Ask Dr. Drew - Kevin Bass & Dr. Kelly Victory on DEI, “Woke Medicine” & The Loss of Ethical Norms In Science – Ask Dr. Drew – Ep 333

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

Kevin Bass PhD was suspended by his medical school after his Tucker Carlson interview and a public apology for being “wrong about lockdowns and mandates.” He joins Dr. Kelly Victory to discuss DEI, “Woke Medicine” and the loss of ethical norms in the medical field. The medical student says he was harassed by his own school with “wanted-style fliers everywhere in the medical education building, which were circulated among the student body, stigmatizing me and my family.” “There was no hearing. No presentation of evidence. No cross-examination of witnesses. No credible appeal process,” says Kevin Bass. He describes himself as a “former Branch Covidian, now Team Reality.” Kevin Bass has bachelor degrees in medical anthropology and biology from UT Austin, a master’s degree in immunology, and is currently an MD / PhD student. After a “bad brush” with modern medicine when he was a child, Kevin Bass decided to change the practice of medicine from the inside by becoming a physician himself. “Only a serious commitment to science itself is sufficient, and even that too will likely fail someday,” says Bass. “If only we could adopt the proper lifestyle, nutrition, and food system, we could prevent many diseases and solve many of modern society’s problems.” Follow Kevin at https://x.com/kevinnbass. Read Kevin Bass on Substack at https://CovidCommentary.substack.com and https://KevinBass.substack.com 「 SPONSORED BY 」 Find out more about the companies that make this show possible and get special discounts on amazing products at https://drdrew.com/sponsors • PET CLUB 24/7 - Give your pet's body the natural support it deserves! No fillers. No GMOs. No preservatives. Made in the USA. Save 15% at https://drdrew.com/petclub247 • GENUCEL - Using a proprietary base formulated by a pharmacist, Genucel has created skincare that can dramatically improve the appearance of facial redness and under-eye puffiness. Get an extra discount with promo code DREW at https://genucel.com/drew • PROVIA - Dreading premature hair thinning or hair loss? Provia uses a safe, natural ingredient (Procapil) to effectively target the three main causes of premature hair thinning and hair loss. Susan loves it! Get an extra discount at https://proviahair.com/drew • THE WELLNESS COMPANY - Counteract harmful spike proteins with TWC's Signature Series Spike Support Formula containing nattokinase and selenium. Learn more about TWC's supplements at https://twc.health/drew 「 MEDICAL NOTE 」 Portions of this program may examine countervailing views on important medical issues. Always consult your personal physician before making any decisions about your health. 「 ABOUT THE SHOW 」 Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Kaleb Nation (https://kalebnation.com) and Susan Pinsky (https://twitter.com/firstladyoflove). This show is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 「 ABOUT DR. DREW 」 Dr. Drew is a board-certified physician with over 35 years of national radio, NYT bestselling books, and countless TV shows bearing his name. He's known for Celebrity Rehab (VH1), Teen Mom OG (MTV), The Masked Singer (FOX), multiple hit podcasts, and the iconic Loveline radio show. Dr. Drew Pinsky received his undergraduate degree from Amherst College and his M.D. from the University of Southern California, School of Medicine. Read more at https://drdrew.com/about Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, the band is back together. Kelly Victory rejoins us. She is home with us again, and she'll give you an update on, really, on her health, on so much that's been going on. It's just, things continue to clarify themselves. Some of you may not have seen that clip we were just airing. That was almost two years ago, and boy, have things changed. And the things we were complaining about back then, now are axiomatic. Now everyone just accepts it. There we go. We're also joined by Kevin Bass. He is on Twitter at Kevin N. Bass, B-A-S-S. He originally started as someone who was very condemning of people like me and Kelly, and then himself, when he wasn't towing the line precisely to the letter, some people turned on him, and he started examining some of the assumptions and notions that were being slammed down his throat and thought, hey, something is very, very wrong.

And we're going to talk today with Kevin, who's no longer in medical school for really ridiculous reasons. He will be again soon, no doubt. We're going to really talk about perhaps what has gone wrong in medicine after this. Our laws as it pertained to substances are draconian and bizarre. A psychopath started this. He was an alcoholic because of social media and pornography, PTSD, love addiction, fentanyl and heroin. Ridiculous. I'm a doctor. Where the hell do you think I learned that? I'm just saying, you go to treatment before you kill people. I am a clinician.

I observe things about these chemicals. Let's just deal with what's real. We used to get these calls on Loveline all the time. Educate adolescents and to prevent and to treat. If you have trouble, you can't stop and you want help stopping, I can help. I got a lot to say. I got a lot more to say. you can spend thousands of dollars and dozens of hours trying to look a few years younger or you can skip all that and the hassle and go with what works genu cell skincare genu cell is the secret

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Say goodbye to those fine lines, forehead wrinkles, skin redness, even those dark under-eye bags. Women and men of all skin types, Genucel has got you covered. Order right now at Genucel.com slash Drew to save 50%, actually over 50%, and you'll get a free luxury spa box plus free shipping. That is GenuCell.com slash Drew, G-E-N-U-C-E-L.com slash D-R-E-W. Whoop. And I thought we were going to do Dr. Kelly's intro, the one we've had from... Caleb, help me with this. Are we going to air that when i introduce her or are we just going to bring her i don't have yeah you're gonna just bring her bring

her right okay well everyone knows who she is so kelly victor everybody welcome back hey great to be back we do good to have the band back together but uh i'll do my own intro yeah i i was thinking about it that intro is so perfect, you know, because it's, it summarizes exactly what you and I've been talking about for two plus years now, Drew, which is that in my mind, there is nothing in medicine that doesn't boil down to a risk benefit calculation. And the last thing I said on that intro was we are in uncharted territory here, Drew. And that's how I felt for the last two plus years that we've been doing these shows. And we remain in uncharted territory.

Every day what we are seeing is just unbelievable. I think uncharted is a kind way of describing through the looking glass, frankly. And today we're going to talk about speaking through the looking glass so is that bulgaria behind you or exactly as i said it's an undisclosed location in eastern europe that's what i'm calling it uh or or a really good studio backdrop you decide there you go fair enough uh but you know one of the things that before, some people listening to podcasts and re-airing of this thing did not see the little intro clip. We re-aired me and Kelly speaking with Jay Bhattacharya nearly two years ago. And it's just extraordinary the things we were talking about are now sort of axiomatic. I mean, people now understand, for instance, that six feet was a complete and

utter fabrication out of thin air. No, and Drew, this is really important because, you know, you and I make light of it sometimes, but I said from the very, very beginning of the pandemic, and I'm talking January 2020, I talked about the fallacy of masks to stop the spread of respiratory viruses. I talked about the made-up construct, and that's what it was, of social distancing. I talked about the damage that we've known for decades occur as a result of lockdowns. I talked about the fallacy of asymptomatic spread and on and on. And I was derided, ridiculed, censored, kicked off every social media platform, had seven different assaults on my medical license and had to defend myself seven different times in front of the medical board. And now fast forward, here we are in March of 2024, and it is now well established.

Anthony Fauci has said it. You know, Deborah Birx has said it. Rochelle Walensky said they've all come out and acknowledged, well, turns out social distancing was made up. They freely acknowledge they made up the six foot distance was based on not a lick of science. They acknowledge that the masks did virtually nothing to stop the spread of the respiratory virus. They acknowledge the profound learning losses, for example, that occurred as a result of

the lockdowns. So here we are. And rather than being contrite about these things, they instead have said, wow, you know, well, if we knew then what we know now, and I say, that's a bunch of hooey because I knew, I didn't say what I was saying in 2020, Drew, because I'm a really good guesser. You know, I said it because we've known these things because that's what the literature told us, because that's what the science, and the science is not Anthony Fauci, what the real science told us. And the problem is that these things that we did,

whether it's mask wearing or social distancing or lockdowns, weren't just an inconvenience. They weren't just a nuisance. They had profound impacts. They left a smoldering crater where our economy used to be. They had profound impacts on people's not only physical health, but their social, emotional health as well. We destroyed the lives and livelihoods of tens of millions of people with these ridiculous mitigation schemes that had not a chance in hell of stopping the spread of this virus. And so I think that we really need people to be held to account. Guys. Yeah, it's what's that hold for just a second we have to uh we have to give kelly her correct intro there's nothing in medicine that doesn't

it is the mandate public health to consider the impact of any particular mitigation scheme on the entire population this This is uncharted territory, Drew. Now I feel like I'm ready. When did you tape that? That was like 20, that was taped in. 2021, probably. No, before she was on the show. Yeah. Yeah, well.

But it's interesting. I don't have my skull anymore. I don't have, you know, poor Yorick is not in the backdrop. That's the only, my new backdrop. I don't have my, alas, poor Yorick is not in the backdrop. That's the only one in the backdrop. I don't have my, alas, poor Yorick. Anyway. But it's interesting when you, you know, we've been talking about mitigation schemes and how they wouldn't work.

But when you think about the history of what we went through, it was more bizarre than people leaning on mitigation schemes that, as you said, did not have a chance of working. We went from mitigation to zero COVID to stop, you know, eliminating COVID, which is insanity, just total insanity. And then, as you said, no consideration of risk reward. And that's the part that was egregious. That's the part that was so crazy to me because you could easily predict. And as you said, also, if we'd only known, look, you might have known if you hadn't crushed everybody who tried to raise their hand a seismic shift, Drew, in how physicians, our own colleagues, thought about this. You started hearing people say ridiculous things like, well, if we could just prevent one death, or if we could just eliminate COVID. You're thinking, wait a minute, since when has that ever been the goal? It isn't. We have never asked the rest of the public to suffer so that we can potentially prevent one death. There is no such thing in medicine as taking one for the team, for example. You have

the right to bodily autonomy. And all of a sudden, all of our colleagues left this and adopted this equity sort of model of health care. Very, very dangerous. And there was a seismic shift towards everything has to do with the community, the communal rather. And we abdicated. We asked people to abdicate control, to give up their civil liberties, to do things that had never been requested of them in the past for some sort of ethereal idea that we were going to eradicate this relatively inconsequential respiratory virus. Because we knew, again, of all the lies perpetrated during the pandemic, and that's a long list from

which to choose, the worst one perhaps was that we were all at equivalent risk when we knew from the very beginning that the vast majority of people had a de minimis risk from COVID. It was really just the elderly and the immune compromised and those people who are otherwise ill with chronic diseases. And so instead, we penalized the majority of the people who are healthy and well, and we asked them not only to give up their lives and livelihoods, but we really harmed their health in so many ways by, you know, start from not getting screening exams, you know, the number of people who missed their mammogram or their colonoscopy, or the people who just were too afraid to go to the ER

with chest pain for fear of, you know, they might, you know, contract COVID. So we really harmed people, harmed them. And we breached what I consider to be every ethical rule. And again, we get into this, the ethical rules of healthcare, which by the way, they don't even bother teaching in medical school. Well, that's what I want to get into it, Kevin. But before I bring him in here, so I want to get talk about the shifts in so-called bioethics and what we were trained versus what Kevin has been recently been exposed to. But how's your health? Update everybody on that. Great. I think most people who are watching probably know

I was relatively recently diagnosed with breast cancer. It was July of last year, fortunately, because I'm pedantic about my annual mammograms. It was picked up very early on a screening exam. I ended up having surgery within days of my diagnosis. I did 20 rounds of radiation. I was still on the show with you last fall during radiation. I did 20 rounds of radiation. Didn't miss a show, didn't miss a beat. But it's a relatively exhausting little process. And then I had to move, I moved physically over the holidays. So I really, I feel great. I am more and more disillusioned, I have to say, with the algorithmic sort of prescriptive way, things about medicine. There is no such thing anymore, really, as individualized medicine. And more and more physicians that I run into who are in

control of my own care really default to, well, you know, here's the protocol, you know, here's, here's what the, and what you read, what I read into that is, you know, here's what big pharma says you should do, Kelly. And as you, if you know anything about me at all uh i'm not uh i i rejected the chemo that they you know was suggested i rejected those things i'm going down um a different path with things like vitamin d and prolonged fasting and uh lots of reishi mushrooms and turkey tail mushrooms and lots of things so i did in part you know sort of what you'd consider to be the mainstream treatment, surgery and radiation. But I chose not to take what I consider to be toxic medicines that really do a hit job on your immune system, because I believe fundamentally that my immune system is my best chance of fighting this and making sure that I remain cancer-free.

Susan, interesting. She's taking turkey tail mushroom. Do you know the other name for that? Versicolor. Coriolis. Coriolis. There you go. I know one part of it.

That's right. We have a great sponsor for dogs, pets, and humans now, Kelly. You should know that. We can supply Kelly with that. Yeah, we can get you free shit. should know about. I do know about that. And again, this is, to be clear, these things I'm talking about, whether it's prolonged fasting, turkey tail and reishi mushrooms, vitamin D, these are not, quote, you know, snake oil. There is tremendous decades-long evidence that these things have a profound impact,

not only on the immune system, but on cancer. It simply doesn't make it into the mainstream journals, Drew, because the pharmaceutical companies don't stand to make a lot of money on it. Okay. This isn't snake oil. This isn't kind of some like one-off that I read, you know, in Women's Day or, you know, Reader's Digest that somebody said, you know, try these mushrooms. There are decades worth of data. And in fact, if you go to any of the big cancer treatment centers, primarily in Europe, if you go to Switzerland or Sweden, they will start you on all of these things immediately, including ivermectin, by the way, and fenbendazole and some other things.

These are so well established. And that's why, Susan, turkey tail mushrooms are in the formulations that they put together for animals, because they have such a proven profound impact on the immune system. Barsh just texted me that she sent you a package. Yeah, and Drew shook the bag, and Rex is running around this room sniffing to see if I have a cookie. Do you want me to throw it to you? Are those the dog cookies or the horse? No, those are the dogs.

Yeah, we'll give... Oh, he just ran out the door. Well, he'll be back. But anyways, we love them. I feed them to the dogs every day the other one's getting into it i know she's well you should start taking them yourself start eating them yourself yeah we have they have supplements as well that um we had christina ferrari on and she was diagnosed with cancer myeloma myeloma she was supposed to die in two years but she

she took these supplements and did stem cells. And it's been six years. Well, she did stem cells. She had a bone marrow transplant. Wait, I thought she said she did stem cells. Bone marrow transplant with stem cells. Okay. Well, but that's important to know.

All this stuff, yeah. It's complicated. But Kelly does, that's the point I just want to emphasize. Kelly doesn't do things lightly or without a great deal of thought and consultation, particularly with her own health. You should have seen how quickly she got that biopsy done after the nanogram came down. And doing it naturally to build your immune system is basically what they're saying these mushrooms help with. So I'm kind of buying it. Well, go ahead, Kelly.

For all the people out there, by the way, I mean, this is the truth. I do think in today's world, you've got to be your own advocate. When I had my mammogram, they saw something that they thought was suspicious. The recommendation was, it's, quote, probably nothing. Let's repeat the mammogram in six months, which would have been just a couple weeks ago. I said, NFW, how about let's put a needle in it and find out what it is. I don't not waiting six months. And if I had, I might have a very different story to be telling today because six more months would have gone by.

And that's a long time in the, in the life of a life of a new untreated cancer. So number one, I pushed for it. I got the biopsy done very, very quickly. And I wasn't willing to sit around and wait until I got my ducks in a row to have the surgery. I had my surgery five days later. And I recommend to you that if you do get it, it's no less of a shock and a wake up and a, oh my God, moment when you hear the cancer diagnosis when you're a physician. It doesn't make it any easier.

And so I would strongly recommend that you be your own advocate and get on the road quickly to get the first part done and then give yourself some time to figure out the rest. You don't have to buy into this idea that if you don't start chemotherapy tomorrow kind of thing, you've got time to figure it out. And I made a different choice, despite the fact that my oncologist was really promoting one course of treatment. I said, thank you. I've taken that under advisement and I'm going to take a different path for the time being, for the time being. And I think there are lots of resources out there that you can rely on other than just the mainstream oncology way to go. Well, let's get Kevin in here. Kevin,

let me get you some of his. Very proud of you, Kelly. Yeah, this is good to have you back. Kevin Bass, Kevin N n bass on twitter uh and again kelly of course is dr kelly victory on twitter um kevin has had just a crazy story um he uh went viral after saying scientists should admit when they were wrong about covet right truly radical position imagine that people admitting when they were wrong. No way. And apologizing and changing course, like shocking. He was resisting mandates and has some interesting observation about medical school.

He's a PhD, he was a scientist, trained in science prior to going to medical school. He was very concerned about people who were resisting lockdowns early in the pandemic and then started looking at some of these arbitrary decisions and came all the way over to the other side. So please welcome Kevin Bass. Welcome back, Kevin. Thanks for having me, Dr. Drew. So I guess where we wanted to hopefully start this conversation, first of all,

tell everybody how you're doing. I mean, this is the first time seeing you in a while. And last time you and I, we really just discussed your transition from thinking that everyone was bad, who resisted lockdowns and evil and wanted people to die to going all the way to the other side, where you were resisting a lot of things. Yeah, I'm doing well. This last year, since we last talked has probably been the craziest year of my life and I've had a quite eventful and interesting and colorful life. And so that being the fact, the case really says something I didn't expect

after I did speak out about lockdowns, especially or about COVID policy in general, I didn't expect for, especially if this is at the end of 2022, early 2023, this is when the culture was starting to shift uh i didn't expect for the response to have been so hostile to me within medicine as it ended up being uh it's it's quite a shock if you read uh the novels of solstitzen or or some of the other uh novelists who talk about tyranny or totalitarianism uh i you know it sounds crazy to people who haven't experienced it but i'm

afraid that uh we're creeping or maybe even uh accelerating in that direction in this society and it's very terrifying and and shocking for me to make that realization well kelly and i wanted to start with the idea of bioethics now kelly i'll let you frame it for him if you want about how we were trained in very rigorous bioethics and how that's no longer being taught. Something else is superseding that. Yeah. And so what I would say is I think the change, Kevin, and obviously Drew and I are considerably older than you and considerably further in our careers than you are. So there has been a significant change in the approach in medical schools. I would submit, however, that this long predated COVID, and I'll talk more about that later,

but we see it now that COVID sort of brought it to everyone's consciousness. And I think in my experience, what I have witnessed is that there's been several things happening simultaneously. I think in my experience, what I have witnessed is that there's been several things happening simultaneously. One is a slow and insidious shift towards focusing on the communal versus the individual, a change towards where everything changed towards what is good for the group, what is good for the whole. You saw it with managed care. We need to be equitable with regard to our usage of funding. And all of a sudden, one of the core, if people look at the four pillars of medical ethics, the very first one is autonomy. Autonomy means you. You are not

responsible to anybody else with regard to your medical decisions. It is you as an individual. You have bodily autonomy. You have a right to make it, to choose or to not choose, to participate in any particular thing medically. We've abandoned that. We have pushed to the polar opposite where it's all what's good for everybody else, what's good for them. So that happened, and they really started pushing that in medical training.

And the other piece that was happening simultaneous to this, I think, is the don't, what I call, don't believe your lion eyes, that we are hit every day. We are just bombarded with what I see as fundamentally propaganda. I don't care if you want to say, you know, your car causes climate change, but Bill Gates's private jet doesn't. The economy is booming. You know, the protests were peaceful. You know, men can have babies. Whatever it is, they tell you something and they say it over and over and over again. And if you push back on that thing, you say, well, I don't really think the economy is booming. I mean, groceries, then you're sort of a heretic.

If you say you don't believe in climate change, you're a heretic. If you don't believe that men can have babies, you're a heretic. We will not tolerate that. You must believe this, even though it doesn't comport with what you're seeing. Everybody's dying of COVID, and you're saying, seeing everybody dying of COVID? But you are forced into that. And once they start doing that in something that goes under the bailiwick of what they're calling science, if they're calling that the fact, what do you do with that? And so start with, talk a little bit, you have a PhD. I assume you were trained in hard science, what we used to call science, which is now not what we call science any longer. So talk a little bit about your experience going from somebody getting a PhD to what you saw once you were in medical training. Well, Kelly, my story was I did the first two years of medical school and then i did a a longer phd uh and it was during

that phd period where covid happened and and i think a lot of the culture and medicine had been changing prior to that point but uh my cat my cat is is is uh choking or something so i'm i'm being a little bit distracted um Hairball. He's a mushroom. Get it a mushroom. So during the, things had been changing within medicine for years. I think starting, especially in the 2000s, I think that's when the shifts really started happening. And I think that started happening in the broader culture in general. I think it started happening in our elite and our professional institutions and the media and the legal system and public health across our professional institutions. I think we started seeing a shift, a political shift to the left, especially if you look at some of the objective data on donor, on political donors.

So, but I think whenever things really radically shifted like it was a slow build-up and then things sort of broke the damn broke i think that happened in the later half of the 2010s and so i was doing my phd during that period things were relatively normal during my first two years of medical school but whenever i got out of medical school when i went back so when i got out of my phd graduated went back to medical school things were completely different. And so I had gone in training as a scientist. And in fact, during much of my PhD work, I did a lot of misinformation debunking, I would, I would look for people on the internet who made claims that were maybe went beyond what the data suggested. And I would debunk them write these long posts about it. I became very well known for how rigorous and meticulous I was about this. And I had a very pro-establishment side of it,

almost, I would say, naively pro-establishment side, but I tried to be very evidence-based. And so I was very idealistic about the science, but whenever I first sort of woke up to COVID right near the end of my PhD, and then whenever I went back to medical school, I saw that things had changed dramatically. And what I think, from my point of view, one of the things that I've observed that's happened is that we once valued a wide range of different values or principles, like autonomy, like you're pointing out, moderation, rationality. And I think a lot of that's been replaced by a kind of left-wing fundamentalism uh which which uh emphasizes that uh uh the world is filled with oppressors and victims

and that it's sort of the job of the professional class of doctors to sort of help out the victims to elevate them and sometimes sometimes elevate them above everybody else because they've been historically victims this is sort of the basis of DEI. And I think this was the basis of a lot of things that happened during COVID is we thought, okay, people are dying from COVID. These are victimized people. So we have to emphasize this. If we can only save, if only one life is saved, it's all worth it.

So therefore, lock the whole society down to protect the vulnerable, the weak, sort of transform all the society and cater to that particular small group of people. And I think that that has been the sea change within medicine, sort of the shift to the left, sort of the shift to this victimization mentality. And the problem with that is that when you have this one single principle that everybody has to follow, then all the other principles become sacrificed to that principle. So then science becomes sacrificed to that principle. Facts become sacrificed to that principle because all of the science, all the facts have to match that narrative of the world. Autonomy becomes sacrificed to that principle. So you have this

obsession with victimhood, with protecting the vulnerable, catering to them without taking into account the myriad other variety of factors that you have to take into account for in the pandemic. So for example, in the pandemic, the economy is also very important. Social life is important. People's mental health is important. Their friendships are important. And so I think that ideology has, by subordinating all those other principles principles also decreased competence in our society. Because if you are promoted, or if you are allowed to stay within medicine, or if you are able to get a leadership position based upon your sort of blind adherence to this, or maybe not so blind,

maybe you'll talk out the side of your mouth on one issue and then sort of understand the truth in private. If that becomes the criteria for career advancement, then people who have integrity, who may care about the truth, those people are not going to advance as much. And the people who may have less integrity or may simply speak the party line, but may not be necessarily as competent are the ones who get promoted. And so we end up with a society, not only will we subordinate all these other values that are important to human life, but we end up in a society where we're promoting incompetence and corruption. And I think whenever society becomes ideologically corrupt in that way, competence becomes corrupted as well. So it really has these knock-on effects all across society that

are extremely disturbing to me. And I know I've just gone into kind of a rant about this, but it's just so disturbing to me. No, no, no. Hold on. You actually did not rant. Both Kelly and I are in raptures.

We like rants. But this is not a rant. This is a very systematic review. And I think we have a lot to hang on there. Kelly, I'll let you comment. Then I have to go to break and then I'll come back to you, Kelly, because I know you've got a ton of follow-on questions. I do and I will tell you it's not a rant because you need to look no further than

what has happened in other totalitarian tyrannical societies. This is exactly what they do. They say, this is the narrative. This is the platform. This is what you must believe. And if you deviate from that, we will shut you down. We will crush you either literally or figuratively. And if you look at what happened during the cultural revolution in China, it's no different than what they're doing today. They may have physically, literally assassinated or executed physicians, but how is that? It's really not much different from crushing you, kicking you out of medical school, taking away your medical license, kicking you off social media, giving you no voice. It is fundamentally the same thing. It's saying we will not tolerate a deviation from what the state has said is the accepted narrative.

And we can talk more when we come back after the break about the stultifying effect that that has on the advancement of science. There is no advancement of anything. And it absolutely, to your point, Kevin, makes for a very, very weak, non-resilient society. It makes a society that's easy to control, but it makes a society that is at huge risk because it is not resilient. A hundred percent. And science the same. I mean, the whole discipline of how we use the scientific method gets adulterated.

But let's take a little break. We've got a lot to follow up with what Kevin just said. I thought it was not a rant because rants tend to have a way of wandering. I thought you made a perfect sense all the way. Kevin Bass, Kelly Victor, we'll be right back after this. You asked for it and the wellness company has delivered. The medical emergency kit replete with ivermectin, prescription antibiotics, and more, continues to fly off the shelves. We keep one here at home. And there are three new kits you need to know about, and more are coming. The contagion emergency kit was inspired by the high demand for the medical kits. In that contagion kit, you'll find ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, antibiotics, budesonide, and a nebulizer. And a must for your next trip is the travel emergency

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Don't wait. Order now to save an extra 10% and get free shipping at proviahair.com forward slash drew. That's P-R-O-V-I-A-H-A-I-R proviahair.com slash D-R-E-W. We are back with Dr. Kelly Victory and Kevin Bass. Kevin, of course, has a sub stack is kevinbass.substack.com, Forbidden Science. And as I said, you can follow him on Instagram at Kevin N Bass and on Twitter the same. My dog is here looking for more of those mushroom treats. But you'll see his head pop up here in a second, I think. But Kelly, before the break, we were talking about Kevin's statement

really is what it was. And the way he's laid out what he had seen is what it was. And he, the way he's laid out what he had seen and what he was, you know, it reminds me, do you guys know who John Rawls is? He was a philosopher that really started this whole theoretical frame of, you know, the,

the worth of a society was its ability to care for the most vulnerable. Even if it was, even if all of the social resources are reported to a single individual, that's what a good society would do. And it's just, again, it's just not even connected to reality to do that kind of thing. It'd be wonderful if that's how the world worked. It doesn't.

But go ahead, Kelly. I think you had some more stuff for Kevin. Well, I guess what I was going to say, it's actually what I said in my intro that you showed, my prerecorded intro, is it is the mandate of public health. And remember, the people who are at the helm of this debacle, and that's what it was for COVID, are all people trained in public health like I am. But it is the mandate of public health to consider the impact of these different, whatever mitigation scheme it is, on the entire population. The idea of even uttering the phrase, if we can save just one life, is preposterous from a public health perspective. Go ahead and play it. And that doesn't boil down to a risk-benefit calculation. It is the mandate, public health, to consider the impact of any particular mitigation scheme

on the entire population. I had not noticed the skull until now. As I said, alas, Floriorek, I knew him well. But truly, in other words, we should have been, they should have been, they had an obligation to consider what is the impact going to be on the economy? What is people's economic health? What is the impact going to be on people's spiritual health to shut down churches? What is going to be the impact on educational health?

And so on and so forth. And they didn't do that. They adopted this ridiculous idea that we are going to eradicate a particular disease, which is not what public health is about, or certainly not in a vacuum. The bigger issue, I think, is the one that Kevin and I were both touching on, which is the impact this has on society as a whole. If you want to have a society that's easily controlled, you, number one, put them into a state of fear. You numb them with drugs and alcohol and social media and things that keep them in a little box and keep them from thinking for themselves, you give them a prescribed thought list of

acceptable thoughts, acceptable ideas, and you absolutely terrify them that if they step outside that box, there will be severe consequences. As I said, whether it's literally being locked up, imprisoned, or figuratively. That makes for an easily controlled society. It certainly doesn't make for one that's resilient, however. In order to be resilient, I mean, this entire, our country was founded on a bunch of rebels. They were renegades. There were people who said, you know what, we don't like your dang ideas, and we're doing something different. We're stepping out of the box. You have a right or you did, you know, prior to COVID, you had a right in this country to be wrong. You had a right to go out and say something that was wrong. You know, I said many times during

COVID, if Galileo were alive today, we would still think the earth was flat because they would have shut him down. They would have said, no way. The novel ideas, the really remarkable ideas rarely come from the mainstream. They come from the fringe. It's the people on the fringe who come up with those ideas. And Kelly, not only the fringe, but typically if you go back to the history of Galileo, for instance, they're considered dangerous ideas, right? Right. Dangerous ideas. Right. He went at the very nature of mankind, where man existed in the universe, what God was doing here.

All that was challenged. And guess what? It was a good thing to challenge all those things with dangerous ideas. Kevin, I want to go back to you. One of the things that has come clean to me, come a little bit clear to me, or I wouldn't say clear, an issue that has come up

after talking to Brett Weinstein a couple of days ago, Weinstein, I beg your pardon. He was saying that he feels like there's a consolidating force afoot and it tends to be a force that hides things from the public. This whole thing that you're sort of chronicling, Kevin, to me was a shock. It was really a shock to see what happened to this profession that I've loved, that multiple family members have been in for multiple generations.

Very deeply disturbing and shocking to me. Do you have any sense of why this is happening, with the amount of enthusiasm it is? And is it just being so well executed that people aren't able to kind of push back and challenge and have alternative points of view? Yeah, I think that the reason is, and I don't know the exact cause, but the reason is, is that for whatever reason, up until about 2000, there were conservatives, there were liberals, or we call them left-leaning people now because we want to avoid sort of calling them liberals because we think classical liberals, but there were left-leaning people, there were right-leaning people, and they were roughly equally distributed in the institutions apart from the universities.

In the universities, you had a concentration of left-leaning people. It skewed maybe 80% left, 20% right. And then around about 2000, 2010, in the 2000s, you had a shift. Not only in the universities to become even more left-leaning, so it became not 80% left-leaning, but like 90% to 95% left-leaning. So it became not 80% left-leaning, but like 90 to 95% left-leaning. But then through all of society, it started to look like the skew of the universities traditionally, say from the 80s to the 2000s. And so the politics of all of the elite professional institutions, whether it's law, whether it's media, whether it's medicine, public health, artists, every white collar professional profession now skews overwhelmingly

left. And that's historically unprecedented. Whereas if you look at the blue collar occupations, say plumbers, electricians, people who I'm assuming maybe a large part of this is that uh they're not tied to corporations they're sort of independent and maybe that has something to do with it but there is more of a balance that remains in these uh professions and so that's where usually you have the trump voters and then but then in sort of all the professions that dominate the cultural and and professional aspects of society and increasingly in the government as well, it's starting to look like the old political skew of 20 years ago of universities, but it's across all of society. And so you ask the question, how is it that this is

happening? How does it seem so overwhelming? Is it just particularly well executed? I think it's, the fact is, is that it's ubiquitous. There's an organic coordination between people from all sorts of different professions that belong to the same sort of social class, these upper middle class, upper class, they all believe the same thing. So in unison, they're,

they're coordinating with each other without even needing to necessarily tell each other what to do or necessarily be commanded. Although to some extent they are also receiving uh you know some orders say for example fauci they have this enormous respect and and and and and they deference to fauci and now my dog is barking i started out with the cat uh coughing okay don't worry um not a problem and and so and so it's not coordinated in the sense of everybody's okay we're going to scheme together, rub our hands together.

They all share a common worldview without needing to even communicate to each other what they believe the good is. And they instantaneously can perceive what they think the good is. And that will match across all of these very powerful institutions, people across all these powerful institutions. So it looks coordinated. It looks very well choreographed, but it's not. What's choreographed and what's coordinated is the ideological takeover. And the question is, what caused that ideological takeover? And I can't quite understand it. I know that in the 1960s, the late 1960s,

if you think of the old radicals from 1968, a lot of those people who are far left, who are Marxists, who are in the new left, SDS, people know about some of this history, who were involved in those student protests, they ended up becoming professors. And it may be the case that those young people who became professors, it must have been the 80s and 90s, they trained the next generation. And that next generation is now the people who are part of leading these professional institutions. And so it may be the case that this is a sort of ripple effect from the late 1960s. The universities got taken over and then progressively, because the universities got taken over and the universities gatekeep for the rest of the professions, eventually after that happened, and then the rest of the professions got taken over. And this is what commentators like Christopher Ruffo call the long march through the institutions.

And this is a sort of neo-Marxist concept where they actually planned on doing this. They had the strategy, we can't take over society through economic means. We're going to take over it through cultural production. We're going to take over the universities. Then we're going to progressively take over the professional institutions. And it may be the case that this is simply a reflection of some long-planned thing that started in the universities and has eventually succeeded. And so now we have, I think, a fight on our hands if we want these more traditional values of autonomy and, dare I say, of rationality, of all sorts of other kinds of important human values and principles that are essential to the flourishing of human life,

essential to resilience, as Kelly pointed out. If we lose these values, if we become subordinate to these power structures, then we're going to lose that resilience. It may be up to us to now fight this and try to reverse course, which is what people like Christopher Rufo is doing now. It sounds like almost like I'm doing a, a big promotion of, of, of, of, of Mr. Rufo, but, uh, uh, he, he's a big inspiration of mine. And so, uh, I think what he's doing is very important. What's being done in Florida is very important. And so I think that's maybe part of the path because I think that's the only way we can reverse the situation. And so, yeah, anyway. Well, Kevin, you're- Go ahead, Kelly. Go ahead, Kelly.

I was going to say, I don't think there's any part of this that isn't orchestrated. I don't believe that it started in the universities. I believe the universities and the education system was co-opted by the elites. They were a pawn. They were the way to get this done very easily. What is happening to me is right out of the playbook of every tyrannical, totalitarian society. I don't care if you're talking about Mao Zedong, whoever it is, what happened in Nazi Germany is what I call the hateification of society, where the elites identify what they consider to be a common foe. In Nazi Germany,

it clearly was the Jews. During COVID, it was first the virus itself, and then it became anybody who wasn't in lockstep. It was the non-mask wearers, the unvaccinated. And the powers that be, the people at the top of the pyramid say, you would be able to get on with life. Your life would be good. You would be more financially well off in the case of what they said in focus on. We need to all focus on this enemy, the unvaccinated, the non-mask wearers, the Jews, whoever it is. And if it were not for those people, your life would be good. So it's the hateification, the absolute purposeful division, right? Driving a wedge. And as long as you have a you know, a third of the people who go along with the narrative, a third of the people who are kind of undecided and don't really know, it's easy for those two thirds together to gang up on the one third who actually has a clue and is pushing up

and back and saying, because the numbers are always on your side. The numbers are always on your side in that tactic. And it's very easy. And so I think they used the universities fundamentally as the cudgel to really get in this insidious way of teaching your children, of saying either, you know, if you want to pass, if you want to get along, if you want to advance, you will do these things. And I'd like to kind of shift or at least pivot into how the whole DEI and gender issues, how that has become part and parcel of this entire conversation as well. You've written, at least, or spoken about the whole idea of DEI. Clearly, in my mind, it has a horrific impact on the competence of our society. You know, when United Airlines is more concerned

about saying that they have more trans, you know, pilots than any other airlines, rather than they've got the most competent pilots, you know, when that, when the, you know, gender ideology or, you know, any of these ideologies, these, you know, this impacts politics. We're not talking about competence anymore. We're talking about ideologies that have really an undermining effect. So talk a little bit about how you see the whole DEI and gender component factoring in. Yeah. so I think DEI and the whole gender thing and COVID, they're all sort of symptoms of the same basic worldview. Again, there's a victim and then there's an oppressor. And I think to your point about authorities using these ideologies to gain power,

I think that's absolutely right. I think that there is some sort of coordination between the ideologues, whether it's an informal coordination or maybe even they're probably getting along together for dinner and even talk about these things informally as well. But there is a coordination between sort of the ideologues and people who are trying to get power. And I think that this ideology is a means to power because you are subordinating people's autonomy, you are supporting their resilience. And whenever you do that, they are easier to control. Zee Van Fleet said the same thing on the recent Tucker Carlson episode where she talked about

the, what was it, the cultural revolution in China. She said, you know, Tucker asked her, you know, why did people do what they did for the cultural revolution? She said the same thing that you did. It's because they wanted power. That was their mechanism, their method to get power. And so I wrote, I think two weeks ago, an article in the New York Post about DEI in medicine in particular. And again, it's all reflective of the same thing, gender, race, all these things. You take one group that you consider subordinated, one identity that you consider subordinated or vulnerable or weak. And again, to Drew's point, I think it is very important as a society. I do think it is very important as a society for us to look after the vulnerable, for us

to look after the weak, for us to care about people who don't have it as well as us. I think that is one marker of a civilized society, but that's not the only value. But what DEI does is they turn that into the only value. And so instead of teaching, for example, cultural competence, as they used to teach you guys, they're teaching something more like cultural humility, or even considering, they even teach people like Ibram X. Kendi, who says that we need to actively discriminate against white people, because we've historically discriminated against blacks. And so we need to equalize the playing field. The only way to do that is discriminate against whites. And then to sort of do this reverse racism, we're lifting up black people and we're sort of denigrating white people.

And so I think that's just incredibly harmful for health care for obvious reasons. A lot of our patients are going to be white people. And so we should be trying to give fair healthcare to everybody. Of course, we should have cultural competency. If we should understand where somebody's coming from, they may not have the means to afford certain medications, et cetera. They may communicate in different ways and being able to familiarize ourself with that will allow us to provide better care. Of course, that makes total sense. But then to then buy into this political aspect of it is completely unnecessary. It's unnecessary for the practice of medicine. And in fact, it's harmful. And it's what's being

pushed by the main accreditation organizations in medicine today. So the American Academy of Medical Colleges is pushing this. This is a core competency that all medical colleges, all medical schools have to follow. They all have to follow this DEI idea, which is a core competency that all medical colleges, all medical schools have to follow. They all have to follow this DEI idea, which is a politicized idea that's not related to these true cultural competencies. It's a political thing. So then the question becomes, why are they pushing politics, which comes from these political ideas from critical race theory, why are they pushing that in medicine? And the only thing that I can come up,

come up with is that these, these elites are literally trying to politicize medicine. They're trying to politicize doctors, you know, which is, which doesn't mean that's not. So it's about something else. I don't understand.

Honestly, a hundred percent. In fact, in fact, let me just take from there, Kevin, So it's about something else. I don't understand, honestly. the increased incidence of colon and breast cancer and the poor outcomes in colon and breast cancer in African-Americans was a result of, quote, inequities in the healthcare system. And I said, no, actually, it's a result of vitamin D deficiency. It's because African-American, Blacks, dark-skinned people are profoundly vitamin D deficient. And if you actually

corrected for vitamin D levels, you would find that outcomes between Blacks and whites are actually the same. It is not because of racial disparities in the healthcare system. If you make it about that, if you instead focus on that and focus everybody on correcting the presumed this made up racial disparity rather than correcting the one thing they could correct, the vitamin D level, you would actually have different outcomes. And again, you're getting people to focus on this ethereal sort of existential idea of racial disparity rather than on the actual science, which would show you that this is something that's very easily treatable. We have been undertreating it. Let's focus on that.

And so I could give you example after example where that is the case. It's absolutely the politicization of healthcare, and it's to our detriment. The quality of care falls when you focus on the hateification and on some thing over here that supposedly has to do with diversity, equity, and inclusion and all this other stuff. And it's all because doctors were poorly trained in gender ideology. And if they only knew that, no, we need to return medicine, healthcare, and science to those things which are not political. There should be nothing political about it. I agree completely.

Sorry. Sorry. I was just going to push back a little bit and say that, look, we all want to do what we can to improve whatever social ills are out there. But training physicians, learning medicine rigorously is hard. If you're going to actually train high quality physicians, I don't understand how you can focus on anything except training in the clinical sciences, because that is not just a full-time affair. That's an affair that takes up 20 hours a day where you're not sleeping at night.

And yes, to add another thing in that we need to be aware of and pay attention to, I'm all for that. I'm going to pay attention to all of it. But to do it so completely that you leave behind things like bioethics and autonomy and decision-making and risk-reward analysis with your patients and seeing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of a given case. I mean, you need to see,

if you're going to be an internist or a rheumatologist, certainly you've got to see hundreds of cases of lupus and scleroderma, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And they all have to be very, and they're very different and protein in their manifestations and how you approach them and how you treat them. You've got to have exquisite amount of experience with that. I don't know how you'd fill your head with anything else if you're going to be properly

trained, Kelly. Am I missing something? Well, no, and I think the thing is that if you're doing this in preference, if you're focusing on those things, Drew, all of this DEI stuff, everything, in preference to competence. If you take my example, go outside showed the same proficiency, the same competence in flying a 737. And we made a choice of all of these highly competent, equally, equally competent people and chose instead to hire the trans pilots versus the non-trans pilots. That would be one thing.

But that's not what they're saying. What they are saying is we focused, we made an effort, we put a stake in the ground that 50% or 100% or whatever they said of our new hires were going to be trans. They're not focusing on competence. They're putting something else above competence. And I fear that the same thing is happening in medicine. When you are putting, you are shifting the focus away from competence. Okay. I had somebody, one of the greatest insults I had early in my career, somebody said to me that I was the best female trauma physician they knew. I said, why would you say that? Why am I not the best trauma physician? You know, why am I the best female? I don't want to be the best female, you know, I want to be the best trauma physician. So, so, so screw you. Like, you know,

I mean, I, that's how I took it. I don't like, I, what is that? Well, Kelly, if it makes you feel any better, a tire just came off of a United flight from LAX. Caleb keeps putting the video of it. Here it is again. There is no confidence in the, in the airline industry at all. So why should they raise the bar? That's not the pilot's fault. That must have been a DEI hire.

That must have been a DEI hire, right? Well, that's really one of the, but by the way, guys, isn't that one of the most awful consequences of this is when something happens and people go, oh, it must because it was a DI. That's awful that people think that way. But they've created this in certain ways.

And that's really to everyone's detriment. We've got to kind of wrap up here. We could go all over the place where there's so much to talk about. Sorry, I was walking the dog. Here's a question that I asked to wrap with maybe. Drew, I asked Kevin this when we were getting in the green room prior to coming on. I said, with everything you've been through and with the unbelievable changes that have happened in healthcare,

with this massive shift away from core science and the egregious censorship and all of this. Do you still want to do it? Why do you want to be a doctor? What motivates you to go back and do this, go back into the cesspool? Yeah, as we were talking about in there in the green room before this episode, it's pretty simple. I may not believe in, well, let me put it a little

differently. There's many things that are wrong with the institution of medicine today, but I still believe in the ideal of medicine. I think medicine needs people who think differently. If I'm afraid, if I'm afraid to then assert myself and say, hey, look, things do need to change. I'm going to enter medicine anyway, then things aren't going to get any better. And in that sense, I'm failing the patients that whenever I decided to apply to medical school, to enter medical school, I'm failing the patients that I made an oath to serve. So I have to keep going on their behalf, even if the institution itself has its issues. We need more of our young physicians with that attitude, that's for sure. And Kevin, just so I understand your sort of history and evolution,

when you were a PhD student and writing all the debunking sort of notes, were you left-leaning at that point? Is that how you would have described yourself? Or were you just a classical liberal? How would you have described yourself then? Yeah, I would say throughout most of my life, I would even call myself a Marxist. I was far left all the way up till...

Yeah, I would say I was still far left. I don't know if I... What changed? How did that change? COVID changed me. Like, COVID really melted my brain. And whenever I said what I said... You know, honestly, I said what I said about COVID.

I thought it was going to be like any other thing I was debunking. Right? I thought it was going to be anything else. And then suddenly, like, I was just awash in people... In these comments. And, like, it different whenever as soon as i did it and then i kept pressing with it and uh because it wasn't like any other issue because it was so political in a way that i didn't understand whenever i started i had no idea at the beginning uh and because i essentially lost 90% of my friends immediately, and many people who had been my friends stabbed me in the back, betrayed me. It changed me as a person fundamentally.

It changed my identity. It changed the way that I understood politics because I understood something seriously sick was going on in our society because of the way that I was treated whenever I said these things. And so, yeah, as I said, I originally thought COVID was just going to be any other thing I was debunking. And then I realized I was in this really weird political space. And then it fundamentally changed my political identity. It was a very, it felt almost like I was disintegrating for like the first three months or so after I spoke out about COVID, wrote that Newsweek piece. And so, yeah, that's what changed me is COVID. That was my red pill moment. Well, I think, you know, I think

that's the critical piece is that I would tell you, and I've said from the very beginning, I find things that, you know, people in Hollywood, people have said despicable things or people have said hateful, heinous things over the years and during this pandemic in particular, but I defend their right to say them. Okay. The first amendment, the first amendment is to protect the people from saying those things that you find objectionable. That's what it's about. And the old adage that if you don't fight back, if you don't speak out when they come for the Jews because you're not a Jew, if you don't speak out when they come for the scientists because you're not a scientist, if you don't speak out when they come for insert whatever, no one will

be there to speak out when they come for you. And they will. And they did, Kevin. They came for you. You didn't expect it. It came out of the blue. And I am grateful that it was a wake-up call for you and that you have the humility and the insight to have seen it for what it was and to say, wow, we can't let this happen to anybody else. And I can disagree with people all day long. And Drew and I really tried with this show to model what, as I said, was the cornerstone, certainly in medicine prior to COVID, which is robust, vigorous debate, the ability to have differing opinions and to have a respectful debate with somebody who is diametrically opposed, for

example, to you on something about science or politics. And to have that, we are in a heap of trouble if we shut that down. So God bless you for speaking out and for having your, you know, your aha moment. We're happy to have you. Thanks so much for doing. Yeah, no, yes.

It's what I had to do. And thank you guys so much for doing what you do because by you modeling that, you're changing the world one up at a time, for real. Or one mind at a time, hopefully. But Kevin, we will continue to follow along on your little journey. And you're welcome back here anytime. If you have something specific you want to report, we're, of course, open to it.

Kelly, we've got to get you back in here on a regular basis. We'd love to have you. And great to see you. You're looking so vibrant and healthy. Thanks. Thank you. Somebody on YouTube said, oh, did she have some work done? That's how good you look. I didn't tell him. I didn't tell him. No, I did not. You didn't need to. The only work I had done was below the neck. And it wasn't by choice. Well, I know moving is like a death in the family. Moving is so stressful. It changes. It's so much work.

And we missed you. We know that you had a lot going on. And we appreciate that you took a break and got your stuff done. And your studio looks great and your lights. And it does look like you had some work done. But you probably have just been healthier. Maybe got a little extra sleep, hopefully. I think your lighting's good, too.

So that always helps. We're getting new lighting for Drew while we're out of town next week. It'll be fun to see if it— She's having lighting envy. I know. It looks good. All right. I've got to kind of wrap things up here, but Kelly, great to see you.

Thank you for joining us. Great to see you guys. We'll get you back very soon, I hope. You as well. Let's do it soon. Bye-bye. And upcoming, let's just give the guest list here for you really quickly. We are going to have on Tuesday, Corolla.

Wednesday, Fela had to drop out. We'll get a guest in there. Thursday, Christine Anderson. You remember her firebrand from the EU. Mike Benz to talk about his theory of the intelligence community. Dr. David Cartland's coming in. Warren Smith. Greg Lucchiano from FIRE.

Peter McCullough and Steph Colson in on March 27th. We've got a lot of stuff coming around. So do stay with us. And anything else from anybody? Caleb, Susan. in on the March 27th. We've got a lot of stuff coming around. So do stay with us and anything else from anybody? Caleb, Susan? Tuesday is, I think, at a slightly different time. Is that correct? I don't think so. With Corolla? Is it?

Oh yeah, 3.30. We still don't know the exact time. I think he kind of makes his own rules. So I'm not really sure when he's joining up. Well, we can always start the show and just pop him in at any time, but we'll figure it out. And then we'll have Kelly back when we travel.

She can host. It'll be great to have her with Peter McCullough when he comes around. Yeah, yeah. All right, everybody. We will see you on Tuesday around three o'clock Pacific time. Thank you for joining us. Ask Dr. Drew is produced by Caleb Nation and Susan Pinsky.

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