Ask Dr. Drew - Dr. Robert Malone – Inventor of mRNA Vaccine Technology – Warns of Risks with Dr. Kelly Victory – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 119

Episode Date: September 4, 2022

"As the original 'inventor' of mRNA and DNA vaccines… I am concerned about how the technology is being developed and implemented." Dr. Robert Malone is recognized as an original "inventor" of mRNA vaccine technology. But he has deep concerns about its effects, and has been banned by most major social platforms for speaking about the risks that he believes are hiding within his own discoveries. Dr. Malone is so controversial that his interviews with podcasting titan Joe Rogan were censored by major platforms after being viewed by millions. The producers of Ask Dr. Drew expect a similar reaction to this episode. Dr. Robert Malone received his medical degree from the Northwestern Feinberg School of Medicine, and completed the Harvard Medical School fellowship in 2016 and was scientifically trained at the University of California at Davis, the University of California at San Diego, and at the Salk Institute Molecular Biology and Virology laboratories. Follow Dr. Malone at https://RWmaloneMD.com 「 ABOUT the SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 The CDC states that COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and reduce your risk of severe illness. You should always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health.  「 SPONSORED BY 」 • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew 「 GEAR PROVIDED BY 」 • BLUE MICS - After more than 30 years in broadcasting, Dr. Drew's iconic voice has reached pristine clarity through Blue Microphones. But you don't need a fancy studio to sound great with Blue's lineup: ranging from high-quality USB mics like the Yeti, to studio-grade XLR mics like Dr. Drew's Blueberry. Find your best sound at https://drdrew.com/blue • ELGATO - Every week, Dr. Drew broadcasts live shows from his home studio under soft, clean lighting from Elgato's Key Lights. From the control room, the producers manage Dr. Drew's streams with a Stream Deck XL, and ingest HD video with a Camlink 4K. Add a professional touch to your streams or Zoom calls with Elgato. See how Elgato's lights transformed Dr. Drew's set: https://drdrew.com/sponsors/elgato/ 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 For over 30 years, Dr. Drew has answered questions and offered guidance to millions through popular shows like Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Dr. Drew On Call (HLN), Teen Mom OG (MTV), and the iconic radio show Loveline. Now, Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio. Watch all of Dr. Drew's latest shows at https://drdrew.tv Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome, everyone. I believe we are going to start on all the platforms today. We may head on over to Rumble at some point. Is that correct, Susan? We're starting everywhere? No. No. Oh, we're off YouTube. We're off YouTube. We're not going to risk that. We're on all the other platforms.

Fair enough. Oh, we're still suspended. That's what we usually go to. We are still suspended. Oh, great. Well, I'm going to have Caleb give us an update after the intro. We're still in YouTube jail. Okay. I thought that. Our friend, K.A., said she'd bring a nail file to get us out of YouTube jail.

That's really funny. Today, very special guest, Dr. Robert Malone. You may have seen him on the Joe Rogan Experience. He's been around. He was one of the people that developed some of these technologies that we're using the vaccines today. He's got a lot of opinions, a lot of interesting ideas. We're going to mine them today. And we're going to give you an update, our own YouTube status, our YouTube jailing and where we are with that.

There's been some communication in public on Twitter, and I'm hopeful that we can get restored. Also, there's new California law that is profoundly disturbing every physician I know. I'll give you a little primer on that right after this. Our laws as it pertains to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help.

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that can keep up with your evolving needs. With flexible coverage options from TD Insurance, you only pay for what you need. TD, ready for you. And so first off, let me address this California law that is going to make it nearly illegal for physicians to be considered going public with anything that anybody considers misinformation. This is one of the more draconian legislative actions that we have seen so far against physicians and their ability to talk

amongst themselves publicly. You're only going to be able to hear from the way this thing is structured, from bureaucracies and from academic sorts of pundits, not even pundits, academic infrastructures. And the reality is if you learn nothing from COVID, those often get it wrong and they often take a long time to adjust their point of view and they don't trust you and your doctor to do what's right for you. And that is disgusting, in my humble opinion. But because of that, it bears saying again, in no way am I interested in promoting misinformation. Yesterday, I spent 45 minutes, I'd say, certainly 40 minutes, explicating my position. I recommend the MRA vaccine on a regular basis to my patients over the age of 65.

We know the data is very clear. I've asked many of them to wait till the Omicron is available. I understand it's only been tested on mice, but I will be recommending it nonetheless. Again, this is all based on previous experience with flu vaccines. This is why we're going ahead with this.

I think the risk reward is worth it. Many people don't believe so, but my patients, that's what we've done. Now, I personally had, as I mentioned yesterday, a terrible reaction to the J&J vaccine, and now I'm being asked by the country of Spain. Is that right, Susan? If we're going to go there, I have to get another update. It's not clear. There's my spontaneous raccoon's eye, which I've pointed out several times, is the presenting feature of transverse sinus thrombosis, which is the dreaded complication of the J&J vaccine. And I thought I was going to be the only male with it. Turns out it must have been something in my cavernous sinus. It definitely was a consumptive coagulopathy of some type, but didn't cause any real clinical problem for me. And my immunity has been amazing. I've been around Omicron a lot lately, and I've been stuck in a room with Susan for three days with it and didn't get anything. I had it back in September.

I dealt with it a year before that. Yeah, it wouldn't leave me alone. Yeah, about that. But in any event, the point is our intention here is to have discourse amongst peers, to really get new ideas. I've already, you know, I spent a lot of the COVID pandemic just thinking to myself, what is happening? What is going on? How did we get here? What is going on? And by talking to some of my peers who have had some sort of direct exposure

to some of the perhaps more nefarious, but the direct experience like Dr. Bhattacharya and Dr. Malone and Dr. McCauley, you'll hear it in a minute, with the communications from the people who are making the decision, it's now increasingly clear what was going on. Now, I believe some of the decisions they made were grotesquely in error. Fine. They made mistakes. They stuck with those mistakes was really where things went off the rail. And I understand things better now by talking to my peers. As you know, Dr. Kelly Victor will be here with me, Dr. Malone. She and I disagree on particular some of the vaccine therapies, some of the early therapies as well. As I, again, just to state my position again, which I did in great, great, great detail yesterday, I prescribed Paxlovid quite a bit.

I know what I'm doing with it over the age of 65. I'm not sure what I'm doing with it under the age of 65. It reduces hospitalization and deaths over 65. It certainly shortens the duration of illness under 65. I've seen that. I mean, I've prescribed it over 100 times, I'm sure. But maybe it affects immunity. Maybe it has some long-term issues.

We don't know. These are all risk-reward analysis that I make on behalf of my patients. And I've not seen much from the other early treatments. I guess we're not on YouTube, so I can actually say the names of them, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. But I don't quarrel with doctors that want to prescribe that. And there was a nice review that came out today. It was in an online journal. It wasn't in a usual kind of journal,

but it was a peer-reviewed journal that suggested there could be some prophylactic benefit. And again, let's look at the data, let's look at the science, and let's act accordingly. So let me next bring in Dr. Robert Malone. Dr. Robert Malone, virologist who worked on the development of mRNA vaccines. It has been a sharp shock for me to come to terms with what modern propaganda and media manipulation really means. And we found out the J&J product was causing blood clotting. A scientist to now have been cancelled by Twitter. I don't want to alert the audience or scare you. I have no interest in spooking everybody and making a big kerfuffle. We didn't know what we know now about the adverse events.

That was all hidden. Just because a group of engineers designed the 737 MAX, it doesn't mean that the Wright brothers didn't invent PowerFlight. There has been a concerted campaign to write me out of history all the way through. Welcome, Dr. Robert Malone. Dr. Malone, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me, Dr. Drew, and for the opportunity to speak to your audience. Is it interesting you mentioned some of those clips about the clotting effect of the J&J vaccine, and I woke up on day two with a fever and body aches and headache and spontaneous

bruising around my, you know, periorbital swelling, periorbital ecchymosis, I beg your pardon, and you can imagine I was very worried when I saw that. Well, if you're going to open that can of worms, let's also note that in Europe, there is black box warnings associated with the protein-based product from Novavax, which also has the same spike protein. Of course, it's a well-known adverse event associated with both of the mRNA based products also. So the assertion that spike is not a toxin does not withstand the test of time and the literature also. The fact-checking initially thrown against me when I mentioned this

on the Dark Horse podcast with Brett Weinstein so long ago was that there had been engineering of the spike protein to eliminate the toxicity effects as the genetic vaccines were engineered. That was patently false. The engineering that was done in this is in the S1 subunit. And that engineering was designed not to change its toxicity, but to improve its immunogenicity. And of course, the free form of spike gets cleaved off and is sequence identical to the virally encoded one. And the literature demonstrating the toxicity of the virally encoded spike is rich and deep. And it involves not just coagulopathy, binding to platelets, the associated thrombocytopenia, auto-thrombocytopenia, the opening of tight junctions and so many other things.

So your experience, I think it's important to differentiate between the effects that is associated with the protein itself as opposed to the gene delivery platform or polynucleotide delivery platform. Agreed. Let's put aside the – because I know Dr. Victory wants to get into a lot more detail on the vaccine story. I want to put that aside for just a second. Do me a favor, just so people understand who you are, sketch your academic credentials, and then I want to address one other topic before we bring Dr. Victory in. Let's see. Biochemistry, UC Davis,

master's degree in lieu of PhD. I passed my thesis exams, qualifying exams at UC San Diego and Salk Institute, but at the time had had a series of discoveries, this is 87 to 89, that gave rise to a series of patents and I got caught in a major patent battle between the UCSD campus and the Salk Institute. But that's where I got my master's. And I was working in the laboratory of Dr. Idna Verma, one of the leading gene therapy experts in the world at the time. And then completed my internship at UC Davis, completed my MD at Northwestern University, completed multiple fellowships, including pathology at UC Davis, Sacramento Medical Center, and then completed a postdoctoral fellowship as a global clinical research scholar, which allowed me to be designated as a graduate of Harvard Medical School.

I've been an academic assistant professor of pathology at UC Davis in Maryland, Baltimore, an associate professor of pathology and surgery at Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. I've started multiple companies. I have extensive experience in biodefense. I've won well over a billion dollars in federal grants and contracts. I've often sat as study section chair, usually for larger contracts for the NIH, particularly NIAID. I have a deep and long collaborative relationship with the Uniformed Services, University of the Health Sciences, as well as the Defense Threat Reduction Agency. I have around 100 publications, about 13,000 citations. I'm listed on Google Scholar as exceptional, so that's the ranking of a senior

full professor. And many, many patents, of which nine originating in the late 80s, cover the core technology of mRNA expression, purification, design for efficient expression, delivery into cells and tissues, and use of that mRNA as a drug or for vaccine purposes. These are the core patents that describe the mRNA vaccine technology. There is subsequent work that's been done, but of note is that the Currico and Weissman patents that are often cited make absolutely no mention of use of pseudouridine-containing RNA for vaccine purposes because that was all covered by the prior patents. I've been at the tip of the spear with a variety of projects, including bringing forth the Public Health Agency Canada vaccine

for Ebola, and that's now known as the Merck Ebola vaccine since I got it licensed to Merck. A number of repurposed drug discoveries relating to yellow fever and Zika. And you're, just so I get it, you're a pathologist by training. You had a pathology residency and a pathology fellowship. Is that how that worked? And, of course, obviously a biochemist as well. Pathology research fellowship, and I taught pathology for many years, about 15 years at Maryland, Baltimore, and at UC Davis. Okay.

And then I want to talk for you. In terms of practice, I've never practiced medicine. I'm a specialist in clinical research and regulatory affairs. I get it. I get it. I understand. And now one thing you mentioned when you were on the Joe Rogan experience that made the rounds, and I just want to, before we bring Dr. Victory in again, just sort of have a brief aside about this construct,

which was Dr. Desmet's notion of the mass formation psychosis. I had not really heard that sort of put together that way until you started talking about it. And I listened to Dr. Desmet and I've seen what he printed about it. And at the time when I saw you talking about it, I was already thinking, here's where my head was at the time. I thought, I was thinking, my my god we have had this narcissistic transformation in this country I saw it happen personally I worked in a

psychiatric hospital for 30 years I saw the trend I saw the axis to become all cluster B over the course of 10 years and just stay there for 20 years but I we didn't see a lot of histrionic. And I thought, people are actually delusional now. They're actively delusional. Now, maybe they've been rendered delusional because of the press spinning them into a fear state that caused the delusionality. I don't think we've had a transformation in our personality construct. I don't see us as histrionic. We've been just behaving as though we are histrionic. And then Dr. Desmond put together this construct that you referred to. And he was sort of, you know, calling upon the French Revolution and other sorts of historical

moments, looking at what the characteristics were that led to people behaving like this. Are you still in that camp? You still feel like that's a reasonable construct for what we've just been through or what we're still going through? So I'm in the middle of a, it's now over 400 pages, a book trying to help people with sense making regarding what we've all been through over the last two and a half years. It's going to be coming out and my purpose here is not to push it on your show, but just to explain the context. This is to be published by Skyhorse and Tony Lyons, which is Bobby Kennedy's publisher. And I was very involved in editing Bobby's book on Tony Fauci.

So because I've been working on the book and using Substack as a way to serialize the chapters, I've spent a lot of time trying to think through and follow the various rabbit holes of what we've all experienced and why. This was the big questions that brett weinstein posed to me so long ago how has this happened to all of us and why and uh when i first heard matthias speak and just to get this point out of the way um uh the terms uh of art in this area which has to do with crowd psychology, so it is not in the DSM, as you know, which is very focused on individual. That was one of the criticisms is the term was not in the DSM. But when I first heard Matthias speak, and he's now a good friend matter of fact he's probably going

to be here on the farm this weekend he's currently with dell big tree and he just did a lengthy interview with tucker that apparently is quite something please tell him i want to speak with him too please well if you i can enable that while he's here so be careful what you say. Thank you. He's going to be on ban on Friday morning, but let me know when you want to talk to him when you're open. Okay. bolt of lightning suddenly something that had made no sense before in terms of the behavior of the general populace made sense and i thought it was a fantastic hypothesis it really clarified things and one of the things that i love about it is that it allows many people to have some peace, to be able to forgive and understand their families that have been fragmented, their coworkers, et cetera. When I first spoke about this to a large group at a

megachurch in Florida, it's like 1,500 people, 2,000 people, I just riffed on it. McCullough had come on before and stolen all my thunder in terms of what I was going to talk about otherwise. So I just started talking extemporaneously about Matthias' hypothesis. And I don't know, it just flowed straight out of my mouth. I don't know where it came from. But tears are rolling down people's face. It touches on something for those of us that have kind of been traumatized by what we've seen happen in our culture and with our former friends and colleagues that have become alienated. Matias's hypotheses, and I love him. I've spent so many hours with him. Time in Spain,

you had a little cut from the Headwind series there. And I've spent a lot of time with Matthias, stayed in his home, was just visiting him in Belgium three weekends ago, I think it was. And he'll be here, like I said, this weekend. But it's not the only explanation. And I concur with you strongly that there is a substantial psychological underpinning that we've all experienced here. And some of it involves the weaponization of information via the media. And that's part of what Matthias touches on. And I think we need to acknowledge that Matthias stands on the shoulders of many great 19th and 20th century philosophers. And the idea of the mass formation really traces all the way back to the parable of

the cave that is in Plato's Republic. This is a very old observation. And of course, Gustav Le Bon in his work and Hannah Arndt is the immediate predecessor to Matthias. Hence why I spoke about the exemplar of what happened in Nazi Germany. The press, of course, inferred that I was somehow calling the press and Mr. Biden Nazis, because I was speaking of the literature and us in scientific investigations to try to comprehend this crowd phenomena or, you know, just to get the nomenclature right. It's the terminology, because this is another thing that's been criticized, the historic terminology is mass formation, which is a European term. It's translated, and it refers to the formation of crowds and crowd behavior. And another term of art in this is mass psychosis, which we would call in English, the madness of crowds. And one of the early podcasts with Matthias, the podcaster titled it mass formation, parens psychosis,

because the two terms of art are interchangeable. And so that's why I started using the term mass formation psychosis. Matthias has forgiven me for having done that, probably because by saying it on Joe Rogan, it catapulted him onto the world stage. And of course, now he has a book out, which is in part designed to address the many critics that asserted that he was not academically qualified, that there was no academic basis for this. I've just cited some of the key prior academic references. But Matthias's book, Not to Push That, is The Psychology of Totalitarianism in the English title. And that's readily available over Amazon, and you can read it for yourself. But it's not the only one.

There's another fantastic book that was written by someone that experienced the Iron Curtain environment called Political Ponerology. And there is, of course, one of my favorites, Victims of Group Think, the work of Irving Janus, I think, explains a lot of what we saw transpire with this small insular in-group that was ostensibly led by Mike Pence, but in reality led by Deborah Birx. And as I went back to this political science treatise that was developed by one of your colleagues in the psychological world, coming from his academic work looking at the behavior of small groups.

Irving Janus makes a series of predictions about the behaviors of these small insular ingroots that when I went back and reviewed it just because of intellectual curiosity and I knew I was going to have to give a talk, I found that the predictions that Janus made based on his case studies of American decision-making and policy decision-making were dead on. The rejection and attacks of outsiders, such as the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration and Scott Atlas, were absolutely predicted in Janus's work.

And then I think we get down to the level of the individual, and I think there's also an element of Dunning-Kruger, another thing that feeds into the discipline of psychology. And I think Dr. Birx, and to some extent, I'm sorry, Dr. Fauci, have the hubris of individuals who believe in their uh intellectual capabilities uh which uh that belief doesn't seem to be well aligned with their actual performance so well i'm trying to be diplomatic it's interesting to me that uh the sort of classic canon le Le Bon has two books, The Crowd and Revolution. There is the extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds.

And there's Janice. These were all under attack right about the time this all happened. And I noticed that the attack stopped when the reality actually mirrored precisely what everyone in those classic observational books were observing.

What is Janice's book name again? I'm going to get it immediately. What is the book again? The Groupthink was the original one. It's out of print. And he's passed away, unfortunately. I wish he was here to share with us his insights. And then he did a follow-up edition just called Groupthink that added a chapter that was a

case study of Watergate, uh, which also fits in his modeling. Um, so I, I think that there's another one that we need to acknowledge, which is the book about nudge, which, uh, came out a few years ago and had really spread throughout the world, particularly through governments. And the BBC has embraced it. And intelligence communities have embraced it. And the World Economic Forum and the World Health Organization have embraced the logic of nudge technology. And frankly, you were there in the belly of the beast in Pasadena. And I think we can make a case that Hollywood and much of California is suffering from the effects of nudge technology. And there's a

variety of pejorative terms that are very politically skewed, but I'm going to say one of them just to kind of provide a link. The term that's often used by some parts of the political spectrum is wokeism. But I think a lot of what we attribute as wokeism in that culture is really the consequence of the deployment of nudge technology. I think there's other factors in there too. I think that you're exactly right. As I have tried to make sense out of what we've all experienced and capture it as chapters and make it available to folks that don't have an academic background, What I've found is we can go down these various rabbit holes of Klaus Schwab, who's made himself into a cartoon Bond character. And we can talk about Tedros, and we can talk about the administrative state and all these things, and the role of the central banks and the economics and all that. But underneath all of that, there's some really profound psychological unhealthiness, I would say.

Yeah, I agree. What I was saying initially was if in 2018 you had come to me and said there's a Russian operative in the Oval Office and I'm seeing Nazis everywhere, I would put you in a hospital. That's what I would do. And suddenly I was hearing everybody talk like that in many different domains. And I thought, wow, people don't understand. This is delusional.

It's a delusional thing. But we have to take a break. Two things I want to a delusional thing. But we have to take a break. Two things I want to do. Well, three things. I want to take a break. We're going to come back with Dr. Malone. I'm going to have you explain nudge technology. But before you do, I'm going to welcome Dr. Victory in because I hear her there wanting to get in on this conversation very badly.

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This is uncharted territory, Drew. And this is Dr. Kelly Victory. Welcome, Kelly, to this interesting interview with Dr. Malone. Before I let you launch into i felt you there wanted to get at stuff let me have him just explain nudge technologies because people are asking about that on the restream and over over at rumble and stuff so dr malone uh so nudge is there's a book out i forget what it's nudge is just the first word you can find it on amazon uh and it's actually in its third volume right now.

It's become really widely accepted in both governments, non-governmental organizations, and the intelligence community. And the simplest example I can use of nudge technology, just to illustrate the point, is that in Amsterdam toilets for men, urinals, there's little stickers of a fly. And I think the general audience can appreciate that that causes those using those urinals to try to point at the fly with their urine stream. It's very effective at reducing the need for cleaning in airport bathrooms in the Amsterdam on Schiphol. So there's one example. A more sophisticated example involves the careful use of language and broadcasting to normalize things which we might wish to have for the best reasons as public health practices or

other community practices. So the British were quite good at using subtle cues to discourage tobacco smoking in the UK, and that really had a huge positive impact on public health in the UK. You'll also notice in the British Broadcasting Corporation productions throughout the UK, and now increasingly in places like Netflix, that we have this gradual use of a variety of different kind of social interactions having to do with people of different ethnic backgrounds or races or gender orientations, et cetera. And a lot of that is designed to kind of allow us as a community to become desensitized to things that we might not normally encounter in our average life so that we don't have the prejudices and social reactions that are dysfunctional that we might otherwise have just as natural human beings. That's another example of nudge technology. A more sophisticated

one has to do with the use of language and the creative use of language alluding to things which we already have pre-baked reactions to. So these various terms that have really been very aggressively deployed that are intended to evoke a visceral reaction within us and create a connection between one concept or idea and another one. So an example of that is far right. And often far right is coupled with Nazi. And then that's often coupled with fascist. And these are actually real political science terms that are abused widely in order to evoke visceral emotional reactions in the listener. So just to clarify and amplify on the point, fascism is not just a casual term to throw around at our enemies. It is not a bunch of young men marching in

Charlottesville with tiki torches. It's a political system that involves the alliance and close cooperation between large corporations and the nation state, what we might call in current euphemisms, public-private partnerships. Public-private partnerships are fundamentally fascist in the classical definition in political science of what is fascism. So we see these various terms, conditions, and subtle nudges that are designed to influence all of our behavior in a gradualistic way, rather than saying, thou shalt not do this, we're going to prohibit this action or that action as a sin or whatever. It's been shown through behavioral research that the behavior of populations can be affected very accurately through deployment of this kind of technology, language, et cetera, in a variety of different media streams

and language that's used commonly. So I hope that helps. But the easiest one is the fly in the urinals in Schiphol Airport. Yeah, and it also bleeds over to neurolinguistic processing and persuasion sort of ideas, which is into the field of hypnosis. There's a lot going on that people are using that people aren't aware of. Dr. Victory, you're on. I'll give you the podium. You stole my thunder by starting with the mass formation psychosis. I was going to end with that. And I could certainly spend the whole show talking about that with Dr. Malone.

Dr. Malone, Drew knows I was a psychologist before I was a physician, and I have a particular specialty in the formation of mobs and of group psychology, it's interesting because a group is made up of individuals up until the point that it's not, and when it becomes a mob, and when all of a sudden, it is no longer a group that is thinking like people with independent thought and will, and it becomes a very different beast. And unfortunately, there are people who have become expert at being able to control the mob. They actually push to have the mob be formed. I teach a class on leadership in times of crisis, and it's all about keeping people as individuals because it's only as individuals that they can employ critical thinking and that

they can help to get themselves out of what I call the basement of fear. Once they become a mob, it's a very different thing. And we have around much of the world become a mob during this pandemic. But I really want to spend some time talking about the issues of vaccines in general. You clearly have been on the cutting edge, the bleeding edge of mRNA technology for decades. And one of the things that I think- Many other vaccine technology. Yes. Many other vaccines.

And so I think, I don't want to speak for you. I speak for myself. I say, I am not an anti-vaxxer or whatever that is. I am actually quite pro-vaccine. I've been called a vaccine zealot in years past because I have spoken and written prolifically on the importance of vaccines. My concern is with these particular vaccines. And one of the things that I wanted to really ask you about is given your deep background in mRNA technology, it's been around for decades, why is it that we'd never had had a mRNA vaccine launched on the public? It's not for lack of trying as I understand it, but why were these COVID vaccines the first mRNA vaccines to

get launched to the public? Okay. So that's going to take a good half an hour. I'll try to compress it. One of the things that happened early on with those patents, and understand I never got any financial benefit, the total budget allocated for that Skunk Works project at Bicow was about $40,000, including my salary as a technician. And I received one Susan B. Anthony dollar for my contributions. So I just want to set the record straight. When I left to finish my last two years of med school, I left Bicow for Northwestern for my last two years. And what happened was that they didn't have any expertise there in the shop to make the high yield, high purity mRNA that I'd been manufacturing. And this was

outside of the core focus of the company, the company was built for antivirals, and calcitonin analogs, hence the name. It was built around a Burroughs Wellcome contract for liposomal dideoxynucleotides to treat hiv and so this was really an aside it was outside of the core business model and the uh chief executive officer and and financial officer decided to license it out to generate some cash and they convinced maurice hellman the legendary merc vaccinologist to purchase the rights to what had been done. And the terms and conditions were, it had already been reduced to practice in both for influenza and in HIV antigens.

And the terms that Merck executed was they paid, I forget, 40 million or something for it. And they required that all credit for the discoveries and subsequent development go to the Merck team. And Merck took it. This gave rise to Margaret Liu and her folks and their publications subsequently in science. And they really couldn't make the mRNA. They didn't think it was commercially viable. They didn't think it would be stable. They focused on the DNA. They never actually built a functional DNA vaccine. Billions were invested in this, both in Bikel and MIRT. But what they did do was aggressively prevent anybody else from developing the mRNA technologies, including myself. I got a nasty letter when I was an academic

that I should not continue pursuing anything having to do with my prior discoveries. So it basically sat on the shelf in kind of a pocket veto until the patents expired. And companies such as CureVac independently started working on the idea many years later. Crico and Drew Weissman had their pseudo-uridine discoveries about a decade afterwards, after speaking to me and getting some advice. But Vycal and Merck aggressively kept anybody else from developing it. Then the patents expired, and DARPA decided that they agreed with some of the papers that I had written, particularly together with Dr. Annie DeGroote of Epivax, advocating that this technology could enable rapid response,

which is a major problem in the biodefense space with vaccines. The intention was more for special forces and small groups, so small custom-made vaccines for emerging infectious disease or engineered pathogens. And DARPA dumped money particularly into Moderna, DARPA being basically an arm of the CIA. And even now in the present, the new manufacturing facility that's just been stood up in Canada is funded by In-Q-Tel, which is the investment fund arm of the CIA. So our intelligence community is all over this and pushing this forward. And they've been doing so for about the last 10 years. And the logic is that there is a huge unmet need for the ability to respond rapidly to an infectious disease threat. And I think that there was a number of failures at Moderna, as you correctly point out.

They never really settled on the vaccine indication. This is kind of Johnny-come-lately to this. And also at BioNTech, there was an effort to move this forward, and at CureVac. CureVac actually got investment funds from Elon Musk. The others got different sources of capital. BioNTech is funded in part by the German government. And then we had the run-up to this event. And let's not get in down the rabbit hole

of event 201 and the pre-planning and the patents that David Martin has pointed out, and the fact that Bill Gates made major investments in these companies in a remarkably prescient way. But it all happened. The data, you know, the facts are the facts. We just don't know what was inside of their heads. So I'm not going to go there. And I suggest we don't either. advance this technology. And then for some reason, the strange decision that all of the regulatory norms that have existed for vaccines and gene therapy, because this is both, would be basically thrown out the door and all of this would be expedited in a mad rush to try to get something while meantime preventing any other alternatives because it would compromise the emergency use authorization pathway. I think that all of that is very well documented, what I've just said. And I don't think that the LA Times or the New York Times or the Washington Post can criticize any of those points. No, I agree with all of that. And I am not prone to conspiracy theories,

but one has to come to the conclusion, if you've been watching this and has been involved in this from the beginning as I have been, that the singular push for these vaccines, the therapeutic nihilism, the fact that we were not even allowed to talk about readily available, inexpensive, effective therapeutics like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and steroids, that we weren't allowed to promote the simplest of things like supplementing vitamin D and zinc and things we knew would have a profoundly positive effect. One really has to come to the conclusion that there was something else driving this singular desire to get the mRNA

technology across the finish line, and frankly, to make it a household name, if you want my opinion. But I will respect your suggestion that we not go too far down that rabbit hole. I want to ask you specifically about- It is documented. The World Economic Forum has their written publications, and you can read Klaus Schwab's remarkably clud and naive book scientifically questionable all the way through it but there is the

logic stated in public documents by these various organizations that the advancement of this technology and getting acceptance in the public to administration and uptake of a polynucleotide-based intervention vaccine is the easiest one, will then allow further future development of pharmaceuticals that would act through

modification of genome or other exploitation of genetic information. And it's been remarkable that the public, particularly the European public public which has been so sensitive to genetically modified organisms has allowed themselves to all become genetically modified organisms so we'll just leave it at that how about i have said the same thing i said that the same people who would not eat a gmo tomato uh have rolled up their sleeves for uh three and four shots uh but i want to ask you specifically you were were, I don't want to say promoting, but at least advertising or letting people know about an event that happened yesterday with an FAA whistleblower with regard to vaccine injuries that have occurred in pilots and some question about whether the FAA has been complicit in

really allowing them to sort of bypass the routine regulations with regard to untested vaccines in pilots. Drew and I, I'll say, Drew and I disagree quite a bit on both the safety and efficacy of these vaccines and have from the beginning, I believe that we have an overwhelming number of adverse events that have happened all across the world and they fall into lots of different categories. But the concern specifically about potential injuries to pilots and what that means from a public safety perspective. So talk a little bit about that. I don't know how much you know about that event.

I wasn't able to participate in it, but I heard about it first actually through an email from you. So this has been ongoing now, and that email must have come through the Substack. So thank you for that. And thank you for being a subscriber. I wasn't aware of that. And just to give you a little fun aside, Tony Fauci and Cliff Lane also both read the Substack. That's a fascinating fact. So we'll just leave that alone. This issue of the pilots organizations,

both within the United States and internationally, has been one that I've been very aware of now for well over a year. And because of commercial and public safety interests, there has been a clear suppression of information about this. This also relates to the whistleblower case of the lieutenant colonel in the Department of Defense, who is a flight surgeon, who was made aware of the remarkably high incidence of cardiovascular events in young trainee pilots. She's in a rotary wing division, I think in Alabama or Georgia. So there is also another organization based out of the UK, which has had similar observations. In general, the flight surgeon and oversight community globally is generally, other than the flight surgeon physicians, who are very attuned to what they're observing in the pilots having to do with cardiovascular events, stroke, elevated troponin, and other signals signals because these pilots are subjected to quite rigorous

routine analysis, thank God for all of us. But the case is made that in terms of the statutes, the national regulatory authorities, including the Federal Aviation Administration here in the United States, but also in other nation states, has a mandate to ensure that any vaccine products that are administered and other medical products that are administered to pilots are well characterized as being safe and effective. And they have deferred to the positions taken by Health and Human Services in the United States and the various national health authorities and have required these experimental products to be administered to pilots. Pilots in general, as I mentioned, have been very sensitized to the cardiac events, and many of them have experienced it. commercial carriers is because of pilots being aware of the uh cardiovascular complications that are at an alarmingly high rate because if they if they go to their flight surgeon and uh describe that they have had heart pain or other symptoms or dizziness or whatever they'll be grounded and they'll likely completely lose the ability to practice their profession. Just like you guys were to say.

But I want to drill into this a little bit because we're tossing around data. I'm going to make sure we ground it in data we have. So, you know, we don't have the data yet on the dizziness and the so-called pot syndrome, the, you know, the sort of the dizziness and the so-called POTS syndrome, the dizziness and the passing out. I think that's going to end up being much higher than we understood. But POTS is probably associated with myocarditis and also can be independent of myocarditis. The only data I know of on myocarditis that is really good is the recent circulation article where they were comparing adverse events in people with COVID versus vaccinated alone. And they found essentially

a five times higher rate of myocarditis in men under 40. And I've heard other people who have been looking at that data saying that it might be substantially higher in the 15 to 25 age group, but just lumping them all under 40 put it at roughly five times the risk of COVID. But the risk was still tiny, okay? This is the part I want to kind of drill into. Look at the study out of Thailand, though. The study out of Thailand. Go ahead, Dr. Malone. Those data that you bring to in that study represent gross underreporting. What's observed in the aviation community, and understand, for instance, this is not public. Southwest Airlines now pairs vaccinated with unvaccinated pilots. There was an incidence of a vaccinated pilot flying an Airbus, which apparently is a left-handed flight for the main pilot in terms of the controls, who had a stroke,

left-sided stroke, and was unable to fly the plane. So in the aviation community, and then of course, there are the many reports of adverse events and cardiac events in the military community, but those data have been actively manipulated. And when it came out after Teresa Long just did the data analysis and pulled that out, then there was very active real-time manipulation. So I caution Dr. Drew that I appreciate the sensitivity with the audience and the need to stay data-based, but let's just say this, in that the testimony provided for that FAA whistleblower case, which was the focus of that meeting, there are a number of documents which are readily available for your review or that for your audience that you could link here. And all of those links in those documents are readily available through the sub stack and through the disclosures. I also have a very detailed legal brief concerning this that was prepared by a lawyer here in Virginia who practiced in toxicology law in DC for many years. And I'd be glad to make that available. It's going into the book and it has 130 different references. So to your point,

I completely concur that we need to stay database, but to recognize that we're talking about forward-looking risk and the problem with relying exclusively on evidence-based medicine involving these large data analyses in which, by the admission of the CDC, they have been withholding data and have been reporting things in a way that is politically skewed. According to the New York Times, we do have to, I think for the interests of safety and transportation safety, I suggest that it's more prudent to be a little more proactive, particularly with pilots. Over. Well, if I could summarize what I'm hearing, but would you guys tell me if what

I'm hearing is accurate? So we are slowly getting increasingly clear data about very isolated questions, which is how research works, right? What is the rate of myocarditis in COVID versus the vaccine? We haven't yet looked at stroke or POTS or other consumptive coagulopathies. We just don't have that data yet. And what I'm hearing you say, and I think this is true, is because there appears to be a protean range of problems that could affect particularly functioning, it is very relevant to somebody flying an airplane. It may not be medically relevant necessarily. It may prove to be.

We don't have that data yet. But it's certainly relevant to the safety of the 300 people on an aircraft when somebody has even a potential of an adverse event that could affect functioning in a real way. Is that a way to say it accurately? And that more information will be forthcoming? Well, I think that that's certainly true with regard to public safety, but I think that you are underestimating the amount of data that's actually out there with regard to these events.

I was permanently banned from Twitter specifically for posting the sworn testimony of three career military physicians who looked retrospectively at the incidence of certain events, everything from pulmonary embolisms to Bell's palsy and specifically myocarditis and pericarditis. And they compared those things to the incidents that occurred in calendar year 2021, actually only 11 months of it, and found these remarkable increases in the incidence of all of these things. Furthermore, I think, frankly, one of the most compelling bits of data is the study out of Thailand. That was a prospective study. They looked at 301 13 to 18-year-olds. They had not had COVID. They were negative for antibodies. They did extensive cardiac workups on these kids. Prior to vaccine, none of them had EKG abnormalities or lab

abnormalities. And following vaccination, 29.4%, almost 30% had cardiac abnormalities following vaccination. That is a prospective study study it doesn't get much better than that so then i think when you tie it together to the idea that somebody is in charge of flying this bus the 300 people i'm with you i i get it it's a big deal let me let me also again so people can contextualize the frame here clinically just a second let me just let me just push back a little bit by saying because that's my job here is to say that of those 20 to 30 percent of kids that got myocarditis they all recovered but let me say that if i saw a kid with myocarditis in 2018 that would be a dire medical emergency these can have profound complications and we don't know yet the long-term effects.

So that's the context of all this. Dr. Malone. Can I comment on the all recovered? Um, uh, there's a lot of dissent about that thesis. Uh, the, as you know, uh, Dr. Drew, uh, the prognosis for clinical myocarditis in classical clinical myocarditis is not particularly good on a five-year horizon. That's right. Dr. McCullough is one great example, but many others, is that what they're observing in terms of the complications seems to be tracking more along the import of the data because it's inconvenient to think

otherwise. But we do have Kelly, I'm sure just because she was more focused on the recent data, didn't mention the prior, I think it was the Hong Kong study in young males that gave us the initial rate of about one in 2,500 hospitalized myocarditis. And a very comprehensive study. So I think as I, again, I'm just struck by Dr. Victory's ability to succinctly summarize uh in a way that i'm very aligned with which is that um in i i i think that particularly in the case of these individuals that have the responsibility of hundreds of individuals uh not the least of which is me flying on these tubes all the time, to ensure safety. And there has been these, ladies and gentlemen, have been subjected to the same mandates as everyone else. And they and their flight surgeons, as well as in the DOD, are reporting what they perceive as clinically

alarming outcomes in their patients. And we may not have that yet synthesized as a comprehensive analysis. And Dr. Drew, I hope that you have not been subjected to the environment that i have over the last couple of years uh the ability to get anything published in uh that is at all controversial in the uh i know uh listen we can't even talk about it that's why we're here today we've been we've been told and i find that reprehensible and i so but i i always see my job is to sort of mix it up a little bit so we do have debate we do have just you know so people see that we can you can disagree you can have different ideas i i actually

totally agree with you about the the pilots that mortifies me and let's it's not just it's it's not just myocarditis we should be focusing on. I agree with you. There is no such thing as a, quote, mild case of myocarditis. Once you've scarred the heart muscle, it does not unscar. No, it's a dire emergency that we're treating now. We treat it now like a hives, like a urticarial rash or something. But it is a dire, dire event, myocarditis.

Let's look here. But you guys, Kelly, we onlyarditis. Let's look here, but you guys, Kelly, we only have like, we have like 10 minutes to go here. And so I want us to really choose our topics very carefully. I'll give you a chance and then I'm going to go and I bet we're out of time by that point. So go ahead, Dr. Victory. Okay. Well, I'll just say just very briefly, the culling of the data that just showed a massive increase in risk of new onset seizure or in new onset seizures following vaccination. If you look just at the VAERS data and you compare the comparing apples to apples, comparing incidents of new onset seizures following other vaccines, the new onset seizures following the COVID vaccines as reported to VAERS is 35.4

times higher than new onset seizures reported after any other vaccination. Now, whether or not just because something's reported to VAERS, everybody knows or should know that is not de facto evidence that the event is related necessarily to the vaccine. But when you see a 35 times increase in something, you better be seeing those red flags and you darn well better be doing the deep analysis. Yeah, it's what you call a signal. And if you're a physician, a scientist, one of the things you're supposed to look at is patterns and aberrations of that sort. So, you know, it's not just myocarditis that will take a pilot down

and possibly the airplane he's flying. No, I get it. A seizure in the cockpit also is kind of right up there with bad things. Yeah, I agree. Moving into that Airbus report also is it seizure, stroke, myocarditis. There's a variety of other coagulopathies. And we haven't even touched on the long-term consequences that my friend, Dr. Ryan Cole, has been so confoundingly harassed for. He's lost his practice now. He's had to sell his practice of speaking out. He's an enormously competent, skilled, well-trained pathologist. And we see these very odd blood clots. And he has come up

with some histopathology diagnostic criteria for that. but the the observations again are anecdotal at this point and I don't wish to be alarmist as not none of us do but yeah the pathologists the oncologists and the oncologic surgeons are increasingly reporting an anecdotal observation. Maybe it's biased because there's a suggestion now of watching for these things, but the number of mitoses in a high-powered field in a pathologic slide is not something that is a figment of one's imagination. Right. And there does seem to be rise in a number of these other, uh,

diagnoses that I think we have to keep careful watch on, but, but we wanted to talk, you wanted to talk about the cardiac events and the pilots. And, and I, I suggest that what you might want to do if this gets archived is to provide the link,

uh, to, uh, those various, we will get the links. Yeah. And, uh,

I'm going to rely on you to send that to us. Yeah, I will. But, but in the remaining minutes, I, I, I,

I, and what's, what's so extraordinary about all this and it's pertinent to the pathologist you're just talking about, is what the hell happened to us? What, I still ask that question, even though I sort of have more information now about what was going on and the conscious use of fear and the Fauci and his gang silencing people like yourself and Dr. Bhattacharya and the drive to the vaccine and then vaccine uber alice after that. But it's so far from the medicine that the three of us have practiced. We must have 120 years of medicine amongst us. And Dr. Malone more on the research side,

you and I more on the clinical side. What in the world do you think really, when we nail it down, Dr. Malone, other than the mass formation, do you have a theory about what, what, what wrong with us? So it's important to me because of my own personal history to make sure that one credits people with their contributions. Peter McCullough was the first one that I have heard forward the thesis that physicians were on the front lines. They were the first recipients of the jabs. And with that, they kind of psychologically had buy-in

to the safety and effectiveness because they had accepted these. There are clearly multiple financial drivers that are creating conflicts of interest, not the least of which, you know, we're all, gently put, more senior than the majority of physicians, and the vast majority of younger physicians these days are non-U.S. born. I'm saying this gently. And this is just a fact of medical schools now. And medical schools now are very focused on training to protocol. So we grew up in an era in which we were trained to be kind of investigative intellectuals. Yes, exactly, and to solve problems, those of you that are internists, not so much surgeons. Sorry, I didn't say that. Yeah, but surgeons are still allowed to improvise in the surgical field,

and I noticed they were doing more improvising during COVID than anyone else. Well, I'll tell you who has been at the forefront paradoxically of the early treatment has been the primary care docs and the integrative medicine people. They have turned out to be the heroes here. They've been willing to experiment to try to keep their patients out of the hospital. A hospitalist, I think it's important for the public to understand that the vast majority of our peers no longer operate as sole entrepreneurs, private entrepreneurs running their own practice. They are employed by large corporations, and those large corporations are not managed by physicians anymore. They're managed by MBAs and accountants and such like. That's right.

And they're told what to do and when to do it and if you don't go the line uh you can uh don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out and that's kind of been the way things have gone and and for those of us and my heart goes out to the younger physicians that are I mean I graduated with our $300,000 in debt, and I got it paid off in my 50s. These poor souls are coming out with mega debt. They're trying to start young families. They're in a wicked economic environment. They're forced to go work for big corporate America and do what they're

told and toe the line. And if they don't, they're out on their bum with a massive debt load. This is what I thought. Yep. And compromising their families and the reproductive prospects and their entire career. I mean, Paul Merrick has, the chapters in my book from folks like Paul Merrick are just heartbreaking. These various interrogation committees that are set up in hospitals to reinforce whatever the party line is. And our core physician colleagues that are coming up, they're faced with a world in which they're expected to follow rigid protocols, including the protocols that are promoted now by the organizations which traditionally have had no role in setting medical standards and still have no role in medical standards. They have no role in establishing community standard of care. But we have, I'm going to say the word emasculated.

I'm not saying that in a gender biased way. As a community by these corporate overlords, and we're not allowed to practice medicine. And so the, the bright, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, maybe, maybe it's the train coming at us is the movement now back by many, uh, to, uh, go back into a more private practice environment and kind of tell the corporation no. And to, to this, to, to And to touch on this a little bit, understand this same thing is happening all over the Western world. Same exact thing. It's not just

the United States. I travel a lot. And colleagues of mine in Italy have created a new organization called Hippocrates, and they're busy doing training for despecialization of physicians. mentoring programs and other things so that they can start providing direct care, primary care to patients on a, you know, often a fee for service basis, these new models that are coming out. But I think that it's multifactorial and there's a lot of patient dissatisfaction with what's occurred over the last two years, I think for good reason. And I want to just say loud and clear, the doctor to my side here is a great example. We have many great physicians that have spoken the truth and continued to provide old school medical care uh they have been subjected to all kinds of enormous pressures to not do this unbelievable it's unbelievable and yet they've still done it and uh yeah and the entire profession is corrupted many good people yeah yeah i will i will just say addition, that was my fear too, was this commercialization or sort of employization of physicians.

On top of that, there is a centralization of decision-making, while medicine has always been all about the decentralization of one physician and one doctor, one patient, making the best decisions on behalf of that patient. And we've taken that away and put it way up high somewhere where we did it with insurance companies, we've done it with hospitals, now we've done it with employment-based medicine, and we've done it with public health. We've done it everywhere. And frankly, I, for one, have discussed it

and had enough of it myself. That's one of my big lessons from COVID. Kelly, I'll give you a last thought. You guys, I've got to wrap this up. Kelly? Yeah, well, I was just going to say one of the saddest things to me, I just got a flyer from UC Berkeley saying that this coming school year, they're going to require masks for all people who have not received a flu vaccine.

So this isn't going to end anytime soon. One of the saddest things of all, and I've said it many times, is that the average person has lost complete and total confidence in the medical system, certainly in public health, and most alarmingly, they have lost faith in their God-given immune systems. We know one's talking about things like regular exercise, adequate sleep, good nutrition, stress mitigation, supplementing vitamin D and zinc and all the things we knew were cheap and effective and would decrease not only your risk of getting COVID, but your risk of getting a heck of a lot of other things and things that would enhance your quality of life. We now, I fear, have fomented a generation or two or more of people who honestly believe they

should have fear of being around others, that it's not safe to be in large spaces, that masks do something appreciable to stop the spread of respiratory viruses, that your best bet is to, you know, hide in the basement, bathe in Purell and hope to heck they launch another vaccine program. And that's a tragedy. And somehow we have got to get ourselves out of that basement. And hopefully conversations like this one, even if you disagree with what I'm saying or what Dr. Malone is saying, and you want to read the studies, at least it will open your eyes that this is not a way to live. Yes. And Dr. Malone, I'll give a final thought to you.

Amen. I want to vote for that woman to be head of the A&A. I was going to say the same thing. You made him so happy. No, she always nails it. I don't know. You know, I'm just grateful that she's kind of come into the world of all of us that are talking. And I hope that at some point we get a chance to meet in person and perhaps do some speaking engagements together. Because I'm just really struck by her coherence and her honesty and her passion.

And just like Dr. McCullough, she is very grounded in the literature. And I'm just ecstatic to have been here. And thank you for the opportunity. And we'll certainly bring you back. Dr. Victory will re-invite you if any time because there's many more topics we can continue down the, there's so much more to talk about here. I felt like, you know, this could have easily been three, four hours, but I'm trying

to sort of craft it in such a way that we you know, do an hour and a half and leave people with something to think about. And Kelly, if we can put up those links, I think that'd be a great idea. Yeah, absolutely. I'll send those to you. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate your thoughts and your candor

and carrying the torch. You've been carrying the crucible for quite some time and it's not easy. We've been scrutinized and I'm very... My positions are such that it shouldn't be scrutinized. It's just ridiculous, but

here we are. That's the world we live in. We have to be happy warriors. It's a worthy battle to fight. So let's think that we have the opportunity to make a difference in people's lives. Well, there you go. It's a nice way to look at it. Susan, you're leaning in. Did you want to say something?

No, no. I'm just really happy. And Caleb, you had a quick question about something? It was a nice way to look at it. Susan, you're leaning in. Did you want to say something? No, no. I'm just really happy. And Caleb, you had a quick question about something? Great show. Great show. It was a good show. Oh, yes. David, you cool? I did have a question, actually, about the – it kind of is on a similar topic, but I guess it's more pertinent to, I guess, censorship.

Because I understand why YouTube and Twitter, what their motivations are to depl-platform people that they believe are harmful. But I also believe that that is a terrible thing that almost always backfires because to anybody who even slightly questions authority, a cover-up is always worse than the crime itself. So do you think that banning you has actually had the effect of worsening the conspiracy theories by making people imagine that something as much worse is happening that's being covered up than what the truth is? Let's park this because this is another hour long discussion. It's a big time. It's a big time. Yeah.

But I like that. I'll be back next week. I like that. Go ahead, Dr. Long. I just want to suggest that you're a little bit naive, my friend. The data are coming out quite clear that the U.S. government has been directing these actions. And let's save that for the next time we all come together. Good idea. Let's do that. And I like, though, that I like that Caleb also framed it in a statement,

which is that when you don't expose the truth, you do get a strice and a fact. You do get more conspiracy theories. That's a fact. However, one thing I am learning from all of this, all of my confusion about what was happening, there is a story. There's a story that's evolving. We heard Dr. McCullough tell it. We heard Dr. Malone tell it.

Dr. Victory has been beating that drum for quite some time. And it's just kind of almost unbelievable for me as someone who had faith in the CDC and Dr. Fauci my entire career, some of this decision-making and how they were influenced and their rush to scare everybody and the vaccine uberalice

and the safety uberalice policies were just so bewildering. But here we are. So we will leave it at that. We will come back. We will start with the conspiracy theories when we return, guys. Thank you so much for being here, both of you. And Kelly, we'll see you next Wednesday.

Who is it next Wednesday, Susan? You will. It's Paul Alexander. Paul Alexander. Make sure you get in touch with me about Matias. Done and done, my friend. Thank you, guys. And for everyone else, sorry there were no time for questions on the

Twitter spaces, but I think we answered lots of questions without actually having any. So let's leave it at that, and we'll see everyone next. I'll see people tomorrow for a Q&A. I'll just answer questions that people have. Dr. Malone, just waving goodbye. Not without your hand up, just waving goodbye. And Dr. Kelly back next Wednesday.

We'll see you then. Thanks. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving.

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