Ask Dr. Drew - Google Leaks: Zach Vorhies Exposes AI Censorship - Ask Dr. Drew - Episode 42

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

After spending years as a senior engineer at Google, Zach Vorhies released 950 pages of Google's internal documents in his 2019 exposé of the search giant's bias and censorship. Drawing on his intimate knowledge of Google's search engine, Vorhies reveals the Big Tech plan for information dominance and its powerful influence over global events, elections, and the lives of millions of people. Read Zach Vorhies' book "Google Leaks: A Whistleblower's Expose of Big Tech Censorship" at  https://www.amazon.com/Google-Leaks-Whistleblowers-Expos%C3%A9-Censorship/dp/1510767363  Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation ( https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/FirstLadyOfLove). THE SHOW: For over 30 years, Dr. Drew Pinsky has taken calls from all corners of the globe, answering thousands of questions from teens and young adults. To millions, he is a beacon of truth, integrity, fairness, and common sense. Now, after decades of hosting Loveline and multiple hit TV shows – including Celebrity Rehab, Teen Mom OG, Lifechangers, and more – Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio in California. On Ask Dr. Drew, no question is too extreme or embarrassing because the Dr. has heard it all. Don’t hold in your deepest, darkest questions any longer. Ask Dr. Drew and get real answers today. This show is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All information exchanged during participation in this program, including interactions with DrDrew.com and any affiliated websites, are intended for educational and/or entertainment purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Our guest is an eight and a half year Google veteran turned whistleblower. He's written a new book called Google Leaks, a whistleblower's expose of big tech censorship. He was working YouTube and learned that Google was censoring fake news and investigated further and only to find that indeed Google had defined fake news to mean actual events that had happened, but also had created an artificial intelligence system to classify all available data to Google search. Our laws as it pertains to substances are draconian and bizarre. Psychopaths start this way.

He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals.

Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want help stopping. I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. I want to give a shout out to our good friends at Blue Mics.

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especially as a teenager. And not everyone has access to an expert in their house like I did. Of course, it wasn't like I was always that receptive to that advice. Right, no kidding. But now, we have written the book on consent. It is called It Doesn't Have to be Awkward, and it explores relationships, romantic relationships, and sex. It's a great guide for teens, parents, and educators to go beyond the talk and have honest and meaningful conversations.

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support by pre-ordering now totally and as we said before this is a book that both teenagers and their parents should read read the book have conversation. It doesn't have to be awkward. On sale September 21st. Zach Voorhees, welcome to the program. There it is. There's the book. Congratulations, my friend. Thank you very much. It's called Google Leaks. It's available now. Actually, it's available for pre-order. You can check out the first 20 pages at googleleaksbook.com. It's also available at Amazon. And in this book, I go through how I leaked the information from YouTube, and I show in depth through their slides how they manipulate news and sculpt the information landscape. I think they must be intervening right now on this stream because your voice is in real time and your fate your mouth is about 45 seconds later i don't know if that bothers

anybody else i can forge on that's because he's going through youtube or obs he's using the obs so if everybody else can be remain saying tested this it worked yesterday you might just need to restart your call zach okay how's it now is this there you go now what did you do different my goodness that's weird he's a tech specialist i don't know yeah so i wanted before going into this i want to say that dr drew i listened to you and adam carolla while i was flipping pizzas in a suburb of Portland called Westland. Nice.

And I listened to you guys pretty much every single night because I worked the night shift. So long time fan. It's been an absolute dream to be able to come onto your show and see you face to face. And I also want to let you know that you need a little bit more of Susan's paranoia, and hopefully after the show, you'll be convinced. Well, because I just feel like if I can't talk about the basics of medicine, I mean, I understand where the controversies lie. There's controversial material, and then there's just the basics. And if you can't discuss the basics, now we're into a situation where doctors have to lie or obfuscate. And that is a disgusting and very problematic landscape to be living in.

It is. It is. But I do want to show you a video. Hopefully this will work. That is something that many doctors don't know that Susan Wachowski actually said. So let's give this a try and see if it works. Tumeric, like those are all will cure you. Those are the examples of things that would be a violation of our policy. Anything that would go against World Health Organization recommendations would be a violation of our policy. And so remove is another really important part of our policy. So you're not just putting the truth next to the lie. You're taking the lie down. That's a pretty aggressive approach. approach well uh i mean we do we do remove um you know across um youtube in non-pandemic times um information that is a violation of our policy and we've had community guidelines since the very beginning of youtube and we've always um anything that is a violation of our policy we do remove it

yeah vitamin no listen zach vitamin d you don't even understand. To my listeners, this is not, to even discuss, even if I bring it in and say, I don't see any good evidence and let's discuss the evidence, boom, off immediately. If the words come out of your mouth, forget the context and forget the fact that it's clinicians discussing medical literature. No, that's a no. No go. So you're not even allowed to forget, forget what she was saying. They've gone one step further where the words themselves trigger you to a YouTube strike.

That's right. And they've got an AI system that reads the words that you say, transcribes it, and then data mines it with their machine learning classifiers. And that's usually why you've probably seen this. You upload a video and then, boom, it goes off even before anyone is able to see it. Yeah. No, there's no doubt in my mind what they're doing. I just wonder what we do with it and why the government doesn't get involved with it and what this is all going to mean given the power of this platform. I'm a Google fan. I'm a YouTube fan. I'm just deeply concerned about what happens when scientists and clinicians can't talk about the data.

And do we need it? Let me put it this way. I'm interested in how fake news even develops. Because I've been the object of cancellation multiple times because of fake news now. And each time the story evolves in such a way on Twitter or on YouTube or somewhere where it moves off the truth and into some sort of weird interpretation of the truth that is a million miles from the fact. And that becomes the cancellation point. Like I could give you a half dozen examples if you want. They've all been amazing. But how does that evolve? And what do these guys, what's that? Like ivermectin or HCQ? It wasn't even that. I mean, that word,

ivermectin came out of somebody's mouth on my platform. And that was the issue. And I was saying, I just don't see the data. I mean, maybe it's interesting. And I talked to Pierre Corey and he had some great data and it's interesting. And I've seen the recent Cochran analysis that suggests the data is very weak. But we have to discuss it. And the fact that it's not being discussed and the public isn't seeing how physicians reach their conclusions, I don't know. This is not their business. Now, maybe this isn't the place for it, but it seems to me that it is because people have lots of questions. And what I've gotten to repeatedly is that the thing that is causing the biggest problem right now is people feel like the information is not being presented

to them, and therefore they don't trust what they're getting. They go for their own interpretation and their own stuff, and that ends up down a rabbit hole. And this obfuscation of the data and the thoughts of clinicians is the source of things like vaccine hesitancy. Do you agree? I agree. And there's a lot of information that's coming out that a lot of these tests weren't done correctly, especially with the hydroxychloroquine. The placebo for one of the studies was vitamin C. And vitamin C has a long documented history of being an immune booster or immune modulator of some way. It's a powerful antioxidant. I don't want to rehash that stuff. I'm sorry, Zach, because I feel like Brett Weinstein, Joe Rogan, Pierre Corey, these guys have all done a great job of analyzing what's out there. And you can go see that all for yourself. I mean, Pierre Corey, it's there. And it's all going to be moot as soon as the antivirals, Molnupiravir, Molnupiravir, as soon as that comes out, given the data, think I'm seeing, and Andrew Oshkosh has really backed me up on this,

we can begin to start talking about early treatment with pharmaceuticals without having censorship involved. But I do worry about everything my peers are doing because they're starting to do stuff on the DL now, including, you know, boostering and all kinds of stuff they're doing, because that's what we've always done. We've always done off-label work based on our best decision for the patients. But we've ceded our responsibility to a bunch of bureaucrats who are not in a position to even have a, shouldn't even have a say in the game. And that's why this is disturbing to me. Right. Like Bill Gates is not a medical doctor yet. He's been, you know, allowed to the gate in order to tell us what we need to do with our own bodies. And it's, it's weird in the fact that doctors can't say exactly what's on their minds, but

then, you know, you've got this person that's not a medical professional coming in and telling us that, you know, we need to do this certain regimen, which he benefits through a monetary incentive in order to get. But that's that's another story. And and I wanted I do want to get to talking about my disclosure, which is how Google censors each and every view. Well, talk about your history, your history, company, and how you started as an enthusiast and then sort of woke up and went, uh-oh. Yeah, I remember in 2011, I was arguing with my Russian girlfriend who escaped from the Soviet Union. She was trying to convince me that Google was going to be the worst thing ever. And I remember telling her that, no, you got it wrong. This is everything that's right in the world. And, you know, eventually

she would be proven right. I worked at Google for eight and a half years as a software engineer. I started off with the Google Earth team. I took a three-year break to pursue an entrepreneurship. I came back to Google in 2016 and I worked in their YouTube office. For those of you that don't know, Google completely owns YouTube LLC, which is in San Bruno, just a little bit south of San Francisco, where I live. When I started the company, it was really great. I had a dream job again, where I was working on the YouTube app for game consoles. So if you play YouTube on Xbox, you play it on PlayStation 4 or Nintendo Switch, those were the consoles that I worked on. And so within a couple months of me going and working for YouTube, Donald Trump won the election.

And that's when everything at Google absolutely changed. One of the ways that it changed is that they had this. Uh-oh, what happened here? There we go. Google stepping in again. Is that at our end or um that was caleb sorry okay we lost it caleb are we back oh man that was good though well we'll pick it up i wonder if i should maybe he was he was in the middle the vmx screen disappeared He was trying to find it and it clicked over the other screen and then it knocked Zach out.

Okay. He's still there. I still see him in real time. I know. I can see him. Also, that other platform. Wait. Let's see if we can hear Zach.

Zach, can you talk? No. Yeah. I lost Zach's sound. Hang on. We can't see any sound. No. Also, on the other platform, the new platform,

I see no chat. No, they're there. I can see it. I can't see it. I know. I need to see it and I can't. I'd like to. I can give you my computer because I'm going to leave in a few minutes. Okay, we've got to get the sound back from back. We lost it.

I could take a call while they work on that if you want. Alright, let's do a... yeah oh man sorry zach all right uh i we have to find the v-mix mike i want to give you a chance to uh come on the line here i can hear him again wait wait oh that's the re mike hey dr drew how are you good sir what's up well i just want to say first off i enjoy this topic a lot i appreciate you doing this i'm in the healthcare it space have been for 19 years and have been very cautious since i've noticed google signing deals with huge health systems to you know aggregate clinical patient data. So I don't know if that's on your docket of things to talk about.

It is. If I can get Zach up, what is it you suspect is going on? They're just using their business. Their business is data and packaging data and selling it, right? They're just doing that again. Isn't that essentially what's happening? They used to have an initiative that was focused on the patient uh you know uh facing side of health care now they've realized that the big business is more on the physician side of health care and they realized that in order for any of these new

software companies that are building AI-based algorithmic applications that help with clinical decision-making to work, they rely on data. They rely on data from different demographics, economic demographics, socioeconomic demographics, and so on. And from a patient's perspective, it's concerning because at what point does it violate privacy bounds? And my question is, what is the end game? It feels like the end game is to put physician extenders. Here's what they're going to do. I know it. This is what they always do. They're going to put physician extenders, dozens of them, under a single physician. The AI and the data is going to guide the decision-making of the physician extender, meaning the PAs and the nurse practitioners.

All the liability is going to go upstream to the physician. It's going to be impossible to monitor everything the extenders are doing. And on it will come. I mean mean that's that's where do you see that coming do you see mike do you see what i'm talking about i mean it is an interesting perspective i think these are all pieces in the movement towards value-based reimbursement in health care personally um where they're trying to change the entire health care system from reimbursement based on time and documentation,

you know, into a system where doctors get reimbursed based on the value of their care. They need to be able to prove, for example, I have diabetic patients that are improving over time because of my care. Right. And those doctors will get paid more. Right. That requires data. That is going to mean physicians are going to run from complex, really sick patients. So there we go.

That's a good job. But maybe they can correct for that. Maybe there can be sort of weighting of the seriousness of the patients underlying. But believe me, that's all going to get gained by the insurance company. I mean, you see what happens, right? You're dealing with medical information. And that's exactly where the big business is. I know personally firsthand, you know, of the five biggest insurers I know, every single one of them,

I know the people at those companies that are responsible for buying the data. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, just because patients' names aren't in there, everything else is in there, like their income level, their, you know what i mean like that's because patients names aren't in there everything else is in there like their income level their you know their location what underlying health issues they have and obviously they make risk uh decisions based on that because at the end of the day they're a business yeah and they don't make money on the the it. The only unit in healthcare that serves the patient and whose only sole purpose is to protect the patient is the primary caretaker and the patient, or the immediate caretaker. And that's it. Everything else that goes on top of that is an encumbrance, and it's

a layer of bureaucratic distancing. So the patient themselves, it just becomes, like you say, data and a number. I've been through this for so long with insurance companies. It's just beyond. It's hard to hear, though, now it's going onto a larger platform, which is just the scale of Google. And it just moves away from the quality. The quality is the two. Nothing's more efficient than the caretaker and the patient. That's your most efficient unit. And everything you put into that or on top of that makes it less effective, less efficient. So it's going to be something.

Well, what are your predictions? Well, are you going to be at, I'm just curious, at the HIMSS conference? It's like the largest health care conference in two weeks in Las Vegas. I am not planning to be there. It all makes me anxious and upset at this point. But what are you planning to get out of that? Well, I mean, I'm there every year, and I love seeing what's on the cusp of healthcare as a whole, but also by the big players in the industry. I think Google has woken up quite recently, like in the last 18 months, and realized that

they are the kings of everything, you know, in terms of understanding their, you know, researchers, the web, and they realized that they're snoozing on healthcare. And that's where they made some big hires of some big name doctors interesting in their healthcare uh new health well i'm sure you know who they are i could see i could see one good thing coming out of it which is that we could we could put the uh current uh double blind placebo control phase three kinds of trials on its ear a little bit and do more real-time testing with that kind of data. So to me, there's like one really serious benefit out of this. I've spoken to various people at HHS, and they all say the same thing, that what bogs the FDA

down is the phase three trials because they're so expensive and time-consuming, and the attorneys. In other words, the attorneys, as you know, have to go through literally truckloads of material on liability issues, and no one moves forward without that finished, which is why we're sitting here with a non-FDA-approved mRNA platform virus. Well, Mike, thank you for those thoughts. I will look into the conference, at least keep an eye on it as it's underway, okay? My pleasure. Thank you, Dr. Drew. All right, you bet into the conference, at least keep an eye on it as it's underway, okay? My pleasure. Thank you, Dr. Drew.

All right, you bet. All right, we're going to do a Zach sound check. Zach test? I don't hear him. Okay, he's on Clubhouse, so call him up on the Clubhouse. We'll just put his face up there and make a sound from... He's on the bottom, so... There, it's just Zach with his hand up.

All right. Okay. You should be on Clubhouse, Zach. I should be able to hear you. See, Google has put you in a box over there is what's happening here. This is, this is the reach. There you are. There we are. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that. So anyway, you were talking about your enthusiasm, your Russian girlfriend, and how this was going to be the future. And all of a sudden you realized something more sinister was afoot. Yeah. In 2016, when Donald Trump won the election, I remember waking up and thinking to myself, well, this is the first time the right has won in recent memory. And I thought that that was just going to be it. But when I got to Google, it turns out that that was not it. That the employees were very, very distraught.

And a week later, we had this very famous all hands on meeting. And in this meeting, the C-level executives were just irate over populism, what Trump had done. They were clearly wanting the questions that was asked by the audience, which asked Sundar Pichai what Google had done best during the 2016 election. To which Sundar replied that it was the use of machine learning in order to censor the fake news. Now, most people, I think, just sort of skipped over this. But for me, I was like, wait a minute, we're censoring the fake news? Isn't our mission statement to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful? How exactly can we do that if we're censoring things? And so I started to go through the systems at work and look at what the fake news team was doing. I'm going to bring it up on screen here. Maybe you can see it. But there's a series of slides that are available at Zach Voorhees.com, which I've released all this information. And it's basically Google's efforts to address

fake news. And what they say is that they want to create a single source of truth on the internet. And what's interesting is that with this example that they have here, there are really five examples and three of them have to do with the election, Hillary Clinton. And I started thinking to myself, I'm like, are they really trying to censor the fake news? Are they trying to put their thumb on the scale of the election? And so I started researching more, and I started saying, well, if there is a method of classifying something as fake news or not fake news, then there's got to be something that's going to censor it.

So I started searching and at first I was trying to find a project named Project Dragonfly, which had been in the news. But to my surprise, nothing like this existed at all. And so I started searching other places. And when I found the censorship engine, I realized just by the name that I was right over the target. And the name that Google used for its real censorship engine was called, get ready for this, machine learning fairness. So machine learning fairness is a system they've designed that will re-bias all of the available data on the internet.

And the reason is simple. We, as individuals, have certain inherent biases. We're all racists. As a result of that, we are going to generate racist data. When you feed that racist data, the thinking goes, you create racist AI. And so in order to create a more fair and equitable world, Google decided they were going to start applying machine learning fairness to all of the information that we receive, whether it be through Google Search, YouTube, Google News. And as I continue to dig further and further into this, I realized that this was a system

that was in very advanced development, and it was about to be rolled out onto every single service that people used on Google. And back then, in 2016 and 17, Google had a de facto monopoly on the internet. And I went, people have no idea that this is coming and that it's already being implemented. And so for my own sanity, because what I was seeing was so radically different

than what the media was presenting and what Google was saying in Congress, I decided that I was going to start downloading these documents, sort of like an Edward Snowden, to my work laptop. So I started, as I started seeing all these documents, I started hitting save to PDF, boom, and just collecting them in a folder. And as I went through, I realized that, um, that there's blacklists that, um, they're blacklisting health terms that they're blacklisting political terms that they even blacklisted the phrase eighth amendment to the constitution of Ireland. And, um, and I thought to myself, well, why would they be doing that? And I'm just going to show you a little bit here. This blacklist, a full 40 pages of this blacklist existed. It was injected on October 2nd, 2017. And the reason why it was injected was because of the Las Vegas massacre that happened the day before. So on the night of that

massacre, YouTube had all hands and they talked about how bad the fake news was, that all these conspiracy theories are appearing on the internet. So they need to protect their users from all this, all these fake news stories that were coming out. And they injected two blacklists. The one on screen is one of them right now. Out of the 40 pages, 20 of the pages have to do with Stephen Paddock and trying to censor anything about him being anti-Trump, thereby allowing positive associations between Trump and Paddock rise to the surface. But this isn't all that we find, right?

We find blacklisted terms like cancer cure on screen now, and also cure cancer, just in case you figured out a way past the blacklist. And so I'm sitting here thinking to myself, why are they doing this? Like, why are they putting their thumb on the scale, especially given that they said that they weren't going to be evil and they were going to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible. And so I started to, you know, dig in further and came across this really, well, I can't even show this video because of the sound, but it's Eric Schmidt talking about how Google has more bugs than anyone else. And that Google should only return one search result when you do a search. Let's try the sound again.

I think Caleb fixed it. Let's see if we can do it. Well, don't hang up your phone. Let's try the sound again. I think Caleb fixed it. Let's see if we can do it. Well, don't hang up your phone. Let's just see if you play the video. Let's see. If you guys can hear it now. Yeah, we can. We should give it to you in your life.

Turn off your clubhouse. And we should never be wrong. Well, there it was. We heard it anyway. Okay, so you can play it again. And one of my questions leading to is help us understand where is the future of search going? When you use Google, do you get more than one answer? Of course you do.

Yeah, of course. Well, that's a bug. Yeah. We have more bugs per second in the world. Because we should be able to give you the right answer just once. We should know what you meant. You should look for information. We should give it exactly right, and we should give it to you in your language,

and we should never be wrong. They should never be wrong is what they said. But I like that. I like the fact that they would understand what I'm asking of the search engine. There's nothing wrong with that as a principle. I have the really great question. It's not in principle something bad. What you're saying is because of the way they have taken a turn with AI, it becomes problematic. Right.

You know, there's a difference between organic search results and highly refined search results. And just like food, organic search results are natural. They come from the data itself. But what Google wanted to do is that they wanted to replace the organic search results with their manufactured, highly refined, highly processed search results that were re-biased for our own good. Are other companies doing this? Twitter doing this? Are other places following similar patterns or similar mechanisms and philosophy? Yes. Machine learning fairness is now starting to spread to other companies as well. I saw Microsoft had some information about how they were adopting it. This doesn't actually come from Google. Machine learning fairness was a project that came out of Stanford,

and I saw it as early as 2014. And they talked about the systematic bias of data and how to use machine learning fairness in order to re-bias this. And so Google simply ingested this from the academic institutions and brought it into its own company. And my expectation is that Twitter and Microsoft are doing something very similar to what Google is doing. I can see why this would be so appealing though, right? I mean, on its surface, it sounds like, oh, this is going to be good.

This will get cognitive bias and racial bias and all that stuff out of our thinking. Literally, the glitch in our brains can be substituted with an AI system. So I get it on its surface, but I guess would it be accurate to say it's like anything else in computing? You have to have the inputs there, and the human inputs as to what the AI should be targeting is really the problem. Right. They should have this as a topic of public conversation.

We should know what their corporate policies are and how they're going to implement these corporate policies through their machine learning algorithms so that we can have a pushback in case we disagree. Because this company had monopoly on all search. And so anything regarding election interference, they could just get away with it. And, you know, these are unelected bureaucrats that are deciding what is and is not going to be part of the culture. So let me zero in on that for a second because I was going to ask, so what? It's a private company. They can do what they want, that sort of reasoning.

But you're saying that their impact on culture is so profound. You're not even talking about politics or thinking or medicine or anything else. Just the cultural impact is so profound. Would you say the government has a measurable interest in what they are doing? Oh, absolutely. I think that especially if there is a question about whether a lot of their corporate decisions are being influenced by other countries across the world, then the United States military should be asking questions about who is giving undue influence on Google. I believe, and I've got a lot of evidence to suggest this is the case,

that Google is now operating at the behest of the CCP. That's the Chinese Communist Party. And this is because of a series of pieces of evidence that came out that Project Veritas exposed. One of them was a manifesto from, not a manifesto, an HR document from Facebook that said that they needed to increase diversity and that that diversity should be increased by hiring South Koreans and the Chinese. And it was kind of a bombshell because if this was truly about diversity, then you would want to prioritize all people and the equitable makeup of the United States, not prioritize Chinese and South Koreans

in order to increase the diversity ranks as the major contributing factor to the, quote, diversity ranks. But let me, again, I'm looking for, you know, sort of holes in your arguments. I'm going to keep kind of pushing back. To be fair, YouTube is a global enterprise and maybe the balance of

diversity they were looking for was on the global scale and they were underrepresented in chinese and i imagine specifically chinese nationals they i think they would be underrepresented and somehow they wanted to bring that back into balance no they were dominating uh when i arrived it was about 25 chinese um when i left the company in 2019 americans of chinese descent or chinese nationals i don't know if most of them didn't speak that well of the english language it's kind of kind of like an esl sort of situation. English as a second language. So my understanding is that a lot of them are coming over by the H-1B visa system.

I'd heard that. When I left, yeah. And right now we have a bunch of Chinese nationals that speak English as a second language pouring into these tech companies. And this is a big problem, especially if these foreign nationals have allegiance to a rival totality system that is against the United States and wants to see the United States be stabilized. That's, I think, a reasonable thing for them to keep an eye on. Let me go back to the machine learning fairness why in the world would they choose fairness as their end goal in the sense that you lead you need look no further than kohlberg stages of moral development

which you can assail as not accurate but the point of the Kohlberg stages is that we evolve off of fairness after about first grade. Fairness is something that young children are concerned with. That's not fair. Adults concern themselves with what's right, with truth, with what has best possible outcome given the options. It really is more about truth and good. And why didn't they choose that? And where did fairness of all the things for them to aim for, why a childish preoccupation like fairness? And another question is why did so many employees just go along with it when they start to roll it out? I think that fairness dovetails very nicely into this narrative that we hear over and over again on the mainstream media. They're pushing fairness equals equity instead of fairness equals equality.

And I think that what you're talking about, Dr. Druin, correct me if I'm wrong, you're talking about equality of opportunity. And what they're talking about is equality of outcome. Right. I understand the difference. And I know there's debate about that. But even the people that are advocating for equality of outcome usually demur from it. They back off it. There's a great quote of Abraham Lincoln's on the left sort of pedestal, pedicle really, of the First World War Memorial in Pittsburgh. And it's essentially, he says in his own incredible poetry, that the purpose of this country was to create a level playing

field for all Americans to have an equal opportunity to play in the game of life, essentially. And I think we, I don't know anybody that doesn't want that. I don't know anybody that doesn't want to give everybody the best possible life, the best possible outcome. I just don't know anybody. Maybe they're out there. And so to me, it's about how do you operationalize that? But we're getting off topic. Let's go back to the machine learning fairness and all this stuff. Tell me the story about how you were outed as you began to tell the story. um so oh man so i had been collecting information about google for some time um and i was uh at a certain point i realized that google had crossed so many red lines with me personally when i was like google's not going to go past this red line oh they crossed it well they're not going to go

past this line oh they crossed it and the final crossing for me was when i saw that they had removed the word kafefe from their arabic translation dictionary in order to make a fool of the president and that's when i started to say to myself is this like a conspiracy for insurrection. And at that point, I thought that Trump would win his reelection. And I didn't want a big tech company to be distorting the information like this, not just for the people, but actually going against a duly elected president of the United States in order to make a fool. So what happened um about may 31st 2017 trump made this tweet despite the negative constant press cafefe and if you type that into the translate.google.com that would translate into we will stand up the new york times made a hit piece saying that kefefe was not a correct word. And so the

very next day, Google made a document citing the New York Times as justification to delete this word from their translation dictionary. Once I saw that and saw that it was being used as the justification to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove the president, I was like, well, you know, this company is out of control. So that they have a chance to really change the system through either diversifying their technology stack using a different search engine or by the DOJ coming down and breaking this company up. I mean, we just got to know. We just have to know that this is going on. So I took my documents and I went out and started asking people who I felt would not throw me under the bus. Because, I mean, let's be honest.

If I gave this to the New York Times, they would just throw me under the bus rather than try to disclose this information. And one thing led to another. And I got in touch with one of the board of directors with Breitbart and Project Veritas. And he said, his name was Matt Tyerman. And he said, this story is too big for Breitbart. It needs to be done with an organization that can actually set up a sting operation and catch them saying the words that we all know that they're thinking. And so he gave that to Project Veritas. Project Veritas sent one of their operatives to my place in San Francisco. And then over the course of a few months, we exfiltrated the data to them. And then Project Veritas had this information.

And then they sat on it for like a year and a half. They sat on this information. And it was about until 2019 where I was just resigning myself to believe that nothing would ever come of this disclosure that I handed off to Project Veritas. I was like, well, maybe forizations happening in April of 2019, May of 2019, June of 2019. It was just like back-to-back waves of purges that were going through. And so I decided that whether regardless of Project Veritas moving on this story or not, I could no longer, with my own conscious, be part of this system. And so I sat down and as I started thinking about my resignation letter, I actually ended up getting a call from Joe Halderman, who was the executive producer of Project Veritas at the time, saying, hey, Zach, we've got this transcript here and we'd like you to take a look at it. And so I took a look at the transcript. live right now speaking to an undercover agent of Project Veritas, admitting that only something the size of Google could stop the next Trump situation. And she was talking about how Elizabeth Warren was trying to break up Google, but that was

a bad idea. I think they've been sort of transparent that that was what they were up to, right? I mean, if you believe that a maniac psychopath knew Hitler had taken over the country, you would think it was your obligation to do the things that they were doing, wouldn't you? Yes. And let's remind ourselves,

let's remind ourselves that is exactly the thinking that the National Socialist Workers Party in Germany used about the communists. It was precisely the thinking. Like, we have to do anything to prevent the communists from coming in, including all the things they did. So that's what scares me. Whether you agree with the fact that they were justified in being frightened or not is sort of not the issue to me. It's just study your history. History has always been replete with excesses in the name of seeming to do good. You thought you were doing good and you end up being, just consult your history about the National Soviet, National Socialist German Workers Party in 1932. It's all you need to look

at and what they were thinking. Now, both sides, what's really crazy making about all this, both sides in the extremes are guilty of the same thinking these days, it seems like. So to me, the issue is not so much one side is right, one side is wrong. It's the excesses and the hysteria that people have gotten into that's causing them to really not think through what they're doing and resulting in the kinds of things you're describing here. What happened to you as a result of all this? So I came out anonymously at first because I wanted to just deliver this information without revealing myself. I had this idea that I could just do this small disclosure and then secretly move on and go work at a different company, you know, with my expectations of, you know,

kind of shattered, but, uh, but you felt you had done something good. Like you'd released some information, done your job and time to go work somewhere else. Oh yeah. It was project Veritas is largest story by far. And so, um, I was ready to sort of like put that all behind me and walk away, but Google had other opinions about exactly what they wanted to do. Google knew that I was the leaker. And so what they decided to do was send a very high-priced attorney firm after me and try to get the rest of the data that I had, because they had probably seen the logs on the server, all the different sites that I had seen. So they knew what I had. And so they started threatening me with letters, um, trying to get access to all of my data. And so, um, I decided

that, uh, well, if I decided that if I gave them the laptop that I'd taken from the company, right? Like when I left, I had exfiltrated all this data. And I knew that if I gave the laptop back, that they would use that to construct not only a civil suit, as they had done on Kevin Cernacki, but also a criminal suit, which they had done on Kevin Cernacki. What would the previous whistleblower. What would the crime have been? Espionage. They came up with a theory with Kevin that he was not actually trying to do the right thing. He was actually trying to get the data for one of Google's competitors.

Totally frivolous. But they have the money to fund the lawyers to push, you know, fiction in a court of law. And he ended up spending a hundred thousand dollars in order to defend against it. So I was like, well, this is the same thing that's coming for me. So rather than try to fight this in a court of law, let me fight this in the court of public opinion. So I realized that, you know, okay, well, I'm going to, I'm going to release this information. Um, and so I called up James O'Keefe and we scheduled something, uh, where I would come on August 5th, August 15th, August 14th, 2019.

And I said to him, James, in the event of my untimely death, you can go ahead and release all the information to the public. I then went to Twitter and echoed the same sentiment. And I said, in the event of my untimely death, all public documents will become public. And so within 30 minutes, YouTube had sent police officers to an address. Unfortunately for them, they had the wrong address because I had given it to them on my interview. So they arrived at my friend's house who gave me a heads up. And so when the police were at my house about 15 minutes later, I just didn't answer the door.

And rather than let me go, the police decided that they were going to call in a bomb threat. And the excuse that they used for the bomb threat was a canister of denatured alcohol that one of my roommates used to do fire dancing at the different performances around san francisco and she just carelessly left it by the front gate and so when the police got inside of the gate because my neighbor let them in uh they saw this canister they called in a bomb threat and then they called in some bomb robots. And once that happened, they got to start shutting down the street, evacuating people. The FBI was called in. The SWAT team was called in. And I think I counted like four or five different law enforcement agencies that had arrived on the scene. And in fact, I've got a video of it if you'd like to see

of my police encounter. By the way, our clubhouse cut off spontaneously. This is a bomb robot. Uh-oh. Well, here we go. Yeah. So this is a bomb robot

that has been sent to my house because they think that something looks suspicious. how do you even turn yourself in in a situation like that is that you are very very persistent about me is that what you with your hands okay okay uh-huh and the man bun i i don't i you know this just seems like it'd be a scary situation because you don't want to walk out in the middle of it right and then and then they take me in and um you know they ask me a bunch of questions like do i want to harm myself or you know do i have any fantasies of like shooting up Google? And, um, and I was

like, no, like I answered honestly. And then they were like, well, why, you know, would Google call this in? And I said, probably because I just turned over 950 pages to the DOJ and the cops like, well, do you have any proof for that? Now, luckily, I had taken a picture of the DOJ letter on my phone. So I showed the cop. He saw that. And then everything just de-escalated immediately. And we jumped around. The police and as am I are used to people claiming all kinds of interesting things like that about Google or the CIA or the,

you know, or the FBI and it always being a psychotic state. It's, it's always really almost amusing to me when somebody comes, shows up with what sounds like a psychotic thought process and turns out to be, no, no, this is just what happened. This is just my reality. Yeah. I knew I was working with a guy that became suicidal i was working with a guy that became suicidal because he was working with the fbi to uncover some government corruption and then everyone turned on him and he got so upset he wanted to kill himself and so when the you know they got him into the hospital and the police brings him he's like the fbi is following me i wear

a wire for the fbi for the last two years and they're like yeah yeah sure let's get some medicine in this guy so so anyway um so you get taken in you get the de-escalates and then what happens um so i go to washington dc i check in in a hotel under someone else's name, and then I get on a flight to New York. Oh, yeah. While in D.C., I turn in all the documents for a second time to the DOJ because it turns out that when I sent everything to them, I didn't label it for a particular person. So I have to go through some sort of long processing phase, and I'm like, no, screw that. We print out all 950 pages. Again, we deliver it to an actual person. And then they interview me about why I, you know,

disclosing all this information. And then I'm on a flight to New York to project Veritas to disclose the story to the American public. And we took all 950 pages. We posted up on their website. We did the disclosure. They had their second largest story of the year, which was in August of 2019, which was the full 950 pages of how censorship works.

And they got like a little buzz every single time. Someone downloaded the entire Google Leaks dossier. And when that thing dropped, it was just nonstop continuous. And the traces that we got were from people coming in from all over the world, downloading exactly how Google does their censorship, what machine learning fairness was, what all these different blacklists meant, and exactly which news organizations were getting blocked from their different news services. Amazing. But while you were sort of going through some of your technical challenges here at the beginning of this program, we had a caller who works in healthcare information and he was expressing some concerns about Google getting involved in healthcare data. Have you thought about that at all? Yeah, you know, it's like we

grew up on this, you know, HIPAA regulation, which was, you know, the patient data is sacrosanct. But now it appears that it's not sacrosanct, that it's actually going to be completely vacuumed up by Google, who's then going to run all their AI stuff on it. Maybe they're anonymized, maybe they're not. Because when I read through a lot of the HIPAA fine print, what I see is a lot of these escape hatches so that they can actually sell it to a company like Google later on down the line under certain... I can't remember what the words it was that they used. But when I saw the fine print of that HIPAA, I realized that, yeah, they could sell that data to Google. Yes, they could use it in order to run their AI algorithms. And I think it's a travesty since there could have been a lot of good that could have come from all that patient data

being aggregated and being sifted through. A lot of these patients out there that were injured by a certain drug or whatever, a big barrier is that they don't have access to the data. And for HIPAA to now be sort of torn down so that Google can vacuum up a sizable fraction of the entire United States population and put it God knows where in God knows what country seems to be like a violation of the contract that we each subscribe to with this HIPAA law. What do you think? Oh, I've been concerned about all of this. It happens on both ends, right? It happens from the standpoint of censoring people's conversation.

It happens from the standpoint of accessing information that they shouldn't really have access to. You need look no further than demands for how, you know, whether or not we've been vaccinated. Now, I understand that that's all emergency, you know, sort of measures, but we don't pull back from stuff very easily. We've lost your picture because your face was your mouth was behind your voice, but I still have your voice, I believe. Let me just mention something. It's sort of funny that showed up on my restream here, which is, Zach, you know you've got a good story when a fire dancing roommate is an afterthought. That's pretty good. You still there? Yeah, I am. So I guess there's more to be told about the fire dancer that you live with, but we'll leave that for another day. Do you think that they will pull back from some of this? Will they wake up to some of the excesses as we perhaps dial down some of the

hysteria associated with Donald Trump and COVID? Both have been extreme histrionic reactions. Do you think it's possible they'll pull back? Look, Drew, for the last three years, I've been thinking that Google would have a red line that they would not go over. But it's clear at this point that every single expectation of restraint that I thought that Google would do, they've bypassed it. And at this point, where can our imagination take us on how bad it can get? They're clearly censoring politicians. They're clearly censoring doctors that are trying to speak about their findings and their experience. And the question is, how far are they going to go? And I think that they're going to go all the way.

I think they're going to push it as far as they can. I see this, and this is my opinion, but I think that we are headed towards a cultural slash communist revolution. working in lockstep with each other in order to cause so much polarization and destabilization that the United States may fall. And I believe this so strongly that I risked everything in order to tell the American public that Google was rigging their search results, their news results, their YouTube in order to censor you. Because honestly, people like you, Drew, are dangerous. You're not part of the sexual authorities. They don't control exactly what you say. And I think that that's actually something that's very dangerous to them. I don't know if you talk to the individual players, they would

understand what you're talking about. They would see that as excessive and that they're just trying to protect people. And as the tape you played there, they're just trying to get the searches right and get people the information they need and not let anybody get harmed by the information they're putting out there. How does then that get rolled into a socialist revolution? um so this a lot of this comes from uh kgb defector yuri bezman off this is an old tape this is this is an old tape right from like 20 years ago 30 or 40 years ago right yeah yeah so basically right now yeah go ahead well i do recommend people look at that tape. It is a chilling tape where he talks about, and the Chinese have similar sorts of strategies out there. But I don't know. We've been through a lot of stressors before in this country.

And then the flexibility, the decentralization, the fact that we're a union of states, thank God we're not too federalistic yet i i just have faith that we can pull through this i understand your anxiety and i get it and you've been the object of the excesses specifically in a grotesquely authoritarian manner in fact but god i bet you ran afoul of business more than anything and people react very violently to that. What do you say? Yeah. I mean, there is, look, look, look what just happened with the COVID thing. Think how many businesses were destroyed and how we're all moving towards Amazon for, you know, all of our purchases, because why risk it going out to a city store when you can just point and click and then everything comes directly to your storefront or your house?

I'm going to bring up on Clubhouse Mike, who is the medical data guy, and see if he has any questions for you. He's back on with his hand raised, and I think he wants to come up and ask you a question. Maybe that was just a leftover thing. But let me ask you this. You've been the object of fake news, right? Fake news has been created about you. Am I accurate? Is that true?

Yeah, I've been called a crisis actor and some other things. And anti-vax and QAnon. Where does the QAnon thing come from? I'm giggling, but if it's true, I apologize. QAnon was like a psyop, and we're not really sure where it came from. And they were dropping legitimate intel at some point. Vice magazine tried to tie me closer to it than is really conceivable.

But a lot of the people that followed that also followed me. And they were really ticked at Google because of what Google was doing with the censorship purchase. doing with the censorship purges. And Vice Magazine wrote a story about me, and they actually had to hire a PhD at Stanford specializing in disinformation in order to try to debunk what I was saying. And the reason why I became a focus point of Vice Magazine was because I helped Judy Mikevitz get big on Twitter. And I got her from zero to like 100,000 subscribers in a week. She came out with her book at the same time called Plague of Corruption, which exposed her role in chronic fatigue syndrome and the details of that you can read in the book.

And she pointed out that Dr. Fauci was involved in a lot of questionable activity. And when she came out with the movie Plandemic, everyone that was associated with her got hit by these mainstream media articles. And Vice, uh, the New York times and business insider all hit me at the same time because of my involvement with, uh, bringing this NIH whistleblower to the forefront of American culture. And I don't want to take up too much of the credit because it was mostly filmmaker Mickey Willis. I was just along for the ride and just in the right place at the right time. And right. Okay.

So you have been, I find it more interesting how fake news is created. So somebody says something, makes an allegation, and then that gets reported by the media as fact. Did you witness that happening to your story? Yes. You know, the New York Times and these other articles were using circular reporting. And you saw this a lot with the whole Trump impeachment thing and the Russian collusion, Russia hacked the election. It was this like circular reasoning. And we're starting to see this circular reasoning spread throughout the Internet.

The founder of Wikipedia, Larry Sanders, I believe, was complaining and trying to expose the fact that Wikipedia had moved from a primary source publication to a secondary source education. So they were using these MSM outlets that were reporting and interpreting what the facts were rather than reporting what the actual facts were and the sources for that. Right. And this is something that we've seen now sort of infect the rest of the news ecosystem is this circular reporting. This person said that person, that person said that person.

And then it turns out that it's a big, giant ring of an echo chamber. Right. I've been the subject of it several times, and it's really wild to watch it go from what you said or did to what they say you said you did. And it's usually quite off. I'm often, well, first of all, it never understands, they never read, never read what there's originally being said. They don't read it. They seem people have lost the ability to read. And then they have some sort of emotional reaction and convert it into an expression of what they're emotionally experiencing that is not at all related to the original situation i mean i think like the q thing is a perfect example that have you experienced this like what kind of story

oh i've had all kinds of stuff exactly i'm sorry uh caleb is that you coming in no that was that was me oh mike you're there okay mike go ahead give us your question i was just gonna say that you guys are spot on. And it's so unfortunate that it's even come to a point that even if you do question it and hint that you're questioning it, all of a sudden you're blackballed. Yeah. And society just looks at you as an outcast or, you know, a racist or things that you know that you, it's of course, because you're a good person, but you live in a free democratic society where you're supposed to be able to ask questions and, and, and, and question, you know, and everything. I know I, I, I've become,

this stream has become a place where I want to hear people that have been silenced because they just want to hear, I just want to hear, I don't agree with everything Zach's saying. I don't agree with everything some of the, you know, PR Corey said, but I want to hear him. I want to hear. I don't agree with everything Zach's saying. I don't agree with everything some of the PR Corey said, but I want to hear him. I want to because I'm trying to arrive at the truth. And if I don't have lots of dialectic, I can never get there. And I have to hear other people's thoughts. That's how we work as human beings. That's why we have such such power in our collective in terms of when we're collectively working on projects, things like that. So, Mike, do you have any questions for Zach as it pertains to medical data? Yeah, I do. So, Zach, first off, my hat's off to you. Thank you so much for being a brave, outspoken person to speak out to the rest of us. I'm curious as a futurist who probably can see a good 10, 20 years down the pipe, which I'm sure you can.

Did you see a lot of this coming with Google's rise to power in their first five to 10 years of operation? No, they were completely libertarian, you know? And as a classical liberal, I agreed with everything that they were doing in the world. This is the conundrum of the world we find ourselves in that that people who are liberal are all of a sudden um completely outcast that you are you are you are somehow uh a part of you go from liberal to q anon

and that then brings me to my next question is like, what would you tell a startup software shop that needs cloud space? Would you advise them not to go with AWS because they'll be shut off as soon as, you know, they show the slightest bit of stepping out of line? And that's the Amazon system, right? Yes. So is Amazon manifesting the same stuff? Zach? They kicked off Parler. Right.

They're kicking off other stuff. I don't know. I think maybe I'm an optimist and a naive person, but I just think you keep slugging away and you keep bringing it up. You keep talking about it. You keep having a record of just trying to get at it, get at the truth, trying to do what is actually right and not just fair. And by the way, as it pertains to that, I found the Lincoln quote. I was searching around for it, and let me please read it to you. The war for the Union is the people's conflict to make certain whether thou shalt be preserved in this world, that form and substance of government,

the object of which is to remove the obstacles from the pathway of all, to open the avenues of honorable employment for all, and to give all an unfettered start and a fair chance in the race of life. It's one of my favorite Lincoln quotes. It's on the left side of the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial in Pittsburgh. It's just poetic. And it really illustrates what they should be going for, I would hope, at Google. If they had that on the wall, I would feel a lot better. Because it at least would be a guiding principle upon which that, other than some vague concept called fairness. Can I add one last thing?

Go ahead. I want to just say, people sometimes fail to realize our country as a nation, and I'm very patriotic and I believe in our country really rebounding from this, but our country is not more than a couple hundred years old.

I know. When you think about it, and our internet, I mean, two decades maybe, right? a couple hundred years old i know you know when you think about it and our internet i mean two decades maybe right you know think about the next hundred years of where this plays out at this yeah i i know i think that's what's giving people pause and anxiety at the same time thanks mike i'm gonna put you back in the audience and and i i i don't I want to add... Go ahead. I'm taking a picture of the quote. I want to add that what we're living through right now is essentially the digital version of the Gutenberg printing press. Yes, it is. through the society are the exact same types of disruption that we're going to see

with this social media systems with the technology and the ai in fact this is unprecedented yes and so we kind of have to at some point i must tell you what we gotta we gotta what frightens me zach is if you um if you look at what happened as a result of the Gutenberg Bible, it wasn't very pretty. And to be fair, I mean, that was, you know, wars of religion based on the ability to read or not read the Bible and have an authoritarian interpretation versus each individual's interpretation, Catholic, Protestant sort of feelings that resulted in 200 years of war? Was that a fair assessment? Now, also to be fair, things move a lot faster now. So presumably whatever we're going to get is going to be much more compressed than the

distribution of the printing press across two centuries. But it certainly makes you pause. It makes you think about the seriousness of the situation we're in here, doesn't it? It does. And I think that we might be experiencing another cycle of war that's going to come. There's a lot of fantastic technology out there now that I think will be possibly introduced in the next war that I believe is coming.

I think it's going to be centered around Asia and Taiwan. And if you look at everything that's happening. I interrupt you a lot. I apologize for that. But there's always wars going on around the globe. But you're talking about, you know, a clash of civilizations, some sort of international conflict. That may already be underway. That may not be with guns and tanks. You know what I mean? We

may be already in that. It may be a cultural war. It may be an economic war. We may be in it. We just don't know it yet. Yes. You know, there's definitely a war for our minds and the hearts um of the american people but um you know that only goes so far and i think that that's sort of the older previous generation of warfare the new version of warfare is going to involve robots and ai and they don't need to be persuaded they don't need to be convinced they are simply programmed to go out and do the thing that they're instructed to do. And so I. People are going to go from laborers and producers to being completely made obsolete by robotic labor and artificial intelligence. And what society forms as a response to that technological disruption remains to be seen. And if that's true, that disruption may be larger than the internet's disruption. And we may be talking about that in 20 years as opposed to this, but

it remains to be seen. You are pessimistic, Zach. I am optimistic. So we are at loggerheads on pretty much everything in terms of how I think it's going to play out. But I appreciate your courage and your wisdom and bringing things forward and seeing things that weren't right and trying to do what's right. Leading a good life, which is, I think, a life of service and a life of truth and a life of trying to do what's good for people, doesn't always feel good. So are you getting to the point where it feels a little better? I feel great. This has been something where I've been able to unload this burden of feeling like I was destroying America. And instead, I've atoned for that through these leaks. am trying to bring awareness of what Google is doing and giving people the sovereignty to try

to influence their society for the next chapter to come. I think that brings us full circle and we'll kind of wrap it up there, but let's, on the way out here, describe when the book is available, where they can get it and what they'll get by reading it. Oh yeah. The book, uh, Google leaks, um, it's available on Amazon, August 3rd. Um, check it out. You can also check it out on my website, google leaks book.com again, that's google leaks book.com. You can read the first 20 pages. Um, and if you want to see the Google leaks, go to my website,

Zach Voorhees.com and then yeah, Zach Voorhees.com or check me out on twitter.com slash perpetual maniac. It's my gamer tag and I've got a lot of followers drop a lot of Intel. So follow it and you'll learn something new. I promise. Well, keep your eye on please doing good and not getting too caught up in the drama of it all. Because it is a dramatic situation and it's, you know, you got to keep your eye on due north all the time. It's hard. It's hard. Especially when you come under personal attack. I know well,

and I'll tell you my story sometime offline. Everyone here has heard them. But Zach, I appreciate it again for being with us. Those of you on Clubhouse, I'm going to wrap up this room.

We thank you for being here. Hope this was interesting for you. It was certainly interesting for me. And we'll be back again with future Clubhouses, no doubt. And Clubhouse is soon going to have just everybody in it

because it's going to make the rooms very, very big. Appreciate the questions, Mike. Thank you for participating. And there goes Clubhouse. And Caleb, anything else we need to point out here? Hey, Drew, do you want to end this on some good news? Yes, please. Here's a photo of our cute little baby. That is

Camden Nation. That is Caleb's baby. And, uh, this, that is the future. Ladies and gentlemen, one of the prettiest babies I've ever seen. And Susan's like a, uh, a baby whisperer. And she's, she immediately, after you saw some of these pictures you posted, she goes, well, I gotta go see that baby. And I'm like, they're in Alabama. Oh yeah. Yeah. She literally was going to get her car and drive to wherever you were. She wanted to see the baby so badly. Um, all right, everybody. We'll meet up with you guys somewhere. Yeah. By all means. And, uh, Zach, thank you for producing this. Uh, excuse me, uh, Caleb, thank you for producing this. Zach, thanks for joining me. Uh, send me an email Zach afterwards and we'll chat a little bit and And check out, you know, sign up Dr. Drew,

drdrewpinsky on Instagram, at Dr. Drew on Twitter and also on TikTok. I'll try to put some more TikToks up soon. I've been very bad at that of late. And I do do some TikTok lives and some Instagram lives periodically and answer your questions and interact with people.

You know, you can call people up, at least on Instagram. That's the dogs telling me I got to wrap things up. Did I miss anything, Caleb? Nope, you're all good. All right, we thank you all for being here. I believe, let me just check,

I don't know that we're back tomorrow, but I believe yes, we'll be back on Friday at noontime Pacific. We're going to have Dr. Lisa Stroman on the show. Lisa Stroman is a psychologist and lawyer and FBI scholar. She is going to have Dr. Lisa Stroman on the show. Lisa Stroman is a psychologist and lawyer and FBI scholar. And she is going to give us, amongst other things, some reports from the front line of adolescent behavior. She's an adolescent psychologist. And she has been seeing

mind-boggling stuff. We had her on here a few months ago. But the impact of all these kids having access to electronic media has been mind-boggling. And she has some specific data on where kids are at. And every time I talk to Lisa, I end up very upset. So maybe we'll have some solutions as well with this one. So I'll see you on Friday at noon. This is Dr. Drew. It's produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. This is just a reminder that the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care or medical evaluation.

This is purely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm a licensed physician with over 35 years of experience, but this is not a replacement for your personal physician, nor is it medical care. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me. Call 911. If you're feeling hopeless or suicidal,

call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255 anytime 24 7 for free support and guidance you can find more of my recommended organizations and helpful resources at drdrew.com help