cosby, and you were very clear then before the rest of us were so clear about what was happening, right? I did. Actually, I had a friend who had actually dated Bill Cosby, and he had drugged her.

And so I had known the whole story a long time prior. I just had never come forward with my information. And I kind of regretted that I hadn't come forward sooner. I kind of thought everything was handled way back when, and that, you know, other victims had come forward and that my testimony wasn't needed. But as time passed, I realized it was important to come forward and speak up and in order, if you really want to protect victims. And that you have done with, I guess, over 500 victims of this sort of, how do we call it? Does this category, because I think it included doxing and all kinds of things.

So does this category have a name other than just internet exploitation? Well, it was, you know, it was people that were victims of revenge porn, sextortion, which also kind of has to do with nude pictures, and then morphed porn, which is putting someone's head on a porn star's body. So it looks like you're nude online, even though it's not really you. So I've talked to over 500 victims, but that's over a 10-year period of time. So it's over a very long period. And people contact me just because I have some

expertise now on the issue. And obviously I've been through it with my own family. And I'm guessing that spiked up after the documentary. Is that something you're doing on a daily basis now? It's very time consuming because I am getting those kinds of requests, but I'm also getting just thousands of emails from very sweet emails from people. And I mean, it's just overwhelming from all over the world and it's very hard to keep up with it. I'm trying to read every single one of them and every single message, whether it's on Twitter or Instagram, it's kind of hard because it's overwhelming. Plus getting requests and trying to counsel people when I can.

Let me ask a kind of a general question that occurs to me, which is that, you know, Hunter was just the most egregious example of what people are able to do to harm other people in the digital space, particularly social media and websites, that kind of thing. But we kind of live in a time when we're all looking at social media in particular and going, well, this needs to be controlled and something needs to be done. This is the people that want to hurt other people are hurting them without any consequence. Does this phenomenon that you've taken on trickle down to other areas of, you know, bullying and hatred online? Well, I don't support bullying or hatred online. And I started something called Tribs Over Trolls, which is tributes or like compliments. And so basically the idea was to kind of get the general public to come together to support victims when someone's being bullied, you know, to put out positive comments, to compliment them, to support them. But I'm really very much a free speech advocate. And I don't feel that revenge porn is the same

thing as verbal speech. I think it's a completely different category. I think that revenge porn should be an exception to the First Amendment, just like child pornography. And so I do support people being able to say what they want online for the most part, as long as it's not in violation of a law. So I, you know, I'm not really in favor of tech companies playing God or playing police and going on and making decisions about who's going to get to speak and who isn't or who's going to be kicked off the platform. Because I think a lot of it has been political. I think a lot of it is biased.

I mean, I'm a person, for example, who is an animal advocate. Well, there's a lot of abusive animals online. There's a lot of really horrible things that they don't take off because they don't think most people are offended by that. But some people are. So when tech companies are making decisions about what's offensive and what's not, they're really making very biased decisions and saying, oh, well, people are offended by these comments, but we can show dead animals, we can show this and that, and who cares about those people? So I think to be fair and just, they shouldn't be censoring so much.

Fair enough. Susan, did you lean in because you wanted to say something? I saw you. I can always tell when you lean in. No. No, no, no. Keep going. Okay.

It was a controversial position. I realize. Yeah. She's got a serial lean in. I was like, what's going on? No. By the way, I don't think that's a controversial decision. To me, free speech is free speech.

Bring it on. But there needs to be – I worry about the 230 exemption. I worry that people can get really harmed, much in the way that your daughter was, and nobody has any consequence for it. I mean, thank God. Well, describe what actually happened, what you actually found out that allowed you to do something with this maniac. Copyright Act because that's the only law that pertained at that time. And that's really for civil cases. So with somebody like Hunter Moore, it's not really going to do much because he was not afraid of civil since he had no money. He didn't care if he got sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I have since learned that the perks who do, who put up and distribute

revenge porn are very afraid of law enforcement, not civil cases. So that's why laws are really important. And I do support revenge porn laws. I definitely support the federal law. It's really important that we put something in place, which we don't have now. And the actual, the main obstacle has been the ACLU, who believes that nude pictures are speech. And so they've been fighting us from day one. I totally do not agree with them. And now we also have the certain individuals in the progressive side of the Democratic Party who defund the police mindset, who do not want additional laws. They do not want more people to go to jail. So therefore,

they're against it now. So according to Jackie Speier, who is the congresswoman who brought forth this particular federal measure, she says there's only a 4% chance that something's going to pass, and she's retiring after this term. So who's going to take on the banner? I have no idea. Is this something that could be handled on a state-by-state basis? Well, we have laws. We actually have laws now in 49 different states. But the problem is that, A, most of them are misdemeanors. They're kind of a slap on the wrist.

And secondly, it's confusing. All the laws are different from one state to another. So, you know, if you have a victim in Georgia and a perpetrator in Utah, you don't even know which law pertains. And South Carolina doesn't even have a law yet at all. So it's very important that we have a federal law and that it have some teeth to it and that it be able to be a felony, even if it's what you call a wobbler. A wobbler means that the judge could decide whether it's a felony or a misdemeanor, which is what we were trying to get passed in California, but we were not able to succeed. I'm wondering if you have any other cases that you could share with us that you are particularly proud of or have been particularly perhaps heart-wrenching, dramatic, whatever it might be, other than your daughters? Are there things you can share? Because you've done a lot of this. Are there other stories out there that help us understand the breadth and extent of this problem? Well, one of the victims on Hunter's site was from Iran. And his followers were saying,

oh, I hope she gets stoned to death. And she was really freaked out because she has a very conservative family. And her father said they needed to take a trip back to Iran to visit relatives. And she was completely freaked out because she was afraid that she'd be killed. I mean, the authorities in Iran would imprison her, kill her for having a topless picture online. So she was desperate to get her picture off of hunter's site um there was a teacher from kansas who i i knew about i knew she was going to get posted because hunter put it on twitter should i post these teachers pictures and his followers were saying oh i hope she gets fired you know she's a slut you know go ahead and do it so he

did post those pictures and it was the name of the school a lot of her personal information I called the school the next morning and she was in her had been in her classroom I left a message for her to call me back and when she walked into her classroom that morning the principal came in and said get your things together and go home and she said why said, get your things together and go home. And she said, why? He said, get your things together and go home. So she walks out past the front desk. They give her my message to call her. She walks into the parking lot. She gets on her phone. She calls me. I'm the first person to tell her she was on that site. She was absolutely freaked out. She didn't know what to do. She ended up having to face the entire school board

because Hunter's followers were sending her nude pictures to the school board, to parents, to anybody they could to try to get her fired, to try to ruin her life. And that's what Hunter's site was about. It wasn't about pornography. It was about humiliation. It was about ruining people forever. It was about trying to drive people to suicide. Do we know any other than what we know about him? Do we, do we know anything about these other people that were part of his so-called the family?

They just sound all like horrible, horrible sociopaths. Yeah. I, you know, so he had at the time 600,000 followers on Twitter and, um, you know, so he had at the time 600,000 followers on Twitter. And, you know, some of them would say things like, I will kill for you, father. I mean, they were devoted. It was a cult. They use Charles Manson language, they called themselves the family, they were the children,

Hunter was the father. And they did really outrageous stuff. When Hunter would ask them to do things, they did it. And so that's what was scary to me because I was getting death threats. I was getting bombarded with computer viruses. I even had a stalker at my house. That's not in the documentary, but that happened. They kind of ran out of time, I guess, to cover everything.

And it's scary because these are anonymous people. You don't know who these people are. And they could be ex-cons, they could have guns, they could have anger issues. You just don't know who they are. And so that's what made it frightening. But some of them, since the documentary has come out, I've actually gotten a phone call and some emails from people who were in the family, basically apologizing and saying, I have no idea why I acted that way 10 years ago. So I know some people are apologetic and have performed.

That would be interesting to find out who that is and why, what, what they were doing. Were they just some 13 year olds that didn't understand reality and how, how, you know, you know what I mean? Sometimes adolescents don't understand the impact of their behavior. Is it that, or were these adults? i it's it's just i think it was i think it was mostly people in their 20s and i think that it would became kind of a game and i think hunter you know hunter's philosophy is is that if you tear other people down somehow it builds you up and i think these

people had bought into that philosophy and they were just following their leader and you know it became something they thought it was funny and fun to hurt other people which you know the key to happiness is helping others not hurting others so they just didn't understand what the key to happiness is i mean you don't, I don't know. It's very disturbing to me. It disturbs me from the standpoint of how many people have personality structures such that they feel it's okay to do something like that. And secondly, it's very uncomfortable to me to think about men's attitude towards women, even in today's world. I'm hoping there's less of that, that back when your daughter was hacked and all.

But it did, you know, we still do have a whole incel world. We have a lot of world of real aggression towards women. I wonder if you have any thoughts about that. Well, I completely agree with you. I mean, there's a lot of misogyny, and Hunter Moore is still a misogynist. If you listen to his recent interviews that he's done since he got out of prison, he's done a couple of these casual interviews with someone who was a friend of his. And I agree.

It's like the internet has been a place where men drag women around by their hair and say, hey, look what I've got. So it kind of was a men's only club. I think it's changed a little for the better in recent years, but certainly back then it was a men's only club. And, you know, people would say that, you know, oh, well, we want all the speech possible. But what you can also say is that when you silence female voices, you're not getting free speech. You're silencing half the population and driving them away from their computers. So, you know, that's something to

take into consideration. Would he not allow female onto the website? Oh, no, there were, of course, he had supporters. He had a lot of female supporters. And they were just as, had hatred for women just as much as the men did. I mean, it was kind of amazing that there were so many females supporting, attacking and humiliating other women. So there were plenty of them. And there were male victims on the site as well, too. Believe me, I helped. I remember a law student who had just finished law school. He was interviewing for jobs. I think he was in Mississippi. And he was absolutely terrified that his employers or people he was interviewing with were going to find his new

picture on Hunter's website because it would ruin his career before he even got started. You know, I've worked with some people in the past over the issue of sexting, which it's sort of a close relative of all this. But that very quickly bleeds into sort of trafficking in underage pornography because the people that are doing that kind of sexting sometimes are underage or don't know they're underage. So there are some very powerful injunctions against that. And does the ACLU get in the way of those laws too? You know what? I really don't know. I don't know what their stance is on sex thing. So I've kind of stayed in this other area as far as, you know, working on laws and helping victims. So I can't say what the ACLU thinks. Wiz Chris is saying, look at Girls Gone Wild, Tucker Max books.

Tucker Max has completely turned himself around and he understands he was a narcissist and understands he was doing some horrible stuff and has been in psychoanalysis for like about six years to get through that. But he he is completely turned around that's tucker max has has hunter moore done anything to get make himself better or to you know show remorse or change his behavior anything um hunter moore as far as i can tell hasn't done anything to change his views and i have checked his twitter before it was offline he's no longer on twitter and i watched a couple of interviews he did with a friend of his and he said the he was asked do you have any regrets he said the only thing i regret is that i didn't jack it up 10 times harder so i don't know if that means causing murders i don't know what that means, but he has no remorse. He has nobody to apologize to.

He blames everyone except himself. He blames his attorney. He blames the hacker. I'm sure he blames me. And he still has the mindset that if you tear others down, it builds you up. He still has a hatred towards females. So it's very sad. And it's also so stupid because, you know, our country is very forgiving.

And if he came out and he really, truly was reformed and said, I'm sorry, it'd be a much better PR move because there would be people in this country who would say, oh, he's changed his mind. Poor guy. OK, I'm going to support him now. He would actually have people who would follow him and be on his side if he were to apologize. But I guess his ego is too big. He just can't apologize.

And he just, you know, he wants to move on. He's like a dinosaur. He's caught in 2012. And he just doesn't understand that the world has changed from the way it was back then. And I'm concerned, though, because he is on one platform. And I've never been on that platform. But it's similar to a Facebook or Twitter. And I understand, I've been told that he's starting to build followers again, and that does concern me. And he's posting, I think it's consensual for him, but it does concern

me what's going on over there. I hope he's not going to engage in crime again. Let's take some calls and see what people want to ask myself and or Charlotte. This is Blake. Blake, go ahead. By the way, Susan, how are things over at Rumble? Oh, no. They're rumbling. They're rumbling.

Okay. Okay. We're good. Keep going. Love it. Blake, you've got to unmute your mic in the lower left-hand corner. Oh, okay. There you are. Oh, okay. There you are.

Oh, pillars. It's a long story, Charlotte. But go ahead, Blake. Dr. Drew, do you know who Andrew Tate is? Andrew K? Andrew Tate. No. T-A-T-E. No.

Okay. Well, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this is not going anywhere i'm amazed i'm sure if you see a picture of him he's been on your mom's house actually a long time ago but he's kind of a new hunter more i would say uh okay i mean i would i don't know i would just say do a quick google search i can't explain everything right now now, but he's got a huge, huge touch of young, impressionable guys who it's alarming how many times I hear people my age talking about,

Oh yeah, he's got good points. And he says stuff similar to like women are property and that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, you should, you should check that out. Done and done.

Thank you, Blake. Appreciate it. Yeah, there are, that is another thing. I'm glad, I'm glad Blake brought that out. Done and done. Thank you, Blake. Appreciate it. Yeah, that is another thing. I'm glad Blake brought that up. There's a lane in Twitter and on social media and on websites of these grandiose, narcissistic males that are, what would the word be? They're not just abusive towards women. They are denigrating.

And then they justify everything they do and say. Some of them couch it in, hey, honey, I'm just trying to help you. This is how the world is. Others are, this is how I see the world. That's just how it is. That's how it operates. And as you heard Blake say,

women are property and whatever. They want to be mistreated, this kind of thing. Are you aware of that world? Well, I mean, I certainly know that there are people of that mindset. I haven't seen specific threads like that. I haven't gone on to where there's a forum going where that's the conversation. But here and there, I've seen... I wouldn't call it a conversation. I would call it more of this dude spewing his stuff and just gathering followers who like to look

at his pontificate, his carrying on. Maybe, you know, I wonder if some... Go ahead, you went. No, I would say that's where I feel like the general public needs to come out and you know criticize that kind of thing and use their voice to you know you know criticize what he's doing and to support the victims so i think that's you know something we really need to push

in our society and unfortunately we really famous before people notice and start talking against them because i've heard of this guy for many many years now yeah and now all of a sudden he's huge on tiktok and everyone's talking about andrew tate but he's been doing horrible stuff for years but but i wonder i think there's a bigger problem here caleb and charlotte which is what's up with our young males? How disempowered and castrated do they have to feel to be gratified by listening to this stuff? He can go do whatever the hell he wants, but the fact that there's a growing group of young males that feel so disenfranchised or unappreciated, whatever it might be, that they are, so to speak, turned on by this. Caleb? Well, it's even more so the fact that there's so many young men

that are falling for an obvious scam. That any, especially guys, as they get older, you start to see these are young men that are being manipulated by some dude that's overseas that has lots of money that he got through,

I'm not really sure through what means, and he's portraying it as these are the steps that I used to get there, and they're falling for a scam. That's not how real life works. The same, same, same. That's, that's a piece of the scam. Yeah. It's a piece of the bigger concern, but what makes them look and feel and be motivated to look is what I'm concerned about. Charlotte, do you have any thoughts about that? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just hard to control this kind of thing on the internet. I mean,

everything is, is really still the wild, wild west. And, you know, I just don't know how you control this kind of thing. People are going to have, you know, these types of views. I'm sure 100 years ago, views were obviously worse than they are today. I'm not saying that, you know, there aren't a lot of men like that. But I think it's tough. I mean, you know, you have people and they're gonna, you know, some of them are gonna hate females and because of the anonymity of the internet,

and they can also come together in groups and fuel each other and ratchet it up. And oh, you know, now I found my buddies of like mind and we all hate women. And, you know, I don't know how you stop something like that, because there's so many benefits to the internet as well. So I don't know what you do about that kind of thing. But maybe it's not about the speech or limiting the speech of guys like this. It's about addressing our young men in more productive ways. I mean sort of what Jordan Peterson is trying to do is try to give men a narrative this, there is a certain level of lack of appreciation for the male generally. But the disengagement, I think, is the problem. They're disengaged, and that leads to bad things and leads them listening to guys like this so i worry about the audience more than i

do about the speaker in this particular case because you know he will hurt people but he's not hurting specific people with what he's doing he's inciting people to hurt people and those are the people i'm worried about so well uh let's see we got more people want let's do one more question before we take a little break here and i do want i do want to, Charlotte, if you don't mind, also hear your backstory, because you guys just sort of, you sort of brush past it on the documentary. It sounds fascinating that you found your way into whatever you wanted. You just went wherever you wanted to go, right? Isn't that sort of the story? That did happen. Yes, that is true. Love to hear about that. Let's talk to Amanda before we take the break though. Amanda,

go ahead. Hey there. Hey, Amanda. Hello. Hi there. We hear you. Hi. Hi, Dr. Drew. Hi, Charlotte. How are you? Fine. Excellent. Excellent. Okay, Dr. Drew, I actually was one of Hunter's popular supporters over the years. And I recently stopped supporting him. And Charlotte has been a tremendous help throughout the circumstances. And the platform he's on now is worse than it was before, much worse, where the women are worse than the men. And the men are like they compete. Like who's worse, the women or the men at attacking people? God.

Amanda, I'm fascinated by your story what what led to your change because i i'm i'm interested more in solving this than pointing at it you know it's like look what look what he's doing i want this to get better you're an example of someone who got better what what were you before what what led you to that moment of change? What is the changes you've made? Do you mind? No, I don't mind at all. Hunter and I, you know, we've met in real life, even though we live on opposite posts of the country. And when I knew him as a person, so we had a friendship. And then because of this platform, you know, I've been defending him for over a decade. And because of this platform and me being in this platform with him, when I would get attacked, he wouldn't defend me. So just as a friend,

you know, I would think, you know, I've defended you for 10 plus years. Why aren't you taking a step in and saying something and telling these people stop? And he didn't. And to me, that's not what a friendship is. And I saw that the fame addiction was coming in again and that God complex, but that fame addiction is very, very, very strong. And I cut off all ties completely. So was it the fact that, let's do this. I mean, I'm going to put you on hold for just a second. I'm going to bring you back. Actually, I'm going to leave your mic open. So don't, don't, don't talk your mic open so don't don't don't talk here so i don't lose you uh we're gonna take a quick one minute break and then we're gonna come

back and finish this story because i want to hear more you know it sort of it sort of sounds to me like the fact that he didn't know how to treat a friend clued you into something and i'm wondering what else you saw so we'll come right back after Sure. I think we have found the holy grail of skincare. GenuCell has absolutely changed, certainly my skincare regimen. I like that vitamin C serum, the under eye creams, skin nourishing primer. Susan loves the eyelash enhancers,

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Yes, ma'am. Listen to your mother. All right. So we are here with Charlotte Laws from The Most Hated Man on the Internet. She figured prominently into her story going after the guy that I think even doxed. He doxed and hacked and humiliated her daughter, and she would not have it. And she was the hero of that story. Amanda, I put your mic on mute.

You have to unmute it at your end. There you are. Good. All right. Thank you. So there's what doxing is. We have been doxed. Most people that have any kind of public life have had somebody do that to them.

But Amanda, what else occurred to you as you saw him mistreating someone whom you thought was a friend? Him contributing. Uh-oh. Um, him contributing, like, then, um, I'm sorry. Your phone's breaking up. I think that's on your end. Yeah. Your phone's kind of breaking up on us. Try one more time. Oh, I'm sorry.

One more time. Um, just that he was letting the, you know, humiliation and attacks keep going on and on. And was in a way kind of participating by just laughing out. And it became public that I was no longer a supporter of his on the platform that he has now. He expressed a lot of harsh words, threatened a lot of things. But the platform he's on now does not protect really anyone. Right. So it's even worse, Charlotte. I wonder if you have questions for Amanda.

Well, I actually spoke to Amanda the other day. We had, what, about a 45-minute conversation, I think. So she kind of, you know, we discussed it, and she was worried about threats, and she was worried for her safety a little bit. So, yeah. So I have actually spoken with her, what, about

two or three days ago. Okay. Well, you've got people in your corner, Amanda. I'm sorry you've been through all this. Are you okay otherwise? I'm good. It's just, you know, I was attacked from one corner before, you know, 10 years ago. And now I'm getting attacked from the other corner now. So I'm getting attacked from the corner now. So I'm good.

You know, I was asked to participate in the documentary, and Hunter's mom actually suggested that I not participate. Hmm. Yes. Very interesting. Did she suggest, and again, we don't know if what Amanda's saying is factually true or not, but did she suggest in a way that was frightening to you? She just said that Hunter got a very bad vibe that it wasn't going to go well. And Hunter would always express to me

that he had very bad anxiety. Even when I mentioned to him that he didn't have my back to defend me, he said, don't be mad at me. It gives me anxiety when you're mad at me wow wow yeah it's it's a very weird just personality turn was he doing drugs a lot because sometimes drug addicts can be fragile like that i don't know what he's doing at the moment but i mean when he was saying that to to you about being so fragile that you should think,

be angry with him. Do you remember? I don't know. That was over text. Okay. That's all good. But even when he was in prison, we communicated and it was mainly the thing.

You know what I find astounding about this? It's just, it's heartbreaking because if somebody is incarcerated for doing a crime like this, usually they will tell them, you can't go back on social media and do this again. Well, they tried to take him off a few, Charlotte, explain that, what they attempted to do.

Well, he was limited for a while after he got out of prison and he actually has been banned from facebook and then but he didn't have a ban from twitter eventually he was able to be on twitter and now he's been kicked off i think because so many people complained about it that twitter has now removed him i don't know if it's permanent or temporary so um you know the judge had only said you have to be off for a certain period of time. They can't say for the rest of your life. So that's why he's back on social media or some avenues of it anyway. But I just feel like there should be like a legal

fight for him not being able to continue illegal or, you know, find a way to catch him doing it again so that he goes back to jail because he's not safe on the streets he's still attacking people it's clearly not like he's not a good guy you know he hasn't changed even if you he was your friend you know he he's gonna i don't know something's seriously wrong with this guy yeah i think that's true and uh it's like when they let like wife beaters go back on the street and they go and kill their wives you know what i mean they they let them out and then the first thing they do is they go out and kill somebody and it's it's the same type of thing well

the other thing it's down it's a very much a story about this new medium that you know really was brand new 12 years ago people didn't understand what was going on. The internet is a new phenomenon. Social media is a very new phenomenon. And we as humans have not really adapted to it yet. We don't fully, I mean, the thing I'm seeing and what's being described in this particular case is mobs, how mobs behave. I mean, human societies have been afraid of mobs

much of civilized history. They've done, you know why when you go to, you know, some of the older sections of Paris, why the streets are so windy and there's no sort of public squares? Because they didn't want a mob to develop. They literally designed the city so people couldn't gather

because if you get enough people together, they start behaving strangely. And now we have these massive gatherings online and no constraints. And not only, at least in the public square, you had the constraints of social decency. And so whatever order was present in the community at large, here there's zero, there's zero anything, and people can get away with anything,

and the mobs develop and they harm. They're always violent. They always come together to focus on the one, and that one is they have to hurt that person in order to get satisfaction. That's how mobs behave. It's always been that way. We're just watching it now in a wholly different context. And pictures and things like revenge porn, these things have never existed before.

And we have to adjust to the phenomenology of this, or just the phenomenon of it, really. And it's going to require laws, and it's going to require something that keeps us from acting out in ways that are so, so destructive. If you don't get anywhere with, who was it that was trying to create the law for you in the federal government? Jackie Spears? If you don't get anywhere with Jackie, yeah. If you don't get anywhere with her, is there another plan afoot? Well, I mean, it's been brought forth, I believe, three separate times over the past 10 years. And every time the bill has failed, I know they told me, they last told me they were trying to adjust it in order to make it appeal to the ACLU and the individuals who are the defund the police people.

But I don't think that's going to end up panning out. So there are people like Cory Booker, who is very much in favor of the law. And even Adam Schiff now supports it. Because when I met with him a decade ago in his office, he said there's no way he would ever support the federal law. And now, happily, he has signed on to it. And it's definitely a bipartisan issue. I mean, you have both parties supporting this. I mean, this could be the issue that could bring our country together. Wouldn't that be cool?

But I would really love to see some- Wouldn't it be nice? Yeah, we sure need it. That sure would be nice. People are too gratified by being aggressive and separated. It's just sad. You hear the desperation in Amanda's voice, and it's like, I don't understand. You know, we're friends. He's not defending me. I defended. It's like this sociopathic killer, you know, on some psychological level. He's just, he's like a psychological killer. One percent.

What is it? One or two percent. What's the incidence of psychopathy in the world is one percent or something. It's a small percentage, but it represents a couple million people but like like she said it's like charles manson it's like a it's like a cult he's he's building a group of people around him to attack women and men now but well now women do it's such a different time because you can just like go on twitter and see porn all over the place. Women attacking women is particularly concerning, right?

It's almost like entertainment to be so mean to each other. It's more about being sadistic now than it is about finding out. It's not people looking for content. Rather than being in the Coliseum, we are sitting in these

social media spaces. Remember on the show they were showing Butthole Girl? Yes. Or as she would say, Butthole. Yes, as she would say, yes. Yeah, and how he dragged her in and he basically made it so that she couldn't have her children anymore. And it just ruined her life. And she was just sucked into that just to get famous.

And the fame is what's the bad part. And she started with get famous. After that, she was just sort of pressured. She was just, you know, it was really, young people can be pressured to do awful things. What's that? I don't get it. I don't get how he's allowed to come back and do it

after going to jail for doing it. If you want to know how, this is all the zone. It's like going, oh yeah, you can go back and beat your wife again. But all this, a lot of this is in the zone of persuasion and hypnosis and those sorts of phenomenon. Did you ever see, what's that guy Brown? What's his first name? Something Brown. He did that documentary on Netflix called The Push, I think it was called,

where people literally were persuaded through social pressure to kill somebody. And they did it. And they did it. That's how prone we are to suggestion and to social sorts of pressure. It's like a Milgram experiment. Milgram is sort of a a very you know controlled you know version of that i'm gonna look this guy's name up can you help me uh caleb hypnosis brown uh shoot darren brown darren brown and i think it was called the push help again caleb backed me up on that he had a he actually had a show on Broadway where he did stuff, got people to do things they didn't think they would do.

Push to the Edge? Caleb, it's just called The Push, I think. Let's see. Anyways, I remember watching it. It was astonishing. It's got to be around, maybe on uh uh amazon or something but it's worth it is on netflix it's still there huh yeah it's called the push yeah go go check it out guys if you want to see how how vulnerable our brains can be it's you know

if you wonder what's happening online and how somebody, seemingly a nice young lady like Amanda, is persuaded to be a part of this whole thing, me, it makes perfect sense, given how I know the human brain works. But let's get off this for a second. Yeah, go ahead. I have a question thing that I call extreme empathy, where it's like, I'll see a school shooting and I will feel the worst for the victims. But then at the same time, my heart will also hurt for the kid who committed the crime because of how horrible must someone's life be for them to be so horrible to other people. It's just, it's unnatural and it confuses me as a person who doesn't even think that way. So do we know anything about Hunter Moore's childhood and upbringing that could

possibly explain why he can hurt so many people and then also still be so unremorseful even after being punished? Is there any explanation? I'm going to give Charlotte a chance to answer that, but before she does, I know we all have a sort of a psychological bent in our understanding of humans but psych psychopaths have a genetic biological problem weren't you with us when we talked to dr fallon that's the yeah they they say a it's confusing because it doesn't seem human it doesn't seem right but they literally if it's bad psychopathy, they literally lack the ability to have or understand or appreciate feelings of any type or very few. And so the fact that you have feelings, it's almost like you're the same. If you were playing a World of Warcraft.

No, the other one. Call of Duty. You're playing Call of duty and you're shooting people that's the way he feels about you like he you're just a you're just a npc you're you're just you don't really exist you're an avatar right and and as i as i know i i'm like you caleb i i can't get my head around i can't i can't even do it. But I just know it exists. It does exist. And there's no explanation for it.

I know. The explanation is that part of the temporal lobe where we – Remember in the old days, somebody would be hung in the town square, and everybody rushes out to sit and watch that. I've never understood why people would want to do something like that. I mean, it's just – it baffles me. That's mob. That's mob action.

Yeah. Right. That's how people manage aggression by uniting with a bunch of other people who are feeling aggressive and focus it on somebody else. That's what the Aztecs did every morning when they killed somebody. And that's what the French did with the guillotines. And that's different than the psychopathy thing. That's mob.

That's mob. And in mobs, people behave like psychopaths. That's what happens. People start to behave like they don't have empathy anymore. We don't really know. I mean, you can read Le Bon and all these guys. We're going to interview a guy that is an expert in all this, Caleb. He's a Belgian psychologist.

I've asked for him to come in here. And he will have some answers for us about how this happens. But it does happen in mobs it's i mean but my the part that i'm most curious about especially because of so many of these people that go out and are violent these days are now these kids under 18 that are going up and shooting their own schools it's a lot most of those cases that i've read about you look into the history and it's it's it's obvious it's obvious it's that they came from something that was horrible that made them horrible some people may be born that way but is there any sign like especially looking at the girl that spoke earlier the woman that spoke earlier about how hunter's

mom encouraged her not to be part of this documentary makes sets off a red flag in my head of well was he raised this way is there a family history of this type of behavior that he, he seems, he literally sees that nothing wrong with what he's done. He has no money in this anymore. He's not making money off of it. He's not getting famous. We'll let Charlotte answer.

Right. Charlotte. Yeah. I'm very curious. He's gathering a mob. He likes to be the head of a mob. But go ahead, Charlotte.

Right. I don't really know too much about the parents, except there was a Guardian newspaper reporter who interviewed neighbors who said the parents are really nice. I don't know what happened with that kid. So that's kind of the extent of what I know about the parents. I know that Hunter, I have been told that he was a bully in school. I've been told that he worked, I believe he worked behind the scenes in the porn industry, and then he brought some kind of a lawsuit against them for sexual harassment and then he went to Australia and used all the money up drinking and doing drugs etc um but I don't know that much about him I mean you know I think he may be a drop

out I'm not sure if he graduated from um high school or not maybe he did but um I don't believe he went to college so you know there's there's not much background on him. I mean, he doesn't seem to have had very much going on in his childhood, as far as I can tell. And, you know, I don't know too much about his parents. They certainly were not pleased with me at the courthouse. They weren't giving me smiles. I mean, they seem like they were pretty upset with me for, you know, doing this with regards to to hunter but i just don't know enough about them so they haven't seemed to to also see that he's done something wrong either almost it almost seems like they're more worried about that though that happens a lot that can be

real true denial people parents are often in denial about their kids behaviors that's a real thing um but uh leopold you're sitting there with your mic muted why don't we uh bring you in here what's going on leopold hey man hey dr jude how you doing how are you good and oh doing great and definitely i saw the most hated man on the internet and charlotte you were great on there it's wonderful a couple of thoughts um you know men have um you know followed other you know sociopaths all throughout history. I mean, take a look at some history, you know, like Adolf Hitler and other, you know, you know, you know, dictators and such. And there would be a following. But, you know, I'm thinking more about the fact that, you know, the generation, you know, I'm 60 years old. So, you know, my exposure to pornography was stealing my father's Playboys, you know, out of his closet, right?

Today, you know, this pornography which my understanding includes you know a lot of pornography that wasn't even invented when i was you know at that age a million years ago a lot of it aggressive uh you know aggression toward women uh has been featured uh that's that seems to be a reoccurring theme. And then also the objectification of women in general. I mean, our whole society objectifies underage girls and other things. That's a problem, of course. But I'm talking about the fact that they make synthetic dolls, sex dolls now. So in other words, we have this culture that not only

objectifies women, but has access to, you know, ridiculous pornography that's aggressive toward women. And maybe into that, some sociopathic leader who has a bunch of minions following, you know, his, you know, his aggressive behavior. You could see how it could, you know, this person could be created, you know. And I just wanted to know what your thoughts were, Charlotte and Dr. Drew. Yeah, it is part of the deal. I want to hear what Charlotte has to say. Thanks, Leopold. Well, I mean, Hunter Moore basically recruits these people to be his army for him.

And they're his minions. They're his servants. They do whatever he wants. He loves that. I mean, it's feeding his ego. It's making me They do whatever he wants. He loves that. I mean, it's feeding his ego. It's making me feel like he's the king of the world. And it makes him worse and worse and worse. The more people that support him, you know, the more his, you know, ego gets larger and larger and larger.

And so, you know, it's definitely a problem. I don't know what you do about something like this, as I said. So maybe you have an idea, Dr. Drew. Yeah, it's really, it's just frightening. But there is something. The outcome of porn is not in a positive light here. Right. I think that's right.

And I think that's what Leopold was sort of suggesting, which is that the other part of the internet that we don't know the full extent of the consequence yet is pornography uh i you know who knows what this is doing to 11 year olds because they're being exposed to it we have no idea it's never happened before nothing like that has ever happened before and we have and what is it doing to these angry men what is that contributing to it and by the way the angry women that seem to be acting on our women, are they affected by this? Somebody's got to really dig into this.

And I don't know what we do. Again, like you, Charlotte, I'm a free speech advocate and people should be able to put whatever they want up as long as it doesn't hurt other people. But there should be a way. We have to address what it does to people somehow, whether it's limiting exposure, you know, our kids, whatever. We have to figure out some way to limit its consequence. Charlie? I can tell you that the porn industry does not like revenge porn. It hurts their business. And there also is an indexing law related to the porn industry where you have to have a driver's license listed for every single porn actor or actress who is in any sort of picture or video. So, you know, there's like,

there's a control. And the reason they do that is because they don't want underage people, you know, being portrayed nude. So they have this restraint and yet revenge porn, you know, it's kind of like free for all to what you want to do right so um yeah so but i just support people being able to look at pornography i do i as long as it's consensual i have no problem with that and um right you know yeah i don't think we want to be that we don't want to be saying this can't happen we want to we want to understand how it affects developing brains and limit the effect somehow figure out how to do that well charlotte i i want to i want to understand how it affects developing brains and limit the effect somehow. Figure out how to do that.

Well, Charlotte, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about these jobs and things you've done throughout 30 different jobs, including a lecturer at the FBI, director of a legal corporation, cab driver, actress, let's see, fashion designer, private duty nurse, backup singer for Elvis.

What the hell? What were you doing? How did all this happen to one person? I don't know. I think I just get bored and I'm so interested to try different things and see, you know, what other people's lives are like. So I just kind of have tried a lot of different professions. And, you know, I mean, the cab driver, I was a bandit cab driver.

I wasn't even a legal one. I didn't know it was illegal because this was back in 1980. And it was in Las Vegas when I lived there. And people would be lined up after the shows and have to wait a very long time for a cab. And I thought, hey, I'll just pile them in my car and take them to their casinos. And I made money just driving people to the various hotels on the strip after a show. That's what I did. That's one way I made money. I think after you finish with Hunter Moore and this experience, you should sue Uber for stealing your idea.

I think you were the first Uber driver and they just took it from you. Now, there was no apps then. You just had the idea. That's right. That's right. So, yeah. That's really funny. Well, I think you have to tell us how you ended up a backup singer for

elvis at least i went to i just went to an audition again this was in vegas i did a lot of crazy things in vegas it was an amazing two years of my life and they were holding auditions and i'm not even a good singer but i showed up and one of the girls worked at the chicken ranch who had shown up and the guy who was elvis you know playing elvis who had a had a moral issue with her being at the chicken ranch so he hired me to be a backup singer even though she was a much better singer than me and so i i did this gig and that was my citizen backup singer even though i'm not a good singer trust me i see so this was not a real elvis backup singer i wasn't I'm not a good singer. Trust me. I see. So this was not a real

Elvis backup singer. It wasn't Elvis Presley. It wasn't Elvis. Well, it wasn't the real Elvis. It was not really Elvis. It was an impersonator. I was wondering if you somehow found your way into that Hilton International famous

fat Elvis experience where he was at the very end of his line. I never met Elvis. I was going to he was the very end of his line. No, I actually never met Elvis. I was going to meet him the next gig before he died. So it was like the one, you know, if he hadn't died, it was, I was going to go and meet him. But I had never, I never met him. And then I think on, I guess it's episode one towards the end, they, they, they hinted you having been someone who got into various affairs just by essentially pointing your attention in that direction and you could enter.

What was that? Yeah, I was a party crasher. I mean, I still go to things from time to time. You know, it's a great way to get face time with politicians. If you want to lobby for legislation, you want to get people who have money signed on to a cause. There are a lot of good reasons to go to these events because, you know, currently we have a system, for example, where you have to spend 40, 50 grand to go to a fundraiser in order to get FaceTime with a politician. Well, if you party crash, you get that same FaceTime, you know, so it kind of evens the playing field a little bit but I started back when I was a kid so when I was about 16 17 years old and I had a very bad childhood a very tragic childhood and I had an abusive dad my mom committed

suicide my brother was killed in a car accident two years later and I was adopted and I was the black sheep of the family and of the community and I realized that entertainment people were much more open-minded. I mean, it was a very racist community that I grew up in. And so I was attacked for that all the time. I supported the civil rights movement and that was just unacceptable to my family and to many of my friends. And so I just wanted a new family and the entertainment industry was that family and i started hanging out with people and getting to know people and i really appreciated that they were open-minded and i also

knew the value of causes and of what i call other centrism which is helping others which makes you a happier person and so after civil rights i got involved with um helping with gay rights and animal rights is a very big thing that's near to my heart and now women's rights with revenge porn. So I've kind of had this life as an activist even though I always hated the term activist because I saw it as a person who hadn't bathed for two months, who was running through the street with tattered clothes and a sign screaming at the top of their lungs and I'd say, no, no, I'm not an activist. I'm an advocate. But I finally have embraced my inner activist. And I realized that it's very good to be active to try to make change in society. And so that's what I do now. But party crashing has been a tool.

You know, I've gotten acting roles. I've sold beaded clothes. I've, you know, as I said, I've pushed for legislation. I've gotten people signed on to various causes. It's been an amazing thing. And it was fun when I was 16, 17, 18. My friends were going out to the bar or going bowling. And I was like, no, I'm going to hang out with the president or Frank Sinatra or Michael Jackson. I mean, it was exciting as a 17-year-old kid to be able to do that kind of thing. So that's kind of my history doing it.

It's sort of more than exciting. It's sort of overwhelming, even for an adult to be in that group, you know, in that level of intensity. So, Caleb, let me bring you back in here because a few minutes ago, you were talking about traumatic children. I want to shine a little,

you know, children that were traumatized, shine a little light on. It doesn't, children that were traumatized, shine a little light on it. It doesn't, a lot of traumatized kids get through, they get through and Charlotte obviously is, is one of these people. And I, and I'm wondering if Charlotte, you can speak to, was there, you used all the, you've used all the strategies that I'm used to people using to manage trauma, which is service and giving back. And I And I'm guessing, do you have a spiritual life also of some kind? Yeah. I mean, I consider myself a Jewish Jane.

Jainism is an Indian religion. And Ahimsa, which is non-injury to all living beings, is the main principle of Jainism, which is why I embrace that very dearly. So I'd say I'm somewhat spiritual. Did you have kind of a, yeah, did you have sort of a moment where you could have gone one way or the other and you sort of, I don't want to say decided, but managed to go a certain direction that worked for you? I had a moment on a hill with my dog.

I used to read a lot of philosophy, and I even read the Bible. I read lots of philosophical works. And I had this spiritual moment, probably my dog, I used to read a lot of philosophy and I even read the Bible. I read lots of philosophical works and I had this spiritual moment, probably my imagination, but I had this moment where I felt like I had a mission in life and that I needed to work towards eradicating prejudice. That was like the mission. And, you know, as I said, I grew up in this racist community. So that was in my face as a child. I was called like an end lover practically every day by people I knew. And I later read an article that said that one third of people in the world believe they have a mission in life. So I was one of these people, obviously. And gay rights, I mean, that's any kind of prejudice against gays, against animals,

that's called speciesism, or against women, obviously sexism. And, you know, so that became something that's near to my heart and supporting victims. And maybe psychologically, I felt like a victim myself as a child. So maybe that's why I had that empathy. And I could, you know, really feel how they felt. I mean, which to this day, I mean, I feel I can walk down the street and see a worm on the sidewalk and go, Oh, my God, you know, and I have to rescue that worm. And to me, every little every living being has value as interests, and I feel that empathy. So yeah, and I don't know, maybe that does come from my childhood. But I think genetics plays a really big part over environment. And as someone who found my birth parents,

I tracked them down. I can tell you that I'm a heck of a lot like my birth family, and I was nothing like my adoptive family. So I do believe, as Steven Pinker would say, that genetics is much stronger than environment. Yeah, and that is probably true. Generally speaking, in human behavior, whatever you're looking at, about 60%, on average, generally, about 60% is accounted for on the basis of genetics alone. And that's a big chunk, because the environment can only screw that up, really, you know what I mean, one way or the other. Or you can make it better, but it's hard to make it better if that genetic burden is problematic. But the resiliency, the fortitude,

the resiliency refactor is really kind of what you're talking about. But what's that, Caleb? Well, no, that's why it gets so confusing whenever I have this extreme empathy, because I see people like Charlotte who also went through all of these things and yet came out completely on the opposite end, which now she wants to defend people who are put down by

others, as opposed to going the other direction that some people seem to go from similar situations where they become sadistic and want to hurt others. So it, it really comes down to, it is that person's fault, which way they decide to go. It can be influenced by things that are around them and by genetics, it yeah you kind of similar situations it's so many variables involved i yeah all i can tell you yeah yeah i don't think it's the people can't right yeah people can choose to get better they can choose to get better i i don't i don't fault so much people for how they are. I fault them for not wanting to get better.

And that, to me, is what bothers me. And Charlotte, I'm going to just toss out, just because we're talking, that the liability that you will carry forward is over-rescuing. Rescuing can be a good thing, but not everyone wants rescue or or needs rescue sometimes they need to struggle with their stuff on their own uh and that's the other liability of having been victimized or abused you you can't like like you're saying it's very hard then to tolerate seeing another being in pain but that is not because so much you know we do empathize and caleb was talking about that but it also mobilizes our own pain, and that tends to be what we think needs, you know, we kind of confuse it with the other being's pain a little bit,

and so we want to stop it because we know how bad it feels. But sometimes that other being either, A, isn't interested, or B, kind of needs to struggle with it on their own without our rescue because they become dependent on our rescuing. This is something I had to learn the hard way as a physician. It's not an easy task to be with people that are suffering. That's sometimes all they need. So I know, Charlotte, I know you probably have to go in a minute, but I was really shocked whenever I went back to all of these old videos from about 10 years ago that were talking about all of this stuff as it was happening and reading through pages of 10 to 12 year old comments from people that were supporting Hunter Moore and everything that he did. And most of those people

I'm thinking have probably grown up since then. And they probably regret those comments and they've lost the passwords and they can't go back and delete them now. But it looks, it just looks bad on all of these people. But to me, it seems to show a real dramatic shift in the energy of what the internet community supports and what people think is acceptable. Trolling, I guess, is what you would say. Do you think it's better now? That's what I was wanting to ask her, is do you think that it's better now? Do you think that as a whole, that humanity and the people on the internet seem to be getting better with how they treat others? Or is it just there are a lot more I definitely do. I mean, at least based on my, you know, I haven't done a study, but based on my perception and yeah, and there are more voices out there and there's,

you know, more opinions. And if somebody says something and starts attacking somebody, you know, people do come to that person's defense much of the time now. And I think we need to encourage that more because I think that's the way to combat hurtful speech is with supportive speech. I think we really need to get people signed on to that idea. Right, drown out the dark with the light. I completely agree. Right.

Well, much the way if somebody, I always think of just the public square. If somebody came into a public square and you became a bystander rather than an advocate, that's not good. You need to think about the public square. Somebody's being abusive. You need to step up and say something. And the more people that do that, the more pushback there's going to be and the more civility will prevail. Charlie, I've kept you a lot longer than I was supposed to. Go ahead, Caleb. I have so many questions. Honestly than I was supposed to go ahead, Caleb. Oh, no, I was the last,

I have so many questions. I honestly, I just came across as this legendary internet hero. I was just so, I was just so thrilled by the end of it. I'm just like, you get him. I was,

I was just thinking to follow on from what I had asked previously is, is there anything else that you might see that's happening now on the internet that you also think is going to go out of favor in 10 years from now that everyone's accepting at the moment, but they're going to really look back on in 10 years and think this, this was just a bad idea. Well, I mean, I think that the kind of the new problem that's really coming to the fore is the whole deep fake idea. You know, I talked about the morph porn earlier, but just deep fakes in general with changing somebody's words to make it seem like they'd said something else or, you know, I mean, you can do a lot of things with deep fakes. It's extremely inexpensive to use that technology.

And, you know, law enforcement's way behind the technology, you know, as far as, you know, ways to combat it. And so we need the kind of algorithms and we need the kind of tools that we can use to um do something so people know what's real and what's fake i think that's going to be the big challenge that's coming up it's already becoming a big challenge and um and i think that even if you have something where it's say a picture or a video and you have some sort of tools that can say you know there's a 90 chance this is true or there's a 10 chance this is true where people could at least get a sense you know the spectrum i think that would be very helpful some tool like that i think people are somewhat more aware of this there was a desantis video

going around where you're being interviewed by Handy that was complete deep fake and it really was I fell for completely I'm like very interesting I was very interested in it and then I found out oh somebody just put that spliced that together it was completely deep fake and so there you go it's top of mind right now Charlotte congratulations on the documentary thank you for doing all you've done congratulations to your daughter's new marriage and her willingness to step up and be a part of the, well, part of the solution.

And there, of course, is her new book, Undercover Debutant. Go get it now. Support Charlotte. Her Twitter handle is at Charlotte with T-T-E, Charlotte Laws, L-A-W-S. And just great to see you again. And I so appreciate you having come on with us 12 years ago on HLN.

And I appreciate you being here now. Well, thanks for having me. All right, Charlotte. And if you need anything from us, we are available. Tomorrow, Dr. Kelly Victory joins me again. Peter McCullough is going to be in here. Now, a lot of people have a lot of feelings about Dr. McCullough. I was reading some of

his stuff i disagree with some of it i agree with some of it i will see where he is today i particularly want to talk about mass formation psychosis i think it's an interesting topic that people need to really get their head around because a lot of the problems we've had uh from the pandemic were really related to that we can talk about the circumstances in which that happens but also dr mccullough has some very strong opinions. I was particularly looking at his feelings about hydroxychloroquine and it's like,

it really didn't work. There's a time to go, eh, come on. We have things at work. When there was nothing, okay, I'm all for, we have nothing, the doctor's improvising,

but we have stuff now. And I'm just saying. And maybe you don't want to use anything. I get that because Omicron is so much milder. I understand, but we have real treatments. And believe me, I've seen the difference between the real treatments, steroids, Paxlovid, monoclonal antibodies. I mean, these things change that dramatically and instantly change the course of these illnesses. The early treatment stuff, we had nothing else, was sort of, might have done a little something maybe. I mean, I certainly defended doctors' rights to do that,

but we'll talk about that in greater detail tomorrow. I think both Dr. Victory and Dr. McCullough are advocates of it. I'm not so much, so we'll see where that goes. We'll talk a little vaccine. We'll talk a little mass formation psychosis. Let me just check in on with susan anything um else you over on rumble are talking about uh first law of thermodynamics the first law is conservation of energy the second law is uh entropy entropy we have a physicist in

the group good they can give her give her the i've just decided that this person can also be our moderator if they ever have a blocking button on Rumble, which they won't, but that's okay. Which they won't? Yeah, no, they probably won't. You know me. I'm just having fun. Whatever. Whatevs.

You're doing a great job, though. That was just a really good show. That was very interesting. She was great. It's so lovely to have her. It is frustrating, though, that it's not you know, there's no way to solve all the problems of the world

and all the crazies of the world. Well, I wanted to show one more thing, Drew. I find he'll use that brain for good. You know what I mean? Yes. Hunter Moore. Yes, what do you got there? This guy, he DM'd me before the show because he wanted me to show

this to you. This is a photo of you and James McGivney. He's the guy that runs Bullyville. He said that he was on Life Changers and he met you a few years ago and it reminded me of the funny comment that was on the promo that I posted for this episode and the person wrote, Drew, you

looked older 10 years ago than you do now. You think I look older there? You look so much younger these days than you did 15 years ago it's wild i agree a lot of people agreed caleb uh susan make note don't caleb has a permanent job with this family well that year uh that year um was rough i was doing life, a daytime talk show on, on CW. That was life changers. I was doing an evening talk show on HLN. I was doing love line from 10 to midnight every night.

And we did, I think at least one season of celebrity rehab, maybe two during all that. And that was insane. That was truly insane. Uh, Casey Gates just puts up GenuCell. Thank you. He's making more money too, but that was insane. That was truly insane. Casey Gates just puts up GenuCell. Thank you, Casey. He's making more money too, but that's okay. He had a good run of it.

Yeah, that was fun. It was really a very fun year. And the teams, I had wonderful producing teams, both during the daytime. A lot of those people went on to be executive producers of their own shows you know you've seen their shows all over daytime and the hln program we had just a crack team of really essentially 12 people that put on an hour of television four nights a week that it was that's insane good old and they did it they did it and as yeah burt burt de brau and they now that they

do it but you see we had an impact. I mean, here it comes back again on a Netflix documentary 10 years later. It's kind of wild. All right. So having said all that, yeah, the second law of thermodynamics is about entropy and why things are always getting more complicated in the world. And that life is about taking away entropy. It's like controlling it. But I heard somebody describe it today, life about taking away entropy. It's like controlling it. But I heard somebody describe it today,

life as a mining entropy, was life mines entropy. Okay, so this is way over my head. Yeah. Okay. So stop talking. Okay, I'll stop talking about it. Anything else, Susan, we should do before we wrap up?

Well, we'll probably be talking about COVID tomorrow with Dr. Kelly and Dr. McCullough. Or censorship or whatever. I'm thinking about like, while you guys were talking how, how this thing with Hunter, Hunter has been like, okay, but we couldn't, doctors were getting censored for saying the word ivermectin. So we're going to, we're going to go back over to that type of topic. That and what people think about the vaccines now and what about Omicron and what about early treatment versus the kinds of treatments that are available now we'll see what he's up to it's you know medicine is sort of reverting back to how it operates which individual

practitioners are making their decisions on behalf of the patients and doing what they need to do and no one is getting in the fucking way yeah we'll go back if you want to go back and see the previous interview with dr mccullough you can see how far we've come oh did i did i talk to him we we i think i did i my recollection is i talked to him a lot about we talked to cory and we talked wait is this the guy that's in where is he from texas i think can you got anybody help me was he on our show caleb or am i getting him mixed up was he on which got dr mccullough yeah he was but the episode i believe was taken down oh yeah but then it's on facebook right yeah it would still be on facebook i don't think we were on rumble at that time uh dr mccullough

is from he is from texas yeah i did i think i talked to him and well i remember talking to him and we talked mostly which is why it was so well i remember talking to him and we talked mostly which is why it was so odd about why he got taken down we talked mostly about what happened to academic medicine and the behavior of academicians and how egregious some of it was because he is an academician he's a publisher he's a cardiologist he published was the editor-in-chief of a couple of major journals yeah okay so we talked to him on july 6 2021 he also did some important work on the kidney and the heart right that's what i'm thinking the right guy yeah so if you go to drdrew.com you can find the link there

but we did it yeah i remember this guy the old interview yeah so i mean so much has happened since then you know right right and i hope he adjusts some of his some of his ideas i hope some of them are new but yeah you can find it on um on facebook probably it's not on youtube anymore right what is it or not on youtube anymore no it's on there oh it was a dose of dr drew okay that's why it was my show caleb this was one of my bookings so yeah so you can see A Doze of Dr. Drew find it on drdrew.com I'll give you the link

I'll put the link on if you want to see what he was saying back then you can see one of my horrible productions but thank God for Caleb that's all I can say so we'll wrap things up everybody thank you for being here thank you guys out on Twitter spaces. We appreciate your calls.

Of course, big thanks to Charlotte Laws. And we will see you tomorrow at 3 o'clock. We will start on all the usual platforms. If we start to get into material that might get us censored, we will drill over. We will leave YouTube and go to Rumble. Is that correct, Caleb? Yes, that's correct. I don't think we're going to have to.

Okay. Okay. I think we're okay now. All right. I don't think we're going to have to. Okay. I think we're okay now. I haven't gotten any bad news from YouTube yet, so I think we're going to be okay. All right, thank you all so much. Hopefully we're coming out the other side.

We'll see you tomorrow at 3 p.m. Pacific time. See you then. Ta-ta. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and

I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me. Call 911.

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