Ask Dr. Drew - FINALLY: Trump Demands Pfizer Release mRNA Safety Data, Questions Effectiveness of ‘Operation Warp Speed’ Pandemic Response w/ Sasha Latypova & Dr. Chloe Carmichael – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 526

Episode Date: September 6, 2025

For the first time, Donald Trump publicly questioned Operation Warp Speed and mRNA shots during the pandemic. “Many people think they are a miracle that saved Millions of lives. Others disagree!” writes the President. “I hope OPERATION WARP SPEED was as “BRILLIANT” as many say it was. If not, we all want to know about it, and why???” “To date I have seen no evidence that any manufacturer of these magic potions consistently produces what they claim they produce,” says Sasha Latypova. Sasha Latypova is a retired pharma R&D executive with 25 years of experience. She managed contract research organizations, working with over 60 pharma companies, including Pfizer and Novartis. She specialized in cardiovascular safety and interacted with the FDA. Follow at https://x.com/sasha_latypova⠀Chloe Carmichael, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist and USA Today bestselling author. She serves on the Women’s Health Magazine Advisory Board and is a fellow at the Independent Women’s Forum. She authored “Can I Say That?” and “Nervous Energy.” Learn more at https://drchloe.com 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/sponsors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠• FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • VSHREDMD – Formulated by Dr. Drew: The Science of Cellular Health + World-Class Training Programs, Premium Content, and 1-1 Training with Certified V Shred Coaches! More at https://drdrew.com/vshredmd • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) and Susan Pinsky (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/firstladyoflov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, we're going to get back into vaccines. We're also going to talk about a shooter and what with the psychologist. We're going to talk to Chloe comes back to join us today. Let me get you the particulars. Chloe Carmichael can be followed at Dr. Chloe, D-R-C-L-O-E and Dr.C-L-O-E. And before we talk to Dr. Chloe about, they'll tell me to fix my mic cable. I believe I did, Caleb.

Before we talk to Dr. Chloe, however, we're going to talk to our friends. Sasha Latapova. Of course, she's a farm R&D executive with 25 years of experience. She managed contract research organizations. 60 pharmaceutical companies, including Pfizer and Novartis, she knows how things are supposed to be done and she can see it when things aren't being done the proper way. And she's going to talk to us about President Trump's recent ex post regarding wanting to see the Pfizer documentation of efficacy and safety. Back with more of this after this. Our laws, as it pertain to substances, are draconian and bizarre. The psychopaths start this, he was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction.

Fentanyl and heroin, ridiculous. I'm a doctor for, I say, where the hell you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Lovelin all the time, educate adolescents, and to prevent, and to treat. Do you have trouble?

You can't stop, and you want to help stop it. I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. I've spent most of my career dealing with illnesses that shorten life. And now we have ways to extend it and extend wellness. I've been working with the team over at B Shred to develop a product that has everything I want in a longevity supplement. NR boost has nicotinamide riboside. You know how metal can rust. Well, your body behaves. in a similar way. It's mediated through something called NAD. NAD falls as we age, so we're less

able to fight off that oxidative process. We oxidize much like that metal. And NAD fights it, but nicotinamide riboside elevates NAD so we can push back on those oxidative stressors. Improving health, improving longevity. The other product is Senosink, has phycin, one of the key molecules to fight off zombie cells. And we've added resveratrol to that, which is a well-known anti-aging antioxidant again. I don't like supplements that have a ton of ingredients. To me, it suggests that none of it's working. When I prescribe a medication, I prescribe that medicine because I expect that to work.

That is exactly what I've done with these products. And I want you to go to Dr. Drew.com slash v. shred MD for 10% off. Again, that is Dr. Drew.com slash v shred MD. As I said, Dr. Chloe Carmack will be here in a few minutes with us. I forgot to mention her book. Can I say that why free speech matters and how? how to use it fearlessly. We'll talk about that.

But first, we're going to talk to Sasha Latapova. You can follow Sasha on X. It's Sasha underscore Latapova, L-A-T-Y-P-O-V-A, and Sasha Latapova.com. If you want a little science and art is both on her substack, Sasha, welcome back. Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you for inviting me.

So am I right that you want to throw in a little art into the scientific endeavor with your paintings? well they they are unrelated art is my passion really and something that i wanted to do instead of this uh you know i i love talking to you but i didn't want to be a media personality i wanted to be an artist what i don't understand what i don't understand is how you have the time to write those scorching substacks and paint that's the part that that's the forget the fact that i like your paintings But that you can do both is like, to me, like, that's a thing. Yeah, I also mountain bike and ski.

Physical and mental horsepower. All right. So let's just start with Operation Warp Speed and what Donald Trump seemed to be signaling on that social media post, which I know a lot of people were sort of relieved to see. And a lot of people were, I'm not sure everyone really understood what he was saying. and you're my go-to. So what is he, what is he's expecting? What is being hidden?

What was he being told and what should he be told? Mm-hmm. Okay, so before I address this tweet specifically, I think I need to set the context. And actually, I'm glad that you used a clip from Dr. Kirk Moore. And this is very relevant. Dr. Moore is one of my subscribers. And I've talked to him for several years now.

and assisted in his legal fight with my materials. And he's one of the few people, his case is one of the few people who actually took these materials and used them very effectively. And I can say that it was instrumental to getting his case dismissed. In his court hearing, which lasted for a whole week before Pam Bondi dropped it, the information started coming out. that US government cannot afford to disclose. And this goes for both administrations, for Trump,

because it was started under Trump, and Biden, and Trump again. So specifically in the court testimony on Thursday of that week, two people were testifying on behalf of the state, on behalf of prosecution of Dr. Moore, Chris Dugger from ex-CDC staffer, high level, and Gary Disbrow from Barda, a biomedical advanced research and development authority, who are responsible for countermeasures,

which are all of these MRNA shots are countermeasures. And Trump administration can't bring themselves up to even mention this word, and this word is heavily, heavily censored. And this is the information they can't afford to disclose. So what we're just going to talk to the testimony of Dugger and Disbrow, and I published on this, is that, first of all, chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear weapons, pathways were used to push mRNA so-called vaccines, they're not vaccines, on the market. COVID response overall is an ongoing

military campaign ongoing. It has not stopped. We still have COVID emergency. Prap Act declaration is extended until end of 29. So we're still under the same Seaburn military campaign powers. Health care system overall was used as an unknowing army of food soldiers to implement deliberately harmful HHS protocols, both hospital murders and then, of course, these hugely poisonous MRNA shots, countermeasures. And since these two persons just started testifying, they brought up a very, very dangerous testimony for the US government. On Friday, state attorney called them back and tried to get them to recant or change their language that didn't go quite well. But the genie is already out of the bottle. And so on Saturday, Pam Bondi dropped the

case. Now, Trump is tweeting that he needs to see Pfizer data somehow to figure out whether this operation worse feed was as brilliant as he sought or not. I don't understand what data he needs to see because Pfizer, as you know, has been foyer many, many times. The Pfizer data started coming out and being published since 2021. I was extensively publishing on it. Numerous authors have published on it. Naomi Wolf wrote the whole book of Pfizer papers. Everybody read it.

There's extensive analysis available of that data. It's definitively 100% known that these shots are extremely toxic. They don't produce any efficacy. They have negative efficacy, meaning that they're designed to produce the disease they're alleged to prevent, and so forth. So I don't understand why is Trump banned from the internet? How come every layperson who wanted to know what's going on figured out very quickly, and he can't? And so now, of course, the propaganda messaging is he was lied to, oh my God, breaking news, Trump was lied to by Fauci. and Berks and whoever, and, you know, 5D, Chess, Grossmeister cannot possibly figure it out,

and now he needs again to see Pfizer data. So that's my point. Why is he talking about this? What are they doing? Well, remains to be seen. But I've put out a tweet, comparing this to the Epstein file fiasco, and I am very, very worried that this is going in the same direction? Or is he setting up this split so he doesn't have the blush of responsibility for the warp speed debacle, so to speak? In other words, he's setting himself up as a wait, I was lied to, these are the guys that did it.

Let me see this data now. Whether he's seen it or not, he's sort of setting up that best case scenario for his government. But why is nobody except you, it seems like, talking about Prep Act and Barta? Well, that's a good question. As I said, you know, this information is kryptonite to this whole campaign. As you can see, that led Pam Bondi drop in the case. But nothing somehow leads Pam Bondi to recognize that, for example, Brooke Jackson has been fighting to bring out the case against Pfizer and their fraud, which we all know.

Yes, they have committed fraud, but somehow, you know, you see the difference, right? When it's threatening them that the public will realize what's going on with this military campaign, they drop the case. Otherwise, they're just pretending nothing is happening. And so that's my main criticism of Trump, of Maha, of current administration, is this staunch denial of the obvious. And anybody can go look up the existing pre-Pact declaration. Anybody can go look up the PrEP Act law and what it is about. It's a license to kill. And it strips us of our constitutionally protected rights.

It violates constitution in numerous ways. And the only person in Congress who is talking about it is Thomas Messi. And nobody else even. So he actually started a process to repeal PrEP Act, although I'm sure it has, like, it's not going to go anywhere. but at least he acknowledged that this is the problem. What was it that was set on the stand that was so threatening to the government? So I can give you some quotes.

Specifically, Dugger and his brow testified that this is a quote from, so first of all, the distribution plan, the development was Department of Defense operation. Department of Defense and Palantir, which is Peter Thiel's company, the Big Brother that they're building, the totalitarian surveillance company. They had staff, their own staff, on the manufacturing floor of all six Operation Warp Speed companies. And I also separately can corroborate this because I've been talking to an insider at Moderna in their Boston facility, and he confirmed this. They had a secret, well, secret classified DARPA office inside Maderna, only accessible to DARPA personnel and those with special clearance. Then Disbrow also testified that they compared people who refused vaccines

and also doctors who did not follow HHS orders as military combatants. And that's why Dr. Kirk Moore was so zeal. prosecuted for writing vaccine cards to people who wanted them. And he was facing 35 years in jail, by the way. And the prosecution went for years. He spent about a million dollar defending himself. It went through a whole week of trial. Why?

Because he was treated as a military combatant under this law, under this Prap Act, countermeasures, military campaign law. And so are all of us who refused vaccines. They also testified that they did not, that their military, when they meet with the enemy, that specific words were used. When they encounter the enemy, their plans go out of the window typically, and they also confirmed that they did not expect the 25% refusal rate. And that was one of the kind of obstacles to their plans. All kinds of military language, they compared, by the way, vaccines and everything else that they purchased under these defense production. contracts to bullets and military supplies.

Those are specific words that they said in court. It's all available in transcript now. And I highly encourage every journalist who thinks of themselves as investigative journalist on these matters to look it up, obtain that transcript and read it. You mentioned, you said something about the vaccine that I have trouble believing, which that it was designed to harm people like bullets. Explain that to me. Why would the organization charge with protecting the population want to harm the population?

Well, so they need to testify to that. I can't get into their heads, but I can give you circumstantial evidence on which I also published. One of the people I follow on X, Jessica Rojas, published the document that she foyer from the United States government, which is their financial projections for next 75 years. And one of the pages that she had to fight to get extra hard

was financial sensitivity analysis, which is three scenarios, high, medium, low, and varying those assumptions and see what the U.S. government budget looks like. And under all scenarios, they have massive shortfall. And it shows definitively that even if we have a growing population, high fertility rate, and young population, you know, replacing older ones, which would seemingly say, well, that's a good thing. They can pay to the Social Security and then Social Security won't collapse. That still doesn't work.

The U.S. government still has a massive shortfall. Why? That's exactly because, you know, the assumptions about economic theory is telling you that younger population is better. all based on the fact that young population is healthy. In reality, our young population is, first of all, born unhealthy because mothers get vaccinated more and more and more. And then they are made further unhealthy by about 70 shots that CDC prescribes to every baby

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under any projection, U.S. government sees the shortfall. Why they refuse to stop vaccinations is because U.S. government doesn't work for the people. It works for the corporations. As you've noticed, Peter Thiel and Susie Wiles pretty much control the U.S. government. Why? Because pharma companies and tech bros fund the administration of fund political campaigns. So that's why. So they are codependent on this massive poisoning of people with vaccines. and then harvesting what transpires because they see diseases with vaccines and then they harvest those diseases over people's shortened now lifespan that's in the nutshell what's going on and that's why this this last iteration with these MRNA shots is just basically the next cycle of

the same same drama I can't go I know better than to take you head on because you do your research, but it's hard for me to go where you've gone. I'm watching carefully for the evidence, and I hear you, and you've certainly been spot on on the prepback and DARPA. It's the first person I'd heard that about. Yeah, I know. I hear you, but I'm slow. I'm slow.

Ask Naomi Wolf. She's always on my case. It does want me to, it'll lead me to sort of talk about some other topics, though, because of your pharma background. explain to me why we give the hepatitis B vaccine to newborns. Oh, yeah, that's a great question. It's a great question. It just confirms what I just just said.

And I encourage you, I mean, I understand it's doing hard to catch out for busy people with, you know, barrage of information. We have to drink from a fire hose right now. But it's exactly the same thing. So they need to see the disease to make those children sick so that they can harvest them through the health care system that they control and profit from. And then those profits drive the stock prices and the capital gains fund political campaigns.

So that's the cycle. That's the situation cycle. Is there any way that construct that you're seeing, the way you describe it, it sounds premeditated. And that's what I'm really struggling with. Well, but is there a way in which it is sort of, just the way things have evolved and having difficulty undoing

because of the motivational financial benefits? Well, of course they evolved. You know, most of the participants, as I said, are unknowing participants. It's an army of food soldiers, this healthcare system. Most of the people who work at CDC are also unknowing. Although, you know, it's obvious that a lot of people like Paul Offutt who just got fired, thank God,

very much they know what they're doing. Now, this whole strategy of sickening population with vaccines developed for a long, long time. So many people don't realize where the roots are. And it takes digging and digging for years. My colleague Catherine Watt has done it. She traced vaccine-related law changes in the United States for 200 years, starting in late 1700s. And it is when you read her research, which is a lot, but she has compiled very good compilations and summaries for people to, to get up to speed quickly.

It becomes very, very clear that this strategy was there from the start. For example, vaccines are not regulated. None of the vaccines are regulated. Countermeasures is another layer of it, even more. So it's more, even more removal of liability, even more on regulation. But vaccines have never been regulated as drugs. And I, as a drug development professional, I did not know it. This is how well they hide it.

And this is how long back it goes. So I only figured this out after I started looking into it and after I got in touch with Catherine. But vaccines have been unregulated by Virus Toxin Act in 1902. It precedes formation of the FDA by several decades. And FDA was not in charge of vaccines until 1970s. And every time a new drug regulation law came into place, it always explicitly carved out vaccines and referred back to the Virus Toxin Act, which never regulated them. It only said facility will be licensed.

It's similar to licensing manufacture of wine or beer, same kind of a licensing of a facility. But the precise recipe of the beer or wine is not regulated because it's not possible. It's an organic, natural material. And in case of vaccines, it's putrid and rotten matter that's collapsing and falling apart and causing disease, and they add metals to it, and they add all kinds of nefarious things to it, and now LNPs. So, as I'm saying, from 1902, the Congress said, this is just like a brewery, a bottling facility, and then since then, it's always been carved out from drug regulation.

Why do other countries go along with this, if that's so? Because of money. So the same money and military power. So everyone is basically dependent. I mean, everyone, I mean, the major Western governments are dependent on the central banking and dollars reserve currency, and U.S. military force and NATO forces and other, you know, five eyes and so forth, they're there to enforce the dollar as a reserve currency.

And so the governments get all broke. They're all, you know, in debt continuously. And they will just implement whatever they are told to from the central location. World Health Organization is my understanding who recommended the Hepatitis B vaccine of day one of life, which made so no sense. I was in and around the development of the Hep B vaccine. My residency director was very involved with it. And we were interested in developing that vaccine for vertical transmission in China, mother-to-child transmission in China, where they had a real problem with it. That's what we were thinking about.

And then all of a sudden, the World Health Organization requires it for one-year-old. when there's not even, there's a zero probability. If the mom had hepatitis B in this country and we didn't know it, all those doctors would go to jail. Forget malpractice, they'd go to jail because we test that routinely in anybody at risk. So if a child needs hepatitis B vaccine, we know when the child needs it because the mom has FB. Everybody else does not need it. It's people that it was designed for health care workers and ivory drug users, not for one day olds.

So already to me that is the most bizarre thing. in the world that we do that. Do you think, and there has been some recent data about this, that that is a significant link to the autism problem? Absolutely. Well, not just a HB vaccine, but as you know, now they're getting jabbed with multiple jobs at birth. So vitamin K shot, and all of them contain, as I said,

rotting matter, which is end proteins. Proteins start all the anaphylactic type reactions, which is all food allergies, you know, peanut, oil allergy, shellfish, gluten allergy, chicken, rice, corn, all of that is the proteins in the vaccines. Now, they also have B, including K-shot and all these other shots that they give them, all contain various metals. It used to be mercury, was causing very, very severe autism. Then they replaced it with aluminum. It also causes autism, maybe not as severe, but still it's, you know, it's causing it.

and then other metals that are there and other chemicals that are there, which is ethanol, BPL, well, also they have aborted fetal cells. They have monkey cells. It's a complete disaster from so many factors. So, yes, these shots are responsible for autism, 100% responsible for childhood cancer. Children do not have other risk factors. All these other risk factors for cancer, like small. smoking, drinking, eating bad food, exposure to carcinogenic substances in the environment,

they take time to accumulate. A one-year-old or two-year-old, even if they ate sugar all their life, they didn't accumulate enough to cause cancer. So all of it is vaccines. Well, I mean, you know, glioblastomas and retinoblastomas and, you know, their childhood cancers existed before vaccines. They did. if you're saying that the drop down

and the age of vaccine, like colon cancers and young people, that has yet to be explained. And the early ones, I mean, if they did exist, I've written, you know, I've written about it extensively. There are numerous authors, doctors from

1900s, early early, you know, early 2000. So they all say, you know, who are quoted saying, I've never seen cancer and children until they started mass vaccinating. Personally, I've never never seen cancer and children until I got to the U.S. I've never seen autism. I didn't know autism even existed until I got to the U.S. in the 90s and I watched the movie Rain Man.

And at that point, I was like, what is it? And so, I'm telling you, if you go to third world countries with low vaccination coverage, they still exist, you will see that children eat garbage, they live in terrible conditions, and they're healthy. And it's, you know, I'm worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I mean, I don't want hepatitis B vaccine to be outlawed because there are babies of mothers with hepatitis B who would benefit from the vaccine. And that's generally sort of my feeling is that, you know, medicine, we are, you know, all that farmer research you did, those are dangerous things. Every time we pull out our prescription pad, we are thinking in terms of fighting disabling fatal disease and what risk is worth fighting that fatal or disabling condition. Not make life better, which is sort of the weird way we've gotten lately,

which is just like everything pharmaceuticals can just make life better or make us live forever. I don't understand what we're even thinking about it. But it is a risk-reward analysis each and every time. And during COVID, that was completely dismantled. And it was so the wildest thing to me that the very one sort of credo that we were, we absolutely cut our teeth on was do no, harm, which was a shorthand way of saying, make sure the risk is worth the reward. Yes, exactly. So do no harm is a fundamental principle that the medicine needs to be based on it.

So it's from Hippocratic O's, which interestingly, they don't do in medical schools anymore. And this is also deliberate. And what we've observed in the COVID response, you know, drama, is exactly that. they want to remove ethics and morality from medicine and science and subjugate medicine and science to their materialistic pursuit of their ends such as, you know, wealth and power, disregarding the cost and the tragedy of human lives lost and massive injuries. And as you've observed for the last five years, all administrations, Trump, Biden, Trump, consistently ignore this death toll and injury toll. They ignore the victims. They ignore the injured. They go meet with pharma and do these

tours of holding pharma's hands and asking them what we can do better. But they consistently, consistently deny that the injured and dead are the reality. And that's where they're driving the entire healthcare field into this framework where they're calling it gold standard science. but gold standard science talking points conspicuously exclude any Hippocratic O's principles, Nuremberg Code principles, ethical principles, morality, and all that. Because they're telling you, that's their plan. That's where they're going. There's an epidemiological observation, too.

I'm going to step away from your DARPA prep observations and just talk about straight, as though they were playing it straight. that as the seriousness of the illness has gone way down, so the need for the vaccine has gone down, so the risk tolerance should be far less. We have had an accumulation of adverse events, and that epidemiology in the face of the reduced risk tolerance has not been, I haven't seen a single study that sort of elucidated that

from an epidemiological perspective, because I think you would find that there would be, a massive, or maybe there would be sort of two populations, maybe there's still be some elderly or at-risk people that would still be worth that risk, but that the accumulated adverse event, again, accumulated.

We're not, no one has assessed that yet. It's an cumulative effect. Why aren't they, step away from DARPA and prep for a second, why wouldn't they assess that? That's a great question. I've observed also that they are resistant, very, very resistant to

assessing this risk benefit profile and again they need to be asked directly I've voiced my theory as to why they're doing it they want to remove the ethical they want to remove the ethical principles that

value individual human life that's the number one goal of this whole well stop there wait wait stop there I do believe that public health is moving that direction public maybe it's not DARPA maybe it's not the military maybe it's this gigantic public health morass that we've created.

Maybe they're the ones pushing things in that direction. They're very much tied together in the same administration. You will see that, for example, you know, as you were asking about me about Jim O'Neill, well, he's one of the founders of Barda, which is this military agency, one of the founders of pandemic preparedness. And again, this mentality, okay, I don't want to talk about DARPA too much, but this mentality of, first of it's a communitarian mentality. It means that

your personal health risk is you're very healthy and you're not facing any of the risk. You're not facing hepatitis B risk, for example. But they will force you to take that to save some theoretical grandma somewhere who's on drugs or something.

I don't know. That's right. Okay. So I see this. I see exactly this. I think you're absolutely correct about it. Where that's coming from, we could argue about, but I see exactly this thing. So my next question always then is what has the CDC become? Because CDC

was originally designed to eliminate malaria in the United States through sort of making, helping policies around health care, advising local affiliates. They've always had an advisory function. They just published the morbidity, mortality, weekly report. They did some research. They did some epidemiology.

Since when is the CDC involved in health care? It's through the public health, which is sort of trying to take over health care. Absolutely. I could not agree more. First of all, people need to realize that public health is not health. Public health is not health. Public health is a statistical exercise, number crunching exercise. And yes, traditionally it was we collect data from historical events because we can't prospectively call anything pandemic. It's stupid. You can't predict what a virus is going to do. You have to collect data retrospectively only. And that's how they were assessing whether something is an epidemic or a pandemic, but based on historical analysis comparing to previous seasons. And so that was their role to collect the data accurately, to disseminate it accurately so that other people can integrate it into their analysis, research, and thinking. That was all.

Now somehow they're given these extraordinary powers to dictate what gets injected into every child. and then you see the theatrics and drama and throwing up, you know, just this Dr. Daskalakis who just departed the CDC, it's a whole other level of evil. And the pull off it, that's a whole other level of evil. So I don't know how they grasp those powers when. Yeah.

Yeah. That's right. This is a self-righteous group who believes, and nothing ever more dangerous than a self-righteous organization doing good for society. That's how social ills get done always. And this is an example of that.

I would urge you to get really focused on this public health thing because the evidence is everywhere that that's what's going on. And every physician feels it. And it's like, what the hell is going on here? What's above that, you have to convince people like me over time. But I think you have no trouble convincing people that there's something very, very wrong with this whole notion of public health, and it's all delivered in

because we care. You don't care about the care. You only care about your kids. You don't care about the rest of the community. No, we all care. We all care. But there's a better way to do this. There's a much better way to do this. Oh, my God. I mean, what have I been doing for 40 years?

I completely agree. I will be writing more about this, researching more about this, and collaborating with my colleague, Catherine, because she has all the history of what happened with CDC and what laws and how they... The history of it is fascinating. I brought this up a few times since the COVID mess,

which is like, why did all these people suddenly have master's in public health have? Where did the MPH come from? Why are they doing that? Why do these people that are neurosurgeons or whatever the pathologists have a master's problem? Why did they need that? Why did they do that? It's an indoctrination. You've got to dig into what is in that training and what it is done to those people's minds and what the goal was of people pushing MPHs on practitioners. My suspicion is to get them of what Lincoln used to call a public mind to soften them to this idea that they give up the care of their patients and start taking the care of the world,

which is just irrational. It's not how we do it. Nothing is more efficient than a well-trained, caring patient, and a properly motivated informed patient, excuse me, well-trained, caring physician, and a motivated informed patient. That's your best unit. Nothing gets better than that.

Everything you put on top of that screws it up. Not that public health shouldn't exist. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that public health taking over health care is not health care, as you say. So I think that's the mantra. Okay, well, listen, this has been very interesting, and things are coming into focus for myself.

I'll show you, you'd be happy to know. But I do take my time. The last thing I want to do is, you know, sweep into things with any opinion I have. I'm trying to be very circumspect and deliberate and cautious about things. But what's coming up for you? Where do you want people to go to find you other than to enjoy your art on your substack? So I actually want to, you know, I always want to write less about this military stuff because I've written a lot of things. I want to write more about science and health, and I have written some interesting.

I started investigating very, very interesting things about, especially water, role of proper hydration, proper water, Zeta potential, and effect on health. And so those are my kind of stretch goals to try to get rid of that noise, but it keeps coming. And people can find my publications on my substack, sasha latipova.substack.com, and I publish a couple times a week, you know, regular schedule, and also I post on X as well. That Zeta potential stuff is interesting. Give people just a tiny snip of what you're talking about there.

Well, so I've gone to a personal experience of, you know, as I said, I'm a mountain biker, and I live at high altitude. I mountain bike between 7,500 feet and 8,500 feet. And, you know, I started noticing decline in my performance, which is so that I'm 54, okay, maybe that's normal, whatever. And then I encountered this Zeta-Aid stuff. And with the help of it, and it's very simple. It's just basically potassium citrate and baking soda in water.

But you're doing this protocol. I've been able to get athletic conditioning. I've never experienced in my life. I'm better athletically conditioned now than I've ever been. So define the Zeta potential. So define that what that is. Yeah. So Zeta potential is what ensures your stability of colloidal flow. And your blood is colloid. Colloid is a complex mixture. Like milk is a classical colloid. It's a mixture of water lipids proteins. Blood is 80% water and the rest of it is blood cells and proteins and other components of the blood. They are all separated by Zeta by negative charge. So that's what's called Zeta potential. So it's how it's the charges.

I always think of as charges on protein. Am I wrong about that? It's the charges of it flying around. On the cells, all the hydrophilic surfaces are lined with these charges, with these cells with negative charges. And negative, negative, you know, separates itself. And so it's like a traffic flow continuously without collisions, without, you know. So all those, when LNPs enter the bloodstream, for example, one of the, one of the, the effects is because LNPISA is positively charged. They strip Zeta potential immediately.

It's like toaster in the bathtub. And then you see these collisions and you see the blood that becomes like coffee grains. Everyone reported on this. The Rullo effects, thrombosis, clothes developing. All of that starts from collapse of Zeta potential. But also a whole bunch of things can affect it. And it's a big, big area of science that people need to pay attention to, and vaccines strip Zeta potential and lead to accelerated aging. So all of this leads to accelerated aging. If you want to wind your clock back, your Zeta needs to be in a good shape. Attention to your Zeta, your Zeta potential.

Okay, well, listen, it's always enlightened to speak with you. Please keep up the good work. And as I said, keep your flaming pen alive and well. and we continue to applaud from the sidelines and try to keep up, frankly. But appreciate it very much. We'll see you soon. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Dr. Drew. X on Sasha underscore Latipova is where you can follow her. We're going to take a little break. Please you support people to support us. We are very fortunate to have great supportive organizations, whether it's wellness or paleo or the products. I've got them at hand here that I take every day made with V-Sread.

we are deeply grateful for all of them. So what we're going to do after you hear from all of them, Dr. Chloe Carmichael, can I say that? Why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly? You can follow her at X-D-R-C-L-O-E and Dr.C-R-C-L-O-E and Dr.Cloy.com. We're going to talk a little bit about that shooter. And I don't know what Chloe's position is, but I'm interested to hear it after this.

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Go to Dr.Doo.com slash paleo valley for 20% off when you subscribe and 15% off your first order. That is Dr. Drew.com slash Paleo Valley. Hey, Dr. Drew. You want to spend the whole session talking about Dr. Drew? There you go. Even you call him Dr. Drew. Dr. Chloe Carmichael, welcome to the program. Tell us before we get into this conversation,

about can I say that and what people will learn from reading the book. Oh, no sound. Hold on. I think you're still muted from when you were listening to me and Sasha. There you go. Here I am. Thank you. So can I say that why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly is a book about the mental health benefits of free speech so that I'm guessing all your listeners probably love free speech already, but at least it gives people a way to answer. answer back if someone tries to say, oh, you have to be quiet because of hate speech and bullying. And it also does have some good techniques for speaking up, as well as for listening well and respectfully during disagreement, since both are important for healthy dialogue.

And you and I were with the Timcast talking about how not speaking up has allowed psychological training to be captured by concerns that are really not related to psychological training. So true. I mean, group think is actually facilitated by people being quiet. It's literally part of the textbook recipe for group think is when people are doing self-censorship, then there creates this illusion of unanimity where, you know, you think you're the only one who thinks the emperor has no clothes. But the more people that are silent than the crazier, you know, people start getting. So we have to speak. speak up. So I'm glad we're here to do that today. Yes. It's usually 10 or 20% that speak up. Be a part of it. So let's talk about this young individual that shot up a church. Did you see the video that that person put? I don't know what this person should be called. I don't know what to hear she. Because in the manifesto, this person is saying that they regret.

changing gender and it sounded like they were wanting to switch back so I don't know what the actual volition would be nor do I I I don't think we should be spending a lot of attention to that given this person's purpose or it created such a horrible crime but I'm wondering if you saw a little video before this all went down yeah I saw parts of it but you know like you I've really been focused on you know the outcome of it um a lot of it um a lot of of people are saying, you know, that it's wrong or irrelevant to reference the fact that this person was trans. I mean, again, everybody has their own way, I think, of identifying it. But for me, my interest in free speech also just has to do with speaking accurately and precisely. So

just my way of describing this person is a trans-identified male, meaning it's a man that identified as trans and, you know, wanted to be perceived as a woman. Although later in life, as you mentioned, even in writings, indicated that perhaps was changing his mind about that as well. So as far as his preferences on what to be called is one thing, as far as what he actually, you know, was was another. And when people say that it's irrelevant to even bring that up, I just, I think that's incorrect because, first of all, he shot up a Catholic school. And it's a fair point to say, you know, the Catholic Church has ideological differences with trans ideology. And so there would naturally be a friction. I believe that he also actually had, you know, pictures of Jesus with a,

with a, you know, crosshairs on his face. So to say that there was no, you know, possible component of this person's sexuality that was relevant here, I think is really missing something that even this person himself, you know, wanted us to see. And moreover, when we stop people from speaking openly and clearly and precisely, we stop people from forming social consensus and we actually interrupt their own thought process. So I'm a big one for just saying it like it is. The statements in the manifesto were it's that this person was feeling that he was sad that he'd been brainwashed.

He wish he hadn't let himself to be a brainwashed, which is a very specific and rather powerful suggestion. It wasn't just, hey, I'm musing, but maybe I didn't, maybe I made the wrong choice. It's like, no, I was brainwashed. That's sort of an extraordinary statement. Number one. Number two, I think it's important to talk about the trans identification because there were physicians treating this person. And my question to those physicians would be, is this person better now?

Did you make them better as a result of your treatment? Is this a good outcome? And if it's not a good outcome, what went wrong exactly, exactly what happened here? You need to do a post-mortem, morbidity mortality, weekly report sort of assessment of what went. down with this case and why it turned out so badly. And the fact, what I saw in that video was evidence of full-blown psychopathy. I didn't see psychosis so much, though that could have been embedded and all that. I saw psychopathy. Why did you miss that? Why did you treat this person? Why did you leave out the context for the condition you were treating for this individual? Or did you?

Did you do some things? We don't know for sure. But this all needs to be answered because this In my profession, this is not yours, Chloe, mine is missing their fundamental charge, which is to select, to select the right treatment for the right patient. That increases the probability of a good outcome. A correct patient, exactly what patient profile, exactly is going to benefit from exactly what treatment. And we don't seem to me, I don't seem to say we're doing none of that. No, I would totally agree with you.

and you raised an interesting point there about psychosis and psychopathy. So, you know, for your audience in case they're not sure what that means, psychosis is when we have a break with reality. Psychopathy is when, you know, we essentially numb out to the feelings of others, essentially. So, you know, it kind of like sociopathic, psychopathic, there's a lot of overlap there. What I would actually say, you know, since you also brought up the interesting point about brainwashing, is that it almost, in my view, as a clinical psychologist, is a form of psychosis for a man to believe he is a woman

because he grows his hair long and takes some hormones or whatever. And so I think this person may have in a sense been even coming out of a psychosis and, you know, recognizing, hey, I'm just a man with long hair. And in fact, he even said in his manifesto, I feel like I would just shave off or cut my hair. I'm so done with this. but that would be like admitting, you know, that I was wrong about all of this. So to your point as well, Dr. Drew, it's shocking yet not shocking to me that his, quote,

medical team didn't even have like some kind of a protocol in place with him. I believe they should with all people that go down this medical road, which frankly I don't, I have questions about it in the first place, but to at least give them an off ramp to say, hey, if you ever start to think this isn't for you, here's the normalized way to like get out of it. it seems, and I don't know, obviously, but it seems like that wasn't something that he was aware of. Oh, I'm sure that there's nothing like that being offered. But I'm going to push back a little bit on what you're saying about it being a psychotic,

is if you, you must not have yet encountered people that were the right patients who got the right treatment, because I know a number of them and they are, it does, it feels completely aligned. It feels like, oh, this is a condition. I'm really assessed, properly treated. Absolutely. I don't think that is psychotics. Just to make it super clear, because thank you that that's an important clarification. If you have a man, like, for example, Jenner, Bruce slash Caitlin Jenner, is fully aware that he is a man who has had a lot of cosmetic adjustments.

to make himself appear as if he's a woman, and mentally he likes to think of himself that way. But even he has made it clear, he would never try to take on a woman in sports. He knows that's not fair. Again, psychoticism is a break with reality. He knows exactly who he is and what he's doing. I think especially with teenagers,

because their perception of reality and their perception of their own identification, even as more fluid they're trying things on, And a lot of them are actually told that this will change their sex. They're actually told that, which I think is psychotic. And to drill, to maybe pile on to what you were saying about Caitlin, because I've talked to her about this, is what you will hear from people who are properly selected and properly treated is I have a condition and I have to take dangerous medication the rest of my life. and it's working for me. I would rather not.

And Caitlin said something specific to me. He said, but when you're dealing with me, don't even think about it. I'm also left-handed. So just put it in the same category as that because it's something I just have to live with. And I thought, oh, fine, no problem. And I know a number of people like that

that were carefully selected, carefully treated, and live... I mean, it's not an issue. It's like not even the object of discussion in their life. It's any more than I take high blood pressure medicine. You know, it's the same kind. of thing. But in a event, I want to go back to this kid. The cold-bloodedness of all of it was what jumped out at me. And my patients don't really have cold-blooded kinds of impulses. You know,

when they get psychotic or they get manic or they get addicted, they may do bad things, but they're not cold-bloodedness. It just, it just, I still, my hair stands up and the back of my next still when I think about that video. And yet, this person didn't continue shooting. They just shoot a couple times. I thought it was going to be based on that video. I thought he had potential to do just tremendous damage. What do you think happened there when the person, when he just stopped and shot himself,

I guess we were led to believe that's what happened? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Obviously, I think anyone who claims to know, you know, is a little maybe psychotic themselves, I guess, you know, as far as being outside of reality. I mean, I certainly don't know. However, I do think it's really important that we study exactly what medications he was on. And I don't even just mean whatever medications were part of this, you know, transplant. But, you know, maybe there's even something as simple as SSRIs and maybe there's drug interactions. Also, this person obviously did not even feel comfortable discussing with his own medical

team that he was not feeling on board with his own plan. So that tells me that he was in a great deal of isolation. It suggests, you know, maybe he was obviously having trouble communicating. And again, it's part of my whole interest in free speech is we know that when people are prone to violence, the first thing we want to do is help them learn to use their words. We want to teach them to speak their mind no matter what it might be so that they don't act out in violence. I can't help but wonder on some level if this was, as you said, a really psychopathic form of acting out. I believe that this person's mother at one point was a teacher at that school. I mean, I have no idea, but it could be that he wanted to have been one of those little Catholic

school children that just fit in and they had this beautiful life, but he couldn't have it and he was acting out very violently by just erasing them and then erasing himself. But I certainly don't know, obviously. All we can do is speculate, but I would really like to understand what was going on with his medical panel, as well as with his doctor communications, like you mentioned. Right. And then that be published so people can, not that he is, I guess, I guess it would be reasonable to publish it. And so people can learn from this and adjust their treatment plans.

Oh, I get sick when I think about this. It was a chilling thing. And as you were talking, I started thinking to myself, God, we have a problem with violence in this country. And it's not even guns. It's just violence. Is that something you're thinking at all about? You mentioned psychopathic acting out.

So much of the violence is in that kind of zone where it's either impulsive, you know, blackout, red out, white out kind of acting out, or actually some sort of annihilation impulse. What are your thoughts? Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, I think that there's a lot of this words or violence talk, or frankly, especially within the trans identity, you have people that say, if you don't respect my pronouns, you're, quote, threatening my existence. And so when we start saying things like words are violence, you are threatening my existence.

As I talk about in my book, you know, can I say that why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly? part of what I'm saying is that if we don't understand that words are actually not violence and no speaking up and calling that person trans is not hateful. What he did was hateful, but naming it and discussing it accurately is not hateful. Again, in fact, we need more speech, not less if we want to avoid violence. I believe a fair amount of the violence that we're having is because people are not communicating, number one, which just tends to facilitate people acting out violently, but combined with the fact that we're telling people that words are violence or silence is

violence or if you don't validate me, then you're threatening my existence. I think on some level people are acting out violently as what they think is a form of self-defense against words or opinions that they don't like. That's interesting. I want to pile on on your book a little bit, because the book is not just a little how to speak up. It's encyclopedic. It gets into very specific situations and lots of very specific advice for lots of circumstances

in which free speech matters. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. And I actually explore the trans issue, you know, quite a lot there. And, you know, I want to say as well, you know, based on what I said earlier, you know, if somebody wants to put on a dress, if a man wants to dress like a woman

or women wants to dress like a man, I don't consider that to be psychotic. What I consider to be psychotic is when someone starts literally believing that that's what they are. Or if when you want to talk about it with them, that they want to say that you're threatening their existence or, you know, who was that Congresswoman,

Penny or Peggy somebody that was wearing the t-shirt that said, you know, protect trans kids at all costs and it literally had like a bloody knife on it. And this was one of our, you know, lawmakers. So I think words are getting weaponized, but not in the direction that people think. It's actually, I think, more hateful to try to silence speech than it is, you know, whatever is often being called as hate speech is in many cases, just opinions people don't like. And then, I mean, what an anxiety-provoking way to live your life, too, right? To think that if you say the wrong thing,

It's like hitting someone with your car or if, you know, God forbid you hear the wrong thing. It's like someone threatened your existence. I mean, Dr. Drew, you and I both know that if a client comes to us and says, I'm thinking of going to physically hurt my neighbor, we have a duty to warn. But if our patient comes to us in confidentiality and says, I'm going to go tell my neighbor something really nasty, then we would be literally breaking the law if we violated that confidence. And so people really need to understand words are not violence. And I think that's actually ironically what's leading to some of the violence we see today.

I wonder why there's so much violent rhetoric around this one topic. It's kind of interesting. There's got to be a history there where somebody really massage that because it's not a topic that naturally would have to be discussed with violent rhetoric. It's just isn't it. Two things. Well, first of all, it's the only group where they say. say you're threatening my existence. If you don't say or perceive me the way I want you to, you are threatening my existence. Again, we're getting into self-defense territory there.

If we take that literally, that basically means you're threatening to kill me. So to answer your question, why do we see so much violence there? These are people who, you know, to use this person's word brainwashed, who may have even been brainwashed to believe that they have to, quote, defend their life at all cost if somebody's not pronouning them the right way. And then moreover, a lot of them are on a lot of drugs, a lot of, you know, somewhat experimental. I would question the health even of some of these drug protocols, plus many of them are on other psychiatric medications as well. And we may not fully understand the way that all of those drugs are cocktailing inside of them.

Yeah. The medication, again, this is part of, there's a bigger topic here in this country where medications are supposed to make life great, life better. Medications are designed. They're risky propositions, often dangerous propositions, to address disabling and fatal illness. That's it. And if you have a severe condition or you could harm yourself if we don't treat you

certain medications, okay, it's worth the risk. but they are not making you healthier. That's not the case. It may be creating an alignment that you can be safe with, that it's carefully managed, and risk rewards are constantly assessed and carefully followed up and asking lots of questions is the point. The doctor needs to be there and follow and check and double check

and make sure their treatments are working and not harming the patient. It's not just simply making life better. medicines are dangerous, all medicine. There's some data that came out today that associated acetaminophen, Tylenol during pregnancy with autism. That makes perfect sense to me. Medicines are dangerous. We take them when the risk is worth it.

Well, Chloe, listen, it's always fun to talk to you. What else is on your radar these days? Well, I'm super excited. I've been doing a lot of speaking around the new book. So if people are interested in, you know, book clubs or anything like that. I'm super excited to just connect with people. You know, just the more that I talk about free speech and the more that I speak freely, I almost feel like I've come out of the closet or something. And so my whole point about the mental health benefits of free speech is that I believe

your brain functions better. Your cognitions are clear. You're more emotionally present. So I've been on a real kick with that, you know, just talking and connecting with people about it. And it's definitely been good for me. So thanks again. for giving me the chance to talk about it. It is important. Look at what's going on in Europe right now. It's just hard to believe. That is really the fact that we have these prescriptions in the law

give us the opportunity to go forward and defend free speech and to talk about things that may be uncomfortable, but we have to be able to do it. I think the next interesting topic around free speech will be hate speech, whether it's a real thing or not. I haven't formally it in my opinion yet, but I'm hearing people say there should be no hate. hate speech. It's just, it's just speech. Speech is speech and we may not like it. We may feel like

it's hateful. Do you have an opinion on that? Yeah, I do. So I think absolutely we can say hateful things. And in fact, there are things I hate and I should be able to talk about it. You know, if anybody can say that there's truly nothing that they hate, I mean, I could start naming, do we hate that this man just went and shot and killed a bunch of Catholic school children while they were praying. I hate that. But interestingly, though, even if we want to get into like the type of hate speech that we would all agree is bad. Okay, so one of the things I talk about in my book actually is people that have left the KKK, people that have left being, you know, wrapped up in the Taliban, people that have actually left truly bad hateful groups. You know why they

leave, it's so interesting. Most of them will say that they left because somebody talked to them, somebody listened to them, somebody let them say all the things. In fact, there's a man, I wish I could remember his name. His name is Daryl Something. I can't remember his last name, but I talk about him in the book. He's a, he's a black jazz artist, and he has a collection of over a dozen KKK hoods that have been handed to him he made a life's work of sitting as a black man with multiple members of the kKK listening to them and through those conversations changing them now it is not his responsibility to change them just like as a woman it's not my job to go out there and change people who are misogynist i'm not saying that but at the same time we have to understand that there is a

healing power in dialogue and people can say things that are hateful we can even perhaps certainly hate things and we should hate them but the last thing we want to do is tell people not to talk about it because all that does is make it fester and cause them to act out chloe thank you so much go to chloe car michael d r cloy dr cloy on x uh and dr cloy dot com and can i say that thank you so much dr drew great to be with you and free speech today dot com is another super easy way to find the book. Excellent.

Thanks so much, Clark. And coming up for us, I've got a call in to see if I have jury duty tomorrow. I assume not. Alice and Morrow in tomorrow. She's always fun. A salty cracker coming in on Thursday. Zach Levi and Bacha

Angar Sargon are together in one show. It would be very interesting. Joe Latipo coming in towards the end of the month. We got a lot coming up. Again, if you want to make any suggestions, contact at doctoru.com, but real estate is at a premium on this show. We have such great guests coming up. Let me quickly look at what you guys are discussing on the restream and on the rants. A lot of DARPA and Prep Act talk in the Rumble rant room.

Roseanne is coming, but we just had to rebook her. So it's most likely probably going to be next week. Roseanne's going to be on the show. That's what I'm, well, most likely you're saying because she's canceled so many times. She told us a thousand percent, thousand percent should be here next week. That's what. So I'm hanging on to that. Roseanne, you promised.

I'm holding you to it. We're quoting her right now, live on the air. Susan is in the jury box right now. She got jury duty this week too. I got tagged. I got a call in a few minutes to see if I'm, I'm going to try to reschedule it if I'm in for tomorrow. That's ridiculous. All right, everybody, thank you so much for being here.

And thank you to our guest, as always been always this. I learn, I learn my worldview comes into focus over time because of this show. I learn a lot. I hope you're learning a lot too. We'll see you tomorrow at 2 o'clock. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only.

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