Ask Dr. Drew - Gad Saad On “Suicidal Empathy”: Why Smart People Defend Insane Ideas: & How Good Intentions Are Dooming Civilization – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 633

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Elon Musk praised Dr. Gad Saad’s latest book, saying “Western civilization is doomed, unless the core weakness of suicidal empathy is recognized and actions are taken that are hard but necessary for survival.” Saad, who also authored “The Parasitic Mind,” argues that an elite culture has miscalibrated its moral priorities — elevating victimhood, excusing criminals, and branding self-defense as toxic. He breaks down why intelligent, self-aware people double down on destructive ideas, how the “empathy module” gets hijacked, and why he believes civilization is in rapid decline unless the pattern is reversed. Then, retired Canadian Armed Forces Master Warrant Officer Jeff Evely — a 20-year veteran who deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq — joins to discuss his deliberate stand against government overreach after being hit with a fine of more than $28,000 for (intentionally) walking on banned land, a case he intends to challenge in court. Evely also weighs in on the fight over pediatric gender medicine and the politics now driving healthcare decisions for children. Gad Saad, Ph.D. is a scholar at the Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom at the University of Mississippi. He is the author of “Suicidal Empathy: Dying to be Kind” as well as “The Parasitic Mind” and “The Saad Truth About Happiness.” Follow at https://x.com/gadsaad Master Warrant Officer (Ret’d) Jeff Evely is a retired veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces, born and raised in Coxheath, Nova Scotia. He enlisted in 2001 as an electronic communications specialist and served for 20 years, deploying to Afghanistan (2009) and Iraq (2019), and serving with NORAD (2010–2014). In 2025, he ran as a federal candidate for the People’s Party of Canada. Follow at https://x.com/JeffEvely 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 • FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Executive Producers • Kaleb Nation - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • Susan Pinsky - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/firstladyoflove⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Content Producer • Emily Barsh - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/emilytvproducer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, I'm so proud of my friend Gadzad, whose new book, The Suicidal Empathy, not the, just suicidal empathy, is a New York Times bestseller. Everyone is talking about it. I think most people have heard about it. His previous book, The Parasitic Mind, was also very popular. He's an evolutionary behavioral scientist. He is going to be installed in the United States of America. I think he's moving there right now on his way to Old Miss. And he's got a lot of ideas in this new book and explains how the misguided,

compassion is pulling our civilization apart. In fact, Elon Musk has commented several times about the book. Let me see if I can find the comment. Western civilization is doomed unless we confront the destructive ideas. That is Elon Musk. And then after Dr. Sadd, we were going to be joined by retired Canadian master warrant officer Jeff Evley. He, of course, a combat veteran from Afghanistan, and he took a stand against the Canadian

government. He has been fined $28,000 for walking in the woods. Sounds like Canada. And he has some new ideas that he is addressing as well. We'll get into all that right after this. Our laws as it pertain to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopaths start this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction.

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It is GADSADSAD. It is GADS-A-A-D and GADSAD dot com. Check out the book, both the parasitic mind and, of course, suicidal empathy, which we're talking about today. Gad, welcome to the program. So good to be with you. Thank you for having me. Good to see you. My first question is, in your new role in Mississippi, are you still going to be able to visit us during the summer on Laguna Beach?

Well, the goal not yet instantiated, but the objective is to, in Canada, you try to escape the winter. In Mississippi, you try to escape the muggy, unbelievable humidity and heat in the summer. So hopefully if suicidal empathy sales allow me to do so, we would love to buy maybe a condo in Newport Beach so that those two, three months, we will be right there with you, Drew, in Southern California. All right, good, because we will be knocking on your door. I assure you of that.

I'll be hauling you over to, gosh, I just blanked on the name of the taco place you like so much. Oh, Serena Grill. Serena girl. Yes. Okay, there's that. There's another issue that I find. Well, first of all, tell me what the new job is going to be.

So right now, as of speaking to you right now, I'm a scholar at the Declaration of Independence Center for the study of American Freedom at Old Miss. That's a big mouthful. Starting in August, I'll be distinguished professor at, said center. What does it entail? Basically, not too much teaching, but a lot of freedom to write. And of course, what I'm going to be writing about are issues that are fundamental to American freedom, which by the way, it says something very important here that it's the Lebanese Jewish Canadian who's going to be holding the distinguished professorship in American freedom, because

American freedom is not just something that is constrained to the borders of a country called the United States. It's an ethos of which I'm proud to say I represent. So I'm so happy to be going to Ole Miss. I will tell you what, though, the citizens of this country, including yours truly, have taken freedom for granted. And it was really COVID that woke a lot of us up. And now we're starting to see the overreach of government everywhere. And it is, it never occurred to me at this stage of my life, I'd be worrying about freedom of speech, worrying about whether

elections have an integrity to them. There are just so many things that we took for granted that have been running amok for a long time, evidently. Indeed, indeed. And I mean, you mentioned earlier parasitic mind and suicidal empathy. Maybe

I can explain how those two books are related in a grand narrative because it speaks to exactly what you've sort of awoken to. Yeah. Oh, hold on. Okay. Hold on. Before you do that, before you do that, I want you to address one last thing, and then I'm going to have you do that, which is that people don't understand what you are, who you are, and what your training is. I hear, I hear insane criticism. He works in a business school. Please describe to people your training as an evolutionary behaviorist. So basically I apply the lens of evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology to study human behavior in general.

The reason why I'm housed in a business school is because one of the areas where I most apply that lens is an understanding our consumatory nature. So for example, how does the menstrual cycle affect women's shopping behavior? How does testosterone affect men's behavior when it comes to conspicuous consumption? So I take principles from physiology, from anatomy, from evolutionary biology, and I try to find their signature in human behavior in general and in economic behavior in particular. Now let's weave the grand narrative. And I think people get confused when you weave in philosophical concepts like deontology. from the perspective of an evolutionary biologist, but it makes perfect sense to me as a biologist.

So continue. Right. So the story behind the parasitic mind and suicidal empathy is the following. The tension between, oh, are we a reason-based animal or an emotive animal is really a false tension because we are both a thinking and a feeling animal, right? Both our cognitive system has evolved to achieve certain things and our affective system has also evolved to solve certain evolutionarily relevant problems. Now, the parasitic mind talks about what happens to your cognitive system when it is parasitized.

And suicidal empathy then completes the story by explaining what happens to your affective system when it is parasitized. Once I can hijack both your cognitive and affective system, I own your critical thinking or lack thereof. And isn't this just a further refinement of propaganda? And you're just sort of parsing out how the brainwashing goes in two different systems? I mean, exactly right. Although, I mean, when you say propaganda, it seems as though there is sort of a top-down, nefarious meeting. Maybe it's Davos, maybe it's George Soros, that sits together and says,

hey, let's use the neuro-parasitological framework to hijack people's abilities. I don't think it's quite as top-down as that. And let me explain why. So not many. Every single one of the parasitic ideas that eventually leads to suicidal empathy were spawned on university campuses by professors, because as I have repeatedly explained to people, it uniquely takes intellectuals to come up with some of the dumbest ideas that are perfectly decoupled from reality. And the reason for that is very simple, because those professors who pontificate from their pedestals don't have the autocorrective mechanisms of reality to slap them back into the real world. And so they could stand up and pontificate about postmodernism, where there is no

objective truth, up is down, left is right, freedom is war, men are women, and so on and so forth. And so it is the flourishing of these dreadful ideas that were started on university campuses that then led to the reflex of suicidal empathy. So it's not a top-down, let's brainwash everybody, but rather it was an organic thing that led us to where we are now. The, you know, Adam Crowell always talks about, uh, these people living in zero gravity. They have no gravity, you know, they're living in this world of, they're floating and they can just come up with anything because they've never heard. They, they don't experience gravity or economics or usual stressors of living because they, they live in the world of tenured professors. Uh, these, these rarefied environments of university campuses, which have very little relationship.

to either reality or us, which makes sense why they could deny things like The Truth. But be that, it's been a terrible idea. And in fact, I heard a French philosopher about seven years ago wondering how in the world we arrived here. I mean, she was literally saying, she was like, these are philosophers from 75 years ago. They have no relevance. We don't even think about Chaucer and Derrida. These guys were playing games 75 years ago, and we cast them aside.

And you're now elevating them to an important center stage in your philosophical thinking. It's crazy. Right. I don't know if I've ever told you the story in 2002 where I challenged a postmodernist graduate student. Does that ring a bell at all? No. Do you remember not? No, okay.

Because I just didn't want to be repetitive. But I think even if I had mentioned it before, it's worth repeating because it's going to speak exactly to the French postmodernist that you referenced. So there's Michel Foucault, Jacques Derrida, Jacques Lacan, and a few others. So in 2002, one of my doctoral students had just defended his dissertation with me. And so we were going out to a celebratory dinner. And so it was myself, my wife, him, and he was bringing a date along. So before we were to head out on this dinner, he calls me up somewhat nervously to say, oh, I just wanted to give you a heads up that the lady that I'm bringing today,

is a graduate student in women's studies, cultural anthropology, cultural anthropology, and postmodernism, to which I answered, ah, okay, so the holy trinity of bullshit. And I said, oh, okay, but don't worry, I understand this is your night. I'm going to be on my best behavior. Don't worry, we're going to have a nice night, which, of course, which of course was an abject lie. So about halfway through the dinner, I turned to this lady,

and I said, oh, I hear you're a postmodernist. And she was studying at one of the top university, if not the top university in Canada. She says, yes, I'm a postmodernist. I said, so there are no universal truths, yes? She goes, no. I said, well, I'm an evolutionary psychologist, so I do think that there are some, for example, human universals. Do you mind if I propose what I think might be a universal and then we can discuss it to see

how you're going to argue it's not a universal? She goes, yeah, sure, go ahead, shoot. Now, remember, this is 2002, so it's 24 years ago. so it predates all the transgender activism nonsense. I said, well, is it not true that within Homo sapiens, it is only women that bear children? So she kind of looks at me, you know, completely with incredulity. How could a professor be so dumb?

She says, absolutely not true. I said, it's not true that only women bear children. How so? She goes, well, because there is a Japanese tribe of some Japanese island where it is within their cultural, folkloric realm, mythological realm that the men bear children. So by you restricting it to the materialist realm,

that's how you keep women barefoot and pregnant. So then I said, after I recovered from the mini stroke I had at hearing such nonsense, I said, okay, well, how about I now propose a slightly less controversial example? Because to say that only women bear children in a sexually dimorphic, sexually reproducing species,

seem to have kind of bothered you. Is it not true since time immemorial that sailors have relied on the premise that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west? And now to your earlier reference of Jacques Derrida, she used deconstructionism to that language creates reality.

She said, what do you mean that east and west? And what do you mean the sun? That which you call the sun, I might call dancing hyena, to which I answered, Well, fine, the dancing hyena rises in the east and sets in the West. She said, I don't play those label games. Well, the fact that 25 years ago, 24 years ago,

I couldn't get a graduate student to agree with me that there is such a thing as the sun and that women bear children tells you all you need to know about the state we're in right now. Well, don't worry. She's the head of departments now at some university in Canada. No, no, she's called Justin Trude. So perfect, perfect. But I do have one more question for you as it pertains to your Canadian circumstance. Are you going to become a U.S. citizen?

Inshallah, from your lips to God's ear. Right now, I'm getting my green card, my permanent residency. And then once that happens, then, of course, the goal is to eventually become as American as Dr. Drew. Maybe you as a birthing male could give birth to some kids while you're here that they could be U.S. citizens also. And I'm looking at you to hopefully impregnate me. Maybe you could pass some of those genes to my children, Drew. Do you think you're up for that? But that really does lead to me in my next query, which is, and is why would evolutionary, you know, evolutionary biology does not go on a straight line.

to more successful species. You know, it's herky jerky, it's for, it's experimentation, then something breaks through, right? But generally speaking, I was trained deeply in evolutionary biology. And whenever I want to understand something, why is something the way it is, I looked to evolution to help me understand what the evolutionary stressors were,

what the, you know, the environment of evolutionary adapted us, provided for us that we came out with X. and I really have a deep understanding of why we have an affective system and a cognitive system and why we think fast and we think slow and all these things that have been sort of discussed in the public in the cultural literature now. But I do not understand, I hope I can form this question in a way that's answerable or at least understandable. Why we evolved this way at this time, there must be some evolutionary pressure that causes us to go this direction

Furthermore, why mobs behave the way they do? And what you're alleging is that it is sort of a bottom up phenomenon rather than top down, which I agree with you. So top down does play a role. It is mostly a bottom up

thing that's happening here. Why in the world? What is it in our evolutionary pressers? Go ahead. Do you have too many people in the world? We need to have, we need to shrink the population because it make us unsuccessful as reproducing species?

No, let me answer the first part of your question, because I think that kind of will address the whole thing. So, suicidal empathy is the maladaptive firing of an otherwise adaptive process. And I think you exactly understand what I mean by that, but let me, let me sort of break it down for the audience. Take, for example, I meet you at a party. We've never met before, Drew. And I noticed that prior to you coming up to me, you're incessantly sneezing into your hand.

And so I will code that as it looks like this gentleman is suffering from some type of cold. And so I'm going to be polite and shake his hand. But then after we finish shaking hands, I'm going to discreetly head off to the bathroom, wash my hands so that hopefully I don't take his pathogen. And so it made perfect evolutionary sense for me to scan the environment for potential threat. and then tend to that threat. OCD and the specific germ contamination manifestation of OCD is the maladaptive hyperfiring of that otherwise adaptive process.

The person who suffers from germ contamination fear has the warning flag go up. I head off to the bathroom to wash my hands, but then I can't extricate from the infinite loop of then spending eight hours washing my hands and scolding water. So what started off as an adaptive mechanism misfired and became maladaptive. Well, that's exactly what I argue is happening with empathy, right? Empathy, when it is expressed within well-modulated, evolutionarily rational ranges, is a perfectly reasonable thing for us to possess.

We are a social species for you and I to have a meaningful conversation. Somebody's talking over the thing. Yeah, you're... Your other destination. Okay, I heard it. So for you and I to have a meaningful conversation, I need to put myself in your mind and vice versa. That's called cognitive empathy or theory of mind. And so that's perfectly fine. But as Aristotle explained to us several thousand years ago via his golden mean, for most things in life, too little of something is not good, too much of something is not good. And life is about finding that sweet spot. That exactly applies to empathy.

no empathy, that's a good signature of a psychopath, if I have hyper empathy, if it is invoked in the wrong situation, and if it targets the inappropriate targets, that cocktail creates suicidal empathy. So it's not that there is an adaptive explanation for our imbecility. It's that an adaptive process misfires and becomes maladaptive, not unlike how cells divide, and that's perfectly reasonable, but in cancer cells, there is no stopping mechanism to that cell division. Yeah, and I, that makes perfect sense to me. I totally adhere to that line of thinking. And I've always held the position that most mental illnesses are a often highly adaptive system that goes sideways when it's exactly right, maybe not needed in the same way.

but the other thing is when empathy is disturbed, that's usually a narcissistic trait. Now, I'm moving into psychology a little bit here as sort of an explanation for the setting of empathic suicidality. And I have documented, and we have plenty of documentation that there has been a narcissistic turn in this country particularly. I don't know what's going on worldwide, but it seems like there's a lot of it going on. all over the place. Certainly in Western Europe, there's a lot of suicidal empathy. Am I accurate on that front? You are.

Early in the book, I actually talk about narcissism, and I use the actual Greek store of Narcissus, right? I mean, he is so imbued of self-love that he ends up falling because he's admiring himself, you know, his reflection and his beauty. Well, I argue, to your point, that in suicidal empathy, what I'm doing is I am stroking my luxuriant hair while admiring myself in the mirror of moral preening. Look what a good person I am. I don't judge, fellow.

I love that. Look what a good. Right. So you're exactly right. I am going to steal moral preening. I will give you credit for it, but I am going to use that. The mirror of moral of preening. I love it.

Okay, hold on. We're going to take a little break here. Gad said, well, we're on the break. You can follow him on X, Gadsad, S-A-A-A-D. You can go to Amazon and get the book, read the book. It's important to our historical moment. Clearly, people are responding to it. It's a New York Times bestseller.

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Dr. Drew said the best way to quit drinking is by going cold turkey, and he's a doctor. So why would you question doctors? Dr. Drew called me unfixable. And of course, shout out to our friends at Pahlia Valley. And when we travel, we are grateful to we have packed our three favorite products, the grass-fed and finished beef sticks, the venison version 2, full of nutrients and protein,

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of the chocolate bone broth because we like to do it every day. And there is a difference between paleo valleys and other brands. It is actually made from bones, not hides, and it's delicious. For 15% off your first order, go to doctor.com slash paleo valley or 20% off when you subscribe. Again, that is doctor.com slash paleo valley. I'm speaking to my friend Gad Sad, who's now going to be joining us here at Old Miss. Also mentioned that we were on that cruise ship right behind you in that picture. Oh, I didn't see a picture come up. Yeah, our floating home on the sea. It was amazing.

Hey, and Susan, if you could move that screen, I think that may be the reason I didn't see what came up. But so, Gat and I were talking about the narcissistic turn and suicidal empathy and moral preening, which is a construct I just love. But it also kind of, anytime I can understand things, I get less anxious about it. And this kind of helps me understand things like even Trump derangement syndrome, because nothing upsets a narcissist more than another narcissist. They like vibrate with the intensity from one another. And that explains Robert De Niro to me, for instance, why he would react so violently to Trump. And it is a time, though, where we're confusing compassion and empathy.

Look, for instance, the ultimate construct for me is the homelessness, which I have been yelling about for 20 years. That is homicidal empathy. You are taking people that are treatable and leaving them to just lie on the street and die. And you're not allowing anybody to, physicians or nurses to help them who are trained to do so. And you think of yourself as empathic for doing that. And you're giving them drugs and you're giving them rigs and you're doing all these things that lead to their death. These are progressive illnesses that end to death that have a treatment.

If you don't treat, they will die. And the empathic caring world is engaged in homicidal negligence. but absolutely refuses to acknowledgements. So this sort of begs the question, how do you get the most suicidally empathic people to drop their denial and acknowledge what's happening to them? It's very tough. So in the last chapter of suicidal empathy,

I offer an inoculation against suicidal empathy, which includes several very concrete prescriptions. And so in an optimistic sense, there is a way for me to administer a mind vaccine that inoculates you against suicidal empathy. But here's the pessimistic part. For many people, they decide that they don't want to come to the mind vaccine center to get inoculated, right?

I mean, I can't protect you against polio if you don't come and take the vaccine. If you think that polio is a Zionist plot, right? So that's number one. Number two, the speed at which I could administer the mind vaccine to inoculate you against suicidal empathy is much slower than the rate at which the tsunami of suicidal empathy is hitting our shores of reason. And so it's a challenge, but I'm up for it. And that's why I come on these shows. That's why I keep screaming into the wind. That's why I keep writing these books, because I think that we could still turn it around. But I see no evidence that most Western

countries are even willing to implement one millimeter of the autocorrective procedures, that can get us out of this quagmire. Well, I don't know how you maintain that positive bias. If there's not any evidence of things moving in the right direction. That's just the random genetic combination of my genes that make me have a sunny disposition. I'm fortunate that way. Yeah, I know that. I get that.

I have a positive bias too. But inoculation suggests preventative measures. Are there treatments for those who are suffering most? Right. So I'll give you one concrete manifestation of the mind vaccine. So many people who are suicidally empathetic are what in the book I talk about the myopia of first order effects, meaning that they think that the world ends with first orders. And therefore they're completely oblivious to second order, third order, the downstream consequences of the immediate dopamine hit that you get because of your largesse. your empathy, right? So there is millions of people that are knocking at the door to come into the United States. Don't you think if we are kind and compassionate people, all of those people deserve to be in the United States, just like you asshole who was simply born in the United States? What gives you the right to have that existential privilege that Ahmed Muhammad, born in Waziristan, didn't get? So if I view

the world through the landscape of first order effects. And if I'm looking, you're the addiction specialist, if I'm looking for that empathy-based dopamine hit, then I am truly myopic. And therefore, I open the door and let the future sort itself out. So there are mechanisms by which I can train you to think that what you do today, you will be paying for it in a bit longer. I just need you to be a bit less temporarily myopic and recognize that there is a slippery slope down there to the right. I think we might have to change their entire worldview. How did you come up with the inoculations? Just sitting in the coffee shop thinking about it? I called you one day. You were in a coffee house writing the book. Sure. And actually, I remember you said something very sweet. I remember

exactly which cafe I was at because that cafe no longer exists. It was actually run by a beautiful Moroccan couple, truly lovely people. You said, I just needed to speak to you because I need to speak someone who's rational and I'm losing my mind out here. So how do I come up with this stuff? I think a, if I may say, forgive the immodesty, a deep understanding of human nature that allows me to understand and diagnose why people are behaving this way. And then hopefully, offering a solution to it. Yeah, and it is the lack of awareness or acknowledgement or acceptance of human nature that is creating so much of this stuff.

I see that over and over again. That's the other side of this equation. I'm surprised we've spent this, what time is it? We've been together half an hour and you haven't brought up deontology. So I insist you do so because I don't want to be left out of that conversation. Okay. So let me explain the ontology versus consequentially. in the context of a topic that I discuss in suicidal empathy.

So in the book, I talk about the concept of forbidden knowledge, and I refer to it as epistemological empathy, meaning that rather than, for example, a university adhering to an epistemology of truth, right? Here is the means by which we go about finding out what truth is. That becomes secondary to an epistemology of care. What's most important is to maximize kindness and compassion. So, for example, if somebody does perfectly unbiased and proper scientifically sound studies

that demonstrate that different immigrant groups are not equally likely to assimilate within the Western tradition, well, even though that might be perfectly true and therefore it adheres to an epistemology of truth, you should not publish those results because it doesn't adhere to an epistemology of care because you'd be marginalizing those immigrant groups that are less likely to assimilate. Now, having said that, how do we link that to deontological versus consequentialist? Deontological means it's an absolute statement. So, for example, if I say it is never okay to lie, that would be a deontological statement. If I say it is okay to lie to spare someone's feelings.

For example, if your spouse says, do I look fat in those genes? And if you wish to remain married for a long time, then you might say, no, you've never looked more beautiful. I've never seen you this beautiful. Now, I may be lying, but I'm lying to spare the feelings of a person that I love. Now, for many things in life, all of us are consequentialists, and that makes perfect sense. But when it comes to foundational principles, freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry, presumption of innocence.

Those have to be deontological. If they're not, then you are violating that foundational precept on which the society is built. So if you say, I believe in freedom of speech, but not if it hurts marginalized groups' feelings,

well then you're an asshole. So that's the distinction between deontology and consequentialism. And by the way, that's exactly what trans activists do, right? Because what they're saying is, yes, it may technically be true that when we say that men menstruate, we are murdering truth and raping truth. But that noble lie is worth espousing because there is a greater objective, and that is to celebrate the unique personhood of this marginalized group. what's what's really

disturbing for me about the kindness is that many people require a firm hand it's hard work like the addict that's where I see it all the time you need a very firm consistent it's hard work

you're like holding the line against the addiction as opposed to here take your heroin which is very kind and the easiest thing in the world and they will lead to death and they just those kinds of nuances can completely left out of the equation. May I follow on your very

erudite conversation about deontology and epistemology with a joke that Icy told me from Tracy Morgan and it pertains to your wife asking you do I look fat. So this is a Tracy Morgan joke told to me by IST. Tracy Morgan says

the woman comes up to a husband and says do I look fat? And he goes, and I want you to be, she says, I want you to be totally honest. And the husband goes, you want me to be totally honest, completely honest. I just absolute, abject honest. And she goes, yes, I want you to be totally honest. And he goes, the husband says, I had sex with your sister. And that was the response to, are you fat? So, so, so that was a wild joke from Tracy Morgan. Lastly, how do we deal with? with the universities, because that's where the infect, from whence the infection emerges.

Is there, is it subjecting them to gravity? That's what I think is necessary. If you subject them to market forces, which is effectively gravity, they will be forced to get back to the reality of having gravity. Right. So I'll answer that in two ways. Number one, to your point, the reason why some disciplines are inherently more inoculated against all those parasitic ideas is because they are applied disciplines that are coupled to reality. So the people who are saying, oh, but he's in the business school. The reason why in the business school, we are less likely to have parasitic ideas, because if you build an economic model of consumer choice using lesbian dance theory

epistemology, it's not going to predict much. And similar with the engineering school, if you're building a bridge using indigenous queer knowledge, it's not going to result in a bridge that you can cross because it's likely to break apart. So because those disciplines are inherently applied and hence tethered to reality, that builds somewhat of an immunity, not full. There are still complete imbeciles walking around in the business school and in the engineering school, but less so than in the humanities or in the social sciences and so on. But the more general answer to your question is that the lopsidedness in academia is so it's astounding, Drew. And let me explain this to your audience in terms of some

scientific effects. So if I were to test for the efficacy of a drug and half the people I give them a placebo and the other half I give them the experimental drug, and it turns out that there's an odds ratio of 1.2 to 1, meaning that the experimental group had 20% greater efficacy than the placebo. Now, the effect there is 1.2 to 1. Now, in many disciplines in academia, the ratio of Democrat professors to Republican professors is not 1.2 to 1. It's 130 to 1. So did you get that? So a statistically significant effect in science is in the order of 1 to 1.2, the reality of law Lopsidedness in academia is hundreds of orders of magnitude more lopsided. Now, in many disciplines, the fact that you have that lopsidedness doesn't matter.

If I am a professor in pure mathematics and I'm teaching about the distribution of prime numbers, the fact that I love Kamala Harris or I hate Kamala Harris won't affect how I tackle the distribution of prime numbers. But for many fields where we're discussing, is it moral, is the death penalty, moral. Should the society that we live in be an isolationist society or an interventionist society? There are valuable arguments to be had on both sides of the political aisle. But if everybody is on, and when I say everybody, I literally mean everybody in many, many disciplines, it's 100 to 1, 130 to 1, 140 to 0. You're more likely to run into a unicorn than into a Republican sociology professor, as Thomas Sowell explained.

that's the problem because then you don't have a vigorous debate between competing ideas, a Darwinian process, right? That's called evolutionary epistemology. You only have one group of people that monopolize your understanding of truth, and then you end up with the degenerates that we see in society. Do you see suicidal empathy at work in the recent elections in California and Los Angeles, particularly? I mean, I do in that, of course. you would have thought that, is it Pratt?

That's his name? I remember his name. Is it Pratt? Yeah. Right. So, right. Pratt was offering certain interventions and auto-corrective policies that would have, you know, held the tide of suicidal empathy.

And people said, now, I'm assuming that everything was run properly in California that is up for a debate. We don't know the truth. But California said, no, you know what? on every conceivable metric by which you judge the success of politicians, California is an abject failure. I mean, if it were a student, we wouldn't be giving them an F. It would be some measure that's well below F. Well, here's a great idea. Let's double down and triple down on hiring exactly the same people with the exact same policies and hopefully our problem will magically go

away. It's unbelievable, Drew. It's positively weird, isn't it? I, It's why, I guess, people call into question the legitimacy of the election because they look at this and they just think, wait, something is a miss. Could people really be okay with this? Or I don't know. When they, go ahead. No, forgive me for interrupting you. I do have a possible, I mean, not an explanation, but something that supports our respective incredulity at how voters don't change their minds. about two years ago, Drew, I appeared on a show hosted by a British psychiatrist.

And he was the only one. And I've been a professor for 32 years. He was the only one to ever ask me this question at the end of the show. He said, Professor Sadd, in all your years as a behavioral scientist, what is the singular phenomenon that has most surprised you about the human condition? And I wasn't prepared for that question. So I paused for a minute and I said, the inability. to change people's opinions once they're deeply anchored.

And so that speaks exactly to your question. It doesn't matter how much evidence you give me. I am a progressive person. I'm always going to vote progressive. And that's it. La, la, la, la, I don't want to hear it. Yeah, you did have, in order to change, I've gotten deep into this material.

And you have to change their worldview and also change their social relations. because that's very much woven into their identity. It's like people around them and how they're perceived and how they perceive others. So yeah. But you would think just in the name of just the evidence is so overwhelming that things are not working,

that you would just want something to try something different, or at least not want the people that have brought us all this failure to continue to bring it. I don't know. But it's clearly happening. So it's not, you know, whatever I think about it doesn't seem to matter. Professor Sad, it is a privilege to have you and talk to you. And I look forward to see you in the behind the orange curtain here in California one of these days very soon.

And good luck. Is your whole, are you kids moving with you down to Mississippi? Everybody's moving. The Sads are becoming Mississippians. Well, congratulations. And we'll see you stateside, my friend. I love the South. Thank you, Doc.

Back to you soon. Cheers. We'll get the book, everybody. Follow him on X. Go get the book. We have a call on hold. We have two calls on hold. Yeah, one coming in.

What's that second one say? It's not come in yet. And you can alpha. I don't know what that means. I know. But do you, Caleb, would you like me to go to those calls out of the break here? How should we organize this? Yeah, let's go ahead and go to break.

So we're on time. And then bring in some callers. Some of them might be related to the next guest, Jeff Evilly. All right, fair enough. Fair enough. Be right back up for this. Hey, Dr. Drew here, and we are interested in health and longevity, and the longevity nutrient is Fatty 15, discovered amazingly by a veterinarian

who was responsible for the Navy's fleet of dolphins. Turns out dolphins are healthier when they have adequate amounts of pentadecanoic acid, which is C-15. It also, for us, it helps humans as well, reduces the oxidative stress on our cell membranes, which is part of the aging process. called ferruposis. So she takes it. I take it. Whole family takes it. And if you'd like some, go to Dr. Drew.com slash fatty 15 for yours. There are discounts there. Oh my God. Look, Drew, it's a dolphin. Oh my gosh. Hey, Dr. Drew here. And even when we travel, we bring the new convenient

fatty gummies. They're delicious and they're portable and they're great. And remember, this is a longevity ingredient. It fights against the oxidative stress on our cell membranes. We called that process for optosis, discovered in dolphin research by Dr. Van Watson. And I'm taking this every day, even when I travel. It's fatty 15. I want to take a quick call here. Eric. Janice, go ahead.

Christine, you're an ER nurse. Dr. Drew, what happens if you inject something oil based directly into a vein? Did the drug company lie to the government or did the government just choose the lie to the public? New and here is very good. We're able to express ourselves. I don't see the profession doing anything to really build trust beside you. Happy to be on here. Thank you for having me.

You and I see the world the same way. What is it like for you to be the most chiseled and best-looking man in media? Giving us the information we need. Thank you for the truth. My pleasure. We are going to take your calls at 8333-D-R-D-R-A-W. He is the best-looking man. And we are going to take your calls, John, hold on there.

I'll be with you in a second, and I see this second call. I only can identify it. Also, I just want to say something quick about fatty 15. You know, we love the product. I take it every day, and I walked a lot when we went on. We went to the F1 and we walked 15,000 steps. That's a lot for me, okay? I sit on my butt a lot around here.

But I got to say that the fatty 15 really helps with my joint inflammation. And when I didn't take the pill for two days, I started getting really achy and tight again. So I think it really has something to do with that. It seems to for you. You've said that all along. And Douglas seems to get something like that too out of it. I am interested in longevity.

And as such, it's just my regular go-to. Jeff Evely on X, you can follow him with Jeff Evley, E-E-E-E-E-L-Y, and also People's Party of Canada.ca. The website is n-S-E-P-P-C-C-A. Jeff, welcome back. Thanks for having me back to you. It's a pleasure to be here. Hey, do me a favor.

Give a brief description, if you wouldn't mind, of the walking in the woods fiasco and what the status is of that presently. Sure thing. Two housekeeping items first. Number one, I'm not actually a combat vet. I was a support trade. And number two, I'm not with the people's party anymore. But what happened with...

what happened with the woods ban was, so they brought in blanket ban on anybody entering the woods in the summer of 2025, ostensibly to prevent wildfires. This was actually the second such time that they've done that. They did it in 2020, as well. And I tried to take them to court in 2023 to have these measures reviewed in light of our constitutional rights. And the judge said that because I was not directly harmed, that I did not have standing in the court, but had I gotten fined, then I would have had standing. So when they came in with the blanket ban again in 2025, I knew what I had to do. So I called the Department of Natural Resources, and I spoke to a supervisor, and I made an appointment to go into the office to get $28,872.50 fine. And the video that you're showing here on your screen is the one of me attending the Department of National Resources office and speaking with the officers there, there were pretty good

supports about it. There was some initial effort to deter me from entering the woods at all. They threatened to double my fine, but ultimately we all shook hands. And a couple of weeks later, when I saw one of them, we had a pretty good laugh about it. Since last summer, what's happened is the Justice Center for Constitutional freedoms stepped in to represent me, not just in defending me against the fine, but also in submitting a constitutional challenge to the proclamation issuing the blanket ban on entering the woods in the first place. That one is in my private interest. And the Canadian Constitution Foundation, which is another excellent civil liberties organization

here in Canada, they submitted another constitutional. institutional challenge in the public interest. So we actually had two different civil liberties organizations, one public interest, one private interest case, bringing these measures into the light of our charter rights. And when we got to court in March, honestly, I thought it was open and shut on the first morning. The opening arguments were so powerful that it didn't seem to me

that the government had a leg to stand on. and we had three days of hearings. On the third day, the government lawyer got up to present his case. And the problem that they had from the very beginning, really, was that they even tried to argue in their written submissions that we didn't actually have constitutionally protected rights to Rome. They said that our freedom of movement does not mean that we have the freedom to move freely in a free society.

And they put that in writing. As a matter of fact, we do, and it was actually quite entertaining for somebody like me to get to listen to the lawyers, reference the Magna Carta, and explain to the judge that the right to Rome is actually ancient. We've had it for about 800 years. And so there was a little bit of levity there in the courtroom, even on the part of the judge, around the idea that we do not have the right to Rome. and I was pretty surprised at how quickly he renders his decision, and I was very surprised at how concise it was, because it was only 17 pages long. By contrast, the ruling in the constitutional case

against the invocation of the Emergency Measures Act against the Freedom Convoy, that was 120-page ruling. So it was quite open and shut. I thought I was very pleased to read the decision, and I think it's a big win for, freedom in Canada, I hope. Did it change the behavior of the parliament? Well, the Premier, the Premier was asked about the ruling at a press conference,

and he stated quite bluntly that he would do it again. He would always do whatever it took to protect property, something like that. And he said that he would do it again. So I was asked on a radio interview with a local station here recently what I would do and I said, well, then I will do it again. I will violate the ban again. And I hope that more people... We need to hear what the judge would say. Yeah.

I think what they'll do is they'll probably kind of tweet their approach a little bit to not be as flagrantly in violation of our constitutional rights. but I hope that more people will be emboldened to defy these mandates. We're going to take a quick call together here. This is John calling us. John, you're on with Jeff Evelie. Hi, thank you for taking my call. I really appreciate it. I was trying to follow this, you know, important guest from Canada and the law and things.

But I really called about your previous guest. and I'm a Southerner, so I have to kind of basically put things in a simple format or express it simply. And what I looked at was what he's discussing and he's bringing up is very good, the gentleman before, excellent. And I do listen to him on a podcast quite a bit. My point would be, if you look at the United States as an example, we're one of the fastest growing countries. over the last 125 years. And if you look at the merging of populations from all over the world

and the success we had in business, you start seeing a change in the cultural environment. Used to, when I was growing up in 60s, they would say, you know, you're fat, dumb and happy because of the advancement stuff. Well, with that, people have more spare time, there's a consciousness of what's going on. Environmental things became more important.

You had women's rights. You had all these different things that previously were not there. And what I see is what he's saying is dovetails into that in my simple way of stating it. Because you see how the culture has changed. And we call it fat, dumb, and happy. And as you see that, it continues to change. John, I would add two things to that. Yeah.

And it being given some super fuel by the academics. But there are two phenomenon that are, one is Rob Henderson's idea of luxury beliefs. That the people that hold some of these extraordinary ideas are in positions where they have no relationship even with the people that they claim to have these. beliefs about, let alone having experience it themselves. And the other phenomenon is something called oikophobia, which is essentially hatred of your own culture or country. And apparently, oikophobia breaks out every time a country is very successful. And I think that's really what you're talking about.

That this phenomenon, you know, where there's more leisure and more sort of, you know, it's like alcoholics are really good in bad. battle, but when there's no bullets flying, they might start drinking. It's the same kind of phenomenon I think you're describing, John. Yes. May I say one other thing? As you look at what has occurred and where we are today, I see it as people have different socialization in the environment that we live in in culturally.

And as you do that, you start to identify with, different cultures, like you said. I put it in a very simple way of thinking about, but I do read. I have dyslexia, unfortunately. So for me, reading takes more time. I have to really do a lot of work, you know, marking things, all kinds of stuff. But I read and I understand a lot more in this area. And the more I look into it, the more it starts to make sense. And what he has said, saying or has been saying absolutely you know he uses terms that i couldn't even pronounce however i look them up yeah yeah and i he's he's a academic i just want to say he was an excellent oh yeah oh yeah and he's excellent guest okay and i do listen to him like i said quite a bit

and i learn a lot thank you good appreciate thank you for your call my friend uh Ryan hold on there we'll get you in a minute here um any thoughts about that Jeff? Yeah, I do have some thoughts. It is kind of part of a natural cycle, as is my understanding. And I get what he's saying, and he's saying culture, but I think what he's describing is more like the social mood. And there is a pretty good theory out there, I think very important, pertinent to what we're dealing with now, called Strauss Howe generational theory that was first published in a book called Generations in 1991 that predicted that the civilization, we face a major crisis.

It would be threatened by a major crisis in the year 2020 plus or minus two years. And it's always the case that we go through these cycles of total war, collapse and rebirth. As a matter of fact, it's been 82 years since D-Day. 81 years before that was the Battle of Gettysburg, and 82 years before that was the colonial triumph at Yorktown. So it is part of a natural cycle. And when we come out of these crises, we go into a social mood that is high.

Things are back on the upswing. We're rebuilding. The economy is booming. Population explodes. And then in the next generation, essentially, the social mood changes to more frenzied, to kind of like the awakening, is what they would call it in the theory,

the vernacular of the theory. So that would be like the 60s, 70s. And then in the next turning, the third turning, is the unraveling. So we all have a sense that things are kind of headed in the wrong direction, but things are still pretty good. So nobody's really terribly animated about it. And then in the fourth turning, which is where we are now, the social mood is at its lowest. And, you know, everything is kind of falling apart. So the good news is that it is a temporary state of affairs. It's a crisis era that we enter into every four generations and it has a beginning and an end. So we're due to come out of it about 20, 30 or so.

It's funny. It's the second day in a row that the fourth turning has come up in conversation here. To get on to the different topic, you were involved in an interaction with a psychiatrist at Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario. Can you tell us about that? experience? So what happened was my daughter had been, well, I had initially taken her to the mental health clinic of the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario to be seen for depression when she was 14. She insisted on attending these appointments by herself. I mean, after we did the initial intake and whatnot. So she attended like three appointments where I would just kind of hang out in the car and have coffee or something. And then when I went in to do a

check up with the clinicians, I found that she had been referred to the Jenna Clinic without my knowledge. We attended a few appointments there where they tried to browbeat and gas light me, and then we stopped going. So about a year and a half later, I deployed to Iraq, and while I was in Iraq, the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario started calling my daughter's phone directly because she just turned 16, which is the legal age of consent in Ontario, and they told her that she didn't need my permission anymore. She could come back in to continue down the path of biomedical transition. So I attended those appointments.

I actually took early leave from Iraq to see Dr. Stephen Fedder, who was the head of the department there, and he offered puberty blockers on the first appointment and was actually quite aghast that I had any questions about it and gave me kind of all the same woke answers that we're all so used to hearing now about how puberty blockers are perfectly reversible and being transgender is analogous to being gay, which it is not, of course, one is a preference and the other one is an epistemological claim. So I attended a few more appointments like this. I recorded the appointments that I attended after that initial one. Stephen Fedder, like he told me that when I asked him how he knew that my daughter was in fact a male trapped in a female body,

he said that he had looked into her heart and soul. And when I asked him how he knew that a soul existed, he said, I don't have to answer that question. And things escalated from there. We were referred to endocrinology, where Dr. Maria Keely told me that, you know, that the puberty blockers would be reversible. And when I again asked for some kind of evidence, some kind of evidence to support her claim, she said, we're not going to be able to give you that evidence. She was quite contemptible and I would say psychologically abusive even. And, you know, when I tried to raise concerns, she would ask where I was getting this information. I said I read up on it. I read some studies. And she said, you know, that she would provide me with studies to support her claims. And

when I showed up for the next appointment with a stack of papers about that thick, and put them down in front of where she ran out of the room. So that was the last time that we attended. Thankfully, COVID was our saving grace. But if you listen to the recordings that I made, I think it's pretty clear that they are ideological fanatics and acting in that capacity, as opposed to acting in their capacity as doctors. What happened with COVID again?

Well, the appointments stopped, despite all their claims that my daughter was going to commit suicide. If we didn't transition her, it seems it's not as life-saving as they initially let on because when COVID hits, they weren't bringing her into these appointments to save her life. How was she doing now? Not well. She is 23 now and has been living with her mother for the last few years. she cut off contact with me in 2023, and she just had her healthy breasts removed last September. Well, I mean, she's an adult now, right? It's a very different circumstance. Does she feel that she was deprived of something by not starting this all earlier? That, I don't know, because I'm sure she probably would say that. However, I would also say that.

you know, the 23 is still too young based on my understanding of the data. Well, 22 would have been when she had the surgery, but there's an 88% rate of desistence by age 23, and by age 25, that goes up to about 93%. So all of the data that we do have shows that, you know, the overwhelming majority of people will overcome this through the natural process of maturation. Caleb, you keep throwing up this headline here. What is that? Yes, it's breaking news that came in just a few hours before our show,

where it's the FTC is suing W Path, the transmedical group for misleading guidance on gender transition for minors. And I think multiple states are involved in the lawsuit as well. It just came out a few hours ago. And based on new data, or what is this based on? From what I was able to read real, like briefly right before the show, it's kind of, it's about fraudulently presenting misleading guidance. So it's misleading data and presenting it as these are things that have been proven already.

And, you know, suppressing studies and not releasing them, like what happened, I believe it was a year or two ago with the Children's Hospital of Los Angeles researcher. When it didn't agree with the narrative that they wanted, they just withheld the whole study entirely, which is not how science works. Right. Which. Right. Well, it's how science works. of these days. And, you know, medicine is, is, and you talked about the fourth turning, Jeff.

One of the things that's falling apart is medical literature. And there was a study, Vinay Prasad, reviewed from JAMA internal medicine that was making the claim that multiple COVID boosters reduced to cardiovascular risk at 10 days, I believe it was. But in any event, it was just deeply flawed. and that gets published and studies that want to look at the risks don't get published, of course. And are you having difficulty? It sounds like you're going through the medical literature.

How do you find that experience? Definitely eye-opening. It's shocking how out of step the standards of care, that's what they're referring to in that article there. It's the Medical Association. That's it there. It's the World Professionals Association for Transgender Health. And Mia Hughes is a personal friend of mine. We actually organized, well, I and my small team of volunteers organized an event in Ottawa on the 5th of May, called May Day Kids in Crisis,

where we sought to bring an end to childhood transition in Canada. And Mia was one of our expert speakers. We did a parliamentary press gallery in the morning and around. in the afternoon and then town hall with a panel of experts and those with lived experience of the harms of gender audiology in the evening. The whole day went off without a hitch, thanks to my excellent and dedicated volunteers. But Canada is an outlier, actually, in this regard. I see the United States is turning things around, and we've already seen Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, the UK, taking steps to reverse course. on this as well. But Canada

continues to double down. And we actually have a very odious law in Canada. Bill C4 conversion therapy was passed in 2022. I think it reached Royal Ascent passed in 2021. But any

parent who tries to who takes their child to a therapist for a talk therapy to alleviate their gender dysphoria faces five years in jail. So is the therapist and any parent who takes their child out of country to be seen by a therapist faces five years in jail for doing that in Canada. So it's leading to a lot of problems, you know, as you might

expect, especially where, you know, people have comorbid conditions in addition to their gender dysphoria. They might also have other conditions. But to be able to explore that would be to break the law, essentially. The only legal option is biomedical transition. And my read of the literature is that post-op transsexuals, I mean, the marketing on this is around preventing suicide, but post-op transsexuals have suicide rates about 19 times that of the general population and even other health complications resulting from the transition will eventually kill them. They only last about 10 to 12 years after the transition. And about eight years out is when the suicide rate

really starts to spike. So this is inhumane, what's being done, especially to kids. And it needs to stop. Jeff, where do you want people to follow you? You can follow me on X. It's at Jeff Evely, just my name. And you can also find me on Facebook.

And again, if you just type in my name, Jeff Evely on both pages. I use my real name, but I'm also the magnanimous Gen X or male. So when it comes up, you'll know who I am. Thanks. Good to see you again. You too. Thanks, Drew.

Jeff Evley. Right now I'm going to go to Ryan, who's called in here a moment ago. That was really intense. Yeah. Just so sad, like mental health needs to be taken care of before transitions. I just don't like bad medicine. And I don't like bad medical science. I don't like bad medicine.

If people are being harmed, we're not doing our job. That's it, period. Jeff, Ryan, rather. Hey. Am I? What's going on there? Yes, you are. Hey, okay, cool.

So during COVID, I was the one that got you on Cameo to read the medical terms like David Allen Greer. So thank you for that. I don't know if you remember. I remember something about that. But yes. So what he's talking about is like,

Dagg used to have me read just random mediciations, frankly, from the PDR. And then he would turn that into a character, essentially. So I had a question. Adam would always, on Loveline,

Adam would always kind of get mad at you about when you guys were coming back to break that the guests were distracted because they were doing a questionnaire. What was that questionnaire? those questions for? That was the study

that we ended up publishing this SC professor and I on narcissism and celebrity and that's what led to the book The Mirror Effect. And they all were consented and they all did. Everybody wanted to do it.

Where is the study? Gosh, it was widely read and it's still out there. I know because I get notified when it's, let me try to, it was in the journal of personality, if I remember. Let's see. Published it in the mirror effect. Yeah, it's in the mirror effect, but it's. But you could probably get used somewhere. Hold on a second. Let's see if this comes up.

I don't know. Maybe we have one. One more question. Yeah. I found it. It's a, if you just look up, Journal of research and personality. It's journal of research and personality. And if you look up, you know, my name and Dr. Young, Dr. Young is the other author. It comes right up. All right. Your other question.

In the 90s and 2000s, you know, Loveline had a huge audience. You were all over the place. What kind of effects on the culture do you think that you guys had? Because culture has changed a lot since then. I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's a really, really interesting and good question. The one thing I've been saying lately is we did not intend to bring us to where we are now. We did not intend this.

That's not what we were doing. So that's kind of interesting. What I was responding to that got me on radio in the first place was frankly AIDS. that there was a body of information about sexual health and reproduction. And we'd been through the sexual revolution. Earth control pills came along. Antibiotics came wrong for STDs. And no one was talking about it.

And it's a very, you know, I think people that understand that it's a very simple body of information. But in addition, I also knew what was happening to adolescents and young adults. And the culture at large did not get that at all. So to talk about these things to help to young adults and adolescents was bizarre at the time. And what motivated me to do it more than just even the fact that they should have that information was that if they didn't, they would never hear about HIV and AIDS. Which at the time when I started talking about it, we were calling it H.TLV3, which then became HIV. And we called it grids, gay-related intestinal disease syndrome, that became AIDS. and it morphed from there

and it's something that kind of took over and I didn't, you know, we were hearing about all kinds of other things, all the sexual abuse and all the physical abuse and all the addictions. So we started dealing with those things also. So we were just trying to really look at the biology of human relations,

you know, the medical reality and the consequences of some of these social changes that have gone on. And it was, you know, was all being motivated, by sex drugs and rock and roll and radio is a big part of that and i thought god there's got to be a way to use this thing to kind of turn things in a better direction a healthier direction and it just it kept going just took over much of my life yeah it's fascinating you guys would always kind of get down

on people for having kids out of wedlock and now we have uh it's kind of interesting that uh you know adam's whole bit of taking them in a slingshot and shooting them over you know to wherever would they have a better, you know, chance of life. But it was interesting. I'm listening right now. I'm on like year 97 listening to you guys. And obviously it was a different time and everything. But it's funny that there was so much thought on, hey, stop procreating out of wedlock.

And, and then, you know, they, they transition to that. All the environments dying don't have kids. And now we have a population crisis. Yeah, I know. It is, it is not at all we intended. And we were back in those days, we were fighting. is the other thing that has changed so much. We were fighting the right.

The right was coming after us all the time. How dare we talk about an HPV vaccine? How dare we talk about morning after contraceptives, which they had no idea how they worked and confused them with the abortifacian myth of cristo. Constantly. That was just a constant battle. And then all of a sudden, the left started coming after it.

It was the weirdest. We have not changed. Do you think we've changed? Are we seemingly very different? in terms of our points of view? No, the only thing I saw you change over the years is you got really comfortable with being made fun of and you were kind of uptight. You didn't like out of place to drop in those late 90s when Adam started first doing it

with One Nut engineer Mike and you really warmed up and embraced it. And it really, it showed your sense of humor. But aside from that little change, I think you and Adam are still the same people to this day. it's just the world has changed. Yeah, that's what we keep saying. I know I can see his, you know, it's hard to judge yourself sometimes, but I can see that he hasn't changed. You just become a little louder.

And in terms of my tolerating the humorous stuff, that was sort of more acquiescence. And it was, but behind that, this is a part of the piece that you didn't see on the radio, was Adam was hammering me about improv techniques. He kept saying, he kept telling me that, look, I need you to be able to do certain amount of improvisation. So whenever you say no, it stops what I do.

Remember how you'd get mad at me for saying no? So he was always hammering me. Yes and not only that but. Yes and not only that but. And in reality, that was a more efficacious way to have a conversation too. So I kind of acquiesced all that. It makes me smile ear to ear when I hear those things from like a 97 episode or whatever that you had trouble picking it up, but not one phone caller could ever ad lit with Adam.

It drove him nuts. I know. Well, just if you listen to the podcast that he and I do now, you'll hear some of the same conflicts that you heard in 1997. I still hit the mic. I still screw up his jokes before the punchline. He still yells at me about not, you know, something that I'm not being quick enough, responsive enough, whatever. He's louder because you're deaf.

No, no, no, he's more shrill about his opinion. That's my favorite quote. Ryan, I appreciate your enthusiasm, and thanks for the call, my friend. You're the best. Love you. Take care. All right, buddy. Did I hear you laughing in the background, Caleb?

Is that you enjoying a little walk-down memory? I was just thinking about what's it, David Allen Greer and all the pronunciations. It was the birth control medications. That's what he was pronouncing. And it was, I just remember that. It was a classic clip. It was hormones. Yeah.

It was like, pregnant alone was one that I remember him saying. And he was calling them, he was naming his children after that. He was named his children after them. Well, get over here. That's the one big, big segment that I remember because it was, that was just insane. I miss Dag. I don't understand why we can't heal those relationships. But it's part of the fourth turning, I guess, as we were discussed a couple times here today.

Let's put up the next guest. We have a show tomorrow at 2 p.m. Pacific time. Very polling. Rebecca Charles. Alex. That's a big one. Oh, the wise not guys. Didn't somebody cancel tomorrow, Caleb?

Am I getting that? Yeah, it was a studio. Mike from, the situation from Jersey Shore, had to reschedule. Unfortunately. That would have, he was in there. He would be a great guest. He'll be good. Wait.

We have. The following week, How many wise nuts are coming? They're coming in the studio. How many? Two wise nuts. Baja Unger Sargon. Jonathan Alpert.

Andrew Yang coming in here. Scott Pressler. Stephanie Ben Watson. A lot of stuff coming up. Keep an eye on us. We'll be doing it from New York next week. We're still moving around a bunch. But tomorrow, wise nuts in the studio.

We'll see then 2 o'clock. Wise Knit. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. Emily Bar. producer. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving,

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