Ask Dr. Drew - James O’Keefe: Why He Left Project Veritas & How Undercover Guerrilla Journalism Exposes The Inconvenient Truth – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 323

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

James O’Keefe is a renowned American journalist and media innovator known for using undercover footage, whistleblowers, and unconventional flare in his reporting. He’s founded three media organizations over his 15-year career (including Project Veritas) and currently serves as the CEO of O’Keefe Media Group. James O’Keefe has written and released three books: Breakthrough: Our Guerilla War to Expose Fraud and Save Democracy (2013), American Pravda: My Fight for Truth in the Era of Fake News (2018), and American Muckraker: Rethinking Journalism for the 21st Century (2022). He is a 2014 recipient of the Young Professional Conservative Leadership “Buckley Award” awarded to “young professionals in recognition of significant achievements in advancing the conservative cause.” He is the recipient of the Robert Novak Award for Journalistic Excellence (2011), has been named “Fox News Power Player of the Week” twice, and was on the Forbes “30 Under 30” for media moguls. Follow James at https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII and learn more at https://okeefemediagroup.com/ 「 SPONSORED BY 」 Find out more about the companies that make this show possible and get special discounts on amazing products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors • COZY EARTH - Susan and Drew love Cozy Earth's sheets & clothing made with super-soft viscose from bamboo! Use code DREW for a huge discount at https://drdrew.com/cozy • PROVIA - Dreading premature hair thinning or hair loss? Provia uses a safe, natural ingredient (Procapil) to effectively target the three main causes of premature hair thinning and hair loss. Susan loves it! Get an extra discount at https://proviahair.com/drew • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Get an extra discount with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician with over 35 years of national radio, NYT bestselling books, and countless TV shows bearing his name. He's known for Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Teen Mom OG (MTV), The Masked Singer (FOX), multiple hit podcasts, and the iconic Loveline radio show. Dr. Drew Pinsky received his undergraduate degree from Amherst College and his M.D. from the University of Southern California, School of Medicine. Read more at https://drdrew.com/about Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Boy, I don't know how many of you are able to watch that video rolling in before we go live, but it really is worth your effort. When you look at some of the interviews we've done. People on the podcast can't see it. Yeah, I know. I understand. We should play it, Caleb. Yeah. It is a James O'Keefe moment that we were showing you. James Fryman did his own James O'Keefe activism there by having a meeting with the FDA, which unbelievable things were revealed that in retrospect were worse. I remember being astonished at the time, and now I'm deeply concerned.

In any event, we have James O'Keefe today. was uh talking to a white house cyber official who said quote they can't say it publicly the white house wants to replace kamala harris uh and confirms that uh biden's got some issues and quote i'm just telling you what i've heard they're really concerned about it i think they need to get rid of him or her that is right out of the horse's mouth and that's james o'keefe i think you all know him from project Veritas. We will get to him after this. Our laws as it pertains to substances are draconian and bizarre. The psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous.

I'm a doctor for f***'s sake. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying. You go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time.

Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Valentine's Day is around the corner, so it is time to look your absolute best. My friends at GenuCell are celebrating Valentine's Day with a special gift just for you. From now until Valentine's Day, get a limited time gift of beauty box free with your order at GenuCell.com slash Drew. Each beauty box has two of Genucel's top sellers for you to give a try. It's absolutely free. And right now save over 60% off all of our favorite Genucel products with one of our customized skincare packages. I know I'm a snob about the

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To let yourself and a loved one with our limited edition bundles right now at GenuCell.com slash Drew. Use our special code Drew at checkout for extra savings off your order today. And remember, every order placed is automatically upgraded to free shipping. Don't wait. That is GenuCell.com slash Drew. G-E-N-U-C-E-L.com slash D-R-E-W. We are very privileged today to have James O'Keefe. G-E-N-U-C-E-L dot com slash D-R-E-W. We are very privileged today to have James O'Keefe. He is an in-person activist, so to speak.

You know him, as I said, from Project Veritas. You can follow him on X at James O'Keefe, K-E-E-F-E. Also, O'KeefeMediaGroup.com is the website. And it's a real privilege to have him here. Welcome, James O'Keefe. Welcome, sircom is the website. And it's a real privilege to have him here. Welcome, James O'Keefe. Welcome, sir. Hello there. Great to be with you.

Hey. Good to be with you as well. And I think we briefly passed in the night in South Dakota at the Freedom Fest. Dave Smith kind of introduced us for a second, and then I think you were up on the stage. This was, I think, two years ago, but, uh, good to see you again. Nonetheless.

Great to see you again. So most recently, let me, if you don't mind, I'm sure you've asked, been asked these questions a million times, but it's just for the purposes of my audience. Uh,

let's, let's just go through your evolution. How did this happen to you? The ended up in this kind of journalism and what motivated it? Well, that's a long story, but let me try to say it in a New York minute. I was in college. I'm 39. So when I was 19, I basically started a little Rutgers, New Jersey, State University of New Jersey.

I started a magazine called The Centurion. It was a weekly, excuse me, monthly investigative muckraking kind of organization. And most journalists, most people are commentators. They opine about the news of the day. And I decided to really dig into my campus issues. So I investigated how much my professors are making. I did a lot of like agitprop kind of gonzo journalism, like in the style of, I guess you could say Borat meets 60 Minutes. And one thing led to another. I did more, I did Planned Parenthood things.

I did this story on Acorn with a guy named Andrew Breitbart. That was in 2009. That led to the congressional defunding of ACORN when Barack Obama was president. And then I started a nonprofit called Project Veritas, ran that for 14 years. We did some massive stories, stories on elections,

stories on pharmaceutical companies, stories on media bias. Was fired from the company I founded a year ago, a week after I had a story on Pfizer. And now I'm i'm doing um omg which is focused mostly on the border right now but i'm i am noticing that um society is changing in the last few months and whistleblowers are coming out of the woodwork everywhere what any are you going after them is Is that what's happening? You're able to get to them? There was one story in particular that occurred two months ago with IBM. A guy came to me with

an IBM high-level person and had a recording of the CEO of IBM, a man named Arvind Krishna. This is like December 10th or so. And usually when people whistleblowers come to me or deep throat type sources, it's one or two people. But what I've been noticing with the Border Patrol and everywhere else is that when this IBM person came to me and I published the recording of the CEO, the recording showed the CEO of IBM saying that, oh, we can't hire Asian people. The more you fire white people, the bigger your bonus is going to be. These are some pretty shocking quotes. And when I published that, 150 people inside IBM contacted me. I've never seen anything like that. In fact, what's remarkable is that, and this was definitely, as you call it, an O'Keefe moment. We published the tape of the IBM CEO and then the IBM CEO's emergency all staff meeting with his 60,000 employees.

And the thing that he says is, don't talk about James O'Keefe. And that meeting was sent to me by seven IBM employees. So what I'm starting to witness in what I do is that there's just been this explosion of people following their conscience and they have absolutely nowhere to go. They certainly can't go to the New York Times or CNN or I don't know, wherever people used to go. So they go to me.

And let's sort of standing back, you know, and I'm going to ask you to opine for a second, if you don't mind. And I know the muckraking is a little bit of a different posture, which is what is happening? And this is a question that's a thought bubble over my head all the time. What is happening to us as Americans and what is happening to journalism and cable television, all these crazy, crazy distorted outlets? That's a great, that's an existential question. I wrote a whole book trying to answer that question called American Muckrakers, the name of the book. It's a combination of things. I think certainly economics, you know, of media, why does it always the citizens? Why is it always the independent people? I don't even have a lot of money. Why isn't it the big behemoth corporations

that do the work? We did a story on Jeff Epstein and ABC News, Amy Robach, that's the then anchor for Good Morning America, is on a hot mic, on her lav mic during the commercial break, talking freely about how she couldn't report on Jeffff epstein because her the the leader of the of abc news was close to the british royal family so you have this sort of dynamic in mass media where uh uh the media ops operates in symbiosis. You there? There we are, sorry.

It doesn't investigate government. You have this sort of symbiotic relationship. And there's a great book about that called Manufacturing Content by Noam Chomsky. There's a symbiotic relationship between when you should be investigating and being adversarial and being skeptical, you have to kind of ally yourself with federal agencies

and and then you got the pharmaceutical issue you know and you know brought to you by Pfizer and all this sort of thing where they fund most of media so you have to be in symbiosis with those these well what really if again it's sort of just another way of describing exactly what you've described you're talking about ossified elites elites and what's kind of fascinating about this our version of elite these were the people and i and i've sort of watched this coming on i saw it in college campuses too which is these elites were the muckrakakers slash talking shit to authority. They were the ones, you know, the good guys that were getting rid of the guys in the white shirts and the skinny ties. And they really are so stuck in the notion that all goodness is centered in them that they can't see where they have become, where they've fallen short, where they've become part of the problem. And I noticed it in college campuses when I said this probably 10 years ago, and I think it was the evergreen thing that got me going where Brett Weinstein and his wife were nearly killed, which was, well, these administrators cannot speak like adults to young people because that's what they hated when they were in college.

They hated, remember, you were too young for this, but it was question authority. Don't trust anybody over the age of 35. This was their reason for living. And now they've become the authority. And they wouldn't dare tell a young person what to do and what to think. And they're behaving, the elites, the administrations, are behaving like children themselves. And so there's no adult in the room. And guess what happens when that goes on?

Things go sideways. So that was my first sort of sense of it. It was going on on college campuses and now it's gone further right where the in the in the the ossification is as you're saying in the media elites with the government with the corporations in in a certain way a i want you to comment on what what i've laid out but is it not the case that it really what it starts to veer into is a fascism it's a kind of a fascistic thing which is government corporate unification that's it well it's literally that because the fbi raided my home and pointed guns at me and took my reporter notebooks which is a rubicon that has

been crossed as a journalist rarely does journalists get raided by the FBI. In fact, I'm not aware of a case where a media organization was raided by the FBI, where they were confiscating notebooks. And then they would say, well, James O'Keefe is not a journalist. Well, that's a very interesting question. Because if the news organizations aren't doing journalism, who is a journalist? So that's another story. But my comment on what you said is that what I've found to be true of media organizations, they're not willing to break news. Most media organizations will opine or comment or react to news that someone else has broken, but the liability associated with breaking new ground, especially television news, they'll cover – everyone sort of – you have like 0.1% is actually showing new information, and then you have 99.9% of media commenting on it.

And I think that's because it's risky. No one wants to break new ground. And what I do is we break new ground. We have people on tape reporting sensationally blockbuster things, people lying, cheating, stealing, scamming, and then people sue you for defamation. The government harasses you. It's expensive. Mike Wallace back in the day, now dead, but 60 Minutes used to do this 45 years ago. You had Chicago Sun-Times, and they did all types of undercover things, not all of it video-based. Of course, Upton Sinclair 100 years ago in the jungle, light undercover work, but wrote a novel.

A lot of it was sensationalized, and it's frowned upon. I think the biggest thing I've learned is the New York Times attacking me constantly. It's like, why are you attacking me? We should be on the same team. But they got those sources inside the Department of Justice. And it's almost like there's a manipulation that occurs between, I don't call them journalists, but the people, the New York Times and the government. The government's kind of manipulating those journalists and force feeding them the information. They parrot it without skepticism and journalists are supposed to be skeptical well it feels like the model has changed on two levels one is the the business model has changed i had a show on hln for years and we didn't we couldn't put reporters out on the field that was

like laughable we were doing a talk show essentially a talk show about the news. That's what cable TV has become. They've closed down all their... It really started, frankly, not just with the business model shrinking, but also with celebrity news. That was cheap. That was easy. They could close down all their bureaus and just report on Britney Spears. And they'd get

better ratings. And so off they went. They are... And it's funny. And I'm not a journalist. We have said it over and over and over. I'm not a journalist. I was hosting a show. We talked about things.

And I think most of cable news has become like that. It's funny, I saw, I bring this story up again. I'm just bringing it up for you really quickly. I saw a Soviet journalist in the 1970s. This stayed with me to this day. I was watching like a 60, it was a news magazine like the 1970s. I'm just, this stayed with me to this day. I was watching like a 60, it was a news magazine, like you're describing. And this sort of Mike Wallace guy

was beating up this Soviet journalist. You know, how can you merely, you're under such influence from the government, you're just pirating what the government is saying. How can you call yourself a journalist? And the Soviet guy finally pushed back hard and said, hey, look, he goes, our models are different. Journalism in our country is a political instrument.

In yours, it's a commercial instrument. But trust me, your distortions will be just as bad as ours. And here we are. Took about 50 years. But isn't that interesting? Yeah, I mean, well, I have a lot to say about that. I mean, the First Amendment, it's all about informed consent, and the public has a right to know in the United States. So our value, our axiom, our principle is the public's right to know the information. Does the public have a right to know it?

That's a very unique and novel and perhaps revolutionary idea. You're absolutely right. In the Soviet Union or Russia, it's more Potemkin village. The journalists are escorted through and shown a fake thing that is in alliance with the state. But I would say to you that it's gotten so bad, I'm not sure that the commercial imperative is compatible with the news. And I say that as someone who's probably more of a capitalist and, I suppose, libertarian approach to economics. But I think the laissez-faire dynamic with journalism, I don't think it works. I think you have to be extremely philanthropic as a newsman. If, like, I'm the chairman – I was the chairman of Project Veritas. Sometimes our legal bills were millions and millions of dollars a year. So you have to be a loss leader. You have to spend a tremendous amount of money,

perhaps not profiting on most of your news. News is a very philanthropic endeavor. We can spend upwards of a million dollars to do one story. And there's no way you're going to recoup your costs on that. So I don't think anyone has really figured out a business model for journalism that is not a 5-1-C-3 model. Right now at OMG, I have a combination of models. We also have a 5-1-C-3 called Citizen Journalism Foundation. We have some sponsors. We have some that Tucker's doing behind the paywall stuff but i don't think anyone's figured that out i mean abc news a billion dollar company whatever

it is disney and they've completely axed their investigative journalism bureau so this is a really fascinating conversation and and uh i write about a lot in american muckraker you know you you uh are sort of making my point for me. There is not a business model for journalism, and so they're going the direction they go. And do we, Caleb, do we have the video from

the White House staffer I referenced in the opening comments? Is that what I'm hearing? I'm not sure if I understand the text I'm getting from our producer. I don't know if Caleb can talk to me. Susan, he can't talk to me. He can't talk because his RODECaster crashed. Do we have that video?

I don't know. Maybe he can text me. After the break, but you will ask. I have some other questions for James in the meantime before we get to him. Yeah, and also, we're not on spaces. I saw that. Just don't worry about that. Yeah, I saw that.

We're having a little audio stuff here and there today. Alabama. Alabama roadcaster. Yeah. But the sound still works. So you're being told by the, shall we call it, mainstream media? Legacy media? What's our name? What are we going to call the the new york times at all you have a name for that i don't know that's a good question i

mean some people call them corporate media legacy media corporate corporate media i like corporate media so corporate media uh calls you says you're not a journalist. Is Tucker a journalist? Well, they also called him not a journalist. I like the phrase not a journalist, not hyphen a hyphen journalist. They said Tucker wasn't a journalist after his Vladimir Putin interview. The United States Attorney's Office in New York literally wrote a memo to the federal judge in my FBI case saying, and you can't make this up. This is what the prosecutors actually said this.

Your Honor, James O'Keefe is not a journalist because he secretly records people. Well, there's a lot of journalists that have done that for the last 50 years. But I think that fell out of fashion, I suppose, in the 90s with Diane Soder being sued for a food line investigation. It was all about lawsuits and litigation. And a lot of this was economics. I don't think it was politics. I really think it's just journalists are lazy. And like you said, they sit in booths and talk. They take a black limousine to this office. They go up to the air-conditioned studio and make a million dollars a year, and they don't really do a lot of field reporting. They don't really do a lot of original stuff. So I think it's more just the dynamics of power and money than anything else.

Yeah, they're talk show hosts. That's really what they're doing. They're hosting a talk show. And I don't have any problem with that, but let's be honest about what it is. It's you're hosting a good morning show or you're hosting a talk show where you talk about the news. Fine, fine. And guess what? You should have an opinion if you're a host of a show or you should sort of be able to sort of, go ahead. The police have been called on me almost every single time, every single time they call the police on me. And I, and I, and I, and I say that for a reason, not because I'm doing anything illegal,

but look at the difference between like what we're doing where every single time I'm out and about like I, with my microphone. So what do you have to say about this? You're caught on tape here by this guy, or there's a secret Ramada in filled with illegal immigrants. And some of them are lying about their sponsorships and my illegal immigrant source has recorded this guy and they call the sheriff's office on me.

So you know you're doing something right when every single time. Now, how many times have these people in their talk shows and their broadcast booths had the police called on them? When's the last time they were raided by the FBI? And I hate to say that because I don't break the law, but there was a great journalist called Gary Webb in the 90s. There's a movie made about him called To Kill a Messenger.

You may have heard of it. And Gary Webb wrote a book. I believe that book was also called To Kill a Messenger. And he said, for a long time, I was winning Emmys and I was winning Pulitzer Prizes and I was speaking at journalism schools and I felt so good about myself. And then I broke a story. He did this story about the CIA and drugs in Los Angeles that made me realize how sadly misplaced my bliss had been. The reason I had encountered all that smooth sailing for so many years is because I never broke a story important enough for them to try to censor. And this is a guy who was being accoladed and,

you know, and as the hardest part of my journey, I've been doing this for 20 years, 15 years in a major ways. I've been lied about and defamed so many times. And for a large part of that decade of, of constant defamation, you begin to realize that human beings don't like to be hated. They don't

like to be their Wikipedia page with filth so that when you're, you're read about and you're just, you think I'm a monster. Nobody likes to live that way. And I think we've reached a tipping point or I suppose now in the year 24, where I think most people, most Americans are starting to read between the lines and they realize, well, maybe Wikipedia isn't so honest and maybe being praised by CNN isn't the most important virtue. I think if we haven't gotten to that tipping point, we're pretty much about to be. That's good to hear because something has to break the elite stranglehold, it just seems to me. So let me ask this. Let's adopt their notion as a fact or principle.

Let's say you're not a journalist. Let's say you're not a journalist.'s adopt that what are you if you're not that that's a i always i have a in my pocket a funny joke i say i'm a i'm a it's like bruce willis's quote from the from the fifth element i'm negative i'm a meat popsicle i'm a captain kangaroo. It's nomenclature. I'm not a journalist. But they're obsessed with that, the identity politics. And I think that there was a sponsorship on the congressional floor years ago where Chuck Schumer was trying to define a journalist. It was a very difficult thing to do because journalism is an activity.

It's not merely an identity you are as aristotle say you are defined by what it is that you do so um it's a very fascinating question they try to create a shield law for journalists but um i think that you know and it came to the founders and pamphleteers and the kind of work that you're doing. It's important to understand that it's the activity, not the identity. And it's almost, no, I don't know if I'm going to say this, but I'll say it. We'll chew on it a little bit. I got to take a break in a second. But it's almost the discourse it generates that's important, right? I mean, you talk about the pamphleteers

during the uh founding fathers era that that was about creating conversation and distributing information and and it came around again in the mid-19th century where gosh if you read the lincoln douglas debates from douglas's journalist versus lincoln journalist you would read two entirely different debates entirely like like lincoln has gone on the record he actually went and read he would read both versions and then collate it and put it all down the way he remembered it or where he'd written it out partly and presented that to the newspaper and said these are the debates and we've forgotten that journalism it's not a profession historically it doesn't have professional does it have professional licensing it does i and i guess it begs the issue should it i hope not because that

goes at speech then what do you think i mean these are these are profound issues you bring up that are very difficult to reconcile but i think the independence i mean you know elon musk buying buying x in my opinion and echoing what charlie kirk said is probably one of the greatest developments in the Western civilization because you have now what appears to be a very free platform. Our videos, that White House video you mentioned a minute ago, the one I got two weeks ago, the cybersecurity, that was viewed 30 million times. 30 million people watched that. And video journalism is extremely important. Like the primetime live undercover stuff from 30 years ago,

people need to see. It makes all the difference when people can see something. It's versus a newspaper article or a pamphleteer or whatever they did before video. It changes the whole dynamic of how we perceive the world around us when we can kind of see that White House official when he's talking. Hopefully your producer can pull it up in a moment, but he goes, oh, you know, I work in the White House and they all think Kamala Harris is horrible and she treats black staffers horribly and she's a bad leader. And I say, well, can't you say that publicly? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. We can't say can't say that publicly oh no because she's a black woman and but what's remarkable is that as long as there's a gap

between how these Washington DC people talk like amongst each other in bars and the official Potemkin propaganda that they feed to the New York Times as long as this not the same there will always be ripe opportunity for people like me to expose them. And let's face it, there is an artifice that is pervasive throughout, I guess, that's just part of life. I mean, people are phony and there's phony baloney in media. There's phony baloney in business. But when it comes to our elected officials, people have a right to know. People thought, oh, James, you're unfair for secretly recording people.

You're going to ruin their lives. Well, in this country, in the United States, it's founded on the public's right to know. And journalism does hurt people. Some really good journalism sometimes hurts people. But the public's right to know trumps all that shit. The public's right to know the information is the most important thing. And not lying to the audience, that's why we go undercover. That's why we use pretense.

That's why we're guerrilla, because we have to get the truth to the people. And if I just parrot what they tell me, hi, I'm a journalist. Tell me how honest you are. If I just parrot that, then I'm lying to the audience. And that's what corporate media does. That's what legacy media does. That's what people who are brought to you by Pfizer, that's what they must do because they can't be skeptical of all of the organs of power. So you kind of have to be independent. You have to be without a safety net. You have to be a kind of tight band of brothers, which is what I've found.

And take it from a man who was fired from the company, he founded my board fire. And I had to start another company. So it's very guerrilla in how you do it. All right, we got a lot to talk about. You just prompted a ton of stuff in my head. So we're going to take a little break. We are going to get that video

so another 10 million people can see it. And I want to talk a little bit about the right to know versus ethical discomfort we might have with how the right to know gets elucidated. I'll tell people what a Potemkin village is. If you don't know, it's been referenced a couple of times and you might want to check out Michael Malice's white pill,

which is all about Potemkin villages. And I want to talk a little bit about your firing. So there's a lot to get into James. I appreciate you being here. We'll take a quick break and be right back. Thank you. Are you one of the millions of American women and men dealing with premature hair thinning and hair loss?

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And also at O'Keefe Media. Thank you, James, for being here again. As I said, a quick question for you technically. We have the full 13-minute video of your undercover conversation with the White House staffer. Is there a particular minute or so that's of relevance? I would say the first two minutes or maybe, you know, with these videos, we usually try to take the whole story

and then compress it down into a two-minute version. So if we just play like the first 90 seconds, maybe. All right, let's do that. So you're pretty high up in the government. Yeah, I'm fairly high up. I'm good at keeping secrets. And so I manage two federal agencies, the State Department and USAID.

So when you say security, like you're protecting... The networks of the federal agencies that you give all your information to. The mission is to protect information... We are like the president's voice when we go into meetings in terms of discussing and promoting the president's priorities. Is he going to be the nominee? Yes. And she will be the vice president nominee.

Yeah, I don't... There was a debate about removing her from the ticket, but sadly they didn't. She can't keep black staff. They quit on her in mass. But with him, I mean... Yeah, I know. I know. He's got dementia. Yeah, well, he's got dementia. Yeah, well, he's definitely slowing down. But they know that he has those issues.

I think so. But they're not willing to say it. The polling shows that. They're not willing to say it publicly. Correct. And same thing with Kamala Harris. She's not popular, but you can't remove the first black lady to be vice president from the goddamn presidential ticket.

Like, what kind of message are you going to send to, an african-american voter how would you spin that people would be like what the fuck like like she's a woman and she's multiracial i think i think that they're really concerned about us but they won't say it i guess if they say it publicly correct they can't say it publicly no no, no, they've got to do it privately. But they won't say it publicly. Correct. They can't say it publicly. No, no, they've got to do it privately. But they can't say it publicly.

All right, let's kind of wrap. We get the vibe. You're just telling me the truth. Does it make sense? No. Time to stop, Caleb. There we go. So we get it.

I remember that. What happened to this poor guy? Do you know? No. No, the system has become wise to me. Usually they fired them, but even if they do fire them, they probably do it so quietly because it would trigger an Associated Press bulletin if they fire this guy. This guy is not a low-level guy. He's cybersecurity, went to Harvard,

oversees USAID and the State Department. And I want to make one comment about what you just saw. That statement, we can't say it publicly. You have someone who works for the state, who's on the inside. He's there in the executive office, the Eisenhower building. They don't talk like that when they go on the media, do they? No, no. They don't talk that normally, that conversational, the cadence, the honesty. You might be thinking, oh, I'm getting him drunk. No, I think he drank like maybe half a glass of wine.

It wasn't that. It was that there's just so much fakeness in our politics. And imagine how more educated people would be if they saw those types of conversations done at scale so let's let's again adopt your point of view um is he wrong no no he's honest he's right he's right he's right you can't say stuff like that. Yeah. So he couldn't. The reality is. What are you saying? But behind that, people get into a very, and I think that's the purpose of this conversation, but people get into a very deeper waters with it's justified because we're righting wrongs.

We're bringing things into the present. It's just the way it is. It's just how we do it. Which they get upset at the methods by which it was obtained, or do you mean something different? No, no, I want to get that too. No, they would say, of course we can't talk about it. It's not savory, but we have to protect her and that point of view

to make sure that people like her are given the appropriate support and jobs and move forward that they feel justified in that i think that him the money shot of all the things in that video and usually this is typically the money shot it's when the subject says um we can't say it publicly. The Pfizer guy a year ago said the same thing. He said, promise me you won't tell anybody anything what I'm about to tell you. Whenever they say that, that's when we fix our camera. Would you just say that right into the button, sir? That's when we get really, our ears get finely tuned to what's about to be said. It's the deception. It's the law of non-contradiction. The person can't say X and

then say opposite of X. You cannot say as a public official who works in the White House, it's perhaps the greatest issue in the history of the United States is this election between Biden and Trump and who's the vice president is very important, by the way, for reasons I don't even want to state. You cannot say, well, we don't want to tell people that. We don't want to explain these issues. I mean, you have an obligation to tell people that. In fact, it's the nadir, it's the worst type of evil to say to people, well, we can't say this to the American people. It doesn't get much worse than that. But that's the status quo, isn't it? And we all participate in the parade.

And most Americans, frankly, to be honest with you, they just believe what they see on local news and believe what they see on national news. They question nothing. They're too busy working. Most people just don't want to disbelieve the narrative because it's easier to live that way, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I must tell you, it's uncomfortable to see what you do. I'm framing this specifically for a reason. It doesn't feel right.

It feels like some ethical cords are pulled upon, that it doesn't feel like somebody should be subjected to this. Go ahead and answer that. I wrote a whole book. I wrote, there's a chapter in American Muckraker called Ethics, and I really, I'm, I'm probably one of the, I've read more on journalism ethics than probably most journalism school

professors. And, um, there's a, there's a chapter in there and I'm not, I don't have a photographic memory, but I'm gonna do my best to recite what I know. I mean,

Ernest Hemingway, Ernest Hemingway, who, you know, once wrote about ethics said, what is good is what you feel good after. This is like a very minimalist way of saying this. What is good is what you feel good after, and what is bad is what you feel bad after. So perhaps when it comes to journalism, it's not so much what is good as

what you feel good after. It's you're better off having done it than if you didn't do it at all and i find that with most of our work um you're better off knowing this information when it comes to deception it's a question of relative deception because either you're deceiving your audience by parentinging all this propaganda, this Potemkin, which is what they accused Tucker of. And some of those criticisms would have merit if Tucker wasn't challenging Putin. And I haven't watched the full interview yet. Admittedly, there it is. So, and then, and then, so it's a question of relative deception.

So if you are parroting the propaganda talking points, then you are committing a sin. You're committing a pretty bad one. You're lying to your audience. So if the person says, well, this is X when really it's Y, then you're telling your audience something that's false. Or you must deceive your subject in order to tell the truth to your audience. And in many circumstances, it becomes a moral imperative for you to deceive the person that you're talking to so that you can get the truth out of that person and distribute that to millions of people. I think as an ethicist, which I'm not, but I'm a journalist, so I have to deal with this. Well, I think it's a pretty easy formula.

You have to deceive the individual, you know, pose as something you're not. Don't tell them who you are so that you can get that truth. Upton Sinclair certainly did that when he smuggled his pencil into the jungle in Chicago. No one thought that was bad. Everyone thought you'd read about that in high school. But what makes this different is technology. It's the camera. People don't want their dignity be photographed.

They don't want their photo distributed, their likeness. And I get it. But the photograph, the camera, is a more honest version of events than the written down version which unfortunately dominates the newsrooms of the new york times and the washington post and i don't disagree with anything you say but this becomes really interesting territory because a as hemingway points out moral moral sensibilities are is probably the foundation of morality i mean there are moral philosophers and theorists out there and and really as i read that philosophy when you get right down to it there is a moral sensibility

whether it's the famous uh streetcar experiment or whatever it is people have feelings about these things but the job though is not to stop at the feeling and to really use the front part of your brain to develop an ethic that either defends or refutes that feeling and what's interesting about what you've just presented to me is you said it should be a moral imperative so now we're going to kant right and and so i i don't disagree with you that it's a moral imperative but kant has a section a second injunction which is no one should be used as a means to an end and i think that's the part i i i get it i get it but I think that's the discomfort in all this. People can't quite navigate that.

Well, there's a mathematician once described it sort of like portfolio management, which is above my head. But it's like if you were to graph this out, there's an efficiency frontier. I was talking to the Weinstein brothers about this and their mathematical geniuses there certainly is a point where it's like okay that's wrong and where that line is you know there's another woman jessica mithford who wrote a book the uh the gentle art of muckraking where that where that point is where you go this is a little disgusting right that that that's yeah feeling feeling again it's a feeling disgusting, right? That's unclear. Feeling again. It's a feeling again. Well, it's clearly situational. I wouldn't necessarily describe it as a feeling. I think

it's more rational because privacy is a great example of this. I never report on anything happening in someone's bedroom, consensual sex, unless they're using taxpayer dollars, unless they're a senator using the public coffers. Obviously, there are places I won't go. And I think that's completely situational. There's no hard and fast rule when it comes to ethics. It has to be situational. And I think that it's clearly the case if you're a cybersecurity official in the White House and you are meeting with James O'Keefe, probably violating your clearance, and you're spilling all the beans about meetings that you didn't play the clip where he goes, I'm sitting with Michelle Obama,

and she doesn't want to run for president. That's clear. And you're in a public restaurant, also, by the way, not in the bedroom. All these different variables. And by the way, I take, and I want to say one more thing before we move on from this. I got the Ashley Biden diary. That's the president's daughter. A tipster sent it to me. And I did not publish it. So for those who think I'm an activist, I just want to hurt Biden, there are places I won't go. And my staff was upset.

Many of my staff were upset I didn't publish that. But I did not publish it for a couple reasons. You know, it's a diary. I'm not sure that people should be reading that. Um, and I couldn't verify that it was hers and I couldn't verify the things that she wrote in the diary occurred. And I'm not in Ross pro, you know, they brought his family into it. And I, and I read about that and heard about that. And so there are lines I won't cross. And there's a lot of things said in these tapes that I don't publish. People talk about personal things.

I never, it's pig's blood. So I think it's very important to take ethics extremely seriously. And it's one of the things I researched and wrote a book about. And we mentioned Potemkin Village a few times. Essentially, Stalin set up these false utopias in ukraine to take journalists in there to show him how wonderful everything is while catastrophe was actually breaking out all around and one journalist got off the train before he was sent to his destination and saw the starvation and people turning on each other and the violent it was just a disaster but patampkin village is like a false you know something created it's a disneyland

whoop i lost you james i've lost james sound i've got to say something yes there you go i wish i wish you guys had watched the putin interview because i found it fascinating and i was i was kind of hoping that i did watch a lot of it. Yeah, but I would love to know James' take on his masquerade. I have it on a few things to do. I've been in the field. You've got to watch it.

But I want to say Potentiary Village also could mean like Shane Smith, the founder of Vice, that big media company in Brooklyn that I guess went bankrupt or is no longer relevant. Shane Smith would make it when the investors came, he made it look like he had all more employees and they were doing all these things.

And as soon as the investors left, it went back to its original size. It's just any type of deception towards a passer-in or a passer-by or someone who's documenting. And that's why people are more honest when they don't know they're being recorded. And I think Susan is saying that she feels like Putin was espousing Potemkin village. Oh, sure. Okay. All right.

Well, everyone knows he's a leader. Look, much like our leaders are not telling the truth. He told a little bit of truth at the very end. There were a couple of questions. You have to go all the way to the end. All right. I'm not going to give you a spoiler alert. Why were you fired, James?

What happened? Yeah. Another difficult thing to summarize in 30 seconds. You know, it's really, it was really bizarre. I think it, I wrote an essay about it on the year anniversary last week. It's posted there on my X page. If you scroll down a minute, but one of the board members was extremely acting very bizarrely. And I probably should have fired some people. I didn't, I made a mistake and I did not put the right people on my board. 501c3s require a board,

nonprofits require boards. I don't know if your audience knows that. And I ran it like a company, even though no one owns a nonprofit. So in nonprofits, it's challenging because no one owns anything. So achievement is often a liability and no good deed goes unpunished. It happens in hospitals, churches. And we got to a point where one of the guys, I knew it was not good. And a number of big donors told me he was extremely envious of me. So he kind of created, of 75 employees,

he found about eight to 10 who wanted to create this sort of Maoist mutiny. And he successfully got someone to vote with him. And they suspended me as CEO. And it was a crazy and wild, and I would even say spiritual experience for me. I learned a lot about myself, about leadership, about people, human nature, jealousy, power. I have since learned that almost everyone goes through this in some way or another in business. I mean, you know, either Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or the guy

who founded Uber. There's a lot of people that go through this. And what I learned is that, you know, I needed to be a little more discerning when it comes to selecting board members and executives around me. Have you read Elon's biography, the Isaacson biography? I just finished it, actually. Yeah. And so you saw that it's kind of, I was having a conversation with someone today about this, that he, those experiences taught him to be able to fire people. And I, and then frankly, I have to empower everyone. So I'm always looking for the angels and men, even bad people. I'm trying to find like, how can I best utilize you? And, and what Elon did, that's just how you have, if you want to be a CEO of a company, that's just what you have to do. It may not be pleasant, but in my company,

everyone was friends with each other. Even my chief financial officer, my number two, they were actually friends with the employees. They still are. And I would say, you can't do that. You can't give someone a raise because you're friends with them. That's actually unethical. But fortunately- You have to have boundaries. You have to have boundaries. Human relationships need boundaries. I became the only bad guy.

I became, and I was also the brand. I was the face. So it was a very strange dynamic. I was the chief fundraiser, the chief executive officer. I was the on anchor and I was the talent. And I had effectively 50 to 70 people that were supporting. And a lot of those people expressed anger that they weren't getting the credit. And I said, we were undercover journalists.

You want to buy a line? So it became a very unhealthy dynamic. And one day after the Pfizer story, we did this story in Pfizer a year ago, which was the biggest story that we had ever done. One of the board members said, we no longer need James O'Keefe involved in this operation anymore. And I'm not sure they thought that out because after they voted me out, there was a, I mean, there was an absolute rebellion from the supporters in the audience and they withdrew all the money. But that was the hardest thing I have ever been through. I've been incarcerated. I've been raided by the FBI.

I've been sued 30 times. But obviously, it felt like I was castrated. And I had to go through a lot of pain. What Elon talks about with PayPal, I think he wrote about that. And I quickly started a new organization about a month later. And now I am proud to say that I have learned my lessons and hopefully, God willing, don't make some of the same mistakes. And I've found some amazing people. We have a smaller team now, I would say about a dozen full-time employees, and we're working with a lot more citizen volunteers, citizen journalists, and whistleblowers.

So I think it's a healthier dynamic now. And that tends to be what happens. It tends to get healthier with these sort of crises. And yeah, Musk just kept his eye on the ball, which was, I've got to save humanity by taking them to another planet. And if I have to fire people and it's unpleasant, there's a higher calling here um one thing i'm not going to be able to get to today i don't think uh is this we i was going to split up the kind of conversation maybe we have to have another conversation or a or a beer sometime but but is the we had the ensconced elite and the other thing for me is something called oikophobia you ever heard of that it's that it's it's the

western hate of itself uh that this there's a theory that societies as they evolve sort of turn in on themselves when they become successful and it's again a term in the west called oikophobia i hope i'm getting the name right but i don't have time for that i i want to i want to leave that as sort of a just hanging as a as a thought and ask you about pfizer uh can you a can you talk about that and b what are your thoughts on what's going on there i think you saw the the little uh clip we played rolling in here that there's stuff you know doesn't make sense there's a a lot of questioning. Do you have an evolved sense of where we are with Pfizer and vaccines? I don't.

This is not an area I'm a subject matter. You and your guests you've had on, and it's not really an area that I'm, I can only speak to what, you know, some of the people I've covertly interviewed have said, like Jordan Walker, who's a director of mRNA, but you already know that. And some of the other whistleblowers I've worked with, I've worked with a few. I've broken probably about three or four stories on Pfizer,

but I'm in no way a subject matter expert to speak beyond what you've already seen in the videos. Okay. And can you clue us in? I'm looking at my notes, because I have so funded by the feds in Tucson. And that went viral. You can look on our X account and see these videos. Every Wednesday now, we do a report, which is a deadline. I've created an internal deadline. So every Wednesday at 4 o'clock, we break a story. And we're about to break one.

We almost got killed on the border. There are these secret camps, like almost like NGOs. They're nonprofit groups, but they get money from the government. It is wild what's happening on the border. And I know we all, it's a cliche, border, border, border. I mean, it's just crazy. I mean, we're talking big money, billions of dollars. There's me as a homeless guy on the perimeter of this one complex. That was last week. And while I was snoping around, the money, the amount of money that it's an industry to traffic is one word, ship. But one in 10 of these kids get raped and trafficked in this child and people trafficking organization. So a lot of my sources are on the inside now long-term,

but this coming Wednesday, you're going to see me go to, personally, me, James O'Keefe, go to one of these camps in the middle of nowhere, okay, in Arizona. I'm talking 30 miles away from the nearest road. And the things that you will hear and see, we almost got killed. And what's crazy is that these people are getting money from the nearest road and the things that you will hear and see we almost got killed and um and it's and what's crazy is that these people are getting money from the government so i think this is going to be a big issue it's ongoing it's going to be my major focus this year james thank you so much follow james on twitter follow the new company on twitter go to the

website which is hold on here you can can tell me. O'Keefe Media. Is that it? O'Keefe Media Group. O'Keefe Media Group.com. And you can follow me, my name on all platforms, Instagram, X, Telegram, James O'Keefe, Roman numeral three. I'm James the third. James O'Keefe III is where you can get that's a cap there you can get all of our videos there okay so it's x at x james o'keefe k-e-e-f-e-i-i capital i capital i capital i james will keep the thing with instagram you can follow me there both places all right james been a pleasure thank you so much thank you cheers yeah that's uh interesting right susan susan i feel you wanting to say something yeah what what do you want i just wish you guys

watch the putin thing we wouldn't be in a position to talk about it that's not his thing we'd be speculating is Is Putin reliable? No. Is his history accurate? Maybe. Is Tucker a journalist? Kind of. There we go. Now we've talked about it. That's about all you can really say.

What is it you want to talk about? Maybe we should get a guest that penetrates in a way you want to Russian. Yeah, we need to get Brian O'Shea back. Or a Russian. How about a Russian expert? Just somebody who really, you know, used to talk to a Castro expert. Yeah. There's a guy here on,

um, Rumble who said he lived over there and said, yeah, he's, he's, uh, he's, uh,

what does that say? Subterfugal decades where people were being issued passports in countries and wishes to conquer the Crimea. He tells half truths, truths to help his cause, which I felt in the conversation. And our government- Is that different?

Is that different than other politicians? It's always been like that. Is that different? I don't know. But he was trying to rally his nationalistic country. He was trying to rally us. He was trying to rally us, too. Yeah, he was.

You shouldn't be afraid of us. He's a KGB operative he was. You shouldn't be afraid of us. He's a KGB operative, guys. You shouldn't be worried about us. We're just a little Russian country. Maybe it's all the truth. I love Russians. Don't you? No, I love Russians.

But nobody who lives in Russia really likes Putin that much either. Oh, no, that's not true. When we were there, remember, people were very upset with the way that things were going. That was like 12 years ago. There was people that loved it. I can't believe he's been there 12 years. If somebody stays for that long and things aren't going well, it's just sad.

We'll call them a dictator just for the sake of argument. Rumble, guys, I know there's a lot of you watching James today. Please do subscribe, follow. We love you a part of our Rumble channel. We'll give you a blast when we go on the air. Caleb, if you could put the upcoming guest on, you'll see that you'll want to be a Rumble guest. Jimmy Dore tomorrow.

Alex Berenson the next day. Zuby coming in. Rob Henderson is a great guest. Great new book coming out called, uh-oh. I can't remember. You're going to put it up there, I'm sure. Brett Weinstein, March 5th. I'm very excited about that.

Very excited. Oh, my gosh. Very excited about that. That's exciting. Maybe he knows about Russia. No, he's a biologist. So don't get too, you know, if we get too geeky, you're going to have to straighten me out during the interview.

No, that's okay. We'll find somebody. And he's an evolutionary biologist, actually. I think that's his actual formal training. But in any event, which is just saying a biologist that everybody got to know the biology the foundation biology is evolutionary uh uh processes and and science and chemistries biochemistry so any event uh what was i going to say i lost it rob henderson you put the book up there caleb if you've had it's called disturbed or something like that. I've read it. It's great.

It was lying around here. Don't see it right now. I think it's out now. Really, it's a personal story. Rob Henderson is a young man that was disturbed or troubled. It's called Troubled. It's called Troubled. That's what it is called.

And he goes sideways, and he ends up in the military, and that kind of saves him. And then he's able to use the military bill to go to Yale. And he goes to Yale and he's shocked at the way these privileged students behave and where they think. Then he goes to, I think to Cambridge or Oxford where he becomes a social psychologist. And he's still there and teaching and a great guy,

a great story. And it's, it's everything we talk about. So, all right. So, okay. Don't worry.

Caleb tells me he can't throw the book up. That's fine. that's fine that's fine it's all good it's called troubled i recommend it most highly caleb doesn't have a mic today so i know and follow us his roadcaster went on the it's a communist plot i don't know maybe it is or maybe it's people that hate james o'keefe i noticed a lot of bots afoot on rumble rants today i don't know if you saw that it was all right right. Everybody was cool. Well, there was some interesting commentary going on. I'm sure. Yeah.

So there we are, buddy. We appreciate you being here. Appreciate being a part of this. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr.

Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. that's right. I'm going to be on Jimmy Dore's show today, this afternoon. I don't know when it's airing, however. I don't know how he does that, but I'll be-

Is he live? Anybody? Bueller? Somebody help me? Somebody on restream? Well, there's a delay, so nobody's going to be able to answer right away. Thank you, James.

Give it a couple minutes. It's Tom Cigars. Thank you, sir. Somebody said, was it Super Bowl? We heard somebody's keeping jeans high and tight. They want Susan more. I'm just reading the restreams here. The doubt is that it's live.

I doubt it's live. You know what? Here's the thing. I studied Russian history and Chinese history and Arab history in college. And it was right before the invasion of Kuwait and Saddam Hussein and all this other stuff. And in the 80s, everything was just hearts and flowers everywhere. And then all of a sudden, I was learning about wars in the late 80s. And I found Russian history, really, and Chinese history to be my thing,

and communism and everything. But I also know that the propaganda is propaganda. If you watched the video, you have to kind of read into it and see what, you know, look at his gestures. Look when he kind of laughs before he says something. Because you can tell, like, by body language that he's uncomfortable with the question. And most of it was at the end. But, you know, to know the history of Russia is really important and of china as well yeah um but and he did do a long diatribe and i have to say the guy has brain cells left because he told a very good story but you know tucker was very nice until the end of

the thing so stick till the end and just you know one thing by the way so i'm of ukrainian descent and i didn't know any of that which was kind of fascinating but i did know that there was this deep sense of being russian because we were always told we were russian we're russian russian uh but the interesting thing that was left out what scott adams caused that calls the dog that's not barking he didn't talk about he jumped from all that ukraine he jumped he jumped from about 1640 to catherine the. And what he didn't talk about was the extreme violence of Peter the Great and some of the other czars that came through there and how they consolidated power in those areas and how they forced all the aristocrats to move to St. Petersburg

and they built this thing out of nothing because he was jealous of Versailles. Anyway, longer story, sort of the more quasi-modern history of Russia, he just leapt over about 200 years, which I thought was fascinating. And then he was really aiming. Yeah, he leaves out the bad stuff. He was aiming at the Crimea. He was aiming at justifying the reason for the Crimea. Catherine the Great restored it.

You notice he put it that way. They just wanted the port. They wanted the port so badly. They wanted the port, and they will not give it up. There's no way they'll give it to Sebastian. That was their power. But it's just interesting, like reading body language and hearing how he just speaks so glowingly of the mother country,

but how he's trying to get things done. And the Russians are that way. People didn't want to show up, or they didn't take my offer, and so we just walked away. But it was all in good faith, which is bullshit. Poor me. It's bullshit. But yeah, it was interesting though

that they got Tucker in there and that he went through it. It was a good interview. So I don't know. People don't want to watch it. We will leave it there. And tomorrow we are going early. Not going early.

There was talk about going at 2.30 tomorrow. Is that what we're doing? Yeah, we're going to start at 2.30. 2.30. we are going to bring jimmy door alive so you may not see him and me live if you can't get enough jimmy door come see us our warm-up is on his show and then we're going to get into it somebody on rumble said but susan our history is light i think you know what light is a lie there's i mean there's all kinds of you know interpretations of history obviously you know and you can't really be a historian unless you were you weren't alive when it happened and you have to research it based on what was written i guess so by the people that lived it

which is which is a new way of doing but now i'm really realizing that nothing written is real anymore so how are we how the fuck are we supposed to look at this world historically? The letters. So whatever. We're not going to solve that problem now. Nobody's going to be honest about how many people died from the vaccine. You know what I mean? We'll see.

History has a way. It'll be 100 years before we figure it out. Right. Reality has a way of asserting itself, so stand by it. We'll see you tomorrow at 2 30 pacific ask dr drew is produced by caleb nation and susan pinsky as a reminder the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care diagnosis or treatment this show is intended for educational and informational purposes only i am a licensed physician but i am not a replacement for your personal doctor and i am not practicing medicine here.

Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me. Call 911. If you're feeling hopeless or suicidal, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255. You can find more of my recommended organizations and helpful resources at drdrew.com slash help.