Ask Dr. Drew - Dr. Kelly Victory on OSHA Vaccine Mandates Blocked By Supreme Court Ruling - Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 67

Episode Date: January 21, 2022

Dr. Kelly Victory MD is a board-certified trauma and emergency specialist with over 15 years of clinical experience. Dr. Victory is an expert in disaster preparedness and the medical management of mass casualties. She makes frequent radio and television appearances to discuss issues related to healthcare policy, emergency and disaster, and public health. This episode was originally broadcast on January 18, 2022. Follow Dr. Victory at https://twitter.com/DrKellyVictory Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation ( https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/FirstLadyOfLove). SPONSORS • BLUE MICS – After more than 30 years in broadcasting, Dr. Drew’s iconic voice has reached pristine clarity through Blue Microphones. But you don’t need a fancy studio to sound great with Blue’s lineup: ranging from high-quality USB mics like the Yeti, to studio-grade XLR mics like Dr. Drew’s Blueberry. Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue  • HYDRALYTE – “In my opinion, the best oral rehydration product on the market.” Dr. Drew recommends Hydralyte’s easy-to-use packets of fast-absorbing electrolytes. Learn more about Hydralyte and use DRDREW25 at checkout for a special discount at https://drdrew.com/hydralyte  • ELGATO – Every week, Dr. Drew broadcasts live shows from his home studio under soft, clean lighting from Elgato’s Key Lights. From the control room, the producers manage Dr. Drew’s streams with a Stream Deck XL, and ingest HD video with a Camlink 4K. Add a professional touch to your streams or Zoom calls with Elgato. See how Elgato’s lights transformed Dr. Drew’s set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/  THE SHOW: For over 30 years, Dr. Drew Pinsky has taken calls from all corners of the globe, answering thousands of questions from teens and young adults. To millions, he is a beacon of truth, integrity, fairness, and common sense. Now, after decades of hosting Loveline and multiple hit TV shows – including Celebrity Rehab, Teen Mom OG, Lifechangers, and more – Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio in California. On Ask Dr. Drew, no question is too extreme or embarrassing because the Dr. has heard it all. Don’t hold in your deepest, darkest questions any longer. Ask Dr. Drew and get real answers today. This show is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All information exchanged during participation in this program, including interactions with DrDrew.com and any affiliated websites, are intended for educational and/or entertainment purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Well, here we go, everybody. Thank you for joining us. I'm watching you on the restream. Of course, we're sitting up on the clubhouse as well where we will take calls. Look at that hip outfit. Yeah, this is my Christmas present from Susan. And so I am wearing it today and I love it. I know. So I was wearing it on a, another podcast.

I think you'd like these guys, Susan. It was, I think I remember the name was dope as something, something as dope, dope as Yola, dope as Yola podcast. And really interesting guy, an interesting podcast. And we'll perhaps get him on the stream here coming up. And they liked your cool digs. He didn't notice them. And he has a very dedicated 18 to 24 sort of age group. Andrew Oshkosh-Vealy in the house. I see you there, friend.

But more importantly, let's bring our guest in kelly victory i think you all know kelly our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre the psychopath started this right he was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography ptsd love addiction fentanyl and heroin ridiculous i'm a doctor for say where the hell you. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying. You go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals.

Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Let's talk about our friends at Hydrolyte. I can't say enough about Hydrolyte.

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It uses all natural flavors. It's gluten-free, dairy-free, caffeine-free, non-GMO, and even vegan. Hydrolyte Plus Immunity is also now available in ready-to-drink bottles at the Walmart, next to the pharmacy, or as always, you can find it by visiting hydrolyte.com slash drdrew. That is H-Y-D-R-A-L-Y-T-E dot com slash drdrew. And be sure to use that code drdrew25 at checkout for a special discount. Tell us a little more about Kelly. A regular on this program.

Let me, oh, wait a minute. I've lost all the data on Kelly. Kelly, you here? Come on in. I am here. I'm here. I need to go. I'm seeing Kelly, you here? Come on in. I am here. I'm here. I need to go. I'm not seeing Kelly for some reason.

There you are. Good to see you again. And you had told me just a few minutes ago you're going down to Denver and seeing patients. Is that outpatient medical practice? You do an ER work? What are you doing now? Yeah, I have a concierge practice now down in Denver.

I spend most of my time teaching and speaking and doing public health things. But I do see patients regularly, multiple times a month, and have treated hundreds of COVID patients during this pandemic on top of it. Yes. And so have I now, treated very, very many. And it's been a very interesting experience. There is something. Kelly's also had us kicked off YouTube more than any other guest. Well, there's somebody else.

There's somebody else waiting on the side here. Dr. Zelenko, excuse me. Steve Kirsch is waiting to come on. These are all famous names. We're going to try for a double whammy, see if we can get Kelly and Steve in here and see what that does for us. We're going to call them Kelly and Steve, though. We're not going to use their last names too many times. You might just explode.

The whole thing may just explode. The algorithm will be like, the hatchet will be falling. Exactly. Well, so there is a lot of things. So let's talk about how this all has changed. First, let's talk about how the observations that you predicted came true, and let's review which ones did come true. Cloth masks, for instance. Yeah, I was very outspoken from the very beginning about the fallacy of masks stopping the spread of

a respiratory virus. And this is stuff that wasn't you know, wasn't just my opinion, Drew. It wasn't my crystal ball guess. It was based on decades and decades and decades of literature and experience with previous respiratory viruses. But when I said it, and I said it openly and very publicly early on, I was lambasted in the lay press.

I was censored. I was ultimately kicked off of Twitter and got the stamp of misinformation out there. Now there's some vindication to almost two years later now that people like Rochelle Walensky from the CDC has come out and said, turns out cloth masks are nothing more than, quote, face decoration. Her term, not mine. So there's some vindication there. I also talked about the fallacy of social distancing and the fact that we would never be able to stop the spread of a respiratory virus by doing that. And we know from reams and reams of real world data that that's the fact. Finally, Brown University did a study proving that there

was no difference between six feet and 60 feet. So once again, it was vindicated with a large study. I talked about the fact that it was very predictable. And this doesn't make me anti-vaccine, but it was very predictable that these vaccines would not actually stop you from contracting COVID. That was met with unbelievable derision. I was absolutely vilified for making that statement. And I still am today for saying the truth. Let's stop there. It's plenty for us to unpack there. So let's start with the unpacking. I think Fauci kind of whispered that once or twice, but he didn't make it clear. About vaccines not preventing.

Right, that it was going to stop us from dying. Again, Kelly and I don't agree on everything, but we usually can reach a kind of interesting consensus on things. How would you define vaccine therapy, a vaccination? Because that's where people are getting weird from the get-go. Because I have a specific thing that I call a vaccine. Well, let's talk about the reality of what you and I were both taught in medical school and what was always the standard, Drew, until literally this year. A vaccine was always defined previously as an immunotherapy that protected you by by making you immune to the pathogen itself

meaning you would not so let me let me stop let me stop let me stop that of course was the goal of vaccine therapy but what would you call bcg for for tuberculosis that was a vaccine therapy, BCG, bacillus therapy. Correct. And we know that no vaccine is 100%, but no vaccine was 100%, but the definition of the vaccine was a therapy that imbued immunity to the individual who took it from the illness. Right. Okay, here's where you're going to agree. So immunity broadly understood.

And so when I think about vaccine therapies, I think about something that stimulates. See, I consider the BCG to be a vaccine. It's a vaccination against, doesn't work, but it's an attempt to stimulate the immune system to fight off a pathogen. So to me, I have a broader concept, which is anything that activates my immune system gives me a B cell response, an antibody response and a T cell memory. And it fight helps fight off infection. That's all I want. Cause I mean, I, people break through the shingles vaccine for

goodness sakes. I mean, the, you know, you know things things nothing is perfect it has breakthroughs all right so we're sort of in agreement there so we're sort of saying the same thing except you would you would say immunity you would have a higher standard for immunity than i would well but then yes but then they clearly changed the definition very late in the game here within the past couple of months they changed the definition if you actually go on the world health organization's website or the cdc's website they changed the decades-old definition on their websites to now saying that it is a therapy that decreases your risk of severe illness from something. That is a gross change from what it has been. And what Susan pointed out is not insignificant. There was a change in the narrative.

And the reason it's important to me, Drew, is because the emergency use authorization for the vaccines was predicated on two things. To get an EUA for a vaccine, they had to submit, number one, that they believed, based on their preliminary studies, that it would be effective, and number two, that there were no alternatives. But effective at what? And what they submitted in their EUA applications was, we are submitting that we have reason to believe this will be effective in stopping people from contracting the virus. When that didn't work, they simply changed it and said, oh, no, no, that's not what we said. We said it's

going to be effective at keeping you out of the hospital, effective at keeping you from dying. Well, that's not what they said when they submitted the EUA. When they submitted the EUA, they said it would be effective at keeping you from getting the virus. And that's what you said was bogus and turned out to be bogus. I did. And I wasn't sure, but I'm not surprised. I'm sort of surprised on the time course. I really think this thing wears off a little faster than we realize.

And I'm kind of worried about that. But so be it. Well, I think that was predictable based on the way it was. Because, and again, the reason this wasn't a crystal ball guess on my part, the reason I had said it was going to fail, Drew, was because these vaccines are made so differently from others. And I'm not talking about the mRNA component. I'm talking about simply the fact that they are specifically honed in on a singular spike protein. And given the nature of viruses to mutate and the nature of coronaviruses that are particularly adept at it, it was predictable in my mind

that these viruses would mutate very quickly and the antibodies that were produced by the vaccines would be essentially useless. Are you of the opinion that natural immunity is more efficacious and long-lasting? Oh, there's no question that it is, because when you develop natural immunity, you don't just develop antibodies to a singular spike protein. You develop antibodies to thousands of epitopes, thousands of components on the outside of that virus. So the virus would have to mutate massively in order for my antibodies not to recognize that virus because it's not, I don't have antibodies simply to that singular spike protein. So there's no question that natural immunity, and you know this from...

Yeah, I agree with you. And yet, I had alpha, I had bad alpha, I had sustained immunity, and yet Omicron did get around it. I did, I got Omicron. So it came, you know... Well, that was a year ago. Well, that was a year ago. Well, interestingly, Drew, and we know we know now from the large Copenhagen study out of the University of Copenhagen in Denmark, as well as study out of Iceland, the UK and Israel now are all showing negative efficacy from the vaccines. And again, this doesn't make me I'll explain what that means it doesn't make me anti vaccine but people like yourself who had covid went on and got vaccinated seemed to have a higher risk of coming down with Omicron than had you not been vaccinated at all okay people who was vaccinated I was I I got J and J to be fair The Copenhagen study shows 3.6 times higher risk of coming down with Omicron if you were vaccinated.

So there seems to be a suppression of your innate immune system and those people who have gotten vaccinated. And yet, though, I've seen a lot. I mean, in California, it's a shit show right now. I've seen a lot i mean in california it's a shit show right now i've seen a lot of omicron and it's pretty i mean it's very apparent the difference between the unvaccinated the double vaccinated a year ago and the recently boosted they're they're different populations when it comes to the omicron uh the the triple right boost the triple of airs having a cold mean, they really are not having much else. Now, how long that boost lasts, I don't know. Yeah, they're getting it.

So if you look at Israel, you know, Israel, for example, is the only country that is now four shots into it. They're the only four times vaccinated country on the planet. Plus, they have a mask mandate and a vaccine passport requirement. And they hit a global record yesterday for the highest number of COVID cases per capita on it in a particular day. So four shots in, they hit the global record. They just got the brass ring for the most number of COVID cases for exactly this reason, because people are vaccinated but are coming down with Omicron. But again, if it's a cold, who really cares? I don't know. This is the part I'm struggling with right now. If we can make it a cold. Now, there's another layer to this that I

want to get into. It felt more like having the flu after having a flu shot. You just got like a bad cough and you felt tired. It felt like a post vaccine kind of thing. And again, and again, I agree with you. I think I agree with you. The good news is, Drew, that Omicron being as mild as it is, most people who get it, frankly, vaccinated or not, are having very, very mild symptoms. So don't get me wrong. And I get no, take no glee in the idea that someone's vaccinated and comes down with Omicron anyway. I don't you know, truly, I don't want anyone to come down with it. But the reality is now that it is irrefutable that the vaccines don't prevent you from contracting it and they don't prevent you from spreading it. My singular issue is that there is simply no scientific rationale for discriminating between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. Now, there just isn't a justification for saying, for example, discriminating. What do you mean discriminating? What do you mean? Not allowing

them to work, not allowing them to work or not allowing them to, I don't know, play in a tennis tournament or, you know, not allowing them to, you know, forcing them. I spoke last night to a group of about 25 health care professionals from a community hospital that will remain nameless. techs who are unvaccinated and who are being discriminated against by the hospital because the hospital's policy is that if you are unvaccinated, you need to submit to twice weekly testing. Now, what is a possible justification for requiring only the unvaccinated people to get a Q-tip shoved up their nose twice a week when the vaccinated people we know are also at risk for contracting and spreading COVID. It's punitive. That's why. Is it or I agree. However, if the there would be one reason I could think of them doing it, and that would be the hospital doesn't want the liability of somebody getting very ill

without pressing the issue, without saying they've done whatever they could. And I've seen Omicron make people very, very sick. I've seen some bad stuff. But yes, but people have the right to refuse. They have the obligation to make obese employees you know obese employees lose weight or smoking employees stop smoking or people with multiple sexual partners stop doing that no they don't and so this is punitive let's call it what it is um and it doesn't it has no scientific basis now that we know that the vaccines do not stop you from contracting covid

so yeah it's sort of a false sense of security. Like everybody got the vaccine goes, oh, great. Now I can go out and I'll never get COVID. And then they got it and they're like, well, why did I get the vaccine? Well, it's complicated. Let's all agree that. No, it is. But let me, there's a bigger problem. But like we go to dinner and they ask you for the vaccine, proof of vaccine, but they don't go, do you have COVID? Like they didn't say, hey, have you had COVID in the last 14 days? And in fact, yeah, Susan, in fact, in California, unvaccinated healthcare workers in many places cannot go to work, but vaccinated healthcare workers who test positive for COVID can go to work. No lie. Yeah, that's true. No, I know that's true.

You cannot make this up. Oh, in California, I got a whole menu of things that I say that about, that you can't make up. That's just one of them, my friend. One alternate universe does not make sense anymore. It's not common sense.

We flatten the curve. Let's live our lives and stop know no we flatten the curve let's like you know live our lives and stop so hold on so so here's where i'm having all that i this is all interesting i don't disagree with it we're sort of finding common ground and all this and i'm going to bring steve in in just a second because i oh yeah and steve when i bring you in you were not to get us kicked off youtube my friend you can't use certain words but here's the scandal from my perspective right now we have excellent therapeutics now we have molupiravir we have pexlovid we have monoclonal antibodies now you could argue citrovimab is the only one working for the Omicron. All right, fine. You can't get any of this in California. I don't know what it's like in

Colorado. You can't get it. We had an excellent call yesterday. Keith got it for his grandmother. He had to drive an hour outside of Sacramento. One pharmacy had eight doses. By the time he got there, there was one left. And this is a scandal. This is the vaccine conversation could be tabled if we had access to therapeutics. Am I on to anything? Yes, you just hit the nail on the head. And this is the dirty little secret. If you want my personal opinion on this, Drew, they are slow. As long as it doesn't get me. Hold on. It doesn't get me kicked off YouTube, so slow down. That's all right.

We have two strikes coming. It's been a while. The reality is this. It comes back to that EUA. Right now, the vaccines are only being used under an EUA. They need to get them fully FDA approved and get them furthermore on the children's vaccine schedule before they make these other drugs available. Because as I said, two things are required to have an EUA for the vaccine. And one of them is that there are no other therapeutics available. Once Paxlovid, Malnupiravir, and all these things become readily available, the EUA is in jeopardy

and they know it, which is why they are absolutely wedded to getting full FDA approval and getting these vaccines on the childhood vaccine program before they make those medications wildly wildly available. That's why. Well, I don't know, because they already have other therapeutics that are effective available. They just are. They aren't available the way they should be if they were responsibly distributing the medication, but it's out there. So the EUA is already kind of under attack. Well, and again, it's been sleight of hand because they changed what they called efficacy. They changed it from, you know, being effective at keeping you from contracting the virus to effective in keeping you from dying from it. As we all know, they've suppressed drugs like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin from the beginning. You know, interestingly, a little tidbit about Molnupiravir, one of my favorite

things that I don't think you and I have talked about, Molnupiravir is Merck's new drug. Merck, you may recall, was the original creator and manufacturer of ivermectin back in the day before ivermectin was off patent and was wild, you know, was available as a generic. And, you know, the mainstream media has lambasted those of us who talked about that drug ivermectin because it's a quote, veterinary. We're actually not allowed to, we're not, you have to say the I word. We literally can't say I word here and stay on YouTube. Okay. So keep going. I word. Yes. Okay. The I word, you know, you aren't supposed to use because it was created for use in horses. Well, guess what Merck developed Molenupiravir for?

I'll give you one guess. Don't know? Equine encephalitis. Molenupiravir was developed to treat equine horse encephalitis. Equine encephalitis is endemic, but equine encephalitis is endemic in Southern California. It's to treat encephalitis in horses in 2014. When it didn't work well in horses, they've surfaced it again, and it turns out, and it may have, I don't know if it will

end up having effectiveness against COVID. I don't think anybody does. It's a nucleoside analog, which is a scary class of drugs because it works by inserting a copying error into the genetic code so that the virus inserts a copying error and therefore can't replicate. The problem is that nucleoside analogs are associated with a lot of things like birth defects and the development of cancers because of that copying error. So the jury's out in my mind on molnupiravir. Paxlovid is a retroviral drug

that looks like it could be promising. It's much more similar to the retrovirals that we use for HIV. For HIV and AIDS. There's three different medicines, so it's also gonna prevent the resistance. We have endemic equine encephalitis in the summers here. It's mosquito-borne in people.

Comes out every once in a while, and I'm looking at treatments for it, and it doesn't really mention anything. I haven't seen it in a while and i'm looking at treatments for it and uh it doesn't really mention anything i haven't seen it a long time we actually yeah if you actually if you read if you read up about yeah east if you read up about malnupiravir and how it was developed um it was developed for use and again and my point being this we have many many many medications that cross over between the veterinary world and the human world that's my point uh there are many drugs um you know i have a lot of animals and it's very frequent

for me to be using identical human medications in my animals whether it's dogs cats horses or cattle um it varies lots of drugs have crossover so i just found it amusing that the i-drug was sort of tarred and feathered as a drug that was created for use in animals when Molnupiravir was as well. the I word on the CDC website is required, required for refugees from most countries. If you, if you look at the list of countries, it's really like, it's like about 30 different countries. You are required the moment you hit us soil to take a week of the I word medication. If you have set foot on this soil here, that's the CDC's own website. Not the horse version, the human version. And I used to treat,

I used to work on El Salvadorian refugees and things back in the, when there was a lot of immigration up here from Central America. We used it all the time. It was like, anyway, whatever. All right.

Let me, so my- So that's your point, which is about, I was going to say, that's your point, which is about, as I said, that's your point, which is that you're, you're, that,

that, that you're, that there are lots of, of therapeutics that are out there. And, and I really just think we should be focusing more on those. Yes, yes,

yes. And yes. And I'm going to bring Steve in now, Steve, you can unmute yourself. I think you're already up here with us. And do small, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, do some, here with us um and do small mon ami do some

mon ami if si vous plaît so anything any reaction to our conversation so far um kelly sounds like the kind of doctor that i would love to have as my doctor yes you would i'm sure you would yeah Yeah. That is my impression. She seems to really know what she's talking about. I applaud her for that. What about, before you go on, what about this concern? I know that to be true about Kelly. So you may just be learning that, but that's that your impressions are accurate.

But what about this scandal of lack of distribution of therapeutics? To me, they've given it all to a few pharmacies. I don't understand which pharmacies and why, and to so-called community health centers. I don't even know what that is. And our federal government has bought hundreds of thousands of doses of life-saving medicine and handed it, it sort of vaporized. Do you, Steve, see that as scandalous as I do? So, yeah, of course. But of course, I'm not a big fan of these new drugs that were hastily approved by the

FDA, either one of them, when we have sort of proven treatments that have drugs that have been around for a long time where we understand the long-term consequences of them. But you're correct in terms of, like, I was talking to someone who's a, she's well known. She wanted to have her identity remained uh secret so i won't reveal who she is but she's she's high up there she she sits in on the um the cdc meetings and the fda meetings and so forth and she was telling me off the record like she didn't want her name being used until she goes public on this because she doesn't want to get shot down. She says that what they're doing is criminal. And she was referring to just the monoclonals.

In terms of the distribution. In terms of the distribution. Yeah, that the monoclonals were being withheld. So she's like... Same thing. It's the exact same policy with Paxovich. They're following the exact same sort of pattern with both. And by the way, it's the same way they rolled out the vaccine. This is not new. When I tried to get the vaccine, I couldn't get it for this exact same distribution sort of philosophy. And that's how I got COVID the first time, running around trying to get the vaccine. But Steve, answer me this without, well, let me ask this first. Are you guys both aware of that? You must be. That woman that is suing St. Mary's Hospital or something. She was a physician, COVID treatment. You guys are familiar with this story? I know an awful lot of physicians who are suing hospitals, but I don't know the individual you're talking about. I'll give her a second. No, I don't know the individual you're talking about. I'll get her. No, I don't know either.

All right. Because Mary Talley Bowden, Mary Talley Bowden, because I don't disagree, I don't agree with everything she's doing, but I do, I agree in the strongest terms with the position that she's taking in terms of trying to restore medicine back to the patients and the doctors.

I feel like that has gone way out into some other zone now where hospitals are dictating what doctors do. The CDC is dictating what doctors do. This is not medical practice. I don't recognize the practice of medicine anymore. When people are mandating and shaming people for not getting certain treatments, let's just mention Joe Rogan as one case. Nobody should have an opinion about what Joe does with his doctor. That's between him

and his doctor. Those two make the decision, the doctor and the patient. And the thought that mobs of people feel they're entitled to have an opinion about that is disgusting to me. Steve. Well, of course, you're right. There's no question. This is, I mean, we're seeing all sorts of precedents here that we've never seen before. You go into a pharmacy, you ask for ivermectin.

Don't please, we're going to get kicked off if we use that word. Sorry, sorry. I-word, I-word medicine. Sorry, sorry. Whoops, whoops. It's gone. We're off. Yeah, sorry. Sorry about that. I guess I need to write you a check for the whole class. Sounds good to me. Yeah, so, you know, there are physicians who have been, who have been

prescribing certain drugs and then they find that the pharmacists suddenly no longer will fill those drugs that they filled before. And then they get a letter from the attorney of the doctor. And then all of a sudden, they start to fill the prescription. Again, it's really amazing. They're scared just the way physicians are scared. Listen, I want access to medicines that I know work. I know you're worried about side effects and things.

I, the other day, had a young man who was getting very sick, very fast, and clearly was going to end up in the ICU, couldn't get anything for him. And it's crazy what's happening right now. And this is, I don't know what to do about it. I assume it's going to improve when they start increasing the supply. But I, you know, and I understand what you guys are saying about, you know, using, repurposing guys are saying about, you know, using repurposing things. I still use lots of fluvoxamine, my friend. I still use lots of it.

And I hear people talking about it now as in a, as a proven treatment. Finally, I hear people talking about it and wondering why it's not be used more often, but it's, it's, you know, the guy that I'm talking about that got super sick was on fluvoxamine and I could see it going, I could see the direction it was going. But I wanted some other things. I could not get them. That is, I don't know what to, Kelly, can you think of any time in the practice of medicine that we've been in this situation in America? Have you ever been in this position? Maybe for brief periods of time, certain antibiotics become difficult to get.

What do you say? Oh, Kelly's frozen. I was wondering why she looks so lovely. Sorry. Was it something I said? It might be Steve. Yes, it could be Steve. It might have been that, that, that word that I shouldn't have said. She'll be back. I'll let you answer that, Steve. Cause I, well, let me put this, let me ask this a more broad question for you, which is you're you, like you said like you said, you come from tech, you're an entrepreneur, you really hadn't been involved in the medical space until you decided to dig in, and now you started looking at the way the FDA does business. But have you looked at all that

at medicine, and are you surprised what's happening to medicine the way those of us that have practiced for 30 years are surprised? Yes, in both sense. The people who have been practicing medicine have been surprised by how regimented things are. So it used to be that doctors were allowed to doctor. And now it's doctors are basically told, follow orders from whatever the CDC and the NIH say. And if you don't, you will be fired. Well, and Kelly, but fired is already a new zone for me, for doctors. Fired is already like, what? Fired from what?

Oh, sorry. Well, you'll lose your license too. Yeah. But Kelly, answer me this. I'll let you answer that also. But the fact is that to me, this all started with hospitals mandating clinical pathways. And then once they mandated clinical pathways, they had physician extenders just follow the clinical pathways. So this is sort of the natural extensions of hospitals determining care top to bottom for

patients. I agree with you. It started with that, which clearly was financially motivated. Let's call it what it is. They wanted to make sure that physicians were not unnecessarily, quote, unquote, using medications or treatment protocols that the hospital deemed were too expensive. This is about rationing care. Now, fast forward to COVID. This is unprecedented in my career in medicine and certainly in public health that we have pharmacists and public health officials and politicians getting involved in the sacrosanct relationship between a patient and his or her physician. If people think, for example, that there's widespread consensus on most of medicine, you're wrong. There's no consensus amongst all doctors on when to initiate statin therapy for

someone who's got high cholesterol or whether postmenopausal women should be on hormone replacement or how often you should get a prostate exam. Yet no one gets, you know, we all read the same studies we all read the literature and some of us come to different conclusions yet all of a sudden with covid you either had to stick to this narrative or you were absolutely shut down it is reminiscent honestly drew of nothing and this is not hyperbole it is reminiscent of what happened during the Cultural Revolution in China in the 1960s, where Mao systematically attempted to silence anyone who was perceived as an opposition. And many, many scientists, physicians, teachers were executed or otherwise summarily dismissed. And it's no different from what's happening today. And unfortunately,

a lot of lay people, and you see it all over social media, including just my talking about coming on with you today, people have no tolerance for what we should be having, which is this robust, respectful, vigorous debate about things. That's how we come to the best decisions in medicine. Although, Steve, we went there. We went all the way to Maoism. What say you? Well, you know, it is frightening, the shutdown here and the, you know, centralized control. And there's no questioning. you're not allowed to question right uh what the orders are from above i mean it is hospital administrators who are setting these policies and telling the physicians what's to what to do it's not actually the physicians that are

making these policies the physicians that i've talked to have all said hey it's the administrators uh who are telling us what to do and we have to follow the orders otherwise we lose our hospital privileges or we get reported and have our license taken away and the sad thing is that there's no debate here there's no questioning you're not allowed to question authority anymore right you have you have a president of of this you know, you know, big, you know, leader of the free world, right? And he's got a censorship list. Like, tell me, when in history has a president of the United States had a disinformation dozen censorship list of those who shall not be heard from. I mean, that's ridiculous. McCarthy era.

Yeah, it was done by the other side. She's right. The right did it in the 50s. By the president? Well, censorship. Administration, right? Yeah, the FBI. The point is, it's different, but it's been done and it's been and we all

agreed that was a horrible thing no it wasn't good yeah it was terrible right right this isn't one go ahead okay who's going to see if you and i are in real time and kelly has a slightly little uh delay so you have to kind of bet if she starts talking just kind of back down so go ahead kelly i was gonna say you know what we talked about early on is the reality things change it was just a year and a half ago that i was kicked off twitter for saying that cloth masks don't work uh okay turns out that was true, that that is the case. If you're not willing to tolerate or consider or have the debate, you know, we have a lot of questions in medicine that don't have answers.

We shouldn't have answers that can't be questioned. It really sends you down a very, very bad path. Steve, have you made touch base yet with Vinay Prasad? Do you know that? Yes, I know who Vinay is. I have respect for him because he's actually, you know, he tells the truth about stuff. He doesn't tell the whole truth. Well, no, I will tell you, he doesn't know the whole truth.

None of us know the whole truth. That's the point. He's humble about that. Yeah, yeah. But what he says is right. Right. You know, I've seen him do the myocarditis study and say, hey, you know, these guys did it right. And the other study basically didn't look at all of the cases here. And, you know, so I have a lot of uh respect for him he i will tell you i will tell you he he um i i was a fan of his well before covet hit he had a he had a web he had a podcast i used to listen to and uh he would just review oncological literature and i just thought this guy can read the literature he understands it he understands the landscape he can penetrate it. And so you can rely on him to see the weaknesses in the science. He

actually knows science. He's a scientific mind. And so I really recommend people listen to him, watch him. And he's lately been on the war path a bit, particularly about masks and children, somewhat into vaccine and children territory a bit too. But in terms of just, you know, sort of trying to optimize things, maybe delay the second shot because that reduces the risk of myocarditis. You know, only country in the world that masks under age five is us. And for what end, as Kelly always points out, there's a respiratory virus that just does what it does. And by the way, we take the mask off and sit in a restaurant and eat like walking across the room with the masks magically made that made it work. That's my favorite part. It's just such insanity. It's like you dig in your purse at the door.

Okay, let me put my mask on. You walk three feet and then you pull your mask off and sit down. And the thing to me that's astonishing about all this is that it's worldwide. I mean, I get we're crazy in this country. I understand that. But the fact that the entire world has gone berserk in the exact same way. Somebody's laughing their ass off somewhere. Well, let's look at the places. Look at the places that haven't, though, Drew. If you look at places like Sweden that didn't ever have mask mandates, other than for the first couple of weeks, they did away with that.

They didn't shut down their schools. They did. They did fine. All of the Scandinavian countries, Finland, Sweden, Norway, all of them have put a moratorium on vaccines for anybody under the age of 30. OK, what is it that they know and are willing to look at that we absolutely are not only willing to look at, but may not speak about, can't discuss, can't debate here in the United States that all of Scandinavia has figured out.

And by the way, and Steve, you'll like this one. I'm somewhat sympathetic to this, which is they're trying to limit Moderna in under 15. I'm sure you have an opinion about that. That's good. Well, yeah. Am I even allowed to comment on that? No, I'll probably agree with you. If I agree with you, it's okay. You can talk. Okay. So you can talk. Susan says yes. Okay. Really? Yeah. Well, certainly my position is that looking at the data, that the vaccines would not be safe for that age group. So, and I don't think I could say anything more without your being censored. Now, if a parent wants to give it to their son or daughter under 15, go ahead.

If the child wants it, if you want it, if you think that's okay, talk to your pediatrician. They do it together. But to mandate it is... Well, I think... Moderna particularly has got some problems. Well, I have issues the other way around, too. But certainly to mandate it is absolutely insane. You're talking about kids who just basically never get sick.

And if you're looking at the risk-benefit analysis, Dr. Toby Rogers did a risk benefit analysis on age 5 to 11, for example, and he found that we kill 117 kids for every kid that we might save from COVID. So it's absolutely stupid to say we're going to mandate this. I mean, that's basically said that is basically killing people. Well, and they were not alone in mandating australia's mandating france is mandating i mean there's lots of mandates that we are covid anyways yeah well that's because they they follow they follow our lead just like they followed our lead on on masking and kelly is absolutely right on masking cloth masks you know there are only two randomized trials that were done for covid and mass and uh so the two trials are one one was done in denmark and the other one was done in bangladesh and both of them

showed that that these the cloth mass and the surgical mass do absolutely nothing nothing to you know like the bangladesh study was was amazing I mean, we, we, we requested the, the data set on that and it's identical for the no mask versus a, a, a purple, I think it was a purple cloth mask. Yeah. If I, you're right, that's true. But if I, what I find amusing about the Denmark study, I haven't talked about this in a while, but there was great anticipation because finally we're going to get high-quality randomized control study. And then when it didn't show anything, no one would publish it.

And finally, Annals of Internal Medicine published it. And it did show, it seemed to be fair, it showed a 20% effect. No, no, no, no, no, Drew. They changed the result. They couldn't get it published. There was a BMJ article, op-ed about this, where they said, hey, you know, it showed negative, nobody would publish it. So they required them to change the study so that the results would support the narrative. I mean,

you're looking at the corruption of science here big time. Everybody knows that cloth masks don't work. Everybody knows that surgical masks don't work. The only thing that really works is a P100 respirator, which I just bought for myself. And believe me, nobody's going to want to wear that. I mean, you will have riots in the streets if they try to mandate people wearing these P100 respirators. Yes, I agree with you about the distortion of science. And Kelly has said it in no uncertain terms that the discourse around science has been adulterated. But why is your world, why is the tech world the perpetrator of so much of this? What's going on up there?

Well, Drew, the reason for this, and I've talked to some people who know stuff that I don't know, is that Jack Dorsey gets a secret phone call from the government saying, Mr. Dorsey, for the national interest, we need Twitter to make sure that you crush any misinformation. Will you do that for us, sir? And he says, yes, sir, I want to be a good, loyal citizen. And so these people are being instructed what to do by the government. And so they're all suppressing it because their CEOs are being good guys and listening to these voices from the government. Aren't these the guys that want to be autonomous and independent and thinking for themselves? This is the basis of our lawsuit. This is the basis of our lawsuit this is the basis of our lawsuit uh the class action

lawsuit against these guys drew it's exactly that collusion and that's what it is steve well you have a you have a witness government you can this is why you can quote today's today's stream you have a witness and steve and this is exactly this is exactly the basis of the class action lawsuit because the federal government cannot collude with a quote private company to do that which it is not legal for it to do itself in other words censor american citizens and there's no question that this has been going on jen saki stood up and said it herself at the podium she said we are working with facebook and twitter to identify those people who are spreading misinformation uh so when the federal government is now trying to use these

social media platforms as the strong arm uh to exact this type of censorship it's not constitutional and it's not legal and i hope your attorneys are listening today's's show. Steve, thank you. I'm going to let you go. I got to take a few more calls. Are you any closing comment? I got to stop for a little break too. I'll give you a last word and thank you. And thank you for controlling yourself today. You've been, this has been your best outing as a matter of fact. This has been good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. We like it when you don't yell at us. Yeah, okay. All right, cool. So I had a question for Kelly. On the 6 to 60 study, you mentioned that was Brown. I think it was MIT and it was done in April.

Is that correct? I think it was MIT who did it, the 6 feet versus 60. I think it was MIT. You're correct. I knew it was somebody out there in the East Coast. You're correct. And what I was going to say about the cloth masks is incidentally, Duke University did a study that looks to make, to make the argument that cloth masks actually make it worse. The Duke University study done

in August of 2020 looked at cloth masks and showed that they actually took large respiratory droplets and ended up aerosolizing them into zillions of smaller droplets, therefore spread further. Not only do they not work, they actually make it worse. You are likely to spread more respiratory virus. If you go back about a year and a half on these streams, you'll see me interviewing a woman who is an environmental engineer who was making that point 18 months ago. She was very concerned about that.

She's actually worried about it with the surgical mask too. But all right, we've got to take a little break here. Steve Kirsch, thank you. I'm going to put you on hold or send you back to the audience. And we'll be back with Kelly Victory and your calls right after this. I want to give a shout out to our good friends at Blue Mics. If you've heard my voice on this show anytime over the past year, including right now, you've been listening to blue microphones. And let me tell you, after more than 30 years in broadcasting, I don't think I have ever sounded better. But you don't need to be a pro or have a fancy studio to benefit from a quality mic. You may not realize it, but if you've been working from home or using Zoom to chat with friends, you probably spend a lot of time in front of a microphone.

So why not sound your best? Whether you're doing video conferencing, podcasting, recording music, or hosting a talk show, Blue has you covered. From the USB series that plugs right into your computer to XLR professional mics like the Mouse or the Blueberry we use in the studio right now, bottom line, there's a Blue microphone to fit your budget and need. I can't say enough about Blue mics, and once you try one, you will never go back. Trust me to take your audio to the next level. Go to drdrew.com slash blue. That is drdrew.com slash B L U E. And we're back with our friend Kelly Victory, a master's of public health

from Harvard university, as well as a ER and a primary care doctor. Susan, you want to talk about these things before I go back? My little mini you are a primary care doctor. Susan, you want to talk about these things before I go back to Kelly? My little mini you, our little mini you. Everybody needs to get their bobblehead. This is Susan's project, Kelly. We've got to send one to Kelly. Do not tell your husband about this.

I want Kelly to put one on her bookshelf behind her. That would go right next to Yorick. Go to drdrew.com. Drdrew.com slash shop and great. Just in time for Valentine's day. And remind you of the book that my daughter and I wrote. It doesn't have to be awkward. Kayla, I know I'm springing this on you,

but if you could throw that up there also. We didn't prepare them or anything. There it is. Oh, my daughter's calling me right at this moment. That's a coincidence. She right here is me talking about it. Kelly, I found myself obsessed with this material. This is another book I'm watching. This is old Gustave Le Bon talking about the behavior of crowds.

And he was under attack for many years. I always thought it was an interesting book, but I noticed for about 10 years under attack. If you read it now, it is uncanny how accurate it is to the present moment and he's talking about the french revolution in the 19th century he's trying to understand what happened and he lots of injunctions like if you don't think this can happen it can be careful we group thing right and again he made an interesting point he says it can go good also you can have people really gather together for good. It's possible, but it's unusual. It doesn't happen. And usually it's bad in the name of thinking you're doing good. But go ahead, Kelly. No, I think I've spent a lot of time talking about this idea of mass formation psychosis,

which is actually sort of the new version of mob mentality. We've always known that the mob has the potential to do and act in ways, generally negative, generally bad ways, in ways that an individual by themselves would not act. People get the anonymity of the mob and therefore are able to act with impunity against others. Social media, I think, has only made that worse because there's so much anonymity. You and I happen to be out there on social media with our actual names. I use this very punchy name at Dr. Kelly Victory. People know exactly who I am, as opposed to, you know, Gypsy Skittlesate or some, you know, some made up name where you they have the, you know, anonympsy Skittlestate or some, you know, some made-up name where they have the,

you know, anonymity behind them and therefore feel that they can say things that are just vile because they're not tied to the individual. When you then act that out in a mass way, I mean, let's face it, we saw it in Germany during the Third Reich. It's what happened during the war and the atrocities against the Jews, when people were able to identify, coalesce against a villain or who they were led to believe was the particular villain. And here during COVID, it began with us coalescing around the idea of a virus, a microscopic, you know, invisible foe. But very quickly, the narrative was changed to drive a wedge and make it an us versus them,

whether it was mask wearers versus non-mask wearers, people who are pro-lockdown versus not pro-lockdown, vaccinated versus non-vaccinated. And it's a very dangerous place to be. There's no question that it can be turned for good, but in general, that's not the way these things go. That's his point, very much so. I want to introduce you to Keith.

Keith is still here, good. Who was the gentleman I mentioned that went on the pursuit of Paxlovid. Hi, Keith, welcome back. Greetings. Sounds like he's landing a airplane coming in so what's going on do you have an update for us just wanted to say mom-in-law is doing great on day four for paxlovid regimen for her covid by the way she's not my grandma how dare you drew oh no no i said mother-in-law i said mother-in-law i heard grandma earlier but that's cool we forgive you um her name is janice she loved the show yesterday she says hi no more fever no more

headache no more sore throat no more no more runny nose so tell it again to how you figured out where to go because i still i even i couldn't stay with your your your tail So you first went to the CDC, you went to which website? Uh, I followed a link in an NPR article to, uh, healthdata.gov, which has the national, uh, distribution of the therapeutics. It included Paxlovid as well as, uh, Ciprovimab and, um, the, uh and the other. The other monoclonals, yeah. Yeah. And then from there, I was able to crunch some data and figure out where all it got distributed to. But I have to say, that was not how I found the medicine to be able to fill mother-in-law's prescription. What I had was a hint from her doctor.

You might check this town about an hour away from us. I heard one of my patients got it. Right. I forgot about that piece. What was your mother-in-law's name again? Say it. Her name's Janice. Janice Joplin would be.

So Janice, I just want to say hi to her and I'm glad you're feeling better, but you have quite a son-in-law there. So congratulations on that. I want we should be using him as a advocate for patient therapeutics. I would love to help you, Drew, draw attention to and resolve this bungled distribution of COVID therapeutics in California. I would really love to do that. Find out what they mean by community health centers. I still don't know what that means. That was my term based on what some of the titles were. I think Dr. Kelly's

trying to say something. Well, I just was going to say, good for you, Keith. First of all, why should you have to be super sleuth in order to get access to medications to treat this i mean you know good for you for for being able to do that but everyone shouldn't have to have their own personal sort of health care zealot who's out there you know exactly what i was saying yesterday dr yeah dr victory yeah yeah nobody should have to have a son-in-law who's willing to drive an hour into the foothills and have the secret knock and handshake to be able to get the medicine almost like it's contraband. Yeah, Jack Alley drug deal. Instead of free COVID tests, send us the treatment for it. We all need a free, like three pills in our glove box.

Well, that's correct. We're nowhere near that, but be that as it may, and let us know too also if she developed any side effects, because Kelly and Steve are not fans of the novel or the new, yeah, you heard them, and I'm very much, that's always the way I practice. Once I understand something, I'm willing to. But let me, again, that's not,'s not it's that's not really not a fair assessment okay i don't want to characterize you wrong go ahead no it's not it's not that i'm not a fan of it it's that i prefer to have more safety data i am all about innovation and health

care um but i think that we we need to put the time into it particularly when there are other options you know what's interesting kelly is one of the things this whole experiment experience did that we need to put the time into it, particularly when there are other options. You know, what's interesting, Kelly, is one of the things this whole experience did to me was made me look at my own biases and sort of preferences, I guess you'd call it. And one of my biases is I have an optimism bias. I want people to be optimistic. When people get panicky and negative, I don't want any of it. I want to keep doing, and that's how I get in trouble. Right. So that's one way.

And the other thing I do is I look across my career, and when you get, I think this may be a phenomenon from my years in the psychiatric hospital. Psych meds, when there are advances, they jump on them. They start using them right away because, you know, because there's not our, you know, our pharmacotherapies aren't that great many times. And so when there's an advance, we start applying them right away. So I've had a bias throughout my career of, I kind of jump on stuff when it comes out. If, if I read the literature and I think I can understand it and I think I don't i don't anticipate down the road trouble i will do that that's my bias and i bet your bias is different i bet you're more cautious with stuff well i i think it's it's a different bias for sure number one i certainly take the ad you know the adage uh or the dictum uh first do no harm very very

careful you know um because i think that we can end up giving somebody something with a lack of safety data behind it and then regret that of course but as an emergency as a trauma specialist I'm sort of the opposite I assume the worst my job is to assume that this person's gonna die my job is to assume that this is a really bad thing that's about to happen and then prove myself wrong. So I always have to assume that the drug is going to have the worst possible side effects. And until I have enough safety data behind it. And again, when it comes same thing, that's my viewpoint about the vaccines.

I'm not anti-vaccine i just would like to see the 36 month 48 month safety data behind these before i start suggesting for example that children you know five-year-olds and 11-year-olds who have essentially a zero risk from covid um start experimenting with these vaccines so i just want more safety data behind it uh before i'm hoisting it on the public. And let's be clear. We're not, I mean, zero, we're speaking hyperbolically. And of course, Omicron, there's been a little bump up in pediatric cases, but it's still a very small, very rare phenomenon that a child ends up in the hospital. But I mean, not that it doesn't.

They'll report it. They'll make sure we all know about it. Everybody else knows. So we all go, oh, no, no. And it's interesting, Kelly, that even though I have this sort of aggressive posture of using new therapeutics, I'm always prepared to blame medication for everything that happens to a patient. That's always my first go-to. Patients on meds and sick, got to be the meds. Well, let me throw this out there. I was talking about this with a group of health care practitioners.

I said I spoke to last night. If you want, if I were at the helm or I had a chance to speak with Anthony Fauci or somebody else who's really pushing the vaccines initiative hard, I would say if you want to get everyone vaccinated in the United States, you know, one huge step that would do that if you wanted to get 100% of people vaccinated, drop the liability protection. Tell the vaccine manufacturers, if you are saying these are safe and effective, you want to stand by, they're safe, they're safe. Remove the liability protection. Tell people if you have an adverse event, we'll pay you the millions of dollars. And you know what, Drew? They won't do it. And that should make people question. If somebody's going to tell you, I guarantee you this is safe. It's absolutely safe. I don't want to have any liability, but I promise you it's safe. That doesn't pass the sniff test. It just doesn't.

Jennifer, I'm trying to bring you up to the podium here. Jennifer Wild. Her handle there is Sober Exposure. So thanks, Marriott, for all the super chats. Oh, yeah, Marriott. I've been trying to pay attention to you as you go by there. Thank you. We appreciate it.

I don't know that. I don't know if we'll ever get the money, but we appreciate it. Jennifer's going to come up. Oh, wait, wait wait wait wait there she is hi you guys i'm so sorry all right what's going on there pleasure pleasure's ours hi you guys we're good thank you so much for having me on i'm honored and actually dr drew i met you in miami at a radio station because i'm an ex radio personality and i grabbed you in the hall and i station because I'm an ex-radio personality. And I grabbed you in the hall and I was like, I was like stalking you. This was, God knows, over 12 years ago.

I thought I remembered your name. That's why I was like, I think I know Jennifer. So, okay. Well, good to see you again. Yes. Yes. Good to see you too. We spoke and I was like struggling. And I have a podcast now that is about recovery.

And this is totally off subject of what you guys were talking about, but I'm just really curious because I don't know where you stand with this. And I don't know if it's even appropriate for this room. Go ahead. But where do you stand with all the psychedelics and recovery now

and the microdosing with the mushrooms and all of that. I take a sort of a simple attitude, and I'm going to modify it as I take it. My simple position is we don't know yet. We do not have the data. We have data really on one psychedelic, and that is on ecstasy in the setting of complex trauma, in good hands, it works. We know that. Everything else, we do not have the science.

Now, so I can't make any recommendation on that. I do believe there will be more breakthroughs with psychedelics. I do believe that things will come. But until then, the risks are vastly higher than the rewards, as far as I can tell. And I've seen lots of problems. Believe me, across my career, I've seen more than you can imagine. So that scares me on one hand. On the other, but let me just say one caveat under that, which is that I have seen people go down, really desperate people, people who

have failed everything with complex personality problems. Which is me, pretty much. I'll be candid, me. Well, no, no. But anyway, okay. But I've seen them go down and do ayahuasca and other things and have a positive result. I've seen that happen. I've also seen people have no result, bad result, temporary result, personality changes, mood changes. I've seen lots of adverse stuff happen. I've also seen people have no result, bad result, temporary result, personality

changes, mood changes. I've seen lots of adverse stuff happen. So again, I can't recommend it in any, you know, real way yet. So that's my basic position. We don't know, but I'm expecting breakthroughs, expecting breakthroughs. I feel not like anyone's asking for my opinion, but I see it as really, you know, something that could be great for the future. But got to be careful when it's in an addict's hands. Oh, boy. Because we tend to not use things therapeutically. Hence, when I got my beautiful facelift, the Percocet, you know what I'm saying?

So it could be great, but in the right hands. Thank you so much. All right, Jennifer. I'm definitely not complete, but I'm done speaking. Okay. Thank you for coming up. I had some coding today. Yeah. You're proud of yourself? I had a laser treatment on my chest and they gave me, they gave me, she's high on it right now, evidently. No, I took a nap. I'm fine now.

Oh man, I could be an addict. I felt so good. I was texting everybody. I was so happy. Oh boy. And I thought, this is great. That is not what you call a good sign. And then I got, but then I got home and I got really tired and had to take a nap. So I said, nah, I don't want to be a drug addict. Okay, big hurt, big hurt. What's going on? Dr. Drew, thank you. Listened to you for many years and thanks for having me on.

You bet. The disparity and the discrepancy between how big blue cities and blue states and red states and cities have handled the various restrictions and mandates. I mean, I live in Seattle and it's been pretty restrictive and pretty. It's been a tough two years. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I just wanted to get your take on what's the what's the explanation between how they can think that the virus doesn't cross borders? I mean, you know, with 45 other states with no mask mandate, what is the impetus for keeping this going? What's the end game for these blue states? And let me just tell you that

a friend of mine, I did a nightly news broadcast locally here in Los Angeles with a guy named Alex Michelson, a very smart journalist. And I just saw him, I gave him a rash of, well, I didn't give him, I supported him, talking to Mark Galley, who's the head of the California Public Health Service here. And he was like, what are the criteria? What are you doing? What is the end point? Right, right. No answer. There's no answer. There's no answer. And that's not medicine. And when I saw him doing

that, I thought, oh, this guy, I don't think he's ever practiced medicine. I don't know what he's doing. I don't know what this is or what guides his decision making. But Kelly, go ahead. That's exactly right. No, that's exactly the point. And you're pointing out we have real world data from the United States. We can look. We don't need models right now. We have real world data from the United States. We can look. We don't need models right now. We have real world data that will prove whether or not masking, social distancing, lockdowns, you know, limitations on the capacity at bars and restaurants is going to make any difference whatsoever. And the reality, although people don't want to acknowledge it, is that those mitigation schemes have

not worked. We know the places with the most restrictions have not done better than the places that have no restrictions. We know that California and the Northeast has done abysmally compared to places like Texas or Tennessee or Florida that largely did away with those mandates. We know the same thing from around the globe. We just were talking about places like Sweden that didn't lock down, didn't have mask mandates, didn't close their schools, and incidentally didn't leave a smoldering crater where their economies used to be.

Right. And Drew talks about the cognitive dissonance of me of it all it's like what how can they how can they again with all with 45 other states in america you know not having that mandate do they do they really think that the virus just stops at the border of washington and california and oregon like i don't understand how they can keep it going based on like i would i would be generous to say that they're just very cautious and trying to do their best to help people were were it not is your name hurt is that actually your name or what is your name uh jason jason were it not jason for the level of atrocious disgusting incompetence that they displayed along the way. Not in letting people go outdoors, cementing over playgrounds and putting soldering metal

bars on basketball courts, not letting people on horse trails, closing beaches, police tape on the beaches. And then when they open the beaches, you can go up, but you can't lie down. You can't lie down. You have to stand up. That is disgusting incompetence. We should be calling it out. It has been an absolute display of abject incompetence all the way. Were it not for that, I could be generous to them and say they're just trying to help.

They're just doing their thing. They don't know. They do know. And they've been incompetent all the way. And I can't understand why people don't call that out. And I don't know about Washington, but in California, it's been just disgusting. Washington is just as bad, if not worse than California. I mean, we have some of the strictest mandates. I mean, our governor has, again, like you said, no, there's no timetable ending this like it's. And you see people, like you said, about the line down the beach. We see I see people routinely here walking around outside with their masks on.

That's weird. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I see that now, too. I went out. She wanted me to join her for lunch on Sunday and I went out there and everybody outside. I thought I can't be here. This is this is this is weird. I don't want to be around. These people are making me angry. They're outdoors walking in the bright open spaces where the virus does not. And then they give you that, you know, you know, it was too much. Yes. Drew, what I liken this to... Go ahead, Kelly, and then I'll get Jason. Go ahead, Kelly.

What I was going to say is, I liken it to a baby in swaddling. You know how an infant, you wrap it very, very tightly in swaddling. It no longer has use of its own arms and legs. It no longer has any autonomy, yet it feels secure. Masks, social distancing, all of it has become swaddling for the masses. It's very, very dangerous. People have all of a sudden feel better.

They feel they like having the masks. We have people here advocating for them in Colorado saying, please, we really think we still need mask mandates. I'm asking for them to come back. They want the swaddling. And by the way, did you see these college kids mandating more masks, more lockdowns? Like you, you're triple vaxxed, you're triple vaxxed. You're going to be fine. What have we, what have we done to these kids? Go ahead, Jason. Drew, it's this weird, it's this weird mix of virtue signaling. You and Adam have talked about this many times. What is attractive about being told what to do by the government? Yeah, I don't understand that. I'm even more mystified by people who want to be in the government and tell people

how to live their lives. That's even more mystifying to me. That would be so uncomfortable to me to be telling people how they should live. You know, mandating behavior is where I, and by the way, no science for me to base it on. I just sort of capricious, don't lie down on the beach. I don't want to see you lying down on the beach. You know, and by the way, the reporters out there watching people individually walking around on the beach going, what do we do if they lie down? What do we do? There are people on the beach. You have to go tell them to stand up. Journalists, you should examine the reporting you did back then, too.

You were equally duplicitous. It was tough. You were a big part of the whole mess. I mean, how I got myself in trouble was telling people not to listen to the press. Don't get panicked. I missed the infectivity. I miss the cytokine storm. And for that, I apologize.

But I was absolutely right about the panic. It is the thing that the press brought upon us that is causing unbelievable amount of harm to Americans. Unbelievable. So, Drew, one last comment comment that i'll let you go so uh how would you compare this to like the hysterias that we've seen in the past with like the satanic panic in the 80s the even even like the salem witch i was like what's how i'm holding up a book my friend i'm holding up a book i suggest you read it it's called the crowd a study of the pop their mind by gustav the author on here the author has been dead for 150 years. Oh, never mind. It was originally... You can tell I haven't read it.

Let me see when... I think it has. I think he wrote it in the 19th century. So maybe not. Maybe he's... Let me see. When did he write it originally?

It certainly sounds like he's writing in the 19th century when I read it. Yeah, I think it's in the public domain because there's like 15 different cover versions of it. Yeah, yeah. It's like the 1820 or something he tried to figure.

He was trying to figure out what happened during the French Revolution. And you'll be stunned. You'll be stunned at how familiar what he's talking about is. You'll be stunned. I can't get enough of it. History precedes itself. Humans are humans, and we behave certain ways and certain conditions. You know, why now?

And what led us here? And people just pay attention to your own participation in all this. I, I, I keep asking myself, I mean, I want to think that everybody in Pasadena who has a mask on, and I'm telling you, everybody on the street had one on, um, hasn't had COVID. If, if that's the truth, I'll be, i'll be shocked because omicron no i think every city yeah oh i don't susan i don't think there are people who that who haven't had uh covet i think people have just been lulled into this belief that somehow they are protected from something i was watching the other day a newscast out of new york where it apparently was pretty

cold and they're all wearing these n95 now and as they're wearing their n95s i'm watching the other day yeah a newscast out of new york where it apparently was pretty cold and they're all wearing these n95 now and as they're wearing their n95s i'm watching the vapor huffing around their face are you not are you not tying connect the dots people connect i like the mask in new york because it keeps your face warm let's say that again funny so what she saw was was the breath steam coming out around the around the mask, which floats over to the other person. It's like, that's of course what's happening with these things. You aren't breathing through the mask. You're breathing over the top, around the sides. I'm watching all of these New Yorkers bustling down the road in these very cold temperatures going, connect the dots, people.

Connect the dots, please, connect the dots, please. I can't get them any closer. Kelly, we've not yet discussed the tennis star's name. I always keep screwing up. Novak Djokovic. What is your opinion about that? Well, I think it's absolutely insane. This is the reality. Novak Djokovic has already had COVID. He can prove it. He has positive antibodies. So he's unvaccinated and they have kicked him out. They've revoked his visa. He was first in lockdown. He's essentially put on house arrest. They took his visa and his passport and his wallet and kept him in a hotel while they debated this out, they have now summarily dismissed him. They've thrown him out of the country because he's not vaccinated. First of all, tennis, by its very

definition, you're socially distanced. It's not like, you know, he wasn't wrestling. He wasn't up close and personal with somebody. By its very nature, tennis is one of those games where you're not in somebody else's face. But the reality is this. It defies the logic. We know that vaccinated or not, and it is irrefutable, you can get COVID and you can spread it. There is no difference in the amount of virus in your nose and throats whether you're vaccinated or not when you get COVID. We know that from the big study out of UC Davis. I'm going to push back a little bit on that and say, I'm of the opinion that you're correct about the viral density,

but I really feel like the people that are vaccinated produce virus for a shorter period of time. So there is a temporal benefit to being vaccinated, whether it's worth it or not is a whole other question. There's no study that shows that. You're right. It's my sense of it. You're right. There's no study. And so all I'm saying is that the idea that you are robbing someone, let's, you know, very clear whether you follow tennis or not, Djokovic and Federer and Nadal are tied for men's singles, the most grand slams in men's singles.

This is a huge issue. This is a huge trophy, if you will, a huge badge of honor. And the idea that he has been kicked out and not allowed to compete and whether or not he'll be allowed to compete in France in the French Open, I think, is largely in question as well. Well, it's why it's why I got vaccinated. I got vaccinated to be able to move around the European continent. I wanted to go. Now you're going to do it again. And I may have to do it again.

You know what happened to me, Kelly? Are they going to allow serum tests? You know what's interesting? I've been seeing some, you know, kind of, we're all seeing the data on the vaccine. And I started looking at it going, I don't know. I had COVID. I've had Johnson & Johnson. I had a terrible reaction to J&J. I probably am better off just getting Omicron. And boom, then I got it. We don't have it documented.

But it still may not be enough for me to... You didn't get your papers, Drew. Right. I may not have my papers to move about. I think that's why they need to back off on these ridiculous requirements, because the mandates no longer make sense. The mandates no longer. It's one thing early on when you could have made the argument that if, in fact, these vaccines, experimental as they are, if, in fact, they stopped people from contracting and spreading the virus, then you could have made at least a compelling argument that there was a reason to mandate them. Now that we know, and the CDC, FDA, and all the vaccine manufacturers acknowledge that they don't stop you from contracting it, and they don't stop you from spreading it, there simply is no rationale for a mandate

to be in place. If you choose to be vaccinated, that I respect that choice always, but it should be done with a very thoughtful risk-benefit analysis. And I think the idea that we are mandating these really defies logic. Somebody, Nom Nom writes, the level of vaccine anti-SIGG at 134 days after second dose

decreased to the level found in 220-day unvaccinated COVID convalescent. Just again, making our point. But all right. So we're not going to, I don't know how to wrap this up because it's, you know, we could just kind of keep spinning about this. Bitching for hours, yeah. Yeah, and we've gone well over the time interval. And by the way, Jason, thank you for coming up and talking with us. As always, Kelly, it's great to see you. We missed you.

Great to talk to you. We missed you. Hopefully we'll still be on YouTube after all this. We will. People seem to appreciate just. If not, we're on Rumble, Twitch, Twitter, and Facebook. But people appreciate just conversations. By the way, I'm going to bet just our conversation today, if anybody's vaccine hesitant, listen to this conversation and see if you aren't a little more likely to go towards the vaccine if it's important for you to get vaccinated and you're in a risk category. Hearing all the discourse should help you make that decision for yourself. Go ahead,

Kelly. And I was going to say, I would submit to you that everything we've talked about here, this isn't tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff. You know, I'm not suggesting that, oh, don't get vaccinated because there are nano chips in it and you're going to get followed by Martians and the government's trying to track you. I mean, this is we're we're having. Oh, no, you just said that. No, we're going to get. No, what I'm saying is no.

We're having a reasonable debate. Peter Atiyah talked to somebody. Yeah, he talked to somebody about I forget who was talking about vaccine therapies and he got taken down. And I was like, oh, my God, just just to have conversation. And we really didn't get and we really didn't today get into we really didn't get into the data on you know there's some data out there and it's concerning i like looking back at history and calling out it's still though if you were in a risk if you're over 70 and you have any comorbidity you should be getting vaccinated that's just right you should

be getting your vaccine well what about okay i have a question thinking about it very hard i have a question doctors yes ma'am doctors drew and kelly i want to know if i haven't been vaccinated and now that you know we're finding that the delta vaccination may not work for omicron should i just wait for the omicron to come out oh interesting question so kelly you answer first well here's my answer and that's i'm glad you asked that sus, because I would say I have a hard time making any rational argument for somebody right now to get vaccinated, given where we are and given that these vaccines, they have outlived their usefulness. variants that they were predicated on no longer exist. The Wuhan strain, the alpha strain, the Delta strains largely burned out. And these vaccines do not have, there's some, but the vaccines are very, have less than 32% effectiveness against Delta. So what I would say is, and given what we know now about therapeutics, the combination of those things, unless you are in a very, very high risk category, I personally can't make a compelling argument. I also have to add in there, Drew, as you kind of alluded to it, the concerning number of adverse events that are being tied to the vaccine.

We didn't talk about them, but they are out there. And so I think the combination, the constellation of all those things together, Susan, I would say that at this point, unless you're a very high risk category, I personally would suggest that people hold off. Well, you're going to have to get it. I prefer we not make broad recommendations with focus on Susan. I'm just so I would listen to Kelly and say, oh, wait, I'd rather get it than get a shot that's not going to help me anyway. So you're, well, okay.

And so. But I did. I got the booster. So. Yeah. So you're triple vaxxed. You're in your sixties. You're a no risk category.

Yeah. You've done well. You didn't have to tell everybody that. You've had. I'm proud of that. You're in good company. You're in no risk category. No. You've done well. You didn't have to tell everybody that. You've had, I'm proud of that. You're in good company. You're in good company. I didn't die. Yeah.

You've had, you've had Omicron. So an Omicron booster doesn't really make much sense. If you hadn't had Omicron, I would even kind of come down with Kelly. I'd say work with your doctor, you know, obviously. Right. But I would even come down with Kelly and say, you know, Ocrana is so mild as you found out it was mild. If you were to get it, it's like, nah, you're triple vaxxed. You're already double vaxxed or whatever. Well, if I got the flu this year, I wouldn't get the flu shot next week.

Like if I just had the flu, I wouldn't run out. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Right. And it's so mild. I would argue that there, i would argue there may be more reason to do that than to rush and get a covid vaccine because well because there's a whole range of flu out there different one yeah and the last thing i will say before before i got a run here drew is that we should be celebrating the things like the fact that, wow, Omicron is way more contagious, but great news, folks. It's really very, very mild. That's awesome. Let's celebrate the fact that even though kids seem to be getting, their kids do get Omicron, great news. They aren't ending up in the hospital. They aren't ending up. Omicron, we know, has no affinity for lung tissue, which makes it very different

from the previous variants. Omicron stays in the upper airways, so you don't end up with the inflammation of the lungs, and people don't end up short of breath and, you know, with oxygen issues, and they don't end up on ventilators. Let's celebrate those things and stop the constant negative, negative, negative negative why aren't we wearing masks why aren't people getting vaccinated let's move with this with this you know with this virus the negativity makes me crazy i i love we should be celebrating things now there may be more mutations ahead i understand that but the vaccine needs to catch up to the mutation. So let's put the effort to make the right vaccines for everybody. We can't predict coronavirus.

But, you know, there's some countries, they're just getting their first vaccination. Like I know a guy in Sri Lanka and they just got one so far. So, of course, send all those great vaccines over there to these people that are waiting for it. Correct. And let's move on to the next. And we're doing, we should be celebrating that we've had a mild, and there's a much more broadspread natural immunity available to us. And we have these great therapeutics. Yeah, let's get those out on the shelves.

Monoclonal antibodies, which I took and kept me out of the hospital. Paxlovid, Molipurivir, we have all these things. We should be celebrating the fact that this thing is in hand. Even if there is a nasty variant that comes along, we have good therapeutics now. So let's stay positive, everybody. And also, I want to say one more thing that I found in common. I went to this doctor's office today and the doctor got it. She got it.

And she was sick for like three or four days, five days, taking the COVID test every day, nothing, nothing, nothing. Her whole family was testing positive. And then she had to come back to work and then they gave her PCR and she was positive. So if you get a runny nose, you get sick, you're not going to know it for like three days in. Because I took my test three days in, Drew missed the window. And the thing about this virus is it, it spreads because we don't think we have it. And you know, you can't get a runny nose without worrying about it,

but you need to worry about it. If you're really going to have to worry about it. I mean, you shouldn't worry about it because it wasn't that big of a deal. The Oxycontin talking. No, I, so I don't,

yeah. So, cause I'm not following you, but anyway. Here's what I'm trying to say is that you might get it and you might spread it, but don't feel bad about it. Oh no, you should be careful. We should be careful with any old infectious disease. You just gave somebody herpes. Hey Kelly, if you would send us,

Steve Kirsch wants the reference on that mask causing harm study you mentioned i think it was a duke study absolutely if you could send that to us we'd appreciate it now and i'll send it to you on the duke's day absolutely and if people want yeah i will i will send it to you also if people want to get any of the studies that i'm talking about earlycovidcare.org um at the website that i'm associated with. We sell nothing there. We make no money. It's simply a repository for a lot of great resources. Earlycovidcare.org not only has all of the early treatment protocols, but it has hundreds and hundreds,

over 400 articles, not only backing up those treatment protocols, but also has many, many articles on the harms of mask wearing and issues around things like social distancing. Really looks at the science, looks at the studies that are out there, including that Duke University study. Earlycovidcare.org. Dot org. Yep. Thanks, Kelly. We'll talk soon, no doubt. Hey. Take care. Great to see you guys. Thanks for having me. Yep. Okay. Thanks, Kelly. We'll talk soon. No doubt. Hey,

take care. Great to see you guys. Thanks for having me. You as well. Bye-bye. All right, man. Dr.

Kelly victory. Uh, you can find her Susan. We, we have a, you have a specific, a Caleb where she can be tracked down to people other than that early COVID care.

Dr. Kelly victory on Twitter. All right. That's the best place. Uh, thank you all for being here. Thank you all for, I see many hands up, and I'm sorry, we're going to kind of wrap this thing up.

We'll be back again tomorrow. Oh, no, day after tomorrow. Back again on Thursday. We have a really interesting kind of guest coming in on Thursday. I don't know if you remember the comedian, Yakov Smirnoff, but he had always, he's now a psychologist,

and he has some really interesting observations about big political trends and things. He actually lived in Russia for a long time under some nasty circumstances, and he has some very interesting stories. I always enjoy talking to him. He'll be with us at three o'clock next, on Thursday, day after tomorrow.

Thank you, Caleb, for producing. Thank you, Michelle, for booking. Thank you, Michelle, for booking. And Susan, well done. You just called me out for my brain today. That was comedy. I was trying to get a point across. Listen, you are a... We thought we had a runny nose,

even though you had a hoarse voice for three days. If you want to see what a star Susan is on podcast, you can head on over to Dr. Drew After Dark and see Susan is on podcast. You can head on over to Dr. Drew After Dark and see Susan in full bloom. That's where she was my guest on that podcast, which is a very different kind of thing. Thank you for all your kind words for

supporting me in it because I'm very nervous about doing that show. Yes, me too. I'm ending the room at Clubhouse. Thank you guys for having been there. We've got to wrap this thing up. Get your bobblehead, drdrew.com. Thank you to all of you watching, all of you at Restream. Thank you guys for having been there. We've got to wrap this thing up. Get your bobblehead, drdrew.com slash shop. And thank you to all of you watching,

all of you at Restream. I've been trying diligently to keep up with you guys. You're on fire there. Yes, Mike, the brain fog does linger. I was able to get over the brain fog with two things. I had bad brain fog after Alpha. I had a few days of it

after Omicron and very characteristic symptoms went away fast. With Omicron though, I took fluvoxamine. It helped resolve it. And I started working really hard on languages because I had a sense that working my brain would help decrease the fog. It did. So using your brain, if you remember, we had the olfactory, the scent lady, S-C-E-N-T, who was telling us that she had olfactory workarounds to bring people's sense of smell back as well.

So these things do recover, but it seems like your brain has to kind of in, you have to help it with its plasticity to get the fog to fully lift. Attack helicopter. Thanks for the super chat. Thank you to all of you and Canadian dollars. And we will see that more than American touch my camera through the fence. Sorry,

daddy. It's a fed smoker reference. I know what that means. We will see you all on Thursday at 3 and other pods at drdrew.com if you want to find other things. And I appreciate all the good comments out here. Well done. See you guys Thursday. Bye.

Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future.

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