Ask Dr. Drew - College Palestine / Israel Protests: Free Speech, Hate Speech & Your First Amendment Rights w/ Lawyer Harmeet Dhillon – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 353

Episode Date: May 4, 2024

Protect speech, punish violence. True supporters of the First Amendment oppose government suppression of free speech even if the speech is abhorrent. But when does free speech cross the line – or can “hate speech” even exist without violent actions? As college students at Columbia, UCLA & UT Austin rally around the Israel / Palestine conflict, First Amendment attorney Harmeet Dhillon pledges to defend the rights of “jack**s terrorist apologists to protest” until they target students for their ethnicity or become violent. What should happen to the students who vandalized Hamilton Hall – and how does the state’s response affect the free speech rights of everyone else? Harmeet Dhillon is managing partner at Dhillon Law who focuses on commercial litigation, election law, and First Amendment rights. She represented President Trump in legal cases related to his removal from the ballot in multiple states. Follow Harmeet at https://x.com/pnjaban and learn more at https://DhillonLaw.com 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors  • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at https://drdrew.com/paleovalley • COZY EARTH - Susan and Drew love Cozy Earth's sheets & clothing made with super-soft viscose from bamboo! Use code DREW to save up to 40% at https://drdrew.com/cozy • TRU NIAGEN - For almost a decade, Dr. Drew has been taking a healthy-aging supplement called Tru Niagen, which uses a patented form of Nicotinamide Riboside to boost NAD levels. Use code DREW for 20% off at https://drdrew.com/truniagen • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Get an extra discount with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 GEAR 」 • NANLITE - Dr. Drew upgraded his studio with Nanlite: the best lighting for film, TV, and live streaming podcasts. Bring your vision to life at https://drdrew.com/nanlite 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 AFFILIATES 」 Some of the links from this show are affiliate links, and as an Amazon Associate, we may earn an affiliate commission from qualifying purchases – at no cost to you. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician with over 35 years of national radio, NYT bestselling books, and countless TV shows bearing his name. He's known for Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Teen Mom OG (MTV), The Masked Singer (FOX), multiple hit podcasts, and the iconic Loveline radio show. Dr. Drew Pinsky received his undergraduate degree from Amherst College and his M.D. from the University of Southern California, School of Medicine. Read more at https://drdrew.com/about Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today we're going to get in deep on free speech with Armeet Dhillon. Armeet is the managing partner at Dhillon Law. It's spelled D-H-I-L-L-O-N. Focusing on commercial litigation, election law, First Amendment rights, and First Amendment will be our deep dive today. You can follow her at dhillonlaw.com, D-H-I-L-L-O-N again. You can, I think, see her sweaters there, which we'll talk about that in a second.

Her ex-platform is Dylan Law. And also you're going to have to follow me on this one. P-N-J-A-B-A-N, we'll talk about that. Dylan, our meet has been one of the most diligent champions of doing God's work for free a lot of the time here in the state of California, pushing back on the excesses here and now on the national stage. She'll tell you about that. We'll get into it all after this. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started

this. He was an alcoholic. Because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician.

I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop, and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Well, Mother's Day is upon us, and GenuCell's Mother's Day sale has arrived as well.

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a free gift, plus free shipping. That is GenuCell.com slash Drew, G-E-N-U-C-E-L.com slash D-R-E-W. As I said, Armeet is the managing partner at Dillon Law, D-H-I-L-L-O-N. You can follow her. I'm going to make sure I'm getting her X-platform correct, but I know you can do it at Dillon Law, D-H-I-L-L-O-N. You can follow her. I'm going to make sure I'm getting her X platform correct, but I know you can do it at dillonlaw.com. And we're going to talk about

hate speech and what's going on the college campuses, but I got a few things I want to get into first. Please welcome or meet Dillon. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you. You betcha. So first, I got a couple things before we get into the First Amendment issues. Am I getting your main X platform correct? P-N-J-A-B-A-N? Yes, it's actually named after my license plate of my dearly departed Jaguar. And it's a shortened version of a woman from Punjab. So I was born in Punjab, India as a small child and

came to the United States. And so it's sort of a hearkening back to my heritage. Got it. I figure it's something like that. I just am too sort of culturally ignorant to kind of place it. And I apologize for that. And then Dylan. I was going to say, who knew that Twitter was going to take off? So I picked a random name and now I'm stuck with it. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I did that with my email address and I've still had the same random email address. So people are like, what's the numbers mean? I'm like, I didn't know what an email was at the time. But I want to give you a chance to talk about your passion very quickly. Sweaters.

Yeah. So I'm wearing one. I use knitting as a kind of form of therapy and helps me wind out in the evening because all day I'm fighting with people and threatening people and creating drama in my legal world. And the knitting is very calming. And at the end of the day, I have sweaters. So my husband has about a dozen sweaters I've made for him and I've got about 40 of them now. And so it's become a passion and a hobby and a way to be creative. So you don't actually, people can't purchase your sweaters or anything. It just stays home. Yeah. Absolutely not. Only my immediate relatives These are not simple sweaters. These are not just basic sweaters or hoodies or something.

These are elaborate patterns. And I've seen you at work. I don't know if you bring your work a lot of places. So congratulations on excelling there as well. I just saw a tweet you put out about voter registration of non-citizens. Tell me about that. Yeah, so what we're seeing, and this was odd because it comes from a red state of South Carolina, and what we're seeing is, of course, all of these quote-unquote refugees being dumped in American cities throughout the country.

And this form showed that these people were being given an opportunity with their signing up for IEDs to register to vote. And they check yes or no. Are you opting out? Nowhere on this form are they being told that if you register to vote as a non-citizen, you're committing a federal crime. And there appears to be a deliberate attempt by refugee agencies or NGOs or the states to induce people to register to vote. And then, of course, you add the lack of checks and balances at the time of voting. And I think there's a very real risk, perhaps intentional, that non-citizens are, and not just non-citizens, I'm not talking about green card holders, I'm talking about

illegal aliens, people who are not legally admitted to this country other than on a temporary basis being registered to vote. I think it's deeply concerning, and I think it's probably intentional. Well, speaking of intentionality, those of us that aren't in the throes of the battles that you must be involved with, it's hard to understand what's going on. It all looks very intentional, but the end game is not at all clear other than keeping entrenched elites in power. But even that seems confusing. So what is it that you think is going on or do you know? Well, yeah, I have a very strong belief that dating back 20 years george soros led a concerted effort by billionaires on the left to corrupt this country's voting system to corrupt the outcome of elections by spending a huge amount of money on it and the

right while they we now know about it hasn't matched them in any way, shape, or form. So what they do is they use things like mail-in voting, use COVID as an emergency to pass mail-in voting. We saw that here in California as universal mail-in. But then also use other efforts like using the Voting Rights Act to argue that, for example, requiring people to date their absentee ballot is some kind of a civil rights violation. Ludicrous. The Third Circuit just slapped that down today again in a Mark Elias case. And so ultimately, the goal is exactly the kind of chaos you're seeing in our universities. It's a Marxist transformation of this country that is only achieved by stripping away the power of the normal

middle-of-the-road citizens to be able to vote and have their vote counted. We did not have a fair election in 2020, and I would argue we haven't had fair elections for some time. And we know this here in California, we've gotten used to it, but I mean, South Carolina? Are you kidding me? Georgia? That is what's happening in this country and every time you shut down one of their avenues like zuckerbucks has been shut down systematically in numerous states they come up with other ways and you don't know about it until too late because my party the republican party is a feckless mess when it comes to being organized and fighting this what do you recommend in response? Other than money.

And by the way, really quick before you end, I'm just flashing onto a video I saw of Soros saying that he has a God complex and that he was young. It was really bad, but it's gotten better now because he can actually act like God with his money, which was astonishing. I mean, that's psychopathy.

That's evil science, evil doctor taking over the world. That is, any science fiction would have that character in it. Well, but he is the leader of a movement. He's not alone. It's easy to demagogue George Soros. He just kicked it off. Today, there are dozens and dozens of Democrat billionaires who reliably write big checks to PACs and get the biggest goofballs

elected. Now, I mean, John Fetterman has been a pleasant surprise in some of his pronouncements recently, but the idea that John Fetterman would win a fair election in Pennsylvania, no way. That only happens with a corrupt system and excess money. So it is necessary but not sufficient for the right to match that money with our own money but then we have to get rid of the corruption in the consultant classes and all of that all the reasons that i cited when i ran for rnc chair i think those remain problems in the party so let's go on to the campuses and talk about uh the the limitations of free speech. I am a, you know, we had a little piece rolled in before we went live here.

I don't know if you saw my comments on that, Armit. But, you know, I want to defend people's rights to say whatever, the most abhorrent stuff, but there are still limitations on free speech. And I don't understand why on one hand, we have people being censored. And on the other hand, where people's free speech rights are being defended, they're actually hurting other people. What's going on here? Well, what's so funny is I'm having flashbacks as i'm watching what's happening

on tv to the 1980s at dartmouth where i was one of the conservative students pushing back on mobs of students doing the exact same thing back then it was a liberation theology and it was um divestment from companies that did business in south africa we had the same stuff occupy the dean's office put shanties on the green, et cetera, et cetera. And the goal is to, they're like toddlers. They're getting attention for their pet idea to the exclusion of other people's ability to do what they want. So I think that's the real problem. I agree with you that students should have the right to free speech. They can put on their keffiyehs and demonstrate all day long, but their free speech

ends when they prevent other students from attending the classes they paid for, when they violently threaten people, when they effectively shut down the campus from operation. That is when the campus police and a good, well-organized university should be called in to drag them off to cool off in a cooling tank, or the police or the National Guard. When you see a Jewish student being prevented from attending class at UCLA in California, where you're in my tax dollars, subsidize that institution, just because he's a Jew, people should be arrested for that. And that is beyond free speech. That is obstruction. That is violence and false arrest and so many other things. And it is not protected by the Constitution.

And, you know, bordering on hate and certainly racist. But what I don't understand, let's try to, I'd like to understand where the line is. I personally believe that my ability to drive down the freeway or across the Golden Gate Bridge, I'm a doctor, you know, the people will be harmed potentially. I'm not saying necessarily, but potentially. They ought to be instantly removed from that spot. They can go off the freeway immediately and keep going, but they instantly should be taken off obstructing the normal conduct of people's lives and businesses. Do you agree?

Well, absolutely. So let me give you an example. I got a notice here in San Francisco that there are going to be a number of street closures tomorrow in San Francisco for protests involving this very issue. And when you're going to be obstructing roads and so forth, the general rule under the First Amendment is you have to get a permit to do that. And there has to be other ways for people to get around. That doesn't work with bridges. In fact, I believe there's one incident of somebody who was waiting for a transplant organ, and that was blocked. They had to lose their ability to have that transplant just a month ago here in San Francisco.

And so, no, you cannot do that. Why isn't that attempted murder? It should be attempted murder. It's gross negligence at a minimum. But it's so easy. It's so clear. Yes, you have a right to demonstrate. Do as you please.

And even civil disobedience. But at the point, I mean, well, let's talk about that. When does free speech become civil disobedience? but at the point, I mean, well, let's talk about that. When does free speech become civil disobedience and what is that line? Well, you know, look, if you're being civilly disobedient, you're actually in olden days signing up to be arrested and willing to stand behind your principles. What you see today is professors wearing these vests and saying, I'm a professor, I'm a professor, like that's my get out of jail free card. No, if you want to link arms and block access to a campus, block access by the police, tap a cop on the head and see what happens and, you know, fuck around and find out, that is what's going to happen is you should be arrested and hauled off to jail. And that's not what's happening, in fact. In fact, the opposite is happening in fact in fact these administrators are kowtowing and you know sort of genuflecting at the altar of these protesters and northwestern

is actually reached an accommodation with protesters they're going to have a muslim dorm a segregated dorm for muslim students and they're going to explore divestment from companies that do business in israel so that the terrorists win. I think these students are little terrorists. They're terrorizing Jewish students and they're terrorizing everybody who wants to get an education at that campus. And that is not permitted by the First Amendment. Waving signs, making yourself heard on a public campus, by the way, you can do that in protected areas. You can do that in certain areas, but a campus is not an open free speech zone and neither are government buildings necessarily. So your rights stop at the

point at which you make it impossible for the building's intended purpose to be effectuated. So if you're blocking access, you're beyond the First Amendment. If you're shouting loudly, that's protected by the First Amendment within reason. Well, let's talk about the olden days because most people, I suspect, don't even understand the concept of civil disobedience. So in the olden days, it was really being civilly disobedient to, say, protest the Vietnam War, right? Because with the intent and the understanding that you would be arrested and you would be prosecuted for the civil disobedience, so you could make the case in court that the government is unjust in its prosecution of this war and that your civil

disobedience was against the government and its role in its current military action. Right? Isn't that how it was designed to work? Drew, I'm smiling because I was involved in campus protests at UC Berkeley in 2017, where they barred my friend Ann Coulter and others from being able to speak on the campus. And so I was looking up a protest that was going to occur, a counter protest, on the Berkeley police website. And the Berkeley police website at that time had a menu, and if you were going to have a protest, you could apply for your permit online, but you could also apply for a symbolic arrest. You could literally have the cops symbolically arrest you for cameras and then release you out back. And so what's happening today is these people are being arrested. San Francisco has a new DA. There's a new DA in town and she's arresting people.

Are they going to be prosecuted? It remains to be seen whether these criminals who are blocking access of people just trying to go home or an ambulance crossing the bridge with an organ, are they going to be punished for that? I don't think so. I think that there's no consequences these days. These students are really destroying the educations of thousands of people and there's no consequences these days. These students are really destroying the educations of thousands of people, and there's no consequences. I don't think there are going to be consequences from where I'm sitting. If Biden were smart, he would actually come out in favor of cracking down on these fools, but I don't think he is smart. Well, I mean, why would they?

They're getting their way in Chicago, Northwestern. So, hmm. But I want to kind of talk more about the civil disobedience. I mean, I can only think of two reasons for which civil disobedience is defensible. One is to make the case in court that you were defending against an unjust government or something about the government action. Or I can imagine to create a public, what Lincoln used to call the public mind, to the point where the legislators might take some action. Are there other reasons for civil disobedience other than, you know, is there other things that people might use civil disobedience to do other than get pictures? You know, I mean, saving lives, perhaps. I mean, certainly pro-life protesters have used that method to block access to abortion clinics with the argument that it's serving the higher good of saving a life.

They're willing to go to jail for that. And that's the point. What we have here is these live action role playing, LARPing students who want all the the imagery and the pomp and circumstance of being protesters, the keffiyeh, the the, you know, doing the Muslim prayer where they don't even know what they're doing or saying. But they don't want the consequences. So they aren't really willing to stand behind. I don't think they even know what's going on in Gaza. They don't, you know, certainly don't hear them talk about October 7th. You know, not even two sides to that issue. They just swept up in a mob. They're ill-informed. They're poorly educated. They have no good parental guidance at home because if they did, they wouldn't be doing this.

And there are no consequences from the in pari parentis administrators there. They're being coddled and catered to. And it is sad because these are the folks who are applying to my firm and your office for jobs. They are half-baked at best. And this is a new generation of young Americans. And so what is wrong with the administrators? What do you say? I try to understand sort of psychologically what's going on there. And my, I don't know, the previous sort of crop of administrators, not this particular one, I thought to myself, well, they were demonstrating in the 60s and 70s, and they took the position that you should never trust anybody over 30, and you should fight authority. Thereby, if I'm the authority, well, oh boy, now what?

I better be with the students as opposed to an authority because that's all bad. It's really like somebody who's unwilling to be a parent. It's the same exact thing. But that, I feel like, was 10 or 15 years ago. That was when Brett Weinstein and his wife were being sort of assaulted on campus. What does this new crop of administrators think they're doing? So, Drew, that was only like five years ago when Brett and his wife were being harangued out of. Is that right? Five years ago?

It seems like forever. Oh, absolutely. This is literally. I thought it was at least 10 years ago. I think it was the year before COVID that all of that happened. And so, this stuff has been happening. I mean, my client Andy Ngo was viciously beaten by a mob

of Antifa, you know, just right before COVID. So, this stuff is all very recent. But back to your question, who goes into the administration of a safe campus? First of all, it's a nice, safe, cushy job. It's a white-collar job. You're surrounded by liberal professors. And the atmosphere on campuses is typically liberal. This is not a newsflash. And so you're liberal, you're sympathetic, but there have been no consequences for years.

I remember when these Marxist students took over the Baker Library at Dartmouth, my Ivy League institution. There were no consequences for those people. I mean, they just, like, jumped up and down. So that's literally been the way of life on the American campus for decades. And, you know, the Vietnam War was really the last time that people actually got arrested for protesting and there were consequences. And, you know, I respect that. If you feel strongly enough about your belief and against a war that you're willing to serve time or at least be greatly inconvenienced, that's going to get my attention. I'm interested to see that. I'm very disinterested to see what's happening on these campuses right now. They're literally not paying anything. They're getting off of class. It's, you know, the kind of thing I would do in high school, maybe if I were in that crowd, it's like, it's a snow day. It's a snow day for these people. It's a snow semester. Yeah. You're really, you're putting yourself back in White Plains Junction. So, we had a similar apartheid demonstration when I was in college where

they took over the administration. I never heard the word apartheid before. So I feel like, well, that was good. They raised my awareness of something awful and I had no idea what they were talking about. But the odd thing as I sort of watched these things develop, the speakers, the student speakers that got up were so terrible and just kept going, just think, just use your head and think, think about things. And I'm like, okay, got it. You're an institution where critical thought is sort of the whole point of this all. It was terrible. And within 24 hours, there was the whole place with canvassed with these outsiders with books and pamphlets about Marxism and communism and about political movements. Where did these guys come from? How did they even find out about this?

I was down the road from you at Amherst College. And I'm not even sure if this was you know years before but it was same stuff and uh probably the same and the college era actually yeah i think this is the apartheid was happening at that time but you know i had the same story at dartmouth i actually got my start as a journalist i call a journalist at dartmouth when the the the organizers of this takeover on my campus were speaking to each other in Hindi, of all things. And I actually understood what they were saying because I speak Punjabi. And they were Marxists from India.

Prominent sons of prominent Marxist politicians in India were organizing this thing in the United States. And so it is Marxism. And this is just the flavor du jour of it. I think that this is well-funded, not by supporters of Hamas, but it is well-funded by destablers of the United States because this is the most convenient vogue issue. Students are stupid and easily led. And it'll be some other issue next year. Whatever's in the news, they're going to seize on it and use that to destabilize the campuses. Terrorizing Jews is a positive side effect for these people. That's it. It's an old playbook, it seems like, right? It certainly seems like a common thing. So I got to

take a little break here. I want to talk more about the destabilizing and what you think that's all about and what can be done about it. It it is sort of extraordinary um i i'm interested in also mass formation which i actually interviewed uh matthias desmet and he has a really we we absolutely came to the exact same conclusions about how hysterias and mobs are are inculcated and that's all clearly happening this is fertile soil for the destabilization to do you said and i want to i want to get back towards the first amendment stuff again a little bit more to try to understand that line of you know where where first amendment can needs to be protected at all cost and where you've crossed a line where you've broken a law and we have to let the legal system

do its thing. Armie Dillon is with me. As I said, you can follow her. Let's get her on Twitter. I'm going to say it now with full force, P-N-J-A-B-A-N. That is her X handle, Dillon Law, D-H-I-L-L-O-N, and also dillonlaw.com. We will be right back after this. Let's talk about aging because everyone wants to know how to slow it down. For almost a decade, I've been taking a healthy aging supplement called TruNiagen. This supplement boosts NAD.

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here and we were before the break talking about uh how things are sort of set up these days for these hysterias that we're getting into. And these destabilizers are out there kind of whipping things up. It feels to me, so the basic construct is, as Matthias Desmet sort of explains it, and it may or may not be accurate but he sort of has a theory that uh the the lack of religion starting in the 20th century create a rise in narcissism and envy and grievance and that uh charismatic leaders took advantage of that and centralized authority and used uh useful idiots to do their thing and now we are doing the same thing but with more bureaucratic administrative states much like monarchical times, almost feudal states where there's ensconced elites. But same old techniques of using free-floating anxiety and press and amplifying with propaganda and down-regulating with censorship. All these things that really Louis XIV did. And you would think

the people that come, that hearken from the liberal tradition would be the last people on earth to identify with these phenomenologies, these mechanisms. And yet here we are. So I'm trying to figure out what is going on. What is happening? Do you have a theory of course i wait till you take a drink of water apologize for that my theory i my theory is that um well i think destabilization of this stable country is certain certainly a short-term goal of the left because you're not going to be able to transform it into the mold of the Marxist mold until you really break it down. I mean, Alinsky teaches how to do that. And I saw one interesting critique of what's going on on the campuses today that it's maybe not hitting the mark because the target is too amorphous.

What's the target here? Jews, Israel, it's kind of far away. And if they were, in fact, instead focusing on Biden, because President Biden is, of course, the head of state and we're sending money to Israel and all of that, it might be more effective for the left. So I think ultimately this is good theater, but is it going to be destabilizing our country in any meaningful way? This isn't, but corrupting our elections is, to the point where a lot of citizens feel discouraged about voting and citizen apathy and the rising economic cost of living in this country is creating an underclass, a disaffected class of people who might be more susceptible to this Marxist teaching.

If you make people hungry and angry, they're going to be more susceptible to joining your movement, your Marxist movement. And so I do think Marxism is behind this. I mean, I've given a couple of speeches recently about a different aspect of what you talked about at the beginning of that comment. I think paganism is really on the rise in this country. And if you think about worshiping transgenderism as a form of paganism, that has been elevated to a state religion. President Biden's recent rules in education and the EEOC's recent pronouncements on these issues show that now we're supposed to worship people's delusional choices and elevate them. I mean, there are flags over this. You're

going to get punished in your workplace if you don't use the right pronouns. You're going to get punished in business if you don't use the right pronouns. You could lose your ability to go to that campus if you don't use the right pronouns. So could lose your ability to go to that campus if you don't use the right pronouns. So I think this is all different ways of Marxist attempts to destabilize this country and eliminate it as a democracy and republic and remake it into this liberal ideal. It hasn't, of course, ever worked in any society in the world. And yet these billionaires with their utopian visions, the George Soros's, I think that's what they want to see happen in the world. And yet these billionaires with their utopian visions of George Soros, I think that's what they want to see happen in this country. Because what we have had traditionally at this country is a very conservative, really family-oriented, stable

country. Transition of power is stable. Elections are fair. People believe in that. The family is a respected unit but i have to say dr drew and i talk about what i see in the schools what happened during covid we learned about the amount of infiltration and corruption happening in our schools about these blue-haired and rainbow haired teachers really pushing transgenderism on these vulnerable students. This rot goes a lot deeper than what just people of my age group have seen with our own two eyes recently. There's a whole generation of indoctrinated young people in this country, and unwinding that is going to be a significant cultural and social challenge. I understand that the generation behind is sort of looking at all

this and will have none of it, or at least very little of it. And I do remember, I was the generation behind the hippie generation. And I remember being in high school and being surrounded by all that and looking at it and going, what is wrong with these people? Like we had a completely, we just sort of moved on, but we weren't going to do that. And I'm wondering if there's going to be, that's how the 80s happened. I'm wondering if there's going to be any sort of, not backlash, but any evolution. If there are, the problem is, well, in a weird way, you mentioned COVID. In a weird way, COVID did us a great service, right? It laid bare forces that were at work.

And again, not to keep harping on this mass formation idea, but his theory is that about 70% of people are just trying to get along, just trying to get along to go along. That's right. And those 70%, my buddy Adam Carolla calls them the pussies and the sheeps. He was yelling at them all through COVID. Why are you people complying? Yes, 20% are evangelists.

Something's not right there, but okay, good for them. But why are the rest of you going along with this? And I think the fact that that 70% did go along with it. It proved so harmful, hurt so many people that people are not so prone to that kind of manipulation, at least with the same hysteria that was going on during COVID. Do you agree with that? I don't know. So we live in California, but I travel all over the country. I gave a speech in Wyoming the other day.

And in Wyoming, nobody day and in Wyoming, nobody was wearing a mask literally at the event I was at. In San Francisco, I step out of my door here, people are wearing masks and those masks are not effective at deterring the spread of disease. Maybe they're 5% effective, but it's ridiculous. And so, no, there is still a mass psychosis here. And the vast majority of people in suburban and urban United States are sheep. And they don't want to be picked on or called names by their friends. I have a homeowner's association I belong to at my weekend place in Sonoma. And they're crueler than any high school. You step out of line over there and everyone will let you know.

You know, these Prius driving fanatics will let you know that you've stepped out of line. You know, how dare you question the tree huggers? How dare you step out of line? And so I think that it's a real problem. And I saw it in politics. I mean, I ran for chair of the RNC. I stood up and I pointed out numerous obvious truths.

And yet, you know, there was a go along, get along, let's stick with the program and stick with the status quo. And so there are far too many Americans and people in this world who are willing to question authority in an articulate way and stand up and not be part of that mob. There is a mob mentality in our Western society, for sure. I'm sorry. Somebody was talking to me. I didn't get the comment. Donna Brazil, is that what you said? Oh, about Brazil per se. Oh yeah, Brazil. About what's going on in Brazil. Yeah, talk to me about that.

Sure. So what you're seeing in Brazil is a flavor of what could happen here in this country. So in Brazil, the government is shutting down and persecuting public figures who disagree with the government, who are opposed to the government. And they're investigating Elon Musk because of his refusal to go along with the censorship demands of the Brazilian government. And they're actually opening up a criminal investigation into him. Well, we haven't gotten to the point of criminal investigations over most speech, although I would argue that President Trump is actually being criminally prosecuted right now for his First Amendment protected speech. But our government has been actively involved both at the California and the federal level in censoring what we can see online and to the point of speech about COVID, speech about vaccines,

certainly speech about elections. I've appeared on one of those federal hit list of enemies of the state. You may have as well, Dr. Scott Atlas has, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya has. Our government has chosen to try to just suppress that speech. But our neighbors to the north in Canada, doctors have had their licenses threatened for their speech about COVID. Jordan Peterson has had his psychiatry license happened as well. Forgiving families today in this state, aside from COVID, if you try to help a family delay vaccination for legitimate reasons, you're on a government hit list. And they will move to take away your license. Look, they are making the fall guy for the opioid crisis the drug company. And they were duplicitous, and they should be held to account for it. But the actual perpetrators was the regulatory agencies and the professional societies and the state boards who demanded that we prescribe large amounts of opioids or we were guilty of patient abuse.

And by the way, the lawyers were guilty too. The lawyers were taking us, they were prosecuting us not for malpractice, but for criminal patient abuse. And we all just froze and sent everything to pain management. Pain management said pain is the vital sign, the VA, the California Medical Society, Joint Commission, the Department of Mental Health

all said, that's right. Your pain scale is as important as your pulse. And if you don't treat it aggressively, even though it's a heroin addict in withdrawal, you're guilty of patient abuse. That went on for a decade, a decade. I mean, that's what was going on. It's sick. And today, my dad is a retired orthopedic surgeon.

So I heard those stories in our own household about pain management issues. But today, the equivalent of that is the endocrinologists, right? I was hearing from an endocrinologist the other day who would never prescribe in her practice that tell a child they could become the opposite sex, not possible. But their board certification requires every 10 years that they sit for an exam and they have to answer the question, what hormone and what drugs would you give to a patient who wants to be male to female, female to male? It's a lie. Of course, it cannot happen. And yet, to keep your license and to be able to treat the patients who have legitimate endocrinology problems, you have to parrot this lie. Students in medical schools today, as you know, have to parrot every transgender lie. And I'm representing

in court three young women, now adults, but they were children when California and Nebraska doctors cut off their healthy tissue. So when the medical industry is perpetrating lies, when the legal industry is perpetrating lies, when the once respected pillars of society, science and law and law enforcement and government are parroting lies, naturally, poorly informed or simply harried Americans are going to follow those authority figures, and they're the ones leading us down this wrong path, absolutely wrong direction. And it may be retrievable in some ways,

but some of us are jumping up and down and shouting about it. And those are the ones getting persecuted and prosecuted. So we really are the ones paying for our views. The playbook is the same playbook as COVID, the same playbook as the opioid pandemic. There is a few, like in the case of COVID, you had Deborah Birx. You have an evangelist, evangelizing physician for a cause, lockdown. And she goes around and gets all the regulatory agencies and all the state agencies on board. This is the same thing you're seeing with this issue,

which is, I don't know who the event, I saw the opioid thing go down. I know some of those evangelizing and I'm not, people always accuse me of attacking evangelists. I'm not talking about evangelists. I'm talking about people who are evangelizing for a cause that is unclear. There's no reason to evangelize for it. I mean, you can certainly

do the science and you can advocate for it and whatnot, but evangelizing, going around, and it becomes your God's work. I don't mean, again, to talk about it as a religious thing, but they feel like they are on the side of some... The guys in the opioids, I used to call it, this was my white hat profession. I was a hero and I was going to eliminate pain in this country. I have all these quotes from them. I give a lecture about this. They were heroes.

And look, whenever you have a scientist or a physician that becomes an evangelist for a position or a cause, you have a problem on your hand. You have something dangerous going on here? Well, I think it is a religion. Certainly this transgender stuff has risen to the level of a state religion. It has a place in the White House. It has a place in the popular culture.

And it has a place in your medical office. And how dare you call somebody by their correct pronouns. And so this is permeating every level of society. The president's administration has just ordered that every American workplace has to accommodate this mental illness as if it is normal or we will be punished. We will be punished in the courts. And so this is a huge problem. I have a close transgender friend.

A friend of mine is married to a transgender woman. And she's from a European country. And she has a really interesting sort of take on all this. She's like, look, in my country, when I started having pubertal changes, I had this illness and I had this emotional reaction. My patients took me to my doctor. My doctor just sent me a psychiatrist. I was evaluated and I met criteria for this gender dysphoria. And I've been on very, very complicated, dangerous medication ever since. And it's worked for her and she's great, but she's

very respectful of it being a medical condition with a medical treatment that is quite dangerous and shouldn't be just whimsically applied. To me, again, from the medical perspective, it's about getting the right treatment for the right patient. And if you're just giving it to everybody, then there's no risk-reward analysis. There's no decision-making about what the criteria are for treatment. And now we're only going to hurt people. Well, Drew, the state of Maine, the governor just signed a bill that immunizes medical professionals from the consequences of doing this, including the children. It has made it legal for people, not parents, but random people to smuggle children into the state of Maine and perform these surgeries on them and then immunizes the doctors

who do it. This is grotesque. It is a grotesque distortion of medicine. It is a far cry from what you just described about the 70s and 80s protocols of how transgender aspirants were treated. They had to live for years, and I've been studying this case with great detail because of my Kaiser litigation here. They had to live for years as the opposite sex before they were allowed to proceed with medical treatment. And so today it's like, oh, one school counselor, one psychology appointment at Kaiser, and they'll put you on the assembly line to have your sexual organs removed. And so I think this is a huge problem, and it's more pervasive than people know. People are ashamed to talk about it, but it is a pervasive problem. It's being used in child custody.

You know, those crazy woke moms are using this as a weapon against normal fathers in child custody disputes in liberal states. And it's not just liberal states. This is happening everywhere in America. To answer your question, it is being funded by various liberal organizations. I'm sure you can trace some of that back to Soros. Wealthy people, WPATH, the medical professional board of these gender doctors. And people aren't ashamed. They're the ones who should be getting reported to the medical boards, not the people who questioned vaccination for children or healthy adults. It should be the people who are pushing

these destructive surgeries and life-destroying treatments on children who are the ones who fellow doctors should be reporting to the medical boards. But I don't see that happening. So what's on your mind these days? Other than these cases that you're prosecuting, you've been fighting very hard in California for a long time, usually for nothing. What kinds of fights are you finding yourself in these days? Well, I will tell you as a lifelong conservative, being a civil rights lawyer and a civil rights advocate has been a very lonely place at times. I was against the Patriot Act in 2001 and almost alone amongst conservatives. So I am jumping up and down about these issues of civil rights.

This is a very beautiful country. The founders designed this beautiful machine for organizing society, very good one, some imperfections, but they've been largely worked out. But today, most Americans are just simply willing, and I mean both parties, are fundamentally ignorant of the First Amendment. They're ignorant of equal protection and due process. They don't understand that these fundamental rights can be used to protect conservative values and rights as well. I think it would be very easy for our government to declare another emergency. And I went to Congress just a few weeks ago and advocated that Congress overturned the very law that you and I must have talked about during COVID that allowed the governor to declare an emergency and effectively suspend the Constitution.

I am not exaggerating. Judge after judge after judge said, oh, I'm sorry, Harmeet, Ms. Dillon, we can't really do anything about this because there's an emergency. There was no emergency. There was a health crisis. It wasn't an emergency rising to the level of a war, a war on fill in the blank. It was all hype, hysteria designed to take away our rights. So my big concern probably now and for the rest of my life is going to be to tell Americans to wake up. What they did during COVID, they can do it very quickly to us. I won't be surprised if they do do this because that's really the only way at this point that Joe Biden is going to be able to win

is some alteration of the election rules yet again. But I think the left is just desperate to cling to power. And I think that I'm very concerned about that and alert every day. My head is on a swivel to quote my friend John Rich. My head is on a swivel because the next fresh hell is coming just around the corner. It's planned. And with the gullible populace that we saw fall into line during COVID, I think we're primed for that. We're primed to be led off a cliff like lemmings. That is my concern. That's what is on my mind every waking hour. Yeah, I kind of agree with you. Just your report about all the outdoor masking in San Francisco is mortifying to me. In the entire run of the pandemic, there were two cases of outdoor transmission of COVID documented, two.

So outdoor mask wearing is the most bizarre behavior. I just shudder at what we've done to people to make them like that. It's just we've ruined people. But I agree. Delusion and psychosis is what's going on in this country right now. Yeah, and that's what I've been calling mass formation. Yes, absolutely. That is absolutely that.

And how that happened and how they did that. Again, Matthias Desmond wrote a great book called Psychology of Totalitarianism. And he sort of chronicles how this stuff happened in the 20th century. And yeah. And there's a guy named, oh, shoot, I'm going to blank on his name here. Merleau Juist, I think it is, that really talked about this right after the Second World War too, also, or Juiced Merleau or something like that is his name. And it's quite observable. I mean, it's a phenomenon that can be observed and looked at and measured and examined. And we are definitely in something like that right now.

It is, I'm trying to think where to go next as we kind of head towards the end of this conversation. I agree with you that the mass- Let me add a point, if I can. So that is that I was so concerned about these movements and issues that I started a nonprofit called the Center for American Liberty.

We coincidentally started right before COVID. And, you know, there were very few conservative nonprofits out there in this country today. There's like literally hundreds on the left, but on the right, there are very few. And the ones that are there are focused on some niche issue or particular religious viewpoint. And so what we've tried to do through the Center for American Liberty is actually empower citizens to find lawyers at a very low or certainly no expense to them and fight these civil rights issues just like the left does. And I think that's the future, that we still have a court system. And if you can get into court with a good lawyer, hopefully free for you, then you can start to reverse the tide. I can tell you all these students who are protesting

out there, there are lawyers who are giving them advice. That crazy chick, law student who interrupted the dean's going away dinner at UC Berkeley, she got free legal advice from the National Lawyers Guild that it was okay to treat the dean's private home as her soapbox. And so where's the right side of that? Well, I started one, Center for American Liberty, www.libertycenter.org. And I think we're having a growing movement now, people becoming aware. We have Riley Gaines out there who's leading the fight to turn back these Title IX regulation reversals that are enabling men to just wipe out the feminist movement in one stroke and take the trophies of girls. So I think we are starting to wake up a little bit, but is it in time? That's been a big concern for me. The last thing I want

to address is what you did talk about in Congress, I guess it was last week. What is that law that gives the public health officials fiat authority over the Constitution? What is that law? How do we support it being undone? Jacobson versus Massachusetts. Jacobson's versus Massachusetts is, I think, a 1905 law involving smallpox vaccination in Massachusetts. And for religious reasons, an objector said, I don't want to take this vaccine. And he was forced to. I mean, there was a fine levied against him for not taking it. So the ruling is that in an emergency,

the government can effectively suspend your civil rights and your otherwise valid objection under the First Amendment religion clause will not be honored. And as I began to file lawsuits on behalf of religious Californians, who are, by the way, evangelical Christians, were the first people to stand up and get off their knees in this state. Judge after judge said, Jacobson versus Massachusetts, sorry, we don't get to apply strict scrutiny, intermediate scrutiny, low level of scrutiny, no scrutiny is what the court said. Now, this is grossly outdated. You as a doctor know that these types of laws have been used to sterilize people, to treat people with Down syndrome and other so-called people who are mentally deficient as not having the right to have

children, reproduce, live a normal life. These are now considered to be abhorrent viewpoints, and yet they're enabled by this very specific case. So I've urged that Congress has the right and can just pass a law if the president, certainly not this president, but maybe the next president will sign it to reverse that ruling. Jacobson versus Massachusetts is a stain on the constitutional fabric, just like there's Dred Scott, there are other decisions like that. And today in America, we have a very robust, evolved system of equal protection, due process, and fundamental rights. Parents have fundamental rights. Children have fundamental rights. People have the right to worship and practice their religion. And the court wiped out all of that repeatedly in the COVID era. And we need to make sure that never happens again and the courts feel empowered to step up and actually enforce our civil rights. president or governor hair gel uses the magic word emergency, but somehow 100,000 BLM protesters

marching in Los Angeles were somehow okay, but a few hundred protesters on the lawn of the Capitol caused a crackdown over there? No, I don't think so. So we have to bring some reason back to this by passing that law. And I've talked to some members of Congress who are ready to carry that legislation. I'm working on it. That'd be amazing. Please let us know how we can support that. I think associating with Dred Scott is a wonderful way of doing it. I remember Lincoln said about that, that since when is what comes off a Supreme Court

decision, thus say it the Lord. It can all be addressed various ways. And it's not never thus say it the Lord. But the one thing that jumped out at me from COVID is that these public health officials are not trained, are not equipped, do not make good decisions. Francis Collins himself just said that publicly

that they should not have been given this authority and they miscarried it. They just did a horrible job, just an atrocious job. And to have granted them this fiat authority, unelected officials, not even adult medical doctors usually, this is an abomination that has to be addressed. And if they don't address it, I'm really concerned about the next one. Barbara Ferrer, not a doctor. Dr. Fauci, if anybody dug into his behavior during the aids era you know you'd be shocked to see how that person now has control over uh the nih and and lies to congress with no

consequences so i mean of course students are like oh yeah i'm going to protest and spit in the face of jews i mean no consequences why should there be consequences when dr fauci can lie to Congress and there's no consequences there? So this terrible modeling comes from the top of society and it's filtering all the way to the bottom. I agree. And there's a little sort of wrinkle with the public health guys and gals, which is some of them are just like not at all trained. They're not physicians, they're not clinicians, they're not anything. But even at the state level, they're usually physicians, but they're typically pediatricians because that is the training for creating vaccine policy. That's the group that should be creating vaccine policy

for children. And that's why they get those positions. But making fiat decisions over adult public health, they have zero training. I don't do pediatricians. I don't do kids at all. I know my training does not cover that. But them making decisions over adults is equally as egregiously out of line. And that's what we had all over the country. Armeet, I really appreciate you being here. Tell me again, both for the not-for-profit and for where you want people to see you. Yeah, absolutely. So they can follow my nonprofit work at www.libertycenter.org and Center for American Liberty on X. And my law firm is www.dylanlaw, D-H-I-L-L-O-N-L-A-W.com.

We have an extensive website that covers all of our work there. And then me personally, all my views, my knitting, my gardening, and my fiery political views on X at PNJABAN. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. We'll talk soon. All right. Take care. Great.

Thank you. I've just always been admired so much that she walked the walk. I mean, she has done pro bono work for these issues for, I've known her probably about eight, 10 years, something like that. And it's just been extraordinary to watch. She's obviously an extraordinary, talented, brilliant attorney. And just to watch her work, whether you agree or not,

it's nice to see somebody fighting in there, pushing back with their point of view. Caleb, everything good on your front? Anything, should we, let me look at the calls here. What's going on? Caleb, you still with me? Oh yeah, I'm here. I'm just pulling up the calendar for upcoming shows.

Ah, that's good. Let's see here. Okay. Ah, Mike Liddell tomorrow. That should be interesting and fun. Kyle Lucey, Kat Lindley, Peter McCullough. I'm DeMar. That should be interesting and fun. Kyle Lucey. Kat Lindley. Peter McCullough.

I'm actually with him in person on May 7th. May 8th and 9th. We're unclear about those dates in terms of whether I'll be able to do a show. I think one of those, 8th or 9th, I will be able to. That is the plan at least. Again, Joseph Latipo is coming back in here on the 15th. If you have suggestions for guests you'd like to hear from, go to contact.true.com.

We do try to check that out there. And we have our crack booker, Emily Barsh, in there just going to town. And so we'll bring some of the old-timers back again. I know Paul Alexander is very interested in coming back and talking about some issues. So it should be interesting. Let me quickly, if you guys don't mind, look at your chats here and see if there is anything that you guys are saying that we want to bring into the conversation here.

Oh boy, there's all kinds of interesting side topics going on. Thank you for being in the chat on the restream. Okay. on. Thank you for being in the chat on the restream. Okay, and then we look over at the Rumble Rants as well to see what you guys are saying. Okay. Yeah, Casey, you're right. Casey Gates. There's a lot of

back and forth here about vaccines and EUAs. You almost have to look back at some of our previous conversations to get that issue. Yet while not FDA approved, there is sort of a consensus that because there's so much experience with it, it's okay. But the data is still coming in.

As Dr. Fauci himself said, when he was defending why we did not have an HIV, if you see this video flying around, he's was defending why we did not have an HIV, if you see this video flying around, he's talking about why we don't have an HIV vaccine. And he said, look, after five years, you really start to, all hell breaks loose. That's when you start to learn about the problems of these vaccines.

And that's why we studied them so long. So more to be revealed. And again, Peter McCullough has a lot of interesting stuff to say about some of the early treatment stuff. And we'll get some ideas from him, and we will be back tomorrow at 3 o'clock with Mike Lindell. He's got a wild story. I don't know if you guys have ever heard the story,

but it's something I know a little something about, and so it'll be interesting to lead him through his history there if he's willing to talk about it, if he doesn't have to, if he doesn't want to, of course, and where he is now. We'll get to that tomorrow at 3 o'clock. Be here with us. We'll see you then.

Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future.

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