Ask Dr. Drew - How 100s Of Epsteins Are Running Free Online: Laila Mickelwait’s P●rnHub Takedown vs. Privacy Challenge of Adult Sites Requiring ID w/ Emilie Hagen – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 508

Episode Date: July 20, 2025

Laila Mickelwait’s organization Traffickinghub was pivotal in the “biggest takedown of content in Internet history” after pressure forced PornHub to remove 50 million images and videos – over 90% of its content. Now the activist is pushing for a new US federal law to mandate third-party age verification for all adult websites. But could her proposal backfire? Critics warn: though the intention is to protect children, requiring all users to submit ID would effectively create the world’s largest target for hackers – even bigger than the 2015 Ashley Madison leaks. How can we protect children online while balancing the privacy norms and free speech of adults? Laila Mickelwait is the Founder/CEO of Justice Defense Fund and Traffickinghub. Her book, Takedown, details her fight against Pornhub’s role in trafficking. She received a Master of Public Diplomacy from the Annenberg School of Communications and the Dornsife School of International Relations at USC. More at https://x.com/LailaMickelwait Emilie Hagen is an independent journalist covering the Diddy trial, the Epstein files, and other high-profile cases. She writes at https://emiliehagen.substack.com 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 Find out more about the brands that make this show possible and get special discounts on Dr. Drew's favorite products at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/sponsors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • ACTIVE SKIN REPAIR - Repair skin faster with more of the molecule your body creates naturally! Hypochlorous (HOCl) is produced by white blood cells to support healing – and no sting. Get 20% off at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/skinrepair⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • VSHREDMD – Formulated by Dr. Drew: The Science of Cellular Health + World-Class Training Programs, Premium Content, and 1-1 Training with Certified V Shred Coaches! More at https://drdrew.com/vshredmd • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) and Susan Pinsky (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/firstladyoflov⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Should be very interesting today. We are going to talk about the Epstein list and who is on it. Hmm. I don't know to be revealed. Maybe we'll reveal some things here on the show. Emily Hagen joins us independent journalist. She was of course giving us reports from the D-Trial and other high profile cases. You can follow her Emily Hagen, H-A-G-E-N.

Emily is with an ie It's sub sub stack dots dot com and also Emily knows everything on Instagram Layla mickleway will then join us. She is on a campaign to essentially corral that Phenomena which is out of control really internationally, but certainly in our country, which is that of free pornography and what is that issue there? Layla Lila is at la I laICKELWAIT on X and Instagram. Trafficking Hub One on X. Got a lot to get into. Let's do so right after this.

Our laws as it pertain to substances are draconian and bizarre. Psychopaths start this way. He was an alcoholic. Cause of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin, ridiculous. I'm a doctor for ****. Where the hell you think I learned that?

I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. You have trouble, you can't stop, and you might help stop it.

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And Dr. Stephanie will be joining us in, I think next week or so. We're gonna talk about other things, the potential of reducing the risk of dementia and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease from fatty. And then to go alongside of that is I have the NR Boost and the Centosync. These are things you all should be taking. Fatty15 and NR Boost at minimum.

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with resveratrol, which is in centisynch. So take a look at the science for yourself. I just don't try to figure out ways to motivate people to get these products because everyone should be taking them. All right, Emily knows everything on Instagram. Emily with an IE is joining us now. You can also follow Emily Hagen on Substack.

Emily, welcome back. Thanks for having me. So I understand there are some surprises on the Epstein list and that there's some things that people are speculating about whom and who might not be on that list. I have suggested to, I think it was you, I brought this up in the Gutfeld Show, that we put Susan on that list. I have suggested to, I think it was you, I brought this up in the Gutfeld show,

that we put Susan on the list or we raise that potential that Susan is on the Epstein list to see see where it goes. But no one, yeah, no one took that one. Well, Drew, there's a lot of people, people think that you're projecting. I just started by saying that. That I'm projecting. Yes. So after our show last week, I posted the clip where I said, Dr. Drew does not believe there is a list. And my mom called and she goes, I really hope Dr. Drew isn't reading your comment section. You're not going to be on that show again.

They're ripping him apart. And so I looked and they all think you're on the list. They said, Dr. Drew is definitely on the list. He must be on it. Tell me you're on the list without telling me you're on the list. Emily, why are you doing Dr. Drew's show? He's in the Fame Club. How else do you think he got all his fame?

To which someone replied, Paramount slash MTV. Then it got a little more dark. Someone said, I'm really surprised by the reaction of Dr. Drew. It's kind of weird seeing him being so defensive towards this situation. You would think a guy like Dr. Drew would be more sympathetic,

especially when talking about pedophilia. Then my favorite comment was, what happened to- That's actually, hang on, hang on, that's actually not a dark comment. That's a reasonable comment. I agree with that, because I fluctuate a little bit whenever I say I don't really care about this thing,

I think, well, you know, these people are pedophiles, that's for sure, and by the way, God knows there are a lot of those out there, and I've dealt with them for many, many years, I have no patience with any of that, but for the whole country to be unraveling because of this one. What do you mean you've dealt with them?

Okay, there needs to be justice. Pedophiles, are you kidding? Love Line, almost every call was somebody who was sexually abused as a child. I mean, it was so common in the 80s and 90s, you can't even imagine. And on my drug unit, if you came onto the drug unit, there was about a 60% probability

that you'd been sexually and physically abused in childhood. That just was very, very common. And it was one of the underpinnings of addiction because of that trauma. So anyway, the point, I'm not defending, I'm just sort of explicating. So I'm sympathetic to that one comment. That one seems good to me.

But let's talk about what I wrote. But they're wondering why you're sympathetic towards the people that call in the love line. But then when it's celebrities that could potentially be pedophiles, you're kind of brushing it off. I am brushing, I love the way you're presenting this to me. I'm brushing off the, here's the thing, two things, two things. One, if these people are criminal masterminds

like I suspect they are, I don't imagine they wrote a list down. It's going to be just a bunch of videos, right? Now maybe somebody has collated the videos and has some sort of library card or something of the videos. So I guess there's something like a list, but there's not like a little black book that Epstein carried around in his pocket.

That makes no sense to me. That seems like a fantasy. So that's what I was saying when I said no list. Right, I think people took it a little out of context because I don't think you denied that there was something dark happening, right? Oh, oh yes. I was there, Emily, don't you know?

I was on Epstein Island. Of course I know something terrible is happening. These people told you I was there. I must have been there. I just can't remember, I guess. I don't know. I seem to have amnesia. You know, some of them have watched you

for many, many years, and they said, I don't know what it was, Emily, about this one clip, but suddenly Dr. Drew has dead eyes. What? So, so Caleb, I thought especially you would love this. Because Caleb, Caleb harkens from this kind of thinking. So, so tell me more. What do you think?

All the way, Caleb didn't get any hate. I posted Caleb saying, absolutely alive and he let people like that. Oh, well, I love the people as well. But like I there's there's this is like the furthest possible thing from Dr. Drew of all people on earth. Like, this is not the one you ever find on the list. Maybe I got brainwashed and I can't remember. Caleb, maybe. Oh yeah, maybe you're MK Ultra, who knows?

I just like, if you're, if Drew, Emily, if Drew is MK Ultra, then they have waited a long time to activate this asset. Like, they could have activated him 20, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, but they're still waiting, I guess. I mean, I think Drew, I'm not, that's going to sound kind of rude, but I think you're a little too,

maybe boring to go to Epstead Island. Like you don't seem like a big party or a raging partier. That's my opinion. That's my take. What I like Emily is, Susan talks the way you talk Emily. It's like, you're like, I'm sorry, I'm going to say you're too boring for me

to go to. To go to. I just can't picture you ripping shots on the Lolita Express with Kevin Spacey in the bathroom. Cause now Elon is saying there is a bathroom. There is a bathroom on the plane. Elon did tweet that yesterday to Kevin Spacey. Maybe it's a cover. No, a bedroom. Maybe it's a bathroom. There is a bathroom on the plane. Elon did tweet that yesterday to Kevin Spacey. Maybe it's a cover.

No, a bedroom. Maybe it's a cover. A bedroom in the back of the plane. Yeah. So I don't know if anyone would know, it would be Drew, not Caleb, not Susan. It would be Drew. And Susan, what did I say when they mentioned the bedroom in the back of the plane?

Something could go down in there. No, no. I think Susan's on the left. Maybe it's Susan. No no. I think Susan's on the list. Where's Susan? No, no, I really think. What did you say? I don't know what you said. She's on the list.

I said, that's of course. These planes have, they travel in these planes. There's a bedroom back there. That's what happened. But then you could say, I was on the plane. That's why I said, of course. But anyway, the point I'm making is, go ahead, Emily, finish it up.

No, I just think, no, I think you should make, I think it's time for you to make your point, actually. I'm just the voice of the people, okay? I appreciate all of their concerns, but you can twist anything into anything, and that's the point. So no matter what I say, somebody is going to say that what I'm saying

is you can twist it into some sort of something that means something, right? That's all we can do. Right. That's how our cognitive functionings work. And especially when there's a paranoid intent behind it, because part of paranoia is when you don't have adequate information, then you're going to make meaning from the snippets you have.

And oftentimes that is a very flawed way of reasoning because you're not reasoning in a Bayesian fashion with adequate information. And I'm here, let me be super clear because if I don't say this, they'll say I didn't say this and therefore I was on the list. I didn't, I've never met Mr. Epstein,

I've never been on his plane, I've never been to Epstein Island. I don't like the fact that the whole country is like vibrating, worrying about this asshole. I talk to- That's the problem. That's the problem. Now you're pulling in Donald Trump. Why are we still talking about Epstein? Why is the world vibrating? I am. I am. And full respect to people like Anouska who were taken advantage of by these people

whose lives were turned upside down. I mean, go watch that interview if you want to hear what happened to the women that were trafficked and abused by this. Yeah, we need justice for them. Listen to that interview. And this woman that has now died, I worry that something happened to her indeed,

that maybe it wasn't a suicide or whatever they're saying it was. And yes, the justice needs to be served. But I think, let this thing come out in real time. Let it happen. Let it unfold. Don't be in such hurt. Yeah, but it's not going to come out

because now Trump's saying that it's a big hoax. Now we've entered the Jeffrey Epstein hoax era where he's telling his, he's basically saying that the radical left have hit, pay dirt again. He's putting out, he's blaming Comey. He's putting blame on everyone. And he's even, people are mad. So now because he won't be transparent, you're getting, you're getting blamed

because they won't release it. Now you're getting, you're catching straight. It's actually causing seismic political problems. And I hope that they'll address it and I'll get better I really do but what is it? I'll tell you what it is It's the frustration of normal people watching a certain class of people get away with everything every single time Yeah, that's what it is that that I agree with that is that is a the reasonable thing to be concerned about But it's happening everywhere all the time in so many domains.

Let's keep our eye on that ball and see if we can, with time, get this all sort of unraveled. I think the reason people are mad is because of the play in gaslighting. It's not for you, but not me. It's no longer the way of America. What about gaslighting? We're being gaslit. So I understand the American people, the everyday person, the ones that are not part of the club. This was part of his campaign. If he gets elected, he's going to release the list. They're waving the binders and now we're getting told that if you even believe in the list,

that you're acting like a Democrat and carrying out the Democrats' work, that's insane. I think today was the most insane Tweet he has ever put out on truth social because I've never seen Maga in such people are out report a report that came out Yesterday drew that said that President Trump has been personally contacting prominent conservative Influencers urging them to tone down their criticism of his administration's handling of the Epstein case. It's so bad. It's so bad that Emily has developed jazz hands

right here, right now. I just saw some jazz hands there. Well, I mean, really, I don't know why I care so much. I am really upset. But I think the reason I'm so, someone today said, Emily, your vibration's low. You have bad energy right now. Why do you care?

And I was like, I just hate liars. And I hate being gaslit. I feel like the line is really what I'm, I'm mad about the line. And I hate when people aren't transparent. I like when things are just on the table. Like I'm like, hey, Drew, you're boring. Like that, I like that.

You know what I mean? I like, just talk shit to my face. Say what you mean. I don't like this like secretive stuff that's happening. And I also don't like that Trump thinks that we're all stupid. It's so annoying. Well, Emily, I'm going to say,

let me just push back on one simple thing that sometimes common things happen commonly. You know what I mean? And somebody like him, I mean, I'm going to talk to Lila in a minute about people that do this kind of stuff. And they're not as infrequent as you'd imagine. And they have many different flavors to them.

And in a weird way, Ghislaine may be the real kind of mastermind sociopath in this, if indeed she was grooming these poor women. So there's a lot of psychopathology, criminal behavior that is common in what they were doing. What's odd is all the celebrities and how we had cobb knob with everybody and then we immediately start assuming

that people were brought into this thing and then you're hearing that maybe they were and Prince Andrew and blah, blah, blah. And we're building big castles in our brains and they may be true, but let's give it a chance to come out, let's keep the heat on but not be in a panic about it. Like I said, I'm on the list, I was there,

Susan's on the list, it wasn't that exciting, wasn't that interesting. Nothing to see here guys. But they're trying to free Galay now. I know, but maybe they'll free her on the condition that she talks. That could be interesting. That's not going to happen. Maybe that's going to get screwed up.

We don't live in a world. We don't live in a world. This is hell. We're living in hell. This feels like hell right now. I feel like I'm burning in flames. Okay. Like, this is not, we're never going to get the truth.

I said it since day one. When they said we were getting the truth, I said, there's no way the Trump administration is ever giving us those names the public could not handle it. And by the way it's like that you know did you see did you see what's the attorney's name help me the Yale attorney no no no no the defense attorney Dershowitz Dershowitz said I've seen who was there it's all redacted. I know why they're being protected. Meaning there's a motivation that makes sense.

It's not irrational. And that's that. And he didn't say the world will come undone. He didn't say, oh my God, wait till you see. He just was like, yeah, there's a list of some people. I looked at it and we'll know one day is sort of what kind of wink, wink what he's saying. And then you've got the FBI agents going,

wink, wink, we're lying, because they are. And we'll see, let's give it some time to come to the truth. In the meantime, keep the heat on. And Tucker Carlson was, I think, spot on there. We are tired of people, we are tired of justice for thee, but not for me. That is a sick, there's so much about our country

that is ill right now, and this is just another thing. So let's keep our heat, keep the heat on it. How's Kanye doing? Yeah. I haven't even been following Kanye. I'm so sad about that. You know what, can I say something really quick about the post that Trump made, telling the media,

the conservative media to stop doing it. It reminds me of the letter you got about Luigi Mangione. The letter that we're not going to talk about? Well, I mean, you said we were going to talk about it, but we're not going to talk about him. Yeah, it's censorship. This is crazy. Come on, let's talk about it.

No, I am willing to allow, I have my own theories about what's going on and I'm willing to allow the legal process to unfold. I do not want to adulterate that in any way. And when I see what I see, when the facts are presented, I will have an opinion and I will speak about it. I'm also, in addition to all the nonsense we're talking about of the justice for, you know, people getting away with stuff in certain positions,

we're also tired with people telling us we can't express our opinions. That's disgusting. I'm sorry. We have opinions, we're allowed to discuss them. It's the United States. Now, I understand my, I have an ethical sort of crucible to bear as a physician that, you know, my words carry weight.

I understand that could influence maybe jury pools and things, so I'm willing to kind of, okay, I'll give it a little time. Time, listen everybody, think in terms of time being an important ingredient in getting to the truth and getting where we want to go. Let time come to bear. Everyone's in a panic all the time.

Don't be in a panic. It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. Let's just get where we need to go in all in good time, as the Wicked Witch of the West says. Emily, anything else you're working on now? What do we find on your sub stack? Yeah. I mean, this week I didn't want to talk.

I was so sick of talking about Epstein that I decided to do a deep dive into lipstick. So it got people thinking about lipstick. And then people were even outraged by that. People were like, how dare you encourage consumerism? And I'm like, you don't have to wear lipstick. You don't want to have crimson lips. You don't have to. But I realized this week, I hate the internet,

but I also love it. People are going to be mad no matter what you do. And I'm getting back into my maha routine. I'm working out, getting sunlight, because you can't find true happiness on the internet. Well done. Well done. Thank you so much. And the lipstick,

I'm assuming you took the lipstick, all makeup all the way back to the Egyptians or the Sumerians. Yes. Yeah, people were mad about that. Like how dare you talk about the Sumerians. And like we're mad at the Sumerians too. We're mad at Cleopatra for using ants.

Like what are we mad about? The best part is though, you always, I mean, it's really good that you don't read the troll comments. Cause I was getting mad for you. Cause I know you didn't go to the island. Well, I just said, I just made a reference to the wicked witch of the West,

which people will take as a code for I was on Epstein Island. So there you go. So, so be that as it may, we continue to- Last question. Do you think they're going to free Delaine? Do you think Trump will pardon her? I do. And I, well, only if there is a, I feel like there's a, somewhere there's a cascade of

influences and phenomenon that have to be sorted through before we get to the truth. And I sort of feel like one of them may be her coming out. And if she comes out on the condition that she speaks and that we can somehow get to the truth or she helps us get to the truth or something, I think that she might come out. She might. And all of a sudden they're like paparazzi photographed her running through that. Oh, look at Galeen running. It's all feeling very orchestrated. And I feel like the people are waking up to the bullshit. The internet is too good. Even though I hate it, it's like it's all feeling very orchestrated and I feel like the people are waking up to the bullshit the Internet is too good. Even though I hate it. It's too good Like they can't lie to us as much anymore because we see every little angle now They're even releasing footage to this assassination attempt. There's new footage to new angles coming out. That's gonna be brewing more conspiracies

So we're in a really weird time Well, we have to watch out for our own reasoning. Our reasoning, our cognitive functioning is what can lead us off. Not the internet, unfortunately. And we may not even know if it's AI or not, because they're so good at it. That is a whole nother challenge.

And that's why everyone reserve, be careful, think carefully, reserve judgment, don't jump to conclusions. Emily, we look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you for having me. Thanks for clearing that up. Always. Bye.

Well, I'm not sure that we did, but let's get to my next guest who has got a very interesting story about free pornography. The fact that porn is so available that for a lot of people, this holding up my phone is a crack pipe and a lot of people are showing up on these What are they called? Tubes the tubes I think is what Lila taught me that

Don't know they're there or didn't get permission to be there Lila can be followed on X. Her name looks like Layla, L-A-I-L-A, Mikaweigh, M-I-C-K-E-L-W-A-I-T, X, Instagram, and then it's TraffickingHub1 on X, TraffickingHub.com. Laila, welcome. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Thank you for wading through our little fun and games there for a few minutes about Epstein. But talk to us about what your campaign is, how you got to it. And Caleb, I want you to feel free. I know you have some concerns about how this gets done and I'm willing to let you ring in here too as well. But Lila, explain what is that issue?

Sure. Yeah, the issue, and excuse my voice. I'm losing my voice a little bit. I was getting over a bug. So please excuse that. But yeah, the issue here is, is illegal content proliferating on what in 2020 was the fifth most visited website in the world. The most popular porn site in the world, a cultural icon at the time, in 2020 when the fight to hold them accountable for the mass distribution of sexual crime, and that includes child sexual abuse, rape, trafficking,

revenge porn, what we call image-based sexual abuse, and all forms of non-consensual content being mass distributed on this website for profit, for the profit of the owners of this website and done so intentionally. And we have so much, we mountains of evidence now of the way that this company was operating, the policy decisions that were made that enabled the abuse.

And so this is an issue of the world's biggest porn site being infested with videos of real sexual crime. And that is because in 2020, I discovered what millions of people already knew. And that is that all it took to upload to Pornhub was an email address that in under 10 minutes, anybody in the world with only an email address anonymously could upload sex videos to the site without verifying ID to make sure that these are not children in the videos, without verifying consent to make sure that they're not rape or trafficking victims.

And because of that, the site actually became a crime scene. I often say that Pornhub is not a porn site, it's actually a crime scene. And these children, even children as young as three, the stories that really arrested my attention and started this movement for accountability that's called the Trafficking Hub Movement, in late 2019, there were some really concerning headlines that grabbed my attention as somebody

who's been in this fight for now almost 20 years in the fight against sex trafficking. And I was paying attention to the headlines and there was a headline about a 15 year old girl from Broward County, Florida, who was missing for an entire year. And she was finally found when her distraught mother was tipped off by a Pornhub user

that he recognized her daughter on the site. And she was found in 58 videos being raped and trafficked for profit on Pornhub. The London Sunday Times did an investigation at the same time, and they found dozens of illegal videos on the site within minutes, even children as young as three years old. And so the question became, how in the world did this happen? And that's when I began to really more deeply investigate the site and realized that this site was, like I said, infested with sexual crime. And just to give a sense for how

big Pornhub was at the time when this fight began, Pornhub in 2020, by the end of 2020, Pornhub had 170 million visits per day, 62 billion visits per year. They had enough content uploaded every year, every 12 months. It would take 169 years to watch if you put those videos back to back. They were named as the third most influential tech company on global society, just behind Facebook and Google. And this was the YouTube of porn, right?

This was where anybody in the world who had an iPhone could become a pornographer and upload sex videos, again, anonymously to the world's largest porn site. That's how this happened. And we've come a long way in the fight for accountability because there are so many victims whose lives have been completely shattered by this predatory organization

and they have to be held accountable. And you're trying to make it less accessible in terms of upload, and then you're also trying to hold them accountable for the crimes? And then you're also trying, I want to make sure I get, what all the different actions, action plan

is you're looking for. And also you want people to have some sort of verification to get on these sites. 100%. So part of this is accountability. It's justice being fully served because when we serve justice to those who are, like I say, corporate abusers, I call them mega traffickers,

then what we can do is not only bring healing to victims and justice to victims, but we can then deter future abusers. Deterrent is a really powerful tool when we're thinking about combating sexual crime. And it's real and it's important. And so when we hold them fully accountable, and what that means is, you know, right now we have over 300 victims who have sued Pornhub in 27 lawsuits, including certified class action lawsuits on behalf of tens of thousands of child victims. And they're going to trial in September.

There's going to be a trial in September in Alabama on behalf of these children, tens of thousands of children who've been abused this way on porn, again, for profit. And so we need to see justice for them. We also need to see criminal justice served. But then to your point of prevention, right, and policy, and how do we prevent this from happening in the future? Well, the key to that is, you know, look back at the origin of the problem.

The origin of the problem was unregulated, you know, free uploading without verifying ID or consent or age. And so if we want to actually fix the problem, the way we do that is we have mandatory third party, right? Third party is important. It's independent third party, age and consent verification for every single individual on every single website that per terms of service distributes user-generated pornography. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders.

Shop now at NoFrills.ca. And we want to see that at a government level. So we want to see that, you know, federal policy in countries around the world. But we also want to see corporate policy where we know that the credit card companies have an enormous power over these websites and how they behave. We know this because when Visa, MasterCard and Discover joined PayPal and cutting all ties with Pornhub, they actually have taken down 91% of the entire website is gone. They had to delete over 50 million videos and images because they were unverified. And what Financial Times has called probably the biggest takedown of content in internet history.

They did this because of the pressure from the credit card companies. So we need to see Visa implement a policy that says, we don't do business with user-generated porn sites that don't verify age and consent. And when we see that happen, it's instant, it's global, and it will significantly prevent this problem. So I need to take a quick break.

I didn't, when you were talking to me and Adam, I don't feel like I heard that message about the credit cards quite as clearly as you just stated it. That seems like a very specific intervention. Are you? Yes. I'm going to take a, hang on, I'm going to take a break

and I want you to tell me, are you having good, you know, sort of uptake from the credit card companies? Are you getting headwinds? Is there a resistance? And what is the nature of that battle? Okay. And then people should,

if you want people to sort of be, participate with you, do you go to traffickinghub.com? Is that where you go? Actually, justicedefenseund.org is probably the best place to go. And from there you can sign the petition, join 2.3 million other people signing the petition to shut down Pornhub and hold its executives accountable. And you can take lots of other action steps from there. And then Caleb, I understand I saw some notes that you put in that you had some concerns about how this would happen. So we'll let you ask some questions as well.

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And you were saying, of course, Lila Mikkelweight, and you can tell them again, the Justice website again, I'm sure it's in front of me. Justice Defense Fund. JusticeDefenseFund.org, yeah. Yeah, it is in front of a bigger part. We have traffickinghub.com, but it's JusticeDefenseFund.org. Yeah. Yeah, it is in front of a bigger part. We have traffickingub.com, but it's JusticeDefenseFund.org.

And, yeah. And then before the break, we were talking about credit cards and how that could just change everything instantly. So what is going on in that front? Yeah, so early on, we understood that the credit cards were just such an important pressure

point in forcing change. Because at the end of the day, these corporate executives, they care about one thing, and they care about money, right? At the end of the day, this is a risk benefit calculation for them. And as long as the benefit outweighs the risk, they will continue the exploitation as long as it's profitable. So we understood that one of the best ways to hit them where it really hurt

would be to go after the credit card companies to cut ties. And so, you know, that's exactly what we did. And one of the craziest things that's happened is the former owner of PornHub who sold the site in 2013, came forward in the midst of this campaign going viral, and he said he wanted to help. And one of the things that he said was, if you really want to bring them to their knees,

if you really wanna force change, go after the credit card companies. That's exactly what we did. And thanks to the help of many, many people, and especially the victims who came forward, courageous survivors like Serena Flaitas, many people, and especially the victims who came forward, you know, courageous survivors like Serena Flaitas, for example, who was the face of a powerful New York Times expose called The Children of Pornhub.

And she at 13 years old, she was convinced by a boy a year older than her to send some nude images and videos of herself, which she did because she had a crush on the boy. At the time, she was an innocent 13-year-old. She had never kissed a boy before. She was a straight-A student. And she sent these images and videos. And he shared them with classmates. And they were uploaded to Pornhub,

where they began to get millions of views. And she would beg for them to come down. And she would be ignored. And if they did respond, she testified before Canadian Parliament. And she's currently su, you know, she testified before Canadian parliament and she's currently suing Pornhub and also suing Visa for its relationship with Pornhub. But she said, you know, that if she was answered,

they would hassle her to say, you know, prove that you're a victim in these videos, prove that you're underage in these videos. And even if she did get them down, they would just get re-uploaded and this sent her on a spiral of despair. And she ended up getting addicted to drugs to numb the pain. She dropped out of school.

She was being bullied. She tried to kill herself multiple times. And this is very common with these types of victims. There's some surveys that are showing that up to 50% of victims of image-based sexual abuse have suicidal ideations. And then she ended up homeless living out of her car. So she's suing Pornhub today.

And she actually sued Visa. They lost their motion to dismiss in 2022. And that really tipped the scales in all of this. And finally, Visa actually cut ties with Pornhub, MasterCard, joined PayPal, Discover, and they were demonetized essentially. And that is what triggered them in a panic to take down, like I said, 91% of the sites.

So we know how much power the credit card companies have. And so what we're asking them to do now is to implement agent consent verification policy now. MasterCard actually took a huge step in that direction in 2021 and Visa in 2022 to require the verification of uploaders, but that's just not going far enough. We have to have the verification of the individuals

in every single video in order to stop this abuse. So you don't want to take down Pornhub? You want to sort of corral it let's say or make it absolutely not absolutely no I want to take down Pornhub I want to shut down Pornhub 100% from the very beginning okay this has been about shutting down Pornhub and holding its executives accountable and the petition that gained 2.3 million signatures from every country in the world, the call to action is shut down Pornhub, because that is what justice looks

like in this situation where the executives have made intentional policy decisions that have destroyed the lives of so many victims. And we could talk about some of those. OK, I'm happy to. But what is their business model? How are they making money? You said there's some of it is credit card about some of those. Okay, I'm happy to. But what is their business model? How are they making money? You said there's some of it is credit card for some of it,

but is it all data? Do they just sell the data of the users? So the free porn site, so the free porn tube site model is essentially selling advertising. So they were selling 4.6 billion ad impressions every single day on Pornhub on millions. Again, in 2020, they had 56 million pieces of content.

So on 56 million videos and images, they were selling 4.6 billion ad impressions every day. And that is how they were monetizing the content. They were buying the ads. The advertisers were buying the ads using Visa, MasterCard, Discover. Now they had other ways that they were monetizing user data, again, to sell to advertisers and third parties. But they were also, they had a small part of the site that was this model program where

it was paid to download content and it would be behind a paywall and then they were monetizing that way. But again, that was about 20% of the site. But yes, that's how they were, that's how they make money on free porn. Now when we talk about trafficking, let's just really quick zoom in onto why the movement that I started was called Trafficking Hub. It is because anytime you monetize or commercialize child sexual abuse or non-consensual sexual activity like rape, right, that is what defines trafficking.

So that's what makes rape trafficking is when you commercialize it. Now, when we have all of these videos, when you have Serena, when you have a 12 year old boy from Alabama drugged and raped and overpowered by a man named Rocky Shay Franklin who uploaded 23 of those videos to PornHub with titles that indicated that it was abuse, like Young Ass is Best, like Uncle Secret and Little Nephew and things like this.

And they're monetized. Listen, these are monetized videos. And that's what makes it trafficking. So I think that's really important for people to understand, is that is the business model that was, you know, relied on unfettered, unregulated, frictionless uploading that allowed so much illegal content to go through. And the things that we discovered,

because we had moderators from the site coming forward, we had employees and managers and so many people coming forward to expose the inner workings of the intentional decisions that these executives made to enable this to happen. Like, for example, like they had one person, one person out of 1800 employees who was tasked with the job of reviewing videos that were flagged by users as terms of service violations, including illegal content.

And they had an intentional policy where a user would have to flag a video 15 times for it to be even put in line for review. So you would have a victim that would see their rape on the site and they would, if they wanted to flag that video, they would have to flag it over 15 times for anyone to do anything with it, to even put it in line for review. And they had a queue of over 750,000 videos in this queue. They had, well, I'll tell you one more thing. We found out they had 30 moderators working in Cyprus.

Now compare that to Facebook's 15,000 and they still don't have enough. And they were working 10 at a time, eight hours at a time, eight hour shifts, 10 at a time. They were clicking through between 800 and 2000 videos per eight hour shift. Just with the sound off, often just clicking through these videos, guessing who was 16 and who was 18,

guessing what was rough sex and what was rape. And often they were guessing wrong. And those were intentional decisions to hire just 10 people, right? And that was not just for Pornhub, it was actually for all of Pornhub's sister sites as well. Caleb, you had some questions for Lila? Yes.

Yeah. So I come in at this from, I've run a lot of websites in my time, but I've never really had to deal with this sort of an issue before with any of the sites or forums and stuff. But can you explain to me why like Microsoft photo DNA can't solve most of this problem by just getting tags and the I forget what they the hashes of it so that it could just ban all of you know basically drew what photo DNA does I don't know if you're familiar but it takes images or videos that are illegal content and then it gives them a hash value so people never don't have to actually view it or review it again.

But then that hash value gets added to a database and then websites that are connected with Microsoft PhotoDNA or CloudFlare has their own system. It automatically runs any uploaded photo or video through the system, flags and deletes and reports anything. So these sites that have user uploads, it's kind of a system in place.

But why isn't PhotoDNA fixing this? Sure, I can tell you. And by the way, Pornhub wasn't using any available technology until they were in hot water, until they were exposed. And we have this from testimony, from depositions, from evidence gathered in legal discovery. We know that that was the case. But even if when you employ hashes, that does help with some instances, especially previously uploaded instances of child sexual abuse where you can hash this content and there's other technology that can do the same thing as well. One issue is that when you modify, if you're trying to hash a video, for example, if they make a modification to that video, if there's a small edit in that video, often then if it's re-uploaded, it won't detect that video.

But again, this is for previously reported in hash, but it doesn't account for new CSAM, new child sexual abuse, new if you're going to apply this to adults. The other issue is that AI can't do anything that we can't do. So we're talking about previously hashed, but if you're talking about detecting new content, they can't tell the... Computers can't tell the difference between 16-year-old body and an 18-year-old body, right?

One is contraband, one is a federal crime, one is legal in the United States, right, if you're over 18. And so, again, this is a game of Russian roulette. This is a game, a sadistic game of Russian roulette. This is a game, a sadistic game of Russian roulette with people's lives where unless you're actually reliably verifying with a government issued ID, right, the age and then the documented consent of every individual, there's no way that they can be able to detect this content and take it down.

Right. Which that also brings me to my other question, which is my concern just specifically because I've been on the internet for a very long time, is that I'm not against your idea with this, but I understand the big pushback for it is that if adult sites require photo ID to be submitted for everyone, for the users and for the uploaders, then what ends up happening is that place becomes the world's biggest target for hackers on the planet.

Like that's a hundred thousand times bigger than the Ashley Madison leaks. And so it seems, is there any fear or are there any things being put in place that if your plan was to go through, what do you do about those situations? Because it's going to get hacked. Like that's going to be the biggest target.

That's all the people and all the blackmail and everyone on earth and their photo IDs. I don't disagree with you. And you know what? Pornhub is currently being sued in a class action for data exploitation. I would never in a million years want anybody to hand their ID over to Pornhub or its parent company, MindGeek. But we have third party companies.

We have privacy-respecting, legitimate companies that are very advanced in their technology and the way that they can verify using a biometric scan in one second. They could tell who is your age and then immediately without even using pixels and numbers, without even actually obtaining your ID. And that's for the user side. So I first want to make a distinction about what we're talking about. So first of all, there's those who are behind the screen, right? Those are in the videos. And we need to verify that they're adults and that they're consenting, right? That they're not children or rape victims. That's one thing. Then we have users, right? These are free porn sites. And so we have so many children who are being exposed to this content. So

much of it illegal, so much of it where a six-year-old child could watch a real rape as their sex education. And we need to protect them. So the idea is that we're going to implement age verification in front of the screen and behind the screen. And when we're talking about user age verification, there is technology we have and it's the similar technology to what we would use for those in the videos. But I just want to make a distinction between the user side and then those who are in the videos. And-

Right, because it makes so much sense. I mean, that's something that I think almost everybody would support is that anyone who can upload a video to these sites, all of those people should have verification, should have ID verification, you should know who those people are, you should know who's in the videos, so that if they upload something that's illegal, then you know exactly who to go after, right? It just... Not just the uploader, though.

Right. Not just the uploader. It has to be the individuals in the video. Well, right. Exactly. Right. That all seems totally rational. It seems like something they should have had in place this whole freaking time. Like they should have done that and they haven't. They've had USC 2257 since 1988 in America. We've had a law that the pornography industry for the most part,

you know, we talk about like prick and mortar studio produced porn back in the day, you know, they still have right like professionally studio produced porn where they have to abide by this law called USC 2257. It requires identification and consent verification for those who are in the content. It just hasn't evolved and they haven't been held accountable to this law in the internet age when we have user-generated content proliferating on these sites. So there's that right like that's not a novel concept it's common sense but I also think that children need to be protected in front of the screen too and I do think that age verification is a reasonable way to act.

So that's that's that's an extension of my early porn exposure Caleb the early porn exposure is causing porn addiction like crazy. It shatters the brain upper regulatory limit and they just become preoccupied. Or they're so traumatized by it, they have other mental health consequences as well. That's 90% of the purpose of having parental control software is just to block

a whole big old list of sites of all of this stuff Right, yeah, there's one of our friends go there look at this It's just not enough. I think we need so many different layers You know when we think about safety and other contacts we think about safety in a car, right? We don't say like a seat belt enough and then that's all you need, right? We have so many different layers of security and I think the same is here, right? We need parental controls,

but think about kids that don't really have attentive parents. What about parents that are not tech savvy? What about parents that are too busy putting food on the table to be monitoring their kids' screen time 24-7? What about kids in foster care, right? What about those kids? Like they need, we can't just kids in foster care, right? What about those kids? Like, they need... We can't just put it on parents, right?

And so, like, this is just another layer. Exactly. And it makes a lot of sense. You're right. It makes a lot of sense and it's very harmful. It's just my worry about it is I know how these things work. I know how people, they come in and they say, oh, someone just rammed planes into the twin towers and so we need something called the Patriot Act to watch what everyone does

because it keeps everyone safer. Or they make, you know, all of, they're constantly trying to add these new things that are making people who are not criminals and who are not doing anything wrong give up some of their privacy and some of their rights. And so it seems like it would be a, you know, almost like an acceptable medium

that obviously there needs to be laws in place that anyone who wants to upload to these sites should have their photo verification done. But it just seems like such a large risk to everyone's rights, because it always starts with we'll protect the children. Like they it's always the way that they kind of push new things in. And I'm not disagreeing with you, like something needs to be done about it. But this is how all of our loss of our rights are always won. It's they always do it by saying we've got to protect the kids.

Lila, paint what you'd like it to look like, what the landscape would look like. Because, you know, as people are saying on the chats, you know, you take down Pornhub, there'll be 20 other sites, you know, that fill it in. And so you have to, the phenomenon needs to be contained and what you imagine, you know, in your, in a utopia, what would that look like if you could get

all these things in place? And I appreciate that commentary because I think that naturally people's minds go, well, if you hold PornHub account, well, even though, you know, they are the world's largest porn site, right, owned by the conglomerate of porn. So this is a key point.

It's owned by a parent company that has a monopoly on the global porn industry with a $362 million loan. They essentially rolled up the porn industry from Colbet Capital Hedge Fund and other investors that included Cornell University and JPMorgan Chase. And they bought up the world's most popular porn sites and brands and tube sites and rolled this up under one enormous international multi-billion dollar conglomerate called MindGeek that they now renamed ALO. So when we hold PornHub accountable, just FYI, we're holding a bigger organization accountable and all of its sister sites.

And we're setting a new industry standard. And what we're doing is we're creating a deterrent effect. And what we're seeing is that other competitors, some of the biggest competitors in the space, like X Hamster, owned by Hammy Media, for example, they're proactively trying to clean up their sites. They're trying to take down illegal content. They're trying to change the upload process because they don't want to end up like Pornhub facing litigation, facing

criminal charges. They've been criminally charged by the US government now for intentionally profiting from the sex trafficking over a hundred victims in California. So I think that's really key. But to the point of like, we don't want to whack a mole. We don't want to just be whacking this site and then this comes up. That's why I think the key to this, like I said before, is if Visa were to say, we don't do business with user-generated porn sites that don't verify agent

consent, just like they have anti-money laundering policy, instantly. These are highly motivated companies to comply with credit card company demands. You would fix this problem quickly. Well, and it's, you know, to the people that are saying in the comments, you know, I understand they're saying where it's like you shut down the one big one and then 20 more sites grow out of that. But that's similar to like, you know, illegal drug trade where it's well, you're never going to win the war on drugs. It's just a constant battle that you have to fight. And so if you take down the biggest one, you have 20 more might pop up, but it's going to be a lot harder for those because then none of them can get credit cards. None of them, the users are all spread around. They, you know, so I respect the fight that you're doing. Like someone has to be fighting against them, even if they may never get to the point where all access to all adult sites require, you know, ID verification. Someone fighting for that is making big changes.

Right. You can get real close. At least with the biggest sites, you know, the biggest sites out there and we're seeing it actually happen in real time that they're making these, let me tell you on June 30th, HornHub had to take down, so I said there was 9% left of the site that was remaining after the fight over the last five years. And they had to take down a significant portion of the remaining 9% on June 30. And today they have been forced now, they have been forced to now implement the verification

of the Asian consent of people who are uploading now. But it took since 2007, they've been doing this since 2007. Well, I consider you party. Why have free porn at all? Hang on, why have free porn at all? Why not make it all, somehow make it all have to be purchased? That would sort of create a, I mean, everybody would,

I'm thinking of human motivation, right? The card companies would be motivated to do that. These porn providers would be motivated to do that. It'd be a business model. And it would help create a layer between, you know, the user or just some kid on the street and somebody has to pay. That's age verification right there is to put it behind a paywall first of all. You know I want to point out the hypocrisy of these sites like Pornhub who recently sued right the state of

Texas and they lost it went to the Supreme Court because Texas implemented age verification to protect children from access to these sites. And Pornhub and its allies sued again that went to the Supreme Court. They lost. But, you know, they're saying they're up in arms about privacy. They're saying, oh, we're protesting. They shut themselves down in 17 states across the U.S.

Pornhub actually shut itself down in France because it wanted to oppose age verification. That's its second biggest market. It shut itself down saying, oh, you're making this big deal about privacy. When listen, the same company that owns Pornhub owns some of the biggest paid sites and subscription sites in the world, Reality King, Browzers, MoFo. I mean, name like so many of these subscription sites. And they own a payment company actually called ProBiller where they're taking the credit card payments from users. And they're taking that data, that private information, names, addresses, credit card.

They have no problem when it serves their financial interest to take your private information. The problem with free porn is once you put a, once you put that verification, they're going to lose traffic and they need traffic to sell ads. And so that's why they're opposing this. It has nothing to do with privacy. And so I think everybody should just understand that from just baseline. Like, let's just get to this from a point of truth. Right.

Right. Well, I respect you a lot. from just baseline, like let's just get to this from a point of truth. Right, right. Well, I respect you a lot. I feel like you're part of internet history here because that's a massive undertaking. I think it was the biggest take down in internet history. So I applaud you for that. Very, very good job and keep working at it.

Keep doing this. Thank you. Thanks for being part of it. Yeah, your thinking is quite clear and you express it well, and it's hard to push back. I mean, it makes sense, and it's about helping people and not hurting people.

It's silly that we have to have these conversations, but I guess there's a lesson here, which is when technology progresses, be careful what you wish for, and that we have to get on it and pay attention to harm done. I've been aware for a long time of the harm done to the young user.

What is it now? The average age of porn exposure is nine or eight, something like that. And those kids are affected by it. To pretend it's not happening is a, I'm sorry, it has a profound effect. Maybe not every single time, but a large significant percentage of the time.

And it's funny, I just had this sort of off topic a little bit, but I had a conversation, I was on Tim Poole's show last week and I had a conversation with a couple of young men on that show and they're angry with the sort of lack of moral boundaries, let's say. They're like, I want some guidance. I want to know what's right and what's wrong.

Like, I'm a young person, help me make good choices, not just a free for all. And I feel like your campaign is sort of part of that process. Do you agree with me? Yeah, I mean, I do think it's raising a really important awareness in our understanding of what's proliferating today on the most popular porn sites in the world and the way that that

can be damaging. And it's not, you know, it's yes, it's illegal content, it's rape, but it's also depictions of rape, it's depictions of children. You know, teen was one of the most popular categories on Pornhub for so many years and the executives were counting to the dollar how much they were making on these categories that depicted and included underage abuse, like the teen, like old, young, like very young, minor and all these different kinds of tags and titles. But then you have, you know, things like choking and strangulation and other things

that are really proliferating and incest and whatnot. And some of this in the US, it may be legal, but kids are consuming this content and it's shaping their ideas about sex. It's shaping their understanding of what sexuality is and their template and it impacts them forever. And that is why I just think it's so important. This conversation couldn't be more important that we're protecting kids behind the screen and in front of the screen. And if you think your kid couldn't be subject to abuse

behind the screen, couldn't be one of the victims who's had their abuse immortalized on PornHub, think again, because today, one in seven, nine to 12 year olds has shared a nude image or video of themselves. And so much of this content that gets uploaded. That is child sex trafficking. That child can be actually in legal trouble

for having done so. And the child who receives it and then shows it to his friends each of those is a potential offense Yeah, so it's not just it's not just you know where a child could be raped by another individual a lot of this trauma and a lot of this that's getting uploaded and monetized online and again immortalized online forever Is self-generated and so I think think that, you know, every person that cares

about children and cares about issues of sexual violence and trafficking should care about this issue. And I think also just from the in front of the screen perspective, when people are consuming content like this, you know, often we hear that it takes them down a very dark road where they may have started in one kind of content and they got more extreme and they got more extreme and got younger and younger and eventually they ended up consuming actual child sexual abuse material. And that's a real concern as well.

That is what happens. That's the, I was going to mention that, that in porn addiction per se, there's a progressivity to it. And it gets into places where people, they need more and more arousal to get the same effect, like any drug. And it can go to terrible, terrible places

where you're, you know, I just don't even want to think about it. Well, Lila, thank you for joining me. I knew this would be interesting to our audience here. Again, let's wrap this up by you sort of giving us a call to action here. Absolutely, yeah. Go to the justicedefensefund.org website.

There you can purchase my book, Take Down That's the Story of the Fight, to hold PornHub accountable. And 100% of author proceeds go, are donated to this cause. You can sign the petition, join millions of others, join team Take Down, and let's go ahead and finish this job, whole Pornhub, fully accountable, shut it down, and then make sure that this stops

and is prevented across the internet on other websites in the future. And you know, in our audience, I think you heard a little bit from Caleb is concerned about having a knee-jerk reaction going so far that then you started restricting civil liberties. I don't think anything you've suggested gets near that and goods, it's all participate in this

and get to the right place. Lila, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. You got it. Now let's talk about who's coming. Jenny McCarthy in here tomorrow. I want to open with a little apology to her. There she is.

And is it, I think we have a guest on after Jenny as well. Is that right? I think Alice Amaro possibly. Alice Amaro, I believe she is on the list. I saw that as well. And listen, I'm just looking at your guys' comments. People were pretty active today on the rants and in the restream.

Susan, anything you saw that I should be commenting on? No, we're just batting bots. Batting bots. And Caleb, from your standpoint, anything as surprising or new or interesting now that Lila has been throwing the gauntlet down? I'm just surprised it's still such an issue. Like I actually thought photo DNA from Microsoft

was advanced enough to stop it. And I thought it wasn it wasn't like you couldn't just edit a video or an image and then it wouldn't catch it anymore. I that's the way I understood it is that the hash would still be maintained. That's a big problem, especially it's going to get worse with AI though. Like it's going to get much, much, much worse. Yeah, it's going to get worse. I warn every woman I know I tell them just just be ready because it's like I hear from a lot of you know the women that I know that they're afraid of oh someone is going to swap my face out into a porn photo and then spread that around and I'm like no no you need to be ready for not that. It's gonna be something created over in China overseas that leaks over here that makes a

whole website and collection in a second. Like it's just be ready for the fact that there's going to be explicit material faked with AI of everybody. It's going to be a really painful time for a little while. And then it's not going to matter to anyone because then there's going to be photos and videos of everybody generated.

Susan, that was your point. You said, she said one day everyone's going to have a porno and this is how it's going to have a porno. And this is how it's going to happen, it sounds like. Everybody does already. Yeah. It seems like it. I mean, we have Photoshop now and it's going to be nothing.

It'll be two clicks and there's a whole site made of any person's face. So just get ready. And Caleb, what do we do with the Epstein, before we wrap this up today, what do we do with the fact that I'm on the Epstein list and I'm dead behind the eyes according to our users? That's so boring. And I'm do with the fact that I'm on the Epstein list and I'm dead behind the eyes according to our users? How do I, how should I? It's boring. And I'm boring. Well, that's Emily. Well, the boring part is good.

Yeah. Boring is good. Caleb. Now I really want them to leak the list because if you're on it, who else is on it? It's going to be like Mother Teresa. It's going to be some popes on there. I'm on it. Yeah. I want to put Susan on it. I've decided.

I'm on it. Because then we can follow it. We can see where it goes. I'm rubbing mine cause it itches, not because my eyes are dead or because there's some code to somebody. This is how crazy you can get people. And so I'm using it as just an example of watch your cognitive distortions

cause they can really get the better of you. And, and, and then my other campaign is to give this time, give it a little breathing room to see if we can get to the truth somehow. All these things, and I agree with Tucker. I agree with what Tucker said about, we're tired of seeing the elites get away with everything all the time, that is disgusting to us.

And we are really tired of being lied to. And the fact that President Trump said he's going to do it and that it didn't happen, I get it, I get that. I mean, that's the first time he's really done that. It's true as far as we know. If it's for national security reasons, that's what presidents lie about. There is our list.

Kennedy coming on the 29th. Mama June, Mama June is on the list now. She's on the list. Yeah, that'll be fun. And Pumpkin's coming in with her. I haven't seen them in a long time. A lot of good guests coming up as we said and we'll see you tomorrow at two o'clock with the great Jenny McCarthy Ask dr

Drew is produced by caleb nation and susan pinsky as a reminder the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care diagnosis or treatment This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated

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