Ask Dr. Drew - I’m In The Epstein Files: Michael Shermer on Witch Hunts, Mob Hysteria & Truth w/ Dr. Paul Alexander on mRNA & Jorge Ventura on El Mencho Assassination – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 591

Episode Date: February 28, 2026

“I am in the Jeffrey Epstein files,” Michael Shermer, founder of Skeptic Magazine, recently revealed. “I did get an invite to the island, the even crazier story.” Despite his name appearing in the DOJ’s release of Epstein’s emails, Shermer says he never went to Little Saint James or committed any crimes. The leaked emails reference a Skeptic Magazine event that Epstein attended without Shermer’s knowledge. This nuance hasn’t stopped the fury of the internet mob: Shermer’s social media is filled with attacks by people who believe anyone who ever met or spoke to Epstein must be involved in his crimes. Michael Shermer is the Founding Publisher of Skeptic magazine, Executive Director of the Skeptics Society, and host of The Michael Shermer Show. He holds a Ph.D. in the history of science from Claremont Graduate University. Follow at https://x.com/MichaelShermer and read his latest book “Truth: What It Is, How to Find It, and Why It Still Matters” at https://amzn.to/3MOnoBW Dr. Paul E. Alexander is a clinical epidemiologist and evidence-based medicine specialist. He is a former Assistant Professor at McMaster University. He holds a PhD and with training in epidemiology and research methodology. Learn more at https://DrPaulAlexander.com and support him at https://www.givesendgo.com/drpaulalexander Jorge Ventura is a reporter for the Daily Caller News Foundation. He gained national attention covering civil unrest in 2020 and has reported extensively on the border crisis since 2021. He has produced investigative documentaries including “Cartelville, USA” and “Narcofornia.” Follow at https://x.com/venturareport 「 SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS 」 • STRONG CELL – If you want to feel more like your younger self, go to https://strongcell.com/ and use code DREW for 20% off. • AUGUSTA PRECIOUS METALS – Thousands of Americans are moving portions of their retirement into physical gold & silver. Learn more in this 3-minute report from our friends at Augusta Precious Metals: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/gold⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or text DREW to 35052 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠• FATTY15 – The future of essential fatty acids is here! Strengthen your cells against age-related breakdown with Fatty15. Get 15% off a 90-day Starter Kit Subscription at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/fatty15⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • PALEOVALLEY - "Paleovalley has a wide variety of extraordinary products that are both healthful and delicious,” says Dr. Drew. "I am a huge fan of this brand and know you'll love it too!” Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drdrew.com/paleovalley⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • VSHREDMD – Formulated by Dr. Drew: The Science of Cellular Health + World-Class Training Programs, Premium Content, and 1-1 Training with Certified V Shred Coaches! More at https://drdrew.com/vshredmd • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twc.health/drew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Executive Producers • Kaleb Nation - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kalebnation.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • Susan Pinsky - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/firstladyoflove⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Content Producer • Emily Barsh - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/emilytvproducer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted By • Dr. Drew Pinsky - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/drdrew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And more to get to today. We have three great guests. The general theme is the behavior of crowds. Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds is one of the classic books that addressed that issue. Michael Shermer has a new book called Truth. We're going to talk about truth and scientific method. He'll be in here shortly. We also have Jorge Ventura. At Ventura Report speaks at the U.S. border. After the death of the cartel leader, there's so much going on there. And how much of this? that can we rely on? And then Dr. Paul Alexander comes back. We're going to touch back, touch base with him. Again, we haven't heard from him a long time. And he has a give, send go. I'd like you all to pay attention to. But I'm anxious to hear whether or not his ideas

have evolved. I mean, so many things have been going on that Paul can address. We'll get to that. We'll get to Michael Shermer. And first, we're starting out with Jorge Ventura after this. Our laws as it pertain to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopaths start this race. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction. Fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor for a shit.

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Visit Medcan.com slash moments to get started. Cory Ventura is a reporter for the Daily Color News Foundation. He, of course, has been in the crosshairs since he began covering civil unrest in 2020. He has reported extensively on the border crisis since 21. He's produced investigative documentaries, including Cartelville, USA and Narcophonia. All worth checking out. You can follow him on X at Ventura Report. And if you haven't seen his report lately, I don't know how you have missed them.

He climbed right in the middle of it after the death of the, after the assassination of the cartel leader. Jorge, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me on. Pleasure. So I watched a lot of your stuff. And I had trouble understanding what was going on because so much of what we were seeing was dramatized. And you were trying to sort of go, okay, here's what. what's happening. I'm seeing this.

Rest the, otherwise the town's going, okay. What was the reality of the boots on the ground there in Mexico? Yeah, Dr. Drew, so as soon as the breaking news happened in Halisco, obviously on next, we started to see the viral images of violence. And I jumped on a plane and headed straight to Tijuana, Baja, California, region. And the reason why I went there is I did contact a few of my contacts who says that the cartels, even there, started to burn vehicles and start. blockades. And the reason why Baja

California is really important, it's an area that every day, millions of Americans visit every day from Tijuana, all the way to that Rosarito, Playa's. And actually, Dr. Drew, as soon as I cross into Mexico from the San Diego side, we got tipped off that the cartel was actually

burning a vehicle near the U.S. border wall. So we rushed to the scene, a document in that, and that's what you're actually seeing real-life footage there. This is right next to the U.S. border wall. So to me, it was clear the cartel was also trying to send a message not only to the Mexican government, but potentially also to the U.S. government.

We documented, as you see there, several of the OXO convenience stores were burned and targeted throughout Tijuana. There was a cold red in place. So many of the residents were encouraged to stay home. Some of the public service transit was cut off. And I think right now, the biggest takeaway is

Mexican President Kadei Shinebaugh is feeling that he impressed from President Trump to crack down on cartels. El Mentiono is a historic figure in Mexico. And just some of the details are also fascinating, knowing that the CIA, FBI were involved in providing that intel. But on the ground, though, Dr. Drew, we did see, like I said,

in that Tijuana, California, cartels react. A lot of the vehicles burning. I think we still have to see how things play out throughout the week. It's important to remember that Cartel-Halisco, Nova Henderson, they almost work like a franchise business. They essentially lend out their logo, the CNG logo, to local criminal factions throughout Mexico, and exchange office for extortion fees and control on the ground. So the burns we saw in Tijuana were the local factions connected to CGNG.

So it was interesting to see that so close to the U.S. border. And I'm guessing that what Trump probably said to the president of Mexico is, if you don't do this, we're going to do it. So we'd like to take care of business. Yes, I've been speaking with my sources in Mexico who are confirming that. Eventually, President Claudia Scheinbaum decided to react this way to avoid potential U.S. troops on Mexican soil. From my reporting and speaking to contacts, don't be surprised if at the end of this year we still see American troops in some type of capacity on Mexican soil. Claudia Shinebaum has already allowed HSI, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol, CIA drones in the Mexico. So we're getting closer to really that final solution where you see U.S. troops have.

actually on the ground, it's unclear exactly what the capacity would be, but expected later this year. He has said it's a war, so I mean, I'm guessing that's how he's going to treat it. Now, one of the topics that interested us was so many of the viral videos that were going around made it look like there was an out-and-out war on the streets. How much of that was nonsense? How much of that was just a brief flare? How much of it was intentional bots trying to whip up something? some of it some of that Dr. Drew

actually some of that Dr. Drew was actually what was true now what was about overplayed was that there was rumors online of a gunman at the Wallet of Hada airport now that's where we saw those viral images where all these travelers were essentially stampeding

each other that ended up being false it's actually pretty interesting the cartel while they did attack some civilians And some civilians were in the crossair, they weren't any surveillance kidnapped. No, as of the information that we have, no American tourists or foreigner were also attacked as well. It almost seemed like the cartel was sending a message to the Mexican government, but also knowing that if they attacked only a single American tourist in that Porto-Herita area,

that they could feel the full raft of the U.S. government. So while the violence was very real and it does impact everyday civilians, I mean, they had their transportation cutoff businesses, a tagged bomb. The cartel did stay away from kidnapping Mexican citizens and also American citizens, which I think is a key detail there. That tells me that the cartel fears the United States full raft that they did attack in the American tours. I got to say, I'm a little confused by going around and burning stuff, what that actually accomplishes for them other than signaling dissatisfaction.

I mean, what does that actually do unless they were, from our end, it looked like they're going to escalate something, which I think it's all settled down now, correct? No, it has. And actually, Dr. Drew, what I'm surprised about it, if you remember a few years ago when the Mexican special forces moved in to actually capture the son of El Chapo, that violence went on for several days where everyday citizens were actually getting killed and murdered. It got to a point where the Mexican government, remember, they released El Chapo's son. we thought we were going to see that same playbook actually in Alisco. But the fact that we didn't, that tells me that the cartel does feel that the United States government is pressuring on them. And I think that if they knew that they would attack the American citizens,

particularly at Puerto Vallarda, we would have seen some type of U.S. special forces on the ground. In a way, Dr. Drew, it's almost them feeling that they took in a loss. I think the most important thing now, and I've gotten disconfirmed with my. my sources is the next man up is the steps on Elvocchapo Juan Carlos Valencia Gonzalez. He's an interesting figure because he's an American citizen. He was born in Orange County, Santa Ana, California.

And actually a few years ago, I did a report on these cartel leaders. What they'll do is they'll get their wives or girlfriends pregnant, send them to the United States to have the babies here and essentially that's a dual citizenship. This is actually called it in the cartel criminal world. This is called narco juniors. Essentially, Juan Carlos could be the first narco junior that raises all the way to the top of the most powerful criminal enterprise, at least worth $20 billion. And the reason I'm worried, Dr. Drew is this man has such strong ties to Southern California. It would only take one call for them to either attack, you know, a public area with Americans or even kidnapping Americans in Southern California.

Well, that's what I wonder is, you know, especially with the border having been open as long as it was, is there, are there teams, are there sleeper cells? Is there something that can be activated in this country that, which is why I was sort of asking why the violence wasn't more systematic or escalating over time. It made me worry that they're planning something here. That's true. And I think the other key element here, Dr. and I have a bunch of information. because I've documented this over the years is CGNG strong ties to China over the Biden administration hundreds of thousands, if not even millions of Chinese nationals. And I was on the ground,

follow over my Twitter timeline, crossed illegally in the San Diego sector, meaning that those Chinese nationals were allowed to bypass two different cartels to reach the U.S. First of Sinolao-Cartel and Cartel-Hal-Halizco Nervaisianation. Some of my reporting is indicating that

The Mexican cartels have taken over completely the fentanyl industry in agreement with Chinese criminals. So then now that China and those Chinese nationals can now have the illegal black market business that is spiral all over the U.S., especially in Southern California and now the state of Maine and Oklahoma are seen it as well. So pay attention to the strong ties between CG&G and Chinese nationals because those sleeper cells could also be Chinese nationals that could be activated as well. The other thing I would love it if you would keep your eye on, which is that quietly, well, fentanyl is a huge problem. Don't get me wrong. But quietly, the really king ping drug that is driving people to the streets and keeping them there is methamphetamine. And my understanding is they're making it essentially with stuff you get in a car garage and they're doing it in Mexico.

And no one seems to be making an issue of it. Well, that drug is destroying people. You know anything about that? It's interesting. Actually, the pressure from the Mexican U.S. government on China, those chemical precursors are actually making essentially meth the new hot drug again, and it's getting crossed over. 90% of it, I think Americans still don't know this, but 90% of meth still coming in is through a legal port of entry.

It's not a guy, a cartel guy with a big bag of drugs hopping over a fence. It's a lot more complicated and corrupting that. But I still think Dr. Drew, pay attention to that China connection, fentanyl isn't going anywhere. It makes just way too much money. But cocaine and meth, if you actually look at the seizures, have absolutely skyrocketed. Fentanyl has actually a decrease there. So interesting little transversing on border. Yeah, it's going to be really interesting.

And it's very much whack-a-mole, which are they going to go after? So what is next? What are you concerned about? What are you reporting on? How do you understand what's going on between the U.S. and Mexico? I think what's interesting now is the next step is what does Claudia Shimbom do in terms of the rest of criminal cartels and exactly what will satisfy the Trump administration? I think why the reason we're also seeing kind of the rapid crackdown is because you also have Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who is very, very aggressive when it comes to any Latin American foreign policy. So right now, Shinebom's in a tough position politically.

She has to crack down on cartels, not only for the U.S., but for her own safety of everyday Mexican citizens. Mexican citizens are in this interesting moment while it's super unpopular for American troops to be on the ground. In my last conversation with a bunch of Mexican nationals while I was in Tijuana document the story, there is a growing sentiment of actually wanting the U.S. military to be more directly involved when it comes to cracking down on cartels. And for folks who don't know this, Tijuana itself, it's littered not only with migrants, but it's littered with Mexican nationals that have actually had to run away from their own hometown, essentially turning Mexican nationals into migrants into their own home country. I personally think, Dr. Drew, we're going to see at some point American troops on the ground in some type of capacity.

I think we could start to see the Department of War also get more aggressive when it comes to Mexican drone incursions on the border. In the past six months, there's been 600,000 drone. encouraging. So could we see Department of War with Pekesa start to blow up those drones on the board? So something to watch for. My angle for me, Dr. Drew, that I'm going to be focused here on U.S. soil, particularly with my reporting, is I'm still fascinated on this Mexican cartel, Chinese organized crime taking over the illegal marijuana industry and how they just flourish in all of these states. I was in Oklahoma. 99% of the illegal marijuana is in Oklahoma are now all tied to Chinese nationals.

So it seems that Mexican cartels have made some type of secret agreement there with the Chinese. And pay attention to that one because that's on U.S. soil involving human trafficking, violence, and much more. So is that primarily in states where cannabis is illegal or is it flourishing as well in these states where there is so-called legal cannabis? It's flooring where it is legal. All that black market marijuana is headed to states where cannabis is still illegal. I started my reporting on this in California. It spread all the way to Oregon. And that's when I started getting calls from a sheriff in Oklahoma saying,

hey, the Chinese have taken over here. We don't know what's going on. Went over to Oklahoma documenting that. And now, Dr. Drew, the state of Maine has been hit with another wave of this kind of Chinese organized crime that used to really be dominated by Mexican cars. partels, it seems that the Chinese have got the access to the illegal marijuana as long as they keep providing those chemical precursors to Mexican criminal organizations in back in Mexico. I'm surprised that people that are very concerned about the health effects of

cannabis and the sort of casual attitude everyone has about that drug aren't sort of promoting this issue as well. Is it something that the public is not yet caught on to or is there not enough reporting on it? I think it's both. To be honest, Dr. when you say illegal marijuana farm, I think people think two hippies listening to some Bob Marley smoking a joint. And that's not the picture at on. I think if I could just point out,

a lot of this marijuana, the chemicals that are being sprayed are illegal pesticides being stripped from China directly. When I started covering this issue, the illegal pesticides were coming strictly from Mexico. Now authorities are finding these illegal pesticides, and all the writing is in Mandarin. And that's the marijuana that's also being consumed by everyday Americans. Out of that marijuana is making it into legal marijuana shops as well. Just to get such a big issue, I also think, you know, this might just be a personal take.

But that President Trump kind of legalizing it even more making it easier could actually be a good thing for cartels and Chinese organized crime. So I want to make sure I heard you on that. A, what you said was if it were, if the banking were legalized and it was more easily be criminalized, that would undo some of this criminal market, the black market? Well, I've been talking to- I'm asking the question that way. Let me tell you, reason I'm asking the question that way, I keep hearing, oh, even though it's legal, there's still a huge black market.

I'm not sure that that's true. Well, the thing is when it makes it legal, the thing is that you still have other states where it's illegal. So there's still that black market kind of economy market for the. So it goes other places. Got it. The issue, first is like a state like California, if I could quickly, like I said, like a state like California, Dr. Drew, if you and I had an illegal marijuana

500 plans or whatever, in LA County busted us, if they can't find any evidence of human trafficking or weapons or anything like that, you and I get slapped with the misdemeanor. So why would we not start another operation? So the takeaway I got was essentially the car. So can now use the U.S. Constitution against U.S. authorities. Makes perfect sense. And then my last question to you is, are you're treading on some extraordinary grounds? You know, it's territory, let's say.

And are you in any danger? Are you anxious? Is your family advising you not to do this so much? Are people worried about you? Yeah, actually, Dr. Joy, I did announce that I was going to this Tijuana, Baja, California. and my phone exploded. My mom is a nicest Salvadoran woman in the world.

I think she called me threading me that she would murder me if I crossed it. Your new president is going to put her in prison. Yeah, she wants me to have a regular news job and sit behind the anchor desk, but that's just not my calling. I think the American people are also just hungry for this raw information on the ground.

Also with a powerful video, it really adds another element of storytelling. And so if anything, Dr. Drew, we're doubling down, no way we're slowing down any time. All right. Good for you. I have no doubt we'll talk again because to be a part of the traditional media is to be untrustworthy, frankly. People won't really really want to hear what you have to say the way they would with your guerrilla reporting. And you're down there immediately.

We're all following you. We're watching what you have to say. And you're well, you're deeply connected to the culture from having, did you say you grew up in Orange County? And, you know, this is, you know, this is your, this is your beat since childhood. Yeah, you know, I absolutely love it. I did. I think I'm only one of the few reports I did all four years also covering the border under the Biden administration. So I understand human trafficking, but also just even like the human story of what every day of these migrants went through.

And I think people really appreciate it. I also did, Dr. Joe, I did 18 straight days in Minneapolis during. kind of the spreading of cool good rights as well. And we're able just to provide a different angle that's not corporate media filtered. And I think that's what American people want more than ever right now. 1,000 percent. 1,000 percent.

And I congratulate you for doing that. And I'm going to express my personal gratitude because I follow you. And I thought, I've got to talk to this guy, see what's up. And I hope we can talk to you again soon because I know shit's going to go down and you'll be there. Yep. Exactly. I'm the guy.

So I'm just curious. Yes. Jorge, go Jorge. That's my way of Susan. Hello, Jorge. So right now, as it stands in Puerto Valladine and Guadalajas. Guadalajas. Yes.

I always say Guatemala and then Drew laughs at me. How is it for Americans down there? Are they trapped? Are they able to get back? Are they, you know, is it, I mean, from what we, see it looks like it's calm down but is it like can you just get to the airport and fly back or okay let him answer that and then we get a break yes yes so as of now uh this moment ardu it's finally safe for americans to get out actually started as of as a yesterday they could

finally um fly but if you're an american get out like now stay here so that's my biggest listen i i worry about not just down there but here too so entourage ventura report on x anywhere else we want people to go? Yeah, Jorge Ventura TV on Instagram. We have a lot of behind the scenes, but on X is where we're breaking the news, always in real time, and we're normally on the scene pretty quick as well.

Oh, you're there instantly, so thank you for that. We'll talk soon. Thanks, Dr. Drew. All right. After the break, Dr. Paul Alexander comes back. Stay with us. I'm a physician, and I'm always watching out for products that can

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Again, that is Dr. Drew.com slash V-Sreadmd-M-D. It wasn't all Dr. Drew or anything. Why would I screw myself? What am I, Dr. Drew? You've been using that strong cell, and I swear to you, it helped me with my jet lag. And I'm always looking for you to raise those NAD levels to improve the oxidative state of our metabolism. And it seems that strong cell is yet another

thing to add to armamentarium. Susan has been taking it. She's noticing something but was that Susan? You said it gave you energy? I just noticed it helped my jet lag. So in any event, check out strong cell.com slash drew. Coming up, Dr. Paul Alexander, clinical epidemiologist, evidence

based physician's medicine specialist, former assistant professor at Masters University. COVID evidence synthesis consultant to the World Health Organization, senior advisor on COVID policy at HHS, PhD with graduate training and epidemiology and research methodologists at literally the highest level,

maybe one of four people that's able to do the kind of analysis that Dr. Alexander is trained in. He's can be followed at DR Paul Alexander.com. Paul, welcome back. Thank you very much, Dr. Jew for having me again. So, you are your team. What has changed? Yeah, I, I, I,

I want to send people to your give-send go page and update us on what has happened with you that has led to that. Well, I mean, the GIFS and Go page is to ask for any kind of amongst, what I use my substack as the base, but amongst followers and stuff because I have a mass of following

over the years, the last four or five years, six years related to COVID, both in Canada and the United States. actually internationally. And well, the long and short of it is that several of us who stood up at the beginning of this disaster

in January, February, March of 2020, you could track our careers from then. You could see that several of us took a major hit in terms of our employment, in terms of our reputations. We were sland. and smear, some taken into court, various things. And I, for one, I had a position at the World Health Organization

when I took on the Trump administration's position at HHS as a senior advisor. Just so the listener would understand what RFK is doing today at HHS, his job is what Alex Hezor did in president. Trump's first term, I reported to EASR and Caputo, Azar then being the HHS secretary of Kennedy. So I held that position and I lost my position at World Health and I lost two additional consultancies as well as my academic appointment at university because of my work with President Trump, I mean, it was told to me bluntly that at that point, and well, it still is today, that many particularly on the left, the rhinos, etc., they were so averse to Trump that anyone who worked with him in any capacity, they were just marked for career destruction.

So for several of us, it was very difficult, especially when the Democrats took power in 2020. they actually came after us. And so it was hard to get employment and to transition. It was almost as though we were told normally in our capacities, we could transition to like a key street in some consultancy position relatively easily, go back to academia. But it wasn't so for us. This was a unique situation, particularly because we worked in the Trump administration.

And it has been widely. why it has been difficult for persons like myself, and I'll be as blunt as I can, those of us who have maintained the pushback against what happened in COVID, particularly still raising questions as to the MRNA vaccine and the reported harms, not just reported, like real harms,

the questions are still abound. those of us who continue to push back, we cannot move forward in terms of inter the administration. So I have been told in, I mean, let's be, you know, we having a blunt conversation, and that's what I appreciate talking to you, Drew.

When President Trump won the second term, I was immediately contacted and I had direct conversations with with Bobby Kennedy Jr. about joining the administration in an advisory role. I dealt with the White House directly multiple times. I had interviews. They did the vetting process and they said, well, we are recommending you again for a senior advisor role at HHS. Just wait because the vetting is a little slow because of, remember, they had the assassination attempt. So they told me everything is very, very slow.

and they're looking, they're just going through everything with a fine-tooth comb. And then, you know, it's a new administration, so everything is a liturgy. That went on and on and on, and nothing had materialized. And I realized that it came back to me,

particularly at the RNC. I remember that persons like yourself, even though you stood with President Trump, that's the unique situation. I defended him to him one, and I still defend him to him, too. Because you are, you are such an advocate against the COVID response

and the scientific questions are still a boundary with the vaccine, we're certain issues. You are kind of like a toxic person to the administration. And so much so that, you know, it has curtailed my career so that many people that have sent out my resume too have come back to me and say,

Paul, you need to send your resume out to people like us stripping away any mention of Trump, any mention of your work at the U.S. government, any mention at HHS, et cetera. So it's a really difficult position for people like us because, I mean, some of them work at TWC, right? I have worked at TWC, great company, TWC. Help, I still advocate for

TWC and I still advocate for its products and for the organization. Some of, many of us who work for TWC are in my position. These are people who are the top levels of their career, top, top, top global scientists, yet struggle because because they are scientists from the,

they're not just people who accept the norm. They raise questions. They ask questions. They're publishing away trying to unravel the issues properly. Yet because of that, we cannot get a fair shake because it's almost as though we have to be silent. Two things occur to me. One is something that I saw Musk tweet like yesterday, which is that we don't live in a democracy. We live in a bureaucracy.

And you were one of the first people to alert me how self-righteous and autonomous the swamp bureaucracy is. That you all that maybe ask you to tell the story again today because it stays with me to this. I just, I just, that was where one of the, one of the many moments during COVID when the scales fell from my eyes. But the other issue is the witch hunt. Everybody's radioactive. You said you are involved with Trump, therefore you're radioactive. You were mentioned in the Epstein files, therefore you're radioactive. This is insanity.

I'm not even sure in whatever it was, 1620 in Salem, when Massachusetts, they were quite this crazy. They at least tried to be systematic in what they were doing. We are absolutely beat that shit out of our minds with our hysterias. What do you say to maybe tell that story about what you, alert at the State Department that one day? Well, I mean, I learned so many things. I mean, what was profound is when I arrived at the HHS, Washington and America was basically shut down.

So you can imagine a building that has sub offices for CDC and IH FDA, especially during COVID. So Fauci, Brooks, Hahn, Redfield, they all had to work at the HHS with me. But you need to understand this for a building with about maybe 5,000 employees. The only employees were us who were working for the Trump administration in terms of the response. They are the task force. I at the HHS.

And remember, operation was up speed. The entire COVID response was run out of HHS on the seventh floor, one floor above my office. Actually, Madonna had this office there also, doing it. its experimentation with the MRNA bringing out their vaccine, their Moderna vaccine. And we are told daily that all of our support, any administration, anybody in health and human services, there was no one. Everyone was working from home, but their jobs will support us as a scientist and as people running COVID response.

Yet they would tell us, you will get nothing from us. Zero. No help, not even to get a code to operate the photocop here, nothing, not a piece of paper. So we were, do you use the word bad shit? I could tell you that what Alex Azar and Michael Caputo and they were running the response we're facing was insanity because we were trying to run the response for Trump, report to the White House at HHS building, which is a. is just so brutally opposite the capital. Yet with no support, and every single federal employee, most of them still were from the Obama administration, they were totally against President Trump,

and they would tell it to you in your face. And I remember one day President Trump sent word to HHS that he wanted us to come to his hotel in Washington, D.C., to have a drink, because there were some major things we were working on and we were just 24-7 when he said, why don't the group come? So everyone on the COVID response, right?

So we went to the Trump Tower, to Trump Hotel. And I marveled at the first time I was there. And, you know, actually I was there. Dr. Scott Atlas was with me also. And we were just sitting around in the lobby and we were talking to different people. And I remember there was high-level people from across the government.

It was a State Department guy, and we were just talking, so he wanted to know about what exactly we were doing to the pandemic response, and I was asking him what he did. And it became clear to me that he slanted more towards Democrat side, but really, really engaging, nice,

I would even say America-loving state official. But he told me something, you know. He tried to explain to me that President Trump and the administration, that the bureaucracy, the deep state is real, as he explained to me, the administrative deep state.

And he basically told me that President Trump is just visiting here. He's just visiting and he will be gone shortly. Basically, he told me, or Muslim was paraphrasing that we run things, we run America. We, not the president.

and he's just a visitor. And I began to understand America and Washington and how things are run after that conversation because between my own experiences at HHS and trying to get by, it was stunning how

I would have to say this. Drew, Dr. Drew, I tell people it this way. We are very, very lucky as Americans, maybe the world, because America really set the tone. But I'm speaking as a scientist, evidence-based medicine, specialist, epidemiologists, really didn't deal with a Nipar virus with a 50-8% mortality or Ebola or hemorrhagic fever or Rift Valley fever. We dealt with something to turn out to have 0.0, maybe 0.9% mortality rate, infection fatality rate.

Had we dealt with something with a heavy mortality burden, we could have gotten wiped out in America because we are very lucky that this was something that was benign. Whatever this was, yes, it hurt some of our highest vulnerable. No doubt something caused serious pulmonary distress. But whatever it was turned out, so benign because President Trump, But President Trump really did try. I have to tell you, I have a lot of reservations about a lot of things.

I don't agree with everything he does. But he did try and turn one. He really, really wanted to save lives. And I would have to say that he pushed back and the hampering that he got against all of us, thank God it turned out to be so benign. Because had it been reckless or lethal, we would not have been able to. to cope because we who were running the response, us at the HHS, at NIH, FDA, we were totally blocked in every which way we turned. So if it was very little, America would have suffered really

millions of debt. So we- Let me restate this. They'll be I want to restate what you're framing, which is that this deep state, which you, one of the many, again, insights that came out of COVID that I'm grateful for, that your story opened myas to a lot of stuff, that direction. What you were saying is they were so interested, and your life right now is the product of their behavior. In fact that they've come for you now, they were going for him, they've now come for you, and their recalcitrance was so severe that at the time when they really did not know that this was a relatively benign virus, they were willing to sacrifice.

the lives and well-being of the populace here in the United States by blocking you and your team's ability to work to fight this virus. Excellent how you said it, Dr. Drew. In other words, we were so hampered. We weren't successful. The response was not a successful response because it was damaged every which way. What we were. was successful at us, we dodged the bullet. The fact that it was whatever was released, were intentional or by accident, whatever was out

there, thank God, it wasn't bad, because we would not have been able to respond. We had nothing in place. They wouldn't let us have it in place. Well, Paul, tell them once more, we've got to wrap this up. It's a very interesting. It's a further refinement of what you told me last time

that I found so disgusting, which was that this deep state, an unelected mob was in charge and felt they should be in charge. That is disgusting. Thankfully, I think more people are becoming aware of that. It's sort of being at least somewhat defanged. But tell people where they should go to support you. Well, I mean, I still write my substack daily.

It's called Dr. Paul Alexander COVID news. So you can still go to my subsection, Paul Alexander at COVID News.com, but I also set up a GIFENGO page for anybody willing to lend any support. And I think at the bottom of your site here, has a GivesENGO, it's a URL, givsengo.com forward slash Dr. Paul Alexander.

I mean, any kind of support, any help, helps me and, you know, to continue my fight. But I am probably 10% of you, Dr. Drew, in my reach. I would have to say. And I also, if we're ending this segment, I want to say thank you very much for what you do with the wellness company as well as more importantly what you do with your show because many, many people listen to your words. And I would plead with even my own supporters at my own.

substand. Please follow Dr. Drew and support him. Support his show and support his ventures, please. Very kind to say so, but more importantly, I want to thank you. Every time you come in here, it's enlightening, and no doubt we'll talk to you again very soon. Thank you very much. Dr. Paul Alexander, everybody. Coming up, Michael Shermer. More of our audience is taking health and wellness into their own hands, and they're doing it with the wellness company. For a discount on the best-selling product, and everything on their website, for that matter, go to Dr. Drew.com slash TWC.

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There's an excitement that comes with doing these kinds of workout that kind of sustains you through the day. It's exhilarating. It's not working out hours in the gym. It's not running on a treadmill forever. It's not killing yourself with diet. It's these are all very reasonable recommendations. Just got to follow it.

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And I'm taking this every day even when I travel. It's fatty 15. Michael Shermer, founding publisher of Skeptic Magazine, executive director of the skeptic society, skeptics society. Hosted the Michael Shermer show, he taught critical thinking at colleges, 30 years, was a scientific American columnist for 18 years. Ph.D. in the History of Science from Claremont Graduate University. Follow Michael at Michael Shermer, S-H-E-R-M-E-R.

The new book is called Truth. And it is an encyclopedic examination of truth from Michael's perspective, which I loved. Michael, welcome to the program. Wait a minute. Not just my perspective. It's the absolute truth. Come on. But it is your, but what I liked about it was your march to truth. You know what I mean? There's many discussions about truth out there, as you know, and you bring them into your analysis, but you do it in your own fashion. I thought it was interesting. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I try to do that. I mean, my whole life has been spent trying to know what I should believe.

and I don't want to believe things that have to be believed in to be true. It would be nice if they're actually true, you know, like Philip K. Dick's famous line, reality is that which still exists even if you stop believing in it. So that's when I'm after. Some things are fairly easy. Some of the physical and biological sciences are fairly clear, much harder on a lot of the social sciences. So you have to keep an open mind. My approach is very Bayesian.

That is you put a percent likelihood of a claim being true between 1% and 99%. never zero percent or 100 percent because we're not, we're not, you know, omniscient. We are fallible. So all of us could be wrong about something. And, you know, your previous guest, Paul, there, you know, on the pandemic, you know, early in 2020, say January through May or June or so, we didn't really quite know. But by the fall of 2020, you know, we had some degree of confidence that, you know, certain populations were more susceptible than others and that children and school age kids,

probably could go back to school by the fall. So what bothered me about all of that was the great confidence given by scientists, medical experts, and, you know, the CDC and so on, policymakers. What I thought was much more confident than we really knew and that they were, you know, given as pronouncements about masks and vaccines and social distancing and school closures and so on. I mean, I live in Santa Barbara. They closed the beaches. I mean, I just couldn't believe it.

The parks, the hiking trails. Well, they were arresting people. arresting people for going out on a surfboard by themselves. And if you remember, if you remember when they opened the beaches, you could stand on the beach. You couldn't lie down. This is the insanity we were into. It was so insane. But it's Joe Freiman, who's one of the researchers that reexamined the Pfizer papers, said it this way.

And I think you'll like it. He said, look, good clinicians, good scientists have rational, uncertainty. It's a rational uncertainty at all times, which is the Bayesian method you're describing. We had moved into a period of irrational certitude. Certitude is irrational by its nature. Yeah, why could they just say, look, we're not too sure about the mass thing, for example. This week, this is what we're recommending for the next like two weeks. We'll get back to you. If the evidence changes, we'll change your mind. I think the average person would go, yeah, okay, I get that. you know, I'll take that into considerate.

Rather than, you know, the science is settled. This is what we know for sure. And then, you know, two weeks later, we change our mind. We'll hang on. You know, so between that, you know, a tremendous loss of confidence by the public in policy makers, politicians, medical experts, and so on. And then on the other side, the Academy has always been a source of great respect for the discovery of original knowledge. But universities and colleges now are really taking a big hit with their endorsement of trans and DEI and all the kind of far-left, woke progressive politics. It's become clear to, I think, centrist people, people that don't really have a political interest in scientific issues, that why should I trust these people that say, you know, men can get pregnant when, you know, I know they can't.

So what are they talking about? Why would I believe them when they pronounce about climate change or, you know, nuclear. power or anything. And so, you know, I'm worried about one reason for the book is to say, you know, we really need to get back to trusting our institutions, the media, universities and colleges, medical institutions and so on. What went wrong and what can we do to correct it? Let's start talking a little, chipping away at the topic of mass formation and the extraordinary

popular delusions and the madness of crowds. Prouds seem to be a particular version of the human experience, a particular state of being that humans enter as a result of being in a mob. I believe there's certain pre-existing

personality characteristics that makes mob formation more likely. That's sort of what I've observed. But they've come after you, really. First, tell me what happened to you? On which, I forget. There's been many. Caleb, you said there's some bots, I guess,

that they've been organized to come after your book. They've organized to sort of talk about how crap of your book is or something. There's no reason that I can see. Variety of stuff going on. Oh, that, yeah. Well, so like the first interview I gave for my truth book was with W. NYC. And the Brian Lear was the host name.

I didn't know anything about. Apparently, he's far left. And so we just did the standard stuff about the book. And then he went to the phones. And, you know, there's Mabel from Trenton. And she's like, you know, I'm a lifelong Democrat and I don't like what's happening to the country under the current administration. But my own party has been lying to me. You know, they told me that, you know, that women can become men and men can be pregnant.

And I just, I'm just disgusted about this. And then I said, yeah, me too. And then this host is like, what? Oh, my God. No, no. And then he kind of ends the interview and then he, unbeknownst to me, he went to the phones and said,

if you're unhappy about what Schumer said, call us up and let him have it. And they did. And I wasn't even on there to defend myself. So that was kind of funny. But that's the way it goes. What was even worse is this is what I noticed? It's funny, but mobs scapegoat and they can become dangerous.

They can develop a blood loss. I mean, whether it's, you know, 1939 Germany or 1620, Massachusetts, or what's been going on in our country through multiple, seems like multiple incarnations lately. This mob formation is humans at their worst and it's dangerous. Well, okay, so the underlying foundation of that is none of us live in a vacuum where we're just by ourselves. We live in communities, families, groups, clans, tribes, political parties, religions,

and so on. You know, there's no such thing as being isolated. So we offload much of what we think we know about the world to other people. There's a lot of research on this. If you ask people like undergraduates, do you accept Darwin's theory of evolution? They go, yeah, yeah, sure. And then you ask them to explain it. They really can't explain it.

Or what's NAFRA? You know, I'm for NAFRA. I'm against NAFRA. What is it? I forget, you know. So most of what we know about things, we just sort of offload it to other people, to institutions and so on. You have to do that simply because who has time to fact check everything.

So, you know, we kind of, there's this theory called default to truth. We tend to believe what other people tell us. Because, again, who has time to fact check everything? So somebody tells me about their military background and they were in Vietnam or whatever. I don't have time to call the Army and ask if this guy was actually a soldier. So by the time he gets to a political election, when people start checking, you know, then it turns out he lied or whatever. But most of the time, we're not that gullible.

It's just that we have to trust the group. So like back in 2010, I did a remake of classic psych experiments with Chris Hansen from NBC, Dateline NBC. So we did Milgram shock experiments and the smoke in the room where we had people filling out a forum to join our TV show. And everybody just kind of went along with a mob. But when you're watching it, you're thinking, well, of course they went along with the mob because that's what we do. We just sort of offload, well, the expert, you know, I'm in this NBC building. There's a director there. He's not going to make me do something really evil, is he?

No, of course. Right. So you kind of just trust people. And, you know, it does kind of break down, too. I mean, 70% of people are sort of in the middle. 20% are, you know, true believers and 10% are like, hey, what the hell's going on here? This is something is wrong. So there is sort of a pattern to how people respond to those sorts of things.

And Drew, yeah, I want to get into a little bit of the reads of the book, not too deep. Go ahead, finish your thought. Sorry, the thing that we were talking about earlier was what I had noticed right around the time that we had just booked you, Michael, which was the day that your book had come out and you had just done that NPR interview. and then I went to go look up your book on Amazon and there was only one review and it was one star review despite the book rising up the charts

and it was because one person had heard your interview disliked what they heard in the interview and left you a bad review even though the book had literally just come out there was no possible way they could have reviewed it was a group of activists that go and target and try and kill your sales

ridiculous. They do that to me yes well and I'm not even I'm a libertarian like you Dr. Drew I'm not even a conservative, but yet if you're not far, today, if you're not far left, you know,

this is the lead, Steve Pinker calls the left pole. You know, anything to the right of the far left pole is considered conservative. Well, come on. You know,

that's just, that's just gone too far. So it's Nazi. No, it's, or you're a Nazi. Extreme right or something. Extreme right and Nazi.

Oh, fascist. You're a fascist. You're a fascist. Yes. That's right. Yes. Yeah. So again,

you know, the purpose of the book is, let's get back to trust our institutions to building trust in the media and the academy, colleges and universities. And we can get there. We just have to get, just forget the politics, drop the politics. You know, in the moment this, you know, the science is settled. The science has never settled.

I mean, even the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Evolution, it could all be modified. I mean, I'm pretty confident in those, but you never know. This James Webb Telescope is finding things that shouldn't exist in the early universe. You know, maybe the Big Bang theory and all that. that needs inflationary theory and all that. Maybe it needs some tweaking. Again, we should keep an open mind on what's actually true. True with a small T, right? Confirmed to such an extent it would be rational to offer our provisional assent is how I define it. Provisional. Right now, today, this is what we know. Tomorrow, it may be different. Keep an open mind.

Sticking with the witch trial sort of analogies on the mob action, you had another mob action for your name showing up in the Epstein files. Just being there was enough to make you radioactive. This is the part, this is so irrational. But tell me about that. There was a guy, yeah, in fact, I was at Ohio State University last week for a debate, was with Ross Douthin from the New York Times on science and religion. And there was some guy posting stuff about Shermer's longtime association with Jeffrey Epstein. And then you look at his source in this little online thing. The source was me. It was my, It was my own podcast episode saying back in 2017 was the 25th anniversary of Skeptic Magazine. So I hired this PR firm in New York to make a kind of a big deal about it.

So we get some media attention for the magazine. And they go, well, you need to bring some celebrities. And I said, well, I know Stephen Pinker and Richard Dock is. No, no, real celebrities. I'm like, okay, I know Deepak Troper. He's the only real celebrity I know, right? They go, oh, yeah, Deepak would be great. And he lives in New York.

So he came and we had a big, big time. And he bided a bunch of his friends. I'd be noticed to me until two weeks ago, a couple of his friends, included Jeffrey Epstein and some of his young female associates, I guess. And so there it is. You know, there's emails between Deepak and Jeffrey Epstein with Epstein saying, hey, I'm coming to your event with that Shermer guy. And I'm bringing a couple of my friends.

Like, oh, okay. Great. So that was pretty wild. Wow. That's crazy. But this guy, you know, a long-time associate. I never even met him. Trouble.

Yeah. Crazy. No, it's not. Okay. But still, though, the fact that you have to defend yourself, this is the mob business, this is the witch trial. This is the gratification that narcissists get forming and scapegoating. It's narcissism at its core. They take their aggression, they collectivize it as a group, and they focus it on one at a time.

And you end up with guillotine. That's how you get guillotine. It's a profoundly pathological behavior, even though it has. as its foundation, as you said, in tribalism. You know, you said you did a show or a presentation on science and religion. You know, I thought Pope Paul had a really interesting encyclical that always has stayed with me about trying to, he really was a very bright guy, the popular Pope Paul, the Polish gentleman. and he was trying to come up with a systematic way of reconciling faith and science, essentially. And he said, faith and science are the two wings upon which man ascends to the contemplation of truth.

I thought that was a lovely, a lovely statement. Yes, well, he was, this was in the early 90s, the cyclical said, it's okay to believe in the theory of evolution, Catholics. You don't have to do this crazy Young Earth creationism. stuff. You know, this is what the biologists are describing, you know, life. And we get the soul and the scientists get everything else. Okay. So I was happy with that. It's like, good. Yeah. Let's get rid of the Young Earth creation stuff because that's crazy. But, you know, but general, so I have a couple chapters in the book about religious truths, which I do think are in a different bin than empirical

scientific truth. So when somebody says, you know, I believe in, okay, I'll give an example. So when the preacher says the church has a parking lot at the back, you can go check yourself. But when the preacher says, you know, the father and son and holy ghost is three and one, one and three, you know, and so on the Trinity, how's anybody going to fact check that? I mean, you just either believe it or you don't. You know, and we're Catholics, we believe in the Trinity, that's it. Or we don't believe because we're this other faith. You know, I think that's in a different category. There's no, like, experiment we're going to run and go, oh, the Trinity is the right one.

No, it's the unity, not the Trinity. And so that's where the unification comes and all that stuff. Isn't that what Kirkegaard was deeply examining, that very issue? I think if you drill down to the bedrock of epistemology and ask, what can we really know about the ultimate truth about things? You end up at an abyss. And you either leap across under faith or you don't. And there's no right answer there.

right and I do address that with consciousness, free will, and determinism, why there's something rather than nothing or the God question. I think ultimately what Huxley meant when he coined the term agnostic is that it's not knowable. Not that I'm waiting, I'm keeping an open mind, it could go this way, could go that way. It's not knowable by science. So you just do what you need to do for your life and nobody could say that's the right answer or the wrong answer. And I want to get deeper into what we mean by science in a second. But I, One thing I noticed in the book is that you're, I think you're definitely Bayesian. I think Aristotle is more the zone you fall into.

But you didn't do much with epistemology, excuse me, with phenomenology. Hmm. Right. Well, you know, if you mean by internal truths, you know, where we can discover things, is that what you mean? You know, phenomenology is saying, phenomenology is essentially saying we can't know the truth, but we can know experience. And then they try to break that down. I mean, they don't end up in a great place. You know, it's, if you really read, what's the guy that became a Nazi, I think, Heidegger, He ends up saying, well, time,

time is something that is something that's made of horizons of something that are something. It's like he ends up nowhere. So, so it's kind of interesting. I do deal with some of this in the discussion on personal internal truth. So like if you tell me, you know, I've discovered this spirit world that exists. And if you take the, and I ask you, well, show me and you say, well, if you take the ayahuasca like I did, you'll see these spirit beings. Like, well, but, you know, if I think the ayahuasca, then it's still in my head, right? I want to be able to show you without the ayahuasca.

Here it is. Here's the evidence and so on. You know, like the aliens, do they really exist? Well, show me. It's still a phenomenon. It's still stuck inside. Yeah. It's not a lot of time. So it's not that it discounts it because maybe it's true for you. You say, well, I had this experience. It changed my life. And that's my truth. Okay. I respect that. But the moment you say, and by the way, you should believe also, and here's the reasons, I say, okay, time out. Now you're telling me there's reasons. What are those reasons? And why should I believe it? Why is your argument better than that other guy's argument or whatever?

So you get in the book into the scientific method and what a delicate instrument it is. And you brought up the null hypothesis in the book, which I was delighted to see. And I believe that most scientists are not even trained in these foundational principles, this delicate instrument that probes reality to try to give us pieces of information about what it's made up of that we can sort of understand it better with this probe that is outside. of our brain, but gives us information. Talk about that. And then you mentioned, we mentioned during the break before we, the mic's heated up here,

that you had spoken to Brett Weinstein about this a little bit, who has been very concerned about the fact that the scientific method is not being taught. Yeah. So the flaws that people like Brett and others have pointed out about science and the replication crisis that started in 2010 and how a good percentage of psychological, social science, and medical science research is probably not replicable or hasn't been replicated. Maybe should have never been published. But all those errors were found out by other scientists working in the field or most often

grad students and whistleblowers working in these labs showing that, you know, this was fake or this was incorrect or errors were made here, that sort of thing. So the method still works, I think. You know, the idea that peer review is broken. Yeah, okay, there's some flaws in. it, you know, so we, you know, P hacking and file drawing and those sorts of things that have been worked around now. But what's the alternative? I mean, the alternative is nothing. I'm going to go on some popular podcast and present my theory of everything and, you know, just hope somebody

listens. Well, that's not a good, reliable, systematic method of determining what's true. We have to have some method of the other experts in the field that listen to you. So my example is I get these theories of everything. People send me these, you know, 100-page articles they've written. and you know, Einstein was wrong and Newton was wrong and Stephen Hawking was wrong and I've worked out this theory of the universe. Okay, but you're not the only one. There's like a hundred of them. You know, how do I know which is the alternative theory is the correct one? Or maybe they're all wrong. There has to be some method to get at it. And when I say, you know, why don't you submit it to a peer review journal? They go, they won't accept it or they'll steal my ideas or the peer review system is broken. Okay, this is the problem with outsiders. The outsider may be right, but how would I know? You know, I trust the authority. the experts, you know, somebody like a Kip Thorne at Caltech, I can call up and go, hey, Kip, there's this crazy theory. You know, what do you make of this? And, you know, then he'll tell me. But, you know, I happen to have that connection. Most people don't.

So, you know, we rely on the peer-reviewed system to work, even if it's not perfect. It's better than nothing. You spent a lot of time on college campuses. Do you agree with Brett Weinstein that the scientific method is not being taught or at least not being taught carefully or properly? I would agree that it would be good if more students learned how to think about these claims. I would actually push it back even earlier to high school or even middle school. And just use fun examples like Bigfoot UFOs and aliens conspiracy theories, things like this that everybody loves. It's fun stuff. But how do you know Bigfoot's not real?

How do biologists decide when a new species has been discovered? And it's pretty simple. You know, you'd have to have a type specimen. Here it is. Here's the body. You can't show up at a biology conference to go, look, I have this photo. I snapped at three in the morning when I was camping. And if you kind of squint and use your imagination in this out of focus photo, you'll see the kind of outline of a body.

Okay, biologists are not going to accept that as reliable evidence. They're going to go, no, sorry, you've got to bring in a specimen, right? I think middle school kids would completely understand this. I think we got to get away from using our senses per se. and we have to use the probe of the scientific method. The idea, I mean, naturalist, you know, natural historians, so to speak, yeah, they relied on categorizing things and, you know, looking at things. But the eyes or the smell, whatever, these are very limited instruments.

This is a limited instrument. And we're trying to, we're trying to exceed what this has evolved for. I'm pointing at my brain. It's evolved for a very limited purpose. but it has applications well beyond its evolutionary purpose. And the scientific probe is one of those ways. And the, you know, and numbers are really, you know, you mentioned in the book you talk about probabilities.

Talk a little bit about that. Right. Okay. So we'll get away from the simpler explanation. So like example I use in the book, you know, does a college education pay off to students? Well, what do you mean by payoff? Well, I mean, lifetime earnings.

Yes. college students that get a bachelor's degree make more money in a lifetime than those who don't have a bachelor's degree. Okay, but then when you actually drill down on it, but what's the cause? It may not be the college education. It may be that intelligent parents who have more intelligent kids because IQ is inherently, highly heritable, are more likely to send their kids to college, and it's the IQ that matters. Or maybe it's the growing up in a two-family, a two-parent household in a nice neighborhood, and it's not the IQ, it's the better neighborhood, or it's the parents. You know, there's half a dozen different variables that could be at work there.

So the peer review system in which you have a collection of experts who know how to do correlational studies and how to infer causation from correlation like that and to control for different variables, there you do get a kind of a collective expertise. They may be wrong, but that kind of, you know, kind of not consensus science, but, you know, this is what the experts think now. You know, we have to do that. So on the probability question, the problem with probabilities is that we're not well wired to understand the randomness of what actual chance looks like. So my favorite example of this from the book is when Steve Jobs introduced the shuffle feature of the iPod that'll randomly play the songs from your playlist.

People complain that certain songs came up more than other songs. But in fact, that's what randomness looks like. It looks clustered. So Jobs had to have his engineers reprogram the shuffle feature. to make it less random, so it felt more random to the listener. So that's kind of a fun example. The stars in the sky. Random, random events segregate non-randomly.

That's what you're describing. That's exactly right. And they come in little clusters. And there actually are statistical tools to make sure they're a sufficient clustering to be sure you're looking at real random. But it's interesting. Most conspiracy theories are very random. Go ahead. Finish that thought.

Yeah, most stuff that happens in life is very random, but our brain finds patterns that may not be there. That's exactly right. And I'm hearing, I missed this, I guess, in the book, that you're really, I mean, you were talking about the nature of the truth, but I feel like you ultimately were arguing for the canon of truth and the restoration of academia as an instrument. in terms of creating that canon.

Is that accurate? Well, yeah, canon. I don't like that word canon because it has a religious overtone to it. Or, again, this is the settled science because science has never settled. There's no canon. There should not be a canon in science. Well, but whenever there's academia, you think, when academia is involved, I think that that's what they're establishing as a canon.

That's how they work. Unfortunately, they do that. Yes, they do that. That's true. But, you know, I'd like us to get away from that. This is, you know, what we think at the moment, right? Provisional truth. Oh, yeah.

Listen, that I, because you're, because you're advocating strongly for a real understanding of the truth, not, not a, not a superficial understanding. And, but I miss that you were wanting the, the, the experts to be reinstated. But you make a pretty good case for it. So, good. You probably know, I think you do know Jay Bottacharya, right? I mean, you know, this guy was calling early on. in the fall of 2020, come on, the Great Barronton Declaration. Reopen the schools, you know, and so on.

And it's like, and he was called a fringe epidemiology. He gave it as a business card. This is fringe epidemiology. Like, come on. He has two PhDs. It's Stanford University. I mean, come on. That's what I mean, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But do you remember the last time, do you remember we have met in person, right? You've said we were both libertarians. Is that what you were basing that on? Yeah, Freedom Fest. We were at the Freedom Fest. Susan, do you remember this?

We were, we did some sort of mock trial that somebody had dreamed up and I was the judge, I think. We were in South Dakota. Or maybe I was the judge and you were the trial. I don't know. I can't remember. It was rapid, what's the name of the city we were in? Susan, help me. Oh, rapid cities.

Was it? No, it was a really interesting event. Yeah. Not really city. It's near there. Any of it. It's a pleasure to reconnect with you. Congratulations on the book.

Go ahead and make your final pitch for people to read it. Oh, well, skeptic.com is my website for the magazine and truth can, of course, be found there. Autograph copies or just go to Amazon. Just order it there. Michael Shermer.com has all my Scientific American columns and other media events that I do and so forth. So skeptic.com, Michael Sherber.com, and Amazon to order the book. One more thing that I wanted to ask you about. I remembered. I'd forgotten earlier.

And I think this guy was in the skeptics group. A guy named Massimo, it's a biological and philosophical guy. Do you know him? Yes. Pagalucci, yeah. I know him. I know Massimo. Yes.

Is he still, I haven't heard for him in a long time. Oh, he's still around. Yeah, he was just a standard biologist. Then he went back and got a PhD in philosophy to learn philosophy, whatever. And yeah, so he's a very smart guy. He wrote an interesting book on The Difference of Science. It's pseudoscience. You know, how do you know?

Where's the line? Right? Because everybody thinks everybody else's beliefs are pseudoscience. Yeah. Right. Well, I want to hear more from him. I thought he was really, he was a pre-COVID hero of mine, and then we all got diverted our attention went elsewhere.

So it is skeptic.com. It is skeptic.com. It is skeptic. Michael dash Schumer dash show. Check that out. Let's see. Skeptic. No, Skep.

Res Center on X. Michael Shermer on. our research center, yes. Right. All right, well, listen. I hope I'll get a chance to talk to you again soon. It was really a privilege, and thanks for writing the book. All right.

You're welcome. You got it. Thank you. And hopefully there will be no mob action. You guys, those are you over at Rumble and on the restream, and they're behaving themselves? Let me look at the Rumble really quick, the ramps. Is your mic on? I don't think your mic's on.

You're so far away from it. Yeah. And then Stephanie says she's been following Michael for over 20 years. The restream, I had trouble getting the stream to run today for some reason. Yeah, you too. Crimson King says I'm too skeptical if you even follow him. So there you go. A true skeptic. The true skeptic would say Michael Shermer doesn't, I'm not sure he exists.

So thank you all for being here. Let's see what's coming up, Caleb. We've got more shows this week. Thank you, Emily. from New York. Thank you. Lamey Varsh, booking the show. There's a lot of stuff going on. Jesse Kelly. Scott Pressler.

Let's see. Carolyn Boroscent. I'm not sure who that is, but I'm sure it's good. Aviva Frye, Tony, good one. Honey, boo-boo, I believe on the fifth, there it is. With Remi Adelaide, we're going to talk about the human trafficking and so much that's been going on with the cartels and trying to understand that. I mean, we talked about it a long time ago.

And everybody is like, uh-huh. We reposted one of his and my conversations. Excuse me. And people really went for it. So we thought, let's bring Rami me back and revisit this. And on that same day, new special edition, probably in studio with me will be Michael Malice. It should be very interesting. Michael Malice.

Kind of like Michael. No, Michael Malice. Uncle Cliff is an interesting find of mine on, I think he's on X. I think I found it there. Cliff. Just speaks the truth. I'd like to hear from Uncle Clough. So we've got a lot to get into.

So tomorrow and Friday, tomorrow's show is at 1 p.m. The reason being is I have to do Gutfeld at... Yeah, 1 o'clock Pacific. I have to do Gutfeld tomorrow, so I have to run out and do that. And one Pacific, yes. This is only like half of the guests that Emily has lined up. Like, it won't fit on the list. Yeah, she's got so much stuff going on.

We have everyone from Walter Kern is going to be on the show. Jay Dyer is going to be on the show. Dr. Charlie Powell. Salty Cracker is coming back on April 23rd. So just reminder to everyone subscribe to the channel. Sayer G who's got an incredible thread on X about. Peter Galilee. Yes.

From the wellness company. So, as I say, it's your emergency kit. So I want to get to the times. It's one o'clock on Pacific. Tomorrow, Pacific. And 230. That's 4 p.m. Eastern.

excuse me, 2.30 Pacific on Friday. Ooh. Not sure that timing is right on Friday. That's not going to work for us. You have to reset that time. 4.30. That's 5.30 here. We have a...

No, that is going to work. That's going to work. I get so screwed up with the time zones. And now I've had Polish time zones in my head, too. So apologies. Yes, that will work. 2.30 Pacific on Friday. And then back to our usual schedule next week.

All right. And then it's going to get screwy again a little bit in the second week of March because I have to go back to Florida and film some stuff. So we'll be off for that week. No, we're going to do at least one or two that day that week. But we appreciate you all being here. We appreciate the attentiveness, the interaction on the stream. Yeah, that was a good crowd on Rumble. Yeah. Appreciate it very, very much.

And again, send us ideas, things you'd like us to do. Like us on YouTube, please. We're going to get to, like I said, YouTube, subscribe on Rumble. We're going to get to 500,000 there pretty quickly. And Caleb, do you want to mention the caller thing and how we're going to do that eventually? I'm working on it. We're bringing back the live callers on the show. We have a lot of new features, and I'm ready to get some people's input and their feedback and their comments on the air again very soon.

Yeah. All right. We will see you. Breaking out the big bucks. One o'clock Pacific for a call. Clock Eastern. See you there. Callard. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky.

Emily Barsh is our content producer. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only. I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving, though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me. me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published.

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