Ask Dr. Drew - Johnny Depp & Amber Heard: How Men & Women Are Judged Differently w/ Dr. Robi Ludwig – Ask Dr. Drew – Episode 91

Episode Date: June 10, 2022

Johnny Depp won his defamation lawsuit against his ex-wife Amber Heard. who was ordered to pay the "Pirates of the Caribbean" star more than $10 million in damages. How will the case's outcome affect people who are in abusive relationships, and will the jury's decision stifle rights to free speech? Dr. Robi Ludwig is a nationally known psychotherapist and award-winning reporter. She received the 2020 and 2021 Best of Manhattan Award in the Mental Health Practitioner category in the Manhattan Award Program. She has been appearing on broadcast media since the late 90s and is sought after for her psychological insights on a wide range of topics. Find more from Dr. Ludwig at https://DrRobiLudwig.com and follow her at https://Twitter.com/DrRobiLudwig  SPONSORED BY • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Genucel uses clinical levels of botanical extracts in their cruelty-free, natural, made-in-the-USA line of products. Get 10% off with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation ( https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/FirstLadyOfLove). THE SHOW: For over 30 years, Dr. Drew Pinsky has taken calls from all corners of the globe, answering thousands of questions from teens and young adults. To millions, he is a beacon of truth, integrity, fairness, and common sense. Now, after decades of hosting Loveline and multiple hit TV shows – including Celebrity Rehab, Teen Mom OG, Lifechangers, and more – Dr. Drew is opening his phone lines to the world by streaming LIVE from his home studio in California. On Ask Dr. Drew, no question is too extreme or embarrassing because the Dr. has heard it all. Don’t hold in your deepest, darkest questions any longer. Ask Dr. Drew and get real answers today. This show is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. All information exchanged during participation in this program, including interactions with DrDrew.com and any affiliated websites, are intended for educational and/or entertainment purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Today, we're going to talk a little bit about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. We're going to dig into that case a little bit with uh psyd psychologist robbie ludwig you can find more about robbie at dr dr robbie ludwig so it's dr robbie r-o-b-i ludwig l-u-d-w-i-g dr robby ludwig.com her new podcast is bite size b-y-t-e-s-i-z-e check out more there and i've known robbie for a long time and she's always got some interesting insights and there's a lot in this case there is her website there is her podcast and uh both of us have been sort of fascinated by this case for a variety of reasons on both sides on the johnny

depp side and the amber her side and so stick with us we'll be right back to dig in and we're also up on clubhouse taking your calls so we'll see you there. treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician. I observe things about these chemicals, but just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time, educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop, and you want to help stop it, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. Hey, everyone. Welcome. As I said, I've got Dr. Robbie Ludwig coming in. You can find her website at drrobbyludwig.com. We are listening to you.

We're watching you over on Clubhouse. We'll take some calls. And I'm up on the restream. And I'm seeing you all in there. Hi. Thank you. And you are welcome for joining us and I've got to find the, there we go.

And then we're on the Rumble Rants as well. So you can message us there. I think Susan will jump in on that one. And Susan, you all set for today? Hopefully somebody will come back after yesterday. Somebody meaning those that were trolling you? I think they were kind of entertaining trolls. They're not just the random ones.

Yeah. I see a lot of your mom's house fans here too. So those of you that wonder why people are greeting me as Hitler, that's a code for your mom's house. Let's bring Robbie in here. Dr. Robbie Ludwig, welcome to the program. It's good to see you. Oh, great to be here, Dr. Drew. So happy to be with you again. So you've been doing tons of commentary on the Amber Heard, Johnny Depp situation. Where do you think, there's obviously a lot to be mined here, where do you think we should start? Oh gosh, I mean the one thing that really fascinates me is how people responded to Amber Heard and the negativity that she got. There didn't seem to be anyone who was showing up for her in the court of public opinion.

I was really fascinated by that and just how much social media played into this whole process. So I actually was sort of disturbed by that as well. And I feel, to me, there were, well, I don't know how to say this, but I don't think there were winners in this case per se, because all kinds of psychopathology was on display on both sides. But I felt like the people loved to attack what they perceived to be lying. And I don't believe Amber Heard was lying. In fact, we saw a psychologist on the stand giving us two very specific diagnostic constructs associated with distortion.

It's cognitive distortion, memory distortion. Talk to me about that a little bit. Yeah, I think one of the things that got missed, at least this is what I noticed from people who would reach out to me, people in the Twitter sphere, what do they say? Twitter universe. Twitterverse. Twitterverse, yes, would say that Amber was a psychopath. Now, you and I both know that's not the case. No.

Or she was a sociopath. And so there's this extreme distortion and labeling, which was not accurate to what she has or who she is. And a misunderstanding, which I can understand. I mean, people in the public, when they watch this kind of dynamic, and it was reality TV, it was good guys, bad guys. Things were very black and white. You're either in favor of Johnny Depp or you're in favor of Amber Heard and anything in the middle got lost. People who were commenting regularly about this case. And so I thought Dr. Curry was excellent. She was one of

the psychologists for Johnny Depp's team, who evaluated Amber Heard and said that she had borderline personality disorder, which was something I was suspecting without testing her, and histrionic personality disorder. And so borderline personality disorder back in the day used to mean that a person sometimes has difficulty distinguishing between reality and non-reality. They were on the cusp of neurosis and psychosis. And so a lot of what Amber was talking about, in part, was her experience of the situation and her relationship with Johnny Depp. And that she experienced herself as somebody who was abused, and he was more powerful than she was, and he behaved in these ways that were really extreme. One of the things I think we

did see was that Johnny Depp verbally abused Amber Heard. We couldn't really see anything else. But that point somehow got lost in the court of public opinion. And it was labeled lying. So I don't know if you would see what people would say about her, but it's bad acting. She's manipulating and she's lying. And so I didn't quite see it that way. But I realized that Amber Heard had a problem connecting with people. She wasn't likable. And I think it's hard for women to be likable anyway.

So that's a separate issue. But yeah. I don't know. I mean, you're likable. Susan's likable. I think borderlines have trouble. And that actually is what made me sad because no one suffers with the borderline disorder more than the borderline herself or himself. They're often acutely aware that they're not right, that something's wrong, that they're dysregulated, that they have trouble connecting. And often, you know, some of that disconnect comes off as emotionally

vacant. When they're crying sometimes, their tears often seem sort of vacant when they get upset. And that's just the dissociative quality of having a borderline disorder. And so on one hand, I feel like Johnny and Amber did us a public service because it gives us a chance to talk about these disorders. Unfortunately, too much of it was sort of on a superficial level in social media and not at the level you and I are talking about it now. Yeah, because we're really talking about it from an intellectual perspective, which hopefully more people can understand because we know that there are borderlines out there. You know, they often have an anger issue. They often react to situations in an extreme way. They fear abandonment. And all of the really heard

about Amber Heard via the various people in her life and the various people in Johnny Depp's life. Let me kind of ask you, and we're going to get to Johnny and all his pathology very quickly, too. I mean, obviously, there was lots of, I mean, just profound alcoholism on display there. But how do we procedurally deal with, this is something I've kind of struggled with, the fact that borderline, people with borderline disorders and histrionic disorders, so she kind of had a double whammy, will often, you know, I had this experience many, many times as a caretaker in a psychiatric hospital where I have a perfunctory routine examination and I walk out and the borderline patient reports having been abused or mishandled or all kinds of crazy things, which is why there's always somebody there with me who can corroborate the actual experience. But how do we deal procedurally with that reality in a Me Too era where Me Too insists that everyone has just believed. And the reality is it's a little more complicated than that. And how do we not lose our desire to support people who were abused and are reporting it

and people who may be distorting and people who may be distorting and have been abused? So it's hard procedurally for me to get my head around. And back when Me Too first started going, I going i kept saying god we need some kind of way of you know you don't just rubber stamp everything because it's that's that's going to get you in trouble too and i think some of this negativity towards amber is a backlash against that you see oh no you can't you know they sort of are frustrated with with they believe everybody when they know somebody may have, you know, distorted the facts. How do we deal with this? What do you think? What are your thoughts? Well, I mean, you know, if we talk about cancel culture too, I think it is important before we go in and, and accuse somebody of being guilty, that we understand the facts. My son was in a frat,

and there was a report that a couple of the fraternity brothers had complaints from girls. And the way that they handled it was they completely, I guess, fired these kids or let go of these kids from the frat, and then would talk about why. And I would tell my son, that's awful. We need to hear the whole story because it's not as simple as people think. So hopefully this will raise awareness that we need to seek facts before we jump in and annihilate somebody and affect their career. So I think this case is really good in that regard, that the truth is what matters. And we need to understand the difference between the truth and somebody's truth or distorted experience or experience.

Right. And the messy world of the co-created experience when two people have psychopathology, this thing we call the relationship, which is the thing that the two of them do together, is a big freaking mess. It's always a big mess because they both bring their own stuff to it and it goes crazy. And nowhere does our psychopathology come out more than in the interpersonal space, right? I mean, that's where it really comes out. So true. So true. I mean, once we're married, actually, it allows people to feel comfortable enough to be their worst self because they feel like, where's the person going? And not only that, psychologically, we can turn our spouse into whatever we think they are, whatever we need them to be.

So that kind of emotional dynamic can go on as well. I mean, it just, to me, and this is not a term that's really liked, mutual abuse seemed to be going on where they both gave as good as they got. But it's interesting because this case was a bit of a popularity contest. Who do we like more? Who do we know more?

Who do we trust more? And it encouraged people, I think, to forget the areas in which Johnny Depp also failed on his end as a partner. So I'm going to read you something from Michelle here on a restream and let you react. It says, the evidence showed that she lied in court of law. Let's see, how is this okay? As far as drug abuse, she was a druggie too. So you know what?

I can't resist. Let me do a little bit first. First of all, there's no evidence that she was a drug addict. Borderlines do a lot of drugs. That is, doing drugs and being an addict are not the same thing. There it is. And in terms of her lying in court,

this goes at the core of what Rob and I are talking about, the difference between lying and a distorted experience. So I'll let Robby comment on that. Yeah. So, you know, when a person is talking about their experience, they can only see it through their lens. But if their lens is broken or distorted, that's the way they experience the world and themselves in relation to other people. And so that's not lying. That's sharing their perspective. And somewhere in there is the truth. I think one of the problems, though, is that Amber took video of herself. And once you, with Johnny Depp, and once you see something, you can't unsee it. And that will have a very large impact on the people who are, know the jurors I imagine and

the court of public opinion amber came off as almost mocking that she was the one in control of the relationship so I think to hear that she felt abused given some of the video that we saw it didn't seem to be insane or it didn't seem to make sense. Let's see what this says. As a domestic abuse, wait, we put that one back, Caleb. As a domestic violence survivor, you don't ever good your abuser like she goad. I think she means your abuser like she did. Also trauma is indelible and she changed her i don't know what that is for something um well again we're we're not we're trying to stand back from the who's right who's wrong who's guilty who's who's um respond you know who's uh you know liable we're trying to

just look at the pathology on display as a result of this. And here's what I want you guys to understand, those of you on Restream that are freaking out. People like Amber Heard come see people like me and Robbie, and we have to have profound empathy for them. They do horrible shit sometimes. So do the Johnny Depps of the world. Drug addicts do even more horrible shit. They kill people while they're driving their cars and stuff.

Our job is to find the place of empathy for these folks and understand their experience. And probably help me out here. Yeah, no, I agree. Listen, the court is the court and I'm not a lawyer. And Dr. Drew, as far as I know, is not a lawyer. And so we get to explore the psyche in a much more expanded, layered way, because we have to. And here's another reality. A lot of physicians and therapists, when we have a borderline, we're like, oh no, because they can make your life really difficult and they're not always likable. And this case brings up another issue. You know, what if the person who is abused is not likable? Because not all abused women are likable. And Amber did have that problem that she didn't come off as very likable for whatever reason. She seems to have problems with people in general in her life.

It doesn't mean she wasn't verbally abused. Now, it doesn't make it right that she also seemed to be abusive in her own way. And there's something called mutual abuse, which is a very controversial topic because in general, when we think about domestic violence we think about a person in power and they inflict some kind of abuse and then sometimes the abused person can react in a volatile way as a way to protect themselves. So it can look like violence is happening on both sides when in fact one is a reaction to the original abuse. But I don't think that happened here. I think that they both knew how to stick it to each other and trigger each other. It was just in different ways. And Amber

was not as sophisticated about it. Johnny Depp, you know, also knew how to poke her and trigger her. I'm not saying he was physically abusive, but there was a little bit of, you know, sadism there because he was so enraged and who could blame him? I'm sure he had reason to be angry. So I think it's most important to say, let's look at this from a psychological construct where we can understand things from a different perspective that doesn't label somebody wrong and right in those simplistic terms you know you know it's interesting to me and I'm going to try to sort of parse this in some fashion and maybe we can understand what's going on here. So the people on my chat restream are freaking out.

Their perception is that we are defending Amber Heard, which is categorically not what we're doing, which is interesting. And then what came up here, this is really what I want to zero in on, there is this weird tendency for television audiences in particular to want to hold borderlines accountable and confront her behavior, which is the opposite of how you manage these people. It is, it is apparently to watch someone try to make a connection with a borderline. And, you know, it's. And it's like persuasion.

Like we talked about with David McCraney yesterday. If you go at a borderline straight ahead, they will come back with the force of 50 Hydra right at you. It will go nowhere. Yeah. But if you try to make a connection, understand the experience they're having, sometimes you can move things in certain directions.

I'll let you keep going here. But it's interesting to me how the world is freaking out that we're defending Amber Heard, which nothing could be farther from the truth. We're not defending anybody. We're just looking at their behavior. Exactly. So Dr. Drew is not defending her. I am not defending her. I am not defending her.

But I could see many characteristics or factors going on at the same time. Like, for example, I think one of the things that contributed to Amber Heard creating trouble for herself with the op-ed is that it didn't really share the whole story. So Amber, due to her character disorder, liked the idea of presenting herself as a victim because I'm sure she really does feel that she is a victim. Maybe not only in the marriage, but just in life in general, due to her own history. And she showed no awareness of herself. So it was like, I'm an abused woman and look what happened to me. And I want to be a voice for all abused women, which I'm sure is true. Here's the issue. Okay. Amber, um, how did you contribute to this scenario? Did you do anything that might've been considered abusive? Did you want to bring him down because you were so enraged? Like,

I think if she would have owned her own behavior and mixed it into the article, it would have been a much more interesting piece because it's not damsel in distress and then guilty party it's isn't it interesting i was abused but you know but i i didn't i didn't behave well either yeah you know how borderlines it's all one way all the other so i i've never seen a borderline spontaneously and and by the way because of that i blame, I don't think what she did was right at all. So in terms of defending her, let me be super clear, not right what she did. But the newspaper that published it and the editorial people that played into it, they are disgusting. They are truly villainous in this whole thing. This was a sick person that they used to get more

viewers and to get their paper filled. That's disgusting. So I don't think what she did was right at all, but it was not villainous the way, because she's just sick. She's got all kinds of stuff going on. And it's what they do. But to have this paper push that out there as a fact, as though it was completely an unassailable truth, that is disgusting. And so that's where i

draw the line um but you know but but by the same token i i understand and i'm empathic towards what happens to borderlines people were just talking about what i was doing with tricia paytas who's had got severe borderline disorder and has been suffering with it for a long time and does some crazy awful stuff in her thing um But she's working on it. She's trying. And, you know, as clinicians, our job is to come in and support the growth and development, not to exacerbate their condition. And people just can't get their head around what that is.

It's so interesting. Yeah, I think it's complicated, right? I mean, we both have worked in psychiatric hospitals, so we have worked with severely mentally ill patients. And we can't expect the public to understand what that looks like and what it means to be in the presence of a poor life. Robbie, let me interrupt you. I want to interrupt you a little bit.

And unfortunately, you have Dr. Philz and people like that out there being abusive to people with psychopathology. And not that he doesn't do good TV. He does, but he's not doing psychology. He's, he is, he is reenacting their stuff and God bless him. Uh, but, but people think that's what we should be doing. And that is that I could never, it's just ethically I couldn't do that because I know that's not, it hurts them. It hurts them. Yeah. And so Dr. Phil will say himself, he never wanted to be a clinician because it wasn't fast enough.

You know, that he couldn't deal with the slowness of people getting well and it can happen over a long period of time. But I just wanted to your point where borderlines don't serve themselves well. If we look at the video that Amber took of herself, she looks horrible. Like, why would anyone take video that makes themselves look bad, that makes themselves look abusive. So there's a part of her that engenders that kind of punishment. So on some level, she must feel, I deserve to be abused, either consciously or unconsciously, because the content she put out there did not serve her well. I just wonder if that's just more of the distortion, that she is so distorted in that

moment of what, you know, her experience of what he's doing, and poor me, I'm a victim, that of course everyone would have the same experience, which is one of the more, for borderlines, that's one of the startling, and histrionics too, that's sort of their, they really can't get that other people aren't experiencing what they're experiencing they they really think that you know no no no that you you'd understand too if you were in my shoes like no no we wouldn't that's your unique experience because of what's going on with you that's really where borderlines get themselves in trouble i think one of the places because they don't seem to be responding to what actually is going on and they experience

they experience events in this paranoid way in this way where they feel they're being left or attacked or mistreated and they are very easily triggered because you know some people really feel, and newer studies suggest, that having borderline personality disorder very often is caused by a chaotic childhood. Where there probably was a lot of trauma that interfered with them developing the way they needed to develop. And also when you're very beautiful. Let's face it. Amber Heard is gorgeous. when you're very beautiful let's face it amber heard it's gorgeous there's something about the iciness of her looks that makes her appear um you know manipulative oh interesting i i wouldn't have thought of that but i think that is an interesting observation and and i think it is that you know

not not all borderlands look like amber heard but they use what's at their disposal. That's for sure. And I want to emphasize for people. Yeah, but there's also women that are beautiful are also in abuse situations a lot more too. And they don't get, I found from what I experienced, they don get really the uh respect because they are beautiful it's sort of like oh well you deserve it because you you you know you're hot or you you dress like that or you you know you drive him crazy yeah or people just think like how could it be so bad

right yeah wait wait wait you guys are not making sense no i mean being beautiful has is there's a there's a big part of it in here and being an actress and and having her look well i i think being beautiful is evocative for men right right and evocation is one of the things that borderlines sort of thrive on uh so i don't know you tell me more about how susan you think that would work well yeah i mean it's they they put up with more because the beauty or whatever but they're also just being beautiful sometimes you're not able to convince people that something bad is happening to you because it's like well how could that happen i think that i think that was a long time ago i think now it's gone i, I hope it's gone the other way.

Yeah. But she brings up the beauty factor. Let her go into that because that is an interesting point because when somebody is really hot, it changes everything. It's a different thing. Before Robbie does that, let me just say that I want people to understand that are struggling with, people seem to really be struggling with what Dr. Ludwig and I are talking about, which is that, just think about it this way. Our experience is not just sensory information coming from the outside world.

It's very much colored by our internal experience of what's going on in our feeling states that are emanating from our body, our heart, our emotional states. And it colors how we perceive and lay down memories. All of us do that. Borderlines really are victims of that. Literally, they can't, they know it's an unregulated area that they're, well, sometimes they don't, but oftentimes they at least know they're unregulated. But go ahead, Robbie, talk about the beauty piece. What do you, what's your perception on that? Um, well, listen, I'm, I'm sure Amber used her beauty to her advantage and why shouldn't she, right? I mean, it's, you know, her beauty and her sexuality to kind of use as, as she wishes. But I think that there's a very high expectation

for women and it's very easy not to like a woman. And I'm not just saying in this kind of case, but you know, I do think men get a pass at being more likable. There was a study once that found women like men better and men like men better. And I always love it because there's a lot of truth to that. And we look historically and culturally what we want women to be. We want women to be the ideal mother. We want them to be virtuous. We want them to be good. And unless they're behaving in that way and hitting all

the marks, it's very easy to say they're manipulative or they asked for it or because we don't want to kind of recognize that, you know, women can't be on this pedestal, you know, and that there are a lot of good women out there who are also flawed. But I think in general, it's easy to go in for an attack. Now, I don't think Amber helped herself because I think there was a part of her that wanted, you know, knew she was beautiful and it worked to her advantage and to her advancement. And there was a self-centered quality about Amber. And one could sense or imagine, and maybe this has to do with the borderline lack of empathy,

but there was a sense that she was in it for herself. She's always looking out for herself. Everything she does is for herself. And that's not a likable quality. And that's something the court of public opinion will turn on you for. And that wasn't quite the sense with Johnny Depp. You know, even though he revealed that he had drug issues and he did things he wasn't happy or proud about, first of all, he acknowledged it. He acknowledged his flaws. And there was something really likable and warm and charming about him.

And we give men passes. We don't have the same expectations of them. Well, I agree with you it's interesting that you know and and what you're you know we got to remember that both borderline and histrionic are narcissistic disorders so there's narcissism woven into you know these conditions one way or another but but you are right um that you know borderlines the alcoholics and that sort of zone can be very charming and appealing and you can easily feel sorry for them they have this thing what's out of control and they know it and they feel bad about it while borderlines sort of don't know all that's get affecting them they

just know they're not right and they have trouble uh i don't i don't i'm not used to borderline sort of copying to things. They kind of know something's not right, and they end up in trouble, and the relationships are messy, and they feel bad about it. But an alcoholic can tell you, yeah, that night I drank too much, and I yelled, and I'm ashamed, and I was blacked out. And there's all these very, very specific things. And when they're not in their illness, when they're not intoxicated, they can seem very constituted. And the borderline doesn't get that, you know, they're always in it, more or less. They're always in the borderline process. I just want to say something, Dr. Drew, because I think that this would help the audience understand kind of our position of not

necessarily taking Amber Heard's side, but let's take somebody who is schizophrenic, right? Somebody who has a thought disorder and they really believe that the TV is talking to them and telling them to eat a million calories a day or whatever. Usually, it's like they feel they're getting special messages. If you were to ask them, they would say, the TV spoke to me. I actually heard it. I saw it. And that is my experience. It happened. And that's what gets lodged into their memory. Was the TV talking to them? No, it was a byproduct of a misfiring brain or, you know, a psychiatric disorder that impacts the brain and how the brain experiences reality, right? Or non-reality. When you ask them, they're going to tell you what their truth is, but it doesn't mean it happened. So it's similar with Amber Heard. And something you said early on, you talked about the notion of borderline disorder being on the

cusp of neurosis and psychosis, which is exactly where the term came from. It used to actually be called borderline psychotic. That was the original term, borderline psychotic, meaning they have a kind of a weird thought disturbance. It's not as frankly delusional or as frankly hallucinatory as a schizophrenic, but it's a distortion like that. And if we're going to condemn all of them for their illnesses, people like you and me are, I mean, I feel, you know, we can treat this stuff.

It can get better. And you can hold her accountable for not getting treatment. I'm always up for that. But Johnny Depp, same thing. You know, you can get treatment. You can participate in treatment. You will get better. Dialectical behavioral therapy really works for borderline.

There's all kinds of treatments for the alcoholic addict. If you get in there and embrace it, good. But if you reject it, well, I can understand people kind of condemning you for that. I get it. Yeah, listen, we don't like to see people who seem to benefit from a relationship and then engage in abusive behavior. We don't want to see that, especially with somebody who is a beloved star who had a very different type of connection. It was so interesting, Dr. Drew. I was doing Court TV last night, and there was an interview with a lawyer, chow is that his name chiu and chiu

anyway he was one of the lead lawyers um who was sitting next to johnny depp and they had such a rapport with one another at one point they fist pumped one another it was caught on camera and what i did not know before this interview is that Johnny Depp had worked with this legal team before. So he had worked with this amazing legal team. Yeah. So he had already had a relationship with them. He already had a connection, but seeing that he was able to connect with so many people and, and be likable and well-loved, you know, that registers with people. And we assume, oh, he's so lovable, then, you know, we're more inclined to feel maternal towards him or to want to protect him. I need to take a little break here. And Caleb, I want to ask you before we go to break,

we've had people in other countries who watch our stream who are interested in accessing Genyacel. Do we have a mechanism for them to do so now? I'm actually, I'm checking with the company to make sure. I know there's certain workarounds that people have found of ways to get it ordered to Australia and other countries, but I'm working with it, trying to figure out how their distributors work. Okay, well, let's take a little break. Robbie, thank you. We're not going away. Thank you for supporting our supporters.

Yes, and we appreciate it. This is a good product, too, thank goodness. And you will appreciate it. We only have the best here. The way Susan, Caleb, and I do. And by the way, I've been very focused on hydration products lately. You'll hear my story of woe sometime soon.

Yeah, well, we need a new sponsor. So I've never felt that stuff is more important than nothing. Yeah, yeah. But we'll take a little break, retire a little Genucel, and we'll be back with Dr. Robbie Ludwig after this. Don't know where to start on your skincare journey either? We all have that something we'd like to take care of. For me, it's the under-eye bags and puffiness when I don't get enough sleep

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See results you love guaranteed or your money back. Try GenuCell's most popular package today and use code DREW for 10% off your entire order. That's G-E-N-U-C-E-L.com and code Drew for 10% off. And we are back. We're Dr. Robbie Ludwig again. I can tell you for sure that under eye cream works. Yes. For the bags.

I put it on, it shrank. Everybody needs that occasionally. And the shamanics. But you know what else is good is their under eye. The eyelash stuff. Paulina just walked in.ina likes the eyelash stuff. Yeah, Paulina just walked in. She stole the eyelash stuff. Oh, no. But the other eye cream that's really good is the whitening under your eye cream.

Like if you have dark circles. Is that the vitamin C thing? It actually works. No, these are the eye creams. They have really good eye creams. Those two are really substantial. Well, there you go. So thank you to them, and thank you all for supporting them uh we're back with dr robbie ludwig it's dr

robbie rbi ludwig as you d w i g the podcast is bite size b y t e s i z e do check it out and um why don't we go to some phone calls you up for that robbie yeah people here today this is really interesting i'm like i'm so excited we have such a big... Well, I'm learning something too as Robbie and I discussed this. We are two clinicians talking about the phenomenology of people with pathology and people experience that as taking sides or defending somebody, which it is most certainly not. However, we are charged with going into the room and empathizing deeply with people with horrible pathologies of all kinds. And that's how we get them better, not by hammering them over the head. That makes them worse.

And it makes them better when you can establish that rapport. We just did an hour with David McCraney yesterday about persuasion. It's the same phenomenon. Remember I told you it was the same thing when I talked to him. But that I've always taken the position that, look, once you push back on treatment to the point that you harm somebody, well, now it's in the legal system. Now I have no opinion. Now it's on the system.

So if you drive drunk and you didn't do your fourth step or whatever it is or you didn't see your therapist and you've been resisting treatment and screwing around, it's on you. That's it. You're not responsible for your disease. You're responsible for your recovery. That's sort of the way I always looked at it. And it becomes, you know, then I leave it to the courts after that.

Then it's not my thing. And it's sad when that happens, frankly. So Lizzie, I'm going to bring you up here. Go ahead. I'm curious if you guys have seen this show, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, which is very, very my favorite depiction of a borderline personality disorder and recovery from it. Yeah. She was, you know, I've struggled with that with her. She was not.

We'll probably let you comment. Did you see that show? I have not seen the show. Okay. I'll take your word for it. She gets enough crazy during the day. Yeah, she behaves in a borderline manner in relation to her relationship problems.

So I'm not sure I could call her a borderline disorder, but there's definitely this quality. And by the way, she's kind of describing an early, late adolescent, early adulthood relationship. And that's how everyone behaves during those years. You all behave borderline. That's true.

I did. Right. I will admit to that. And so I had a hard time really saying it was per se an explanation of borderline, but it does show you how people can kind of get carried away. Let's put it that way. So Lizzie, go ahead. What's up, Lizzie? Oh, can you hear me?

We got you. I got you. I am so grateful. I've been waiting to hear you discuss this trial. I actually spoke with you like about a month and a half ago. I was the girl that brought up the movie you narrated, Divorce. Oh, yeah. Divorce Corp. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I had every plan of being here every day. And not to make this too dark, but my my father passed away of COVID-19, which is totally insane in New York City. He was vaxxed, boosted, all of that. It's a very shocking thing.

So anyway, so Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, in my opinion, are involved in something I call a relationship. That's what I would refer to that. Yeah, we would agree. We would agree. But you know what it makes me think, Lizzie? i did want to talk to robbie about it which is you know our fittedness in relationships and why we pick the partners we do because it's it's often the sickest part of ourselves that is attracted to the least healthy part of another person. 100,000%. And, and so this is, um, I want to just tell my story

briefly, like, um, and, and I, I just, the idea of, I'll explain what I've been doing for the past few days. So why this is so crazy and amazing that I'm able to speak to you both right now, Dr. Ludwig and, um, you, Dr. Drew. Um, so I had a very young age, unfortunately, uh, got involved in a relationship, um, and had a child, um, with a, I didn't even know the word, uh, narcissist. I think I said that the last time I spoke to you at the time, I only knew of it as like narcissistic, like, you know, vain, not lacking empathy. Also, I just want to say that these cluster B personality disorders, um, and that's narcissism, borderline, you know, yup. I actually think this is sort of the problem. They cause a lot of trouble for a lot of people and i do agree there's like a line of like yes of course i have empathy but they are like

like even from trump to putin to you know i suspect that these people do have cluster b personality disorders and they're they they are can really harm other people yes um and and even people would have like substance abuse disorder or other little things, and they seem to find your weaknesses and will really emphasize them. And they can be very powerful. Yes, very effective. And they can really get into situations of extreme power. So, Lizzie, Lizzie, let me tell you one thing.

Let me just tell you. You know, I was working in the psychiatric hospital when the Cluster B sort of pandemic emerged. So I watched the admitting sheets going from all the different personality disorders to clustering around Cluster B all of a sudden. And that happened in the late 80s and early 90s. And then by the mid 90s, only Cluster B came into the hospital. It was really very striking. And what I noticed was all the borderlines came in with a minimum of 20 lawsuits under their belt. And so that is the evidence of people with cluster B using this system,

our system, to be cuddled, to punish. And it's not just borderlines. The sociopaths do it, histrionic now. And because we had a really pandemic of destroyed families and childhood trauma guess what we got a lot of this stuff going here i actually wanted to write a historical treatment on this and the only period of history that i could find that was similar was pre- revolutionary france and so i i've been saying for a time that i wanted to put a chapter together that about there was going to be guillotines. I just knew. I knew there'd be mob action, and now we have cancel culture. That's the modern guillotine. There's a great book by a guy named Dr.

or he's a lawyer and a psychologist. I think his name is Bill Eddy. He's written a couple books, and they're about the fact that this is a crazy statistic. 100% of people engaged in lawsuits, 100% of either one or both parties has a severe personality disorder. Courts know it.

The lawyers know it. They know that. They've caught up with it. I'm not willing to accept 100%, but they caught up with it and they've put provisions in place to limit some of the acting out but that now people have spilled out into the general society and are doing it all over the place

and so yeah i totally agree with you lizzie it's a thing um so here so here can i ask my question sorry i'm so sorry okay so in my particular case which has been going it's a custody case and it's been going on now for over a decade and my ex is an actor um in fact there is i can see from my window um a massive billboard of his show um yeah i mean how did that happen problem well because i live like in smack in the middle of Hollywood. But but but but just to the level of like, you know, success he he has and essentially what he's done. thought to have a custody evaluation done and that those people can be very corrupt as well and what came out in the cross-examination of of this custody evaluator who what did not have a phd was not even a member of the board of medical association she was just a charlatan uh she had suppressed the results of um the you know the i guess MMPI, those very long personality tests. Yeah.

Yes. That I believe also Johnny Depp and Amber Heard took that, that Dr. Curry referred to. And so she, so she, she, she focused on my ADHD. She didn't say anything about me in that regard, but she really glossed over my ex and his now wife's personality. So my, his, his wife now had four or five questions out of the normal range. And his results, which she concealed, were this. Deception detected.

No conclusion could be made one way or another. I, like, what? That's, sorry, narcissist narcissist it's so hard to know it's it's it's it's what it is strange it is what it is it's no you can't conclude it literally it is what it says it is you can't right well so here's here's my my question okay or my so get to elizabeth i'm gonna put you back in the audience. So go ahead. So Amber Heard made this big point about, you know, I represent all women who have been abused and this and that. And what struck me about the whole thing is that for 11 years, I have just been trying to find somebody that will help me with my case of a person that has a narcissistic injury by me and it's just, he's been withholding my kid.

I mean, he stole my kid. And so the thing is, yes, they're famous and they have access to all this. But if you're just a regular person, you don't have the access to get to bring in experts or to even have somebody to represent you in a civil case because you're not entitled to a lawyer and i that that is my struggle so i've been like looking at youtube all these lawyers maybe one of them will help me um that's the that's kind of a an issue i think

as well i agree it is i'll let robbie let's let robbie react here but i i it's horrible when both parents are taken away from either parents take away from a child that's awful yeah I mean listen I work with patients who it's more divorce cases where they will say that

they really believe that women are not treated the way they should that kind of their belief but when it comes down to the actual legality that they may not benefit because there's something male voice or how they present themselves that is heard louder and clearer. You know, and listen, I wish you the best. I hope you get the right attorney and the right support for yourself because this may be a marathon rather than a piece of pie.

Well, it already is, has been for her. Yes. It's 11 years she says it's been going on. But I hate to distill this down to a male-female thing. I think it's about money. I think it's about money. think it's about money if you if you can if you afford to over yeah if you can overwhelm somebody with buying a bunch of defendants and attorneys and all this stuff you just that's the way the legal system works you

can overwhelm people by spending more money and i i'm fearful that that's what she's talking about here and that is really so sad. And maybe Robbie speak to how it ruptures the child. They, they, you know, I don't care how, what's going on with mom. When you pull the child away from mom, that is bad times. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, hopefully somewhere along this process, um, you know, two people can really understand that a child just wants to have a relationship with both parents. And they want both of their parents to be able to co-parent together because it's very traumatic for them. And they will internalize if they're told that one parent is bad and they don't have access to them, they will internalize that and feel that they are bad as well.

So more education out there. I would recommend you getting the right support for yourself through advocacy groups, and stay in it and continue to tell your truth. Do you have any specific advocacy groups? I hate to put you on the line for that, but there's got to be stuff out there. Yeah. There aren't coming to mind, but I'm sure if you Google and look for

parental alienation groups, that can be tremendously helpful. And I know that there are documentaries being done on the pain that happens when one parent is alienated from their child by the other parent. And look at that. See if that could be a helpful resource for you. Okay. And this is Boom Green. Good idea. That is a good idea.

Just so hard. I know. I know. You're right, Dr. Drew. This is what Lizzie was talking about. Go ahead. Yeah. No, it so hard. I know. I know. I know. I did a documentary about this. That's what Lizzie was talking about. Go ahead. Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, money is a real factor here and we see that, you know, the, the brilliance of Johnny Depp's team and how they understood the case and how to seek a truth. And ultimately, I think watching cases is good because we want to continue the conversation. How do abused women or men get a chance to tell their story and be heard? And the truth, when you share the truth, then you are not defaming the

other person because the truth is the truth. And what people may need to do is document their truth and have advocates also provide support. But as long as we are continuing the conversation about defamation and abuse women or men not being silenced, we are moving forward. As long as we can have a conversation, it doesn't even matter. It's even better if there's disagreement. Then we could really understand the layered issues that we're dealing with and how does one find the truth when it's challenging or it might be challenging to prove or it might not be you might have to kind of realize you know somebody's blacked out somebody's distorting we may not get the truth the truth is i just found it astounding that he would he would pay all this money to take it to court you know and fight her because it is

very very expensive. Hey, Dr. Drew. We've experienced that ourselves and we never were able to sue. We wanted to, but we couldn't. And then he put himself out there. Sometimes it's not worth it. Yeah, but it's just amazing.

The court of public opinion, Johnny Depp played it right because whether he lost or won in the court of law was almost irrelevant. What he showed is he has star power and fans that are willing to come out and support him. And if you follow the money, that equals movie deals. The movie bigwigs might have felt, he can't do movies anymore because, you know, of all the information, all of his issues. But now he's bankable again. And so he can make all of that money back very easily because he chose to air everything.

It's interesting. Josh, what's going on? Hey, Dr. Drew. I have some ideas that I thought I'd just comment on or ask a question about. Even though they were fighting in court and you see them in court, I picked up something from Amber that I wanted to say. And that is she seemed wrapped up in him, even though they're fighting. And so when you see that, you obviously go to weakness, mental weakness, codependency, love addiction, whatever that is. But I feel like she is still wrapped up in Johnny Depp.

You know what, Josh? It's actually what you've just laid out is a rather profound statement. And I think you're 100% right. And Robbie is the perfect person to talk about this. So, so give it a second here and let me have her go ahead. I mean, it's a really interesting observation, right? It is. And, um, I think they both are invested in having a negative relationship with each other because if they weren't they would let it go so they both have an investment in staying attached and they can only stay attached in a negative way and maybe right now well let me stop i want to stop you though but but you

you pointed out already how johnny depp had a secondary gain in all of this that he played perfectly right and be able to get back in movies and things like that. She doesn't have that secondary gain. Her only gain is staying attached, as you say, in this pathological way, in this dance that is so sick. But for a borderline, that's preferable to losing somebody. That's one of the really serious problems with borderlines. They can't let go. They can't do it. Right. Right. Cause that would be abandonment. So negative attention is better than no attention at all. And maybe in her mind, the fact that, I mean, financially it might hurt her, but she may feel he really also wants to be with her on some level. And I don't know, Dr. Drew, do you think maybe at one point they might make a movie together when they're older and they look back on this and decide to forgive each other?

I hope not. Because I don't think that's possible. But I'm sure it would be an interesting marquee. In other words, people would be fascinated by it. The insurance policy would be huge. So yeah, insurance would be impossible. What's up, Josh? the insurance policy would be huge. It would be impossible. For me, like, for Amber, the first thing, I'm not a psychologist, but I like to pretend to be one.

But when I look at Amber Heard, the first thing I would want to do is, how can we get you out of the enmeshment with Johnny Depp? Yes, that's right. To start focusing just on your stuff. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly what you would do that's one that's impossible i mean that's so hard to do i mean it's really really hard it's really hard

that's right and and then that's and that's and that's empathic to understand that that is so hard for somebody like do you think that because it was so traumatic she can't let go or so is there a trauma bond in addition yeah yeah um yeah probably right robbie what do you think um yeah i'm sure that's a component of it and and just the reality of when you're sued you have to think of the other person you know you can't get rid of them and there's this fantasy that somehow the court of law um will reveal the truth so and will reveal the truth and will resolve the issue. And we know that's not the way it works, even in divorce cases, right? The judge can't fix an issue just because people get divorced.

It doesn't mean that they don't have contact or some kind of connection together. So it's really interesting. Yeah, it is. And Caleb is putting up here a lot of comments from people, Susan, to your point, that some of the beauty involvement here is starting to kind of play out and where people are saying they have trouble being taken seriously. Right, exactly. So is it because they figure you're sort of given so much because you're beautiful? What does that come from? what do you think that is you know i think it's it's on a case-by-case basis but i maybe it could be a little bit of envy right because women who are beautiful have power

and if they don't know how to use it to their advantage then that's not no there you go i think you're right i think that's right that goes on yeah i think that's it and bed. No, there you go. I think you're right. So there's a lot of blaming that goes on. Yeah, I think that's it. And explain, I'll let you talk in a second, Kayla, but I want her to shine a focused light on, because I'm not, everyone gets the idea that that's envy, that the blame, I get it, but explain how that's envy. So what do women want? You know, want to be valued and appreciated and love and beauty is associated with that,

right? The more beautiful you are, there's the assumption that you're more lovable or you have more options or you have more power and more seductive abilities. And if you're not using that correctly or if you're misusing it, then you deserve to be punished. There's, there's a blaming because there's this idea, well, you're so beautiful, you shouldn't have these problems. But I could tell you, I've met some of those beautiful women in the world. That's what I was trying to say earlier. Yeah. Yeah. So Susan, I think that's it. No, it's true. And you true and you know it I mean I knew a bunch of

beautiful women and I I saw that it's like you aren't taking seriously and it's not not taking seriously you think about it it's you're missing or it's like you kind of deserve it right it's that if I looked like you I wouldn't let that happen to me or I would behave differently right and that's envy that's that's fault. That's a gross emotion. That's disgusting. You deserved it. It comes out as you deserved it. It's really more you're misusing something I wish I had

and I wouldn't misuse it, which is nonsense. And then there's also beautiful women aren't taken seriously for being intellectual either at times. Yes, I think that's true. And maybe you're making this up. That didn't really happen. Maybe, maybe. Caleb, you had to say something there. Oh yeah. Just something brief, which I hope doesn't come

across in the wrong way, but it's something that I had to learn with my wife. My wife is, you know, if you've seen photos of her, she's very attractive. She's a very beautiful woman. And I fell into that same trap where I would always question whenever she would complain about things. I'm like, well, how can it really be that bad? Like you're, you are like in my head, I'm imagining that she can't possibly have problems. That's why I seem like, I feel like I understand what Susan is saying here, where it's like, it was my natural reaction, even though I loved her for a very long time until she explained it to me that this has been happening all her life, that people always assume that she never has problems and that all of her problems are diminished and much lower because they just think oh well she got she has this lucky genetics to be beautiful

and so everything must be easy for her and why would she complain about anything at all i think i think people do the same they do that same math with money and fame exactly fame but he gets the same that's true that's true a lot of money involved here too but at the same time at the same time i do agree with a lot of the people that are commenting that are saying that yes that that might be true but it may not apply so much to this situation with amber heard and johnny depp because they it was more of a money thing a money and power thing for them because they're both stars. It kind of went more in that direction.

They were both in the shitter, though. They were both having trouble. But anyway, we don't know. We aren't there, to be fair. I remember, too, in a relationship, at the end of the day, it just ends up being two people. It doesn't matter what the outside world sees. It doesn't matter the money. Those things are part of the picture but at the end of the day you're just with another person another flawed person and they get a flawed person and um that's right things play out

would you want to hang on how everybody a little flawed well everyone is a little flawed? Well, everyone is a little flawed. Yes. Florence Henderson's husband was a therapist, a psychotherapist. And years ago, I spoke to him and he goes, oh, no, no, you're right that the sickest attracted to the sickest part of somebody is sort of what happens in relationships. But if you have process, that's what makes relationship exciting and interesting. So it's not just we all have our stuff, but you've got to be working on it in the context of keeping the relationship as healthy as possible, or it will. And again, if you come together with too much stuff, it always unravels if you're not getting a lot of treatment. Yeah. The healthier you are, the better chance you have

at being with a partner who's healthier for you you need to do the work even before you enter into a relationship ideally very true i think susie would say something okay i'm thinking about something like yeah when you're talking how josh was saying how she's like enmeshed with him or whatever yes but um i think about like how if I don't like somebody now, I can just walk away. I can just say, okay, gone. Friend. Friendship gone. Not dealing with this. Don't like this behavior. But when I was in a relationship that was abusive, I could not stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop thinking about him. I couldn't get away. Like, it took years for me to just get him out of my head.

A lot of therapy, too. But just how, there's something, explain trauma bond. Because, you know, you're explaining how bad Johnny Depp was. And she's really enmeshed with him. And she could have anybody else, you know. She could move on. And he was her. You know she could move on and he was her but he was her too so they both were drawn to each other and both had traumatic backgrounds

and to me it's so interesting because johnny would talk on stan that his mother was the meanest person on earth. And he finds Amber who was treating him really mean and cruel. And yet this was the woman who he married. He had his children with another woman that he never married that he would describe on interviews as she's such a good mother. So it's almost like he had a certain kind of awareness that he wanted to have his children with a healthier person. But there was something exciting about Amber because it's repetition compulsion, right? We're drawn to what's familiar and we want to repeat it and get it right. But it's like Casablanca, right? The more you watch it, it doesn't change the ending. It's the same ending that's frustrating.

And so it sounds like that's a little bit what happened in this relationship. She had an abusive parent. He had an abusive mother. And they were off to the races. Susan, does that relate for you? Or are you really just talking about trauma bonding per se? I've never heard of trauma bonding. Oh, you've heard of that no i mean i've heard the word but i haven't heard the description of it what it somebody wrote on here two people working out

their dysfunctional family dynamics from their childhood that's everybody that's what everybody does that's all humans but but i think like when you're really when you fear for your life when somebody like almost kills you and you you have to fight for your life and you it's hard to get away i don't know what it is it's like it's the it's the repetition compulsion you're going back and repeating also the seduction these people can be tremendously seductive and it's often a cycle sociopaths you know but the Yeah. So they, they say the right thing. They know how to be a supportive partner at times. And I think the person caught in that trauma bonding or with an abusive person, um, you know, there was this, I always thought like when I wrote my book about

marital homicide, I was like, did these people unconsciously, were they suicidal? Did they really want to die? And they just married somebody who did it for them. And I found out that was not the case, that in some cases, abusive relationships is based on a naivete, only seeing loving relationships and thinking that you can turn somebody and make them healthy and that you can fix them. And, you know, there was this, you know, cycle of seduction that would take place. And I think too, a lot of people can't get away because they do fear for their lives because their lives are in danger or they're financially abused and they don't have any means to get away. So there are lots of different reasons. And it's the same kind

of bonding that goes on in any extreme situation. That's why a band of brothers in a military operation are all bound together because they were in these extreme situations together. And that has a way of bonding people, cementing people in ways that they don't get other ways. And so you have all these things going on, Susan. Does that make sense? No. No?

Yes. No? Am I interrupting something? Yeah. Are you something? Yeah. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm good. You just suddenly terminated this conversation. What's going on?

I feel really bad. Why? I didn't hear what you said. Okay. What I said was that Robbie was talking about how sometimes it's just being naive and feeling like you can fix people it was and i said that it's also the kind of bonding that people get in extreme situations like people in a war together that glues them together when you have a near-death experience around somebody even if they're the source of it right you that you

still get bound to them right and so it's this conflicted thing they're the source of it, you still get bound to them. And so it's this conflicted thing. They're the source of the terror and they're the source of everything you want at the same time. So it kind of feeds on itself. Yeah, I'm feeling a little queasy thinking about it. Okay. So that's why you're ignoring us? Yeah.

Okay. Had enough? But thank you. Okay. You can go see Robbie. Let's talk about screens and help with under-eye darkness. It's getting too intense over here. I'm all for that.

Let's use my beauty for a while to entice. No, I really appreciate it. I get it. What she said, I did hear. Yours, I, okay. I just hope we're not, I don't like to personalize everything in a show. No, but I-

No, but it's interesting. But I, but I, but what interests me is how, you know, I always wonder why people stay together when they're in these horrible, toxic relationships and how it can get this bad and how a woman doesn't come out with any abuse during the time it happens and waits. And then when they do,

they have to go back and prove it. It's extremely confusing. They don't see it. When you're in it, you don't see it as much. You kind of talk it away and say, oh, he had a bad day or she had a bad day. And only afterwards, when you begin to look at your life more objectively, can you see some of the behaviors that were really off, that you didn't notice while you were in it, in part probably due to survival and protection. Or you have somebody explain it to you, like Dr. Drew, and then you go, oh, wow, I can't believe I was doing that.

That's right. But also, it's extremely confusing for humans to have the person that they are attached to to be the source of the distress and the satisfaction, you know what I mean? The good and the bad coming from one person. It's extremely problematic. How do you resolve that? You can't really. You get out or the person changes it's just that that's it those are only two choices really yeah but for

some women it's too late they don't get out and then they're dead that's just the way it goes you know that's what's sad and there's and there's not really good protection for them either which always has bothered me but that's another show there we could do some with some of the domestic violence people there is stuff out there well yeah like you're really you're really beautiful and you you call the police and then they go we can't do anything and then the next thing you know you're dead because they don't trust you oftentimes people don't get out when they should and that's that's the hard part and then some men are also abused too i know that and i know that women can, you know,

cause a lot of grief for men when they don't do anything. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's a tough situation, you know, these relationships. It's really sad. I've been there, so I can totally understand it. I got really lucky. I met Drew and he explained it to me and then the rest was history so i got yeah go find yourself an internist he got lucky i did he saved my life i'm pretty sure he saved my life a few times now so i um oh you owe me that's good so you get the good talk about that. Yeah. Wow. Maybe just in the present moment. It could be, it could be, it could be a present moment.

I'll take it. Yeah. I'll take the present moment. That's so funny. Well, Robbie, thank you for spending some time with us again. Bite size is the podcast.

B Y T E S I Z E. The website is dr. Robbie Ludwig, Dr. Robbie Ludwig. Make Haley. Can we put, There you go. There's her podcast and her website and everything. Thank you. Check it out. You see why

I've been connected, Robbie, for many years now. We've been doing stuff for a long time. Oh, I know. Hopefully, we'll keep doing so. Stay in touch, and I'll come maybe do your podcast, okay? I would love that. I would love that. So we'll make a date in the future.

Fair enough. Thanks, Robbie. Thank you. And thank you all for listening. God bless you. Listening and thank you all. Susan, thank you for telling your story. She's so smart.

She's good. She's a smart one. PsyD. PsyD is a very good training. Yeah. I love PsyDs. They're clinically so astute. When I was freaking out about the guy who sanded the floor, left the plastic off the wall, and now there's a coat of dust on all my furniture in the living room, she showed sympathy to me,

and I felt better. Who showed sympathy? Robbie? Yeah, she was great. Her voice was very calming and and then she said why don't people do their job right i go i've been saying that for weeks right no but she's not she's really nice i like her i'm glad that um michelle set that up and we appreciate you guys on restream and over on rumble and it was a good we we had a really good um good week group of people here today. I'm really happy with the shows getting a little bit of traction. Tell a friend, share if you care.

We love your comments and even the crazy ones. But we appreciate everybody on the stream for making the show what it is. And we're happy to take guest recommendations. If you have people who would like us to go book, we are happy happy to consider it so send that at contact at drdrew.com uh don't forget after dark and don't forget the adam and drew podcast these things are out there all at drdrew.com and uh we will wrap this show up and see you again on tuesday at three o'clock as it stands so tuesday at three o'clock are we we're not doing monday uh no i can't do monday okay no can't do it but but we could do and we could do just a a dose tomorrow if you wanted to

no we're not doing it you're you're doing it no i'm not doing it okay okay so yeah the next thing i do is i don't even remember how to well actually i could do i don't know we We have to ask our producer in Alabama. I could do 1.30 on Monday. Caleb, Monday you want to try to do something? Just an Ask Dr. Drew? Let me ask the baby. Let me check on that. All right, we'll think about it.

Okay, the baby will let us know. We'd have to be early, and we'll just do Q&A. Yeah, we like the Ask shows. Everybody likes to get on these shows. Okay, we can think about that. We want to take more callers since it's called Ask Dr. Drew. Okay, fair enough. And everybody, we'll see you either Monday or Tuesday,

depending on how we schedule ourselves. Keep an eye out for that. Sorry about the live scheduling. Ta-ta. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky. As a reminder, the discussions here are not a substitute for medical care, diagnosis, or treatment. This show is intended for educational and informational purposes only.

I am a licensed physician, but I am not a replacement for your personal doctor, and I am not practicing medicine here. Always remember that our understanding of medicine and science is constantly evolving. Though my opinion is based on the information that is available to me today, some of the contents of this show could be outdated in the future. Be sure to check with trusted resources in case any of the information has been updated since this was published. If you or someone you know is in immediate danger, don't call me.

Call 911. If you're feeling hopeless or suicidal, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255. You can find more of my recommended organizations and helpful resources at drdrew.com slash help. Give me another drop, just so I know what ammunition you have there to sort of throw at me. Bladder full of cum. Oh, that's good. Give me another one.

You want more? Yeah, I do. I wonder what the hell's out there. Penis is a sensitive organ. True. True. It is. Yeah, it is.

That is medically accurate.