Ask Dr. Drew - Future Of Remote Work: Dr. Gleb Tsipursky on Hybrid Jobs & Virtual Offices – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 94

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

At the height of the pandemic, employees left their offices to work from home. Now many companies are requiring their return – but do offices actually make workers more productive? Dr. Gleb Tsipursky is CEO of the future of work consultancy Disaster Avoidance Experts, which specializes in helping analytical leaders adopt a hybrid-first model, instead of incrementally improving on the traditional office-centric model. He is the best-selling author of seven books. Find more from Dr. Tsipursky at https://DisasterAvoidanceExperts.com  SPONSORED BY • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation ( https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/FirstLadyOfLove). THE SHOW: For over 30 years, Dr. Drew Pinsky has taken calls from all corners of the globe, answering thousands of questions from teens and young adults. To millions, he is a beacon of truth, integrity, fairness, and common sense. Now, after decades of hosting Loveline and multiple hit TV shows – including Celebrity Rehab, Teen Mom OG, Lifechangers, and more – Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio in California. On Ask Dr. Drew, no question is too extreme or embarrassing because the Dr. has heard it all. Don’t hold in your deepest, darkest questions any longer. Ask Dr. Drew and get real answers today. This show is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All information exchanged during participation in this program, including interactions with DrDrew.com and any affiliated websites, are intended for educational and/or entertainment purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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worth a slam dunk. An authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 And my guest today is Dr. Gleb Siburski.

He's a cognitive psychologist. He will teach us a little bit about all of our cognitive distortions that i think is at the root cause of so many of the conflicts that we're dealing with today in addition he is the ceo of the future of work consultancy disaster avoidance experts specializing in helping leaders adopt a hybrid model to work all the work from home initiatives have resulted in people sort of fighting to stay home or employers demanding people go back to work. All the work from home initiatives have resulted in people sort of fighting to stay home or employers demanding people go back to work. And maybe there's a hybrid in between. We'll talk a little bit about that. But more importantly, I'm really interested

in digging into so many of the distortions that are resulting in many of us having conflicts today and how to resolve conflict. I was interviewing another guest earlier today on the Dr. Drew podcast talking about, well, we did it with Dave McCraney. We were talking about building relationships. We were talking about making contact. We were talking about being open and listening and getting rapport and not trying to demand that everyone adopt our opinions. We're going to get into that just after this little intro. Be right back. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl

and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Hey, everyone, and welcome.

We appreciate you being here. I was just looking at the restream and somebody slapdashed saying he had another seizure due to Welbutrin. If you're having medication-induced seizure, you should not be on said medication. Be sure to talk to your doctor about that. That is, anybody having any unpleasant side effects from their medications should be immediately fighting to get something that does work and doesn't cause unpleasant side effects. That's the way it goes. He's back again, Slap, saying, I was told if I don't have any withdrawal symptoms after three days from alcohol, I don't need benzos. Oh, well, you're having alcohol withdrawal seizures, not Wilbutrin-related seizures.

Let's see. That is not necessarily true because the peak for seizure from alcohol withdrawal is about day three to five and then there's another peak at two weeks uh most people don't continue them for those two weeks but i certainly wouldn't be driving a car for at least two weeks all right so let's leave that be uh and let's get on to the topic at hand we're talking to dr gleb sabersky uh let's put his new book up there, Caleb. The new book, let's see if we can get that up there, is called Leading Hybrid and Remote Teams. It's a little bit controversial these days where we should be working. It sounds like Elon Musk has strong feelings about being in

the workplace. Maybe that's true with engineering teams. Maybe it's true with finance teams. I don't know. I don't know the answer to all these things uh but i do know that our brain arm is put together in such a way that it has features not even glitches these are features of the brain that most people don't even seem to understand and i want to get into a little bit of that first so let's welcome our guest gleb sabersky gleb thanks for coming here thank you again for inviting me, Dr. Drew. And it's funny, you're mentioning David McCraney. He's a great person, one of my good friends. Actually wrote the foreword for my other book we talked about on your podcast earlier, The Blind Spots Between Us, How to Overcome Unconscious Mind Bias and Build Better Relationships.

Great guy. There it is. There it is. Well, let's start on some of those blind spots. We'll just start with that, and then we'll get to the workplace after that. So Dave is not really – he's very fascinated by cognitive distortions and all the things that you have studied. But he has decided, at least the last time I spoke to him, at least his book now, which is How Minds Change, is about rapport and connection and contact and sort of collaborating with people there's David Craney's book rather than demanding that somebody regular argumentation and demanding that somebody adopt your point of view or your position. Uh, is that your sort of understanding of these things as well?

Absolutely. So I have a methodology that I described in my book, the blind spots between Between Us, called IGRI. Emot this, arguments were actually evolved in the ancestral Savannah environment when we lived in small tribes of 50 to 150 people to help us build social status within the tribe and help us convince the tribe to do something. So the people in that environment who were able to successfully convince their tribal members to pursue a certain course of action, those were the people who got social status and those were the people who were able to then take a path forward.

There's a reason that so many of our politicians are lawyers, not scientists or psychologists like us, unfortunately. So that is where the leaders come from, arguments. Those are not meant to change minds. Those are meant to mobilize people around you who are like-minded, not change-minded. So if you want to change minds, you need to use Yggdrasil or some other techniques. But that's where let's start by talking about what arguments are and realizing that when you argue with someone, you're never trying to change the mind, no matter how much it

feels to you like you are. You're just trying to browbeat them, and you're trying to get others on your side. You're trying to vanquish, trying to vanquish somebody, I guess. That's right. You're trying to dominate them. That's what happens.

Yeah. And so I've noticed these days the topic of, I'm amazed, I tend to gravitate towards, it's automatic with me. I gravitate to what I see as the sort of i'm amazed i i sort of i tend to gravitate towards it's automatic with me i gravitate to what i see this the sort of important phenomenon of our time i think i was deep in the aids epidemic when that was going i was you know obviously in drugs and alcohol when that was still going crazy but lately i have found myself into this field of persuasion and contact and rapport building. It just feels like that's the problem of the day, of the hour, certainly.

But persuasion in particular is something that I didn't know to use, argumentation isn't quite enough the right word, from, I guess argumentation is a better word right now. Right, exactly. So persuasion is actually meant to change somebody's mind. So e-grip, I mentioned, that's a technique I developed to actually persuade people effectively, and there are other techniques. But let's go for this technique, and we can see how it's going to be very different from argumentation. And the first thing in how it's different is that it starts with emotions. E is for emotions. And you want to focus on people's emotions because the reason that people are opposing

you is fundamentally not rational or logical. If we were rational and logical creatures, we would be convinced by facts, and arguments would work. That is not what works. We're not convinced by facts. We're convinced by how we feel, not what we think. So if you want to persuade someone, if you want to get them to change your mind, you don't need to convince them with facts.

You need to get them on your side, and for that, you need to tap into their emotions. So the first part of eGrip, Emotions, Goals, Rapport, Information, Positive Reinforcement, is figuring out their emotions. And you need to do that by using techniques like empathy. So let's be very clear what empathy is and what empathy isn't. Empathy means understanding other people's emotions. It's not sympathy, which means caring about their emotions. You might or might not care about them, but you need empathy. Empathy meaning understanding

how they feel. So that's very different, very clear. So you're going to use empathy to try to figure out how they feel. And you can do that through reading their tone of voice, their facial expression, what they're saying and what they're not saying all of these things we can dive deeper into that so that's empathy so you're figuring out what they're saying using active listening empathetic listening trying to figure out the emotional tones that are leading them to make whatever truth claims they're making then so you move on from empathy to g goals you figure out what goals you share now if you think you think about it, with anyone in your life, even your worst enemy, you probably share about 80% of the goals.

You want a happy life for yourself, right? You want generally people to be well off unless you're a psychotic maniac. You want our country to go to a better place and you want people to be healthy and happy and have peaceful existence, right? So those are broad things you can share. And you want to figure out on the specific issue at hand, the kind of things you share with someone. And I'll go for the example.

Next, you build up rapport. So rapport in this case means showing the other person that you are on their side, that you care about their perspective, their point of view, their goals. Only four is where the I, information, is where you bring up information that might be potentially unpleasant for them. So here, after you got on their side, you understand their emotions, you share goals, you bring up information and finally after they change their mind somewhat toward your perspective you give

them positive reinforcement for changing their mind and saying how tough it is to be i'll give you an example so i was at a dinner party and i was talking to somebody who was very strongly supportive of raising the minimum wage to 18 not even 15 18 so they were very much kind of raising the minimum wage to $18, not even $15, $18. So they were very much kind of on that left side, which said, I really want to raise the minimum wage. So I talked to them, I figured out their emotions, and they had an emotion of fairness and kind of anger at the capitalist Wall Street, who he thought were usurping and exploiting the masses. So that's one. So I figured out the emotions. Then goals. I talked about, well, what are the goals that he's trying to reach? And we have a number of shared goals. We want everyone to be better off,

especially I care about poor people. I want them to be better off. And people who are earning minimum wage, we want them to be better off. Then we got to rapport. And we talked about that. We talked about how poor people kind of get the shaft in this country, working at minimum wage, right? We want them to be better off. Then we got to rapport. And we talked about that. We talked about how poor people kind of get the shaft in this country, working at minimum wage, often not being able to make ends meet at that situation. So that's rapport. So we've gotten to rapport. He's feeling I'm on his side. I understand him. I understand where he's coming from. Then we talked about information. I pointed out there are a number of studies that show when the minimum wage goes up, many jobs are actually lost, whether to automation or to offshoring and to other causes. So there are serious problems when minimum wage is raised too high. And there are good debates to be had about what's too high,

but $18 in most cases right now, at least in our country, is going to be too high. And when I gave him some numbers on some studies about this, he saw where I'm coming from. He really hadn't thought about the job losses and how it's going to hurt poor people who are working on minimum wage to do that. And finally, once he realized that, okay, maybe $18 for all companies is going to be much. Maybe Amazon should be paying $18, but not some smaller businesses out there. And so he agreed that, yes, maybe a blanket $18 minimum wage is too much. And then I gave him positive reinforcement saying, it's tough to really change your mind because it doesn't feel good. It feels challenging for us to change your mind, but it's very admirable that you're able to do that.

And that will help make sure that he, in the future, will be more open to changing his mind. It's kind of a meta point, so that you're not only on the object level itself, on minimum wage, but on the meta point itself, on changing your mind. So that's a way of using this e-grip technique to get people to change their minds and persuade them. It's very interesting um one of the things i've noticed that that has caused me to sort of shift to persuasion that sounds like a great technique by the way and i was laughing to myself i was thinking um i wonder if your accent makes it easier for them you to persuade because you know what i mean you're not part you're you're necessarily not part of the american know what i mean you're you're not part you're you're necessarily not part of the american capitalist pig you're you're you're a you're a dispassionate european you can see things that we can't see it's so interesting to me these things that come

to bear that we may not be aware of because i have a feeling you know stupid american going at that guy would have gotten nowhere fast but who knows maybe it's it depends on how you i think it might be mistaken in that saying that kind of it's the stupid american i mean there's research showing that people foreign accents are trusted less than people of mainstream american accents so i don't think that the accent but i think that where where was that data from where did they collect that data was that just generally speaking or did they collect that data? Was that just generally speaking? Yeah, generally speaking. No, but because I've noticed, but listen, I've noticed that to be true on TV. I've not found it to be true one-on-one. You see what I'm saying?

It's different where people, I don't know why, but I've noticed this very vividly. Like British accents particularly just don't work on TV, but they're very much welcomed in a social setting and persuaded in individual settings. It's very weird. You're absolutely right. British accents are one of the few accents to which this doesn't apply. Mostly foreign accents are going to be less trusted in individual interactions or group interactions. Interesting.

So I don't think that the- Gleb, you're too close to a Russian accent. That's the problem. That's the hell. That's the problem. That's funny. I mean, I'm Ukrainian, so Ukrainian and Moldovan. I know, I know, I know. That shows you how stupid.

I said that with intention because I said that's how dumb this is when we have those biases to talk about your biases. That's how dumb our biases are. Right. All right. Let me finish this thought. Yeah, go ahead. What's it called? Say are. Right. All right. Let me finish this thought. Yeah, go ahead. What's it called?

Say it again. The Horn's effect. So the Horn's effect is one of these cognitive biases where, again, relating that tribalism. I mean, a lot of these cognitive biases are coming from that ancestral Savannah environment. So in that ancestral Savannah environment, when you had a sign that somebody is not from your tribe, it was important to not trust them. And, of course, having an accent is a good sign that somebody's not from your tribe it was important to not trust them and of course having an accent is a good sign that somebody's not from your tribe right right oh and i think you and i've gone over the robber's cave study and all that kind of there's all these famous social psychological studies out there that show how quickly humans get into these tribal positions but we also quickly get into cooperative positions too,

if we have a common goal and a common enemy. And we have to kind of really keep that in mind and find those things. The fact that we're further splintering rather than looking for those opportunities is sort of disturbing, disappointing to me. You're exactly right. And that's what I talk about in the second point of the e-group technique. Goals, shared common goals. And then the third point is rapport. Building up rapport. So showing that person you understand their emotion and you share their goals. That is really critical if you

want to connect with people and persuade them effectively. But I think one of the reasons I have been sort of preoccupied with persuasion is I'm encountering character pathology all over the place, character illness, particularly cluster B character. And it's very difficult to manage people with these kinds of character constructs. And you, cause you can't, you can't, I't i mean i let's well you might not talked about this uh so i feel like the johnny depp and and amber hurd did us all uh a service by by putting their conflicts publicly to show how messy relationships are i don't think either i don't think there's a right or a wrong.

I think they both had lots of pathology. And one of the things you saw on display was how people with borderline disorder distort. They distort, and then their memories are distorted, and severely they're inaccurate. But then, of course, Mr. Depp is using drugs and alcohol, and that also distorts memories and distorts perception. And so I guess what I'm getting at, are there ways, one of the more frustrating phenomenon I get into these days is the distortions around character pathology. because whatever's going on in the person's victim mentality is projected onto you,

or you get anger or manipulation, or you have to be, and I'm not talking about one particular style, I'm just saying these are the kinds of things you encounter, or you have to perfectly mirror that person, the narcissist. There's all these things that people now are almost requiring of other people in order to carry on a civil conversation does does understanding i my next question is gonna be can your technique work in those settings a and b do we have are there awarenesses of certain cognitive biases that can help us in those situations yes so for folks who don't understand character B characteristics of these personalities are

people who are really pretty dramatic and unpredictable. So that is the kind of folks we're talking about here. And of course, these techniques can work with them as they can with other people when you get on their emotional wavelength. You could really underestimate the role of emotions, and especially for people with those B personalities, having the emotions is going to be very important for them. So they're going to be more important than other people who have more of a logical and rational approach. You really want to be focusing, spending more time with them on their emotions and trying to understand and tune in to their emotions. If you want to persuade

them, right? If you care about that, if you care about building and cultivating a relationship with this person, if you care about that, then you really want to be focusing on their emotions, not the logic, not the rationality, not the reason, and not what you feel. So here it's going to be tricky. And this is one of the most tricky things in this technique and more broadly dealing with people is managing your own emotions. And that one of the most tricky things in this technique and more broadly dealing with people is managing your own emotions. And that's called emotional intelligence, right? So emotional intelligence is the skill area of being able to be aware of what you feel and then being able to manage what you feel. Conversely, social intelligence, eGrip is within the technique of

social intelligence, which is being aware of what other people feel and being able to influence, manage their feelings, emotions, relationships. So emotional intelligence is where it starts. You need to understand how you feel, what you feel before you really engage with other people. Knowing yourself, of course, is one of the big battles in this world. Well, I want to drill in a little more on that because you're getting right into the territory that I'm worried about, which is it's hard enough just to know who you are and what you're feeling. But when you get in and around cluster B, you get sucked into their frame. You know, they have not great boundaries. Like I'm thinking about a narcissist for instance one of the the key ways dealing with a narcissist is to keep in mind what you're feeling and keep your priorities your

thoughts your feelings in mind while you're dealing with that person but you may have to perfectly mirror what that person wants and provide them exactly what their needs and desires are or else you'll be completely rejected so it depends what your goals are with that person, I guess, right? You're absolutely right, Dr. Ju. It's about understanding that person and separating that person from your emotions. We're talking about emotions, understanding emotions. It's hard. It's hard. The crucial thing to do. It is very hard. It is hard. And that's why I said at the beginning, you want to separate sympathy from empathy. Empathy means understanding that person sympathy means caring about them and so you might not care about what they feel you don't need to you don't need to

experience the emotions that they do what many people do and they make the mistake of and they don't realize that they don't need to do this is they try to mirror the other person's emotions in a way that they experience that person's emotions that's not great that's contagion you don't want to contain no that's that's contagion right exactly that's emotional contagion and you don't want that yeah you want to separate your emotion the way what i tell people is imagine you're trying to take care of a baby or a child and the child has some intense emotion and you have contagion and you're overcome by that emotion do you think that helps that kid do you think that child is now better because they've can you've caught the emotion that's making the child upset no now you both escalate

into nobody regulates both escalate which again back to the cluster b if you're in with a histrionic or a borderline you're going to the moon that way yeah so a good way of addressing a child's temper tantrum is saying that wow that's a great temper tantrum come on let it all out so rather than engaging and kind of you know escalating the temper tantrum and that's the same way you want to engage with someone with cluster b or some personality kind of if they're angry say yeah you have a right to be angry without getting angry yourself. Let them get the anger out. Let them get whatever drama they have out without becoming angry yourself. That's a nice thing. You can reinforce the other person's emotions without

mirroring them exactly. You can say that you have the right and the validity to have those emotions, but they'll hear that and they'll be, oh, support my emotions you don't need to feel those emotions you need to express that you are concerned and support their emotions i have found a way to set a boundary that's rather convenient and nice is to reflect with the small muscles in your face both your appreciation like reflect what the feeling is they're having and your concern for it. You can do all that with your face. And that's a boundary. That's a boundary. It's you're not saying I've caught your feeling.

It's signaling and appreciation. And those signals get into our brain on a deep level. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's part of social intelligence, understanding how to influence, understanding what other people are feeling and influencing them. You can use social intelligence techniques with your tone of voice, with your body language, including face language,

and with the content of what you say. And so all of those reinforce the message that you're trying to send to the other person to persuade them, to influence them. Now, one of the things that you want to be thinking about, so one of the cognitive biases that's really important here is called the empathy gap. So the empathy gap, where we tend to greatly underestimate the importance of emotions in motivating other people and motivating ourselves so that's the empathy gap underestimating other people's emotions and our own emotions so it's pretty notorious that there was there are really interesting studies done including on ourselves so when think, and that's called the hot-cold empathy gap between us in a cold state and us in a hot state. So, for example, when people are asked about various kinky sexual things that they're willing to do,

when they're in a cold state, they're much less willing to do some kinky sexual activities than when they're in a hot aroused state. And that applies to all sorts of dangerous, risky, dramatic, escalating activities that people are much more willing to do in a hot state than they would predict that they're willing to do when they are in a cold, calm state. So that's something to really recognize that our future selves can't be trusted. If we are aroused, we need to put up barriers to prevent our future self. If we put ourselves in a aroused state from acting in ways that we'll later regret. That is really interesting. It also makes me think about why people escalate into strange behaviors in a a heated crowd the crowd kind of brings on the hot state very interesting it does and that's kind of social proof so one of

these dynamics is social proof if other people around us are acting in a certain way that demonstrates to us from a tribal herd mentality, right? That's one of the cognitive biases is the bandwagon effect where we jump on the bandwagon of what other people around us are doing. And if they're acting in a way that we might find weird if we weren't part of the crowd, when we're in the crowd and when we feel ourselves to be part of that tribe,

we will tend to act in that way unless we deliberately pull out. And that's pretty hard to do. Interesting. So what I want to do is I want to spend the next five minutes going through a little more of the cognitive biases. Then we have a little break and then I want to talk about the workplace and then we'll take calls. So let's just kind of go through some of the more common cognitive biases. And one you and I talked about last time I talked to you was just the positive-negative bias, which I think is having massive effect these days. We both agree we're sort of positively biased. Your wife is negatively biased.

Dr. Fauci is negatively biased. Yeah, there's all these sort of negative – the people that are still wearing masks and still freaking out have negative bias uh how do we how do we is there a bridge to be had between the positive negative bias and then tell us a couple of more common other common biases of course so the optimistic pessimistic bias right so people who are more positively inclined toward the world who think the grass is green on the other side of the hill. That's people like you and I who have more of a view of the world full of opportunities. My wife and other people like that see the world and see the grass as yellow on the other side of the hill, and the world is full of threats. We need to empathize with people like that, and they need to empathize with us. But the thing is, honestly, optimism is a better

life strategy. It's not something that's just what the research shows. So people with an optimism bias tend to be healthier. They tend to be mentally and physically healthier. They tend to be more creative. They tend to be more entrepreneurial. People with a pessimism bias, unfortunately, tend to have more depression. They tend to be less physically healthy. They tend to be more in control functions. So Dr. Fauci is definitely in a control function. So you'll find many more lawyers and accountants who have pessimism bias. So the optimism bias is people do tend to thrive more with the optimism bias. So we need to understand that. And we can certainly build bridges to people who have a pessimism bias by understanding their emotions. So coming from optimistic perspective, you need to understand that people with a pessimism bias view the world

through a prism of anxiety. And anxiety, why do they do that? They see the world as full of threat that causes anxiety. And if there's too much threat, too much problems, it causes depression. So we need to understand that they're coming from a place of anxiety. So what we want to do is take steps to relieve their anxiety. That means, first of all, acknowledging them, acknowledging, telling them that, hey, I totally understand that you feel that this is dangerous, this is worrisome, tell me about your anxiety. Tell me about what you're worried about. And that's very rare for people with a pessimism bias who know that they're dealing with an optimist. That is incredibly rare for them to hear. And that's very relieving. When I talk to my wife or other people with a pessimism bias, I tell them, tell me what you're worried

about. Tell me what makes you feel anxious about the situation then they feel much less threatened because what they're worried about is people like us kind of shooting from the hip and just going out and saying everything is hopefully hunky-dory oh i never i never realized that it was the i i i didn't realize it was the optimist causing the pessimistic anxiety that's just that information is interesting because I don't want to do that to people. Oh, that's interesting. They are. Oh, that explains a lot. Yeah.

They feel that we are crazy and that we shoot from the hip and that we are completely oblivious to threats. It's like, oh, it's completely over. We don't have an average of 100,000 cases or whatever it is, 97, last I checked this morning, cases per week. I mean, it's still there, right? Obviously.

And it's nasty. Yeah, it's nasty, but I want to get on with my life. Yeah, you had COVID yourself, and that caused you some serious problems. I remember that. Twice. Twice, exactly. So that's a problem, right? Yeah. So we need to

realize that they have fears about what we will do. And if we listen to them, if we talk to them and say, what are your fears? What causes your anxiety? That will help them really understand and appreciate that, hey, we are more on their side. So sort of a little bit borrowing some of the e-grip techniques and talking about, okay, how can we relieve your anxieties? Sometimes we optimists don't realize what makes pessimists anxious. And if we realize that, hey, these are the things that make pessimists anxious, then maybe we can take steps to address these.

If it's the optimist, I had no idea. So that's already a major insight for me. Right. So then we can figure out, okay, these are the kind of worries, you know, these pessimists think that, okay, these are the kinds of worries they have about what we'll do. So maybe we can tell them, okay, I will make sure to not do these things. And then we can come to a win-win compromise in a situation where pessimists would be otherwise just completely shutting the situation down and saying, no, don't have these parties. Don't get on with your life. You can compromise.

You can figure out what makes them anxious. So that's kind of one of the big dynamics that you want to be thinking about. And else you'll find many people in your life. If you are an optimist, you'll find that a number of reasons for your conflicts with people is that many of them are pessimists. If you're a pessimist, you'll find that some of your conflicts, a bunch of them, come from optimists that you feel are shooting from the hip, and there's common misunderstandings. So those are definitely important. Another, probably the most famous cognitive bias folks have heard of is the confirmation bias, where we tend to look for information that confirms our beliefs and ignore information that doesn't.

So that's a common one. One of the ones that I think people might have heard about less is called the fundamental attribution error. Fundamental attribution error. That's what I was going to bring up. I was going to bring up that next. I've noticed it's sort of, I feel like it's morphed a little bit. I remember, I know what you're going to tell us about the fundamental attribution error, and I would like you to do so. But I feel like it's just changed to an attribution error.

People just assume what's going on in the contents of people's minds all the time. You know what I mean? Once it's on social media and everywhere else, that's an evil person, that's a Nazi, that's a communist, that's whatever. These attributions are being way more bantered about than I've ever seen in my lifetime. Right, because it's easy to make attributions on social media, right? So the fundamental attribution error, that's technically a scientific name, if you look that up for individuals, where we know the contents of our mind. And so when we do something that might be controversial, we know that we're doing it for a good reason. You know, we're the good guys, right?

We have a good story about ourselves, about why we're doing it. When we see somebody else doing something like cutting off stuff in the car or making a controversial statement on social media or doing something in the workplace that we think is dumb then we attribute hostile intentions to them because we think that well how can they do that you know they they must be crazy that what's going on in their internal world we attribute their actions due to their internal personality and something that's wrong with them as individuals, because why would they be acting like this otherwise? We don't have a glimpse into their world. Now, we have extensive research showing that if you sit people down with one another, people across the political aisle,

across various ideologies, religion, whatever, and when you have them talk to each other, and they talk, share about their life experiences and why they came to develop the values that they do, then you can bridge a lot of the divides. So that bridges a lot of divides when people come to understand each other's experiences and each other's thought processes, where they came from. And that brings down hostilities immensely. But in social media, media of course that's not what happens you know before social media we used to know the people we interacted with much more personally you know you go to a dinner party you have some background with the people of course

your neighbors your friends and so on on social media you have much less insight into the background of those of other people with whom you interact. So we tend to attribute more hostile intentions and actions and thought processes to these people. So this fundamental attribution error, that's for individuals. Ultimate attribution error is when we attribute these characteristics to larger groups. So groups, you know, everyone who identifies as a communist, or anyone who identifies as someone on the alt-right or whatever it is, we would tend to attribute negative characteristics to that whole group, even though they might not be. attribution error but as you were talking i was thinking to myself yeah i'm i'm almost hearing these days attribution attribution errors in other words what it's not just that they're

attributing they're going oh another one of these and you're just another one and it's like it's like now you're now it's it's second order attribution error not only are you attributing us to you know content to that person's mind you're also you're also saying something about the world and the group to which they belong to it's another one it's and it's like no no no and and and that kind of thinking gets very close to delusion i'm sorry to tell you it becomes a paranoid delusional do what do one one more step and you're delusional everybody's a fascist everybody's a communist now now you're there you know our moms you know mom's plotting

against me okay now we're now we're into delusion there we go that's weird it's weird that we've that's been a weird thing these days all right well listen let me let me take a break and when we get back we're going to talk about about workplace and your hybrid workplace recommendations, how to manage it, and then we'll take calls. All right? All right. Be right back after this. I think we have found the holy grail of skin care.

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please let us know what you think of it. Contact at drdrew.com. And if you have any trouble reaching them, again, contact. We just, we feel very, very happy to be able to support their products. They're excellent. Caleb, you still using everything

and your wife using everything to satisfaction? Oh yes, absolutely. I just used it before the show today. In fact, let's see, where am I? You can probably see that my skin is looking pretty amazing. I mean, yeah, look at Caleb. Well, I'm moving and it's yeah, this is the red out stuff that podcast late at night. Oh, yeah, it's doing great. No, I did. So part of the reason I wanted to come on screen is because he had made a really interesting point earlier about the people, optimists and how optimists and pessimists see each other. I just disconnected myself from my ears. Sorry about that. I kicked

up the wire and the whole thing fell apart. Dr. Siburski, he had made a very interesting point whenever you had realized that how optimists and pessimists see each other. And it made me realize that my wife is a huge optimist. And I try to be an optimist, but that's just not my natural state. And the truth is, I often actually feel like that the only way that optimists like my wife survive

are because they're a pessimist like me, who are constantly watching out for all of these dangerous and constant threats. Well, so hold on. So stop, Caleb. It's funny you would say that. When Dr. Zaborski first described this bias to me, he said, well, he goes, the optimist had to go out of the cave and go kill the mammoth. We had to get the meat and you had to be kind of optimistic for that guy to go out there and go hunting. But somebody needed to stay back with the kids and survive and keep the fire going. So there you go. And if you think about, Caleb, if you think about your role, you are in the controlling role. You are in the producer.

You are making sure that there are no screw-ups, right? So the control roles are perfect for people who are more pessimistic. Like I said, accountants, controllers, quality personnel, that's a perfect role for you. That's great. That's where you're needed. So thank you for doing what you do. Well, thank you very much.

Thank you for your diligence. For my service. Oh, my goodness. All right. So speaking of workplace workplace let's talk about hybrid workplace elon musk has uh made some headlines lately for firing people that criticized him and telling everybody to get back to work and go to a pretend company where you can continue to pretend to work i think is what he said which is pretty funny but uh what do you say about this uh new hybrid environment yeah so what elon musk said is that remote workers are only pretending to work and pretty funny. But what do you say about this new hybrid environment?

Yeah, so what Elon Musk said is that remote workers are only pretending to work and phoning it in. And therefore, everyone has to come to work because it's important for everyone to be there and to be visible. So he's basically claiming that remote workers are not productive. When you look at the research on productivity, it's very clear that remote workers are more productive than in-person workers, of course, for those who can do their work remotely. It's hard to imagine. No, it's not actually hard to imagine. Think about it. What happens with remote work? You don't have to do the commute. So you save yourself over an hour per day. And especially if you are, let's say, in New York City, you save yourself over two hours per day and more, perhaps more. So that is something that remote workers...

What is a commute? It's unpaid labor. You'll have to do it to come to work. It's unpaid labor. So remote workers are working about half of the time of that commute. They are working. They of the time of that commute. They are working. They spend that time working. So they don't start, they don't work from 9 to 5. They work from 8.30 to 5.30. That's what typically happens with remote workers.

They work longer days. We saw on average with the transition in March 2020 that remote workers worked about 20 hours more per month. That's one. Second, they are more focused when they work. They have more unbroken stretches of time when they can focus on their tasks. And therefore, they're not interrupted by co-workers. And so they are more productive because they're more focused. So overall, there was extensive research showing this from Harvard Business School, Society for Human Resources Services, Stanford University, showing that remote workers are more productive.

Specifically, there was some recent research coming out from Stanford that showed that compared to May 2020, the remote workers in May 2020 were about 5% more productive than comparable in-office workers. By May 2022, they were about 5% more productive than comparable in-office workers. By May 2022, they were about 9% more productive. So almost twice as much higher productivity. Why is that? Well, because people learned how to work remotely better. And using some of the techniques in my book, I'll talk about that later, about some of the techniques that they use, but people know how

to work together better remotely. So Elon Musk is flatly, simply wrong. And I'm highly confident that Tesla engineers, software programmers, the people who he's claiming don't work, pretending to work, are more productive at home just because everyone is, on average, more productive at home. And of course, some people with kids and so on, distractions, are less productive at home. But on average, people are quite a bit more productive at home. Now, that's one. Second, what is he saying? He's saying that you need to come to work because I don't trust you. I don't trust you to work. You're only pretending to work. You're phoning it in. Now, what kind of a message is that? When you don't trust people, you're telling people,

I don't trust you. I want to micromanage you. You need to be visible and I need to be looking over your shoulder every minute. That is not a way to run a company. When you look at what makes people productive, people who are not the workers on the shop floor, of course, who need to be there, but people who are knowledge workers, the people who can work remotely, the software programmers at Tesla, the research and development people at Tesla, they are made effective and productive and innovative due to a combination of autonomy

and flexibility. So autonomy and flexibility are strongly correlated with both innovation and productivity. People like to have autonomy over their work when they're working with their mind, when they're knowledge workers. They want to be autonomous, meaning where, how, and when they work. When you give them those things, they produce more ideas and they produce more output, more effort. So that is a big, big problem. Lack of trust, showing lack of trust is poison for a good culture. Now, not giving people autonomy is poison for a good culture. Now, not giving people autonomy is poison

for innovation and creativity. So what will happen? The people who are more innovative and more creative can easily find jobs elsewhere. And we know that Amazon and other companies that are offering much more flexibility are actually specifically recruiting Tesla workers right now using what Elon Musk is saying. And they will leave. And who will come to work? The people who are more conformist, let's just be honest about that, who are more conformist and who are less able to find a job elsewhere. So these are the people who will be remaining at Tesla. The people who are least able to find a job elsewhere, the people who are most conformist.

Now, is that really aligned with Tesla's spirit? I mean, Tesla is making its money because it's innovative. It's innovation. The innovation is at the center of Tesla. But you'll have many less innovative people working at Tesla because they will be gone. And that's a phenomenon called evaporative cooling, where a certain type of people are leaving a place, they're evaporating from a place,

and you have more of a concentration, like something becoming more salty because water is evaporating. You have more of a concentration of more conformist people who are working at Tesla. And that's not great for Tesla. And I know that there are a number of more conformist people who are working at Tesla. And that's not great for Tesla. And I know that there are a number of other companies, including high-tech manufacturers like Tesla, who are working for flexibility. So one of my clients is a high-tech manufacturing company called Applied Materials. And they gave me a testimonial, so I'm happy to talk about it. So Applied Materials is a fortune 200 company that works in the semiconductor manufacturing industry and so again high-tech manufacturing

people from tesla can easily go and find a work there again high-tech manufacturing similar environment and that company provides them with a lot more flexibility it provides including fully remote work for people who can work fully remotely or various flexible hybrid options from one day a week to a couple of days a week, whatever, depending on your team, depending on the kind of role that you are. So applied materials is one example. Another example is Friam, which is obviously folks know hopefully what Friam is. Huge. I think it's a Fortune 50 company. It's a huge company.

It has a trust-based culture. So trust-based culture, meaning they trust you to work from wherever you are, however you are, as long as you accomplish your work. These are two high-tech manufacturing companies where people from Tesla can easily go to work. We're not only talking about tech companies like Amazon. There are a number of high-tech manufacturing companies that offer a flexible trust-based culture. Now, why is Elon Musk pursuing this? He's falling into a cognitive bias called the illusion of control. So the illusion of control, that's a cognitive bias that often characterizes people who are more authoritarian, more authoritarian leaders, who want to have control over their environment. He directly says this in his email to employees

saying, you must be visible, I must be able to see you. Control, he wants control, he wants that power. And that illusion of control speaks to the fact that we don't really have nearly as much control over our world, over our teams, as we feel we do. In fact, extensive research shows that office workers, on average, work only about 36 to 39% of the time. 36 to 39% of the time is how much people work. When they're in the office, that is not great. So for people who want the illusion of control, like Musk, who found that illusion of control like musk who found that illusion of control the rest of the time people spend do things like chit chatting with worker

fellow workers about non-work topics checking social media shopping on amazon and even looking for other jobs which i can guarantee to you a number of tesla workers who are coming in right now are doing at this very moment well but but i i don't disagree with anything you've said you can't disagree with it it's just that those are the facts but i worry that two things get lost in in the hybrid situation and it's almost like i feel like we need to define the kinds of jobs that are done best or better at at least, in these different models. In other words, you are not practicing medicine alone. You're going in, period.

End of story. You can't be a healthcare provider and not go in. It just doesn't make sense. And the more sort of collaborative and interactive you are with your peers, the better the care, the more your knowledge base is enhanced. And I'm guessing there are other scientific endeavors in particular, say, in a collective laboratory of biotech environment or maybe in certain engineering environments where it's really important to be constantly interacting with your peers. And there may be ways to do it with some of those professions where you're primarily looking at a screen, like engineering or something, but not in a biotech. When you're in a lab yelling across the bench to each other,

that has to be in the bench, inside. Now, maybe you can go home and crunch the numbers, but you're probably doing that anyway already. So I kind of, and I worry that you're going to lose the community social cohesion of a workplace. You're not going to feel a part of something. So what about those two issues, type of job and social community cohesion? Yeah. Let's talk about the exact job you talked about. And one of my clients is called the J-HEP Center for Health Research. You can look it up. It's a center for health research, it's a biotech center, and it moved to a home-centric model,

meaning it's not even a hybrid model. People overwhelmingly work at home, they only come in for meetings and for some research that they can't do at home. But a lot of the current bio research can be done from home because it's using data science, using models. So the large majority of it actually can be done from home. And when you think about people in biotech, they tend to be more introverted. They tend to be more number crunchers and they really like working from home. They're very comfortable and they are very successful. So they moved the J-HUB Center Center for Health Research moved to a home-centric model and

they're finding that they have a lot more productivity, a lot more innovative ideas, and they're getting more funding, they're getting more research done. They're overall way better off with a home-centric model. So we're not even talking about a hybrid model. And that just works well for them. When they did an internal survey on what employees wanted, we did an internal survey, all 84% wanted fully remote work. So this is what employees wanted. And this is what drives retention.

Now, another one of my clients is called the Information Sciences Institute at the University of Southern California. Again, all of these gave me testimonials, which is why I'm talking about them. That's a 400-staff research institute where there's a focus on data. So it's engineering, data science of various forms,

engineering of various forms, IT science, all of this sort of stuff. And a lot of them work fully remotely. They're very comfortable working fully remotely. And a bunch of them work fully remotely they are very comfortable working fully remotely and a bunch of them come in but your hybrid schedule i i i get it but i feel like you're defining a particular job which is it and data which doesn't surprise me better from home so there's there's what i'm talking about yeah so i'm talking about there must be i'm sure there there must be yeah there must be other jobs, there must be other jobs I pointed being

other jobs that are not suitable for that are not as good for it. Are we going to sort of be more more specific to the job? Okay, that's all I'm saying. Yeah. About 50% of all jobs in the United States are able to be done fully remotely from home. And that's the job that we're talking about talking about the job where you have to come in. Now, for the other part of your question about community, it's very important to do that. And there are effective techniques to build that.

So there is a reason that there's 9% higher productivity now rather than 5%. And one of the techniques that I talk about a lot is called virtual co-working. What that means, it replaces the in-person co-working you do. What that means is that everyone gets together on a video conference call for an hour or two per day, and you work on your individual tasks. So you don't work together with other people. It's not about collaboration. You work on your individual tasks. But when you have a question, you ask that. So you get on a video conference call, you turn off your microphone, you leave on your speakers and video optional.

If you have a question, you ask that question. Somebody turns on their microphone, they answer a question. There might be some team problem solving, some screen sharing that goes on, and then you end the meeting. That's a great technique for on-the-job training of junior people. That's been one of the problems for people during the pandemic, and they don't know how to do that. That's a great technique, on-the-job training,

because on-the-job training is essentially just quickly answering people's questions in the moment. Then it's a great technique for team bonding. You all work together, you problem-solve together, you build that community, you feel that sense of togetherness, and that's great. And it's great and it's great for junior staff getting mentoring from more senior staff that's a great environment for them

to do that so that solves a lot of problems around that sense of community around on the job training around getting mentoring and that sort of support i have a question all right let's uh switch to yeah kayla but i would just before you're asking a question. be streaming out on YouTube, Twitter, Twitch, Rumble, Facebook, everywhere. We can push it, we push it. So just request it. And also remember, when I do pull you up to the podium, to unmute your microphone, which is in the lower left-hand corner of your tweet spaces screen. Caleb, go ahead. Do you think that workers should be paid more if they're working from home because the company isn't having to pay for office space and all the materials and equipment and upkeep, like it's reducing the company's costs. Should the employees be paid more or should they be paid the same or less because they're getting more freedom?

Or how does that balance out? What I have my clients do is pay for their home office. So their home office use. So if they need to get laptops, microphones laptops microphones cameras if they need to get some privacy screens all of that that is what they do because they're not paying for that same space that they would in the office and all of the equipment that they do so yes paying for their home office is very appropriate and it's very smart for companies because obviously when you pay for the home office of your employees that increases their productivity and their comfort

and their innovation their work-life balance their physical and mental health you know ergonomic chairs all of that sort of stuff standing desks yep so that's a great question caleb and that's what you should do so he wants us to sorry i didn't buy your equipment for you caleb is that we're going no you did actually you did oh did i did I? Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. All right, excellent. And it worked? You and Susan worked on this all out. The streaming PC, the mixer, everything. Oh, yeah. Okay, good. That's all Susan, so thank her.

Thanks, Susan. You guys, just so we're all clear, it's been Caleb and Susan, the brains behind this whole thing. I was just sitting at home being frustrated, and they thought they both – well, first Caleb suggested it, and then Susan went along, and then uh and then i went along and so thus we've continued doing this to this day all right let's bring up some people to the front here to speak josh go ahead oh hey dr jim hey sorry you know uh on the twitter spaces versus the clubhouse there's a pretty bad delay but um that's the only that's the only notice that's the only difference i noticed between the two setups um i didn't hear you call on me i just all of a sudden looked down and said your mic is muted which meant i was on the stage so interesting interesting but um yeah so there's a little delay on on twitter spaces versus clubhouse okay um so my question is on projection and um i wanted to

know how we know when we're projecting because because if we can catch ourselves doing it, it seems to present a lot of knowledge of the self, of our own selves. That's a great question. In relationship to another person, where we would have no knowledge otherwise. It's kind of like a cognitive distortion. It's kind of like a cognitive, it's definitely cognitive, but it's also psychological, like you were talking about Cluster B. It's also part of these cluster B personality disorders. And I also wanted to say, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but in racism and sexism, it looks like we might be projecting onto the out group, and we may not know that we're doing it at all. And I just wanted to

know if you guys had any comment on that. Okay,osh i'll put you on hold here um i i would even say i feel very strongly about what josh brought up here um in that it's there's layers to it and not only is it exactly what he's talking about this projection it has psychological basis and you have to bring it into consciousness but there's also i don't know if this bias has a name but this is the one i've been personally working on very hard and and i'm just stunned at all the layers to it which is just sort of uh ignorance there's things that were that other people know vividly about their experience as americans that i as a privileged white person just wasn't aware of and that's the that's the biggest complaint i'm hearing from people. And so that's why I made it a very serious effort. And just the scales fall from my eyes on a

regular basis. Things even, a very dear patient of mine sent me a book about a Jim Crow in Southern California. And she's a dear friend, known her literally since I was in high school and taking care of her. She's a much older woman now and i said jim crow in southern california what are you talking about she goes here's the book read it and again poofs multiple scales fall from my eyes like i had no idea i feel so ignorant i feel so dumb but uh i'm used to it now it happens all the time so there's projection and then there's ignorance is is are those cognitive distortions are there strategies for dealing with both? So one of them, there's a really important cognitive bias called the false consensus effect, where what we believe to be true, we also believe that other people who are like us,

in some ways, believe to be true, who are close to us. So for example, your patient, it's intuitive for you to believe that you have the same beliefs, values, perceptions that people you like, like your patient, that you have the same perspectives and that you have the same life experiences. And we don't stop and think that other people might have different life experiences. So we have this false consensus effect, the idea that other people share our worldview, values, perspectives. So that's something to really watch out for. And the way to watch out for that is to really try to think about where that person is coming from with their life experience and what might have caused them to not share our life experience. It's essentially the old thing that your mom might have told you about putting yourself in another person's shoes while remembering that in their shoes you would have very different

values. If you were brought up like they did, if you grew up in the south under Jim Crow, which a number of people who are black have grown up, or of course of the older generation, have grown up in that sort of environment, then the kind of concerns and perspectives you would have are very different. And it's important to respect that and see that the life experience of other people shapes their perspectives and their beliefs. And that's very valuable to work on. And that helps address that projection, knowing that all of us fall into that false consensus effect constantly. It's just who we are. It's an inherent part of what we do. Then you will have much more reason to ask other people about their experiences,

about asking them, how do you feel about this topic? So again, circling back to that e-grip from the beginning, emotions, goals, rapport, information, positive reinforcement. You will focus on their emotions. You will try to understand how they feel about a topic. And that will help you get out of that false consensus effect because like, oh, you feel differently about this topic than I do. Let me try to understand how you feel. Oh, you have different goals about this about this well let me see what goals we share and what goals we don't so when you understand those things their emotions and their goals then you will have a much deeper appreciation of where they're coming from and that will help you address that false consensus and that though but but you also but but but josh also asked a

very provocative question which is how do you know when you're projecting how do you raise your awareness of that i don't know that anyone on their own can do it you have to have somebody else reflect back to you and you have to be willing to listen to that reflection don't you yeah well that's what i'm saying so you want to ask somebody about what they feel and what their goals are got it got it right that's that's that's the key i'm sorry i missed let me be explicit you you it's dumb people like me miss the step you put in there it's like you you have to be willing to address your your uh projections be open to the possibility that you're projecting and test reality by asking people what they're actually

you have to assume that you're projecting because that're right. You have to assume that you're projecting. Got it. Because that's just how we are as human beings. So again, you have to assume that you're projecting, and then you ask other people about how they feel and what their goals are, what they want to achieve. And then you disabuse of yourself of your projections and that false conception.

Hopefully. Or at least reduce the amount of projection evan ivan what's going on okay um just thought i mean and i'm not here to disrespect but a few seconds ago you kind of referred to yourself as a privileged white man and i know it's based on history but i think just that statement alone already puts you and other white people above others and i just think it's about changing the narrative to be more inclusive of of all cultures or all generations and and walks of life so i don't know if that lands but it's just something that sort of came to me he's a

bit jarring well so so so you're in australia i am mate yep okay so that is i i'm happy to adjust I am, yeah. I have had a life experience that just made me not as aware of things that I should have been aware of, that's all, which is privilege, right? Well, yeah. I mean, the fact that you are a leader in your field is a privilege because you've worked towards that. But that's better. I'm just referring to equality and how we've moved things along. And just look, it's just a brain fart idea, a thought that I wanted to bring up. I'm all for thoughts. Don't get me wrong.

I dig it. What do you think? What should I say? Look, out of context, it's hard to answer that question, but I think we just need to refer to situations in a way that is more inclusive. That's all. But back to what you guys were talking about earlier about workplace, and I've only just jumped on, so I might be sort of tripping over myself a little bit. But I run a number of companies here in Australia and in different industries. And I think the most important thing is culture and how we value people. Giving someone a pay rise and making them feel stupid or undermining them through our actions is counterproductive. I find that if we can have our teams, whether they're working remotely or in the office, it's about how they feel valued and through our actions

as leaders or owners of a business. I've had a few people that have worked remotely for me. We joke about we were practicing for COVID before COVID was a thing, meaning that I had a number of people work remotely or overseas and they work beautifully. And it's just when you hit stride, there's a smile on the phone or in person. And I think that to me is the new norm. And it's something that I think is really important to build a really good company culture. I talked to another consultant today who is fearful that or concerned, I'm a fearful too strong a word, a concern that people want to experience their whole being in the workplace

rather than their work being in the workplace. You know what I mean? I don't know if you have any opinion about that, Ivan, but it's, you know, it's one thing to support people and their, their work and who they are and what they do and show them value and peace of the culture and of the culture and collaborate with them. But is it important to have your total self-experience in the workplace? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think personally it's about understanding the human, the individual. Sometimes people want

all in in the office or home. I've had both and the bulk of our workforce is a hybrid. And a lot of bigger organizations have to have structure, and you've got departments that cancel each other out, or governance that is really toxic, and there's HR that complicates fucking everything. If we simplify things into modules and see what works for the individual best, if they're delivering in spades, then fucking game on.

I see you're here. That's a very important insight. That's a very important insight. You want to customize to the person. You want to respect the person. And here, this goes directly against what Elon Musk is saying, which is not trusting people, which is saying they pretend to work and that they're phoning it in. That is the very opposite of what

Ivan is saying, and I think that's very important. Ivan is saying is... Thank you, Ivan. Appreciate you being here today. Appreciate it. Thank you, man. Cheers, man. Cheers. All right. I think that about... I'm looking at what people are up to here. If anybody else is interested in walking up to the podium, we are about the end of the program here. Go ahead. Yes, sir.

How do you, so one of the reasons why I feel like this, my remote work situation, I'm in Alabama, Drew and Susan, they're over in California and I'm producing everything remotely. And one of the reasons why I feel like that works so well is because they've built in ways to incentivize me so that the more that I work, then I have opportunities to actually get boosters and commissions and things for working with sponsors and all of that. So how can other companies

build that in so that it's like, I'm motivated to, I can spend time, I can take, you know, half a day off, spend time with my baby and my wife and all that. And then come back and get the work done. It's a, it's a, it it's a it's I like that you're bringing this up because I feel like this is sort of one of the new it's really it's bringing you as an entrepreneur on board by giving you skin in the game. And so talk about that club skin in the game, I think, is a very important part of collaborating and building a work environment. So one of the things that I do for my clients is

make sure there's an effective performance evaluation system for people who can work remotely. And that if they are not performing remotely, then they're asked to come to the office. And so the reward itself is the ability to work remotely. Because people generally want to have more flexibility, more autonomy. Now, if for some reason they're not performing effectively remotely, and then that may be a good time for them to come into the office, maybe they're too distracted, scatterbrained to work effectively remotely. And so that in itself is a very good reward system,

I find. And it causes people to be motivated to work as effectively remotely as they can because they want to keep that privilege. In fact, if you look at surveys, working remotely is the number one privilege that people want right now. It's more important than things like healthcare. Oh, that's interesting.

I had no idea. I had no idea. People prefer remote work over the healthcare as a more important privilege. And they will choose a company that offers more flexibility than more healthcare. Wow. And is this all chronicled in the book? Yes. Yep. Leading hybrid and remote teams talks about all of that. Go ahead and flash it up there again, Caleb, while I bring in one more

speaker here. It's PK. Where is his book? You can find it on Amazon, elsewhere. Leading hybrid and remote teams, physical and digital. Okay. And PK, you have to unmute your mic in the lower left-hand corner of your tweet space's screen.

And then you can talk to us. There you are. Hello, everyone. tweet spaces screen and then you can talk to us yeah I just joined the space early to your I already want enough I want to quickly ask this question if one wants to secure any remote job what are these steps I know where I want such for those remote jobs thank you okay I'm not sure I caught the question that you were saying. Thank you. Are there strategies for you? You asked about strategies for securing remote jobs. So what you want to do is making sure that you can demonstrate that you can work well remotely.

And that means showing that you have initiative and showing that you have productivity. And so that one of the things that we find about people, so with my clients, when we evaluate who works well remotely, it's people who take initiative, not people who are just passive and just do what their boss tells them. Those are the people who come to work at Tesla, the more conformist people. You want to show that you take initiative, that you are creative, and that you can be responsible for working well remotely. And those are the things that you want to demonstrate. And there are a number of ways of demonstrating these things.

But that's the crucial thing, that you're a problem solver, you take initiative. When you notice problems, you go ahead and solve them. But you are willing to work harder than you would in the office for the privilege of working remotely. And so treating that like a privilege and being a self-motivated self-starter who takes initiative and shows creativity and entrepreneurialism, those are the things that will get companies to hire you as a remote worker. Gleb, as always, it's a privilege to speak with you. I just, every time I learn something, and it helps refine my understanding

of the human experience, I'm happy to share my positive bias with you, and I'm glad we're both of that, so we don't have to do any bridging of that particular bias. I think as it turns to my bias in the workplace you know again you know your own experience might uh color how you feel about working from home i feel like workplace environments are very um um activating and inspiring and i personally i would want a lot

you know i'd want to be in the workplace and i would feel bad about people that weren't there that you know that wanted to stay at home that I wish were part of the collaboration in real time in person, in flesh environment. But again, we all have these biases and we all have these preferences and that's what makes a ballgame, right?

We figure we find places we want to work that suit our biases and our preferences. And the fact that i i think the really important thing that people should take if they have strong feelings about this one way or another the one thing they should take away is there's not there's not a good way and a bad way to solve this problem there are there are good ways to do both uh and that people clearly want both and i had no idea how what a priority it was for people, which to me is, again, another eye-opening thing, which is that if that's more

important than healthcare, we need to provide that for people if that's really that important to them. And it'll be interesting to see how it works out. And it will change how we build. Yeah, go ahead. I want to disagree with you there are bad ways of solving it and elon musk is solving it in a bad way not trusting people maybe but again but even but think about it if we if we empathize with him he has sort of as burgers and he that's the kind of that is his style and he's been very successful with that style and um i i personally would probably respond

to that kind of a leadership. I would dig in and that's just me, right? And a lot of people would bristle against it and hate it and they shouldn't be there. And so he is, what do you call it? He's saltificing, he's evaporating. He's creating too much salt. He's evaporative cooling.

He's evaporative cooling yeah right people who'll be left at uh tesla will be more conformist and less innovative and creative and so that will maybe that's what he wants maybe or maybe yeah exactly or maybe he'll have a separate workforce for the creative side at home i i don't know. That's up to him. But I always worry about thinking about these things in terms of good and bad. There may be better and best. There may be better ways to do it. I get that.

But people, we're all so very, I don't want to say different because we're all kind of the same too, but it's, it's, um, to, to think about each of our, our experiences and good or bad, I think it just sort of limits the human experience a little bit. It's just, we're, we're just sort of different and there may be better ways to do it. You may want to rethink what you're doing, but, um, maybe you can adjust course along the way. You'll learn something and you'll do something much, much better. Who knows? I don't know. I think that's right.

You'll adjust course. I mean, I think generally telling people that you don't trust them is not going to work for the vast majority of people. So, you know, I think we can agree on that. Fair enough. Well, Gleb Zaborski, again, thank you as always for joining me and spending time with me. You can find some more of Gleb's podcast with me. There are at least two other ones, drdrew.com, if you look for him at the Dr. Drew podcast. And we'll bring you back.

Certainly, there'll be another book, and we'll get you back for that. But probably before then, too, we'll get you in to sort of answer questions. And we'll kind of i would love to do a more comprehensive um cognitive distortion talk one day where we just you know do the map of cognitive distortions that'd be very interesting i i once saw a i once saw a table of cognitive distortions and i was i was really surprised how many there actually are and we should be kind of aware of them so all right thank thank you all right, Gleb, thank you so much. Appreciate you being here.

Thank you so much, Drew. I appreciate you inviting me. You got it. That's Dr. Gleb Saburski. You saw the book. You saw the website. Again, disaster. Put that up there again, Caleb.

Disaster website. There it is. DisasterAvoidanceExperts.com. Caleb? That's right. Yeah, DisasterAvoidanceExper experts.com. Hmm. Caleb. That's right. Yeah. Disaster avoidance experts.com.

Yeah. There you go. All right. Well, anyway, thank you all for being here today. We'll be back on Monday next week. We're going to do a little different schedule next week. It's going to be Monday at three and Tuesday at two.

And then Susan and I have to make our way to Austin for a little after dark visit. That's going to be a interesting to Austin for a little After Dark visit. That's going to be an interesting experience as always. I miss those guys. And as you know, they're busily working away there in Austin doing their thing and we love joining them and we will be there. So look forward to that.

That's Dr. Drew After Dark. If you guys are fans of that show, we appreciate your support. Let me just look at the restream before I sign off here. Thank you, James. Bye, Hitler. You guys are touching a lot of things through the fence. All right.

I think that is that. And we, again, appreciate you all being here. And we will see you on Monday 3 o'clock Pacific time. See you then. Thank you, Caleb. Thank you, Susan. And we'll see you then. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here

are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine

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